Its very much attribute to goldwater. In 1960 he felt that the conservative movement and the Republican Party had been compromised by the new deal, and a somebody new to put together a blueprint on where the party and the movement ought to go. Thats what conscience of a conservative was. I think every, everybody since then who has looked at the book and said this is it, this is the manifesto. My thought, i thought i do honor it that way because in a way i think were facing some of the same kind of questions today that the party or the conservative movement has been compromised by populist layer. Host you begin the book by saying i will start by saying that i regret having to write this book. I regret it because its a necessity of the sign the American Conservative Movement which is been a force for great good in our country and to the world is lost. Why is that . Guest Barry Goldwater defined conservatism as one maximum amount of freedom consistent with order, and then the principles have animated that, limited government, economic freedom, individual responsibility, free trade and strong American Leadership around the world. Look at those items and think where are we . In terms of limited government we had a campaign where ive expect the Democratic Party not to want to touch entitlement spending and the republicans have always said no, weve got to do that. Conservatives have to be fiscally conservative. Thats really the central tenet, but instead we said we will not touch that. We will be that the future generations i guess or other campaigns. And then with regard to building the party and playing a game of addition rather than subtraction. Subtraction. I think we went the other way, kind of drill down on some really, on the base with regard to free trade, for example. We are only 5 of the worlds population i. We are less than 25 of the World Economic output. If we dont find new markets for our goods, if we dont recognize this economy that has globalized around us, with the scum we can either be part of it to take invention and harness it or we can be left behind by it. Im afraid we will be left behind by it. Host i want to get to free trade and some of the specific you layout but more broadly we have a republican in the white house, republican control of congress, republicans in the majority of state houses. Explain to someone how conservatism is lost. Guest i remember very well when were in this position just a few years ago. I got to congress in 2001. I ran a conservative think tank in the 1990s, the goldwater institute. Mike pence was running indiana policy review. We knew each other then. We were elected together. During the 1990s the party was really animated by ideas. I still remember and i talk about in the book bill archer, the chairman of the ways and means committee, and dick armey who was then come later the majority leader. They had a book to her when they went around, head of like a book to her but they promoted it like a concert tour where they were debating the merits of the flat tax versus the consumption tax. Climb what you still have the tshirt. Guest i do. I kept it as a reminder when the party stood for principal and actually argued principal. I remember sitting on the floor at one point with mike pence and he said sometimes come after we were presented with the president s bill no child left behind, which for a conservative, think tank conservatives that was federal intrusion into local education. That was anathema to conservatives. Mike said i feel sometimes like we are minutemen called up to the battlefront only be only to be dealt the revolution is over. And so there we were and we had to vote on Prescription Drug benefits which added about 7 trillion in unfunded liabilities. I didnt think that was very conservative. And then republicans engage in just horrible types the spin as well, earmarking arrow was fully underway. 20012006. We really lost our way. And because we couldnt claim that we are fiscally conservative anymore, that was thrown out the window with all that spending, then went to argue things like flagburning and delve into the wage issues. I think in some ways we have never gotten back. We had the majority in the house, in the senate and we had the white house, and we lost it 2006 we lost the house and the senate and 2008 lost the white house. Just because we have those majorities today doesnt mean we will have them even two years now or a year and a half from now. Host i like the anecdote of you and mike pence as freshmen running around to retrieve sound like rainman. Guest taxcut. Host i found a lot of voters and in particular trump voters who think that the academic arguments about the health of conservatism are uninteresting and really the concerns of privileged elite. How do you make the case, rightly i think, that the health of conservatism is an urgent matter that actually has realworld application . Guest i guess you can split two things. You can win elections and if you drink that just for the sake of winning elections, then we can do that. But if we as conservatives want to enact conservative policy, then you have to treat an election like how do we set this up for governing anyways we can move forward with our agenda . If you take one of the items that was big during this last election, the president very effectively realized the concerns of people and a transitioning economy, those in the rust belt in particular. Its very easy for a politician is a right in the book t to poit to a shuttered factory and say because the chinese took your job, or the mexicans took your job. Host and it works. Guest im not denying the popularity of populism. Its called populism for a reason, and if you just want to win elections, i guess you can win one here or there but people you to govern and particularly as a conservative you want to enact conservative policy. It wouldve been better to say yes, its tougher pick anything beyond 30 seconds they say if youre talking along you are losing, but you have to recognize that a factory is shattered probably because of automation and productivity gains. We manufacture twice what we did in the 1980s with onethird fewer workers. There are dislocations. We have to recognize that and more effectively prepare people for the workforce of the future. That doesnt mean we can just tell them hey, if we knock out this trade deal then youll be winning again. Host its harder to explain in a tweet or at a rally in a campaign focus. Guest the whole tweeting culture, you cant reduce complex policy problems to 140 characters and it is difficult. I think its the responsibility of conservatives first and foremost to have some policy at least to say hey, you have a factory job, you may be trashing out of it. This economy is going to change. What transitioning it would be disrupted. Thats what we will have a situation to prepare for the future. Not tell them hey, were going to get your jobs back. These coal jobs are all coming back. Its not honest. Host you talk about that, dick armey, bill archer tour. We can your a lot of those debates over ideas during the election. Can big ideas still win hearts and minds . Guest i think, i hope it makes a comeback. I think when voter start to value actually not just an election when, but progress toward enacting conservative goals. And as a conservative, this president nominated neil gorsuch to the supreme court. Thats a big deal for conservatives, a big deal for me. I was very pleased to help shepherd his nomination to the Judiciary Committee and then on the floor. Thats a great win that will have conservative implications i think in the future. Another nomination to the federal bench and other cabinet appointments. Thats the start of good conservative policy. If we can follow through now. Part of my concern revolves around not just being conservative in terms of policy, but being conservative in terms of the meanest and comportment and manners and in foreignpolicy, conservative needs to be steady and needs to be sober and predictable. And respect our institutions and those International Institutions that have served as well for so long. And anything else is not conservative. Host sticking to domestic policy for now, that obsession you had with tax cuts. As a freshman its why i became a conservative for fiscal policy. Can tax cuts and starve the beast fiscal conservatism, can the bill appeal, cannot break through . It doesnt feel sexy enough . Guest not when you put it like that. Starve the beast may be get a reaction and a think tanker whatnot but not out there. What it is is people understand, you talk to Small Businesses out there, large corporations, they will say the same thing. We have to have, were competing globally now more than ever. We have to have a conducive tax and Regulatory Environment and we dont have that right now. With regard to corporate taxes we are among the highest in the world. On regulatory policy we were getting way out of whack. I do think the president has pushed back and i think the reaction and fact we had 2. 6 Economic Growth when that eclipses anything weve had recently, thats in large measure due to people assume that will move forward on tax policy and have regulatory policy that is conducive. I think thats important if you explain it to people like that come if we load regulations, Small Business people in particular understand that well. But boy, whether its healthcare regulations, financial regulation, environmental regulation, Labor Regulation is been allconsuming. Host you tell a very moving story about how to immigrants the muslim majority countries saved the life of your fatherinlaw. And then you also later talk about how antimormon bigotry drove your family to arizona. Talk about trumps muslim ban with those two experiences as a backdrop. Guest when the president in december of 2015 announced he would have an muslim ban, it was put over as a muslim ban. That to me come anything to the heart of any mormon just, thats a dagger. People who may not know the history in the 1840s, there was an extermination order in the state of missouri for mormons. Basically fair game, go at them. That stayed in the books until about 1975 by the way. Certainly wasnt utilized much beyond the 1840s, but the mormons were driven to their to illinois and then ultimately across the plains to utah, and my great, great great grandfather was among that group. But so that was kind of fresh in our minds. And when you say theres a muslim ban, there might as will be a mormon van, or a mexican man, it just doesnt sit right. And when that was announced i took my family and we went to a mosque in which you daily prayers just to say we didnt agree with that, and that wasnt a tradition republican position. It was later modified to be a travel ban and i would argue the latest iteration is constitutional. Part of it has been upheld, part of its hasnt so its not the constitution aspect. The muslim ban is clearly unconstitutional with the way it out is in. I didnt think h it was very wi. I believe that if were going to win this war on terrorism, this war against radical islam we have to recognize that and not ascribe radical islamic views to every muslim. And thats kind of what a muslim ban certainly does, and this travel ban, i explained in the book how that came about and the six countries that ultimately ended up there. People tend to think that was president obamas list and that was a tried and true and a list that was deliberated on. It really wasnt. I talking about how that came about. If we are going have a band thats based on geography or by country, at least have some deliberative process we choose those countries. And we didnt go through that. But i explain in the book my fatherinlaw had kind of a heart attack or a ruptured aorta last november, and rushed to the hospital and ultimately 11 hour surgery, the first surgeon saved his life. But then his heart just wouldnt start and so they had to bring in a new, its an echo machine which would circulate the blood and keep his heart going on the other organs going while the heart recovered. The man that did that was from the mayo clinic by the name of race, a palestinian i believe race in lebanon. He was raised in afghanistan. If we have these types of bands, people for majority muslim countries, then we would lose out on a lot of the talent being in the medical field and hightech or anything else that we rely on. In this case very much saved my fatherinlaw is life. Host did it bother you that the thought of this muslim ban actually appeal to a lot of people . Guest it did. Im not discounting the popularity of it. I am sorely not blaming the voters and population. Its partly because politicians often will exaggerate that threat or paint with a broad brush, that it is intended to rile people up. And so i dont blame those ultimately who have that sentiment, as much as a blame those of us in a position to do otherwise who dont. Host gold waters book was also controversial on mainly because of its stance on the Civil Rights Act at the time. These are trying times in america for racial divide. What role do you think conservatives need to play in bridging that racial divide . Guest i think one that really touches on the racial divide is immigration. Immigration reform. I do think the republicans need to be the party that welcomes immigrants. I cant member effort into it so much in a book or not but i talk about when tim kaine was chosen by Hillary Clinton as a running mate. His first speech was in florida, and you spoke often in spanish in that speech where he spoke very movingly of a naturalization ceremony that he had attended, or others that he had attended. And i thought of that time, that should be us. That used to be us. Thats what the Republican Party, what we celebrated those who have made it here and wanted by choice to be an american. And i thought we were giving u, and it really hurt during this campaign. If we look into the future, after the 2012 election, republicans, we sat down and did the famous autopsy which concluded we got to appeal to a broader audience. And when you look at that audience, george w. Bush won in 2000, getting 56 of the white vote. Mitt romney lost in 2012 getting 59 of the white vote. So every two years, the electorate is about 2 less white, and if we dont have a message that is appealing to everyone, if we have a message that some groups feel that theyre being targeted are left behind or left out, then we are not going to be successfully electorally, and i would submit its not a conservative message to not have a message that appeals to everyone, and feel that we can include everyone. Host i want to make the subject thats very important to me, fake news. You say that only in democratic, at the democratic regimes do we allow alternate fax to compete with the truth. President trump seems pretty hellbent on undermining the truth, and the police that a strong free pres press is one oe best mechanisms of getting at the truth. How do conservatives and citizens combat that . Guest will, i devote an entire chapter in the book on that because it is so important. I say in there we have the first amendment, gratefully, that protects the freedom of the press, the freedom of information and we ought to cherish that and hold to it all we can. Theres been some talk in other governments, in europe, democratic governments putting severe limits, big fines for what would later be determined fake news. That doesnt work here, it shouldnt work here. So you hope that there some kind of market response that people in the end will value real news over fake news. But it is really concerning when you look at, i talk in the chapter a lot about this canard and old Conspiracy Theory about barack obama and where he was born. There were a lot of us who came out and said from the beginning, dont traffic in nonsense like that. Dont do it. Dont go there. But i think too many conservatives were silent or engaged in that. And that is very hurtful. Not just to those who were involved or were targeted by that. But by the entire process. A democracy depends on some shared fax, some truths that are self evident. And if we dont have that, we are in real trouble. I was really concerned the other day to see apple that said 49 of republicans believe that donald trump won the popular vote. Donald trump won the electoral college. Thats all thats important. Thats what is making our legitimate president. But he didnt win the popular vote. That is a truth that should be self evident, but because of new sources pushing things out, that are not right, too many people are believing it. It is a big problem. We havent found a solution to it. I hope its a market kind of solution were people will value real news, but is going to be a problem for a long time. Host in particular, because primary trafficker of that birther conspiracy was donald trump, profited on that, is a president. So stop a lot of lessons about not trafficking in fake news or conservative theories conspiracy case. The point is a is this is where it will get you. A cat you to the white house. Guest im glad he dropped it. Im glad that he did but i do think its incumbent upon elected officials to when things are just so demonstrably untrue, that just the answer, we can go there. Host i want to go to free trade. You talk about the 2016 election and all the conservative positions on trade and Global Economy that seemingly overnight abandoned in favor of quote back of the envelope populist slogans. But as we talked about earlier though slogans really resonated with a lot of americans. Did voters what comes to free trade, did voters reject your version of conservatism . Guest in this case, if you were given two choices, something easy or something hard, an easy answer or a hard truth, you know, its more attractive to take the easy choice, particularly when youre entertained in the process. This was an entertaining election. But that doesnt absolve us of recognizing we have to tell the truth. And the truth is, when there is a shuttered factory, its more complex than china to those jobs. And so what i am concerned about is when we come off this sugar high, what happens then . What happens when those coal jobs dont return . Let me just say in arizona, for example, we have a coal plant in Northern Arizona called the navajo generation station. For years when trying to keep it open protecting it against onerous regulations, environmental regulations that were threatening its close and it just could make a Cost Effective giving the regulations. But then we got to now when maybe some of those regulations might be right sized or more appropriate. But then the market changed completely and natural gas is so cheap that, overnight, that was simply not economically viable for the future. You couldnt impose that on ratepayers so is closing down. But it would be easy to say no, its regulation thats keeping this, or stopping us in keeping this plant going. But in truth now its the market and thats the case with a lot of manufacturing. Like as it would a lot more of it, just more efficiently and requiring fewer workers. But those are hard truths that will have to either talk about now or talk about later. And what i fear is that if we win elections based on talking about the easy things, then its a particularly hard fall later on. We might as well just tell the truth. Host you talk about vote no, ops politics and the dangers of that. You wrote that maintaining ones ideological purity for political reasons is neither principled or considered. First explain what you mean by that . Guest i gave one particular example where i felt that i hope yes, and voted no, when we had the big bailout, the tarmac, troubled assets. That was an awful thing and i felt fully justified, voting against it. I had not voted in terms of regulations, relieving the israeli whatever else that may have caused this. I didnt vote for spending that may have led to it. And so i felt i can just vote no and it did. Host voting against bailouts is what we do, right . Guest exactly. I did and the stock market drop i think of what was it, 7 in just a few hours after the house did. And i thought at the time, it, im still going to vote for this, i will let, but at that time, believe me, i was believing what hank paulsen and ben bernanke were saying, that a think one memorable line i quote in the book, somebody asked what happens on monday if we dont do this . He said if we dont do this we wont have an economy on monday. It was particularly stark, and so i believe in at that point but i relied on other people, my colleagues to provide the votes so i could protect my sterling voting record against all that kind of spending. And i regretted that later because i thought i have just let somebody else carry my water. I still, dont know if i wouldve been justified voting no. But as roy blunt put it memorably come he was a member of leadership in the house at that time. He told nhl in the book of the old story of Colonial India with a built, the british built his golf courses and the monkeys kept coming and taking the ball and they couldnt eradicate the monkeys off of the course, so they developed a role that you play the ball where the monkey throws it. And so thats what he said at the time. We may not have caused this what weve got to play the ball where it was thrown. I think of the people that and i didnt. Host the Democratic Party right now is going through a similar struggle, when it comes to the issue of abortion. Some prominent democrats have said we not going to fund a democratic candidate who happens to be prolife. What do you think about that kind of existential crisis that theyre having . Guest we kind of have it on both sides, but they are certainly having it there. If you have a party that can be a party that wins elections and governs, its tough to be pure on everything and use every issue as a litmus test. Certainly the Republican Party is i hope we can provide a big tent. We have to if were going to survive in the future. Not that we dont fight for every principle but we have to assume that not everyone has the same constituency or has exactly the same beliefs. Theres always Barry Goldwater said at one point, this is a quota as much as his Convention Speech but he said something like, politics is nothing more than public business. Sometimes you make the best of the next bargain, and so even the most principled and the people we look to recognize that you sometimes have to compromise to get going in the right direction. I think certainly were finding that on healthcare. Wouldve been nice to be able to do it exactly in the image that we wanted to, but thats not where we are. Host i think some might argue that sounds like a defense of the trump who wa is not an ideological purist by any means. Someone who makes decisions based on the situation without real political philosophy behind it. Do you see that is maybe some good in him . Guest there is, when you have the president , a leader of a party, there are obvious at times when you swallow hard and you dont accept things that you dont want to. But i think you have to have your Core Principles that drive at least your instincts and gently moving in the right direction. And however you feel on the policy side, you have to recognize that being a conservative means that somewhat eventempered and temperate, and have manners. And dont refer to your political opponents in ways that make it difficult to work with them in the future. So i thought of it is back to demean and comportment. Host im glad you brought that up because to a person can anyone you ask in this town, washington, what they think of jeff flake, they will say that you are one of the nicest people on the hill, and i cant disagree. You famously modeled bipartisanship by marin yourself on a Desert Island with a friend of mine, martin heinrich, a democratic senator. But trump mocks our cries for civility over the course of the campaign and he said look, weve got too many big problems to worry about tone, the tone in our politics. Why is he wrong . Guest i think hes wrong because in the end, particularly in the senate, when it requires 60 votes to do just about anything, if you dont get along with your colleagues, you dont achieve any ends let alone conservative ends. There are severe limits of what you can do under rules of reconciliation. We found the spirit we have discovered those. And so i just, i think theres never a bad time to be good. I mentioned in one of the chapters about my own upbringing and watching models behavior in my own life, people and elected position. I grew up in snowflake, a small town. My father served as mayor and he served on boards and commissions and was involved in Public Service. My uncle jake flake from snowflake, the speaker of the house in arizona will be loved by both sides and he teamed up with jack brown a democrat from st. Johns where the udall family counseling, mostly democrats. But they modeled behavior and to think as a role on the you have to do that. When you grow up on a ranch as i did and watched my brothers, my father and his brothers run the ranch and my Seven Brothers and four sisters, you kind of have to get along. If you dont do the work, nobody does it. I think that tells, how City Councils were all over the country. Thats our state legislature to have to work because they cant borrow money and put on decisions they should have to make now. We just havent been able to do it here. I think we can get away sometimes in congress, we shouldnt but we do get away with behavior that wouldnt be tolerated at any other level of government. But because we can just paper over our differences by spending more money and having a bigger deficit and putting up decisions that we should be making now, its just, its not the example that i grew up with. My parents, i was mention my mother on our fridge, she had for as long as i can remember the phrase, assume the best, look for the good. I think thats a good credo for any politician when youre looking at the other side, assume the best and look for the good. Host these crisis can bring unexpected allegiances. Can conservatives and liberals find some common causes right now . If so, what . Guest the big one that we need to come together on is our looming debt and our massive deficit. The deficit is about 600 billion. It will be over 1 trillion and a couple of of years according to cq. It will be added to our 20 trillion of debt every year. At some point the markets are going to respond. Not in a good way and say we are no longer a good bet. And it would become like greece like japan or the country that just will be digging out for decades, if not generations. I dont want to get to the point but in order to get there, if you look at every good budget agreement with that over the past 40 years, spend when we that divided government, when republicans and democrats have set down is all right, lets show the political risk, lets both out of this deal, lets get enough in each party to go along with this. That was reagan and tip oneill. It was Graham Rudman hollings becomes a budget you in 97. You name it, thats what heaven and will have to have another when one Party Controls both chambers and the white house because that part of what to do with an talbots pity because he of the party if if they dont help, and the party that does it airs all blame in the next election. Thats the issue where we got to come together. Weve got to sit down and say lets share the political risk. Host lastly, talk about the future of conservatism. Under President Trump a lot of people wondering whats next. Where to begin . What do we take the movement, where do we take the party . Guest i think that the principles that are outlined in the book, that goldwater outlined, limited government, economic freedom, individual responsibility, those of the principles that if animated the party for so long. And really are i think kind of the founding vision that our Founding Fathers had, and the of served us well and serve as well long into the future. It will take different forms, given the age were in, technology and globalization, its configured a little differently but those principles are timeless. I think the future is bright for conservatism if we can stick to those principles and behave well while we do. And not assume the worst motives to our political opponents. I think the future is bright. When you look at what weve gone through, and my first day in the senate, they took us all, the newly elected senators, to the national cathedral, not the cathedral, and reviewed all the founding documents and then went to the legislative fault and saw the host of allegiance signed by revolutionary war soldiers witnessed by general washington. It was an incredible evening, but one thing i came away with was we have come to some really serious things, civil war, you know, and womens right to vote, civil rights struggles, weve got through them. We can get through some big things. These challenges today i dont think are as serious as those. So if we come together and work in good faith we can get through it. And i think with conservative principles leading the way. Host thanks. Guest thank you. Cspan, where history unfolds daily. In 1979, cspan was greater as a Public Service by americas cabletelevision companies and brought you today by your cable or satellite provider. Host now joining us on booktv is james hudson, author of this book, bankers and empire how wall street colonized the caribbean. Professor, what was your goal with this book