There is a musician very much involved them a good living as a computer programmer. Some of the most shoplifted and lived in squats. So theres all sorts of different people. Unfortunately, weve run out of time. 20 thank you for questions. Human to touch on many areas i hope we would have more time to explore and theres so much more in the book. Masha gessen will be signing outside. Id like to ask all of you to think about supporting the program that brings these kinds of writers to los angeles. Donations of course i am sure if you talk to luis outside, you can find out a way to handle that. Look forward to Masha Gessens new work. Shes riding on the boston massacre. When do you expect [inaudible] you can look forward to that. 20 thank you so much for coming to los angeles. That [applause] [inaudible conversations] up next, after words, with guest host amity shlaes, author of the forgotten man. This week, Herbert Hoover asks burke, george nash in his latest, tree in a period in it, the Hoover Institution fellow refers to the missing link in the hoover memoirs. He provides 31st political for huckabee and the most historic conflict. This program is about an hour. Host hello. The book is the crusade years 19331955 Herbert Hoovers lost memoir of the new deal era and its aftermath. The editor is george nash, the most esteemed scholar of Herbert Hoover today. Herbert hoover served from 1929 to 33, which means he was the president who saw the worst years of the depression. The Great Depression was so bad that a lot of our modern hits arenas about assigning blame for it, figuring out whose fault the depression was. Many people blamed hoover and down the decades increasingly so. The 31st president of the United States was ranked 37 out of 43 in a recent u. S. News poll. The magazine wouldve hoover he was known as a poor communicator who fueled and exacerbated the depression. Not only those on the left, but also sometimes on the right, assign blame to herbert and we are here today to talk about that specifically. President hoovers own analysis, his own work, which blames other people as well including his successor, Franklin Roosevelt and his predecessor, calvin coolidge. We want to welcome you viewers to this revision. A frequent guest on this channel. Richard burr and smith introduced and interviewed him a few years ago for another book. We would give license to this controversial depression subject. We will break our hour into three parts. The first part is to remind ourselves to supervise. The second part is to talk about the production of this tremendous book and its many pages and much editing in detail. The third part will talk about why it matters, what about the Great Depression and today cspan viewers welcome. George, welcome. It really begins in college and youve written a whole book about that. Rated hoover go to college and how does it affect him . Guest yesterday was first of all born in 1874 in i o is the son of quakers, son of a blacksmith and he was orphaned before he was 10. What not to live at the. Never had more than a middleschool education really. And then applied for entrance into newly formed Stanford University in the summer of 1891 and got admission and was told to take additional tutoring the help of which he passed most of the entrance exams and was allowed to enter. He was probably literally the first at the Stanford University in the fall of 91, getting his dormitory room ahead of anyone else. That became, in a deep sense, his alma mater. Remember he is an orphan boy was trying to make in the world. He was only 17 when he entered college and he was rather shy. But he blossomed in college and became student body treasurer by the time he was out of college. Stanford meant so much to him that about 25 years or so after that, after world war i, hoover literally built his own home on the stanford campus and that is still there. Is the official residence of the president of the university. Host dr. Nash, what did he do with his education he got there . He said it mining engineering . Guest its official nature was geography and the adventures in engineering and not quickly became his career after you graduate in the class of 1985. After a year or two of the United States he got a break and was hired by a british mining Engineering Firm that was preeminent in the world at the time and he was sent as a very young man to australia and before he left australia at the age of 23 come he was always manager of one of the great gold mines of the estonian gold rush, since a while yet it was called. From there, he went to got married to a stanford woman who also was a geology major, possibly the first such woman in the United States to have been major. We cant be sure, but she was certain a pioneer in her own right. They went to china for a couple years and eventually hoover used the base during his mining engineering career, which took him out to world war i. He became very successful at it, traveled all over the world, lived in places like irma, china, australia and so forth and had a Great Success at the first career. Posters to stop a minute and think about this. Imagine you have a son or daughter and he goes to college and studies the thing the world needs most at that point, getting minerals out of the ground, a growing economy needs minerals, especially with the world islamic Gold Standard. Your child is the best educated in that area. He studied with masters at stanford and is also the most able. Some of us that the best paid young man of his generation. Certainly one of the most successful. He wasnt just any success. Youre quite right. He became the outstanding writing engineer this time who is recognized for that. He was earning in 1908 to 1914 money probably in excess of 100,000 a year, which is a lot of money in the preincome tax stays. But you know, he didnt want to stop there. By the time he was 40 he was probably a millionaire, immodest millionaire. Not a midas or rockefeller perhaps, but he wanted to do more with his life. Just making money isnt enough. Having done well, he wanted to do something more creative, perhaps give back in the chain of circumstances led to his second career as a humanitarian. Thats right. Professor nash has written about each stage of his early life. He moved first in wartime to getting americans back and then to a great rescue of the people of belgium and then to be also food administrator. At the beginning of american politics quiet when the First World War broke out in the month of his 40 earth day, he had these notions whos going to return to the United States and get into public life in some vague way, probably by buying a newspaper. He would become a newspaper owner. At any rate, circumstances turned his life in a different direction and as he pointed out, he first helped american tourist standard in europe get home and then was asked to organize what was thought to be a temporary emergency Relief Mission to help the distressed people of belgium who are just been overrun by the german army at the start of the war. They didnt have enough food. That turned into something without precedent in the history of humanity, feeding the entire occupied nation of several Million People, over 9 Million People of utah couple million in northern france. That made hoover an International Hero and american benevolence. The new world coming to hope the old in its tribulations. Hoover was doing this not by conducting war but dealing with the problem of forest a humanitarian. That made him an International Hero, an american here as well and he entered the Wilson Administration when we entered the war and became food administrator. Now hes kind of a world food released new field humanitarian relief, earned himself of the humanitarian that was the master of emergencies, at the end of the war, he went back on wilsons instructions to organize many countries receive orchestrated men for sales cheated and tens of millions of people were dependent on relief. At the time if the opportunity to form opinions about the revolutions going on in europe, whether west germany or russia. He had investments they are and so it happened with the russian revolution. Oeuvres in american traveled all over the world. Five times before world war i. He was a perceptive observer constantly comparing these other social systems in many which were feeling. There was great turmoil in the aftermath of world war i and the communist taken over russia, the bolshevik revolution in 1917 and hoover had basically pulled out of russian mining interests before the revolution, but he lost a fortune in the communist came in comiskey is the mines and general chaos ensued. He saw one of the great lesson teacher from that wartime in postwar experience, he saw what he regarded as the failure of commandandcontrol economies as we would say, he used the word socialism, bolshevism and so forth, especially in russia. He thought that its a great failure, but also as a great challenge philosophically to the american way of doing things. After his humanitarian episode probably resulted in his saving more lives than any person has ever lived. A remarkable achievement. After that he returned to the United States in 1919 and entered American Public life. Host thats right. We will move through the career to brief the reader so we can get to the controversy. He was such a success that both parties vied for his attraction and in the end he went republican. He was commerce secretary to president harding and president coolidge and didnt get along very well with president coolidge, jd . Guest initially they did, but became an increasingly tense relationship, partly for reasons of temperament. Partly hoover was much more aggressive in terms of wanting to build public work expenditures and so on and that grated against coolidge more fiscal conservatism. They were both party loyalists, so coolidge did endorse whoever ultimately and 28 and again when hoover ran for reelection. Its a complicated story. Host thats right. Hoover and president because he becomes within a year, the stock market crashes. Hoover is stuck with the albatross of a downturn and this is why theres so much emphasis on him, so much focus. What did hoover do in the depression. This first years as president to point out the highlights. Guest hoover does not believe in the philosophy of laissezfaire. He frequently disparage that in his writings even before he was president. By the historic standards of the presidency, he was an activist at the start. We try to do is pray and leaders of industry, labor, bankers and so forth and have a cooperative approach that would stimulate recovery through Greater Public works spending and the like. There were phases to let hoover did and he did send things that hes been criticized over by conservatives agreeing to the terrace, for example. There was a great terror, which he signed. Some of us have seen a scene in Ferris Buellers day off. That tariff was a burden on business at a time when business could afford it. Guest hoover was reluctant to sign it, but it had been pushed through when it was something his party stood for mr. A high tariffs to the Republican Party. He did hope that in the law as written, he could turn it to better damage by setting up the Tariff Commission that would presumably be more impartial and perhaps lower as well as raise tariffs. He had a kind of hope that scientifically things would work out better. That probably was a forlorn hope. Host what about wages . Guest he and other leaders had a few wages should remain where they were. The argument being this would create purchasing power for people who are struggling, perhaps the unemployed and so forth. That has been much debated. Host use like henry ford. Henry ford police pay high and buy back the car. Its not keynesianism because keynes wasnt done this way, but in idea very popular now. Consumer spending is good for the economy. Host who was a proto keynesian at that point in the sense he believed in stimulating the economy through countercyclical Public Expenditure on public works. He had a certain interest in that kind of thing. So that was part of his early policy. What happens to hoover is the depression deepens and hoover didnt know was that the Great Depression. They thought it was a typical cyclical event. The pattern did not hold and keep it, hoover found himself facing an creasing pressure from the left for greater and greater miniatures for greater intervention of the economy and he started to hold the line against that and became very much a fiscal conservative balance the budget can save the Gold Standard republican in the last year or two of his life. That perceived rigidity on his part is part of the reason he got attacked is supposedly not doing anything. He was quite activist first time in claiming policies that might not have been all that effect is. On the other hand coming was valiantly struggling against a total statist or such as he saw coming in the new deal. Host theres so many cliches about hoover, but theyre very different. Some people blamed him for being to act as some people blame him for doing nothing. Neither is entirely correct. This is why your writings about hoover are so important. There is a thirdgrade measure often discussed, which is they had an enormous tax increase in the later part of hoovers time and i often think, what do you think dr. Nash, that he was blamed wrongly because in todays terms to go into a high tax, the 60 range for the 25 or 24 that they had when he started seems like a lot, but he was operating in a Gold Standard world and in a Gold Standard world, washington must balance the budget. Even worse recession by taking the gold away. What do you think about this tax increase and whether hes wrongly blamed about it . Two things. There is a consensus among economists and politicians of both parties in the late 31 and early 32 that the federal deficit was so gigantic. 50 of federal expenditure. There had to be tax increases to balance the budget because as you say, balancing the budget was perceived to be critical to recovery. The question was do you have a National Sales tax . To a lot of miscellaneous taxes . The income tax . Some evidence what was called at the time the manufacturers sales tax, but eventually what happened was there was a lowbudget taxes. I have to point out the consensus of economic thinking at that time was that this was a wise idea. This is not something hoover hoisted on the congress. There was consent to print the battle was dussault richard do Something Else . Those are the parameters of the debate. Secondly, if you look at the results of the tax increase, even after rates were raised, 90 of the American People did not pay any income taxes still. I am inclined to think that weather was a good idea or bad idea, it was not the catastrophic explanatory idea for the late phase of the depression that some on the right would say. I tend to think a tax increase, while probably a mistake a understanding of policy was not nearly as much of a mistake are in the context you might say which wasted a house . Hoover has gotten too much criticism on that one. Host right. You think of this sort of an emotional arc. The stock market went down into the 40s from 381. The countries very angry. So who had they chosen to blame . Hoover is the most blamed president anyway. Quickly to move on a little bit before we talk about your work and the work of a biographer and editor, hoover is out in 33, kind of add on its rear end unfortunately, not included and goes back to california. You had said he invented the expresidency because he lived very long after the presidency, you know, how they record in fact until jimmy carter surpassed him. Can you briefly tell us what you did in that postpresidency. Guest youre exactly right. He was a pariah when he left office and hated as much as any person in american history. He did not go quietly away. He did go to california where he lived and stayed out of sight for about a year and a half so he gave roosevelt a chance. Hoover didnt want to just start rousting about roosevelt. At the very start wanted to permit a genuine change of administration. Hoover then became partly for reasons of temperament because of the desire to vindicate himself and partly because he saw great threat emerging, he became very active as an expresident. Its been said he invented the expresidency. Theodore roosevelt had some inclinations along that line. But hoover became the leader of the opposition. He wrote a book in 1934, which was his return to the same College Challenge to liberty. Perhaps well talk about that in a moment. He ended up becoming a vigorous critic of the new deal. He actually really wanted to be president again and theres considerable evidence in 1840 he was angling for, hoping for the republican nomination. He wanted to return and stay in public life. He became the intellectual leader of the Republican Party during the period from 1933 and the advent of eisenhowers administration to return the republicans to the presidency in 1953. In that period, hoover became a man of the right because even though he saw himself as the progressive republican and historic liberal, who is battling what he saw a much greater status from the left and that pushing towards the right. During these years hes writing books, doing all sorts of philanthropic work. People forget for almost 30 years he was chair of the boy scouts of America Movement and made that into a major philanthropy for urban voice. He did a huge amount of travel. Said he was an extraordinarily activist expresident and not i think is something people tend to forget. And this is a story that is not told, especially the part about the Republican Party. We sort of forgot it if we ever do it at he advisedly enough buckley for he was around when the three men was created, that he was a counselor to many conservatives out of power republicans. They did not take his advice. He gave it often, but he was there and not sort of father figure is underappreciated in modern history as well. He had a phrase regimentation. What did that mean for the new deal . What did he mean about that . Guest he argued it was a very a number of variants of what he called state control of the economy, statecontrolled society can socialism, communism, fascism. The beard which had some relationship he got to the others with regimentation. A massive, the economy would not be a free economy simply regulated by government as umpired come which hoover said was his approach, but would become a topdown managed economy with government dictating to business or even behaving as the leader of business organizing business. Hoover argue properly regulated and individualism was the proper alternative to what he called sheer socialism. Host suis thinking about communism in russia, which he deplores because he was not for recognition of communist russia. Hes also complaining about regimentation of the new deal, which is related to what we call about unfunded mandates, for example, too many rules. Too much state control. I want to move really briefly because its very important and interesting to you, your career and this sort of arts are working on hoover and what he does. Youre from new england. He went to amherst college, where hoover didnt go, but coolish it go. Your class class of 95 and youre also quite a coolidge scholar. What was your first book . Guest the conservative intellectual movement in america since 1945. That was my doctoral dissertation. Host this bouquet to mend its effect on many conservatives are free marketeers. Remember as a young writer at the wall street journal learning about it. Lately you did a revision of a. What did you say back then and what changed . Guest i kept the initial book imprint of the history of the conservative rise of the conservative intellectuals after world war ii and more recently a 10 book of writings called reappraising the right and which i bring up to date the more current happenings. But do not come i worked as historian and biographer several volumes produced on the life of Herbert Hoover. It was not something i expect it to do way back after getting my dissertation completed and looking for a job on the academic job market. It was commissioned to write a biography of hoover. I thought it made sense because hoover as he mentioned was a friend to patronizing saintly figure for many of those embattled and beleaguered conservatives in the new deal. It made sense to me to transition to hoover. Host and battled and beleaguered us how many feel today. One of the interesting things you have said, george is g, it is not necessarily as bad as it was in the 70s. Not least there some conservative magazines for those who dont see hope in the political process. Guest two points to make there. In the hoover. And even into the 70s, there was a developing conservative president s and william f. Buckley junior with a major figure in that conservative president s. But in 1960, with all the conservative intellectuals in the United States into one room of modest size. Now we have been much more elaborate infrastructure and apparatus of conservatism in its many formulations. So jay much richer. For a conservative to live in because the movement has grown and matured. But there was a time when it was very much a lonely occupation back in those areas and hoover in that era was kind of a figure of rectitude. Heres a man defeated that made its way back in the sky in the fight. Host the figure of consolation, very important. I want to ask you briefly to say what did he do with the Hoover Institution before we come to the break . Guest Herbert Hoover founded today what is called the Hoover Institution on war revolution and peace. It started world war i as he began to collect documentation relating to the war, particularly as the relief work and mixing a commission. He wanted to find and save for future historians tremendous amounts of material that might otherwise be lost or overlooked that would document the immense human tragedy. So is started as a war collection and archive and has grown over the years to a much broader institution with a think tank characteristic as well. Host a fabulous archive of soviet material especially. The World Premiere archive im not. Guest i believe so. The stories told when he was expelled from the soviet union, he ended up at the Hoover Institution doing research for later writings and had record there that the embassy could not have access to or would not have been in the soviet union. Host youve written and hoover said it might be the institution with this library his greatest accomplishment, which is very interesting. Just say a few words about that while closer break. Guest he said that in 1959 at the end of this phenomenal career in which he was 50 years in the public eye. For him to say that i thought was a remarkable statement. Heatsink illustrated his great concern that history be understood in the lessons of history be assimilated by people and that this great archive he found it could make a singular contribution to better understanding of the world of revolution, the root of communist in the national the National Socialist on the so one is tremendous a tumultuous in bloody 20th century and here he was collecting from all over a fascinating story the documentation for future historians could delve into and he thought maybe that was his greatest contribution to america. Host from Robert Conquest of apple valley, recent old country and soviet scholars have used the archive in the Hoover Institution is certainly one of the premier think tanks in america. We will come back very shortly after our break. Host we are back with dr. George nash, the premier scholar of Herbert Hoover. We are going to spend a little time not talking about the job of hoover biography. I wanted to mention some of the names of the people we built our work on because theres a lot of hoover work. Many other hoover biographers. Joan hoff wilson, forgot progressive vote and perfect visionary. Eugene lyon wrote a biography long time ago. The luxemburg wrote a short book in the Arthur Schlesinger series, glen johnstone. A wonderful scholar recently passed. David werner. Robert byrd wrote about president and did some interesting work on hoover. The fishing president about hoover and fishing, fly fisherman. Uncommon in it i know youve interviewed with him before. For margaret hoover, who recently wrote a book not about hoover directly, but his ideas in american individualism. Is there anyone to add . Guest many have written monographs that we probably wouldnt have time to list, but these are very Eminent Group of people. I think i knew all of them and know all of them except for mr. Lyons who passed away many years ago. One of the things that have happened in this generation is a hoover scholarship has taken off. Partly because his papers were open in 1866. Up to that point, people had to rely in newspaper articles and so forth and now they got to see the hoover story from the inside. Theres been kind of a boom if you will and hoover scholarship and maybe more detachment about him this time is past and some of the emotions of his area have faded. So im happy to be in the company of those scholars and many of us have spent time at the hoover to touche and in the hoover president ial library in iowa. Host thats right. What is the president ial library . What is the Hoover Institution . Guest the Hoover Institution was founded by Herbert Hoover at Stanford University, his alma mater effectively in 1919. It exists within the framework of Stanford University. Host i want to stop and say that dr. Nash is wearing the Hoover Institution tide. So that is the tower and is quite beautiful. Were all very proud of the Hoover Institution. Guest its a wonderful place indeed. 285 feet and the stanford landscape. A system of president ial libraries in the United States in this largely by the national archives. One of those in the system is the Herbert Hoover president ial library, which is at his birthplace in westbridge island. That was my base of operations for many years working on several volumes about mr. Hoover. Ive also spent many, many months. Every minute ive enjoyed because if you are hoover vacuum up having to draw upon the archival resources of both places. That gives you a little bit of phrack ground to the context i work as an independent scholar robert in places and elsewhere over the years. Host viewers who might end up in westbridge will want to know that theres some other paper there, including papers of the wilder family. Laura ingalls wilder, about the writing of the famous houseboat. Thats important to a lot of americans, too. How did rose wilder lane, the daughter of laura end up with Herbert Hoover . Guest well, the papers went to a man named roger mcbride, we think was a libertarian candidate for president at one point or at least as an active libertarian and he to the library in iowa, said that 70 papers end up in the hoover president ial library to mr. Gregg donation as they understand it. She actually wrote one of the first two Campaign Biographies of Herbert Hoover way back in 1920. It is pretty good. She went around and interviewed people. I dont think he cared for the book entirely. He thought maybe she was glamorizing him too much. Host this is very exciting and gives you a feel for how friendly he was and for whom he was a figure. People we never wouldve imagined. Here is your book. Its not your first, perhaps your or seventh relating to hoover. Hoover wrote so much after the president reappeared where does this fit in and what does it add . Guest this book just published his previously unknown to exist in all my years of study i had never known. So it was part of a set of memoirs. He started to write in 1840 after Wendell Wilkie got the nomination for president and hoover realized that was his last chance, so he set his life seeking a new turn and started putting his Immense Energy into returning to six volumes of memoirs. Four of them published in his lifetime. Ferry to last, one of which historians knew about because tarver had referred to it in other places, but had not yet seen. After hoover died in 1964, the magnum lopez that he and his staff used for the enormous book about world war ii and its aftermath and the great errors hit that roosevelt had made. Magnum opus, which was good and i have ultimately the title freedom betrayed was put in storage by his heirs after he died in 1964. So far as i can determine, the people who made the decision or long deceased, derek. It would be possibly likely to cause an unseemly controversy and reopen old political values if the manuscript were published just after his state funeral. His elder statesman at that point in his life. Hes 90 years old when he died. You turn around with a bunch of the past. So they put them in storage and it was not until another generation that hoover came along and decided the time had come many years later to bring the book to publication. I was invited to edit it and that came out freedom betrayed in 2011. I give you all that prelude because while working on the other book, i found in the 200 boxes of papers relating to it, the manuscript of this book, and this is a companion volume, the other one focuses on foreign policy, world war ii and the cold war. This is hoovers account mainly of what he called his crusade against collectivism in the United States during the new deal. And it also has some charming chapters on his family the volumes published. Only one of them is not to exist and i discovered as i mentioned before, this one with the permission of the Hoover Family and the foundation, and this book has just been released. Host so many books here he seems to have written his autobiography a number of times. You can see the added send them where the hoover changed battery that stayed the same. As a sort of a pro vita still a . Source of our life Frederick Douglass to his autobiography autobiography a few times . Why did he feel the need to go back and back . Guest hoover wrote over 30 books, including my favorite statistic between the ages of 85 and 90 when he died, he published seven books. Not including the two host did he turn to the phone . Guest every end he wrote with a pencil. He was senate to a typist in the draft would finally we get to the point where he touted by to see what it looks like, so many have it set up and keep tinkering with that peer by delete . Guest partly was perfectionism. He wanted not only his style to be perfect, but also he won at the facts be perfect because he saw both of these books as having a purpose. Freedom betrayed in this one the crusade years, which is his account as a crusader against the new deal socialism and regimentation and all of that. He regarded these as having great value for people to learn lessons from. So he also thought because of its unique stature as the next president and the resources he had come in the access he had as many people with inside information, he thought he was a unique position to bring out to the American People some very, very important lessons about the recent history. So i think that drove him to do it all the more carefully, but he didnt quite zydeco. He affect if we finish the other book just before he died in that was put into storage. This one he had stopped working on. Host a man of tremendous industry with a lot to do right to the end. A description going into a can of campbells soup alone at 10 00 a. M. And found the net and going to write a little boat in the early hours of the morning before anyone else. He was correcting. Do you think he knew Friedrich Hayek the great philosopher who did speak of the road to serfdom by guest yes, the evidently corresponded with her twice. I know that hayek was hoping that hoover would give a blurb for the constitution of liberty of his own in 1960. But i havent been able to find much beyond that. I dont know possibly some correspondence has been lost. It would seem there was at least a couple of casual contacts and correspondence. Beyond that i dont know. Host would come out to third part of our chat, which is about the controversy because if you read the papers today, you agreed it was all hoovers fault or not roosevelts are once in a while it is all roosevelts fall. This is why this book is timely again or for the First Time Since its been discovered because its about what happened in that dark economic. In the United States. I wanted to mention one thing you discovered. I was able to write about your discovery recently. Professor nash signs lots of interesting new things. When it came to blame assigned, people often blamed, coolidge for state and he allegedly made as late as 29, right . The statement was the market was just fine and stop prices were all right. What did you discover . Guest i brought along a copy of the article i will refer to quickly. This is often used against coolidge who said prosperity was sound, quote, unquote in chief in the market. It turns out the only source ive been able to sign was Herbert Hoover. Herbert hoover makes the point in the memoirs. What i did a year or so ago while doing some research on the memoir writing and so forth amid us this before, hoover wrote several drafts and i found the draft and it turns out in the initial draft, he simply made this date men that before hoover came in to the office, coolidge had made statements, but he didnt put quotation marks around the original draft. In the typescript revision, whether secretary putting in some thing, quotation marks were added by the time the book gets published or the passage at hoovers memoirs in 1952. It looks like coolidge said this precisely that we havent been able to find the coolidge said that at that time. Hoover may have had a slip of his memory or may have been thinking of an earlier episode a year before when they had benign comments about the stock market. Host we all have a natural eagerness to shift blame to someone else. In that case, maybe he shifted a little much to coolidge. Who is shifted a little much to hoover ingested by the song. He was only in 233. Themselves the tremendous burden of being assigned blame for a terrible notion of the business cycle. Quite interesting. You know, since hed been writing, since weve been studying hoover, theres been some revision import to point out. One piece of revision relates to the soviet union. When he began writing, hoover said the soviet union was that. The standard history didnt always say the soviet union is that. Two of the discovery of part of papers with the reality reported by soviet refugees, we cant you see, for example, regarding the new deal that there were many people admit to yahoo or communists were reported to moscow. Thats a big change. Since you become an historian and ive begun to look into it. Part of that is possible because of hoovers work in the hoover archives. Not everyone reported to moscow. For example, harry dexter white. So, hoover was in exactly wrong that the soviet union was evil or that has an influence. Guest the diplomatic in 1943 gave them respectability and much easier access into American Public life and in the 30s were developed of the popular front. There is perhaps 1000 members to the communist party and United States. That may seem small, but they were concentrated in effective and energetic and so forth and hoover was worried about this and thought this is point the new deal to the left. Post got it. Was hysterical. He was not inaccurate and we want to give him credit. He was also not inaccurate about the economic and social prospects of the soviet union. We have an evil empire that song would win the war and that was part of the argument of this other book, roosevelt had a naive children about his ability to domesticate just install and can make them boost to all elements about the war. He saw the book freedom betrayed as his testament to the American People are saying youve got to understand the mistakes weve made and we must eliminate the starry eyed notions we have. He didnt take roosevelt was a communist. Not at all. We caught him leftish. Guest thats controversial today an interesting when you look at the current policy, where is the expansionist . Virus at. David davenport, a scholar, with george lloyd, same new deal is the paradigm for modern day. If you for a coming or for government expansion. If youre a good state, the 1930 video, you have other positions about current policy. They say hoover therefore is the designer. What i enjoys you showed hoover thinking about the new deal and formatting things that could be oped articles today. You cannot extend mastery of government over the daily lives of people without him are making a master peoples souls and thoughts. Can you just say a word or two more about what is in this book about the new deal and how it might be perceived . Guest yes, im glad you mentioned david lloyd and the american conservatives and a few months ago. Same publisher might i add. Neither of us knew the other was writing a separate volumes but we have a great deal of convergence and recognizing hoover, really pathetic figure in the leader of the deployment of arguments, antistatist arguments that its now become integral to american conservatism. Some of the argument server makes the 1930s or arguments we have still is a permanent issue in our politics. The government, the free economy, which is the problem, which is the solution. So hoover raises issues that i spoke, which are very defining as you say of the american political landscape. In fact, in 1932, hoover gave a talk at Madison Square garden address speech of his campaign. He said this election is more than a contest between two men into parties. It is between two philosophies of government and the outcome of the election will dictate the course of American Life for 100 years to come. He regarded that as one of the most pathetic speeches he ever gave. What he is doing in this book, the crusade years 19331955 is documenting the 30s and 40s and regarded as the philosophy that ip laws may move towards a regimented society thursday staff who a very large space. Just recall for the theaters, the new deal is in the 19 Great Depression was unfortunately unemployment did not come down to the stock market did not recover. Those are the two main facts that make up the Great Depression. It was the duration that made the depression so great. Sometimes hoover went to fire. You have a wonderful item i believe in one of your appendices where he wrote a letter to a justice. Can you tell us about that . Guest yes, 1940 very briefly when the book he was running against roosevelt as a tight election art looked at it and hoover was afraid was about to get his third term. Hoover went to chief justice of the United States, Charles Evans hughes then asked him to resign from the court in the middle of the campaign and campaign against roosevelt. His Court Packing scheme, which cost them a lot of Political Support and have been an opponent of roosevelt. Post go hoover did not approve because it was the political change. Guest mike turned the tide of the campaign. He thought he couldnt put the court in jeopardy to leave it in two days. Ill roosevelt to do would be to appoint a new bill in the space to the Supreme Court especially of roosevelt got elected. He doesnt talk about in the regular but. It wouldve been more since they shall if it had them. Wrestling with a sense of emergency, and knowing some game i work with president bush for several years and this incredible graciousness is the last act to because these more understates in the end of it. You have an anxiety about the future and how the past is perceived. What do you think is the single most important thing in the book . Guest i think it is hoovers argument. Hoover was unusual among clinical figures of his time and ours in that he believed in the importance of a proper narrative of vendors and enough the past in order to avoid the mistakes of the present and the future. So he did not want to go quietly into the night. He did not want to let the new dealers monopolize the argument, so he fought back and rather rigorously and energetically sketched out a counter narrative, which meant that the new deal came under criticism. I think that argument, whether or not one accepts it and every detail urban fundamentals, it is part of a constant argument we still have about the place of government in our society whether government can you menace as well as they hope. Hoover saw what he called creeping collect or disseminate 30s and is worried about totalitarian liberals. I dont think thats his own coinage, but rather a striking phrase that we could keep our freedoms but still have state control of enterprise. Thats a very high if made a few years. There are some interesting comparisons between hoover and hayek. Guest some fans of hayek dont like hoover. Its incredibly controversial area. Americans think about themselves in politics through these figures. So here is hoover, the gospel according to palo alto is one phrase for hoover issuing from stamp or what might hoover have thought about china now . Would be the . Guest he was tightly disturbed in the late 40s had permitted amounts of time to power. Theres several new books out about the history of china by tyler among others that i think hoover would probably read those books since a look at the horrible, horrible cost of communism in china from 1949 until the turn towards greater Economic Freedom in the 80s. So hoover would probably say, im speculating of course, think of what was lost before china found it so and started in some ways to move in a more prosperous and further direction, still not a totally free society by hoover standards. To think of tens and tens of millions of people whove lost their lives because of utopian fantasies and terrible policies good for chile china has got beyond that, that he would probably be going back to say he mightve avoided all of that was if we had not been so naive to think in that mall was just one more agrarian reform. Host if youre an undergraduate in 1960 or 1967 or graduate me when i was a bit later, but not that much later, what we learned was china was different. It was their culture to be communists. It went along with the sits at 90 when instead chinese communism is terrible, a bit historical. We didnt really learn about the great famine that the professor described as not to further offers a good. Yang wrote about this incredible cnn were tens of millions died, analogous to the gulags, analogous to what hitler did. This is a hidden history. Someone like hoover didnt get much airtime or much attention. So thats what he would have said. China, russia. Guest hoover was soaked with turn that hes trying to bring out the history and dangers of historical trends before people learned belatedly of the cost. He wouldve been frustrated to think that we had the solutions about the relatively benign policy token. In china and it was only much later that we found out or that we find out from the venona papers released in the 1990s about the extent of communist espionage, which hoover had figured out 50 years, 40 years before. I suspect if you are feeling a little out of sorts about it, they why do you americans take so long to reach the conclusions that shouldve been plane had you been studying your history earlier on . Hes trying to be an historian in this boat. Book. Host this is not about ideology. The facts are there. We never got in. So we have a last question for you. What is your advice to Young Scholars . People who might follow you where you might teach . What should they look at what message should they use . Guest well, i think they should work a fresh and not pay too much attention to on the historiography thats developed. Take a flash book. Thats always important. I like to quote a certain phrase. A british historian little hard to use to say nothing can deceive a good document. So i urge young historians dont just take what seems to be the face value of documentation. You might have to have skepticism and dig deeply. Therefore, not except just the standard narrative for what john cannot use to call the conventional wisdom. Much of the conventional wisdom has turned out about the communist period of the new deal. And so on. The early conventional wisdom and the heroic interpretation of those events turn out to be terribly wrong for a least in need of revision. So i would urge young historians to do that. Host i want to point out areas many historians. Dr. Gnashes, the best kind, which is to say very factually very magnanimous. He always sees others may do some useful work. Rather than a divisive and selfish. That is one reason beyond the accuracy of the academic controversy that he is admired so much
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