Transcripts For CSPAN2 Amitav 20240703

To be in conversation razia iqbal. Im just going to very briefly read a little bit of bio you and and then im going to turn it over just. One more thing in terms of the format of evening, were going to start with short talk that will help to contextualize the topic and the book and then joined by here. They will have a conversation and then well have a moment for q a and books, as you may have noticed, are on. And amitabh has graciously agreed to sign books upstairs. So with that in mind amitav ghosh is the author of the bestselling eves trilogy, comprised of sea of poppies, shortlisted for the 28 man booker prize, river of smoke and, flood of fire. His other novels include the circle of reason which won the prix de im sure im going to mangle this. Im not even going to say it, but glass palace, hes the author of many of nonfiction, including the great Climate Change the unthinkable and, the nutmegs, curse parables for a planet in crisis. And again i think hes able to frame something in such powerful ways he holds two Lifetime Achievement awards and, four honorary doctorates. In 2018, gauche became first english language writer to receive the guy and pete did i say that right . No. But hell forgive me. I dont know if you will. Indias highest literary award. And he lives in brooklyn, new york. Rosie iqbal has been a journalist with bbc news for more than 30 years, most as the main anchor for news hour, which has millions of listeners on npr. She recently left the bbc take up full time role at the school, public and international affairs. Princeton university, where she is the john l. Y. Coleman sachs visiting professor and. We are honored to have both them here. So now silence your phones and please join me in welcoming amitav ghosh. It was the jetlag. All right. Oh, thats very bright light over there. But. Well, its wonderful to be here. Thank you all for coming. The asia society has been a great part of my life. Ive done many events here in. Fact, you know, the journey to this book began with my my novel sea poppies, which was launched here by the late great jonathan spence. And that was a really memorable moment in my life. But thank you very much, rachel, for this possible and for having me back and thank you for that very generous introduction. And thank you, darcy. Shes a very old friend. We go back a long way and yeah, i did my first event for you back in 95, and thank eurazeo for agreeing to do this razia again has been friend since 2008. Of course, i used to hear her voice on news hour every morning when bbc could still be trusted trusted and so. And then i actually her in 2008 when she did a Little Program on my on the sea of poppies that i remember wandering around the eastern the docks with a. So its wonderful to have her in the city, really, in addition to our lives. And thank you so much for agreeing to. Do this, razia. So im going run you through some of the background to this book because it sort of is there that way. More interesting . I think so. But i got interested in the subject of the opium trade through. My book, sea of poppies, river of smoke and flood of fire, which ends in the first opium war. So this is about this is opium poppy proposal. Some some from the opium poppy doesnt exist in the wild. It actually is a cultivar that developed with humans. Thousands years ago. You know, some of the earliest varieties were found in switzerland thousand years ago. So humans have been cultivating this amazing thing, this amazing flower for a very long time because opium is an absolutely medicinal substance. Its still in many of our many of our of just ordinary across the counter medications. For example, if any of youve ever taken imodium or any other dietary medication youve taken opium if youve taken cough suppressant taken opium. So really opium sort of indispensable part of life in a sense. So but opium is different from other kinds of other kinds of psychoactive substances, not most psychoactive substances known to man are what i call grass root psychoactive, like example hashish or psilocybin or whatever, in the sense that you can just go out, you into into a forest or something, pick them up. And of course the human beings have been doing that forever. Opium is different because opium to be processed, you know, you cant just start. You cant just pick it up. You cant just pick up a poppy and use it as opium. It has to be processed. It has to be high, it has to be milked. And the latex to be boiled down and so on. So opium, unlike, say for example, or whatever. So it went through these periods when suddenly its propagate and increased hugely. And usually behind this of but its lengths a certain political structures in that sense it was a bit like what you might call an opportunistic pathogen in that it it found social and political opportunities and then sort of began to create a and wider market for itself. So the first the first great leap that opium made was in the 13th and 14th centuries under the old mongol empire because the mongol court started using opium as a recreational drug and the successors to the mongol also started to started doing this. So the ottomans the safavids and the mongols. So the emperor jahangir used opium quite a lot here. You see, preparing smoke, preparing opium in india. But the next step for opium the really big step that it took was when the europeans entered the indian ocean and. The crucial the crucial factor in was the does the docks in, the 16th and the late 16th, early 17th century started using opium in their dealings with the with the sultanate of Southeast Asia and in their in empire in the dutch east indies, they used the opium to create monopoly, to create trade monopolies of various kinds. No. So what happened was that the british followed this pattern. But a little bit later, and the british had to this pattern because of another, which was the. So they very, very important for the for the british exchequer beginning, you know, in the 17th century and then very much so in the 18th century where the british were making a lot of the taxes on tea was the second largest source of revenue for britain. I mean, its kind of astonishing to think of, but so it was so the british de trade was the exclusive monopoly of the east India Company. But the problem for the british is that they had to pay for their tea all, of which came from china. They had to pay for it with silver because didnt have anything that the chinese wanted. So in this picture as you can see, theres a i guess the representation of that of tea production. This is a similar picture by a british artist, william. These are western negotiating the price of tea in. So through as you see here through much of the 18th and 19th centuries, the tax intake for nearly a 10th of britains revenues. So, you know provided the enormous sort of wealth for the for for for the british government. Now the problem is that beginning in the mid18th century onwards, there wasnt that much silver circulating anymore because before there were these silver mines, potosi was the best known in south america, which was replacing an enormous quantity of silver on the international market. But then what happened that that this this supply began to dry up and the british had to find some other article, some other commodity to trade with the board of trade for did so because they had seen the dutch drawing market for opium in southeast. They decided to do the same thing in relation to china. So in 1763, so this was essentially the same problem that the faces in relation to china still, i mean english exports to china were almost nonexistent. What would the chinese going to do with, you know, wool from manchester or whatever . So so they had to find Something Else. And actually its interesting, you know, same trade deficit that you see today existed way back then as well so this is what the Qianlong Emperor said in a letter to king george. The you know, so. I mean, really at the turn phrase, you know. So anyway, in 1763, the british won the battle of boxer. And thats they got control of this region in the in the gangetic plain. Well, opium production. India had previously been centered around patna, the city patna. And that was most of the opium was now in 1763, as soon as the british gained control of this region, they declared a monopoly over opium and they threw all other merchants out. They took it over within a few decades. That created this very elaborate structure. Now there were two big opium. They set up a very big opium factory in the late 18th century in this in this town called ghazipur. Its a very new it was at least then a very, very pretty town. You can see. And ghazipur is a place where associated with lord cornwallis, this is the same watermark. Cornwallis, who basically lost the war of independence, of course, as always happens in the anglosphere he got kicked upwards and, became governor general of india and where he began became very active in organizing the whole opium of the whole opium industry. And thats where he lived. Thats where he died. And his tomb is in ghazipur and. How do you put opium . This is a plan. The ghazipur opium factory. This guy macarthur was the manager of the ghazipur opium factory. He wrote a little book to encourage tourists to visit the opium factory and the opium factory still exists. You know, its the longer existing industrial enterprise in india and one of the oldest in asia. Its produced incalculable wealth for for britain and for america, really. But the poor workers, the opium factory, you know, they just ordinary peasants know working away. And they got almost out of it. And thats how still is i mean, this opium factory still. And as you can see, its still just you know local people who are extremely poor working there. The other big opium factory was in the city of lucknow. And this this is a plan of opium factory, a partner. I love this particular which was painted by a guy called sitaram. He was of the patna school of not that actually was from the Harvard School of painters and you see something very interesting here. Switzerland has actually a painted himself into the picture that him down there so you know its a its literally a birds eye view because as you can see, hes painted the curvature of the earth. But whats so interesting is that, you know, hes hes painted the patna opium factory as though it were a mughal palace or something. So. Again, here you see this opium godown also by sitaram. But hes painted all the mass and all the people out of it because he was producing these pictures for thengovernor lord moyra, who later became lord hastings. So there were many other. But theres such as the only wellknown painter of the same time was also an opium agent. Thats another picture of his then later in 1851, this saw this this man, captain solo, who a military surveyor he produced these these lithographs of the opium factory. And as you can see, hes a hes again producing this producing these pictures for an exhibition then in london. So he wanted look wants to look incredibly grand. And as you can see, he succeeded. I mean, this was like the temple of luxor or something. You would think looking at it so but an indian painter of the same period also made these paintings but this is civil. And as you can see a sees it in a completely different you know hes focused all the little on the all the Little People who are working there. But again is a picture of a sitaram who did a this picture of the opium go down. I love this picture because i think ill sit around very consciously wanted to put put his picture into dialog with peter he sees the round tower which i imagine he must have seen in some british form in calcutta that im so obviously i would go down to calcutta from from patna and then from patna it would it would be, it would then be auctioned in calcutta actually that thats the building quite appropriately. The hsbc bank, thats the location. Hsbc, in fact, was founded on. In fact, by opium traders. You know, so then it would be up to china and in bengal, the opium enterprise grew incredibly fast, but at the same time there was another center of opium production developing in marlow that also grew incredibly fast. So a period of, you know, basically five years, the amount of opium being sent to china is like a small tsunami. So the chinese were very well aware of all the dangers. And then finally to, you know, to clamp down on the opium. So the emperor sent a very famous mandarin called lindsey zhou, who actually did clamp on the opium trade. The british this as a casus belli. That was when they launched the first opium war on way. You know, the chinese were basically forced to continue to import. So ill stop there and now, because they are and i will have a conversation. And this. Oh, wow, what a great crowd. Its great to be here. Thank you very much, rachel. Thank you. And thank you for that presentation top. So basically is a book about how the British Empire became narco state, how opium was used to pummel india to corrupt china and prop up the empire. Thats basically right. Yeah. Good. We can all go down. Lets lets go back to the its great to have that context that you just gave us, but if we go back to the beginning in the book, your first musings about wanting to explain this Hidden History comes from looking at the very ordinary things in your room which were connected to your love of drinking tea and the things that you drank the tea in. So just to explain a little bit about the the of impulse of this so well, you know, is the great paradox if you grew up in india or for that matter in bangladesh or pakistan or sri lanka, you never think think about any sort of cultural connections. China, you know, your connections, your cultural connections tend to be in the first instance with the west and in the second place with, the middle east. You know, thats where your linkages tend to be. You never really think of china. So grew up. I mean, you know, i grew up in the state of west bengal. You could actually see china from the state of west bengal. If you go far enough up to. But you know china i knew nothing about honestly id never even wanted to travel to china until i writing sea of poppies. But once i did go to china, my first visit to china was in 2005. And basically i went i most of my time then in gwangju. And then one day i came back, you know, to calcutta and was sitting in my study and i had this strange sort of epiphany moment when i looked at my car and i thought, why im we see china bangla and thats exactly cantonese word for tea you know and then you know theres some sugar sitting next to and thats changing, you know which means chinese and i looked my room and there was china everywhere, you know. I mean, the porcelain is chinese, which we call in bangla. My meaning of chinese art, you, you know, in our culture, no bother, you know, so. So suddenly i had this extraordinary moment when i realized that, in fact, even china was absent, as it were, from my mental, it was physically present everywhere in my life. And then when i came back to brooklyn after that, i looked at my study in brooklyn, too, and that was even more case. You know, and it was an astonishing when i suddenly realized that the history that i had been taught, you know, youve been to be taught history in terms of discursive of various kinds. But if actually look at the material realities that you inhabit as as a human being, often that different. Its really interesting hearing. You talk about the the trilogy of that you wrote and how this interest in looking at the hidden of opium came out of that it seems to me also though, this is the third book in a trilogy of nonfiction, which is engaging with the world quite a different way. Although this also a history, a Hidden History of opium. It is Something Else as well, partly because you are so strongly determined. Talk to us about the way in which opium is an art. The poppy, an art in this history in and of itself, just to explain what you mean by that, because it feels to me like that is what makes this book stand among many things. But that is one of the things that makes it stand. Well, you know certainly this idea is not unique. Me, i mean, theres an american diplomat and historian who first said, you know, the poppy if you look at the history of the poppy, get the sense that this is intelligent being you. I mean, in as much as you can imagine the intelligence in a plant this is this plant has some kind of intelligence because it constant out things rt tntrol it. You know not only that it creates these recurrent patterns. You know patterns in society, historical patterns. And we can come back to that if you like. But certainly the reason that i began to think about it, particularly is because since ive been since 2016, ive been engaged in writing nonfiction about the Climate Crisis and about, you know, historical patterns that manifest themselves with the Climate Crisis. So i wrote a book, you know, which uses the nutmeg as an analogy for whats happening in the world. And i think the more you you look at those things, you suddenly do realize that the great and terrible error that human beings fell into and they fell into this error in the 17th century, really at the beginning of the enlightenment, when descartes and Francis Bacon and everyone suddenly decided that all the things in the world were in art. And the only people who the only people who had agency so on are the human beings who had agency or, you know, any kind of historical rationality or, whatever. These were humans, but by which they actually meant only sort of elite white men who might european men, you know, because they didnt even think that, you know, white women had that kind of rationality. But so, you know, once once you realize what a terrible error this was and its the earth itself telling us what a terrible error this was, because increasingly can see that the earth is gaia. You know, it has some sort anima or spirit, you know, which is what James Lovelock claimed. So then you begin to see that actually its not just the earth are so many kinds of beings on the which have some kind of, some kind of agency, if you like i know that economy is arent allowed to say this or historians arent allowed to say it this journalists arent allowed to say it and often get flack from reviewers for actually saying this. But you know im a novelist. I get to say this even in a Nonfiction Book. Yes, i think, i think writers, novelists, we have a unique license to make these claims. And if we dont do it, who will . You know, provoke. I want to i want to go back to not so much beginning of the book, but where you where you started the complete transformation of the eastern part of india when. The opium production started because in many ways, until i read this, dont really think i understood the scale, you know, youre talking about. A million household fields. Were looking at 5 to 7 Million People who are involved in this opium production. And just describe the kinds of people who were taken on to do this for the british. So so the british set up this thing called the Opium Department and it emerges slowly from 1763 onwards. Imagine that the Opium Department, its just extraordinary. And its now well, its its finally of com in 1799 and it is it has two little parts each each of which is centered on a factory. So one part is centered on the patna factory. The other part is centered on the ghazipur factory, which youve seen. And between them they control the entire central area of the in the gangetic plain. This is a huge region, you know, its the most populous part of india. And historically it was one of the richest, most productive parts, india, all the great indian were based, became out of this region. But today we think of it as the poorest, most abject part of india. You know, with all the worst indicators, economic indicators, educational indicators, and essentially all of it can be traced back to what you might call the resource curse. So the Opium Department set up the cultivation of opium in this region was really basically a sort of lets say it like a kingdom within an empire its agents had absolute power. It had these Paramilitary Forces which had every kind of police to you to police the lives of these peasants. So there was an incredible of surveillance involved because after all is being produced its a very, very lucrative substance, but its produced by poor peasants who are always you laboring under the temptation to keep some for themselves and to sell it on the black. So they have. I mean, it becomes more and draconian. Theres more and more pressure on the on the on the poor peasants to sort of meet quotas, which the Opium Department sets up for them. And, you know, it was a kind a really if you look back on it, its a kind of horrific thing because these these peasants would producing this opium below cost, they would literally force to produce this this opium, the low cost. And this is at a time when, you know, the British Empires talking a lot free trade and, you know, free markets, so on. And at the same, its really producing this with forced labor. I mean, you talk about it in the book saying that this wasnt the free market. This founded in colonialism and what cedric j. Robinson called racial capitalism. And and its you start to make those sorts of connections that its its quite clear that that happened in from the 17th century onwards has left its residue and. The the legacy of is still or it repeats itself in different ways and that there is a direct connection between what you describe ing and the kind of global that we see today. Its absolutely true. See, i think in the liberal ideology, what i would like to pretend that you can a law or make some sort of declaration or you know and that everything that sets everything right so you know the granting of independence to india. Okay now you turn over a page and all done or you know, the end of slavery and you know thats that chapter is closed and lets let lets go ahead. But as we can see, you know, as so Many American historian have shown, the legacies of slavery very much with us, you know, theyve theyve never gone away. In fact, modernity itself is completely marked with these legacies. You know, even been modes of production and so on. So in the same way you this this of producing opium left very deep impact. It had a very deep impact across eastern india, you know, because the people of eastern india werent allowed to trade in opium was a completely it was a completely monopolistic trade managed first by the east India Company. Then after the abolition of the east India Company, the british raj, now the opium trade in india developed in a completely different direction. This is what you were talking about earlier. Malwa when when it moved to the west and there was resistance. Thats right. Now, because they invested in there, unlike eastern india, there were some very powerful indigenous states and they resisted and the british never completely succeeded conquering them. So they did was that they created Indigenous Networks of opium production and these worked in a complete different way. Much of the of the revenue much of the income that came from opium actually trickled down to, you know, to the peasants or the peasant in western india producing, opium, well, down three or four times as much as the peasant eastern india, including. So all the sort of trade and networks of western india profited hugely from opium. In fact, in one way or another, you can trace any old Indian Business really back to the opium trade in one way or another. What had happened is that it created a lot of capital, you know, in western. And i think you can see the difference to this day in terms the contrast between bombay and calcutta, for instance. Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. As i say in the book, you know, bombay got the economy in calcutta, got the economists. That they love you for saying that. Was not a good trade off. No, no, absolutely not. I mean and the kind of remnants of empire and colonial architecture and so on is still in calcutta in a way that youve got skyscrapers in in bombay. And im glad that we refused to call it mumbai. So i just want to go back to the structure of the opium because the opium agent, as you just explained to us, was incredibly powerful figure. And this book is not the kind of standard history it feels to me. Its a dialog with the past. Its also a commentary on the present, but it is also a chronicling of the the art history as youve just very very briefly told us about, i want to just dwell on a little bit because i think its just so it makes the book something that kind of head and shoulders above a kind of conventional history of the period that youve chosen and and isnt just the Hidden History of opium in that it becomes a hidden of the art history the surrounds opium. So so tell us a little bit about the research that was involved for you in trying to figure out how much documentation there was about the kinds of people who worked in the department, how it was depicted, and and some of the literary figures that you have also about i mean, briefly, but there are pretty, pretty big names that you encounter who are connected to all of this. Yes, sure. So the Opium Department, i mean there was a band called the opium agent who would be the sort of, as it were, the ceo of one section of the Opium Department and. He would have another ceo. And the other part and these were very, very grand people. They had the biggest salaries in the the colonial administration. They enormous amounts of money. And they lived very, very grandly mean they would travel around, you know the the Opium Departments territories with 10,000 people in attendance them. So it was a very coveted but the interesting about the Opium Department was unlike other aspects of the british bureaucracy they would they they would take in, you know, various kinds of office staff without examinations, you know, so it became a favorite way of finding employment for unemployed young white men, you know. So, you know, if you were sort of sort of not very prosperous, a white person in in india at that time and you had all these sons that you couldnt afford to educate, youd put them in the Opium Department where, you know, they did very well. So but also know they they had all kinds of ah, really unexpected people like for example, George Orwells father, you know, George Orwells original name was eric blair and he was born actually on an opium station in moti in bihar. And his father was an opium agent. You know, who spent his whole life in the Opium Department. And, you know, George Orwell was obviously very well informed about all of this. And he probably smoked opium when he was in burma. And so thats just one that he had. Kipling, his sort of godfather, was a man called the sir henry cabinet, who was a baronet who ran the Opium Department, and he was a he was a great sort of patron of kipling and his father and kipling, the ghazipur opium factory, and wrote an article it and its really kind of you know, i analyzed the article in the book where, you know, this whole thing he writes about it as see so often you know colonial, discourse tends to be always written in the passive. So, you know, he comes to this thing, this opium factory exists, its producing, you know, almost quantities of opium for the british. Never once does he mention that it was the British Empire that sets it up. You know, its only because of the chinese blame the chinese, you know, i mean, the demand. Yeah. From the chinese. I mean, thats the other thing. Well talk about that in a second. Sorry to interrupt you. So, you know, thats kipling then rabindranath go. He had he had a relative who worked the Opium Department and he actually spent months in ghazipur soon after his son, after marriage. And he had he took his six month old child there, and his whole family came to visit, but they never visited the opium factory. His sisters actually left a very beautiful account of their time in ghazipur. But, you know, they looked at else, but they never entered the opium factory because i think the not the girls grandfather was actually a very, very big merchant and opium trader. He traded in many things. But the opium was certainly one of them. And you to god this was the last memory for to go. I mean, he never forgave his grandfather and through his entire life he was one of those people who just unrelentingly denounced the opium trade. And that was basis of his also wanting to create, you know, a friendly space for for china inside india, which he did. I mean, the lack of the two things, the documents that youve mentioned, the description and the iconic diaries and so on, i mean, most of the the metier, really, the documents were are in english. And you didnt really find anything in either hindi or bhojpuri either . Nothing. Theres nothing in hindi or butchery, really. Theres no documentation of this at all which is why the pictures are so important, you know, because they give you an idea of the Indian Perspective on this, you know, which you dont get at from, you know, all the all the colonial records. But then again, is the curious thing that in as much as we have any pictorial documentation, it comes from company artists. Theres no documentation of opium production in western india, for example. Thats so interesting. I mean, you also make that connection when you you you pointed out the pyrenees, the picture as well and in the book you talk about how also sackler who of course. Yes the famous Sackler Family and their connection with with opioids. And so on that he put together an exhibition of piranesi because that one was first. Was that one of the first kind of exhibitions that he put on . Sackler completely obsessed with piranesi, yeah. You know, its one of those bizarre sorts of uncanny connections that see through this whole thing. So, you know, artifact lovers also a great sign of our and he he amassed this huge collection of chinese art. If any of you have seen the hulu documentary on the on sacklers, youll notice that theyre very accurate about this they present all the chinese art that there was you know in those spaces or empire of pain Patrick Radden keefe book. Yes yes absolutely. Yes so the biggest exhibition that sackler had of his office was actually at the law library at columbia. And the law library is itself named after one of the most important american traders. We with. Lo yes, i think lot of people didnt know this. They asked me to go talk to them about it. I was in the audience that day. I guess, you know, so lets move on to the American Connection, because the book is fascinating on the the the canton as they were known. Explain the American Connection in in terms of the opium trade what how they got involved also what they did the money when they came back because there continuing resonances with with contemporary society theyre two very much so so im do 83 americans were forbidden to trade with china they couldnt trade with china because all trade with china was a monopoly of these two in their company. And that was why you had the example, the Boston Tea Party and so on, because these two, the company was selling chinese tea at a big markup which created a lot of resentment and so on now in 1783 what happened is that you have this very young nation with very small economy in relation to the british economy, and they look around and theyre surrounded by british colonies that they cant trade with. So they decide who do we trade . And the obvious answer was china. So literally within within weeks of the british fleet leaving new york, the First Americans ship set off for china, it was called the empress of china, and it made a very good it made a very good return on investment. 25 was actually financed by philadelphia merchants. But once that happened, you know, the dam broke and americans began to race to china to try to to try and, you know, find some sort of commodity trade with china, its actually reckoned, you know, that in the 19th century through much of the 19th century, especially in the port cities, the major port cities, which are all the most important cities in the u. S. Are 10 of the goods in any in any household, whether rich or poor. It would be things made in china, you know, porcelain, etc. , and also often all kinds of goods made from cotton, but also iron and so on and so forth. So but problem for the for the americans was the same as the problem for the british. They didnt actually have that. The chinese wanted, so they couldnt trade with china. I mean, first they tried out with ginseng. They did. But the of the for ginseng is not very elastic. Then they tried furs, which is how John Jacob Astor got it because he was the great fur merchant and he actually founded astoria in Washington State in order to trade with china. But then again, you know, the market for furs isnt that elastic. Then they tried to seek. Campbells sandalwood, all these things. But they had they had no option. They had to turn to opium. And being american, they very pioneering and creative. So they went off to turkey and a new source of opium, and they became great pioneers of taking turkish opium to china. But again, for a while they were shut out the indian opium trade. But after the war of 1812, beginning 1815, they were able to enter the indian opium trade, many, Many American business houses set up set up agencies in bombay especially, but in calcutta. So they very much involved in this. Now, you know, what is really interesting this is that the people, the americans who got involved in the china trade and especially in were a very small they were a very small, tightly knit group of northeastern people, mainly based from all basic basically new england, except for a few from new york, mainly they were based in boston and it was a very small group of interconnected families lodges. Perkins and most of all, most notably the dylan rose. So Andrew Delano was one of the most important traders in china in the mid19th century. And Andrew Delano is daughter was the mother of Franklin Roosevelt and where all the roosevelt money came from, you know, it came from it came not from the roosevelt side, but from the delano side. The bellows were very old new england family. You know going back almost to the to the mayflower. So, you know. Essentially the entire group of people who were known as boston brahmins. Well basically opium traders and they were very closely linked to other they made vast fortunes in china through in opium. The russells, the forbes family, which is almost iconic of american capitalism itself. So the interesting part of it is that these guys would go off to china when they were 16, 17, 18, sometimes, you know, one of the biggest, most opium traders was a man called john cushing, who went out a 16 year old boy. And he was basically adopted by a very famous chinese trader called reuben jang, who was known as kwa, who was then probably the man in the world. And he made he made cashing incredibly wealthy so crushing came back to america as one of the richest men in in the whole country. And great catch because he wasnt he wasnt very so these guys came back they were in their twenties usually they had all this money and often chinese traders give them money to invest in america so they being in canton for them was incredibly important because they learned about currencies. They learned about trade, they learned about all the industries that would then coming up in europe. And they invested all their money in this stuff. So the Railway Companies were financed with, opium money. Many banks were financed with opium money. But most of these guys were so grateful and so. They gave lots and lots of money to universities and schools and, you know, your Princeton School of engineering was set up with opium money. Nothing to do with it. Nothing. Do the law library, as i said. But really, i mean, you know, i just put the Brown University Brown University up with the brown family. If theres a plaque admits that this family was a slave trading family, but also it it says the china trade you know, the china trade. Well, what is that the china trade . Its like calling, you know, that the the end of the indian cocaine trade, you know, you might as well call it the andes trade, whatever. You know, its just a its a kind of absurdity. Its really it was they were just trading in opium. And yet there is Something Interesting that the americans done the british have not which is that the trade in china has a place in american memory in a way that it doesnt in the or not quite a central that perhaps that is absolutely true. I mean, american historians have produced excerpts, documentation of where the opium money went what these did. New books are appearing every year and its been extensively documented which it hasnt been the case of the of the United Kingdom which has actually profited much much more. How do you account for that . I dont know, really. I think its because because the American Economy was a smaller economy, chinese. I mean, the opium money actually had a much impact here. So its easier in a sense. Its more its easier to trace. But apart from that, i think the british are just not interested in interest in this, you know, i mean, they wouldnt have been interested in looking into the history of slavery if they did not have such a large domestic constituency, you know, that was pressing for it. And that constituency doesnt in relation to opium. But maybe one day itll happen and the impact of course on, india and the indians who worked for the factory is chronicled by you extensively and youve talked about it already, but also on the chinese i mean, just completely disastrous in terms of the addiction i wonder about the addiction domestically, though, in india. Can you talk a little about that . The you alluded to it a little. You were talking about indians are paid so badly, but sometimes was a suggestion that they might want to make some extra money for themselves and profiteering from it. But there was so much it was very hard for them to do that. To what extent did indians become addicted to opium addiction became a very big problem in india, you know, so that by 47 it was a really, really problem. It varied region to region. But in assam, for people say that the addiction rates could been as high as 50 . So was a very major addiction in india as well. And you know, what happens is when have enormous quantities of opium circulate, some of it will always into the hands of underground networks who then go on to sort of distribute it, but for historical reasons, are the the addiction problem in india was never as bad as it in china and thats largely because in india, when opium was taken, it was generally taken as a as a tonic. You know, it was eaten or it was drunk and. This was quite common even within my lifetime you know, in my grandparents generation, it was quite common to. Take an opium pill, you know, much, i suppose its common here for people to take a cough suppressant or whatever, which also have, you know, some opiate content. But in china, it was a completely different case with china because people smoked opium, it was a much more addictive form of, you know, consumption. And it was much worse, you know, much worse for the health and on. So china really by the. By 1900 was facing enormous problems because of opium. Now, nobody knows exactly how many addicts exist within china. Its important to note that not all not all, not everyone who took opium was was an addict. Just says not everyone. Everyone who takes oxycontin is an addict. You know, in fact, its a tiny minority are addicts. But as you know, here, we didnt know within six years of the introduction, oxycontin, opioid deaths became the leading cause of death, you know, so china, too, was facing absolutely disastrous situation. You in the late 1930, 20th century. But they stuck it and slowly, you know, a Mass Movement arose, you know, an anti opium movement. Its a Grassroots Movement often spearheaded by women. And they finally, you know, this movement was a worldwide movement. And it finally managed to bring big empires, you know under control in some way. This is a subject that youve lived in a different way through your fiction and this book for many, many years. I want to ask you about the impact on you, because this is a really this is a really icult history to absorb and to live with, let alone, you know, sharing it with the world and reminding people of how vile it was and base yeah, it was terrible mean. You know, i had a lot of research that i did for the ebers trilogy, so a mountain of material, but you know, its different when youre writing fiction. Fiction, you can make things, you can make it pleasurable yourself, you know, because you experience it through your characters. You can make it funny in parts. You can, you know, you can experience in many different ways. But i did have this enormous of material and i thought, you know, i should do something with it. So after id finished writing the trilogy, i thought it was actually my wife who encouraged, me . She said, you should you know, you should do a Nonfiction Book with this. So i wrote up a proposal and i got an advance and everything. And i sat down, started writing it and. You know, after about six months, i thought to myself, i cant live with this. This is just too grim. Its just too horrible. So i actually, you know, i ended my contract so i returned the advances and i thought, im done with that. And then i moved on to other things. But then, you know, the material was still there. And i think after writing my books, you know, the great derangement and the not makes girls. I came back to this because felt that its the story that needs to be told. Its a kind of parable of, you know, whats happened to the modern world, a sense, you know, for the sake of profit, people i mean, this is actually what the chinese said in the 19th century, for the sake of profit, youre willing to youre willing destroy the lives of millions of people. And you continue to make the connections with whats happening today. You dont actually think that very much changed. I mean, it manifests itself somewhat differently. You dont have indentured laborers now quite the same way, but you are quite clear in the book that the stain of that history has bled into what we see today. Oh, absolutely. I mean, you know, if you just think about these giant Energy Corporations which knew much damage they were doing to the to the global environment, they financed the research and then they suppressed it. As we know, the but it was, again, you know, it was the the big european empires, which were then the sponsors of the opium industry, which actually invented the playbooks of what we now call denial which is, you know, blame the user you blame blame the demand they invented all these which were later adopted by the tobacco industry. And as Naomi Oreskes has shown was then the adopted by Energy Corporations. So theres a clear and direct. I have questions, but im going to open it up to audience. I wonder if we could have the house lights could be. And there are microphones that are roving. Theres a hand thats up right there in the middle. The trilogy, combined with this really do describe these vast rivers, opium moving from western india and from eastern india into the pearl river basin and canton very clearly. But as you describe them in these two remarkable groups of written material, its for me to feel exactly how opium becomes monetized because so much of the opium was because the emperor rules prohibited. You know, direct sales from these merchants in these protected areas. Canton so they had to be smuggled. These, as youve described, these crabbers, these little boats with or as that road very fast and escaped, you know, military authorities. But in that respect, how did the opium actually penetrate china and get conveyed it into cash . And that cash reverted to those merchants and know affect the balance of payments. Essentially, as youve described. Thats a very good question. So i should explain that. What happened is that the ching dynasty understood very early that opium could be a real because they were hearing back from chinese merchants in in java who were sending them very detailed of how the dutch had used opium in the dutch east indies. So the actually banned the opium trade as early as 1729. So ever after that the trade was completely criminal trade. So this was a big problem for the east India Company because these in their was very dependent on it. So to revenues it had to it had to keep on buying in china it couldnt afford to antagonize the ching of ching government at the same time needed to send it for opium in order to get the silver to trade and for chinese. So they came up with this. Absolutely ingenious subterfuge, which was that they would auction the the opium to various private merchants in calcutta, and then they would say, you know, they would wash their hands him, they would say, this is theirs. These are the private traders. Theyre free traders. They can go and trade wherever they like. So these traders would go up to the sort of doorway of of china. Its actually in the basement of the pearl river between sort of macao and and hong kong. Theres an island called linton, you know, it actually it was it was a it was a young forbes who came up with this brilliant idea. So what they did is that they parked they anchored all these vessels there. They were called hulks because they have masts. So they would go there. They would offload all their opium onto these vessels. So china absorbed chinese wholesalers, you know, smugglers and so on would come on to these vessels. They buy the opium for silver. And you, the merchants would then have all the silver on their hands and then they would go up to the first go further up the pearl river to the customs Customs Points and. Once they got to the Customs Points, they would just say opium. What opium we dont have holds empty, dont have anything. Weve come here to buy. So it was this of ingenious subterfuge that served for a very long time and thing about opium is, you know again one of the continuities see in the sort of circulation of opium. Once opium begins to circulate it can it has this almost power of undermining structures of governance, of creating these massive, you know, paralyzing networks of corruption. As you know, this has happened in america now. You know, its happened in europe. Its in america. I mean, it it hasnt i mean, the really terrible thing about this Opioid Crisis that started, you know, with the with Purdue Pharma is that it completely undermined trust in the most trusted institutions of rural america. You know, your doctor, your pharmacist, your nurse. So this is what this, again, is sort of uncanny replay of what happened china in the 19th century and. As i argue in the book, in many ways, what america is living today is really sort of uncanny or shall i say, reflection of what china lived through in the 19th century. That is, you know, opium entered it sort of entered through portals, created by other challenges until it became, as it were, a civilizational of challenge. Hello. Thank you so much. That was really a wonderful session. And i just want to preface my question by saying that, you know, your has been so important for, you know, so many people and especially those of us who are academics like, myself and studying postcolonial and, you know, writing about postcolonial postcolonialism its many histories and so, you know, the connection, the point about connections is so important because that is something that you do very unique you really uniquely well and sort of exposing racial capitalism and how its connected to colonialism, settler and so on and. Slavery is histories of slavery, so on. So my. Question and this is not a hostile, but im really i really isnt because i love your work. And so the question comes out of, you know, i actually known about this until fairly, but that you had accepted a prize. In 2007 you know, by a given to you at tel aviv university. And when you were criticized for that by people know who really admired your work and that you did not make the connection. Israels settler colonialism and, you know, the prize that you would receiving from that state and explained your reaction, you know, an acceptance of the prize by saying that you know, was no connection because it was a you private university you were not really getting it from the israeli state. But the fact is tel aviv was built on a village that was razed to the ground, the palestinians were ejected from. That right she oneness are tel aviv at that time had at least 55 technologic projects with the idf. So until now youve made social statement. You know the science of that you know so is my question is that have you rethought your position given whats happening because your work is so morally politically important and the and you know, do you see the connections that perhaps at that time you did not want to talk about . Im just curious if you had any sort of change of heart on, that particular topic. Thank you so much. Im to be honest, no, dont think ive had a change of heart. And i think in relation any particular society, any particular place you to create, you have to be discriminating, as it were. You cant lump everything together. I mean, as as Rashid Khalili said, the other you know, would anyone be justified in coming and throwing out, you know, throwing a projectile at his house because . Hes part of a settler colonial society. No, of course not. I mean, under those circumstances, would i be able to actually go to Columbia University or any other university, all of which been built upon land that has been seized from native americans. Delhi university i studied was basically seized from, you know, the local peasantry. Thats also true of Jawaharlal Nehru university. And that actually happened in my lifetime. So i do think that one has to keep some sorts of, you know, some sorts of bridges open. You know, how can you just sort of in a blanket sense, say, you know, that i will have nothing to do with with an entire society where i have many readers, you know. Yeah, my i have many readers. So how can i just say no . And i think this has become a real problem, you know, that nobody wants to talk to anybody any longer nowadays. Well. I dont know where the microphone is, but theres a hand here in the middle. Very hard for me to see the lights right in my eye. Thank you. So given all that, can you hear me . So given all uncomfortable truths that your book explores, can you hold the microphone . I think its only so you pointed, direct. So given all the uncomfortable truths that your book exposes, im wondering what youve seen any difference in the way that inside the review to discussed . Depending on where you are, the uk or here. I generally try not to read reviews because can be so depressing. I think you. Just have to learn to protect yourself a little bit. So instead you know, my my publishers send me little quotes from some reviews and it and so this is a good review. So ill, you know, put it on social media or Something Like that. But well this book certainly has been extremely sort of its been dreadful, i say with great interest in there and i get the sense that its been being its being read with great interest in britain and and here i just came, you know the book was launched in britain, you know, like about two weeks ago and it got it got an amazing even in the telegraph, you know, so you can even telegraph have got great okay well i yes. Go ahead i thank you you about the east versus west Indian Connection in the two economies. Im wondering if your goes further west to pakistan to afghanistan where the current Opioid Crisis as well as the opium belt exists, having covered the war in afghanistan, pakistan the last two decades as journalist, a once proud graduate of columbia clearly thats dwindling fast thanks to your research, the the war hasnt managed to fight the the opium factories there and im wondering if your book manages to go that further west and also figure out the contemporary crisis as far as its connections in the war on terror the taliban all of that concerned because that at that point was also a part of india. So im wondering, you stop at bombay. I you dont im looking forward to the book, but im wondering if you can explain the further westernization of opium growth, if you know anything about it. I see. Thats a sort of interesting history. What actually is that . You know, as i was saying, you know, the principalities and, the sort of Merchant Networks of western india constantly tried to evade british control and they kept exporting opium from various ports, you know, along the west coast of india, one of the most important ports at that point was karachi. And one of the reasons why the british invaded and conquered sind was precisely order to take over karachi and to shut it down the opium trade. The british decided that theyre all that all the opium from western india was going to go through bombay because they levied very heavy taxes on it and they they earned a lot of money from the taxes, opium. So they basically, you know, shut down the opium in pakistan altogether. I mean, what is now pakistan altogether . So it was never a really, really big industry in that region, at least within the colonial times. Now, again, you know, this is the thing about opium. Opium is historically since the 19th century onwards been used by insurgent groups, you know, because its a very cheap source of source of income and. Thats what actually happened in afghanistan. In afghanistan, it started happening the eighties onwards and in pakistan now, as you may know, the taliban have actually down the opium production completely in every part of afghanistan, with the exception of badakhshan which is, you know, under the north was under the northern alliance. But that that production has been completely substituted by pakistan now. So theres been a huge surge, opium production in pakistan, but also, in fact, in some parts of so, you know, basically pakistan and india are living through a really Opioid Crisis right now. You know, it passes unnoticed most of the time. But if you look at, say, for example, punjab serials on television, almost all of them are about opium, you know, and again, in northeastern india, its become a very major problem, actually opium is behind the destabilization of. Manipur, for example. So im just there. Oh sorry, go ahead. Yeah, its on. And then. And then up there. Youve written about the Climate Crisis as well as about the opium continuing opium crisis. Do you see lessons in your analysis of the opium crisis that we could use in the Climate Crisis. Yes, absolutely. I do. Because see what happened with the opium trade is that in the late 19th century, a huge, you know, Global Movement emerged, you know, it brought together groups of various kinds, missionary, but also many activist groups, womens in india, many of know of the early indian nationalists were actually the opium activists like the other by now you know who was a Founding Member of the National Congress and so on to go off as a very important voice. So, you know, they created a Transnational Movement which was ultimately able to create reputational damage for those who dealt with opium. You know and i think its possible today again to build a Transnational Movement of this kind, you know, by bringing together groups of many different sorts actually dont agree on anything other than one thing, which is shutting down fossil fuels and creating reputational damage for fossil fuels. And this is, in fact, the strategy adopted by, lets say, 350 dot org and so on. So i think this, you know, i think movement could have legs and. I think they can look to, you know, the ideal movement of the late 19th century as a source inspiration, unfortunate claim. That i think will not happen, though. I mean, i dont think they will look to the anti opium because the idea of lets say, you know, limiting drug consumption is something quite of which many liberal groups will treat as anathema. You know, its. A problem. And, you know, i think its. Youve written multiple books around the opium topic. I have no idea, of course, how you pick themes to explore, but i wonder is there is there another broad theme that you intend to get into in the years to come and write multiple books on and if there is or if there is not. Just some perspective on how you develop these arenas that you that you explored through multiple books. Well to cut a long story short, i would say that and really done with nonfiction, ive had enough of it. I just want to go back to writing fiction again. And you did that about this book. When you put it to one side, though, and then you back and i may very well go back again because yeah, i think i still have lots of things to say about especially the Climate Crisis and you know, the way in which its represented in the west and, you know, the differences are between, lets say, the global south, the global north in their responses to the Climate Crisis. I think theres a lot to said there. So maybe i will go back it at a certain point. Think weve time for maybe a couple of couple more questions. If as long as theyre shortish, you okay, great. So that up there and then one down here a ill take the risk of mentioning a californian author that may not be a pleasure to your ears but im interested your reflections on his work in relation to yours and were referring to specifically as im thinking of Michael Pollans work on opium in the botany of desire and in the connection that i, i heard in discourse earlier and polands book when i was it is his sense of the opium poppy as an incredibly powerful agent in and of itself. And this, i might say, was well before the whats called the new materialism existed as a sort of discourse and. And you two in your description of of the poppy refer to it not only as an agent but as a theres this certain something there that its is it seductive is it its radical alteration of consciousness its a haunting in poland. Poland suggests that as well. Im just simply interested in whether you have any reflections on that, that question. Thank you. And a very interesting question. I really Michael Pollans work, i think its very interesting and important work. And yeah, im completely and completely in tune with him on these subjects absolutely. Final question down here. Somebody got the microphone. Ill say, hand up here and im imagining it. Theres hand back there. I have to ask this for record. Oh, my god. You get a second question . Yes. Have you tried opd . Have you tried opium. After. Its no, i didnt hear. Sorry, i had to. This for the record, during your research and writing, have you tried opium . Excellent question. On which to end. Go ahead. You know, people always ask me this and what i always say is that weve all tried opium. I mean, we had all really i mean, if youve ever had an anesthetic, if you had had had an operation, i mean, i dont know how many of you ever had one of those. What do they call them. There was no when they do this, the spleen thing or, you know what, im the name of. It to do it, the spleen whatsoever. Im terrible. Lot on all things anatomical but you know a colonoscopy the terrible terrible awful thing but when you come out of it, you feel strangely exhilarated because. Youve been given some opium, wonderfully deflected. He doesnt deflect at all in this book. I always say this at book events that this an astonishing book. I tend not to do book events with people that i think wont like the book or i wont think anything of it by the book. Read by a second one. Give it to somebody else. Its astonishing. Hes astonishing. Thank you, thank you. Thank you. Thank thank you very much. Thankim going to quickly read e bios to jennifer strong, whos moderating this fireside chat with Frank Mccourt around his brand new book, actually officially out tomorrow, our gg