This is lovely to get to interview on a book that i think its fantastic i read in one sitting in founded of silly fascinating so my first question to you is how and the world could you write this so quickly because you are referencing things that happened april and may and the book just came out. It is great to speak with you im glad you enjoyed the book. At was a bit of a frenzied. I publish a new book about every seven years and i give myself a break between but i just wanted to get it out as quickly as possible there are a couple of chapters focused on what we should expect if there is a crisis in the United States of an economic crisis or a major security crisis. And i felt so passionate that there needed to be a political disaster prepared this around progressives that i just wrote what i had never written before also working with a publisher that was committed to getting it out very quickly that Publishing Industry nearly finished the book then it creeps along the process in all of these stages for another four months. But in this case everybody works so hard to get it out in recordbreaking time i very lucky to work with the publisher that is as committed to the political moment as i am. A feet is a great contribution to millions of people situation to say what do i do . And obviously from the title no is not enough but i also see the book as the amazing coming together of your work that starts with no low go and the of branding into the shop doctrine even with your climate work of this changes everything you are the quintessential antitrust that is the opposite of what trump stands for so maybe we should start with how you start the beginning of the of book looking at trump as the quintessential printing. Yes. And as you know, medea , medea, many of us has been on this journey and before i published any books that all that i would describe as the underside of branding was behind those beautiful logos as the marketing got better and better in the 90s turning into art in the airbus of nike but as they would up the ante they divested from the of world of work with the web of contractors and subcontractors who ever was willing to produce of product even cheaper because of course, even in your work was part of the process to expose those horrific conditions that were the most invaluable branson the world so i look at trump as a hollow brand that we hear not in the product business theyre really up through the 80s that it was the iconic brand in the a marketplace where they branded those products and logos but it 90s he started to see companies announcing they were in the a. D. Is business to project that idea on his many extensions as possible and disney opened celebration florida to live inside your favorite plant in brand and trump did this with realestate starting off traditional but quickly going into the stratosphere where it was less about building buildings and more about building his brain and then selling his name for very high prices to other developers who wanted to have the name on the side of their tower or resort. So this cable often at the expense of workers we have heard a terrible conditions for workers in the Trump Properties or their branded clothing around the world. So here you have a guy who can put millions of dollars of one building just by putting his name on it then he becomes president and as you say is a possible to separate out trump and his family and the Family Businesses with the clothing line now as the president. Because i dont think they can separate pact i dont know of his personal identity and said commercial brand begins. You cannot disentangle the man from the of brie and they do have to entities. Every time these sets foot in one of his properties the White House Press corps allows says company to sold more memberships or rent for ruth lazore increase of feet so how can you possibly separate this man from the brand . That particular challenge with trump he enters politics nut plate played by the traditional rules but the only rule of brandy is stayed true to your brain and so in the 1990s many activist exposed those Companies Like the promise of their brand like a Family Friendly itos because of products were made under conditions that were abusive to young people so they were vulnerable and they had to be responsive but he is said different kind of grant because it was the idea of absolute power that was the promise of the trump brand since the 80s publishing the art of the deal selling he uses the word killer in doesnt mean that literally but when he describes the art of the deal is about screwing over other people with nothing with the mutual beneficial agreement so he gets away with it. So he has a Consumer Base that has as aspirational identity that they have lost power on many fronts and that attainment of the of power that they want and that is hard to hold him accountable you catch him lying or cheating horror being nasty and the thing that could hurt a traditional politician even the of brand identity had more aspirational components truck is not hurt by any of this because it confirms his identity as a guy who gets away with anything because he is so rich pro. The only way you could hurt the trump rand is he is not as powerful as he seems to be. That hurts the brand identity. This word emoluments that most of never heard of before. They think it is a moisturizer. [laughter] now there are lawsuits in court to say he is making money illegally from the presidency is it just foreign entities to take rooms as part of those illgotten gains . Is there anything to that . It may well be it is interesting timing with the release of the book the data book came amount the news came that the general had launched this lawsuit alleging a violation of the constitution on those grounds and 100 lawmakers filed a lawsuit to of their own because what the constitution says is the president cannot do this without the permission of congress so there already was a lawsuit by a d. C. Restaurant and restaurant workers bet the significance of Congress People that they should have been consulted. They have the most legitimacy of the party to make this challenge and we may well discover trump is not as immune as eating says he is and i would just also add that the examples that we have heard how he is receiving gifts for foreign governments and i think there is a case to be made to have defense at the Trump Properties to ingratiate themselves to the president but there are other things to what gatt as well that the Chinese Government is granting a waiver of trademarks to sell their products in china but i am most disturbed that hasnt got enough Media Attention is the Chinese Government has detained laborer monitors that were investigating one of the phone does ivanka factories. But they see this president has not divested and they believe these are the favors into good graces of a president who is very concerned of his personal and Family Wealth soties six is on the phone to say rest to those people that the Chinese Government would think that it would be helpful to do to get rid of those whistleblowers. One of the points you make in the book that this isnt anything new talking about the clintons using Bear Foundation as a place that people could curry favor so could you tell us how that stage was set . My over arching goal was to ruth tried to challenge this because he is so unlike any president before there is the idea that if he could only be in peach that everything would be fine. Im not saying one way or another but if he has impeachable offenses that he should be impeached but that is where we were before trump that was not a safe place to prevent somebody else who could be even more dangerous with these qualities from taking power once again. So with is a bipartisan process the table that was set for trump. This is just politics but media and News Coverage that all he needed to do was just show what we are already treating elections like reality tv shows that was maurer interested in interpersonal drama but we already have democrats using the tools of corporate branding obama was a fantastic rand using those cutting edge marketing techniques to be behind the claims with change and transformation that there was not enough. Something else that set the table of the of the liberal idea that the clintons were central to was all about how billionaires to use that great wealth they amassed didnt deal regulation to fix the problems that we look at that Global Initiative with that currying of favor that its even more significant is the of model with the initiative would do and even get the notice from Richard Branson that he would profit from his airlines and as it turns out he did not make good on the promise of the money for public there was no accountability so to have a tremendous power over africa to play a role that is similar that they people argue that this idea of this complex help to create for trump to stand up with the American People to say trust me because i am rich because already as a culture asking as if the ability to make money in one area with that infinite wisdom and how was that pitch . But volume so rich that you need me to fix america. Also talking about setting the stage to Ronald Reagan that government is part of the problem rather than the solution then you talk about the clinton era and then the failure of president obama to hold didnt hold the bankers accountable setting the stage for the Economic System to allow the transfer of wealth to be so skewed in society. For those that enter into government maybe you could talk about how the Trump Administration has taken that to extremes to eliminate that middle million you dont have to wine and dine. This is of the process that trump started but taking into New Territory and though the ceo of exxon secretary of state the first in history with ties of Corporate America that is a significant example. It isnt a new process but in cheney very significantly it was one of optics and halliburton is something people have not heard of before cheney it was hugely important but not high in the branded. So appointing the ceo of excellent one of the most controversial in the world under investigation by the states attorneys general that they had misled their shareholders because the scientists were researching back in the 70s and that each 80s but exxon was under lot of pressure when trouble pointed the co he worked there his entire working life never had worked anywhere but so it is a continuation of all of that to date cheney and at least to listen divested from exxon before becoming secretary of state. But as you talk about so eloquently in the book now is deal to give away to Corporate America so maybe we should talk about, not even six months into the administration and what has been doing to go through the top wish list of the of fossil fuel companies and the bankers of the of militaryIndustrial Complex . Letter those items that we already see the seeing Corporate America . I do think they should be getting more because there is a lot of focus on exposing what they believe is a conspiracy and surely that should be investigated but there is the systematic and orderly transfer of wealth from the lower and middle income it really is the connective tissue of everything that Trump Administration is doing to get the 50 corporate tax. That 15 percent is the massive gift also getting rid of the estate tax that only benefits the very wealthy and has been on the wish list of major republican donors for a long time. He may get that through because so much attention is focused on what he called the the trump show. It sold out everywhere with he turned his extra marital affair of marla maples into a live action in soap opera he has always understood the power of destruction. Now some of that is orchestrated by those who like to leave information so that is put on him like the Russian Investigation but all of this draws our eyes away from the economic front climate is a huge giveaway to the oil and gas industry with deregulation one of the first things he did was rolled back field on the initiative to increase fuel efficiency standards one of those decisions was to a better document of methane in the gas industry we actually dont know the extent the gas industry in particular that fracking is doing. So there are new measures to abide by in these are one of the first things also we will not have Accurate Information about how much she missions are going up under trump. That is a few examples but the Health Care Plan celebrated in the rose garden was used as the back door redistribution of wealth. It is unfortunate we did not focus on this enough with Social Security and health care because it goes against what he promised on the campaign trail i do think he and his free and is vulnerable the make America Great brand had a particular promise to bring back jobs. I think we will see that with trade he promised to renegotiate that it was better for workers with a new era of fair trade meanwhile the commerce secretary says they will be negotiate nafta for that partnership that went through the United States. So this is where i think he is much more vulnerable and getting a fraction of what he deserves and the trump show is always sold out. One of those statistics of 190 executive corps the first three months in office but then what they decided to do is for those who visit the white house anymore. The focus on russia takes the eyes of so many things of the military Industrial Complex he already bloated pentagon budget wants to be increased with 54 billion in the weapons industry shot up but there was no attention paid for that. But it is more than that that, ed medea. He is a traveling weapons salesmen. The sum total of his Foreign Policy with saudi arabia, he praises them because they purchased a bunch of u. S. Weapons. He sent a message this is how you get into our good graces. So now potter has done the same thing with their weapons increase this is how they try to cool down tensions with saudi arabia and he lectures of nato members not to pull their weight i am a canadian american citizen but then they went home to announce a massive increase in military spending purpose of this is how the world unfortunately sees that this is the way to get into the good graces of this administration to buy hundreds of millions of dollars of weapons. But also set the stage to recognize under the Obama Administration countries like saudi arabia became the number one weapons purchaser under obama who brag they sold 110 billion to those regimes so there we see the said stage by those democrats to proceeded trump so here you set the stage talking about getting prepared for the shock to combat also what theyre doing to resist him now and the whole premise of the book no is not enough, look at what has been done in the first several months of the trouble administration. So maybe we should spend some time on that then why that is not enough. We have this incredible wave of resistance and we see that it can win with that travel ban and that amazing surge of people going to airports across the country to say no end rejecting this to embolden local officials and Congress People to go to the airport, lawyers or even church judges to stand up. Everybody who i know is involved in political organizing says they have never seen that lovell of interest that whip recordbreaking numbers of women at the march they want to understand democracy better and educating themselves in people trying to voodoo internal work with their own internal racism showing up for Racial Justice. And this is inspiring with a collective memory of september 11 and a lot of people described being in shock but also of to use deep in solidarity to make us shock resistant this is important because if heaven forbid there is an attack in the United States we already know how a trump will respond. He really believes immigrants even though the bomber was born in the United Kingdom and then trump treated this is why we need the travel day and. There is a lot of things on the trump agenda some have been stopped some they have not even in tried to do but the education agenda is extremely radical. So i a. M. Concerned about a security shot but also the economic crisis. The ways in which people came together very courageously to reject what they saw as being a force to pay for the crisis with the bankers and lost wages. They said no at the polls and on the street, but there wasnt really enough of a vision for what kind of economy they wanted instead. I make the case for us to do the work for a forwardlooking vision and racial and Environmental Justice thats really bold and can inspire people. I think that is our best defense against demagogues who are tapping into real pain and mixing it with some insidious ideas and to hold up that promise of a better life. When he issued the manifesto which is a very bold document about fully funded Public Health care thats about getting rid of tuition fees and a bold transition to Renewable Energy, that is really what inspires people, particularly young people to turn out in record numbers. I think also the fact that he took on the form policy issues and after there were those attacks in england, rather than just saying the platitudes, he said we have to look at our policies overseas and the over throwing of gadhafi and how it creates resentment and blowback at home. There are not major politicians in the u. S. Who have been willing to say that. But that may change. I think people are paying attention to how the atmosphere has shifted. When Jeremy Corbin did that, when he talked about the underlying causes, he was absolutely savaged in the British Press and his comments were described as monstrous by some that it didnt hurt him. It may have helped him because i think there is, at this late stage in the war on terror, and appetite for getting at those root causes just as it resonated in the u. S. When Bernie Sanders talk about Climate Change as a security issue. He was marked by the elite opinion makers. But it resonated with a lot of voters. Lets talk a little bit about the Bernie Sanders campaign and the kind of ideas he talked about that have become more commonplace, and i want to quote from you, youre saying what was unsalable for decades is now being set out loud by candidates who win millions of votes, free college tuition, double minimum wage, Renewable Energy, d muller tries the police. Refugees are welcome here. Wars make us all less safe. Could you talk a little bit about how some of those ideas have become more acceptable and it wasnt really from Bernie Sanders campaign. This is the moment were in and its an exciting moment because for me, i grew up in the neoliberal era. My childhood was in the 80s, the are era of reagan and thatcher and there was no alternative. That was about advancing a set of radical free market ideas, privatization deregulation, taxes paid for with cuts to spending with huge expansions. That was sold based on the idea that there was no alternative to it. Elites had to break their own rules right out in the open. Everyone saw it was possible to find trillions of dollars after we were told there was no money for schools or daycare or hospitals. The spell was broken. We are in this time period where the progressive imagination is being unleashed. Now the utopian imagination is being rekindled. You see it in documents like the vision for black lives which is really an exciting bold policy document that is how to get at the underlying causes behind violence. Its about changing society and the economy with Racial Justice at the center. Ive been involved with the project at the leap. Org which is a similar approach, but just as progressive ideas are surging in popularity and were saying the unsalable and theyre doing better than the entire expert class predicted, its also the case that far right ideas are also more popular than they been at any point in my lifetime. I see this is a race against time because when there is this vacuum where this elite consensus used to be, and as it collapses a lot of things are shifting. Another contradiction i see is that the Progressive Movement is way ahead of the Democratic Party, for example. You see a fight in baltimore where the people had one through pushing the city council to a 15. Hour minimum wage and the democratic mayor of baltimore then vetoed that. I wonder what you think about how to move a Democratic Party that is supposed to be more progressive and yet doesnt seem to have caught up to the popular sentiment in a lot of these issues. So the energy is huge out there with more and more deep progressives committed to taking power and seeing that it is possible. With Bernies Campaign getting 13 million votes and caring 22 states, there is really the belief out there that i did not have until now better winning Progressive Coalition is within reach. It is possible and we know he had weaknesses that many women didnt feel comfortable, but he really got, how precarious many womens rights are. Many involved in Racial Justice issues didnt feel like he fully integrated that into his campaign, but it wasnt enough to really capture, if he had been able to capture 50 of the black vote, he would have been able to win. It isnt that the democratic spaces to right wing, there were key constituencies he wasnt able to reach. If that changes next time around, that Winning Coalition is out there and people know it. I think if the Democratic Party does not come to its senses and keeps trying to fight off history, then people will leave the party. This is what im hearing. Theres very much alive debate about this. If we look at what happened in the uk, Jeremy Corbin was fought at every single turn. He won the leadership and then was sabotaged and freight engine faced an internal crew and he held on. Now, after the Election Results that were so surprising where he won 32 seats when he was supposed to have been wiped out, people are having to admit that this is actually the way to win elections. We will see whether the Democratic Party will learn from the, but i dont think it will come easily. I think it will be a fight. There are some people who think its not even worth fighting within the Democratic Party and we will see. Its tough because there are so many other examples in europe where it hasnt been transformation from within traditional parties, its actually been new parties that have crept up that have captured the public imagination and one tremendous victory, whether it was in spain or greece or the progressive parties in france or import portugal so who knows how ago. The hard thing in the u. S. Is we have a winner take all system that makes it so difficult. That is the really hard part. If you there was a different electoral system, it would be a bit of a nobrainer in terms of starting a new party giving how much persistence there is. You brought up the issue of race and you talk about it a lot in the book. You talk about the movement for black lives and you also talk about the Indigenous Community, and in canada you have a very strong Indigenous Community thats been on the forefront of a lot of the environmental struggles and you have a very compelling chapter about your experience at Standing Rock. I think your view about how we move to a Different Society is one where people of color and the wisdom of indigenous communities have to be in the lead. How did you come to that conclusion . Im a journalist first and foremost. This book comes from talking to a lot of people and movements were organizing and this is the wisdom of our movement. This is where the energy is. In canada, every single key environment will battle has always been led by Indigenous People. This is true, to a large extent, in the u. S. As well. I wrote that because it was so moving to be there, when i was there which is when the Obama Administration finally denied the easement, but trump had already won the election. They understood that this victory was on borrowed time and that trump would probably reverse it, but the reason i wanted to include that experience in the book is because its the kind of leadership i saw him Standing Rock in the people i spoke too, the analysis was so deeply holistic that this was a Racial Justice battle, that the pipeline had originally been rooted through bismarck, and overwhelmingly white city and had been rejected because of Water Quality concerns. It was moved to underneath the single ranking water source. Its absolutely a classic example of environmental racism. That was one piece of it, but it was also very much about Climate Change and understanding that we cannot keep expanding the fossil fuel frontier if we want to have any hope of protecting a livable planet for our kids. It was also profoundly about standing up to Corporate Power and militarized police because the Water Protection were up against Police Forces that looks like an army, tanks and all the privatized surveillance equipment, so i quote one owner in the book about how it was all of it. You can talk about intersection audi which is a wonderful phrase from kimberly crenshaw, and African American legal scholar and feminist who has given us this term, but at Standing Rock, it was just life, anything its helpful sometimes to not talk about something in theory but talk about it as a lived experience and how its playing out on the land and on peoples bodies. You also bring up in the Standing Rock chapter in which i thought myself having travel there is that it was about winning the right to the land to do what they want with their property, but it was also showing a different way of living together and how this experience profoundly change the people who came to see what it was like to be in the struggle under the leadership of the individua Indigenous People and how different it has been, the profound sense of connection in the language of protectors rather than protesters and do you think this will carry on or has it had an impact on people who are part of this movement . I think everyone who was there was changed by it. Standing rock embodied the title of the book know is not enough because as soon as the victory was one to stop the pipeline, it was a temporary victory but its not over and theyve also won an important legal victory and what hes done with pushing through this pipeline is a legal so they havent stopped fighting, but as soon as that came down from the army corps of engineers, immediately everybody who i talked to wanted to say now the real work starts. Now we can turn this reservation into a shining example and we want to get to one 100 Renewable Energy and Start Building an economy that would never need a new oil pipeline. The know was necessary to be able to get to the yes. I think this is sort of where we are, we have to weave the know and the yes together and that was so inspiring. In terms of how this plays out , the truth is we dont know. Ive been involved in social movements to never believe a movement obituary. Our movements are always declared over, whether its occupy wall street or the anti globalization movement, but those of us who have been involved in the struggles know that the infrastructure, the ideas, the teaching, the people are part of earlier movement and learn from past mistakes. I dont think movement dies. They go into a period of gestation and reemerge in turn into something else. Occupy wall street turned into occupy sandy and then many people from occupy went on to form the digital box down of Bernie Sanders campaign and are continuing to learn new lessons, share information. We just dont know where those teachings go. I want to also emphasize that in your book, while you are not naive about how dangerous the Trump Administration is, i loved the analogy you used two being in one of those automatic tennis things were your being hit by the ball and you take a swing and you might get one or two but you feel like youre always being battered. On the other hand you talk about the trump agenda is not all controlling and the trump space is not all controlling. I just want to read from this part where you say they dont control what cities and states do, they dont even control what congress does a lot of the time, they certainly dont control universities, unions, they dont control what the courts do or what other sovereign nations do, and they do not control what we do as individuals and groups around the world. For me, this was very inspiring, this section of the book because you do layout for us that we have a lot of spaces in which we dont just have to say no but where we are building up these alternatives, whether its on a very small level the way you live your life or on a global level of how we can reignite some of the global alliances that weve had in the past after trump said no to the paris agenda and how the World Community came together to say we are moving ahead anyway. Can you talk a little bit about those spaces that trump does not control. Specifically, because what trump and his administration are doing is so dangerous with what they control, the onus on us to do more in all of these spaces is all the greater. I was thinking about this when i was speaking at harvard, giving a lecture. Early on in the administration, there was an absolutely ferocious fight at harvard over fossil fuel divestment. They have one of the strongest divestment movements in the country. Its really important for the fossil fuel movement because harvard is so iconic and if they were to make the decision it would help other schools and other institutions to also make a similar decision. Talking to some of the activists, i realized the argument during the obama years was we dont really think its the most effective way to fight crime and change. We think its more effective to have policy. There was a credible possibility that the Obama Administration would introduce policy that will be quite strong. They introduced the clean power lan plan which wasnt Strong Enough and of course now its being undone by trump but theres no credible prospect at this moment of a real carbon tax, for instance, that argument is gone and anywhere where we do have power we have to use it. During the d c when Michelle Obama said when they go low we go high, i think that was probably the best line of the convention. She was talking about tone and not wanting to join trump and his gang in the gutter of attacks. I think we should adopt that similar approach as it relates to policy and action as they lower the bar and go rogue, we have to raise the bar where we have power. An example of this was the mayor of pittsburgh after trump announced withdraw from the paris climate agreement. The next day you have the mayor of pittsburgh stepping up saying pittsburgh voted for hillary and im gonna get the city to one 100 Renewable Energy by 2035 which is the most ambitious target in the country. I think portland is the only other city that adopted a target that ambitious. Thats an example of what i mean of people using the power they have to advance a powerful progressive vision. I think were seeing something similar in california. Moving one step closer to single payer precisely because of what congress and trump are doing in healthcare is so dangerous. I think we may well be in a position to advance something similar with free trade. That will be an opening for workers movements and environmentalists and never be concerned about our economy to come forward and say no, this is how you write a fair trade agreement, this is what the quake, and really say what we think it would look like. When we were fighting these deals back in the day, we were pretty good at saying no but we werent as good at saying yes. As we are winding down, i just want to thank you for saying now the lines are blurred and we all have to be activists and two, giving us this beautiful way of looking at the trump agenda, not as something that is so enormous that we dont want to get out of bed in the morning because we dont even want to think about it, but as a challenge to us that we have to take extremely seriousl seriously, but that gives us a lot of spaces to work and whole new communities to work with. I think as you go forward on your book to her, getting more people excited about being part of the solution and showing the enormous potential , we as a community and a nation will be much better at articulating the yes that we want to live in so thank you so much for the work, the book, no is not enough, resisting trumps politics and winning the world we need. Thank you so much. Thank you. Heres a look at some authors recently featured. Brian merchant retrace the creation and development of the iphone. Temple University Professor keith davis looked at gender identity and others reported on how low and moderate income families manage money. Later they will report on how smear tactics are used to influence public opinion. Rosa delauro will discuss her work on social programs. This weekend on after words, naomi klein provides her analysis of the Trump Presidency and what it means for american politics. I think foreign governments are deciding to stay at Times Properties to hopefully get into his good graces, but there are other things to look at as well including the fact that the Chinese Government had been granting a wave of trademarks to trump and his uncle to sell their products in china. What im most disturbed by is something i dont think has gotten nearly enough Media Attention urges that the Chinese Government has detained labor monitors who were investigating conditions in one of ivankas factories. That would be a very tangible benefit. Its not that these governments are being directed to do this by trump, its that they see he has not divested and they believe these are favors they can do to get themselves into the good graces of a president who is very concerned about his personal and Family Wealth. After words airs every weekend and can be found on our website. [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] good afternoon. I am the senior fellow at the Hoover Institution and a senior fellow and codirector at the center for International Security cooperation here at stanford. We are delighted that both institutions have come together to cohost this book event with Graham Allison and neil ferguson