Lets bring them in first. First ladies first. Always first. Welcome, lady hubbard. Lady she is, of course mo talked about literary geniuses. Well, we have one here, author of last suspicious hold out the rib king and our novel, the talented. And shes won a lot of awards as. Well, thank you for joining us. Also here is ebrahim kendi. We got a lot to talk about. Patel from the beginning how to be an antiracist. Antiracist babys making all of the news. Hes here all the awards, bestsellers, blah, blah. Yes, maurice, Carlos Ruffin of the ones who dont say they love you, and his debut novel, the caste, we cast a shadow of definitely have a rousing conversation. Him and my birthday twin. Why i left him last. Mr. Literally we are twins birthday. Twins kevin powell, author of many, many books, including the education of kevin powell and his latest when we free the world. Is that our responsibility . Well, were going to talk about that. Let me welcome the panelists. Thank you. Thank you all for being here today. Thank you. Thank you thank im going to kick off with little baldwin because i think its important to do that from nobody knows name he writes it is complex feat to be an american americas history her aspirations her peculiar triumphs her even more peculiar defeats and her position in the world yesterday and today are all so profoundly and stubbornly unique that the very word remains a new almost undefined and extremely controversial so proper. Now, no one in the world seems to exactly what it describes and not even we motley millions who call ourselves americans what. Does it mean to be an american . Lets start and im going to start with kevin powell. Does god lack. Im gonna give that to you. Hi i was telling dr. Green, can i go last . I literally just moved from hotel room to hotel room, but ill go first of. Good, everyone. Good morning. Good morning. Good morning. Please repeat the question. Karen, great to see you as always. Good. See, you must be on the left coast because it is one something. Here we are. Im in this literally switch hotel rooms in 20 minutes. Yeah, i just asked. I asked a simple question. I think everyones going to be able to not answer it. What what does it mean to be black in american . Well, im an african person. Im a black person. And i didnt know that the first 18 years of my life and this is one reason why the work of this hybrid and brother kennedy and brother maurice are so important. I didnt even know that writers existed until i got to you know, i went to integrated schools in new jersey, shout out to our home state of new. My familys from South Carolina generation northerners. Certainly i knew i was black. My mother, you know, single black mother, single mothers raised me culturally, you know, but and she sent me to to get an education. She didnt know that going to those schools was actually brainwash she mean to hate myself, to hate my skin, my my lips, everything and literally in 13 years of education as part of being a a student k through 12, all learned was that black folks were slaves, that was a paragraph or two, and that dr. King had a dream and rosa parks didnt give up her seat. And so i think when we talk racism or the great term that that was made popular and necessarily popular antiracism for me, the first thing about being black is actually knowing that you are black and knowing your history being rooted it and understanding that you cant separate that the contributions of African People to this place called america. Im not comfortable just saying american i say africanamerican because i still feel it. So we actually respect people like justice, a. G. Brown, jackson until we actually stop meaning people to death, shooting them in their beds. George floyd and Breonna Taylor. Until we stop educating generations of people about who they are, we stop fighting a holistic history of of all contribution. This country. Its a fraught term to say america, you know what i mean . To just say america. No, obviously, when i travel overseas, i feel my americanness because is where im from in many different ways. But, you know, for me, im im with im with baldwin with w. E. B. Dubois. This is a double conscious that were talking about. And i think when you look at the work of our our esteemed panelists, this is what theyre talking about as well. You know, how do we navigate this thing called america, how do you figure it out . And so, you know, i just im im i mean, rooted in my africanness, in my South Carolina and is rooted in my brooklyn jersey ness. Thats what it means where my people are from, where im based out of. And once i became conscious, as we used, say, back in the day, woke in these times, you know, and then a commitment as a writer and activist throughout my 14 books, throughout my activism, whether it be a katrina relief, whether it be Voting Rights work over 30 plus years, you know, fighting for the for the empowerment and freedom black people is really simple to me and making sure as many of us as possible know who we are and that we actually move the kind of selfhatred that i experienced in my lifetime because of White Supremacy, because of racism, you know, toward love, toward love for ourselves, which is what baldwin was talking about, which is Fannie Lou Hamer and ella baker and dr. King and malcolm were talking about. Thats what it is for me. And then the bigger piece for america, also understanding at a certain point that americans know who they are. You know, im sure, the other panels will talk about it. And so what is whiteness what does that mean . You know, why are you fighting resisting conversations about antiracism . What is that about . You know, what have you internalized around the system of White Supremacy, around racism over this 400 years that you actually even want to have a conversation where you regard someone who may be different than you because of skin color, gender or gender identity or class background as your equal. So thats what it means to me. Are we going to get to this antiracist . Dr. Kendi so can you just just be patient . Lady hubbard you write they the land. They built the plants, asians, they fill the americas up with slaves. Sugar kept the workers distracted them from grief. And for 100 years later, you have your military invasions in mcdonalds. Happy your whole hos and preemptive strikes your oreos and reaganomics your captain crunch and koolaid. You weave all of the things that kevin said through your novel says oh well was a lot. He said a lot. Yes, he did a lot. That was great. Yeah. And i you know, i agree. I have similar and similar thoughts. I dont i mean, i agree with he just said it was also my and i went to like supposedly very fine schools and i never read black poet until i went to college also and its related i think its something i think about a lot and when you first asked that question thought about it was was recognizing how much of American Culture is black was created by black people and acknowledging and thats thats a part of it and i think its like a huge problem for for white people also like to admit how much of their identity you talking about white identity also to admit how much of identity is actually shaped by that. So yeah that that part of the book is in the story hes reading a book called how europe underdeveloped africa by walter rodney. Its like a specific reference and. I was trying to it was sort of in head and i was trying to sort show how it altered his perceptions of what was actually going on around him by what he was reading at that at that moment. So and thats from the last suspicious hold out. Everyone to get that book, please. Lets do that. I thank you for your response. We well, at least most of us watched couple of weeks ago the hearings. The the confirmation hearing for judge Clayton Brown jackson. And in that hearing, the senator from the great state of texas held up a bunch of books, as in dimock of the problems that face and confront our our children in schools critical race theory. And he rattled off a bunch of books among them how to be an anti and he had the audacity unmitigated gall to put posters big giant posters of antiracist baby as a problem because. We are infecting the minds of Young Children and babies to think of themselves as racist. Dr. Kendi ibram candie, those are your books. Those are your books. You went to twitter after that and you said, let. You said he tried and failed to distort, disparage and weaponize hashtag antiracist baby and that poor what the people what you saw through the nonsense and now these two books are again New York Times bestsellers that was a moment that you didnt ask for, but we were here for it. But before you get to that, what does it mean to you to be american black . Well, first, i just want to to to thank dr. Greene, of course, for her leadership. And i just wanted to thank each of you for just incredible work to be able to to work in this incredible of black writers is what sort of feeds me each day. And, you know, to this question, karen, the i think this is a question that i think black america fans, you know, in particular have always struggled with because you really asking a question about and and black americans in particular have never truly felt home, you know, in the United States. You know, even when we go back to, lets say in west africa, we may not even necessarily we feel completely home and so in many ways, black americans dont even feel like they have nation. But then other scholars, you know, starting with people like dubois, have argued, we do have a nation. Black america is our nation, right . We have a nation within nation. And, you know, it sort of reminds of even Langston Hughes when he wrote, of course, in his poem, too, am an american. But then 40 years later, malcolm x said in a famous speech that im im not a republican. Im not a democrat. Im not even american and got sense enough to know it. You know, one of the 22 million black victims of the democrats of the republic kids, you know, of the americans. And so in many ways, i think there isnt necessarily a right answer this question. And black writers have been arguing it. You know, really from the beginning of our sort prose. For me, i that we should also be considering who controls america because in many ways who controls america is going to determine what an american. And certainly folk have been fighting for our freedom so we can control ourselves and our story, you know, from the beginning that we can then determine, you know, what is an american, hmm. Now, ted cruz held up your your your book and did all of those things in trying to i guess have a gotcha moment with judge Brown Jackson i know it helped your book sales. What did it say about this country when . A person like anthony Brown Jackson could be taken through the paces that she taken through when just when Thurgood Marshall was going for confirmation. It wasnt that hard. And you think about that was during a period of time in this country where it should have been harder for a black person go through and pass muster, but yet was taken through. And at the crux of this is this battle around race and racism and what is racism and nancy racism. And how did you feel about that . I mean, know, karen, i think i initially first felt horrible about joe jackson. I mean, i you know, for her to have to for her for me to see after fact, i was like in something, right . It was sort of happening for her to have to deal with my book or the book of another sort of writer being destroyed and and weaponized and then for her having to sort of gather and who knows what ran through her mind, you know, when when she was you know, just i think, i felt bad for her. And i just want sort of emphasize that because, you know, theres been a lot of around it. But that was a very difficult moment her that senator cruz created. But i think to think that we have senators who think the existential threat is antiracism as opposed to racism you know is all i need to know about what those senators think, what they believe what they champion, what they defend. And its certainly not those us who are struggling to dismantle this structure. And just for those in the back and the cheap seats who came in with nefarious, you know, just to here to troll define that to find what is antiracism what is it what is it so that we can sit with the rest have it out there antiracism you know particularly when we think it from a structural standpoint its about creating a set of policies and practice that can create equity and justice. All people on the basis that, that, that the racial groups are equal. Okay, we got that. Now it should be settled. Thank you so much, dr. For your work as well as everyone in this room kevin powell you a little bit less lets get to the hard questions that was easy one you know as i was listening to dr. Kendi in lady hubbard even it up to the point that there really is no American Culture without black people so when when that can talk about the power structure i, i think black folks are at the of the power structure of like theres no america without black people. So arent we empowered now and if we knew that, you know, we move differently . Well, first of all, i want to apologize. I didnt. Dr. Greene, Brenda Greene and april silver and all the folks who put this together in the beginning. So i just want to say thank all to the folks who are behind the scenes who, make this happen. And im honored again to be here. The first time i came to this is in 1991. So its really incredible to see continually going on the racism to me is race plus power equals racism and any in the context of any society, in the context of american societies who has power who does you know its not an either or its both you cant talk about american history. You cant talk about you cant talk about scientific progress. You cant talk about the arts. You cant talk about the construction of all those institutions in dc, including the capital that was stormed on january 6th, you know, the socalled without talking about black people that you cant talk about literature that talked about bloody we cant talk about so many tough things talking about the countrys pieces people you cant talk about the journey of america period. Without black people you cant. Its just impossible to do so. But have black people ever had power in this country . The way i define the ability to determine our lives, were talking about the termination. If can go to school. I was thinking about the more early about he lived in a black community was insulated so they didnt deal with white actually we do because even if you are only around black people if youre still talking about someone has good hair and has bad hair, someone whose lighter complexion is more attracted to someone who has darker complexion. If one body type is superior to another body type, youre still dealing with the effects of racism. Racism is race plus power, which means im dictating how you see yourself and what you can cannot do in any given society any time, if which im out, can walk up my door, whether its in california where im at now or new york, where i live and have to think about getting killed simply because a black person thats called racism, black people in this society in america, other places where were the numerical minority are not minorities, we are not minorities. We are numerical minorities in places like england, you know, like canada, like United States. Can we actually control every aspect of our lives. And if the answer is no, you know that we are dependent on Something Else over or were fearful that something may happen to us simply because of who we as black people, as African People, we dont have power. Were actually disempowered power. And what weve been fighting for since the beginning is to be in power, which is why when you think about everything you know from folks after reconstruction, you know, the building of schools, the building of the call for land, you know, when you think about what the civil rights war was about or the Garvey Movement even before that in twenties, these are different movies. What is black matter . You know, we want to be you know what i mean . And so that doesnt mean that i dont think that we are a powerful people. I know were a powerful people. Thats what that goes to on question. Look, the body of work that abraham and lady and morris and you, karen, represent look at the body of work at this conflict. You can see power, the genius, the excellence of black people every single day. But what im talking about when i think power is how do we get to that . What emerges saying this is a system race ism is race plus power equals racism. And when i can get to a place where we dont have someone attacking peoples work and ignorant white supremacist politician attacking his work and attacking a black judge. I said justice earlier. I was trying to foreshadow shes going to get in, but a. G. Brown jackson, who we know was more qualified than Amy Coney Barrett and Brett Kavanaugh because they are mediocre white people, theyre mediocre white people. But what the system of racism allows is white people to actually the scholarship of dr. Kennedy or a the genius a judge, kentucky, brown, jackson because they are threatened that this system of racism is somehow going to fall apart just by letting in a few people of color thats the insanity of racism thats the insanity of racism and so what were fighting for and this is this for anyone whos listening, who doesnt understand, show me a time in history america where black people have wanted do to white people who are White Supremacy and what theyve done to us. It doesnt exist. If you actually know history. All weve been saying is i want the right to vote without interference. I want the right to walk down a street without getting killed. I wanted to write, be in my bed without getting shot. I want to be in a go somewhere and not get knee to death. Thats all weve been saying for for a hundred years. Thats i want to write i want to write write a book about antiracism and not be told that im the problem because im criticizing the problem. And yet were here. Were all here all very as you mentioned, two more races, point writing, writing, writing our stories, telling narratives, being involved in, self determining how we get to be shape is at the crux everything and this conference is an example of that i looked at the roster people and i was like okay, we are where we were 30, 40, 50 years ago. I think we should acknowledge that as. Well, lady hulbert, i want to just say this for the panelists were being very nice and polite. Please jump in. Im just here directing traffic. I need you all to just jump in with cause i see i see the brains moving. Lady hubbard, you had something you. Want to jump in with . No, no, i agree with with what is being said i was think it is you know, im not i write fiction, i write books. And so theyre kind of related for me because i think even when i was saying that, you know, that so much of america actually black culture or derived from black people that its so theres a the fragility issue and the inability to just admit that which which it is about power. I just feel like that is is part of the most basic problem thats going on is the inability to just admit the truth, history and why people are so afraid of talking about things that are, you know, seem pretty clearly part of the reality that we all live in and supposedly share. And yet its so hard to just get to a point where you can talk about things honestly, which is, you know, its kind of like a pathology but so many things. So people have their identity are so dependent on black people occupying a certain position that is very hard to just to just look at what is there, what very clearly present and and so, you know, as a as writer as someone that writes fiction thats those are probably the terms on which i think about it. Do you know what i mean . I hope that yeah. And its all kind of into into and to try because you know im looking at you and your lady hubbard. Im also thinking about all of the books into movies and television shows. Im thinking about sally whitfield. Im thinking about, you know, lovecraft and all of the art that now is in the lexicon is like its of our culture, where people now learning about what black wall street from watchmen from from from a graphic novel. You its like we we are theres a convergence and connecting to your point that power i think is transferring we already powered companies we powered the country we you know they built on the backs of our free labor and now we spend money to make all of these companies rich disproportionately. Whether youre talking about cleaning or whatever. Thats our dollars. And now politically, you know, were seeing movements happen in in art, were seeing it across the board. Its not just a black response here or there is is it here to stay . Is it here to stay even candy . You know, you your bestsellers, i look at the bestsellers list every week and a bunch of black people on their making money selling books selling books. Well, one thing i we havent maybe acknowledge even as black people is is how much even within the black community theres a a political transformation, particularly over the last 20 years. Of course, you know, in the nineties, you know, there were many prominent black political figures and even artists who were consistently and routinely disparaging black people in all three different types of ways. And and that is simply like not the case now and i think that i think because of that, particularly as artists and writers, theres more and more i think artists and writers whove been able to free themselves im talking about black ones whove been able to free themselves of the white gaze and freeing themselves of the white gaze theyve been able to really unlock the creativity of. All the greats, right . Those greats like zora and james and and others who didnt care about the white gaze, which then allowed, of course, you know, their creativity to flower then has allowed the sort of beauty of art to flower, which have led more people to gravitate to it. And so i do. Were living just in an i think were living in an incredible time for black writers and artists and creators, but i think part of that is because we dont really care what youre thinking anymore and to a certain extent, many of the many writers dont even care how black folks think. Theyre writing to challenge black people, theyre writing to reflect back people, and they know sometimes even black folk may not like that. Thats the job of the artist. To that point, Ladee Hubbard and kevin, you can jump in. Who do you write for whos in your head when you sit at your computer . People ask me and i wish i had Something Better to say so thats funny you brought that up. I feel like i write from the south. N i dont want to let clutter in my head. Its hard. I cant think about pleasing other people. Its a distraction. Im not the first person to notice that. Its a huge distraction and a waste of time. I just wouldnt get anything out of me. I tell myself theres somebody that will understand what im saying and theres somebody that needs to hear it the way when i was younger and read certain things and i was so grateful they existed. But i try to quiet all of those voices and not think about them because it comes up and you do think its not just the white gaze, its true. How will this be perceived and i agree with everything my characters are saying and whats my grandma going to think or my grandpa and it is an obstacle trying to be honest and ultimately to respect the complexity of your characters and their experiences. So,ye yeah, i agree its interesting. The stories are all set in the 90s, that era prior to obama being elected so i was really thinking about like when you talk about black people attacking other black people and thats part of what i remember was just this for me it looked very like class like theres a theres successful black people that got it together and then all thesean other black people like youan dont have an excuse here and ret because there there were, again, structural things going on underneath all of that and youre denying it. You if you think that that black are and also it just it is part of the the what happened after you know the post post rights au not always true but more people going to white schools and integrated schools, and that had its own impact, i think, on how people saw each other in relations to each other. I dont, my uncle wrote a documentary and i thought it was funny about a Football Team, a black Football Team and the schools were integrated and big football fan and team fan and basically ruining the team because they werent allowed to play. Thats kind of on a side. Its very complicated what was going on during the 80s and 90s and how they related to each other and the way of very racist ideas articlated themselves and people seemed to be more open about what it is theyre ultimately trying to say now compared to back then. Theres a lot of like suspicion and its very clear and explicit where people are coming from. Kirin seems to be karen seems to be an evolution and i watched kevin powell e vol through a period of time as a journalist, as a thought leader. His books even chronicled like a play list of what we went through and endured. What are your thoughts on what ladee is saying, kevin . Kevin i mean, i love that ladee, youre an excellent fiction writer and i just want to say that. Im fans of both yall and i love listening to you and i hope we can get back on the call or he can get back. A lot of things are in my head right now. Im going to try to practice shake conspiracy and brevity ani im paying attention to the chat room of the audience and theyre asking very profound questions. Let me say a couple things and i hope we can agree or disagree. A couple things, one of my late mentors, he just passed, dr. Bell hooks said we should always name the oppression. I got to see dr. Bell before she passed and i went to her home in kentucky andas it was one of the saddest days in my life and i thanked her for what she gave us, 40 books in 40 years and i challenge anything public intellectual thats created 40 books in 40 years no matter their race and gender identity. Trying not to get emotional. White capitalism patriarch. We in this country do ourselves a disservice not naming the white oppression. You have to name it. When i first started writing as a child, i wrote fiction first, ladee, i loved fiction. Im a huge lover of fiction. I simply wanted to save my life. Writing is as important to me as breathing. I need to say that. Kei take very seriously the art, the craft of writing. I just when i got to college at 18, i was literally in the middle of the crack era, the aids era, and the antipart movement. Nelson mandela was in jail and at 18 and 19 after reading the autobiography of malcolm x and i was watching god, it helped me contextualize. I got as much out of reading zora and ricky wright as reading baldwin or whoever else. I made a conscious decision, one, i have to save my life as a black person, as an african person because i am not carrying around i began to understand before the terms like antiracism and whiteev supremacy and traum. I understood at 18, 19, kevin powell, you went through traumatic stuff that was passed to you from your momma data momy that they got from their parents and you have to make sense of the world and paraphrasing them. Im writing for myself first and foremost. Im a black writer, not a writer thats black but writing is as parent at my therapy session for 30 years and spirit cull work and islam and spirituality and everything. Im trying not to die. Im trying not to die. Not physically die but die underneath all thes chaos thate as black people have to deal with every single day in this place called america. Thats what i think about. Secondly, i realize i have a responsibility because i come from a literary tradition thats back to the slave narratives and all the renaissance, the black lives movement because i had to study all those things. I understood i come from a tradition soso i do have a responsibility to my communism im thinking about am i representing my community the way i wanted to be represented or am i putting trash out there or garbage out there . I absorb trash and now educational malpractice, tell me inho school that all black peope were was slaves and dont talk about ancient africa or modern day africa or anything we created or built in this country. Im given trash and expected to put trash out there to my community. I think when publishers say whos your audience . Thats a joke. Your audience is whoever reads your work. Br thats your audience. Thats as broad or narrow as you want it to be. Everyone reads it differently because of the lens they come with. The last thing ill say its important about who we write for. Its about liberation for me at this point. Its been that way for a very long time. How can this work through me . For example, when i first read the autobiography of malcolm x at 18 and 19, it blew my mind. He liberated me. For the first time i understand the gechi from my mother from South Carolina was beautiful poetry. I began to realize, wait a minute, everything that i need as an artist, as a writer, as a thinker is right here in front of me in my head, and i didnt know itt because i had been practicing ive been taught selfhatred for the first 18, 19 years of my life. Everything i need,d, i can take this and go with this for the rest of my climate of course, my writing for me is ultimately about telling the truth and if were telling the truth, certainly you got to tell the truth of black people and what we went through in this country and europe and caribbean and h canada and all over the world, where have black people navigated and we should never be apologetic about being black. Weou should be proud to say, i m in love with my blackness. Im in love with my africanness. I dont hate anyone else, i love all people. I love all people but ill be damned if i put my love for other people ahead of myself. Thats what my literature is about. I got to honor myself, my momma, myonties, my grand aunties, my grandmother, thats why theyre in my books over and over. Es my poetry and two choices of writing, i have to honor my community because i have a responsibility to be a documenttarian and i got to say this with all due respect and this is a pushback, no theres no movemen happening because if theres a movement happening, you know what i mean, you would not have people debating on social media whether jackson was being treated properly or not. There would be not be a huge divide on social media on what happened between will smith and chris rock a week ago. We need to understand, the met fore for me is as metaphor for me is as you see 4 people fleeing ukraine because of the bombing by russia on ukraine, thats the anal seizure analogyk people in the United States and the thing that hurts my heart as a music lover that documented my music for a long time and learn that had from Albert Murray and mary baraca and as much as i can say they are incredible books, our music is worse than its ever beenment im saying as a im saying as a lifelong hipen hop head. If theres a movement, theres no literature questioning whats happening over here like profound way like ladee and ibram have been doing and thenpl they say the worst things about black people, black men and women and more rappers than ever being choked by each other. In a spite of all the socalled progress, theres a profound selfhatred. Profound selfhatred, which is a result of racism that permeates everything that we do that leads to rappers murdering each other and leads to one black man slapping another black man on a stage. Leads to people it asking if people are black enough. Says we have serious work to do and literature is the one place where we can question interrogate and try to find out why this is going on. Karen how much of that is cure ration. As it relates to the music, how many of us are producing its what sells. I, talking with ibram kendi about it. Whats on the best sells list and who do they decide to give money to and promote. Its very curated and if you know thats what they want, thats what youre going to produce. The allll Mighty Dollar is whate produce andnd that music is produced because thats what they curate and sell to us to feed this disease. Were all miseducated. To that point, dr. Kendi, do you feel a responsibility to educate white people . Is that what antiracism and Antiracism Movement youve orcreated in book form, is that what that is . Telling them what they need to know . No no. I dont feel that its my responsible to educate white people and i would say more broadly, its not the responsibilityth of black people to educate white people. I dont think its theli responsibility of people of color to educate white people. I think its the responsibility of white people to educate white people. I dont i do think though it is important for me as a scholar and a writer to put out literature that allows people who are taking that responsibility. Blackr theyre white or or any other race for them to gain more clarity on what racism is on how they can sort of challenge it. For me, if i was to say its my responsibility or if i was to say its black peoples responsibility to educate white people about racism, then what im alsoo saying is that if whie people are not educated aboutpe racism, its black peoples fault. Its my fault, and i dont see that as a fault. Ive never seen it as a fault. Thats one of the earliest, i remember i was there as a historian in the 1790s, white abolitionists started entering into free black communities and basically saying to free black people that it was their responsibility to act in an upstanding manner, to persuade away white racist ideas, which those white abolitionists stated were the foundation of slavery. Not capitalism, not making money, not violence, not power, but they believe that racist ideas were the foundation of why white people were enslaving people. They believed, these white abolitionists, that white people thought lesser of black people because we acted lesser. They thought i should just act in a better way and more upstanding way and white folks will see me and nothing wrong with black people and theyll enslaving us. That theory, which i call on my work up persuasion was based in a racist idea that somehow if, you know, white people think lesser of us again because we do act lesser and to me its a racist idea. Soso i dont think again its or responsibility, Social Security my responsibility to educate in, a way. White fox in a way and they take upon themselves and comes to my book or comes to another black persons book as part of their journey andy, their challenging themselves and certainly i want to be one of the people who provides them literature. Karen to that, theres been a lot of conversation that tells you you are what you eat, we kind of know where our sensibilities lie with what we engage with on social media and other spaces and that notion that whatever happened last week at thesc oscar isctn on black people, which ishy why i wouldnt engage in conversations about it representing black people even though black people as kevin andn others pointed ou, there was ath divide, a deep divide among us. But that divide was really about how we came to that moment personally, like what that moment meant to us personally, not so much whatt that moment was. Nt it was not a representation of two millionaires and not reputation of black people and white folk want to inverbally know from us what we think about that thing because if youre inclined as i said or tweeted, if youre inclined to think thats why white people dont think highly of black people, youre really missing your assignment, youve really confused about whats happening in this country and world around race and racism. Kevin, do you agree with that . I didnt want to go ahead with ladee. Karen ladee, do you agree with that . First ophiology, i love your name. First of all, i love your name. I could see that on the marquee in lights. Its a a royal name. Its my great grandmothers name, she named herself ladee and thats why i have that spelling because thats how she spelled it. Yeah, im sorry. I got all caught up. W what was the question . Karen what do yall distinctively say to ibrams point that we are not going to behave our way into white people to like us or to respect us orus to hold us to a higher seam. Its not about our behavior. Its not about where we slap each other or dont slap each other. If you feel a certain way about white people or black people,wa you feel that way. I knew thats how they worked and theres nothing we can do to stop a person from feeling that were beneath them, that were less than, and thats why i dont want us to acknowledge their opinion about us at all. This is Family Business in my opinion. Ladee you guys make me think about a lot of things in terms of that. The first book they wrote, the talented h ripkin. I was very tired of how it was just me personally. Ki i was really thinking that is there a way that i can writean about race and racism and sort of history without sort of centralizingng like a confrontation between black people and white people . It was on my mind. Ill put it that way. It was on my mind. Theres actually no white characters in that book. Theres only one and the only tthing that that might be slight exaggeration but the only direct is the salesclerk that talked to him saying isnt it your job to see me, which is i was thinking that to myself. Someone actually says that to one of the characters like the direct, isnt that your job to see me . Thats something that was devote when people were talking about teaching, is there an obligation for teaching . No, i cant write like that and im aware theres an expectation that thats what black people are doing or talking about and all they talk about all day long is white people and you were talking about bell hook, that book also i remember she has a something i read, i love bell hook as well but i dont know her. Ive seen her speak but dont know her the way you do, there was one of her books about the gaze and i cant remember how but she was talking about the men in her family and how they were quiet, that it was like the women were i was like its very beautiful to me because it really made me think about sort of ideas that i had acquired about the way in which sort of black men and black women interact as panters and i was like, thats so much more familiar to me than anything i can recall reading, and it was very, very profound. That too is something specifically i thought a lot about when i was writing that book because that book is the first book is about an older man and his teenage niece and it was y very much about my grandfather and myself. Like emotionally for me. That was very moving so again, like somebody i needed to read that. It just opened up so many things for me and theres so much that she wrote that has the same effect. When t you were talking i was thinking about thatal specifically. Like wanting to write a story that described sort of a different set of relationships that i often saw in the media or, you know, often heard about with the dynamic between families of men and women. Im sorry. Thats where my mind went while you guys were talking. Karen no, thank you, kevin, for evoking her name. Bell hook will never pass or never really truly be gone because of you and others. Kevin thank you. There was a good point and im an actor and writer on this panel and theres other great writers on this panel and we speak around the country and globally and i want to bring it back to malcolm x for a second, malcom tells the story famously that a white sister came up to him and asked what could white people do and he said nothing. He made his pilgrimage and move to mecca, it was nothing. Its not the responsibility of any oppressed or marginalized group that teach them. E believe as human beings, we have the responsibility if someone asks a question, what should i read, what should i watch or listen to . As human beings, im conscious now that i dont want to take on the behavior of people who have hated me or marginalized me or oppressed me. Im not going to say to any human beings, go figure it out for yourself. F. If thats the case, here i am now in 2022, someone who can say, you know, my work around gender violence or work around transphobia, is this as important as fighting against racism. That wouldnt be the case if women or lgbtq folks had the time to say to me, heres things to read, watch, and listen to. I dont want us to lose ourwh humanity in the midst of all itthis. Its not either or and theres work that i do specifically with black people. Im very clear about that and ill never apologize for that. I make it clear with our bill and when im out there speaking and dr. Ibram, i know you know and sister ladee, people go to the audience and theyre asking questions. We have a responsibility as human beings, leaders, and folks that want to see the world changege and heres what you can dodo and what to watch and i advise people against and white folks against and black people are no longer interested in being your metaphorical mamies. Were not going to be your mamies and you cannot come to us and have the situation with will and chris and black lives matter and everyone here got tons ofes phone calls and Text Messages and social media messages from white folks asking is everything okay anday anything we can talk about and can i ask you a question and the problem is what we realize now is that white folks in america are grossly miseducated as well. In theres this awakening happening now that weve never seen before and ive been doing this work e since the 1980s except for a handful of white folks and they think i was apart ofin rallies in 80s and 90s was majorly black andnd brown people. Now the work i see is all folks and the ground work was laid. T this is what i need to read and study and language to look for. I need to be antiracist for example and thank god that dr. Kenny and people like him and them have had the foresight to say this is the work thats here. I think that for some white folks because of how horrific the White Supremacy of donald trump was, you know whey mean and howrr horrific it was for wt happened toed Breonna Taylor and george floyd because its happening to black women andst men. Cant just be focusing on black men, that cause add lot of white folks to say, oh, they dont regard us a certain way either. Thats where theyre seeking and i cant begrudge them that. Men need to do the work of understanding sexism. We need bell hooks and organ law and allen and tony morison and to the point, tony morison cede said it, you cant center whiteness. G weve got to stop centering white people and if we keep doing that and put the conversation around them, were perpetuatinges the mythology tht white people are superior to everyone else and we know thats a lie. Thats a lie. Aint nobody superior to nobody. Superior is the power that some groups have had that have dictated the rest of our lives but no one is superior to anybody. Their stories are not superior and their lives are not superior, any of that stuff. Thats what the battle is for and thats what youve seen with the ted cruz blowing up dr. Ib are, ams book like ibrams bookan saying were holding onto whitely nationalism and White Supremacy and women that are their allies and believe in that stuff. Its to the detriment to the rest of us. Thats what thisal is about andi think we need to be very clear. The thing i say to black folks because its ultimately a distraction. T e but the real problem for me, theres three street levels of the fight and the struggles we call t one is the fight against all systems of oppression. Thats number one. At are you what are you doing to fight back any kind of hatred, marginalization andth oppression in this country. The second thing people are talking about in the chat is what are we going to talk about and talking about black folks. Hey black people, what are we doing here . Saying to yall as someone that evolved in a lot of ways like im a work in progress and i realize i cant fight racism if. Im oppressing black women or cant talk about racism if im homophobic or transphobic and i talk about it all because its the intersectionalty that has been talked about for the first few years and one is the largest picture and two is inside the black community and the third piece, which everyone keeps saying, karen, in the chat. What about the black self. Thats where the conversation with will smith is important and whats going on with us certainly and the trauma and passed to us for the family hair loom and generation and generation and lead ourselves to slap each other, shoot each other, murder each other, fight each other and call each other names on social media. I love this conversation and not been like, i dont want to jump in, karen, the only reason i cant do the cnn, msnbc and fox news is because people are yelling at each other. The beautiful thing about this conversation, you take turns speak. Its civil and respectful. How about that; right. Ha ladee and dr. Ibram, isnt that nice . Karen yeah, but this is the space created out of the mind of a few people and dr. Green curate that had and inspired me to have conversation with people on saturdays and create narratives and a lot of newbies in the chat and we had a family meeting and i didnt talk about what i talked about on the radio and we talk about it as a family first. We have the trauma to work through and we work through it in the space of love and respect. T maybe we dont know what that looks like yet. Maybe some of us dent know what that looks like yet but at least its a start to know that in this space, we zoochore and Everybody Knows our names. Were not operating from that deficit. Doctor, i see the questions in the chat and thank you, kevin, for showing me the chat. L i feel like this is an Inflection Point weve been in with the convergence of a pandemic and george floyd of now Ketanji Brownjackson. Theres a lot of black people that are like i need to buy black, be black, respect black and the music will shift shift in the next five years and these young 13, 14 yearolds are going to save us. I feel like they got it. What are youren thoughts on this dr. Kendi and then ladee . What im finding is everything youve just described in terms of that sort of wave of black people who in many ways arent embracing themselves and complicating themselves and realizing their equal with perfect groups of people really sort of diving into the humanity really as lady stated, thinking past this sort of confrontation ofd blackness and whiteness ani also think that we are in a moment when theres black folks with the opportunity to destroy black people. Theres so many let me give an example. This election cycle and many progressive black congresswomen and men are facing our candidates who are rallying against crt. Facing candidates who are arguing that what happened to Ketanji Brownjackson was important and angry about the way that Brett Cavanaugh was saying racism is a left wing hoax. Im know personally because many oaf these as we call them sort of black conservatives really, really hate my work. I mean, really hate my work. The book attacking many of our sort of black writers and so i just also dont want us to ignore theres a growing member of black folks figuring out ways to tell them what were building soen they can benefit and potentially even be freed and potentially the enslaved literally who told them you could turn around and then become a slave holder and enclave people themselves. I just want us to literally in this moment, were going two directions. I just want us to call out those black folks and recognize those black folks and challenge those black folks just as we lift up those black folks like lady and kevin who are moving forward. Karen Ladee Hubbard. Thats really wild to think about. Its a fraught period right now. Do you think that is a recent phenomena like more promoted now in terms of what sort of underlying the conservative piece and do you feel like thats heightened right now . I dont think its a recent phenomena but i think there are just more people who are publicly sort of carrying the water for. Isnt it financially viable to carry the water for antiblackness if youre black and isnt it really, really profitable . It is; right. Karen thats what im saying and it hasnt changed and the difference is we have social media and we have endless ways in which we can direct traffic to an audience. Thi love our names. Whats the top heavy issue in the black community itself to the black community and whateveu that issue is, how do we combat that and at the same time fight outside of ourselves . Karen is the issue lack of love . T for me, it was a step by step process and i dont know who i am as a black person, period. I didnt know that black anything existed including black writers was tragic and i wanted to be a writer and i get to study our history and malcolm x says history is peoples memory without it and without it were demoted to lower animals and i began going through the process, i started moving from selfhatred to selflove and its a journey. It wont happen in a couple months, itll be aye couple yea. Weve all studied for years and years and years and, karen, youve been doing this work for years and years and years and if youre taught 365, 24 7 to hate yourself, youve got to put in work to counter that. When i think about my own personal journey, maybe one black person, unless they were raised by very, very woke parents, a very woke community has not engaged in some form of metaphorical slap towards a, black person. Theres very few that can say that. They think wait atu minute, do i love myself, love my people or what . Its a process and a journey but we have to be able to engage in it and its about how we talk with each other and talk with ourselves. This panel is love t to me becae theres a love and respect for each other. Ive been on panels where ive cringed like, yo, son, is this person really thinking that wholedo panel is about them or have respect fore other people and read other peoples work . You feel what im saying . Its love. Black people have been taught and b programmed to hate oursels and so its got to come back to black love. S i want toba push back on something, someone said black m nationalism is the answer. I have a book on tupac shakir is coming out and the publisher and whole nine yards and its forced me to do a deep dive back into the 60s and black movement. Tupacs mother not only had to fight pate your i can and deal s with the hatred of black men. Think about howla barely any blk people were allowed on the stage when dr. King gave the i have a dream speech. All those speakers were women. Isblack nationalism and White Nationalism is rooted in sexism and pate your i can and thats archaic and how can we be free equally. Ti i interview writers and one talked about the hatred she dealt with as a black woman, sexism and sexism and homophobia and do i love black women or not. I put conditions on it if youre this or that. I love all black people. Thatss who we got to get to. Thats where the name sake for the panel is about. We have to love all black people no matter who they are. Thats where we got to be at many any opinion. Karen ibram, do you want to jump in on the question . Ibram, i think kevin answered one thing ill say is for me its health. 200 according to david williamso and scholar and 200 black people died prematurely per day because of Health Disparities and those of us who live, recent evidence is showing that racism itself is a stressor and recent physical and Mental Health is a primary issue and even what kevin stated, whether we love ourselves or hate ourselves, thats a Mental Health issue. Karen. Trina abraham has a question for you, dr. Kendi. How do you deal with teaching younger blacks not to be a victimha of intercultural racism we see in our society and our communities . I think that one of the reasons why ive moved to write more for children and for kids is because if we could provide young black kids with literature that allows them first to realize that theres nothing wrong with you because of the color of your skin and then they also read the history of who created those ideas and why. Z z it will then create a shield for them to not think theres again something wrong with them or black women to kevins point or black poor people and they can then develop a more healthy sort of sense of self. Ladee hubbard, lets go to this question. Is this black literature in specific ways . It seepsps like a specific moment and other people have spoken in with people claiming their voices and a little distant and i was listening to what everybody was saying and it is true because i in terms of Self Expression and stuff like that, i do think a lot of hatred of others does stem from a lack acof self love and sort of it makes you feel very threatened i think by difference when you dont have the resources to sort of respect and love yourself its a health issue for a lot of black people, people of color, a lot of women and men but a lot of women as well. To acknowledge these things and to sort of see them and talk about them and im coming at these things youre talking about as a writer of fiction and someone else and i know other people have said this too, it is for me, that selfexpression and life i was writing through myself, i agreed it is kind of like ael lifeline for me and it comes like how i work through a lot of attention and grief probably and confusion often as well if im honest. I think people, i dont know, i feel like it is true, theres been a convergence. Theres the pandemic and all this violence that actually was not new but somehow people saw it and this deal, its very intense. Its also intense to sort of realize what it is required for people to acknowledge it. How much, how much acting out ot but just in your face sort of suffering is required for people to say, oh, look at that. A lot of that is new. The disparities and Health Issues are not new and violence against African Americans is not new theyve had an affect to think a lot of black people and black artists and writers just thinking about the implications of that. Karen i just want to piggy baci on that and encourage everyone in the conference to pick up a pen and write every day. Thats part of the healing. Kevin talked about it and ibram talked about health and talking about ladee for a lot of writers, youre being in a public form and speaking and i just want to thank all of the writers uncomfortable talking and thank you for being here and talking but that writing pen to paper theres something very spiritual about it and talking about the word becoming flesh and internal trauma and disease in the condition in the country and around the globe. Writing it every day just putting your thoughts on paper is so therapeutic and we should go to therapy too and i just want to say that. Go ahead, kevin. I wantt to add that nobody would have a Ladee Hubbard or kendi and ifes you dot work, whn something, explodes like black lives matter, people will have stuff to turn to that will answer questions for them and they put the work in. I want to stress that because i do a writers workshop that came out of covid two years ago and a lot of a writers are looking foi want to get out there and get published if you havent done the work, you dont know history and were able to have this kind of conversation and we actually read, we study and we actually travel and we have a lot of work as a writer, correct me if im wrong, ladee is gap eling with myself. How do i say this or write this story and this intellectual idea theres no shortcut to this and you want to create work thats going to work. He that is the 10th anniversary of the 100th anniversary of the harlem renaissance and theyve create add body of work that with stood the test of time. Our work around 100 years from now andw people will be able to see heres how i can build on this from what became before me aiand lady said as well, theres nothing were doing thats new and were remixing for these times and use the term of hip hop and using language for the time and ibe dont know, we didt say antiracism and these white folks are messed up and thats what im saying and the junior is put ago term on it. Putting a term on it. Something people can latch onto and say this is the work i need to co. Thats the genius of it. Karen we are remembering. Lisa says which one of your ancestors got you fired up today and kevin has been like this since ive known him. The ancestors are firing him up. I believe in piece and love. Karen how do we create a safe space in ourit communities for e younger generations to express their views regarding racism in america. Wheres their safe space . Ibram . Well, i think that many w people sharing with their parents and the old heads and i would say they sort of concisely that i would encourage you to urge a young person to create that space and for them to have that space for themselves so we dont necessarily need to be there. We can sort of urge them and maybe provide them with books to consider, but i think its truly safe if theyre there grappling with each other and were sort of guiding them from the outside. This is critically important and i didnt have this sort of safe space, i wish i did. Ffkaren you gave me an inspiration and ill announce this today just for young people just because it is questioned, well do a young version of nubia. Thank you for that unless somebody else wants to jump in. Kevin, ill invite you to participate. E. Definitely. Im there. You know im always there for you, karen. Karen appreciate it. Kevin jones, love how this conversation exists on exploring blackness as humanness. How do we beyond in the ocean of subtle and mythology to fully manifest as a leading global perspective . You gave the Ketanji Brownjackson sigh. How do we answer this . I like that theres lightfulness. Kevin, youve been to many of these conferences, rarely are any issues solved. Its a lot of circular conversation, like you said, a lot of this is one of the most thoughtful panels ive moderated and been on and been apart of because it is so thoughtful. You guys are actually contemplating the question in the way that how does it free us to quote sanchez and how do it free us is. Weve got to be willing to come up with solutions for me and i think i say this in a lot of my speeches and feel like theres six areas where black people need to be empowered with black people and theres a price for all of humanity and spiritually and culturally and its physical health. We need to talk about that and how many of us are affected by these systems and how it affects us in the Mental Health and thoset six areas. Im not g going to bend from tht spiritually, culturally, lieconomically, emotional and Mental Health. I needs to be holistic and black people have been centered in the center of oppression and thet African Students being brought for leaving ukraine. Our africanness doesnt come up and people like ladee and ibram and karen and dr. Green, we have some ideas and we dont have all the answersmp and we can compete with all the people and being the big dog. Its ridiculous that people need another malcom or martin and doing the rights and people whose things will never know who contributed to the ideas of what it is to navigate our blackness under oppression and thats the case now and i just think that sometimes we need to pause all the noise that weve heard for theto last week is symptomatic f the noise weve been dealing with the education motion of this thing and cell phones, social media and we need to get offline and just really have conversations. Im trying to get on the phone with people again like can we have a conversation about what we justju witnessed for examplet the oscars and why did we see these actions and what can we do here . Thats where its got to be. Theres got to be some sort of effort otherwise were constantly in crisis mode reacting to t stuff. Reacting to the slap, reacting w to what happened to jungle Ketanji Brownjackson. You dont win when youre in crisis mode. When youre in crisis mode, youre just surviving for 400 years. I dont want to survive. A sister i went to college with her speech was black people, doubt to win . We know how to survive but do you want to win . Winning means you have to have a plan. You have to have a plan, you have to have a plan. What does that look like . It has to be holistic. How do we care for ourselves and hell heal and move forward and iu, guarantee if we do our work, itll impact our work and move and the Civil Rights Movement was engineered by black people and inspired the women rightss movement and Gay Liberation and native americans and creation of the panthers and young lords. Black people, not that were better than ibram else but whaty weve gone anybody else but what weve gone through on this planet, its inspire add lot of people. Even in places like whales for speeches or japan for speeches about us in america, they would share with me literally how we them and dont realize how weve inspired the planet and weve seen the degradation that people went through. What have people gone through that weve gone through worldwide in the last four to five years. It is profound, we are a miracle. We understand we are a miracle. Thats our genius, thats our excellence, but i believe that what is being demanded of us now more than ever, what is the plan particularly as we see all thisc stuff crumbling around us, people realize something is profoundly wrong, i believe in a way weve never seen before in americas history. Karen nobody knows my name, race relation and black literature is the panel and i think everybody will know our names when this is over. Let me say thank you. Ibram, kevin, Ladee Hubbard, any last words . We have to hand over to kevin powell, get the books at aalbc. Com cbl . Dr. Kendi g were going to see u in the book streets. Ladee hubbard, keep writing, keep writing, keep writing. Thank you so much. It was a pleasure. Thank you, karen. Thanks everyone. Karen to the great mo beasley, thank you. Thank you all. Odoh my god, im just like whoa. Yall cut to the bone and the soul of the matter. I just thank you. Play writer and screen writer david mammot discussed his book to religion and other topics. Hear some of what he had to say. How is it that these people have warped this magnificent culture of the world . I said maybe they didnt do it. Maybe were looking at Something Else all together. Maybe what these people are are taking lessons from medicine are a opportunistic infection that comes to the fore when the body becomes weak. Its not the pimple that causes the blood disease but rather the other way around. I said, now perhaps it begins to make sense that whats happening is a decay of an organism that gives them the rights and infraction and youre rundown and more likely to get the flow and gnarr arkansas youre not eating well and have the overriding fact that weakens the west. The answer i came up with was from a certain reading of history is process parity. It theres so much process prosperity we have so much liberal nonsense that law should not be law but an expression of feelings and that work is error, that strife is error and we have to give away anything we have to anyone that says they like it. Watch the full Program Online any time at book tv. Org. Just search david mamut or the title of his book recessional. A look at recent publishing news, walmart launched its own book club featuring five books, four seasonally with a fifth pick of the year. The company says our team of book merchants select titles on reading trends, relevancy, and Industry Market data helping to identify exciting titles that walmart customers are sure to love. The clubs inaugural book is the romance novel love on the brain, which was recently published. Half priced books is celebrating its 50th anniversary based in texas, it has become the Third Largest bookstore chain in america. According to Publishers Weekly while Half Price Books sells new books, 70 are composed of youth stock with communities and the chain had 2 million books per month and Washington Post columnist dana mill bank out with a new book, the 25 year crack up of the Republican Party explores the evolution of the gop from Newt Gingrichs contract with america to the end of Donald Trumps presidency. Rafael mangua the head of Crime Institute released criminal injustice. The wall street journal call it had a serious challenge to trigger happy police. And the new book the stolen year how covid changed childrens lives and where we go now is described by the New York Times as relentless account of interrupt torrs in americans lives from Mental Health cry crs and hunger and accidents. Book tv bringing you publishing news and new programs every weekend on cspan2. 2 youve been watching book tv. Every sunday on cspan2, watch nonfiction authors explain their books and watch them online at booktv. Org and find us on twitter, facebook, and youtube booktv. Im also delighted to welcome Jackson Lewis and to thank you for your great partnership. Just before introduce our speakers want to recognize and thank New York Historical society whos joining us this evening. First and foremost, the outstandg