That is terrific. But we probably dont have to defend shakespeare as a good writer because he is so successful. It is going to be hard to keep people away from the original. I always go with the fact we keep coming back to this writer. We would want to collect the scripts from this initiative in oregon because we are the Shakespeare Library and want to know the whole legacy but i dont think we have to handicapped shakespeare. Final word . I was born in england but spent most of my youth in canada. Shakespeare as a multi lingual poet. His language is phenomenal and those of us lucky enough to be born into english have this great privilege of accessing m him. But i think it is fantastic and woufrl wonderful to encounter him in translation, too. There should no handcuffs on the language you use. I feel bring it on. [applause] [inaudible conversations] so in 1999, your son dillion and eric harris took the lives of 12 students and one teacher in their high school and then their own and 24 others were wounded. It devastated those families and affected the whole nation. One of the questions people have is why did you decide to write this book now, 17 years later . Well, probably because it took me that many years to try to understand it and to feel that i was ready to write the book. There was much learning that had to go on my part and healing and i just think it took that long. It is a very powerful book. It covers such a range of emotion. Thank you. Grief, anger, fear. Can you talk about those emotions and was there a progression . It seemed as you learned more things changed for you. Can you talk a little bit about that. Yes, there is always, i think, a progression after loss of any kind. The progression i am most aware of looking at it from the distance of time was in the beginning i was feeling a victim of the tragedy. I was bewildered, i didnt understand what happened or why, i could not make sense of any it, i was humiliated, griefstricken, terrified. As time went by and i started it understand how he died and a little about his own suicide i became more of a survivor and identified more with survivors from tragedy and loss and i became more active and interested in all of our welfare together. I began volunteering and raising funds for Mental Health or prevent suicide. As time went my more, i think i became an advocate and somebody who was determined to make a difference and right some of the wrongs, to use funds to try to make it possible for Brain Research to occur, support programs to occur. So there really was a progression. I am sure i am still in it. One of the things you talk about in the book and people cant to know is how could you not know. And over time you come to say there were warning signs and had you know what you know now you would have picked them up. Can you talk about what you knew then and what you came to know. Right. Unfortunately, i had no idea dillion was suffering and having suicidal thoughts and even cutting himself. He wrote about that in a journal entry i read long after his death. He had trouble in his Junior High School year. He stole something with eric in a parked van and was assigned to a juvenile diversion school. I remember asking the diverseing counselor if this means something or does he need help . And at the time, nobody thought he did. He was given an assessment and dillion was asked to check off his own feelings about himself and he checked off nothing. We spoke together and dillion promised us we had his life on track. We had though idea the level of suffering and filtering he was seeing the world through. We were not aware of that until after his death. What are the warning signs you would tell parents and others to be looking at and thinking about . At the time, at the time, friend and family that knew him didnt think it was significant. They thought he was a ten and experimenting. Teen. That is one thing i would say, if you suddenly have a child getting in trouble as dillion did and he got in trouble at school around the same time, those are warning signs something could be terribly wrong and we have to do a much better job. I certainly wish i had done a better job of asking more probing, openended questions and listen without judgment and trying to fix thing and listen to try to understand what he was feeling. I think some would say these are typical teen behaviors. How do you think they should look at it and know the difference between teen behavior and what needs to be looked at more carefully. That is the conundrum. Typical teen behavior might be the same as depressed. Sleeping patterns changing, eating patterns that change, behaviors that change. It is very difficult to tell sometimes. That is why, as parents, we cannot offer under the delusion every is fine. We have a child we love and trust and we believe in their goodness and health and i think all of us have to be aware someone we love may be struggling with life and death thoughts and they are looking very hard to hide those from us. Simply that awareness will change the way we parent and the way we interact. I think that is a question people have is why . Why did dillion do this . I know you talk in the book about lots of folks theories and media and others. But i am interested in what are your thoughts on the question. First of all, the likelihood someone you love, a child you have, will take part in a school shooting, the chances are one in a million. This isnt an every day occurrence and something every mother should be concerned about. The far more dangerous thing for our children is how many of them have thoughts of suicide and selfharm. If we look at a murdersuicide such as the columbine tragedy, murdersuicide is a small subset of suicide perhaps 12 result in the killing of somebody else. My recommendation is we focus very much on trying to understand suicide and trying to prevent suicide so they dont erupt into a terrible tragedy. You did ask why this happened. In the book, i talk about i think the more up front question to ask is how does this happen . What is the mechanisms that declines . If we look at suicide and consider it to be a health risk as we would Heart Disease or diabetes we know there are many factors involved. There is personality and how the person interacts and views his world, there are biological factors that show someone might have a tendency to think or act or live in a certain way, there are environmental factors and that is not just the home, but it can be the School Culture and national culture. And with suicide, there are triggering factors like bullying or arrest that can impact the risk one is having. So my answer to that question is what happened to dillion was a very rare set of circumstances that overlapped perfectly if you want to look at it in a vin diagram of interlocking circle where everything came into play. Meeting a friend who was possibly disturbed, angry, and control, dillions vulnerability and own wish to do and the pain he was in, psychological pain, the bullying they experienced together in school, all of those factors came together in what turned out to be the horrible perfect storm. You talk about the issue of Mental Health in the book and you call it brain health. You advocate for families and you focus on the stigma. The view there is a link between Mental Illness and violence and that it prevents people from getting the help they need . The general rule is people with Mental Illness are not violent and it is really 4 of people with serious Mental Illness have a risk factor. 4 risk factor in incidents. Can you talk a little bit about that . Sure. Certainly. This is one of the most difficult things about writing this book. I didnt want to make it any more difficult than it already is for someone who is struggling with Mental Health issues. There is nothing stigma and fear. I didnt want, in any way, to make anyone assume that someone who is feeling suicidal is necessarily a risk to or people because it isnt true. They are at risk to themselves. I had said before, we are really talking about a small percentage of someone who is suicidal whom might then go on and kill other people. I feel there is a very delicate balance in this discussion and this was one of the most difficult things in writing this book because i believe someone who is struggling with a Mental Illness is really at greatest risk to him or herself. And knowing someone is having thoughts, or they are in pain and wish to die, and they want to pain to stop, this doesnt necessarily make them dangerous to other people. But when all of these factors as i mentioned before are happening in such an unusual way then they can become a risk to other people. But that is not the case and what happens most of the time. When their brain is not working properly, they dont have the tools for selfgovernance. What is the place where violence is a reasonable option. I wanted to raise that discussion because i feel too many people do harm themselves when they are feeling badly and suffering and in distress. We have to find a way to help people and to also acknowledge that sometimes suffering does lead to violent acts against ones self in particular but rarely against others. We cannot be afraid to begin to have that conversation and try to understand what is happening and intervene before it becomes a stage four situation where somebody dies. And you talk into the book about how the media talked about the story and of course it was a story, it was something that was newsworthy but you say there is a way to talk about this responsibwith responsibility. Can you talk about that and why that is important . The media, i think, plays a huge role in inadverantly keeping violence going. We know on reports of suicides that dont follow the death of others there are protocols schools can follow so they dont increase contagin. We need better standards on reporting on violence incidents as well. When columbine happened, it was a world phenomena and one of the reas reasons it was perceived to be a phenomena was it was the beginning of 24 7 news coverage. People were bombarded with images of people running from the school, images of dillion and eric wearing the clothing they wore, showing their names and faces with body counts, there was a fight certainly to release the basement tapes to let people observe how they planned and what they said. The experts i talked to, indicated to me and i support and believe this, this is very dangerous. When we have disenfranchised youth who are observing these events and seeing the attention the perpetrators get it is something that makes them want to do this more. One of the things people tend to forget about columbine is columbine was a copy catted situation. The book is about your journey and reflecting on it. Can you talk about your lessons . Talk about what you learned from the journey you have been on and what you learned. This is going to sound fragmented but they are disjointed. One thing i learned is love is not enough to protect people we love from illness and that illness may be mental or a brain illne illness. I think i believed you could love away someones bad thoughts. Another thing i feel i learned was probably bad advice and that is never trust what you see. What you see may be a lie. Someone you love may be working very hard to wear a mask that hides what he is thinking and feeling. Always be aware of that because it will change the way you interact. I think things i learned about myself more than anything else, i learned from the nature of a tragedy that is complex, and i had the learn on many things not to focus on and how the real work is finding your way back to the grief of the individual you loved that did a terrible thing. And i feel focusing on the grief, especially losses to murdersuicide and suicide, the important way thing to remember is the way they died is not who they are. You talk about the mail you got. Boxes and boxes of mail. You talk about families who wrote in with similar stories and hearing their stories helped you. Where i work, we have support groups and education classes led by people with mental mi illnes and that helps people. Can you talk about why it was helpful for you . After this happens, you feel nothing else can understand what you are going through. I felt like i was living on one planet and everybody else was on a different planet. It was comfortable for me to know i wasnt the only one trying to sort it out. Other people had experienced these things. To see they were going on with their lives, they were productive human beings, they had not let this destroy them was very heartening. It was heartening to see that was possible and maybe some day i would have a life, too, that would feel like a normal life again whatever that means. Can you talk about listening . We find when people move to help someone else and can you talk about how that affected you . Sure. After a loss, we have a need to talk about it. It is like the poem of the rhyme of the Ancient Mariner where the old man wants to tell everybody what he experienced with the al albatros. I think it takes the stain out of it. It allows us to desensatize and get used to hearing that and xoeg it is us and our lives and what we need to live with. It was a marker i came a long way in healing. I was thrilled i got to a place where i no longer needed to talk about my loss but was able to listen to somebody else. When you give somebody the opportunity to talk, tell their story, listen, support, and dont judge, i think that is the greatest gift we can give to another person. You talk in the book about how you wish you had listened more to some of the things that were going on with dillion and his perfectionism and other characteristics. Can you talk about what you listened and what you think was important to have heard . In one of my interviews, i did speak with someone who gave me a question that he recommended. He was a psychiatrist and he said here is something i think every parent of a moody teen should ask and i wish i had this question to ask when he was living. It is this tell me something about yourself that no one understand but causes you pain and then listen for the answer. Dont try to talk about it. Dont try to say yes, but or it is because you are a teenager. Just listen. When they have completed answering the question, then say, tell me more about that. And i share that with everybody i can. It is an open ended question and a way to ask someone and give someone an opportunity to speak, to hear what they have to say, to listen without judgment, to experience empathy for what their experience is, without trying to jump to what to do about it. And you say in the book that as you talk about these things you are not excusing what your son did at columbine. Do you want to talk about that and your feelings about the trage tragedy . I didnt want anyone to think i was concluding dillion was depressed therefore he became a murderer. That is ridiculous and untrue. I cannot ever fully explain how dillion could get into a place where he would willingly consider killing people or in this case blowing up an entire school. That is a question that is hard for me to understand and accept. Yes, he experienced tough culture at the school, yes, he had an influential friend, everything takes us closer to understanding but i dont think i will fully under how it could happen. That is why i so ernestly wanted to donate funds from the book to research, and prevention and support programs because i think we have many answers we need to find. And you mentioned your sons friend, eric harris. Some believe it was the dynamic between the two of them that contributed to the tragedy. What are your thoughts on that . I believe that is true. I believe it is highly likely. I had quite a few experts i talked with supported and substaniated that believe. I believe for whatever reason, reasons i may not understand, there was a chemistry between them, there was an interdependence. Somehow dylan was willing to go along with a plan to blow up the school and kill people. I dont know what it was in dylan that made him able to do that but i believe the impact of that friendship was a significant causal factor. And have you spoken to erics parents at all . Have they talked about the book with you at all . When i get asked questions about the harris or even about my own family i usually try to back off from that question a little bit because individuals who lose family members in murdersuicides, from what i have met, most often dont want to be in the lime light, they dont want to be recognized, they dont want to be talked about. It is too difficult for them to even accept what they did, face what they did, to be reminded what they did over and over again. I am going to protect the privacy of individuals who had been associated with this and say, yes, i have been in contact with them from time to time. Do you feel the same way talking about the familys of the individuals who died at columbine or have you spoken with them or do you prefer not to talk about that . I have communicated with some of them and with a few more as a result of the book publication but i would not share much, if anything, about conversations because i want to protect their privacy as well. And what about dylans friends . I know you talk you had contact with them and this was difficult for them. Do you have any words about friends who, you know, are experiencing something and have to live with the aftermath . Well certainly what happened in the tragedy was like a pebble in water and circles wydens on how it affected people. Some of his friends did have tough times and one required hospitalization. Yes, it was terribly difficult for this friends. In many ways, they were experiencing what we were. Just complete disbelief, you know, unable to put the pieces together so they made sense, and i would say each individual, and it is true of all of the victims in the tragedy, every one of us is processing this in a different way. There is no this is the victims response point of view. Each and every one of us is making whatever meaning we can and building whatever constraint we can to live with this and go on living. One thing you talk about in the book is the fact there is people looking for someone to blame. You talk about that feeling. Can you address that issue and how you came to understand people have that need but it didnt affect you the same way it did in the beginning. It seemed troublesome and difficult but overtime we worked through that. I dont know i will ever work through it completely. It is still very hurtful to hear some things said. It is difficult for us as human beings to be rejected, judged and criticized. It is not difficult because of one situation. Look at the example of road rage where our anger takes over and controls how we behave. I dont think it will ever be something that is easy and comfortable. But i certainly understand peoples need to feel anger. A lot of that stems from some of the early reporting of the tragedy when so many things were said that were false. There was misinformation. And a lot of people imprinted that as fact and still believed to this day that some things, such as nazis or whatever the reason, that those things were true. And the fact the parent said were publically blamed and held accountable by our elected officials contributed to this as well. And i am sorry, i forgot the second half of your question. I think you answered it was how you worked through and you said you are not sure you have and that you will. Right. And one other thing i will say, when people do horrible things and we see Something Like that in the news, all of us want to believe Something Like that could never happen so we have a need to believe the other persons family is different than our own and that is a coping mechanisms for people to deal with the fear and trauma they have. So i understand how it makes people feel better to believe that our family was evil, that dylan wasnt loved, that i was a neglectful, selfcentered mother. That helps people feel Something Like that could never happen to them. You talk about how those things are not true. To you want to talk about dylans growing up and your family life. Right. Certainly ever family has imperfections but i believe i was a good mother, i loved my children dearly. I had been a teacher so i was always thrilled. One of the things that thrilled me most about dylan was his brilliant mind. He was precocious and playful and loving. It seemed every decision we made was to do what was in the best interest of our children. We certainly taught them right from wrong. I used every moment i could find to teach morality and goodness and treating others as we would want to be treated. So, you know, i honestly dont believe the environmental piece of what went on in the family was a causal factor. I did a lot of searching in therapy and i would say i wish i had said this or done this and my therapist would remind you you did that, you said that, and over time i began to try to forgive myself for being his mother and not knowing what dylan had experienced and i still struggle with that. You talk in the book about how dylan was a perfectionist and got upset when things didnt know the way he expected them to. Can you talk about that and how it affected your later views looking back on the tragedy. Yes. Dylan was a gifted child. He was in a gifted program. He was so bright and learned things so quickly. He had a very significant capability to stick with something until it was completed. He experienced a lot of frustration around that. I can still remember hearing him banging on his keyboard in his computer because he was a bata tester for a microsoft product. He would get impatient and frustrated but wouldnt quit and that the was one of the things i treasured about him. When he became an adolescent and things were not coming so easy to him i saw it as a good thing and a lesson n life where he was going to have to loosen up a little bit, accept life isnt perfect and you cannot always make it be the way you want it to be. And when he would be unhappy with a particular incident or something that would happen, i didnt see it as a negative experience in his life. I saw it as something that indicated he was growing and becoming an adult because we have to go through negative experiences to mature. And later you saw signs you thought were troubling looking back on this growth as an adolescent. Can you talk more about how you changed the views from positive to seeing it now as things that should have concerned you. I mentioned earlier one indicator probably things went wrong was in his junior year when he had that spell of trouble and got in trouble at school for hacking into the schools Computer System because he was a computer technician at the school, fort geographic and he got arrested for stealing something and scratching a locker. Those three things occurred. I was concerned and wanted to know if he should see a counselor. But he had no other indicators something was strongly amiss so we took his words for it. He promised he would do better and he did. That was the shocking thing. It was how hard he worked to get his life on track and get into a good college. One of the other things that occurred at the very end of his life, this was within a few weeks of his death, when we went to a School Conference because a teacher indicated this grades in his english class were slipping and his grades in calculus were slipping. At that time, the math teacher said he is sleeping in class. But it was a morning class, he knew how busy he was, he had been accepted at the university of his choice, we thought this was sort of a senioritis. Once they get accepted to college they slack off. And the english teacher told us he had written a disturbing paper and we asked what does this mean . What should we do . Is it something we should be concerned about . And she said i will ask the School Counselor and if he thinks it is a problem they will get back to you. I never saw the paper. After his death, i saw it was a dark and disturbing paper. But at that time, columbine never happened and the parents or the school didnt look at the issue of a violent paper as something that was indicative of the possibility of real declining in thinking. Those are some of the regrets i have. And you know, that is why i come forth and say to people if you have anything in your life that is a concern, never assume it is just teenage angst. It could be something quite serious. And as an advocate for people with Mental Health concerns and families we too tell people to check out and get help early. But we know there are lots of barriers to early intervention. Can you talk about the barriers . You talked about the counselor that did want followup with you. Are the other barriers out there to people getting the right Mental Health care . I think there are all kinds of barriers. And they are planted within all of the different systems we interact with. For example, the criminal justice system. Dylan by being arrested was at a greater risk of suicide. The system wasnt aware of that, we were not aware of that, and that would have been a significant point of counseling where someone said to us you take a kid like dylan, he gets in trouble, his life gets out of control, and that is a dangerous time for that family and child. We were not aware of that. School systems, same thing. There are barriers there. Very few schools have Suicide Prevention programs and protocols. To me, one of the greatest barriers, especially working with youth, is perception about counseling and they dont want to go and get help. I know more individuals than i can count who are struggling with family members woo have issues with Mental Health and addicti addiction. The family member, through their own perception, refuses to get help. That is one of the most challenging barriers. You talk in your book, you mention the criminal justice system, you talk about the Police Officers and their assistance to you, and also we know the trum trauma the Police Officers encounter. Can you talk about the Police Officers you encountered and any insight you have into that topic. My experience with Law Enforcement is certainly a very unusual one. I cannot draw any blanket conclusions. The way that columbine, the tragedy happened, everyone was out of their comfort zone. The situation was that at our home an s. W. A. T. Team came, a bomb squad came, a detective came, all from different districts. So it was an all out bulletin across the state to help. From it Police Perspective it was, i am sure, a nightmare for them. But we fast forward 17 years and i think what is happening now is there is a greater recognition anyone in Law Enforcement, who is going to intervene in a situation, and this involved most of them, should be cittrained. They should have crisis intervention training. And very often, incidents that are handled and brought down to a level of safety because oft of that training. That is one thing i certainly recommend and hope this happens more. I continue to hope individuals in professions that have high stress rates and suicide rates that are high will begin to understand how the mind functions which it is traumatized and some of the limitations and need for better care. So we were very much cut off from how the Community Responded and working close to family and friends so the magnitude of the trauma for the community. In a room, perhaps where the teacher died, ask the trauma they have lived on. The pain is there that still. Can you talk about yourself and your own journey in light of what you experienced, the journey you have gone through, where you have today . Can you talk about where you are now . I tend to believe the people that that day is a sign of pathology and because of that he was a victim of the tragedy just like all of the other victims. And i believe this is true for eric. Some people find that a very difficult thing to hear. They dont want to hear it. And they think i am making an x excuse for my son but it is what i have come to. I believe when we grieve a child i dont think he get over from. All i know is something happened to my son and he became ill and because of that whatever is happening in his mind he died and before he died he killed. And that is part of what i try to live with and learn from. I dont judge other people. Horriblethi things happen to many of us. We continue to love ourselves and care for ourselves. You have gone on to do advocadvoc advocacy in brain health. Can you talk about that one of the experts i used talked about brain health and i thought it was wise. When we talk about Mental Health, the general public, because of that, when you think of this element, the thing that is intangible difference people have. If you think of a brain malfunction as a fizz logical thing when someone has thoughts of suicide that is a symptom of something malfunctioning in ones mind and more than likely has to do with the output of serotonin and the brain receptors receivering and processing it. I believe it helps people to understand and think about when our thoughts are in control of us and selfdestructive, when they are terrifying and confused something is going wrong. It is not a character flaw or not because we dont try hard enough. It is because something is wrong. I think brain illness better describes what is occurring. When we talk about this and people focus on other conditions young people need to think about what is important to them . What i learned from, i talk about the rarity of what happened in dylans case, murder suicide, past shootings, it is a rare incident and the chances of it happening are limited. But the chances someone we love may be feeling suicide or making a plan, i believe they dont want to die they just want to make it stop. The number of High School Kids that had a plan, the numbers are astounding. I believe research on Suicide Prevention, because it is the second leading cause of death, and i dont get into the topic of gun safety. I will mention in the state of colorado, and how this discussion has to occur about how does one recognize in himself or herself when one is at risk . When it is a good idea to limit our access to our firearms . When their brain health is impaired they are at significant risk of using the guns to harm themselves. These are the discussions i want people to have. What have you heard from people now that the book is published . I think people have been upset by the book. It is an upsetting topic. It is one of the things that has occurr occurred that many people have said to me, i think every parent of a teen or tween, should read this book. My hope is by reading the book they will not lose a child as i did. That they will see something can be terribly wrong when it is and not just write it off. So, the fact that people are reading it, and talking about it, is very gratifying. It is what i hoped to accomplish. This is a conversation where people should be talking about their teen and asking what is causing people to talk about it. I think it is important and i appreciate you putting yourself out there with the writing of the book. Is is there anything else you want to talk about or want people to know in terms of your work or your journey that you want people to know . Messages you want people to have . The only thing i will add is Much Research needs to be done, i urge people to support Mental Health organizations, Suicide Prevention organizations, research organizations, because there is so much yet that we need to know to make us all safer and make us have more fulfilling and productive live. Talking with people is one step, but i think helping the nonprofits out there is something that all of us can do. Thank you so much for spending time with me today. I appreciate it very much. Thank you very much. In depth is live on booktv. Our guest, wil haygood is the authors of several books including the most recent showdown Thurgood Marshall and the Supreme Court nomination that changed america. He will be taking questions were the next three hours. Host author wil haygood, you write about black men who heroically manifested themselves into mainstream america. I think my writing is a relentless pursuit to explain all of america. What does that mean . Gue