Transcripts For CSPAN2 Author Discussion On Healing The Community Through Black Literature 20220919

Codirector and coproducer of the 2019 documentary film bam Chicago Black Arts Movement and he is completing an edited reader about chicago and black arts. He is author of black people are my business toni k bombards practices of liberation and editor of conversations with toni cade bambara. His interest extend to sports and Popular Culture and those interest are reflected in the book ballers of the new school race and sports in america. So everyone, please welcome brother to bd lewis. Thank you so much for that wonderful introduction. This years theme is the beautiful struggle. Struggle black writers lighting the way and i think using this theme as well as our the theme for our panel, our participants will engage in a will take on the theme of how black writers have in their understanding of continuous struggle for justice and the need to address aspiration issues and challenges that affect the black community have been a voice of strength and provided the bomb for our souls. So our panelists will will, in a few seconds after i introduce each of them, lean into and the transformative power of literature an agent of both for both personal and social change. So theres absolutely no question that central to Community Healing and liberation has been spirituals and gospel music that have healing dimensions, that engage symptoms and causes that manifest as texts in the africanamerican experience and in the text of africanamerican literature as a source of healing and liberation from the liberation narrative of the enslaved, such as acquired in douglass poems of juniper hammon and phillis wheatley, harriet jacobs, david Walker Martin delaney, francis harper, the boys and the folk literature for prison songs, the bad men songs and blues and works of and even the symphonic phrasings of dr. Martin luther king and x up to the present moment, the words of black writers address the aspirations of the people. The continuous struggle for liberation and they offer strength and pathway to healing and freedom. And so even in my own work, black people in my business, tony kaye bombards practices, liberation. I try to take similar concepts. I examine the way which bob barr really extended the liberation thrust of the 1960s and 70 is getting a new twist to this with our old view of black nationalism feminism being opposition. So. Today we have with us three you know, really esteemed panelists who i want to just briefly introduce to you who will explore in some really interesting ways these themes. So the first panelists is martha, who is the author of, four novels, the taste of salt, third girl from the left, the fall of rome and another way to dance chairman to mfa, mfa and from Brooklyn College and. Her nonfiction writing has appeared in many publications, including the New York Times magazine, as well as the op ed pages, page of oprah magazine, Washington Post and entertainment weekly. And among some of her recent works is rise up. An essay in the american scholar about transformative effect of hamilton and reviews of both and betty and ann patchett. Ladies novel. This was for the new york for the New York Times book review. Casey laymon earned his mfa from Indiana University and is currently a professor of english and africanamerican studies at the university of mississippi. Laymon is the author of the generation bending novel Long Division and the essay collection how to slowly kill yourself and others in america lameness bestselling memoir heavy an american memoir won the 2019 Andrew Carnegie medal for excellence in nonfiction. The 2018. Christopher isherwood prize for autobiographical prose and his art named one of the 50 best. It was named one of the 50 best memoirs of the past 50 years by the New York Times. So laymon is a recipient of the 2021 radcliffe fellowship at harvard and is at work on several projects, including the film heavy in american memoir and a third panelist, dr. Monica coleman is a professor of africana studies, the university of delaware, and she spent more than ten years as a at Claremont School for theology and school of theology at chicago. And she brings experiences in von jellicoe christianity black Church Traditions and and indigenous spirituality to the discussion of religion. Shes the of six books, several articles that focus on the role of faith in addressing critical social and philosophical issues and so her book making a way out of no way, is regarded as a required reading at leading theological around the country. And so as i introduce the all of these wonderful panelists, i was wondering, monica, if perhaps you could begin the conversation i want to be able to have title making a way out of no way to just talk about the theme of the panel within the context of your work. And then martha and then mr. Later. I would be glad to for me i pick that kind of topic of making your way out of no way is for me not actually making a way out of no way. Its really my own harnessing of this expression that is long been common among church women and then just kind of black people. General, of how is that we create pathways . It doesnt appear that theres going to be pathway. And as religion scholar for me, im very interested in how it is that we interact with god or with spirit and how spirit and humanity work together. I would say partner together to find a path where a prayer that was previously unforeseen. You might even say, we chart path, right . So it actually that theres no way. Its just there is not way that we can see very easily. I would put it that way. Its a new way. And so my is very much grounded in woman in theology and thats just the way in which religious reflect on the religious experiences of black women and, usually black women scholars doing this, highlighting how faith is about the liberation or the freedom of black people in general, and black women in particular, and in so doing, noting liberation isnt just about freedom, but liberation sometimes its just about survival. And its also about something thats more than freedom is also quality of life because not so exciting to be free if you dont have to have a good quality of life as well. And really highlighting that along with liberation come issues of survival because sometimes thats as good as it gets. But we really are aiming for this quality of life, something that is over and above simply being and in that sense were very convinced and very grounded in the sense that god speaks to black women. The god speaks with black women that god desires black womens wellness, that god is in black women, or that we may see the divine in black women, and that black women themselves interpret and harness their own relationship with god and their own faith for self. So when i use word salvation, which is often seen as a kind of christian concept about, what you believe about jesus, thats not what mean when i use salvation i want us to come to the root word of self which is a balm or a healing or wholeness and so when i talk about salvation, i think about how is it that we heal . How is that we heal our community . How is it that we heal our families and how is that black women foresee that process . And how do we actually do that and how do we do that in partnership with god in our relationship with spirit . And so i take that and i try to attach it to a worldview that embraces change as the most fundamental principle of the world or the universe, or i guess the multiverse, we should say nowadays that if we know nothing else, we know things are going to change and that things are actually always changing. And we know that our environment affects, we know that we affect our vehement. We also believe the spirit influences us and we also go as far as to say that we influence spirit until change itself is just kind of a is it just theres no morality to it. Its morally neutral. It just happens. But we also know that not all change is helpful. And so what we want to talk about is not that destructive, which definitely happens, but were aiming for a positive change. Were aiming for what . Scholars in my philosophical tradition name as creative transformation. And so for me, the shift is to say that the core of ones faith is less about a particular tenant or a dogma or a doctrine or spiritual practice, all of which i think are really fun and great to talk about, but the core of our faith is more about how we partner with spirit or the divine to change the world, and how do we make it a better, more free, healthier, whole quality, abundant place to be in and i mean, thats what i mean when i say making a way out of no way, because it often involves finding path that we didnt see anywhere before we get to now and ive really been interested in how black writers describe and imagine these worlds. How is it that we talk about the ways in which we make ways out of ways and im really just i love these beautiful stories of black people and what particularly interests is how black women writers harness spiritual power and, how they do that in their books, and how they have their characters do that right. Its usually not just for the sake of playing around with lightning, although thats fun. And i love to see that in one right before the healing of themselves, the healing of their communities for, the healing of their families. And so im really interested in how we do that. And in my own writing, i try and talk about even how i wrestled with the images of god. Ive been given and how i try to create new ones or sometimes go back into a more african path to retrieve what i find to be more liberating images of god. And i guess ill speak a moment about how ive been interested the last since the pandemic, especially how Octavia Butler has done that in the sower. Now she gives us this really great, amazing, bold teenage black girl, right character who is going to lead us and show us this way of how to survive in a world thats full of climate change, full of poverty, full of a huge gap between the rich and the poor. Right. Full of kind of, a fascist leaning government, full of a revival of slavery, all the which sound way too familiar right now, but didnt sound as familiar in 1993 when the book came out and how she talks about having this character lauren oya or amina. Right. Whos middle name is grounded in the europe or russia of change. Talk about how do we deal with change in is grounded in a kind and her her belief right her faith religion theology right a god is change philosophy that is very much about the agency that people have and how it is that we use our agency hopefully in creative ways, preferably in creative ways to form community, but also Heal Community that has dealt with a lot of loss and thats really where i think so many of us are right now, however, we find ourselves relating to the pandemic is that theres been a lot of loss and. How do we heal ourselves from that . How do we gather together . How do we honor, our ancestors and still make way forward . And so to me, thats one of my kind of recent favorite examples, although im happy to talk about more as we go on in terms of how we might harness a faith that isnt necessarily, oh, its this or that doctrine or this particular religion, but it still has this real black religion feel to it. Right. In terms of how she shows us how to make a way out of no way and that we can learn to do some of the same things ourselves for our own healing, but also for our community. Because for me, this isnt an individual thing, right . Even if it helps this individual, its not salvation. Its not that creative transformation unless its happening in community. So thats a great opening. Okay, this this is great. I want to come back to some of the things that youve said. I know we will come back much if all of what you said, mark, what would you be . Would you make your some opening comments . Sure. Sure. Thank you, monica. And thank you, casey and thabethe, im really thrilled to be here. Let me say that first. And i was really interested in what you were saying, monica, about i actually when i look down, its because im taking notes. What you said about i knew me rather than no way. I really that as a concept and i think thats so important for what i like is that africanamerican healing. I would say men and women but i really like that as a reimagining of it. I think for me, i guess my thoughts were primarily speak for my own work, although i thinking to not to compare myself. Toni morrison, but thinking about that, you know, it sees me on healing, but also what i think is interesting about her work and we were talking about this dr. Lewis is, how her work say in the bluest eye for example piccolo part of why she i mean, theres a million things that go wrong, but part of why she doesnt feel is because she continues to look outward rather than looking in the loaves, dont have community. I mean and you see a forgotten narrators name read this book of dies but the trope whats her name claudia. Claudia you grows narrating it one of the most beautiful parts of that book is the degree to which there she and her family are seeded in community when she has a cold and her mother comes in and puts vicks over her. And you know, when when bukola gets her period and shes at first shes mad, but then she laughs. Shes okay. I see whats going on here. So all the Loving Community that that girl has, that family has, and the opposition there. I was just thinking about that is such a healing vision that within but also i would say within literature i know Toni Morrison and i say this about myself where i didnt sit down thinking, how am i going to heal black people . You write that novel or any of marvels, and i think thats a really important, at least for me as a fiction writer is coming from character and from making things up. What am i to go back to the bluest eye . She talked about where she originally got this idea and given how old you must have been when this story, you know, is it like 70 some odd years ago, a childhood who said that she wished she had blue eyes and even though Tony Morrison was a child at this time as her friend, she said she never forgot it and thats how that entire vision over however long you took her 30 4050 years how long until she was able to process it and process it in terms of fiction and thats what i think is a really really beautiful thing about fiction dont like it can be used for healing but its not necessarily a tool healing and that makes sense or certainly the best the books i love the most. The writer isnt like let me fix this thing with. This book. And if if that happens, thats great. And you know, that certainly mean she would have i know she would have said that and often did later on in writing the book, she wanted to have that very much engage with for our people but it didnt start from there. And i have to say for myself, a writer thats been kind of an important bit vision, guiding principle. Ive started from a character that me in the case i the fall of rome, its this very unhappy, selfhating latin teacher black, male latin teacher who gets in conflict with a black student rather than a white student. Its very interesting. Intra racial tension and that came out of i went to prep school, had some of those feelings. I know i can understand where jerome coming from with some of that and i was interested in looking at some of the class and tensions, and issues of blackness that run amongst us as well, as hes theyre all a prep school, so theyre all in this majority situation. So what ive had happen, which is nice is ive had particularly students in prep schools say how their book like the book was really its been a really helpful war but again that was not my intent in writing it. So i think thats when you say out of no way, kind of trying to think a larger, darker. Lewis the term used was capacious view of blackness in a way where. Where are your spirit comes from . I think is really important. Then another thing, a book, my next book, which came out in 2005, but a lot of it is center or large portion is centered around the tulsa racial massacre. And so thats been interesting as i wrote the book a long time ago. And then to see that come much more into consciousness through pop culture. Speaking of writing goals and its, you know, superheroes stuff, oh, you know, we all know it was really it came the current interest was triggered by watchmen and i would say that book is very much to go your point about three black women kind of healing each other over a long period of time. And as i was working on it and again this is some of it came to me over time, i in no way sat down with this plan that trying to work through the the generation and trauma of tulsa which the family had really buried so that by the time i came to the end of the book was really thinking of it as a vision of healing. But i lost track how long im talking about briefly the thing about tulsa in that book is in fact, when i started it, it was about this blaxploitation actress. I picked tulsa because i thought it was kind of close to l. A. , which turns out its not that there was wider, real the bus to l. A. And the way that thing happened was an interview with west, who wrote the screenplay to uptown saturday night and i wanted to know what it was like on movie set in the seventies. And he said, oh yeah. He asked about my and i said, shes from tulsa. And said, oh yeah, thats where they had that. At the time, the word people used was riot. I was like, yeah, i them. And then the whole thing went backwards. So. So i told the anecdote partly because of the serendipity of it talk about, you know. I sort of trading knowledge without even knowing it but also that in a funny way as a writer of kind of being led to explore something i did not even intend in all honestly, i didnt start out planning to explore that to be so i dont i dont want to Wander Around too much, but i guess i feel like where healing can come from for me as a fiction writer and where i turn to it and feel it can function best is if you dont, is the work that doesnt start. Like from rose from whats the story you want to tell about the these people, whoever these people youre making up, whoever may be out there. Okay, i want to just point out one thing. Thank you so much, martha. No one is permitted to call me dr. Louis. Please to beatty for the introduction. Please note chi chi chi chi. How is this is its all good. Its just a key and an essay. But yeah. Im sorry. You know, every time i dont say it when when youre not there, i say key essay. And then when i look at it, i mess it up. So its not great, you know . You know what its like to be. The thing. Thats why im interested in writing on this. You i just want to say thank you for your work actually bambara it is you know you talk about healing that is one word that has helped me heal also want thank monica and martha for again like reminding me extended family slash that a lot of us sort of rely on to do this work. And i come into this necessarily wanting to talk the insides of my work at least not initially but but but i do think actually i want to talk about like the intense and that doesnt have much to do with the way i symbols and is a you know the way i created these books that ive made but i a lot about this idea that monica right of charting a path and you know being from mississippi i think a lot about growing up with my grandmother i think a lot about Mahalia Jackson is like how i got older and thats what i just kept hearing ran a hearing where monica was talking how to get over. I keep also hearing marthas sort like plea for us to remember that the healing can come organically, need not come necessarily from a political directive like, you know, it can come from the art. And i just want to maybe take it a different way and say that one of the ways that i have charted a path and gotten over and i think the most essential way i dont ever say this out loud because i always thought mississippi, black mississippi was the most essential way that i got over. But i think is black readers. I think so often, you know, bambara is, as all of us know, said that as a cultural worker who belongs to an oppressed people, my job is to make irresistible. And i just think its hard to make revolutionaries this table if you are not healthy right it goes into the song eating and what you tony cade, you know, she poses this question in the text through a character like, are you sure want to be well . And every time in my life ive confronted question honestly, the answer is never been yes. But black readers have in some way demanded that i be better than i think. I can be and better has not little to do. Excellence better to me has much more to do with abundance and embracing the messiness of mass slash our collective, all being. And so we can get into it to this a lot, a lot deeper. But like even before i got on this call today, regina bradley, incredible writer of chronicle instinct going at outkast, reader, incredible writer, also incredible friend, met through her reading just to say whats up . Because love you just want to see how you doing . Thats something. Regina the writer slash readers Community Member that i am a part says to me once a week so i hope that theres space for us to talk about the ways can help each other make irresistible but actually really like talking and thinking through the ways we hold each other up as writers, but also, i just needed to be reminded that all of us writers are also readers and mr. Really community too. Like you know when i couldnt get my first books published, you know i created a blog, right . It was black readers and primarily black women readers who showed the world that there was a a market for the stuff that i was to create. And in new york, publishing as, i often do, you know, follow that like that. The reader sensibilities of folks who they hate, like for so long, like disregarding. So i just want to just, you know, talk a bit more we can today about the importance of the black reader in all us black writers and the importance of black readers and getting all of us over in some form or fashion okay, we absolutely can do. And will go ahead to actually briefly good anecdote with the go in dressed directly what youre saying i worked at essence when waiting to exhale came out and i, i, ill never forget it only because i it is it happened. And this is a complete side note. I knew Terry Mcmillan slightly before that because she lived upstairs for me before. She got famous. I know wild. Move. Is this really undistinguished building with my roommate at the time, which she helped us navigate the city. And then shes like, oh, i was book coming out. And then she mailed all these postcards about the book and that was mama. And she admitted, you talk about having a blog, this was way before the internet. She was really maybe the first or among the first black writers who is really intense selfpromotion. And she just literally how many of postcards down the stairs to the post office to universities so thats really how she got her book out there thats how she got teaching job out west and left new york. Then disappearing acts came after, but which you know also many black black readers especially black women but when waiting to exhale came out publishing had not youre talking about how they bring up the rear at that time probably hard for you to i mean nothing there was an i mean we have a long leery tradition but but in terms of pulp fiction, you would see black women reading on the train. There was nothing and the response to that book going to her readings were like talk about, spiritual city spirits, moments or meetings. It was really i just ive just brought that, you know that like that thats a perfect comment because. On one hand, as a literary scholar, im talking about example bambara in some ways is kind of complex, you know, you know, i channeled my work through and monica, i think you might be familiar with. All of you may be donald, matthew whos honoring the ancestors and he talked about the power of the spirituals. And i sort of use that to create this. What i see bah bah doing is this sort of spiritual wholeness, dynamic family, faith, feeling freedom, right . And if you think about of, you know, afroamerican literature. Yes. A lot of that is there. But whats i mentioning that to talk about my work with, bambara as a writer who title of my the literary study is black people are my business thats our business is the everyday common folk right and that there is theres nothing fanciful or of a some kind of recipe for, you know, how do you liberate or heal or move Nation Community or other than it is, the voices of it is the actions. All of the people she saying, okay, let me show you all those people like martha you like. Okay, let me show you all these these people and and people act and you see that another that like even if you look at the short stories from her and other countries use her as an example of my love the sea birds are still alive it begins with people just this constant emphasis on getting right with yourself right now you cant have a healthy relationship with another person if you dont have a healthy relationship, then you have a healthy relationship with yourself, another person. You can have a healthy relationship in your general community. Then if you can have that, then you can talk. Start talking about nation building, right . So shes looking at this black folks. Okay, lets put this back now. Lets talk about what are steps women have healthy relationship with each other. You dont have a relationship with other. And whether youre heterosexual or whatever, we still need to have harmonious relationships with each other because that takes me to my next question, asking you to comment and the layman talk about this in one of his interviews, which kind of made me think about this as i was thinking about everybodys work, which is that racism often causes for black folks. Were other, we consider bad undesirable, blah, blah, blah, blah. And this becomes internalized, right . So layman, in an interview you said that the strategies we seek combat racism often lead to traumas when the perpetrators neglected. And so what immediately comes to mind in fiction. For me is that there are many instances where this is the case. Martha talked about morrisons the bluest i. I think also about alice, the color purple in the third life of rage. Copeland Richard Wrights native laying in your all heavy. So any all of you all if you maybe weigh on this the question ive got a piece of it ive been setting up but why why is that the cause of this ignored why is it so important to call it for you . Why is a cause of this so important . And why is it important it out . Or are you i mean, its hard to be i must say briefly. It is it is it is it is very hard, especially i think those, of us who deal with words to deploy honestly and sincerely to describe not just what we are confront it with, but the dastardly meanness in us, in all of us. I mean, i just think that thats an asset thats a beautiful because in some way it is so simple. It is it is tremendously hard to look at the harm that you have inflicted and the harm that you have way to waded through. And i think thats why often sometimes you know we need books in order to to to describe thing that being that were confronting anything of us that is its helping is preventing somebody else from going quote unquote forward a progressive but im going to say in my own work, you know, its kind of tough because like im someone who believes in revision over and over and over again, which means i believe that nothing is ever done. But i can sometimes get into this trap where i actually have waded myself through some sort of, you know, something that was in my way. But because i dont believe that i am worthy getting on the other side of it. Ill get back on the other side and try to look at it again and describe it again and turn it around and all that make that can make for some, you know, luscious art, but it cant make for some for makes was really hard to sleep, do you know what im saying . So i love that i love that question because it asks us to confront the possibility that that you know like looking at that thing youre asking us to look at like is is what we owe readers but sometimes i wonder if we ourselves are ready to do the the confronting that our art and our talent has necessitated. We do. I dont know. So i just wanted to take that in that way. So i appreciate question. Martha, you want to weigh in . Well, i think what comes to me, which kind of answers your question and also respond is to, you know what, martha was just saying about i was, you know, writing, thinking, how do i heal the people . Youre telling this story . And that connects with what saying casey about black readers for me is, you know as a religion person is like, well, whats the spiritual practice gets us . What the spiritual practices that get us to liberation. And of them, i think one of the first ones is testimony is right, which is really just telling your story. And its like that simple whether youre doing it in a religious context or not in a religious context, theres something incredibly and spiritual i think about telling your story, especially when youre from a people who where traditionally no one wants to hear your story right. Or your traditionally silence where you youre just not allowed to tell you a story to say, oh, no, im telling my story and i want to read the story. Right. That most of us became writers because we were readers. We finally saw ourselves in a story that somebody told and that healed us, you know, you know, the first time you read a character, if you went through the American Educational system, you read a whole lot of stuff that you didnt relate to. Why are and jane walking up the hill again right. You know, i because a lot of stuff youre reading that that isnt our story and then you get to whatever that book was right . Whatever that text was, youre like there. Thats my family. Thats my people thats what i, i know. Its like you write something because you havent your story. Like, ive seen bits and pieces it but no ones written about this and i want to write it because i was looking it and i couldnt find it. And then someone else reads it goes, yeah, me too. Right. And that there to is healing, right. That part of what gets us free enough to tell that story and sometimes story stories about you know racism and sometimes its not right. Like sometimes, you know, were like. Morrison im like, im writing a book that doesnt have to do with white people, right . Its just about our own stuff. I think about gloria naylors, mom, day, day, sambo, white people. But theres still healing that must occur, right . You know, theres plenty. I know. Me, too you know, and its so good it would go ahead. So really the power, right. Is being in the earth. Shes being i mean, thats all black religiosity to me. Right . So shell get nothing to do with white people, right and then there are other times when youre like, well theres some good guys and some bad guys. Ray and youre, you feel that very clearly. Of course, until you write me when i wrote my memoir, faith in my head, there are good guys and bad guys, but like my side and the bad people. And then when i wrote was like, oh, look at that. You know, like there are no heroes there. Theyre no villains. And that the way my leo imagination like to write so. But i think that that tested by not of the stories are hard stories are Great Stories is a big part of what heals us and what sets us free is when able to see ourselves right, whether as a reader or the writer in those stories. Yeah, ill jump in to say never having written a memoir i dodged somebody. Although i dont think its like i guess because in fiction you actually end up working with the same material but a different way of. You know, what you said about the death deadliness in us. Its a great phrase that, really. I guess there really, because i think that, as you said youre all in agreement here. There no heroes, no villains. Theres just what people do and which can be really terrible but theres whatever happened to them that that so i think i guess i would just chime in to say i think that grappling with that and sort of finding your own way through it as a writer, a reader is just a really crucial part of our work. The one thing i want to jump in and say too about the not seeing is i want to add a little edge on to that. Of course, its crucial. I mean, i write the stories that i want to see and i dont know about any other books about blaxploitation and actresses or the latin prep school. You know, these are things that came to me. But, you know, one out, my love of film, one on my prep school experience. But i also like one of the characters that means the most me or make the most of the child is. I mean, there were two things when i read the bluest eye, i remember throwing across the bed. It was so good i couldnt believe it. But i read that i was in college and but whereas when i was ten, i read this book, harry the spy, which is about a white girl living on the upper side in cleveland. So i couldnt even imagine where she lived. Her life was anything in the detailed way, but sort of spiritually. I her so i just wanted to say that even that i wanted to complicate that idea that of course, you know of course we cant just have and jane. We cant just have like, oh, we cant just have one kind of story and that its possible and i think important to. See, feeling or large this or im not sure what the word is in stuff that isnt a direct reflection it like i now heres another side note for example my family not a great migration family, they came north. I mean, they got north when generations before my mother was born and came down from canada through upstate new york. Yeah, but you dont hear about much when and so even my relationship to some of the narratives they are presented as our narratives you know and having relatives down south and so theres no good bad to that its just its just you know, its just i keep doing this by hand because its just bigger, you know, so that and i love you pointing that out because i think i agree that like you can see parts of yourself, right . Maybe you were like a little harriet spy story as a young person and thats what connected you with you write. And i now think like you know, for my daughters generation, maybe that was a smidgen than her. There are these little white kids who to see doc mcstuffins and they see themselves and danis stuff is yeah right so to me its that you know its not that we always have to fit ourselves into someone elses narrative but that we just have. Of course now more so a multiplicity of stories in which people know for sure little kids these days its hard for me to imagine how different it is. I mean, just what theyre seeing growing up because, you know, i grew up there was jet magazine and when theres a black person on tv, it would be in the back. Of 60. And, you know, thats the it was that and now, you know blessedly that is so very different partly because of folks like you so the work so many people go ahead you know monica you you said something and i just thought id circle back to it and people have to make comments about it. But you mentioned this the concept of testify and i think about that within black vernacular are within the black vernacular experience from spirituals, work songs, symphonic blues. And of course, if you to hip hop, you listen to the people who are testifying right in this contemporary sense gospel and so and then of course, you know, the the early narratives of, you know, our enslaved ancestors or the sort of testimony of an experience that has occurred that is of, you know, who is the audience that one is speaking to kind of changes, you know, over these periods. Anyway, i just just just a im kind of throwing a very broad, vague concept out that people may either latch on to or just, you know, i can do something with that. I can do and i appreciate that because because i think, you know, said that about testifying. And when martha talked about, you know, the importance of harriet the spy, i think theres also some. In in and sincerely described describing that which weve witnessed, you know. So i grew up with, you know, all black women, my mom mom, aunties and my grandmother, grandmothers been the black is woman was beautiful black is human, most beautiful human ive ever known. And she used to go to a chicken plant, come home noon, watch the beginning and the young and the restless come back home. Watch watch all of wheel of fortune family feud. And then if it thursday, we might watch dynasty. It was friday, we watch dukes of hazzard, we watch dallas. This is the black woman i knew who was not allowed to testify at her space right church. The black church. Although that black church belonged to black women, they couldnt testify there. So they had this called whole permission where they would get together. Different sisters house every week. And, you know, grandmother, they would get together and they would start a liberal and then they would take it out to the porch and and so much of like my steady just comes from witness seen my grandmother testify around surrounded by really a cipher of her sisters saying that she could and would never say at church but that broke down. The women who were listening enough that they would then testify and i was outside. I was inside the screen watching it happen, but i think that like i can say, theres something healed there was immense, something immensely healing in watching my grandmother be heard. So sometimes i think the testifying is the thing i want to focus on. At other times its like when theyre testifying and its heard particularly, i think for black women and its south, theres something majestic than healing that ive seen happen and i want to try to create that. The art that i make. Cassie, can i ask, testify like i dont know, this tradition with would they talk about i mean, what is that . That, that, that to me, what i mean, at the time i cant even for like i had the words but you know, when youre a young person and you know, youre i mean, i would go to the church to watch people catch the holy go, right . I mean, a lot of and it didnt happen that we got to be tight. Gradys out there and whole mission literally family they all collectively caught it because they were reckoning with the work of the week and the work of the week could be literally laborious. Shoot at the plant. It could be what was happening in their house with their partners. It could be like happened their children. But they were they were talking to one another and listening and and affirming in a way that they could never do at church. And i just always thought that as a kid, i thought that messed up. And as a writer, i was just like. But what happens if you bring that porch tool to literature like, can that porch be literature . And i dont know the answer to that. I dont think i like to answer that question, but thats what i mean by testimony, like they were reckoning with the work of the day in the week and they could do that reckoning because they an audience of people who were uniquely situated to hear and respond. And thats what i think we kind of do on a on a smaller or larger level and that was very much what i meant, right . This telling the of your experience right . Like. Thats right. But then of course is the telling and like you said the being heard right. Like youre not saying into the void, are you saying it to other people who hear you and believe you. Yes. Right right. Thats a big important too. So its the telling. But its the being heard, the being affirmed, the. Yeah, right. The being heard and believed. I think that is so liberating you actually the. Yeah. This is what always breaks my heart about fiction because i fiction is real like, you know, i read it and im like, no, this happened. Like there are these places like theres ive always been that way about fiction. Its like i didnt, you know, but i might know there is a place called such. And so its you believe like im dash when i see more than one picture of the on a book cover because in my head thats really how it is great so maybe the lines arent even isnt this any of course in the writing process the lines are different. But in the reading to me it isnt very much like no is real. This is what happened because nick could have all right or it didnt. Right, right, right, right. Yeah. What youre saying about. I actually do go back to more say i thought about sula and how important their friendship is and if you think of when that book was written when i know it was after lewis i like 70 234 to have that story of those friend and they complexity of their friendships because it certainly nothing without its ups and downs. But i to have that story told mean when you were talking about your your grandmother just made me think of the of witnessing for good and for ill that goes on in that in that book. Yeah yeah its a beautiful story so and i wonder martha can i ask you this . Because like your characters have become like, you know, monica talks about believing fiction is real. Like, you know, i write fiction, so i know that its like laborious. But i do think that it is real. And the characters that i love, i think the real and then they become like listeners to my stories. But im wondering like, do they do the characters that you create like, do you have any response ability to then, to get them healthy . Because as a young writer, ive often made the mistake wanting every character i introduce to be healthy. We end up 801 hundred page book in nobody to read. Right. But i wonder if your characters like they so often so driven, but they also seem to be like often working with that thing we cant see yet. So im wondering like do they do speak to you . Like are they parts of your community in your village. Yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, none of them are directly autobiographical to go to the point of is this person or whatever none of. What interests me actually to tell the truth. The people who dont get it together. Right. I mean, thats a really its like a deliberate. It wasnt i know if i want to say choice, but i just found narratively like jerome makes terrible that he does not fit at end of that book things are not fixed and he is only a little like, did i do the wrong thing in and things . Maybe of but hes not. Ill feel to go to where he did go to i think hes not in that book speaking of other sort influences was actually very influenced by. Kazuo ishiguros the remains in which the protagonist finds out he of lived his whole life with this nazi enabler basically ends up questioning, you know, what have i done with my life . And i remember seeing people even after a while when i was whereas im interested in someone who doesnt get it together. Yes. And i would say angela is somewhat similar. She finally their rapprochement at the end of that book is kind of forced on her to not let me go to therapy and work through my generational trauma. Oh and i dont know i mean that says about me for me, like there was. But i think this also me its sort of its part of the interest of, as you said humans of you know, the good, the dark and the light and of the fact that things dont always get resolved. I mean, its been interesting watching, for example, clarence thomas. I mean, we didnt have to but talk about someone who has a lot that he hasnt worked and hes working out on us every out of the country. But i actually meant to try to find this before this started, but i neglected to. But there was an article in the times years ago about him and sonia sotomayor, who grew in similar poverty, but her mom was on her side. Her mom just her mom. I think she was a single, just was there for her and he had no one is accused and. You know, hes dark. People are mean about that. Just everything. And you could just see you know sometimes not you dont have to turn out like him partly and sure but you know. But you also see the weight of not having a place to be healed, to work out, to mean i dont want to look at them psychologies a little bit. But i do think just to go back my own point about healing and not and and where it fits into my work what we all know about people is they dont always get healed. They dont always work it out. They dont. So while its important to make that effort in our lives, the lives of those we love in our work also know i say i want to be a voice them not even a voice. Thats interests me. I dont know what else to say, but its what america is because he actually must be able to read my mind screen, because that was my question, which was to ask you, mark, about how theres no neat and tidy healing in your work. And then i was going to ask him to also touch on the imperfection of healing, but he. I mean, what i love about it though is that thats why we have the right, you know, making a way to know healing its a even though were using now, theyre not solid right. Their processes or things that were i mean and you did it so well and toni kate salty toes especially like a process and i kind of working on it right. Its more of an activity perhaps you and jared, both of that, the health of the community, its healing. I like it. If something there isnt one, theres that. Always a happy ending. Although were aiming for one, but were not. The end isnt the end. I mean, thats why we get to keep writing it, because were not at the end and always a kind of activity or ing or striving. So to i think that is part of it. So even if you made one way, you still got more ways to make right now. Like you get one done, youre like, oh, that was great. Now we can die. No. Right, right, right. Yeah. Its something were kind of always doing, you know, i think about i worked in my first job post with a historically black college and that find a way or make one was just such you know that the be that i could always could see very clearly in almost every of my work there because its not like it stops right were always finding ways, right . Youre always ways were always kind of in this process, which means that its done. It doesnt tie up in a bow most of the time. Right, either in your or in our writing. Mm mm hmm. Yeah. Okay. Good. So i want to excuse me. I want to ask a question that. Will pull on. Marthas or girl from the left you broach generational healing and interconnections and part of that healing from Community Trauma is situated in a historical event. Tulsa oklahoma massacre, right . I call it prior to this in any age. But could you talk healing and the use of this historical event as a catalyst to black trauma and generational healing, healing and communication . Right. And. I can say, if you could also talk about how in language you deal with this this notion of, historical trauma or impulse katrina. And then monica, you know, feel free to weigh in. If you if they hit a chord that that resonates. Okay. Okay so well i think i mean some. This in was it goes without but i think one thing that is so harmful i mean that like the interesting thing about tulsa as an event is the degree to which it was completely hidden for many years you know many years and then through the work of historians, black historians in tulsa. Like by the time i wrote that book was work to look at in it wasnt like it is now, but there was it wasnt a secret either when mentioned it, i knew what hes talking about, but then i had to go look stuff, you know, it wasnt like, boom, i know that is. All right. So almost through the graduate wall. And of course, there were many other like that at that time, too. I dont want to hold up. Tulsa is the one, but i using that event is an example of how the feeling was really like from inside. Literally, i dont know who was the first person who was like, yeah, this happened or, you know, elderly who lived through it and started telling their story little by little because. Its really, you know, put down. It was a hit. The story was hidden and this sort of you see how long its taken its still not healed but we see how long its taken for that flower sort of emerge flowers around where its right. But but for that event to start being processed through even as it was first book i write about came on 2001 its 2022. So i guess all im saying is its a it takes a lot of generations, you know, its not an immediate process, not a neat process. Its not necessarily solvable process because there is so much. Trauma out there. I feel like theres actually a risk in theres a little bit of a risk in. I mean, like you said it is healing. It implies ongoing, but almost a risk ambiguous, a finite. I dont know that theres going to be an end, partly because life, partly because of black life in america and the amount of trauma inflicted upon us as well as as human beings that, you know, the desperate leanness in us. I bit what i was what i wanted to do in that was sort of just show these women kind of coming together through art through tamras art. And thats actually something i must thank morrison for the notion our art, when im mildred he has the fall in love with you. Jacob lawrence. And he has these paintings that she that was very much inspired by sula in and to misquote it. But the phrase we all know about a black woman not having art form but my other sort of theme in that the notion of a kind of art longing to do it but not being free to do it. Angela trying be successful in a business that was just a mass and then and then. Tamara, a filmmaker, is sort of a way of expressing that process. Its sort and they making a film about tulsa sort of an arc of trying to with that. So thats one way ive tried to deal with it in my work. Its but its ongoing, you know, its ongoing we keep saying in its the right direct and the limit can you think about the division how you play with that idea of historical event a catalyst. Yeah you know and i can can flip it a bit to, you know, i think of Long Division with what i was to do was and im still trying to do is think through the ways that you know this different generations of black children you know deal with the trauma of being written, the face of the earth by the nation, right . Having their interiority written out to face it are being incentivized in school, write themselves off the face of the earth, in to to to matriculate. And then when they talk to survivors of this trauma, which are parents, village members, these loving, caring people, just want to tell them how to survive when they want to talk about pleasure and the trauma of trying to not get yourself written off to face the earth and and so, like a lot of my book is about like. Yes, well, black folk in central who dont have the wherewithal to hear from these Young Children precisely like what their insides are screaming. And the consequences of that. Right. Which lee my kids are going into the ground and try to create together because they we have to find older people who who can hold their weight. Right and so thats thats what i was trying to do. And actually, i think thats im still trying to do in my in my like, how do you bring that black interior to the forefront when all us, every black human that i know, especially every black american human i know is dealing with a truckload of trauma and truckload of pleasure, and sometimes i think we skip the processing part of like talking about what it is and just jump to heres how you heal generationally. I dont think that with adults and i definitely dont think it works children sometimes i just like to try to get in kids hands and see what theyre actually thinking and feeling. I think we neglect that a lot. What you know, i jump in and this is new. Go ahead. Go ahead. The religion part of me, too right. Because i think that when we start to talk about that, you know, its somehow spirit and faith comes in there in some way. Right. And i mean, partly with the trauma, right. And i mean, i kind of write about that without using that terminology course in my book bipolar faith. Im like, oh, this is my fathers story, my grandmothers and my great grandfather story. And im not saying thats a direct im not saying there isnt. Right. You know between how we experience what now might be classified Mental Health challenges but that theres always its like but then its spirit that somehow begins to heal us right and there are of course our beliefs particularly many indigenous traditions that that its possible right, that the present can heal the past right in that because we dont have this strong line. You see for futurism as well. Theres not a strong line between the past, present and future, right . Not just because theres time travel, because if you believe in ancestors and you believe in thinking about the future, then you dont have the linear time that one might think that one had and that there whether youre in a tradition that says these the actual practices we have and the actual rituals we have that can heal the past, or youre like, you know, as we honor the past, as we tell the stories that is part of the healing, right . As as we unearth right what has been quieted. That is part of the healing and that were healing our past and were healing our future, our future generations. Right. Well, since youve talking, morrison, martha makes me think my favorite Toni Morrison book, which song of solomon ray, which has so much of this kind of healing narrative in it. And i dont know if is correct, but for me, the story the flying africans is religious right. Im sure its cultural. And you culture, religion, you cant just pull them apart easily. But i read that is like this is what people believe, right . And so of course its true. And this is, you know, how milkman gets healed, right . By going back to and healing this part of his past. So to me, yeah, were calling on all we got right. Ancestors, our faith, our spirit. And even then the telling right. And thats part of what what is healing us and how were healing our future. Not for this perfection, right . But to at least have it better than the past, better than it has, then. Yeah, i thats why the black arts moment. So important and i think many more writers and scholars need to examine that moment of, you know, on a vastly engaging aging the very innards of the beauty of black of black life. And this rhythms and culture because. Its so rich and it begins within and and it begins with the self. It begins with your immediate ancestors and this sort larger ancestral idea you. See that happening in, you know, a work like praise song for the widow and, you know, you see even eager white men or, you know, of course, we all know more since, you know, theres this kind of work. But then also, you know, rethinking our past and sort engaging it as well. You know, i think women philadelphia fire think bambara with those borrowed you know like lets dredge this back up and lets really reexamine you know whats going on and figure out why, you know one thing people dont think about with work like with those bonds on salt either is that theres a there theres a cautionary tale that shes giving us. And so and shes not alone. But this idea of we broken a covenant with our community, with our ancestors, with ourselves and were looking and weve lost those connections. And so the people, the salt eaters, the is broken, the relationships are broken in those bones the the community has lost its greatest attribute, which is its children because we have moved beyond the things that began to move the community forward. In bambara say, hey, listen, you know, we have to pull back and examine it and then hear those individual voices. And so and so i thats why i asked about the historical because you know, martha, youre you you say, okay, lets go back to cleveland. You know say you say lets you know, lets sort of return hear what these people saying. Well, even our own family and communities and understand because this is what this is theres nothing super magical. This is what begins that process of knowing self and moving forward in these particular spaces. So can i just throw i just want to give a better shout out to mama de asia series goes to what youre saying but also think correct me if im when i go i feel like its not read that anymore or discussed or anything. Am i wrong a little bit if you i think youre right. I mean, to me, i love day know its like my fave you know my favorite gloria every day you know is my day and im like, this is where the are. Yeah you know what the reason bring it up. Its relevant to your voice. I love it. But but because its about this young woman who la and goes to new york whos like a family on the sea islands. I cant it i mean she tries to sever as hard as she can and in her voice and then husband is from these from Staten Island he just he has no he has no is no community. I believe he actually is an orphan. I read it in a while and then he ends up going back with her. And i dont want to give it away, but they get they get more pulled heritage in everything that they and lots of things happen but it just to go to your point. The community the way naylor grapples with community in that book i think is really beautiful. And i was also just glad to hear somebody bring it up because its wonderful book. And i think it is little red these days and. Id be happy to give it another shoutout shoutout. Great book. Yeah. So yeah, i just wanted to say that. And then to your point, theres the often quoted part of sula where you knew hannah asks her mother about did you ever play with us . And the mothers like, you know, no, i stayed alive for you right . So which, you know, morrison just, you know, just drives at home and this scene so brilliantly. So when you what you were saying, i thought of that moment in that book as well the q and a is going to start soon but. I want to move really quickly a little rapid fire because i have some final question. Ive got a million questions, but i want to sneak in a couple because community probably has quite a few. I was wondering as Community Questions are about to filter or filtering in if if you could talk a little bit either you the contemporary direction or rather what should be the direction of africanamerican nonfiction or fiction in terms of, you know healing the souls of black men, women or black women or black men . And then you know, maybe you can use your own work or the works of others to what you could talk about, what other writers have done. And i think about people like, you know, immediately i men bob weidman. Baldwin. Have done perhaps explore how this differs from what you or other writers are doing right. Well mhc youre from ukiah because i think theres a theres a generational thing. I know the generational difference between us and im actually find it really interesting. So i can you talk a little bit what you think about it . Oh, i yeah. I mean, i can talk a little bit, but i know if i can talk with any acuity about it, like, i mean, im, im im amazed by what new writers, new published writers are doing. And i think important that we talk about new published writers as opposed to talking about young because when i think about the books that like, like, like stunned me the last few years, i think about the prophets by robert jones, which could fit right into conversation. The secret lives of Church Ladies by this ofelia when you know we about mama day listen i mean that that like almost a direct descendant of that book and and that book that is a book of short stories but you know its its focusing on black women who are church, quote unquote, Church Ladies. But it is uncompromised. And looking at the layers of layers of layers of layers that like make these women before and after they go to church. And its so, so, so, so what im trying to say is i think that we see i see is writers who are older than i am, who for Different Reasons like a new york publishing wouldnt have. Now i because its just go back circulate you know, of like support from other readers and writers because of reading communities have found their stories now you know on the front page of black americas writerly sensibility is and im just really happy for that. You know, like i see stuff being written that i know baldwin and morrison, for example, influence that could not have gotten published five years ago. And i think thats because i mean, im a matter what i think, but i just want to say, like, those are of the prophets and secret lives of Church Ladies that are just stunning books written by by the authors that are, you know, not quote unquote, 2230s or anything like that, but it still feels fresh, partially because the industry would not have listened to that story five or six years ago. And those people demanded that their story be heard. So i just i think theres a lot of examples of that, and i really love when that happens. Yeah, i agree, i mean, i think, you know, seen a number of of waves through the industry know younger the wave. Toni morrison essentially both with her writing and her work as an editor, its so great to hear people talk about that now. I didnt even how amazing she was as an editor and honestly, the number being toni bambara but did not appreciate how much she had done as an editor. And then there was sort of a rumor and then and then you know, there was post mcmillans sort of pulp thing, which again many, many, many of those books have been forgotten. But there were believe me, there were a million. And then but this period, i think because of pressures of black lives matter and publishers feeling like we better deal with this, i think. But i also think there has been a genuine opening up not across the board, not as much would be, but there has been to. I mean, i can say i see this myself in has been an opening up to a greater and will include you in that multiplicity of voices. Thats exciting to see some writer, some as you said, not necessary young is now as they age. But the the work that were doing okay were going to shift into a little bit of speed round mode because we we have questions the from the audience and i want to make sure that each of you respond and that we broach every question so the first core question is if each of you if you feel compelled at least a couple of you could respond quickly to we have a question from i think as be that the is how do you suggest that we get the black community to read our books that we are writing that benefits our community. Part one of that it seems that other communities will read our material before older people. We. May i think that i mean one you got to write to the people you want to you and sometimes i mean im not trying to be antiquated sometimes you got to feel that ikea bag full of your books and you got to go to where the people are. You know, i think about oh, i mean, i used to take my books to, to the barbershop shops, to beauty salons and, and give readings, you know what im saying . And meet people much more importantly, to give readings, meet people. But i think thats a large think. The question is about something larger. But i do think you have to meet you have to go where folks see what they want and then decide if you have something that they want and then that thats thats all kind of like transactional happen. I think. Yeah. I mean, thats i its kind of amazing that you that too. I never did but thats how i the late Evelyn Harris used to drive around in this car with the trunk full of. These books you sell atlanta and you know. Yeah thats just sort of our carry it her bags of postcards you know this was all preinternet but now you said use blog as well you know, using the internet and which i barely understand but you know what . You know, if you can get an audience on air, its an incredible yeah i guess what i would say in to that question is there are other means and its a lot of work. Its the thing, its a lot of work. So have to be ready to do a lot of work. And in went relationship to that kind of granular work varies and i think you have to think thats a complicated question but yes to extent its just like know and i agree with both of you and i think id also add the hard thing about writing is that once you throw it out, that you cant control the audience. Yeah, right. Like its out. You cant how people are going to interpret it, right . Like you just you throw it out there and then you go oh right. A little bit. You know, you dont have that kind of control, which is both scary and at the same time. So you can market in certain ways the, way youre saying, but in some other level you cant you dont know whos going to love your story and you dont want people not love your story. So or be mad that someone it who you didnt think was going to like is way better than people hating it. I and so me thats kind of the risk of publishing is that once its out there its there was a great point i mean i like that because i used to work at the world press in the nineties and i just remember in the it was a point where a lot of black omar tyree you guys about you know those were getting picked up because they were hustling on their own and you know, and theyre like, okay, well take them because they got hustle and you know, you have to walk down and work it and you know, you all are these spaces and casey, casey, you are youre doing this work around promoting literacy and writing and thats generating a of of writers, of people to understand the power of writing and and more people getting, you know, becoming involved. But i like your comment. A writer can can i ask what work are you doing around literacy . Oh, we started an initiative in mississippi after my grandmother called Kathleen Coleman literary arts and justice, where we really would just go in into different communities and, and and giving them an opportunity to take part, writing workshops, students and, and their parents and then having in those particular communities trying to just bring that idea of not try to bring the mfa, but like the positives of the workshop and great because i think some of us feel like theres value in that, you know, what have you to different places in the state the way when you already had seen it you know okay one of the questions is a great segway to your last comment of based martha sparking a question which is the. One of the questions is we we know that healing can in multiple forms besides writing what is some of the things you can do to heal or that you do to heal . What some of the things you do to heal. So i cant wait to hear this myself. Are some of the things that you do to heal the. I watch millionaires in shorts play sports like i i remember when that when the pandemic happened and and i wasnt going to be able to watch millionaires and shorts play sports anymore like i literally like a kind of sadness i had which, which is terrible, which is terrible and everything else. But, but, but i need some other kind of things to help me heal because now just watching lebron and the lakers lose is part of my process. And i dont care at all. I know i have to follow it because im from cleveland. Okay. So and i am not a huge fan, not against it, but im not like a crazed fan of billionaires and shorts. But the reason in chicago this weekend, as opposed home, is to see this play at step. And wolff called king james is about the fans of it inspired the playwrights and cavs fan its inspired by two fans of lebron james so i to chicago to see flag so i guess i understand the love and that again the thing about lebron james is the figure is particularly complex yes so so yeah i guess i just love that you said that and i dont you should feel bad. But i think that theres many layers, particularly again, with basketball, with the layers of culture and race and, all you dont feel bad. You should never feel about it. You love anyway. Okay. But i think basketball is a great game and its to watch in no i would feel lost i love roller skating and when rink closed i was really sad that is a healing thing. I have a therapist im for that okay i was in therapy for many. I like dancing. I mean i actually think i have to stay as a writer. Im still looking for Something Like this. I think its good. Do something thats not writing related. Yeah, i have not developed like. I sort of want to learn to knit or something, but to to get out of your hand a little bit, i think can be good where i think i could be stronger is in community developing its 21 or 2022 goals especially after the last two years. They really hold up and because i havent had a major work of fiction published in a long time, i feel like im a little of the loop. So a place i could use some healing. But yeah, i sports roller me. Those are my favorite. And i do like reading. I enjoy reading a work on an essay now that just kind of popped out of my head after the oscars. Well see how it goes. Maybe. Do you go to the skating rink or do you just skate outside . Oh, no. Im lucky in brooklyn, there is a beautiful outdoor skating ring near right where if i if it wasnt there, i wouldnt skate. So. Well, too many people, not too many people know its spectacular and im just very lucky that its there its impressive. But yeah, all the rinks are closed. Yeah. As you said. But theyre mostly gone. Yeah, im, i, i guess i would say i heal in friendship. Its a big place for healing for me. And hopefully i offer that to my friends as well. I heal, in embodiment, whether thats dancing or exercising, exercising i dont really like, but it still helps me. So things that are in body i can in my head really easily. So the things that get my feet on the ground are very healing for me. And i would say if you kind of mentioned this, martha, but creating beauty in ways that are much more immediate than writing, right . So when i was working my dissertation, i took things like making jewelry because you can kind be done in about 20 minutes, you know, or i started to knit. You can, you can be done right . And even when you do something wrong, it just shows that its made by humans, which is more valuable. If you drop a stitch its like, look, the made machines dont make mistakes do and or for me probably now cookie right because thats the way i can kind of create beauty and. I enjoy it within about 20 or 30 minutes, right . So things that, you know, ways in i can get a little bit more Immediate Gratification and making something thats beautiful. Mm mm. I love that a yeah. Oh someone asked, peggy asked what about. And art therapy for healing. So how if people want to respond really quickly. Sure. Yeah i do that. You know, im one of those brothers now. I used to always wonder, i always say those who drive to the park the dog park, you just see brothers. They lean at a 45 degree angle and they just, you know, they just in the car, you know, like i during a pandemic, i became a brother, like, who just drives my car, the dog park, listen to music and watch it and just watch dogs that are mine. That that brings me joy for some reason. Yeah. You know, i think know if youre talking about Music Therapy as a, you know, like a, i mean, as a thing and yeah, great. I mean, ive never participated in it, but i guess. I think sometimes i think us writers get held up as like know everything and we dont. So i would say to this question, of course, i think these are great modalities to use. I cant say more than that about them not participated myself like well know i think what i like about them. I agree with you talking in the formal sense of those do like arts therapy is a counter counseling modality but thinking about again about how children dont art is particular about like no one says oh i cant color or i cant finger, i write or im not good at this. They just sing. They just make art right. Even if you know. And so to me, i try to like, how can i channel that where im not judging about how good i am at something, what just living in it and enjoying it. And for me, thats healing when im not performing right or thinking, oh, that could be better. Oh, thats not as good as somebody else. But everybodys singing the song, so im singing the song right or everybodys got a paintbrush in class or ive got a paintbrush and i think as writers you do a lot of, oh, this isnt right. So something where youre not doing it right, you know, youre not going to revise it, youre just going to be writing for publication. You really want to get whatever it is you want to do with your particular work. Its a lot of like, you know, is this right . So i very much agree with you about stuff that you cant that you dont. I think its really important. Yeah, im im going to ask im going to shift just a little. You know, we are in this moment of what i think sort of fledgling hope for young people in of high because of lack of Job Opportunities education housing crunch lack of social interaction of covid, high debt. The shift from to trump right. And so i want to lay all that out right. So what would you what would each of you say to, young people, about making a way in the present moment . Monica well, you start well, i guess what do i say to my young person, right . My honor. Nine and you know, the big thing is, you know, you can do whatever you want to do is that whether or not technically true, i dont know. Right. Because shes nine and i kind of facilitate that she does ness of her life but this sense in her that shes not thinking i cant do x because im a girl. I cant do this because. Im black. Like she doesnt think that. And when she sees it come up in the world, shes like, that is injustice. And thats not right. Wow. So this very deep sense that like, she should be able do all the things and that being a girl, being africanamerican, being, you know, vegan, being a kid with dreadlocks, that has nothing to do with her ability to do all the things that she wants to do and that and knowing deeply right that to say otherwise is wrong and i mean, i think i think kids i think young people have visions of health. You know, whether those visions are what we would consider like healthy or not, thats a different question. But i just think the question of like, how do you want to be loved today is something that we ask young people or old people enough. How do you want to be . And its a very like corny question, but i think the answers to that switch begin the conversations we have with people. How do you want to be loved today . And ultimately, like how what can do and how do you want to love and i think thats thats something we should ask our young people much more often. Yeah i cant really anything to that i know really i thats beautiful and i go it my kids are in their twenties and its time to be in your twenties before you let my daughter had a Virtual College we werent able to be there know and there are millions of worse losses but i think to be coming into your adulthood in a time of such chaos and loss and difficulty, then how do you want to be loved today . Question is, when i got to stick in my back pocket because i think what ive had to say to my son is, you know, are you going to do anyway, even in face of all this terrible stuff . Yes. Climate change is real. Yes. A Million People have died. You know, i dont you cant, especially with them. They see going on literally. And theyre about to theyre entering adulthood into it. And so our conversations are more like what, can you do to take care of yourself anyway . What can you do to move forward any way its any way, you know, working towards change as you can, but also just dont ball up because and cause we need you and were still here. But its hard. Its really hurt witnessing. Well, kids, its a hard time to be in your twenties. I wouldnt even add to the you know, how do you want to be loved that you have Agency Request . Yes, right. Right. I have two daughters who are young adult and you know, the one thing that that i learned as a parent is and in trying have this sort of open interactions that theyre constantly dictating these are the new rules. Right . Its like new rules. These are the new rules of, okay, this is how the interaction needs to be. So im and thats how my wife im always feel like im a couple im a im two steps behind two step slope but but charging hard right to to embrace that and i think you know when we make that erica how do you want to be loved . I think its also important for, you know, our elders or those or those mentors around to take. You talked about the tony cape on bar, what her work is about. And Toni Morrison and so many other a lot of writers really forward thinking and say, wait a minute lets create new structures and create new structures so that so that those pathways are easier so that, you know, so that we can actually provide with lead. Because a lot of times people dont know what to ask or that they have the agency to make those demands. So those requests, those new ways. So that we can so that we can actually be in an in a jarring and instead. So so im trying to do some stuff. Let me let me make sure i, dont miss any other questions from the audience because as i promised, i have a plethora of, of my own right. I want to do another kind of i wonder if any people if either any of you would would would mind commenting or not. You all dont have to. And this probably the last question. Any final that any of you want to make. Im not going to do my public im just any final comments that you want to make. Im looking at the time and i want to provide the same opening or the closing that we open with, which is space for either of you to make any. I think i just want to think i could bring the green for for, for and and all in all of it a team for for for loving us like some of us before we even knew we were writers and welcoming some of us into like village that that holds us like with so much care and generosity. I just want to say i just want to say i just want to thank dr. Brenda green for this now i second that and for so many years youve done so much for the community. And i want to say what a pleasure it was to meet all of you. We could do it in real some time, but it was an honor and a pleasure to be to share space with you. I learned lot, as taylor noted, you. It is really a thank you all. They all of you. Its a really great it i would i would echo the same its wonderful being on this panel with you getting to talk with many of you for the first time besides those little trial runs that we did and just thanking the entire i mean, you know, pulling this off virtually, we know is not easy and to thank the entire team people who everyone sees and the people who everyone doesnt see, you know, who who have made this work so that we can still, you know, safely. Of course, weve been planning this like two years, right. Safely. Enjoy. You know, the beauty of black writing. Yes. Well, i quite enjoyed this moment. I have. I think i, have everyones information. I do want to keep in touch and because i this this panel has been a reflection of, i think, an idea of community and salvation