Lets just get right into it. Before we get into it, i really truly believe that every cop should have this book and not just every cop but in the Business World also because you are talking about integrity. Its a big issue all around but especially with police. Police have a lot of power. We are around money, drugs and corruption could be afoot so this is a great book. Its the second best book i have read this here come the second best. Guest i think the book that you wrote. Host are right you got me on that. Ive a few questions in the beginning in the prologue to talk about this case where you guys were a team that were following this guy. He was going to make a pick up in Washington Heights and hes a young fellow as you describe, grabs him to take him in to get the money or whatever it was. Its actually a rapper named young so. I know you dont listen to rap thats the word its always out there. People always say that guy is a young thug. Why would you describe that and what you classify as a young thug . It doesnt have to be racial. Thats a term that commonly use. Guest in this particular case this individual was not only a lookout but he was the muscle, he was the doorman and he controlled entry and exit from this building so instead of being a regular security person this guy was making sure that the police werent getting anywhere near the apartment or in some cases as we have seen the other people who were coming to steal from the drug dealers. Host okay. Something very interesting he stayed in the book and im quoting, bad cops are seldom bad cops just once. Please explain. Guest okay. In social science theres something called the slippery slope where at least the premise is that if you do something wrong and its miner it will gradually grow into something more serious. When someone makes the decision to commit a crime as a Police Officer, stealing, using Excessive Force, very rarely especially when we catch them is the first time they have been involved. What i would like to say and im sure youll echo this is that the overwhelming vast majority of the nypd officers dedicated hardworking men and women who at one of the toughest jobs in the country. Good people but its that small percentage, that less than 1 2 of 1 who are corrupt, who are brutal and who are bad cops. Host we are going to get to that. Guest is that that steals the headlines away from the good cops. Host you talked talk about that. We are going to get back to that but how often and also how often do internal affairs regular cops become criminals and once you guys wrap them they flip. How often do they flip because i know that cops dont want to rat out other cops but you have caught cops that have also committed serious crimes. How often would they wear a wire or rat out their fellow cops . Guest it doesnt happen as often often as the sugars often is a good but it does happen from time to time and a lot of it has to do with how deeply involved it is. Unfortunately sometimes the worst is the first one that gets arrested in the first one willing to talk so we use every method we can good solid investigative techniques like flipping people and using bad cops and putting them back out there using them as their agents and informants but yes we do. Probably doesnt happen as often as it could. Host earlier in your career and you did 41 years. Guest yes i did. Host you are more than 38 years old. 41 years and early in your career. What i gather out of the book is that you were straight as an arrow right from the top. The most particular case i really applaud you for is when you and your partner romeo were chasing a young kid and you saw he burglarized the place and you caught him leaving with the bag. You guys had the equipment your gun belt and youre fast and everything. He was a young kid starting at running and your partner got into a crouching stand that was ready to shoot him pretty much in the back i guess and you stop your partner and said no, we cant do that. I applaud you for that. This was in the 70s. There was corruption everywhere. I really applaud you for that. How did you feel after you did that . Guest i didnt want that young man to be heard for what he did. There was no justification for using that level of force on that young man. He was out running us and again good for him. Cops and robbers, good for him i was he was running away but i would get him eventually but i couldnt allow him to be shot running away from us. Host you guys still caught him if i remember. Guest yes we did. He had dropped the bag. He had a bag full of supplies out of the beauty parlor, nothing expensive hair drier, clock radio, brushes and cosmetics, things of that nature and once he dropped the bag he was not going to be caught. He was a young man and he was running fast and we saw him run into one of the abandoned buildings. And eventually we would catch him in the building trying to hide under some debris under broken door. Guest thats great and its for cops to take that stand most cops dont want to rock the vote if this is the way things are going. Exit when i read your book i actually was really straight in my career, very straight. I have this image and im reading your book and im like wow hes just like me, so straight which brings me to one of the funniest parts of your book they that you paid 10 for it. Guest it was only 1 dollar. Host lets set this up. Truly hard for me to believe that during the 70s, 80s and 90s he didnt take one cup of coffee . This is what used to happen to me. I was scared in the early 90s. I would purchase and they would want to get the stuff. I was so scared because im a rookie. I would say you got to lease give me four quarters. So you did that quite often . Guest i did and if the place wouldnt take my money i wouldnt would go back again. On when this happened coffee and tea were about 10 cents. I would get coffee for myself and my partners and i didnt have any change. The man was so adamant i just left a dollar and walked out. Host it became a running joke in the precinct. Guest why would you pay a dollar for a 10cent cup of tea . Guest . Host the book is so authentic. All of these stories i can relate to. There has been a tremendous amount of obstruction and this goes back to something you are saying. Your estimation is that less than half of 1 of cops are bad. Explain a little further. For the people who are watching. Guest i spent 41 years in the nypd. I saw acts of courage, bravery and integrity but theres always that small number of cops who keep you up at night. When i was at commander everyone knew the person or maybe two that you didnt trust and the officers did not trust him or her either. What i did when i went to internal affairs is i brought the Commanding Officers on board and we would meet with them on a regular basis. I would ask them questions like who in your command are you a little concerned about . Who in your command keeps you up at night . We will do an investigation for you and maybe do an integrity test and maybe we wont want to talk about them later but we will put a case in your command. Some commanders are worried they are too many cases against my command he will think im not doing a good job. We always tell them you are part of the investigatory team. If you work with me youll come out of this looking well not being criticized. I always looked for that person and the other cops are willing to tell you if you are willing to listen who to stay away from and who they dont want to work with. Host that case really bothered me that we will talk about that later because like you said Everybody Knows who the hothead is. Thats like corporate america. You know this guy is dead weight and i want to work with that guy but with a policeman its so much more. Guest you have to be able to come forward and have to be of the standup and sometimes be ridiculed for it. I stopped my partner at the time and it wasnt easy for me in the beginning. The good thing was my reputation was that i was not a bad cop said they came to me and they said tell us what really happened. They will come and listen to your side of the story. They may not believe you but they will give you an opportunity to talk. Host in the last 25 years a dramatic decrease in crime at nypd takes a lot of credit and rightfully so. Things had changed from 42nd street to what it is today. You dramatically dropped corruption at the nypd. I have to give you credit. I know that you did and from reading the book you really explain it. Now, you think there is a direct correlation between the drop in corruption and the decrease in crime . Thats something i was thinking about when i was reading the book. Guest i would like to think so but the truth of the matter is when we were first starting an internal affairs back in 1993 we looked and we saw that for the most part internal affairs around the world was conducted very reactively. Someone makes a complete and we investigate the complaint but it had very little effect on corruption and the level of complaints we were getting so we changed our focus. We would take complaints from anyone but we decided in order to be effective we needed to be proactive. I think that proactive investigation is what set us apart on the other Police Departments and also was mainly responsible for the dash in corruption. Not willing to take credit for the reduction in crime. Host i think it belongs to the men and women of the nypd that as highranking members would like to stand up when crime goes down and say its our policies and procedures but its the men and women on the street to make it work. Host definitely. We got closer to the community and people were giving us more information but they credit goes to the nypd. You are working in brownsville in the 73rd precinct. I never knew that it was called for z. Thats the old name. Lets just think about this. It was one of the most violent places in the city of new york in the 70s. Fastforward now 40 years later. I was Commanding Officer psa to which were in the housing developments. As we scissor today my estimation is that brownsville is the most violent city in new york. I actually believe that. When do you think the Police Department is actually going to read that place of crime . Host guest i worked there for so many years and there were so many good and honest people people that i like to help as best i could. Its cyclical and as new york city is changing and we have seen all the parts of brooklyn is just in a matter of time before people discover that are on sale is the next hotspot and people are going to get in and they are going to make the changes with the Police Department with State Government to start to turn that place around. Host i believe thats the only place that hasnt turned yet. All those housing developments. Now, when you are on vacation with your wife, someone approaches you that you arrested before. I had the exact same experience. It was in jamaica and you were in the Virgin Islands. I did not do what you did. The he knew who i was but what stood out to me is relationships are every thing and when the cops are on the game is over so that means when you build relationships you are really doing the right thing because you would see this guy in the Virgin Islands when you and your wife are buying cigars and that could be a problem but a severe relationship that you had with your prisoners not that you had a close relationship but i gather you gain their respect. Guest i never hit a prisoner and then never let anyone else hit a prisoner in this particular case this young man was locked in a cell for a couple of hours and it was during the blackout. We couldnt have been as accommodating as they wanted to be. Host i remember i was a kid when the blackout happened that you really described exactly what everybody talked about. Host was a chaotic scene in all this young man wanted was to go to the bathroom and have a drink of water. How could i deny someone back . In good faith how could i deny someone back . Host you would be surprised that a lot of cops were denied a guy go into the bathroom. You also talked about what me and you know and anybody and Law Enforcement knows. I was so happy to read that you said the hook is alive and well. Let me explain to the people with the hook is. Basically if you know somebody, corruption i worked at mcdonalds and i was a ceo in light nephew wanted to job i would probably put them on french fries and move them up to be the manager. Guest theres nothing corrupter untoward about it. The hook is people who know Police Officer sometimes they put them in commands that are more favorable. Command is easier for them to commute back and forth. Commands that are better suited for younger officer. Host it wasnt suited for the guy that was doing the corruption in the book were you sent him from Staten Island all the way to the bronx. The. Guest theres something called highway and its not used often but sometimes its a way of getting a strong message across that you are here to do a job, do your job. Host exactly. Now you talk about something that bothers you was go away money and go away money is basically a lawsuit against the city of new york, the Police Department and the city says hey lets just settle this for a suit and then you can speak about it, 10,000 or 20,000. In 1999, 1997 i believe the Officers Association had a lawsuit based on discrimination working conditions. Minorities were being severely punished more harshly than other people and cases of disciplinary action. They settled the suit for 27 million. Do you think that was hush money . Guest heres the way the attorneys describe it and im opposed to it from day one. If you have done something wrong you have to make amends. My mother told me that when i was a child but if you are right you need to defend yourself. And a lot of these cases the attorneys will come and say we will do a cost analysis. It will cost us 100,000 in legal fees and court fines etc. But if we get the person said thousand dollars they wont go away and the city saved 90,000. I think this encourages lawsuits. People will say our case isnt strong. Our case may not even be wonderful but if we sue maybe they will give us go away money. They will give us money and we have made money. The city says we have done nothing wrong. The individual officer says he or she did nothing wrong but they are encouraging it in my opinion and if you are right you need to stand up and fight. Host okay. The infamous mike dow. You speak about the mic dow and i believe you said, do you believe that there were other mike dows out there at this time . Is so hard for me to believe that he was the only person that was robbing drug dealers way back then. Guess who it had to be more. Host it had to be more. Why do you think the Police Department when after these guys . Guest you have to remember back then you had the internal Affairs Division which was an outgrowth of the nap division and they were there to handle what at the time was systemic corruption within the Police Department, very reactive approach. What they did was they didnt grow as corruption grows. In my time i have seen corruption go from systemic to opportunistic to now familiar. Familiar corruption, thats the most difficult to detect and prosecute. As corruption was mutating on the systemic corruption, systemic music goes up and down the entire organization. We find that latterly plus word late vertically in the organization. That was basically eliminated and today im happy to say during my time i see no signs of systemic corruption. Opportunist pick corruption where people take advantage of opportunity, now that is much more difficult to be reactive. The old internal Affairs Division did not grow, did not evolve as corruption was mutating. They tried to do the old things over and over again and they were ineffective. Corruption was allowed to flourish not on purpose but it does they just didnt do it correctly. Host now, when you took over, i love that you said ray kelly basically stuck the ied right on the throat. It doesnt matter. When the boss tells you to go somewhere you just say i i served. If you say anything other your career will probably just be stagnant. The thing i got out of that, want to know and i may have to reread it who came up with a twoyear rotation . Was that you are ray kelly . Guest that was part of the plan. What we did is we did focus groups. Host explain to people what the twoyear commitment is. Guest the twoyear commitment is you are drafted and he could no longer volunteered to be in i. D. Some people say shanghai. What we would do was to advocate the most talented people. The people with the best reputation, people of the best records people who have proven their work to the Police Department. We did these focus groups and we found out the opinion of the old internal Affairs Division was not very favorable. They were either cowards afraid to be real cops so they went to internal affairs instead or they were rats. When people got caught doing bad things in exchange for leniency they would rather have other cops or they were people who wanted to change the world and didnt know how they wanted to do at the dayton know they had to change the world. I dont know that was true or not but thats what the cops believed so we got together and we were putting together a new internal affairs for euro and we said we cant let People Volunteer because they are not well thought out. We are going to have to change that could we are going to make it a draft. We are only going to bring people in who are respected none in a highquality investigative supervisor. To make it more palatable we said there should be a minimum of a twoyear commitment. Looking back on it now i probably would change that. I would publicly make it a threeyear commitment because by the time i had those investigators up and running atop speed they were looking to move on. I would change that if i could. If i could go back in time i would change that to three years but it changed the perception. No longer were they cowards and rats but they were respected members of the Police Department who when their twoyear commitment was up they would go back into policing and be accepted by the rankandfile Police Officers. Host that was a good idea and i know the guys came in kicking and screaming but after a while they pretty much come down because they had no choice. You are here you might as well make the best of it. Now, do you think out of the five of the cases that you mentioned only one or 2 are substantiated. For me in the precinct theyre like i will be to ccr v. I just graduated out of college and they have no police experience. They dont know what to do with a family dispute so do you believe some of the investigators should have a background . Guest ccr be was by unit. The investigators were seasoned detectives and police personnel. The managers of the case and the civilian Complaint Review board were all prominent civilian members of the community. I think that balance really works well. When they decided to complete their civilian term they had people wellmeaning intelligent people but didnt understand police work and i think that was a detriment to them. Host some of the dispositions that come back. Guest completely unprosecutable. They would come back with decisions that were completely unprosecutable. Host i had a partner nevermind his but he was an original street crime. He had 350 arrests. He had zero ccrbs and you wrote he is a cop i know he is a cop because you said the more arrests you make a higher probability you have of civilian complaints which i dont necessarily agree with. He had 400 arrests and he had no complaints. Guest he was probably one of the finest officers youve ever worked with but what im saying is the possibility grows. Someone is not going to like the way you performed your duties. Host lets talk about a little bit of controversy. Something that really bothers you and i talk about my partner, his father was first in a manhattan setting and said it never seen anything like that in his career. You speak about all that. The veterans was like no, this could not happen. You mentioned that those cops should have never been assigned to the unit in the first place. Diallo is the one in the stairwell, in the vestibule. Okay so you talk about it in great detail and i remember the first day watching the trial and the defensive lawyer was breaking it down and within an hour i was like wow but to the public its shot number one. This was his mindset in this was the trajectory. You broke that down and it was really nice for someone who wants to know about the dlo shooting you broke down. What i didnt see in that was they broke that unit up three times. The commander, he left after giuliani. 100 cops to 400 cops. He kind of lowered standards. The original street crime no civilian complaints and here on this night we have for cops in three of them had a shooter. I think all of them except for one had civilian complaints. Do you think lowering the standards caused the shooting . Guest im not so sure it caused the shooting. Host contributed . Guest i wouldnt say lowering the standards. I would say maybe we should have been a little more circumspect before we put officers out it didnt have enough training. Maybe we should have had them working with more experienced officers. The idea was to expand and perhaps even a little fast. We should have done more and especially putting these four officers together. Here we have mr. Dlo an unarmed man who did nothing wrong trying to get into his house a terrible terrible tragedy. I point out in the book the series of errors that compounded one another and to the point where the day is over and they have five lives irreparable damage and five families changed forever. And not for the good. Host you stayed in the book as a young cop you never used force per unit that was it was happening. That stood out to me and my question was did you report it . Guest if i saw people using Excessive Force i stopped them. Host you did not report it. Guest my friend romeo there, i reported him to the supervisors. Host but you didnt are tacky of articulate that. Im glad you clarified that. Guest i told the sergeant who is going to be a problem in prophetically unfortunately he was fired from nypd. I knew what he was doing. Delft. Definitely. I think with the seconds case because they didnt report it quickly. It was, it was information that they, didnt believe they had hit anyone. You have to believe it was a series of reck says but they didnt want to report the accidental discharge until they found out that the man was shot. And then they made the report. So from the beginning he called it so there was a little bit i accidentally fired my n but nobody was hurt. Lets not tell anybody about this and then found out he was hurt and had no choice but to forward in the beginning like i fired my gun. I made a mistake unfortunately man is shot and killed. Very is tragic. Eric garn or case now you write in the book that pentlayo used a choke hold do you not believe that was a choke hold . What i saw the case come this is in after im gone. You was gone. I didnt investigate that case. All i have is what the general public has a picture, videos that they showed on television. There was several videos that never made it to television. Since i was gone i wasnt really to them. But if you look a at it originally a mover sometime they call it a half had nelson and it wasnt a regular choke hold per se. As it progresses, it gets worse but originally what they grab him and take him down not necessarily a choke hold at that point. Thats the pva, press conference trying to articulate that it was some type of jiu jitsu move. But general public was somebody put their arm arranged your neck you squeeze it is youre choking me. What happens if you look at it carefully the beyond officer not saying it was justified. But arm comes under the man and now goes to his head so it is not a choke hold it is not an arm bar choke hold and i prosecuted the baez disa clear choke hold. Anthony baez clear choke hold. In the bronx bronx, yes. Lets talk a little bit about the narcotic scandal, big scandal. Brooklyn itself. That pretty paying drug dealersr crack heads with money and drugs you guys find out about the whole case, and what you wrote on there which i knew and public doesnt know that top three commanders were relieved of their duties. Yes, they were. Yes. But one of them is Police Commissioner of the city of new york. You have to remember we did that case it was no information that commanders were involved whatsoever. Executive it is pretty much youre holding the bags. If you are the boss something goes wrong, draw back the hold. Yeah, if so actually i believe in nypd, people believe that cops and executives believe that commissioner oneal paid a long debt for that case. And actually now hes coming back and a probably with where he should be after being i. C. E. For so long. A fabulous job. A good job but i just wanted to put that out there. So that people know it is for cos like you can be a part of something but bounce back. Oh, yes unless you are a participant, if youre a commander, given another opportunity. If we cant show that you were complicit in some way and something that you should have known, then you suffered consequences. Exactly. Now, to ccrb you talk about how it is outside entities that oversee, you know, the the new york city Police Department you talk about the u. S. Attorney. You name about 78 7 other entity they start inspecting so many people. Bumping into each other. Pretty much so many units that is looking. But you talk about the separate entity as well as the about Deputy Commissioner trial and our trial room. But deputy aa pointed by commissioner and ccrb the mayor appoints five of them so arent they like kind of part of the nypd . In a sense completely independent and does nots take its direction from the Police Department. And the trial commissioner although appoint by police chitioner when they make a decision if Police Commission disagrees it is not just a matter of saying i disagree and im going to ignore it. He has to go and he has to explain in writing why hes overcoming position. Isnt ace peel from the position and who do you appeal to . If Police Commissioner says no one is guilty says guilty you can go to court follow article 78 proceeding in new york state or federal court. Because you know as commander or i would guy would be found guilty in the trial room, and everybody wants to appeal and you know, in the patrol guy, he is the last word. [laughter] but theres always state and federal courts. Right. Theres a lima incident, most horrific thing ive ever had to do yes. Thats what i was alluding to earlier with my partner although 40year veteran like yourself, i dont know anybody that thought i was a young cop and i remember going to jobs every job i went to, i had had a purpose saying are you going to stick inside of me a tough time for the nypd at that time and tough time for us you talk about it that case and i learned a lot. You guys on it early on. We had the case on sunday. Yes, but you did not leak it. Why . Why let the news, why let the the news leak it before you guys because it made the public think that the nypd was trying to hide this thing. Wrnght heres the problem internal investigations are usually in nature very secretive and we dont have the opportunity to stand up before a press conference and explain to them what we know happened what we believe happened. And talk about investigative steps along the way mainly because we have to bring this case to a grand jury in state court or in federal court as a matter of fact we did it twice first in the state court and then back do it again in the federal court. We dont have that opportunity. And theres no prosecutor in the world would want his ore or her case being discussed with the media while it is in the developmental stages. So you have to keep that as quiet as you can. Because maybe we want to take a run at someone or take a run at someone we know you were working that night. May say we were going to give you an opportunity to talk and clear yourself, in this juncture. So we dont want to let everybody how many day was it before the news news doesnt were on at sunday news didnt hit the paper until wednesday. You was pretty pissed that detective drop the ball when nurse first called so public. So you just create you created this command center, detectives are trained any call comes in i dont care who it is came on line, log in, do this, that, and just that night somebody doesnt come to work and you have to fly somebody in that doesnt have is training and nurse call about the distinct i believe something happened, and he tells to call back or she says ill call back. He makes rookie mistake but hes a rookie on command center. Hes an investigator who should have known better certainly had enough experience and enough train aring not to make what mistake but first night there he gets a call. She is trying to be coy. She says at first that shes mr. Lumia wife but cant pronounce his name and does two or three times. And he says well lady dont you your own husband, so she says let me call you back and he makes first mistake okay call me back. Never let the person off the phone if you can. And then anticipating her callback, he never says anything to his supervisor so he compounds his mistake. Was he disciplined . Yes. Absolutely. That was one of my questions. Absolutely. And some people may think very harshly because he just had had a phone call but the consequences that resulted in that are very serious. Wasnt just a phone call. Wasnt a regular phone call. Worst phone call you could have imagined but some of his support rs saying he made a mishad take on phone thats what the union argued at the Department Trial but consequence were far greater than the phone call. Okay, blue wall of silence in my opinion after 21 years, i dont really believe its as big as people want. You to believe so i want your opinion on blue wall as a commander, writing everybody up. But the public really believes like theres a big blue wall. Heres the thing blue wall of silence exist yes it is but not insurmountable but heres the question for you what make you think that walls are silent are only in the Police Profession . No its not. Its in every profession. We have a case where there was a firefighter got into a fight with another firefighter. And in a fire house, he was hit with a chair. Very severely injured it shall the fire department, the workers not the department itself cleaned up the crime scene, they took him to the hospital and said, he fell off the ladder while he was fixing something. You wrote about that and in very public case. We found out later what really happened. And nypd investigated found out what really happened. Right. In the medical profession, in the Legal Profession in the wall street profession, there is a camaraderie when people work with together and especially in policing where your safety depends on other officers. That wall seems to be a little stronger than other places. But it is not insurmountable in the case that you brought up, it was the Police Officer it is in the precinct that were coming forward one by one originally people did not want to believe this happened. They couldnt believe that a human being would sexually another human being and make it worse. One was a cop and im going to command it, it happened in a Police Station and couldnt believe it. Slowly as facts started to come out as information started to be gattrd the other officers especially the officers in the 7th precinct started to say wait a minute, i remember this. I remember that and they came forward. One officer called this up in the middle of the night first well he said i cant sleep. This is bothering me i need to talk to somebody right now. And we rushed somebody over there, and he gave us the information we needed. Wow. So public the blue wall not as big as you think it is. But it is not just in policing. Let me throw a word at you integrity tell you how you feel about integrity. What you do when someone is not looking. What you do when people are looking is easy and what youre not to find your integrity. Thats going to bring me to the mortician you put a sting on her, you fund out she was stealing money. Allegation that used to owe dead on arrival, money was missing not substantial amount. A little bit here, a little there you do a sting on her. And she takes a couple of hundred bucks. But then you say she made 37,000 a year, and one of the worst in the city of new york, what was your position . It didnt matter how much you made, you have to be you have to be honorable and have integrity. That doesnt mean youre not human. Doesnt mean that you cant understand why people do it. Did you ever reare great having to terminate a cop . Well, if they did what they were supposed to do and you have to remember eb the way theyre set new a Police Department nobody about is alone in the process. Ied is the investigator. We present our information to the department advocates office who is the department prosecutor. Or we present our information to a federal estate prosecutor the case then goes to a trial whether administrator trial before the trial commissioner or before a federal or state judge. The decision is rendered. The decision on whether the person loses his or her job or not belongs to Police Commissioner or the state law which says youre convicted of a felony or misdemeanor related to your duties, you automatically give u up your office. You vacate your office upon conviction of a felony or a misdemeanor related to your duties. Did you ever in 21, 21 years in ieb. 21 did you ever give somebody a Second Chance . Of course. But they paid the penalty. See, chief isnt as hard as people make him out to be. [laughter] the penalty has to fit the crime but also has to fit the individual is not everybodys record is the same. A officer who has 20 years of service should not be treated as an officer who has one year of service. Especially that 20 years is blemish free. The scandal major, thats the last scandal on the year the last major scandal. The tiki scandal and man, that it was it was just inharntly known that family members get tickets people are calling, trying to get rid of the tickets. You know, just something that happens. But you said you would and i quote you wish that some of the civilian that have their tickets fixed would have been charged. Why . Because theyre committing the crime as well. You see, heres the thing, number one when we were doing an invest we have a Police Officer in the bronx who was very bad Police Officer. Veried bad. He was dealing with marijuana dealers. You gave him a lot of rope. Two years. Two years were because ticket scandal was developing and couldnt bring the case down because ticket scandal was shoot of things investigate. Dealing with that every day. Dealing with a lot of stuff. Ready to take him down, we had work with the bronx District Attorney as a matter of fact we even had had a grand jury date to start the presentation, whether the ticket scandal starts to evolve we here on a wiretap had a wiretap and hear our major bad cop asking other cops to pex the ticket and initial response was initial charge and charge him with all of the felony, charge him with the drugs and the stealing all of the thing we did on it three integrity test on him and solidify our case. But we had him. But then another tick and that starts to snowball and decision was made the that we werent going to go to the grand jury until we had the complete case and boy, it was a case. It is still going on. Some people yeah, the investigation is over. The best i know when i left it was some people still had not been criminal Justice System yet. Postponement, delays, et cetera. Okay, this is this is great im loving it. Good stuff a lot of good information being put out there. The drunk aren hero cop you stated in your career as a supervisor internal saying if any of your bosses and boss would probably be one person didnt answer a chief of department but a pc if anybody ever told you to change a decision as you was walking out and you was leaving. So here we have the drunken cop offduty in the bar, let some rounds go up and leave the place and getting robbed. You just you suspend him and suspended him but next day mayor bloomberg tells commissioner ray kelly calls to put that guy back to full duty. He was restored to duty. By the authority to Police Commissioner that happens all of the time. But change the decision. Know, i charged him but they put him back to duty. Let me [sound of gunfire] you the story. Hes in afterhours place unlicensed premise. Automatic suspension number one. Also now hes unpit for duty derision on the unlicensed premise and drinking in his car and found alcohol in his car. Theres a man having a fight with a young lady and hes trying to pull her towards a delivery cap her fires shot. Man lets the come go and he jumps into the car takes off. We dont know if hes hit or not. Hes then about because the firearm discharged rule was you have to be breath liesed if someone could have been hurt. Someone could have been hurt as a matter of fact the man was hurt. He was shot. So he then refuses the breathalyzer test. Hes takes the test on the scene and he blows intoxicated. Now, according to procedure he has to go to take the more sophisticated idtu test he reare fuses to take it so theres three reason ares to suspend them number one unlicensed premise. Number two unfit for duty. Number three disobeyed direct order to take this test thats why he was suspended. Okay, all right. I stuck to my guns. You statistic to the gun but when a big goes nothing to do. Final line belongs to commissioner restored to duty nothing you could do. About ten minutes left and i want to get through some of these things. Stop questioning frisk. Stop questioning san frisk you k of stof question and friive there was a federal lawsuit right before i dont think you liked too much mayor de blasio you talk very nice about giuliani and bloomberg and mayor de blasio theres issues with the the police when he said question and frisk was unconstitutional the way the nypd was implementing it. Two things, one, did you do any integrity test for people with stop question and frisk . Thats what had im reading this. I wanted to know. Did you . Let me just give you a little background on stop question and frisk. People call it stop question and frisk policy. Not a policy it is a law. Integrity that goes back to terry versus ohio in the 60s also a part in the criminal procedure of law of new york state that allows you to do that. But whats happening in some cases was that people were cutting corners. Officers were cutting corners they were trying to do the right thing in the wrong way. And thats you know you can call that noble cause corruption. It is corruption. Put any nice adjective you want in front of it, but its still corruption. And you to your job you do your job correctly an we did integrity test in some cases watching two officers, and we were watching them the whole day. Surveillance on them unrelated matter, and at the end of the week we checked all of their records to see what they did in all and noticed on this specific date they each had filled out that form the u. S. 50, saying they stopped and questioned an individual. Very vague description. Refused identification, eversion. They never, ever stopped anyone that day when we called him in, they lied, they told u. S. Truth and said we lied on those it reports. Our sergeant tells us we have to do stop and question and this is the way we do it. We fill out forms and we turn them in and nobody is the wiser that particular day we were the wiser because we were watching them on unrelated matter. We also had cases and we prosecuted these people as we bring the case to the local District Attorney first and if not the District Attorney feels it is insufficient evidence to go forward to bring administratively where my undercovers were stopped and questioned but my undercover is stop and question and sometimings frisk inappropriately. And what we did is we charged those officers, we made it known that we were doing these things that we want the people to understand you have to follow the rules. Plain and simple. I mean stop, question, and frisk spiral and what got me, i was compstat command at meeting, i understand. You dont have stop, question, and frisk . Crime was going down. Stop question and frisk was going up, high and higher in the gap and nobody, nobody and i have to take blame. Nobody said hague, when we were stopping 20,000 people we were getting 16 decrease in crime and now 2 increase. Is there something wrong with that . And you know, i think every executive in nypd takes a little blame for that. Well i think we pushed it a little too far. Definitely it is a great tool when you like all tools must be used correctly. You know, the case i use stop question and frisk is greatest case is james the tennis player, without the tackle thats great. Someone walks up and say this cant rob me. You go over and dont tack the the guy but thats the public they want cops to stop people especially with information suspicion of probable cause that the crime was committed. This is good stuff. After 40 years and then going to get back to that. Do you have any regrets in your career . Do i have any regrets in any career . Probably something i should have done better or more of i think what i did was i took i took the whole job to heart. And at times my family suffered because of it. You know i used to go to work very early and get home late at night and precinct commander there was a couple of times when my Anticrime Team came in and without as you know, without supervisor cant go out and we talked about that with that shooting and Anticrime Team would come and say the supervisor is not available to be the for whatever reason were going to have to put our uniforms on where do you want us to go and i would say stay . Civilian clothes and get out of my uniform put on my civilian clothes and take Anticrime Team out. Ray kelly frowned upon that. He definitely you remember we have to shoot at a 73 with captain [inaudible conversations] so captain get involved in gun shootings is it wasnt good. What are you most proud of . Most proud of your time in the nypd . Well i think we made a difference. Corruption went down. You have to remember corruption goes down by 50 at a time when the nypd is growing. In 1995 we merge with the housing and Transit Police bringing Traffic Control agent. Weaver were bringing school and nypd grows to 50,000 so at a time when nypd is growing over 50,000 corruption allegations are going down. I think that was a great accomplishment. Wow. Before we go, after 40 years whats next for you . I think im going to try to repay which i dont know if i can ever to repay my family for time they lost and a grandchildren are going to be most beneficiaries of that because theres nothing i wouldnt do for them now. Well, listen, chief. I really appreciate you coming out for this interview. A lot of information, clearing up a lot of things to for the potential and i delft would love for everybody especially cops to get this book. Because you will learn the pill falls of corruption. Thanks a lot chief. My pleasure cory. Thank you so many of. Thank you. Cspan, where history unfolds daily. In 1979 cspan was created as a Public Service by americas Cable Television companies. And is brought to you today by your cable or satellite provider. Heres a look at some of the upcoming book fairs and festivals happen hadding around the country. On april 22nd and 23rd booktv will be live from the Los Angeles Times festival of books, held on campus of the university of southern california. And on may 20th will be live from the gaithersburg festival in brooklyn north of washington, d. C. And for may 31st to june 2nd look for us at the Publishing Industry annual trade showbook expo america in new york city. Where it will sit down with authors and publishers to discuss forthcoming books for more information about booktv will be covering and to watch previous festival coverage, list the book fairs tab on our website booktv. Org o. Belong [inaudible conversations] all right. You guys are doing great. [laughter] id like thank you you did it, great, id like to send a special thank you fost