Transcripts For CSPAN2 Alvin Felzenberg Discusses A Man And His Presidents 20170521

As far away as newark, maybe farther. We are always delighted to welcome our visitors. We also want to welcome our viewers by cspan. I want to let folks in the room know that cspan is here to cover todays conversation. After doctor Alvin Felzenberg and i speak for a bit we will open the floor for q a. We will ask those who have questions to come down to the microphones that are just here. And ask your questions from the microphone. Speak right into the microphone so we can pick you up. Remember that you will be on screen as well as having your voice heard. So smile, look pretty [laughter] the Medicine Program here princeton is dedicated to providing students and members of the community with the best possible education. We believe as madison thought that only welleducated people can permanently be a free people. We want to do our part by contributing to the education of our fellow citizens. Students and others. When it comes to fundamental questions, american constitutionalism and thought. Of course Like Princeton University is a holy our Nonpartisan Organization and we welcome all points of view. In fact we encourage a wide diversity of viewpoints. We believe what many people preach but perhaps are not so strict about actually practicing as well as preaching. That is the true civil engagement of ideas. True civil dialogue. Including or especially among people that disagree. We know that in our society there are people who disagree. Reasonable people of goodwill that disagree about many many issues. It has always been the case in the United States. But we believe in common that the way to handle the agreement is by engaging each other and civic civil discourse by doing business in the currency of intellectual discourse. The currency consists of reasons and arguments and evidence. So we are proud here at the Housing Program to be contributing to that mission and by doing that we hope to do the common good United States. We are absolutely delighted to welcome back to princeton, one of her most distinguished sons, Alvin Felzenberg who earned his masters degree and his phd from princeton university. He had his bachelors degree from Rutgers University just up the road so he is new jersey through and through. He is a f the Annenberg School for medication at the university of pennsylvania. He served as the principal spokesman for the 9 11 commission. He served into president ial ministrations helped several highlevel in the 1980s new jerseys assistant secretary of state and administration of governor thomas h kane. He has taught at yale, princeton, Johns Hopkins and George Washington university down in washington d. C. He has appeared as a commentator on major Public Affairs Television Shows including cnn crossfire as you can see he survived crossfire. Cspan washington journal and altogether north more dignified place to be a commentator msnbcs morning joe we are nonpartisan. Talk of the nation and multiple others. His writings have appeared in the Washington Post, weekly standard, philadelphia inquirer, boston globe, Christian Science monitor. He has recently contributed to National Review online. A journal whose significance we will explore in this conversation. Us news. Com and political. The book that we will be discussing today was the new book, a man and his president s the political odyssey of william f. Buckley jr. This is published by Yale University press. Other writers include the leaders we deserve and if you didnt subtitled rethinking the president ial rating game which was published by basic books in 2008 and was a conversation of hours between the two of us here at princeton after the publication of that book. If you keep writing books will keep having conversations. And governor tom kane, the biography of tom kane. From the new jersey state house to the 9 11 commission that was in 2006. Please join me in welcoming dr. Felzenberg. [applause] william f. Buckley was the main man of the conservative movement. I think it would not be entirely unfair to say he was the founding father of the modern conservative movement. And yet, some of my students, i might even say many of my students perhaps most of my students including my conservative students do not really know who william f. Buckley was which makes me gasp. For many people william f. Buckley was a fixture in our homes. He was on pbs and a picture in our lives not only the lives of conservatives but liberals as well. He was a famous practitioner. The kind of civil discourse and engagement of ideas that we stand for here in the Medicine Program at princeton. His guests on firing line included not only fellow conservatives of various rights, traditionalists, libertarians and moderate republicans and so forth. But also people on the liberal and farther to the left side of the spectrum. In fact, i think his favorite guest host, subbing for him was michael kinsley. He was a famous for is a famous liberal commentator pierce a1a say a word about why our students should care about william f. Buckley. Who was william f. Buckley . First of all, is a great honor to be back in the program in this room. The inherent lectures. It is a pleasure. William f buckley was probably the most influential private transport in American History could never had a government job. He had a few honorary commissions. He got 13 percent he of course on the public stage at the age of 25 when he decided to write a book that criticized of all things his first major opponent was Yale University. They made one major mistake that i tell my students not to do. And more powerful subject should never try minor critics. Yale reacted to his criticism as one person put it out there. With all of the rigor of an elephant terrorized by a little mouse. A Young Journalist also, the founder of 60 minutes, mike wallace. Had mike wallace on a Television Show 9053. One of the first questions was why is Yale University picking on you . [laughter] said think about somebody bigger and you launched a career. In many many ways. But i would say that i did commentator, as a political figure at the time and something i discovered as a religion into the papers, as a political operative. He was second to none. The only person i could think of very close to buckley was probably frederick douglass. In the last century. And why do i say that . He was an editor. He was a writer. He formed organizations. Bill buckley was not just a columnist. Someone asked me this morning who was william f. Buckley . I cannot think of any columnist or another goes out there with political movements and organizations and is out there. He founded cpac, the american conservative union. Whenever there was a cause, he was out there mobilizing. He was a campus politician and a bright into the Public Square in many ways on behalf of because he was a charismatic personality, with extraordinary sense of wit, he was able to mobilize audiences. The ticking of the young people. He loved talking to young people. He did 70 campuses a year in his prime. That plus a newspaper column editing a magazine running a show, the president s all came according. People wanted his endorsement. As much as the ever wanted for any political boss. And again, i, it is too bad he did not have a few more years to really perfect his he mastered every form of communication at his time. Where you working would find you. The radio, newspaper, pbs, whether news is being made that he is now residing in honorary board from nixons administration would make front page news. He had a tremendous impact. And we still see it today. My students, same thing as yours. When he died, they knew that an important person died. Because it kept getting little messages on the internet. Wherever they subscribe to. But so this was an important person america should stop and Pay Attention to. And wouldnt extraordinary life to bring back to open up a new for a new generation. The rest of us, have some nostalgia. Lets begin by talking about that first show. It was called god and man. And it was an indictment of Yale University. Now why . He was a student there. I knows my went back and looked at some of the reviews, which were written by the great and the good of the lost establishment of the United States. That the reviewers were outraged among other reasons. Because buckley had accused Yale University of abandoning its christian heritage. Yes. And adopting a sort of new religion. A pseudoreligion of liberal secularism. And so the responses of some of the great and the good were this is outrageous and by the way this is a catholic. This upstart catholic at yell at our University Comes in and accuses of abandoning the Christian University but the one thing that you know about Yale University is that it will never abandon its christian heritage. Well, let me begin by saying that you have to be under the Jefferson Memorial and theres a great quote. Buckley would agree with that but he would also say even a greater republican and what is moral equivalency . He explained it like this. Imagine a wheelchair bound person is about to cross the street. And a passerby appears and he pushes the wheelchair in the way of an oncoming bus. Terrible and personal the economics department. Remember this is 1925. Calvin coolidge is in the white house. Didnt say very much, he did not think he had to impose himself every five minutes on the American People like other president s. He was attacked for not saying much at all government did much less. America thought they had learned from this. Europe was trying very hard not to repeat. The world was at peace in the Country Economic situation was booming. Well, as bill is getting older, he is witnessing for the time of his teenage years the administration coming to power. A completely new world. When he returns from the army in 1945. Where suddenly we are talking about mixed economy, not free markets. Which he thought was really you know by another name. We had the aggressive kind that we saw. Parades and gis coming home after world war ii. Eastern europe so we had that form of tyranny. Then we had the benign time. The time it gets the free democracy and then suddenly they were teaching this at Yale University. Very few premarket economists were around. All of them talked about the societies have excessive regulatory state. More importantly, the relations department. Did not feel that they should teach one form of religion and to be a Religious School but he did feel that christianity or the judeochristian tradition was superior to the other forms. Why . Because in our founding nation, informed the founding documents. We were in judeochristian society. Judeochristian tradition teaches that we are all made in gods image. And therefore as a source of all freedom. All freedom from government, we are all equal in the eyes of each other. In the eyes of the state. And in the eyes of god. And thats what he believed. He said it is great of other religions, it is great to learn about other religions but do not tell us of some of the traditions of the sinhala islands that Margaret Mead was writing about our other traditions talk about untouchables and god knows what is the same as ours. We should teach that there is a difference. That there is not a moral equivalence. That is obviously got him into a great deal of trouble. And that was the name of the book. Because there was a song which is now their anthem at Yale University. The last one is for god and for yale. And he changed it meaning that was pushing man into the center and god of course a little bit of play on words. Okay, why is this important . Other than the religion and why was this important . What was going on at the time, to famous espionage cases. To share whatever information he possibly could because after all, he was alive with the uk. And so we got rid of the immediate minutes of hitler and not bring heaven on earth in the form of pure muscle. They learned marxism theory in the 30s. Just around the time of the traffic so what happened in the United States . In my generation the vietnam war was probably the most galvanizing issue. Bill crystallizes a tell me where you were in vietnam and also you how you voted in the election. And in 1945, 1946, 47 and 48 we had what was called the hiss case. His was a very prominent person. Have the best education that you can get. Harvard law school, clerk to you cannot do better than that. Social friend of Franklin Roosevelt. Form of future cabinet member may be the united nations. Well hiss in 1948, the bill would have been a sophomore then. Having been a spy for the soviet union and his accuser, chambers was a former communist and was the go to guy for the communist party. And eventually leaves the party. Buckley comes the conclusion that we need sterner stuff. Theyre getting to the crime of our youth. They have singled out the kind of kids that would go to yale at this time. Even i would say that the student body at yale were homogenous. And it was all male, probably all alumni children. It was not exactly what you would see now. The breakdown of the campus 60 percent for doing an 40 percent german. I dont think they have looked at any campuses them. But on the side of the faculty, it was truman and Henry Wallace. My students do not know who Henry Wallace is. Well, if your student and you dont know him we had to have a chat with your professor. Bernie sanders, and you have got it think that Bernie Sanders was a red star. Wallace was rather weird. Some of you. [inaudible] name, address, Social Security number. Henry wallace was the secretary of agriculture. His religion was there were people for the plans in the trees. He calls himself a mystic. And i can see Franklin Roosevelt shaking his martini glass saying what is that . He became a pretty good politician. And his father had been agriculture secretary. And roosevelt decides that when james garner by the way, roosevelts first by Vice President appears you have your own Democrat Coalition was with the northern liberal and southern conservatives. Youll see it again with kennedy and johnson. Garner decides hes not only going to oppose the nomination of roosevelt but hate going to run against him. Roosevelt. I think Vice President has thrown his bottle into the ring. And he runs with Henry Wallace. They win the third term and everything is fine that we talk about the change in the party system. Have Franklin Roosevelt four times and in the middle of world war is playing poker on the white house boat, the mayflower and sitting with him is a labor leader. The mayor of chicago, another union leader and a governor. And they tell him you know we cannot tell your friend Henry Wallace the word chicago where real people live. Where here many of the people. Its too close. And you cannot run with him. So he dumps Henry Wallace. In the middle of the world war. Imagine this well nominate a president and we packed and then we wait around to see you know what 4 from the west for Vice President. And these guys had the power to do this. Roosevelt dies, and truman is not present. Wallace begins to criticize trumans tough cold war policies. And truman fired him. And he runs for, im glad ray get into this because here we get to buckley in his watching all of this. And wallace runs as the candidate president. Buckley knows hes not going to the present but his terrified and maybe wallace gets one or two percent of votes part of what is terrified is probably 60 to 70 percent of that one or two percent of the road are going to be artists, writers and of course professors from yale. Ideas matter ideas have consequences. Wallace will not be important but his followers will be along for a very long time. And im going to sit in my own movement to resist that supporting duty and the yale republican club, his going around to various radio stations debating on various radio stations. And the fact that the communist party was that openly and now we know this, openly running president ial campaign and they have too many intellectuals peers the big you have to do the same thing. You have got us to an interesting point. One of the remarkable things about buckley, taking charge of the conservative movement as a very young man. He encountered a movement that he sought to transform a movement, to take over a movement here there really was a motley crew that included how shall we say . Cranks more than a few. People that have each other. One of the things that buckley did, quite remarkable achievement especially given his youth was to marginalize, sideline the john birchers, the racist, anti semite, there is a purge of these elements of the movement to establish the modern conservative movement. Of course this was before you got the neoconservatism with 11 Jewish Americans in the conservative movement. Before you get a lot of catholics moving into the conservative movements when they were still ethnic democrats. How on earth did he pull that off at his age . To begin with they were a desperate lot. If you were on the 1948, first of all there was no movement. So what was a conservative to begin with . Well probably the ideal of a conservative was the senator from ohio. And he did not quite fit the view of conservatism as we define it. He had some peculiarities. We tend to think of that as small government. And he was all that. But he was also one of the first to say that there should be this housing. Because it is through that that we have value for the next generation. And he wanted the department of education on the grounds that if this is ongoing to educate children we will do it. We have a role to do it. If they want integrate will educate them. And that was something to say 1948. But he was called mr. Republican. He tried to be president for five times. So what else did you have . Buckley said this very loudly, once stalin got the bomb, idea about limited government, we had to have a couple of exceptions. Because as long as its called what was john kennedy would call this hard and bitter peace is going on, we have to have a pentagon, we have to resist. And the old ways not going to work. Nato is an issue in the last campaign. The opponent in 1952 was eisenhower and eisenhower goes and says i will not run for president. I will endorse you i have no problem. But i did run native for four years and you will endorse nato. Or i will not run. And taft will not support nato. And they write an editorial for yale will change his mind. Then who else do you have . You have these southern segregationists. They call themselves conservatives because he did not like the federal intervention in the economy they were very antilabor union for one. And as part of the new, if you want most of them southern or midwestern and they were segregationists. Taft was not. So how do you get a coalition out of this group of people . Its very difficult. And it is important to remember that this is a time long before you have the polarization of the political party. So we now think of republicans and conservatives and democrats as conservatives or liberals but in those days as professor Alvin Felzenberg has a ready noted, the Democratic Party was a combination of northern liberals like humphrey from minnesota and southern whatever they were they certainly were not liberals they were southern segregationists. This was one of the more portly genteel. I we are talking with people in mississippi who use the nword. We are talking is a really nasty people here. But yes, people forget because the left making such a hero during watergate. Remember . [inaudible] no one ever rested he was the author of the southern manifesto. Which all the sudden senators signed as a way of resisting. No one talks about that because it takes away from watergate. Its like remembering the role of J William Fulbright. Yes. Now, J William Fulbright was probably the most effective chairman and that Foreign Relations committee in history. He did more to destroy Lyndon Johnsons presidency and questioned the vietnam war and lead circles and any other person. However john kennedy wanted fulbright to be the secretary of state. And he did not think that a democratic president there start off this everyday with a five for the so kennedy wound up with an identity of secretary of state named theres a book i recommend that was a bestseller when i was starting my career in princeton called the best and the brightest. It tells you all about fulbright and another failed we will talk about that later. So this is what the context where he finds himself. Yes. Said he wants a conservative movement. Wanted to be free of the segregationists and the cranks. We dont want to get too deep into that. And he wants that movement to win control of one of the boards and it is the obvious candidate for that role of the Republican Party. But he runs into big problem right away i learned from your book. He runs into a big problem because eisenhower does decide to come run for president. Taft will not go along on this. And here is the conservative republican William F Buckley at odds with the first Republican Administration since Franklin Roosevelt came into office. Is numberless, republicans we led five elections in a row from 1932 to 1948 1942 to 1948. They were not supposed to lose like that. But in any event, they are really stuck now. And republicans like buckley those on the domestic side wanted to get back to what it was like before this. And they thought that he was the got to do that. Now you can eisenhower. Now, eisenhower is a lot shorter s router. [multiple speakers] in his public spirit and the rollback of this abroad. And buckley surmise, he wasnt sure about what he was going to do about him and he did believe the nato argument and the Foreign Policy but stevenson for the democratic candidate in 1952, the reluctant candidate, in 1921 and less subject we are not trying to remove stevensons name from anything. Last i checked everything is okay but the thought that he can be tougher on the cold war. But he had some doubts. He had some doubts about the domestic agenda and i discovered a letter that eisenhower wrote to his brother basically saying look, we just cannot come in here and dismantle Social Security. And federally subsidized mortgages. In one day or in one administration. Look, the American People not only have gotten used to it they supported. And if i do that, and i will not have the opportunity to push through a tough Defense Strategy they want. Which was basically a nuclear umbrella. Basically the same strategy that went over to the reagan era. And the soviet menace. So he said we are going to have a someone. And buckley decides he has he became the master scare the elephant. They were just a warmup act for a five star general who won the big one. Hello and he writes a note to one of his friends eastman and he says do not tell anyone but my goal is to get Dwight Eisenhower out of the conservative movement. Hello well this is of some significance. He does not want to say this openly. He founded the magazine which became the flagship journal of the conservative movement. What he does, he founds the National Review and wanted to be the functional equivalent on the right of what the new republic and maybe saturday review and some great journalists that were started by socialists. Walter whitman then he started called himself a democrat. A lot of the new freedom that Woodrow Wilson passed in the first term. And in child labor, eight hour day, federal reserve. A lot of these things were first introduced by the new republic. For buckley, he studied the other side very well. And exhibiting something for us. We need a policy for us. That can give ideas to the next conservative president. Thinking that there would be one. And they found National Review. And it becomes a place for conservatives. In all persuasions to find out whats going on published works of emerging writers and the rest of that. And a couple of months and it becomes very clear that the ministration is not going the way he wants. And he tells them you have to be very careful with this. Because half of the donors work or all of the donors were pretty much republican except for the southerners. And a lot of them are going to the ministration. And the administration is defined himself as conservative. What do we mean by conservative . Think of eisenhower, stalin, balancedbudget, cares about slow and steady. They talk about osama obama. There was even less than drama with eisenhower. To such a degree that they used to say that they were at a standstill. I was basically a caricature of the error. It wasnt a reality was a caricature of the era. They pointed billing us the cabin of the New York Times you have maybe 10 cabinets at that time this is not millionaires and a plumber. He was the plumber who is the head. Thats it and if you ran a manufacturer or running large energy companies, you are conservative and had the administration on your side. Buckley had a big business hated big business. He said they will s trying to take the administration to get friendly tax deals and. Nothing changes. Nothing changes. None of the issues ever change. You have to be careful because once a magazine that is going to be openly question administration to the right. But he also has a responsive president at that point in American History. As i pointed out, i can afford to ignore it. I could just go out and play golf and everything is fine. The American People would agree with it. If you go back and look at the polls which is what drove buckley nuts and you look at eisenhowers rating there was a steady line. I think he fell under 50 percent wants in a recession. For about a month. In the second time was near the end for about a week. But it was a solid line 50 to 60 percent. President s would kill for that now. If you look at the alligator too much he might lose donors, he might lose readers. Nevertheless he kept agitating and agitating. And when i print out of office he was broke. When i said not all conservatives can be imminent at this Democratic Administration from the same angle. Even, rockefeller we can get him and thus are going to talk about this. He was delighted. Because once this happens now, the fight is on to take the Republican Party as he said. Without isaac who is a moderate without ike who is a moderate. We can now realign the party. We can get the southern democrats to say they are conservatives to join with us and will already hold midwest and we can become the new majority. He had this girl the 1940s. He thought it was going to be taft, quite shocking eisenhower was there but he will pick up where who was even concerned that he won the they say all movement start off this way and he wrote you know a year before i was born, coolidge won one of the largest landslides in American History. America was conservative, it was at peace, it had no welfare state, no big armies. Eight years later roosevelt wins the election. You need a depression in there. But that is what he wrote. Take heart from this. You know of course about nixons southern strategy. They were back, four short years nobody thought when bowater went down. And then nixon who had a very liberal stance. Let me ask you, what was buckleys attitude toward mixing . Because although nixon was reviled by the left, mainly for this excessive anticommunism, he was more liberal. In most ways than ike so what was buckleys attitude toward him . Well when nixon passed away, buckley said that it is amazing how conservatives like nixon, throughout battles even though you did very well little for the movement. And he said what is it about this man and why is it that so many claim to him. He said back to this case. When Whittaker Chambers lets say outed hiss and we know this but documents now. With the state department and the little window base of the cold war is over and they turned over some documents and the burden of proof is now on the other side. But there probably still some senators with hiss but the burden has shifted. Okay. When chambers went ahead and outed hiss to the committee, remember, this man is a friend of frank and roosevelt, stephenson, secretary of state, one future the man looked like cary grant. He was charismatic. All of the things that you want. In this southern fellow chambers, rotund, overweight, mixed career. Not very successful. And who do you think that you know the establishment, hollywood, Washington Post and New York Times there was one freshman congressman on the committee. His name was richard nixon. And he had taken a number of courses at Duke Law School on perjury among other things. He did not like the way hiss denied the various questions. Do you know Whittaker Chambers . And the answer would be i dont know anyone by that name. Nixon goes home and studies and stayed up all night on this. Did he have another name . Aha he says chambers what was your name in the communist party . And he gives them another name. And then when they bring hiss back, i have to test my memory. This guy is lying and this is one as an irony about what happened later on but nevertheless, nixon believed him. So as you say, it becomes a hero to the right. He has invited, eisenhower didnt like this so they go to all these conferences and hes picking up delegates. Of course with buckley, there was no compromise because nixon couldnt do anything because he was ikes understudy. Your microphone. Just clip it to your lapel. Okay. So naturally he is not very kind to nixon but he is eisenhowers understudy. So they dont quite quote George Wallace. But they do not support nixon. They take the view that we are not a republican organization, we are not going to fall in line. It is not as much of a difference between nixon kennedy. At that time who is running to the nixons right. Claiming there was a nestle gap. Yes and attacked eisenhower for losing territory 90 miles off the shore appeared promising to get rid of castro and of course they tried. Not very well. But that was the relationship. Now, was interesting out of office dimension that because of the, this is a place to have a little reflection him. Out of office nixon realizes that went down by the biggest im going to collect delegates like last time. They take a walk and viscvis alternatives. Im going to endear myself. Whatever we can say about the popularity. Im going to get those delegates, as many as i can and it becomes a fight in 1968 between rockefeller who i mentioned before certainly and nixon which has his uneasy history with them. But he stands up for goldwater when no one else did. And young reagan. This was the preobama era. They said it was impossible for man to go into politics and government for one year and get the nomination and buckley said, if we nominate reagan, and humphrey and this becomes a fight over experience will lose with a conservative. Theyre gorgeous it was in the candidate it was the movement. Lets go with reagan for another day. And he wrote a column and got a lot of criticism. And so that reagan would be better for another time. It split the board of National Review. It was one of the hundreds of times that bill russia threatened to quit. Bill russia we are proud to say he opposed an excellent time or another every time he ran for public office. He was the one pushing still not support nixon. So he was a princeton alumnus. And he was willing to he does nixon two favors in 1968. Both relevant to our time. One is he makes nixon respect to other conservatives. If buckley is supporting nixon he cant be this kind of guy. And second, he had this fellow named George Wallace. The segregationist governor in alabama running on the thirdparty ticket. And getting votes of northern democrats. Many are in the labor union. And campaigning as a conservative in his own right. Because he is tough on law and order. What does buckley do . He says the only thing george relish is a rightwinger on is race. Let me tell you why. Because the welfare populace. And he says lets look at the budget. For every federal program, 60 percent of the alabama budget is coming from washington. He is a bit conservative. The only thing he does to get people supporting him in a big way is he doesnt want black people to get benefits for any of the and he calls him a phony. And he says will conservatives want fewer programs, Less Government and they dont want racial tensions. And he writes his article. Those of you supporting George Wallace calling themselves a conservative vote for me. But when consciousness and theres a lot of difference. If you look at how hes governed alabama and you look at the kind of president he will be to minorities and others. And that makes nixon respectable to these people do not like him. And his funny george wells was competing with robert f kennedy. That was the situation. Another brings the racial issue up. Buckley was not a racist and do the opposite. He drove the racist abbasid number for you people here. And yet, like goldwater who is not a racist, integrated his own Family Department store in arizona. He, buckley and goldwater opposed the 64 Civil Rights Act. Which i think plays a very significant role in getting conservatives, including conservatives who themselves had been activists in the civil rights movement. People like richard john neuhaus, gave the conservative movement a reputation for being if not racist, at least not against racial segregations. So what accounts for buckley and goldwater refusing to support the Civil Rights Act . Before we do the Civil Rights Act. Remember National Review begins in the 1970s. And it is not around in 1954 but it also possibly in a very big way. This is not National Reviews finest hour. There have been many finer hours. Outdated finest hour in the last few years. But buckley was operating under many forces. Let me explain this. Both his parents were southerners. Texas and south carolina. The genteel, the southerners who said we can take care of problems thank you very much. We dont believe in integration but we dont believe in violence, we dont believe in exploitation either. And we will take care of our community thank you very much. These are people that were very wealthy people in the south. And many of the institutions that you mentioned. I dont believe in lynching i believe in order. The way my granddaddy gave it to me. That was different from what youre getting with George Wallace and the agitation that happens . Buckley rights very unfortunate editorial. That even did not go along with. They say the white race should continue to determine policies themselves. Because they are the more advanced race. And what do we mean by advanced . We have the Civil Rights Organization and they are admitting he says that only when the seven people are coming around and see that education has been extended to the point where we could have a biracial governance. If you are conservative in 1957 and lived outside the self, that would have appalled you. It certainly appalled eisenhower and nixon. Nixon was trying to push the civil rights. And. Which did pass. Yes. The one who really made it ineffective or somebody can now you see is lyndon johnson. He also put in any jury amendment. Which says if you are accused of stubbing Voting Rights you have to have a jury trial by your peers. While whos going to evict the southern registrar . It was, that happen at the very last moment. But that editorial, if you wanted to find work conservatives were, buckley opposed. Senator nolan was a republican leader and supposed to be the candidate against nixon he supported the bill. What was left supported the bill. It was not a very happy moment for National Review looking back. Well, there was a profit on the magazine. It was buckleys brotherinlaw. And the debating partner at yale. Dedicated editorial meeting. And they said we said we believe in strict instructions. A literalist interpretation of the constitution. Well, you just cant ignore the 15th amendment. According. And you cant use race as a reason. And what about the 14th amendment, the third and the fifth and what the heck is the matter with you . So buckley then, he writes, clarifying editorial saying well my problems with Voting Rights as this. My problem with Voting Rights here is we want to expand them with federal force is that we have too many stupid people boarding in the north now. Right . Look at jersey city. Look at philadelphia. Look at pellet stumpy. The last thing we need is more of it so be happy to disenfranchise many white voters and allow educated black voters to vote in the south. This is what we were moving to. And that was one issue. But it he comes around. And you have to understand what is going on in the southern politics. You know they have these run up elections in the south. These things are descendents of alisa called the white primary. So you would have, wanted republicans to count. My grandfather fought in the civil war, this is how it was. So the republicans did not count. Africanamericans. So you have these battles between the genteel nobility of the south and the wallace type. The foaming at the mouth, welfare populace. They were the ones that chapter they criticize the old order for being too benign in this. And all of these things that should be going to us. Theyre allowing africanamericans to have, thats what was happening. And there were some very unpleasant experiences in buckleys own family. With these kinds of welfare populace. Now hidden uncle and the uncle was a family historian. In the grandfather who was the sheriff of duval county. Imagine this who knew wyatt earp, he knew, this is such a young country. Buckleys grandfather knew wyatt earp. Have knew the guy who killed billy the kid. Imagine this this is the old texas. Okay . He was in a very protestant southern state. He was treated very well. And he went to mass. He became sheriff with the votes of these americans. And he would go to five masses on sunday. And that was it. Everything was fine for the first two or three times and suddenly, the powers that be want to put an end to this. So uncle claude is the family historian. He writes columns. So they finally had enough of grandpa. So they rounded up, terrible word i dont use it but they rounded up all the white trash they can find to see and grandpa was turned up. So they had some experience. In that experience with the kinds of people that wallace was inciting. So that was one thing. There was change in the south and he thought that he might be able to appeal to better angles. Another theyre all gone, they are all gone now. He had George Wallace coming in and the violence that they use to resist had what i would call a cataclysmic conversion, if you want, during after the Birmingham Church bombings on a sunday morning. A week after the march on washington. Bomb goes off in birmingham, alabama, condi rice new some of the four girls who were murdered. And buckley just writes a very, very searing editorial, blaming wallace for inciting this kind of hate. And then which i at any time know this until i started research. I knew a lot about buckley. He where writs his mother and lr and says you tell to us pray every day. Where in our religion does it support this kind of system that up in of us ever question. We never questionedded. Dad never questioned it. I never questioned it. 47 years, there was no religious sanction for this. How can we support it . And he the public buckley is not there yet but the private buckley is going through a great dole of inner turmoil. And so by the time he went to the 64 civil right bill. Thats different then they brown and other decisions. Buckley said they had constitutional questions. By 65 Voting Rights snack dont oppose the Voting Rights act. He says, lets see how it goes. They brought it on themselves with this kind of resistance, murdering of civil rights leaders. They have a right to march. Didnt say anything about Voting Rights bill. Host this is fascinating. Did buckley of anyone in the family have any reaction, any comment, did you find anything even private, in reaction to the archbishop of new orleans, joseph rumbles, excommunication of the boss of new orleans and other segregationist politicians in louisiana in the late 1950s . Was that guest i did not. I look. I did not find any corporations on this but i do d any correspondence on this but her eloise steiners father, there are streets and boulevards named in their honor. I couldnt find anything about that, but i would be very surprised if they did not know about it or were not aware of it. It was aing do. Host on the issue of race the biggest thing happening, especially for catholics. The other thing about the story is bozell influence help was a fanatical catholic. Guest convert. Host yeah. Only constant verts can be that fanatical. Buckley was main street catholic. Bozell was a much more aggressive catholic. I believe he named his own magazine triumph. Guest yes, and actually formed his own resistance to the Abortion Movement and he and self of his relatives were arrested outside abortion clinics. Host a lot stronger on issues of Racial Justice than buckley and is pushing buckley. Guest yes. A lot of it was push. Push from what was going on with the violence, and a lot of it was pull, and a lot of it was prayer and reflection. And his mother just throws her hands up. She says, my god, ive never had question like this, especially from someone as bridget as you. Im going to have to pray on this and talk to the priests but knowing bill as i have come to know him im sure he spoke to other theologians, and its beginning to gnaw at him. Bozell is an interesting character. They meet at really, and bozell is a mainstream protestant, epins a new federalist. Within 18 months he is a catholic, he is a conservative republican and marrys buckleys favorite sister. Wow. Talk about who at that point was influencing who . All right. But now its ten years later, and he is saying, you know, you talk about read what the thing says. What is the matter with you . Were going to throw his out and say way cant use the 15th 15th amendment because the south wouldnt sign it. How many others . Find something else. So he comes up with that one. Mention madison when we began. Madison and jefferson kind of joined the help. The jefferson quote is a nation that expects to be ignorant and free expects what never was and never, never will be. You find the same quote with madison. So, last thing i want to make here, buckley was not a great believer nonantidemocratic, not in favor of tyranny but nod i believe democracy could solve up a ills and did not believe that extending the franchise would necessarily lead to a nirvana. He wrote a paper the age of 15 for his had haventer at mill brooke said, well headmaster its will brooke. He says is is nice about what post war germany will be like. Dont now if i can buy this. These news reels you take me to see every saturday, time marchs on, pictures of the week. I have seen the rallies. These people are not being forced and dragooned and now well let them vote in we can have the same thing by election, many cases we did. What are we going to do about it . He didnt worship the franchise per se bus not against it. He was not thinking it was a cureall. So he wrote an editorial in National Review when the Voting Rights act is being enforced for the first time in august of 65 and talking about the great hope that he sees in peoples faces, as theyre going to vote. He talks aboutagain, the religious roots of the civil rights movement. Another indirect influence was a fellow, we talked about hit, buckleys personal god, chambers. Buckley loved music, loved chambers. And Marian Anderson was made the person of the year, and hen lie luce asked chambers to write the piece, and this is like 12 years after Eleanor Roosevelt allowed asked her to sing the stops of the Lincoln Memorial and the daughters of the revolution said she couldnt sing before them. This is a decade after. And has had every role you can get the metropolitan opera, and chambers writes, africanamericans are the both in the most despised and the most religious of any people on earth. Wow. So, in 1969, the head of the urban league, whitney young, and Daniel Patrick moynihan, now working for nixon, organized a tour of urban america for white journalists. And they visit six towns and buckley meets some rather Charming Community organizers and radicals in the black movement for the first time. And he writes that he sees a little bit of himself, except for background, obviously. Theyre just like we are. Theyre sassy, theyre cynical about what bureaucracy can do for communities. They want the selfhelp movement, want to teach their own children. Want to start businesses. Dont want washington breathing down their throat. Where with have we heard this perform . And said out of the ranks will come a president in the next ten years. Quotes chambers but not literally. That quote stuck inform become of his head for 35 years, and he is writing this column in a plane or train or the back of a car, where he would write in the back seat on his old remington, bang, bang, bang. And i dont have time. I cant go to the library, this has to do i. It got out the Time Magazine and the column but it was on his memory, and he used is in 1970, and by now, life is a lot different. I left out the mayoral run, which the first host when he ran for mayor of new york. Got 13 of the vote. But really shook things up. I think laid, again, foundation for the emergence of the modern conservative movement as a movement that would actually elect people to office. With that, al issue think its now time to open the floor. Wed ask people to come down to the microphones so we can see you as well as hear you, and while people consider what questions they might ask, ill just add a little coda to the discussion. Buckley aimed to be an inside player, an insider, and yet as a catholic, and as a conservative catholic, he knew he would always, in the america that was his america, always be something of an outsider. He cooperate really be fully and completely an insider. Right. Well, start the book by quoting one of his rather its interesting, wherever they happened to live they were short sort of in execs exile. You have this texas in new england. Southern catholics and then spend the winters in columbia and south carolina, and theyre not even yankees. Now theyre surrounded by wasps, but a different kind, southern ban kyes versus new england congregationalist. They go to britain where the father is trying to recoup some lost investments and theyre catholics and so what this is a great story. I love this story. They were going to a catholic good going for a catholic boy school. St. John, and it is right next to eaton. So, he is told that previous headmaster writes a letter to the headmaster 0 eaton, challenging the eaton bows to a soccer match. And the head of eaton says, where is st. John . And the headmaster responds and says, what eaton used to be, trading ministers with the king. In other words, for the catholic king. For england before the reformation, and he develops this tremendous admiration and affection for british catholics. These are a persecuted minority that cannot vote for parliament until the 1850s, even beyond that. Yet they are the descendents of the ancient kings of britain. He knew a good deal. So all the time they were kind of exiled to their own land, and but they had ten children that their own little plate sal system and reinforced each other built their own fortress against the world. Host we have a question over here. Thank you. The book was fantastic. A lot of what youre talking about so far touches on the caricature of bill as a elite u. S. But discuss the popiist populist, and the quit about the boston Telephone Directory and his mayoral run and how he connected with the cop, the bus driver, just like his brother did. Id like your take on bill the populist and how maybe that would precursor to well, one of the tensions that very difficult to resolve is when is he an elitist and when is a populist . What is his solution to the curriculum problems at yale . Well, we have to go to he alumni. Hardly populist given they were all not exactly populists. But when he sees the internal communist threat and sees that the entire establishment is fighting Whittaker Chambers, and he says, how are we going to deal with this . Well, we are going to have the public demand that congress do something. Internal security. The administrations were dragging their feet. So were going out to the broader body. The republican primaries. You want to shift the power base from the rockefellers and the loses and the god knows what in the northeast. Have to go to the primaries and work the organizations. What i said earlier about those nuremberg rallies. He hated the mob and saw wallace. So, he never really resolved that. What i think he wanted now, this line you gave me that most one of the most quotable buckley quotes is rather be governed by the first identify thousand named the boston phone book than the first names in the harvard faculty. If you good the populist route you dont have the ability to excommunicate people. He want a conservative. He called himself the tablet keeper and knew he whats movement. If i can write robert welsh, take on girl smith, one of the most famous antisemites in however, i have to have an ethreat do and have to have other people, like Ronald Reagan and president george bush the ed john tower, i have to have them sign on with he. If i just do it its a fight between me and welsh. If they do i, its a fight among he leading conservatives. He was terrified but did not want a liberal lead to take over every institution and ram the things i mentioned down peoples throat. A very difficult dilemma but he saw populist as Halfway House until he go get the elites installed. Shy tell you im a princeton graduate. But i spent a great deal of time up at yale. In the department of psychiatrist psychiatry up there was there when things began to explode between the yale population and the black population, which surrounded yale. And as we went through vietnam, things became greater and greater, with more tenseness going on. And so a number of things happening. The issues with vietnam and were you going to be drafted . And what would happen is that the women would come out and they would say that they would take a guy back and take the draft card . Yeah, the draft card. And if a guy would shed take him up to his room and you can figure out what happens from there on. Others, can you have a question. The other thing is when it exploded, we had a whole thing erupt. It was a mass administration, people being we had to bring in the police and you public probable you probably know the story very well. Was there in the middle of that and i had to take away a by chance i had the going over to the stairs where all the lemonade was. I found one gallon whos bringing in a pistol, and fortunately we discovered that and picked the guy found out who was bringing it and they were both block, black. And if that explode guest the situation for universities robbed the country got very dangerous. We had the situation of the sheeting at kent state, i think by national guardsmen. Racial violence and guns on both side. You had two violent confrontation, one when jorg wag has was asked to speak, and the city was not pleased, and then the black panther trial, very unfortunate things he said that inflammed thats what got him on the enemy list. Dont want that to come back. Thank you for coming and talking. Was curious if in your research at all you found how buckleys faith interacted with his politics, how he kind of rationalized the conservativism with the deep christian sentiments of love thy neighbor, care for the poor, the disabled. I mentioned for the reason that he drew ethical distinctions all the time. He said we would brief in tolerance and everyone is free practice what they want in this country, or not but dont tell me our country was founded by all religious traditions equally. Theyre not. Come from the true faith, does not believe there is a group of undesirables among human beings or that animals have the same rights as people. Say what you want. But i believe in a faith that says that god created man in his image, gave man the capacity to think and develop his potential, and that whether einstein believed in god or not, einstein perfecting his genius was a tribute to god, who created him. Or mozart, or king. That is my tradition and i will say that is superior to other traditions and i dont care if you agree with me or not. Thats whoa i am, and i feel that our country was founded in a certain way, and quote mrs. Thatcher, the only country formed by an idea, not by blood lines or race or counselors or heredity. They were all each others equal. And that idea had tremendous revolutionary impact in places it was not intended. But without that you couldnt have that emans nation, cooperate have hat womens rights or in other groups. That is who we who he was to his core but would not compromise. Moral equivalency he would not find. Right and wrong and certain things are superior and i dont care if its politically correct. I think the students question recalled for us that buckley emerges in the wake of the protestant social gospel movement, wilsonian progressism that for true christian belief government must be an instrumentality of bringing aid and comfort to the poor, movement that begins to a bit late are, emerge within catholicism, within buckleys own tradition of christianity. So what was buckleys response to the claim that not only must we care for the poor, work for justice, social justice, put that we must use the instrumentality of government to that gods work must be ours. There are some great quotes. Christ said we should care for the least among us, but with our money, not with other peoples money. Not with coercion. He believed in tithing. He tithed handsomely, and many, many people were the recipients of anonymous gifts. He put god knows how many people through college who may not have known about it, descend denned from people descentents from people his parents now and was the tradition of the family. Used to find people who war stop him on the street and thank him for this fathers largeestity. But he believed there was a role for government and we dont let people starve the street. The safety net. His main argument with ayn rand, were given these gifts to glorify god, not given these gifts, our capacity to acquire things create things. With given that to glorify him. Not make selfeuness the goal. He when he decides to take somebody on, nuclear bomb was the default mechanism. Then we move up from that. This lady named ayn rand, writes this thing called atlas shrugged. Could review it for the New York Times. Im get to in get Whittaker Chambers. That byline we get everyone to buy it. Going to get Whittaker Chambers to blow her off and attack the atheism and saying the dollar sign is the new swastika and put the dollar sign as the golden calf on the cover of National Review, with her bowing down to it. Boy, talk about starting a war. But he said he had libertarian streaks, certainly, but when it got to atheism, got selfishness as a goal, not interested in, not interested in declaring certain human beings losers, takers, 47 , god forbid deplorables. Wasnt into that. He bought the safety net. So did Ronald Reagan buy the safety net. There are people who cant care for himself, but not, bring out your dead. No, were part of the same planet. But he was very critical of the Great Society program because i stifled incentive, not because it gave out money. Can you say a word briefly about the concept of fusionism . He has libertarian leaning and the catholic social justice vision. By the way, god like most species, the best stuff is in the footnote. He knew they would attack him for being catholic, and i looked through the records and you had people say, well, maybe he would have been better had he gone to fordham or notre dame. Hefoot note was my def next of christianity does not come from catholic writings, it comes from the great protestant theologian on the left, writing speeches for Adlai Stevenson at the time. So he knew that was coming. Fusion. Buckley realized the importance of a common enemy, and so if youre a burkan or a burkan meaning you believe in institutions. That institutions organic things and they adapt, and we accept the best after the old and we create and move cautiously. If youre a libertarian, government, government. If youre a catholic, what do you hate . What is the threat to all of you . The soviet union, and the soviet union is not just aggressive. It just doesnt want to grab your house in new jersey and enslave you, right . Its also an athiest power. And you hey not believe in god, mr. Libertarian, but better be careful because there are a lot of people who might, and so it was a threat to all of these groups that man had complete contempt for each other, and he expected that if the soviet union dissolved the movement would have tension from that. And comes back in the administration of george bush. George bush 43. Because why are we having all these crusaded around the world . We thought rome would get better without the existential threat. And you remove the existential threat, if george bush believed that saddam had the weapons, must better to be embarrassed note finding the weapons than the other way, ignoring it and have ang incident. However we found there werent the weaponons, what are we doing there . Who gave is thank you right to rebuild the gave us the right to rebuild iraq . The french didnt stay around. We might be speaking much better that hey, butter wine cellars. Why are we rebuilding saginaw how Many American soldiers have to die for a baghdad primary. So without the soviet union torch reason you defend vietnam is because it what a client. What is fusionism . Fusionism means we have our differences within this house, within this tent but we have common enemy that is threatening to bring down the whole tent and we have to form alliances. He keeps adding. He understood the power of addition. As fusionism just a set of compromises or bring the best of the libertarianism or already. I would say firmer. He spent most of his time most of my waking hours trying to negotiate differences between libertarian frank meier and real politic russell kerr and he said all of me days right to to fight these two geniuses and would never come together except on the issue of communism. All of these groups believed in limited government, and low taxes, and incentive structure, and Milton Freedman kind of economics, and then they differed a great deal about tactics. Actually in terms terms of real politic and taxes, james burnham, on the left, became the most anticommunist member of the he felt Nelson Rockefeller should he had better sources of information through rocker feller interests reasons the world and was more anticommunist than geldwater. Goldwater . Why do we hate him . Fusionism is a coalition of aligned interests but no overlapping interests. Were up against our time. So give us a quick question. Ill try. Okay; quick on fusionism. In frank meiers version of meier kind the term. Yes, a princeton guy. But in his view, anyway, both the lib be tarean and the traditionalists blended in a certain way that was not incoherent. Whether buckley believed that or not i dont know. Myer believed that fusionism was not a compromise. Myer was my favorite guy National Review. Peter, who was a onetime teacher, writer for National Review, his big thing is immigration restrictionism and went on to form his own immigration restory. Excommunicated. He was excommute captain from National Review and he claim this reason why is buckley, 1990, 2000, game too beholdenning to and to concerned in hi image in new york city liberal news media. What would buckley say in response to that claim. Probably be unprintable. The same charge was made when he drove out joe s around the time reagan went to vicksburg a cemetery that reagan thought originally was a resting place for german drafted soldiers and turned out they were ss some people who tortured u. S. Prisoners of war, a big brouhaha, and the issue was how to get reagan to engage miss mind and not go. So, sobran was writing things like the New York Times should change the name from the New York Times to quote holocaust update and more vicious comments like that. And buckley was accused of basically firing sobran to cultivate the jewish intelligentsia, some who became neocons. The said that was rubbish. And i think he said the same thing to brenlow. Did he also excommunicate pat buie cannan . Yes, but buchanan was not a member of the national rev view. Buchanan brought back from the trash heap of history charl behind behind leaguers statement that the only people agitating for war against hitler were the british interests, the jewish interests and the roosevelt administration. So, he says the only people who wanted to invade iraq in 1990 under the first bush, basically the Israeli Government and the amen corner the u. S. Congress. Buckley went ballistic. And basically read buchanan out of the movement. Buchanan is still exceptionally bit are about it. He has a memoir out, deals with his future with buckley. There were many others. I went through the papers. When heed a a dispute with Antidefamation League of b nai brith, and he gets a letter saying you have too stand up to these people and mentioning derogatory names and says, the other problem if you, mr. Smith, you dont mend your ways. And if youre not helping me. It was a lot of that going on. And i did my best. But the his attack was also made earlier. He wasnt an antisemite. On immigration lets remember, however we feel about immigration, Ronald Reagan was the great amnesties president and i dont remember William Buckley attacking that. Im not talking about im talking immigration. Before i invite you to join my thinking al felzenberg, let mention he will be signing his new book in the lobby here after this meeting, and i thank you all for coming, and thank you, al felzenberg. Thank you all. [applause] youre watching booktv, television for serious readers. You can watch any program you see here online at book of thedoering booktv. Org. It was founded in 1679. Such an important partner American Revolution and a long