Host it is so great to be here with your heath davis i am excited about the book and we could start with the biggest question of Paul Mitchell is why were you compelled to write this book . That is titled does gender matter . I am happy to be here but i was inspired to write this book by a strange policy that we have in the city of philadelphia the Transportation Authority said everybody has to have a gender marker on their passport male or female on the past this treatise lot of discrimination and in particular one transgendered bowman who was a friend of mine and an activist for rights in philadelphia brought a lawsuit against the of the company for gender identity discrimination because when she offered her past she was turned away and they said you cannot use this because in my opinion you are not a real woman so then she brought back the past with the sticker and the same thing happened you are not a real me and. Me and. So in that case it is pretty clear there is no legitimate reason to have the Sexual Identity mark to have a pass to get on the bus and in the city of philadelphia this wusses grassroots activism to get these removed and eventually the city got rid of them but never ignited it had discriminated against charlotte the nor anybody else based on gender identity. But if it is ridiculous in this instance but then what about others like our drivers license or passports or births to to the kids . Are they necessary . To make that was very compelling that you open the book with this story and you think we understand oftentimes these issues three dont even think about but everyday just simply trying to get to work she had to walk onto a bus and be ready to defend herself and potentially be humiliated and to talk about the shaming and the humiliation. But i think is so important is what are sex markers . And you also talk very distinctly in this book about sex identity verses gender identity so can you go into that a little bit better . Guest absolutely. It is important to drive a distinction between sex and gender identity because there is a pervasive traditional sexism that means stereotypes of how women should look or act but when we talk about trans gender discrimination it does relieve up predicates of those stereotypes so not so much about as a man or a woman but do you get to belong to a category of man or woman in the first place . Saving that is the important distinction to draw that transgendered people experience Something Else but a sex identity discrimination is belonging to the category of self. So you put forward in the book we should eliminate those categories. And a lot of different places . From the birth certificates to college or professional level sports or everything in between. I would love to hear from you as that is very forsberg thinking and having grown up with boito ways and girls tories in the mass toy stores we are segregated from the moment we come out getting the blue of bed or the pink of pip. Now there are cakes now revealing as a society. So there are two questions do you think it is getting worse . But there is of a juxtaposition of activists who were trying to break down the stereotypes or how weve table each other and we are restricting people is it getting worse at warm level or better add another . Or is it even possible . Those are Great Questions one of the things is distinguish we should always ask the question does gender matter . If so then how or why . So there is a lot of assumptions built into those it is one thing to invoke that with the policy like the bus company that was the administrative policy that the company adopted it was impossible to administration in a logical way because every time we go to that idea who counts there was subjectivity and then to make snap decisions but it is probably the best they may be getting a little worse with the Broader Society but the social importance of male or female with the advent of Ultrasound Technology with the big revealed before you come into the world if you have a penis or regina or those gender reveal cakes so technology but at the same time it is Getting Better to break down the concept of gender so having that gender fluid identity is not anything that faces them but there is a lot of change happening generational a. Would we were growing up you have lagos legos but now it is paying for blue depending on your gender so now that Technology Point is fascinating to link those gender reveal cakes to the technology at hand but moving further use state your argument at the beginning of the book why was this book so important to write . But the question is something that i take from antidiscrimination and blossom if you have a Public Policy you have to have an a rational basis for it not just where a green shirt on tuesday but then there is a higher standard. Guest folks that because historically we have a history of racism to be treated it a more serious way so for example, when race or sex was a vote was the basis for discrimination so we have to have a higher standard. So to take that in a much more straightforward way so does gender matter in this venue that i go to the different case studies asking the question not assuming everybody even understands what we talk about invoking sex or gender that is the missing part of that equation. What are some of the things that you learn your discovered . Because you systematically go through documents and i am looking forward to get a to that back and discussion then sports of women only or mail only colleges or high school so was there any surprising findings . It was a process to research the different venues with the very basic question because the media the the question takes you to the our rationale for the policy so each of these places that is what i was investigating so when we talk about the sex workers on government issued an identification were talking about fried protection and the government has a legitimate interest to protect personal Identity Fraud unaudited to reason for sex Identity Fraud which is the only reason you would have those markers on a passport. In that case there are much better ways to keep track of our personal identity especially if you know, that transgendered experience that sex is a changeable characteristics was not a reliable way to keep track of who we are and i also point out just because the majority of people continue to identify with what they were assigned at birth and enjoying the experience does not make it we should trample the rights of the minority and then talk about keeping track of personal identity it is to the governments advantage to use better ways to track us. Similar to what you said earlier that Technology Leads the way to identify early sex it could actually remove now that we have fingerprinting horror scanning technology it could remove the need for the sex workers that could help more than it could hurt. Yes. I am not an expert on that technology but talking to some people who are, definitely we will be moving toward more digital identification weller the sex workers will be completely irrelevant but it is interesting to stop and consider that philadelphia had a policy in place 1981 through 2013 causing all sorts all sorts of problems for those that were gender nonconforming or a woman who has a short haircut that could trigger that form of discrimination. But it was so long and so ridiculous to go to the power and the strength of that bureaucratic form and to check a box or the computer screen so the social customs are still very much with us. On the long island rail road they still do that than they will check my monthly pass. I always thought that was odd but unwinding all of that it is interesting because i am glad our unwinding mechanism is education intermediate to introduce people who may be gender nonconforming and i thought that was a compelling part of your book with the case studies seven like to move to the bathroom conversation which could be the entire conversation of the interview there was the big media conversation and has spent over the past year or so and has cut into National Attention for girl but starting with the story that i thought was really compelling in your book that took place in new york city in the west village which is the heart for that lgbt is a community. This is the story of an africanamerican in self identified lesbian who did not identify as trans gender but the story goes a restaurant she was in the womens restroom somebody had reported her to a manager to say there is a man in the womens bathroom. A bouncer barchen bang down the door and says you have to get out you are a man but the interesting part of the story is she offers to show her identification with her sex marker as female because the back story is it happened all the time to her as a masculine presenting women associate was already primed for that sova get my identification so the bouncer literally said it is not here or there dont want to look at it does not matter get out. So she brought a lawsuit from the transgendered Legal Defense fund checkup the case but she did not identify as transgendered to show this encompasses a wider range of people. They settled outofcourt the restaurant agreed to change some of the policies we will not enforce its but the other thing that they did was say they would adopt a general day gender neutral dress code policy. So you mentioned you transition that the age of 38 so from your personal perspective when it comes to a the bathroom issue, has that been a challenge for you in your revised preor post transition . Yes. I also shared in the book a little bit and it is important it was a constant issue from the very young age. Constantly told you are in the wrong bathroom especially as an older person was very strange to wrasse somebody or theyre just washing their hands that they are just assuming, i dont know. You see in the book the question is who are you verses what are you is the distinction. It is legitimate but sometimes dealing with identification documents it is legitimate to ask who are you but deaf but otherwise what are you is a rude way to address somebody to objectify them to take away their humanity to take away the Human Element so i describe that of encounters and classification policies but with that pattern scenario that this happened to her so often she had a whole script at the ready and part of that was to show her state identification but the fact that wasnt even taking into consideration and shows the power the individual has when enforcing the policy he should have looked at the identification to say youre in the right place and it is not a problem but they did not even look at it and make that decision so that is the essence of trans gender discrimination that somebody else has the authority to tell us if we can exercise our civilrights about accessing Public Restrooms. That is powerful the way that you put it by also found interesting that i would love you to do share but talk about potty parity to get that baseline how to understand were in this situation in the first place. Back in the 1990s there were lawsuits those potty parity cases it wasnt transgendered issues but traditional forms of sexism of the inequality between men and women in Public Restrooms. Everybody can see there are long turbines for womens restrooms and almost as a public venue so the challenge was this violates the principle of separate but equal but i point out some of those cases were successful some of the remedies were to give women as many stalls as your nose and where this falls in the mens room but is still was not complete the will we talk about is the time that women and girls have to access so that was an issue of civil rights as well. This popped up in the 90s some of them were settled out of court my point is the remedy did not fix the problem you cannot have complete equality with sex segregated restaurants and will always be an equal and that falls on women and girls. So do you propose when it comes to restrooms separate is not equal and it goes back to the social constraints . Yes. And there is a real opportunity for coalition bending building. So a new term. Gave new culture somebody who was not transgendered does not identify as transgendered but as the sex designation of legitimate birth. There is an opportunity not just the gender nonconforming people but also because they can never be truly equal. So over the past yearandahalf it has become a National Conversation around legislation proposed in North Carolina that was passed house bill number two a which means ultimately that you need to use the restroom they were born with. So there has been the idea will you check ids at the door but it goes back to the assumptions made visually somebody is given that Authority Based on their interpretation of male and female. Suss to get to this why you think this is now happening so much and part of a National Dialogue and conversation . How do we overcome this . That think your book talks about it. Some people have talked about it like the new culture war because with Time Magazine said it is the new civil rights issue it isnt a new issue but that has come on to the public radar screen because with the bathroom issue in particular it is the culture war issue because of the one hand those who pass the bathroom bills are dismissing the issue for the transgendered people that this is stupid but the imposes of draconian measure that are completely nonsensical so people dont carry their birth certificate around and then you would have to have a bathroom bouncer. [laughter] nobody wants that that is not what the North Carolina legislature was implying but they were trying to say it is objective the true but ironically in every state including North Carolina transgendered people can choose their gender marker on their birth certificates so logically that does not even accomplish that exclusion that the state was trying to accomplish because of that is a document with the markers are not stable then why do they try to put that in their . It is very strange. I have told people often it is a solution looking for a problem but in this society we have been going to the of our restaurant our entire life with transgendered people so it is a very strange place but tested in bat for civil rights and to talk about this in your book so it goes to the humanity of the people and above for you to talk about that and baby take us back to when women did not have their restrooms or the Civilrights Movement today and to see that bathroom as a battleground to dehumanize people. You hit on that perfectly so in order to be in the public sphere at all people the access to restaurants and that is the way it is. When you dont have access you cannot be in public at all so it is an effective way to exclude somebody from the workplace or schools in terms of africanamericans and also for women. And how do we go about theres one thing from physically doing it. And then theres rewiring culture around that, and i guess maybe i can think of some great examples where its just a bathroom. [laughter] and we have them at work. There are gender neutral bathrooms. But im just wondering on one thing there are many others out there from Football Games to schools and how do we with rethink about this, and how do we unwind this . Uhhuh. Yeah. Because as you remember talking about earlier there was such historical social momentum cooping had this practice in place even if it doesnt Serve Service well. I think when it comes what id like to see happen is for us to design and build Public Restrooms very differently than we do how, and we have some really good examples of this in philly and also in manhattan where the space issue but a lot of restaurants have gender neutral bathroom where is they have a series of individual toilet stall floor to ceiling partition so you give people their privacy which i think is legitimate expectation to have. Then theres a common area in the middle of things and people do what they need to do and come and wash their hands an go back to the, you know, enjoying their meal, whatever. And that has not raised it a lot of hack had l like people havent really complained about that. Because number one, they dont even realize whats happening in a sense because they have their privacy it doesnt seem like a big deal. That would be like my ultimate dream would be for us, you know, there are architects who are at this you know to propose it. Unfortunately we keep on building barrels the same way according to building codes and stuff like that. So some of those need to change as well. I think thats the ultimate goal to get an architectural solution. Thats amazing. I think as we see it roll out and as we are all encountingering ive been to restaurants, bars and it is not a big deal. Meal still there is amazing thing so id love to know also so if we do that, where do you see this road going . This past legislative session weve seen a number of these bathroom bills coming up had. The conversation came up again during that time period. Do you think that the Public Education has been there . Do you think we need to increase Public Education . Yeah. I do think we need to increase the Public Education around this issue, and the one point that conservatives keep coming back to is this thing that has never happened that transgender woman would go into a womens public restroom and sexually assault a girl or woman had many that venue, and we dont have any evidence that that is even happened. That is a total misunderstanding about Transgender Identity and as you say you know, often some dont know that were sharing restroom with someone and nobody gives me a sec look in a mens bathroom because im gender conforming and nobody seems to care. So i think that the education around that issue the way that women restroom are built right now are is not a safe place. You know, so women are have been assaulted and do get assaulted in that venue my own feeling is a lot of times that happens because somebody who wants to commit such a crime know it is that likely only are going to be women in this venue and biment in a way that is secluded so i think, you know, what we talked about earlier with jeanee series of toilet stall and sinks also as a benefit of making it a more safe environment because then people are circulating in and out and it is yeah. So i i think it is the way that we should go. Lets switch gears a little bit. I must say that share that i went to all Womens College, and feel that i benefited greatly from that experience. And you talk about sex segregated schooling, and id love to hear your five on that. Your argument in the book and how you think we should march forward. sure. So and just, you know, im a big fan also of private Women Colleges they served a important historical function and still do today for all sorts of reasons. I started to look into the challenges that these schools were encountering specifically from transgender women who wanted to apply and be accepted at a Womens College but also people who had been admitted as female and had transition to male during their time there. So those two things were happening. Really pushing mostly the elite colleges because of the most at stake there i think in terms of applications. To push them to really to clarify what they meant by women. You know, so it goes back to this question whenever you have a poles that is about sex classification you cant just assume that Everybody Knows what that is. In past we sort of made those assumption but that experience is pushing that, and so whats happened in a lot of schools is that theyve adjusted their policies to say, you know, maybe Something Like that transwomen are invited to apply as well. But mount hole owe which had i talk about in the book is interesting because that i gone furthest of Women Colleges in materials of maintaining that it is Women College, the only group that cannot apply to the mount holio is gender men who identify male at the time of application. So again, somebody who was designated as male at first and who at the time of the application identifies as male. And when i thought about this in some sense it makes sense that you have to have some form of inclusion at a Women College but i dont think that is true. I think that you could it shall maintain the goals about gender, equity, female leadership, some of the feminist aspiration and goal, and also theres a benefit i think for bringing especially that category into that environment. And having them be very aware of those goals and its different structure so those are some of my thoughts about that. I introduced the term, i think now we talk about historically black in the university that i think we should maybe adopt something similar and talk about historically Womens Colleges. And instead of because now hbcus cant discriminate they cant exclude you because of your race. Right. So i think maybe we should november in a similar direction with gender. Interesting how its all interconnected race, gender, identity, you talk about race markers which i wasnt aware of. And i found that fascinating as well to learn about race markers. You have a specific point of view on them, though. And i would love for you to share what what you shared in the book on what are race marks and your five on them. Yes. I think youre talking about sort of like a race marker on birth certificate stuff like that. Similar to sex markers, and how theyre used they were used to identify people of color. Right. Right. And then how they were removed and whether or not that was the right thing. Flrve yeah so they were removed because of civil rights agitation. Goes back to historically when you have had race invoked in a policy it is for nefarious reason, and so theres a push to get them off of our license, drivers licenses used to have them. Birth certificates still to some it depends kind of where youre born what the pots policies are. But now theres also been a movement to say race markers become on drivers licenses in order toll deal request issues of racial profiling by parking e police. It raises because it raises this conundrum if you have any kind of policy whether its affirmative action or just dealing with race arism or sexism. You have to have some data, you have to know sort of about parties and that encounter if it is a Police Officer and civilian. Though some people have pushed to say should put them back on drivers license to have the data to show more accurately you know who is getting pulled over more frequently. Who is being mistreated by the police. Need to be on the actual license or does it need to be faculty into the reporting system . Yeah. Yeah. An interesting perspective because then you know, these identifiers are used both in a positive way or can be or in a negative way. Exactly. Glad you brought that up a question about am i being asked to selfidentify racially or with respect to my gender or really talking about how other people see me . You know, how other people see me is really the sort of the crux of discrimination doesnt, you know, doesnt it is irrelevant if, you know, i for example am biracial and half black and half white. I identify with that but seen in a lot of situations either as somebody who is just black or somebody who is latino and im treated according to that. You know, so thats another thing that all of our policies should really stipulate. You know . When we fill out census are we being asked to think about, you know, who am i really, and how do i think about myself. Or o is it more political about, you know, keeping track of the data around discrimination. Thats an interesting point about census in the Current Administration there was a site. Civil rights fight to have people identified on the 2020 census. And in a very short period of time it now has been removed for from that census so i would love your view point on that identifier and what does the census serve . Is it important to be on the census and count it . And and when you you you know, you do count by race and by male, female. Should those things be e removed or are those things important . Yeah. Its, you know every, i teach courses on antidescrings law and Public Policy, and also africanamerican political thought, and i often start the semester by doing a census exercise with my students where we look at the fact that the categories, categories in particular have changed every census and every ten years weve had different, you know, something tells going on. Which tells us that that is not like a stable thing in our society its social constructed and influx. When it comes to gender and also sexual orientation, i think its i think its important to ask on the census to get the data. You know, so using gender should it bsh there should be a third gender on on or should it be an open fill in the blank . How do you do that . Yeah. I think it is upon the federal government here to really to lay out why theyre asking these questions. In the first place to give some guidance to people when theyre filling out forms. An excellent opportunity and i talk about it to get relevant Public Health data because we havent talked about the medical Health Care Part of this issue. But really what doctors and Public Health people are concerned about is provision of Good Health Care to individual people. And in the in that setting, you know, transidentitying can mean Different Things and if youre really wanting to know if somebody has ovaries or prostate you should ask specific questions. You know, so i think the census is an opportunity in my view because we do it every ten years, and so question get sort of updated information if the government is interested in that. You know . Then question of to think together as a society about what are the good purposes for asking about gender and what are nefarious purposes and how do we want to guide people when theyre filling out census or even at the dintist office you know when were asking them to check a box. Why . It is such an it is really the premise of your book which is why are you doing in . Why are you being, and now im im so since reading your book so aware of it. And which is interesting because california is talking about a third gender on the drivers license. And there are some india recognizes third gender. And so i do going back be to our earlier conversation where there is movement and there is acknowledgement that we we dont all fit in buckets. And that theres more fluidity to people and their identities and their sexual identities their gender or identities. Im curious, do you think that based on what youre writing about is that, is that helpful having california recognize the third gender or does that actually then say well now theres even another box . Versus get rid of the boxes . Uhhuh. I want to get rid of a box. [laughter] i think, be done with them. Get rid of them. They dont you know california or any other state doesnt need to have them on the drivers license. I dont even think we should have to have them on our birth certificates although back to the Public Health issue, i think that the government can and probably should keep track of people who are, you know, designate as male or female at birth. If you keep track of that aggregate data without facultying that information on our specific birth certificate. About thats what i would advocate for. But yeah in oregon it is also thinking about this as well likely going to pass this on their drivers license to have a third designation. Problems with that not everybody who is transgender thes to be in a third category. It, you know, it kind of opens up this big question that we havent really talked about had had is really just a real variety under this umbrella term of transgender. Lets get into that bringing up inner sex and love to give you a deaf nation and you have statistics in the book around people who are born intersex and i think that kind of broadens with conversation. Uhuh had you. Yeah. Absolutely. So it is a term that we use to describe people who are born with a combination of e sex characters in term of reare productive organ, body, hormone chromosomes so anything that is not diatic. So now were talking about those identities and sometimes those correspond with transidentities and sometimes they dont. But under that umbrella of transgender as a term you have people who are gender conforming. You know, female to male or male to female, identify and then there are people who are nonbuy their who identify as both male and female or neither. And so some of those been interesting lawsuit where is people have fought for legal recognition of a nonbinary classify kig and thats really driven california and oregon, and you know, in oregon a situation it was somebody who was is nonbinary who brought a lawsuit and estate of oregon is responding to that. The person won this lawsuit. Oh, great. Well it is interesting because glad we released some data on the next generation so millennials and and we didnt release data because we havent had a second to do it. But it talks about how much more these kids today identify on this binary and dont want to be checking box so i think at a level your are book and the questions that you bring up in the argument that you bring up, and well get into a little bit of the work sheets because ting theyre really important. This next generation is is there in a lot of ways. I think its it be 40 . Not male or female so a norm that you have to be one or o the either and fascinating and with an article when we release it it was actually a cover story on Time Magazine because its so its a big population to be looking at the world so differently. Absolutely. So also i think whats interesting about intersex and then it is left to parents or i should say the parents have been given this power to decide someones sex identity or at that young, young age within could you talk a little like within a certain number of month it is they and thats seems right. And in discussion and being guided by doctors too. So this is in a medical setting. And a big push for intersex civil rights have been around you know, not having these surgeries performed on infant without their consent. You know. Surgeries are basically deciding if theyre a boy or a girl. To make them die diatic thought historically that it is preventing pain and suffering for this person later on in life with so many examples of people who were born intersex and had had surgeries forced upon them who had, you know difficults and pain and anguish decision made for them rather than at a different age that they could decide for themselves. And also as going back to the issue that we were just talking about why do they have to choose in the first place . You know, if you took the box off the birth certificate it wouldnt even be a looming question necessarily. So just unwinding some of that. Absolutely. It is so black or white. Uhhuh right now. Yeah. And why at that moment is it so important bureaucratically to settle this issue when we know that in our Society People some people feel like gender fluid or this might change for them at spoimght in their lives. So why do we feel so compelled to make that decision. Yeah. So we dont have much time but i do i want to get i think that you one of the brilliant things many brilliant things about your book. One of the brilliant things is that you actually give the tool to people to start to really think about this. And incorporate it into their, their work life situation. So for organizations you lay out a work sheet do you talk a little bit about that. And why its so important that you you made that a part of this book. Yeah, thank you for asking about that. So i, you know, i do some luke consulting work with like businesses and organizations helping them usually cools to me because they want to be transinclusive but theyre not sure exactly what to do. So i basically the argument from the book is in the work sheets as well. So i have them do something called a gender audit where either they think through it on their own or i think through it with them all of the place where is they invoke gender or sex in their administrative policy so interesting exercise because it pops up in strange places. And then asking that question, on the work sheet, you know if we take this policy address code about what men and women can wear, is it mess to invoke jepgder here whats the legitimate goal that youre trying to reach here . Maybe you know having professional some range of professional dress is a legitimate thing for a Investment Bank to stipulate. But you dont actually and that example you dont have to invoke gender but give a range of clothing example and talk about professionalism and get to it a different way. So getting silting down with people to say like, okay should we get rid of that policy. You know what would happen if we did that . And if were going to keep it, can we adjust it we need to define how were talking about jengd gender or sex and be transparent about that. So because wrapping up, i think that the question of gender matter most often is doesnt but theres sometime when is it does and when it does i think that its incumbent on organization of business to really define the definition that theyre using and why. What are some of those examples of when does gender matter . I think in issues in affirmative action and seeking to remediate some historic disadvantage or gender equity you know like in an academic department. You know university or student body to have certain goals that are based on gender equity then you need accounting of men and women, but then when you do that you need to then ask the question what definition am i using but assuming that i know based on my own visual you know, understanding of the people around me if im asking it on the form. Am i asking person about their selfidentity or how other people see them . So i think some places have done this. You know, where theyve explain when does theyve asked about sex. The Fenway Health center . Boston does a great job of this and i include their intake form. What does it say on intake form that you think id love to hear for people to hear what a good example sounds like. Yeah. Yeah a really good example where they are specifically they stay say that for insurance purposes, they have to know your legal fix. And that is the sex that is on your birth certificate. And then they go on to say you know but were interested in how you selfidentify. So heres some place where you can tell us if you want something you know about your own gender identity, and same thing with names. So if theres legal name and havent been able to change it for whatever reason what diewpght to be called when i, you know, when we interact with with you. Which is so bril yajt and needed i think because it goes to the heart. It gets to the heart of what providing good medical care is all about which is taking care of that individual patient. Ed to that you have to have respect, trust there, and lack of that is what trips up a lot of transpeople when they go into those settings. Right. I think thats a Perfect Place to end too at the heart of that is humanity. Right . And treating people luke humans, and i think ultimately thats what youre talking about here is giving people their humanity back and not shaming them. And giving us a road map on how to do that. So thank you for your book, and your are time and the thoughtfulness behind it. And silting down with me. I appreciate it. This has been great i appreciate it. Thank you. Live sunday at noon eastern author, journalist and history professor herb boifd is our guest on booktv indepght. Often draw parallels between detroit and new york in the book. 1863 draft riot a nice contrast, nice comparison between tbhafs happening in new york and in detroit. Almost for the same reason ares you know you talk about the black and Irish Community at each others throats nerms of jobs and housing so if you go down to the 1943 well one in harlem in 1943 you go down to 68, 57 same kind of thing. Almost for the same conditions that created that. Biography and latest black detroit a peoples history of selfdetermination. The black lawyers, the black doctors, the black laborers could all live right next to it each other. And benefit, you know, sort of the what was going on at that time and talk about some benefits of segregation. You know, but certainly that would be one, the opportunity to have contact, you know, request people of another class. And of course thats beginning, you know, the demelding of the black middleclass in detroit. Join our live threeour conversation with mr. Boyd with your calls, emails, tweets, and facebook questions. Live sunday at noon eastern on booktv its inindepth on cspan2. Good afternoon everyone. Im carolyn a great pleasure for me and my cohost today bill of the brookings institution, to welcome all of the you and our