Slaughter to discuss her exciting new books the chessboard and the web the most recent of several books she has written she is currently the president and ceo of new america. And from the public and International Affairs those are just some of the past assignments in the illustrious career. So as the discussion and you will see they are both a practitioner as will as a theorist or a teacher or professor of International Affairs so why now we jump right in and tell us about the pieces of the book and why you decided to write the book now . Guest it is great to talk to you and reflect on our experiences as Foreign Policy practitioners ive been writing about networks since 1994 so as a scholar i have them looking at how the world was increasing from a the hierarchical organizations like the imf or world they can increasingly with government officials and central bankers or finance ministers as a humanitarian disaster playing an Important Role and so if you chair the situation rooms to know thats if you know, about north korea or china or russia that state to state relations is very important and i think about that as the chess board and how we be our adversaries and anticipating on the lives they will make but equally important is what i call the world of the web and as the of world as business and of those actors so this is say book to save the world of the chess board dealing with conflict before states and of how to design the networks for specific people to meet those challenges are fans of gold. So just a building on what you said in his opening remarks, so let me go to what was a pretty effective with that argument you say and pages number nine and 10 so using those pood ability to operate but side by side with corporate in civil and criminal actors so of the web of networks so is it their realist and then the networks . Or how do you see that . And the field that we have both been that endless debate between the liberal internationalist so had you pursuits of values that is overplayed and i strongly believe that we have to pursue our values so i would also say we have to be able to put together the trespasser the chess board strategies of shortterm and longterm so thinking about the of the least or what do we do with iran or syria there is the media said of choices to push back gore tried to cooperate and sometimes we dont run a longerterm if you think of mr. Obama speech in 2009 with a new beginning of the muslim world to address the of causes of terrorism and other problems coming out of the middle east with the networks of the civic groups and a scientist of the muslim groups so that is where the web strategy comes san with the civic groups and government to design a network a particular way. So thats question that you recall on page 37 of the desegregation of the states which has been arguing since 1994 looking at these markets. So these networks is the results of this segregation of the states many different parts of government peel away from the chess board model so to create networks of private and civic factors. But the question that i have is as were watching the debates plan out so the election of President Trump to then argue as a candidate and got on going debates such to pull back from the European Union and then to the of those interests are best served by more in gauging the network. So that sense of the ebb and flow with the development of the networks and to dig into that. That is a great question and it goes back that in the book to see a young lady or woman . Item number that says something about me . I will leave that to you and your wife. But you have to see both sova to toggle between them. So the state needs to be unitary if under attack of the different corporations with the secretary of state and treasury so when we are under threats there were many different contexts with the state department that was is a unitary state somebody in charge on the same playbook but at the same time in a globalized world our networks are great source of power into vintage and what is seen around the of world the universities are attracting with running campuses abroad and the civic organizations we have to be able to do both. So for instance that means our cities and states are able to ring gauge others like on Climate Change so california they are now working with their counterparts because they can do things on the ground if you are fighting terrorism you of the ability to help build educational institutions in the states that dont have opportunities to fight the longterm causes of terrorism ever rose zero toggle backandforth all hands on deck but it is critically important to say a to stay open and participate. But in that the state of california and even to convene the meeting the ministers of the government in mexico or the state of mexico the ministers of the government of canada is a remarkable case. Do you see risk . With u. S. Policy makers . So this is the world as it is . To be an independent country. But do you see risk . Absolutely. This is the whole question of the Supreme Court to revisit several times and i am sure this is about what individual states can do early on in the Supreme Court to issue a ruling that said the state cannot engage entreaties the other states so actually to create formally with the governments so and the 1990s when they started to have a trade delegation to china and other parts of asia and as say actively intervened in issues in the u. S. The lawsuit about the ability to tax so it is back to seeing the United States has said country of 50 states that we benefit as the nation to forge relationships with other countries are states around the world so chicago has more sister cities so those earning about the United States so the state or the city cannot get you into trouble so that date located with the federal Government Back in the revolutionary era they didnt want the states to pay those british but that could get this into war with britain so it is a balance because you simply have to allow more independence and what my eight of the defense capacity. If it is remarkably diverse as we dig into this with a couple of questions that north korea is fascinating but the networks themselves somebody who has been looking at this for a long time i noticed mark soderbergh talked about zucker talkedabout this. But you break down different kinds of networks but to palau one example, of but in each of the kind of networks you highlight the importance of diversity so the Network State ultimately so on page 134 then in the context is a the tasks are best carried out by small diverse groups the diversity of team members to get perspective while those that build trust to adapt endlessly to changing circumstances. If my memory serves me from a former colleague of ours of the canada terrorism operations. So im also interested in the concept of diversity because one could argue that this debate between those who want to stay in the European Union or get out of the European Union there is the debate about the chessboard and what is uniquely their own so that is a question of sovereignty. And also to the web but is the dray a push back kahn the trend because people feel the sovereignty slideway . Because of this powerful diversity and retrenching against that. So then to work backwards to oversimplify a that word too homogeneous over 10 years or 50 years so this great wave of globalization starting in the 70s and 80s and then it takes off with Digital Technology that some call a really is a web if you would get the internet were all connected solely the internet does not recognize those it brings benefits and also brings immigrants and changing cultures or there are new ways to work that many people find frightening and one way to understand the politics so was my vocabulary to be the chessboards date to be france or britain this is what defines us this is our culture and we are of the world stage so you do have to Pay Attention to that real anxiety with the writ way of life that is comforting to be proud of but many people feel is slipping away so you have to Pay Attention to the ability to defend ourselves as a state. The other way to understand it the countries that have the most diverse city internally and connected to those ideas abroad that will flourish the most. It isnt all good or all bad like being connected to countries where there are criminals we dont want to be open to those countries those networks bring danger fair enough but those connections also bring export and talents all the people who study innovation say innovation and creativity comes from the collision so of we grew up in this same place we are much less likely to come up with something new then reaching out to those that you expose yourself to new experiences and ideas, that is the of magic of the spark of creativity, the United States from a the country that has connections to the educational system that opened this is the greatest assets but with the chessboard we have to make sure we can protect ourselves and that is the of balance. It is remarkable player persuaded by the argument but on one of the more powerful things is the argument with this particular network with the broad political question but it seems to me that general my crystal crystal would argue that the tactical level and add that strategic level is that a fair reading . Yes that is a great example i wanted to write the book is in 2011 right after i got outta of government and had been writing about nachman negative networks over decades then i wrote an article and was knocked in a different direction so when i was working on these issues then here came general mcchrystal book and i was so thrilled because he describes exactly to be in charge of special forces in iraq to fight al qaeda and opens with a description of an attack then very quickly the people involved to figure out what happened to reconfigure and repair the damage and to go one then you say those are the special forces but he is not he is describing al qaeda it is in iraq with that kind of flexibility and adaptability was a characteristic of the al qaeda end in iraq network we could not match that we were to hierarchal so he describes the special forces to say we had a command of teams with all these different halogens groups and he figures out how to make the commitment into a team of teams with different groups each is connected to all the others but in the ways that our flexible enough so the network can be one big entity to describe the strategy of the share of consciousness or come back together in this team to act independently with the power of execution that is a strategy to use is on the battlefield and now as a Business Consultant and is a great example to think strategically about the type of network that you need for a specific task i talk about resilience now works but his is a very compelling and concrete example. What struck me with our time together in the government is in in the of military seems the experience of general mcchrystal was the rule not the exception the military has a remarkable way to action of their undertakings to insure that they draw the best lessons to make themselves more nimble. So it seems to me that comes through in your book with your strategist that too often now are stuck on one side or the other of the divide. But sometimes that Public Perception is the armed forces are those chessboard actors when in fact, there maintain those attributes and open to rethinking to be task oriented so i thought that is what came to me just that we see that time and again from the colleagues on the operation. We really did into many ways that was because the military had to make the transition from the state to state battles to the conflicts against the terrorist groups on the ground if you think of afghanistan or iraq, they were never fully fighting a state but the taliban government the ones that fell they were fighting remnants of the ground and that is right there that chessboard world up against the soviet union and the warsaw pact and also with National Armies and now that starts in vietnam but in the modern warfare to call a hybrid warfare youre not sure who you are fighting you on the networks to respond to them but you have to be perfect prepare to fight so the military has been on the from lines i have found myself frustrated with such a hierarchy in what you want to do with the government is pulled together a network of experts of what you needed to do at the National Security council that very much we were geared state to state more than the world of the last secretary clinton and president obama tried to change that tool have a special representative to business or you or whitman but they were pushing up a very set government. It seems there are embassies and pervasiveness of the unhappiness that led to the arab spring but may be a more Effective Team of teams driving the network on the ground in those countries would have had us more ahead of the curve weather fare was one of the more fundamentally changed situations that we were aware of. Is that fair . Guest i do. There were ambassadors like first in sweden then became our ambassador in britain really got this. Number of those of passengers that came from the Digital World god it they have an officer of Network Engagement the ambassador to new zealand did the same thing but your example of the middle east is well chosen to have that at the ambassador level the Foreign Service officers, many are superb but their careers coming up through the Foreign Service over 30 years. So even when they reach out to to business or Civil Society, and they themselves are diplomats i know we would have Business People going in and out at any level. We need to do that at the top level. They would bring their networks with them so why didnt we have deeper contact with the entities using religion and politics . Or those that were more sympathetic . Look at egypt we had relations with the Egyptian Government of the chessboard world but they didnt want us and we were not set up to do that. So going back to sovereignty we are sovereign we have an embassy with very formal relations trying to reach out to society often we dont have the same range of contacts as the Business People or Civil Society to have not only better information but the ability to protect American Interest so look at it from that end of those iranian elections so what was referred to at the time the movement that criticizes the conduct of the government or the outcome of the election which at the time reelected president of it in the shot shawmut in a shot but there was a debate of how deeply the United States should involve itself with the ongoing political dispute across the standard chessboard that was covered by a six variants of the revolution there with that ongoing tension and then that question is into the web of Civil Society of iran where the independent i radians were independent of the United States or anybody else were expressing frustration with their government so it seems that it revolved around what the risk was to the independents of that movement appearing to be influenced or funded by United States as we would fall into that activity. There is the argument that goes the other way but what is the right answer if you have the right balance to see our interests across the chessboard and the web . To have a different outcome . Guest that is a great example and i remember it well because president obama was reaching out to the government of iran as the start of trying to move engaged iran to say we can get anywhere if we dont talk to people build the relationship with the government in the end that was foundation for the Iranian Nuclear agreement that i think was one of the great achievements of his administration so he is reaching out to a government that is shooting its own citizens in the street. We looked like we were on the wrong side 70 denounced with the government was doing but you are absolutely right the Networks Engagement in that context but for those who mounted the green revolution, because the iranian government they say you are delegitimized the but we could do to reorganize the government but in the u. S. Government for the universities and businesses and religious groups or frankly the uh the dias perot but they are complicated because they have passionately but this is a love we funded because this goes back but the u. S. Government has enormous convening power in the ability to reach the rose society you could have supported the growth talking to youth groups in the United States or iran or businesses against Civil Societies or foundations can find that it is encouraged by the United States government so we might have had the ability to say United States people are with you we support you without coming from the Government Point of view we would be better positioned and frank leave better able to litigate the full range of people of who we are even though you dont have formal diplomatic relations but at the same time have the chessboards strategy. At the end of the day you argue your effectively practicing of the interconnected world, more interaction that it does not lessen your options. Yes. You need to practice state craft a and web craft web craft kids come from bigger the government but also it could come from the mayor or a foundation so going back to a Climate Change mayor bloomberg after he stopped to be mayor has done a lot of work during his Philanthropy Work for those who are committed to reducing Carbon Emissions in their city so now he is the global covenant of mayors on climate and energy to connect over 7,000 cities almost 1 billion people who in that covenant note that language it sounds like a treaty that overlooked on the governments can do that as regardless of donald trump polls out or not on Climate Change. Now the Obama Administration is very supportive of that but the trouble administration is less so but ultimately that unless the power of the American People do business or civic or mayors or governors to expand our interest globally in ways that our most often is incompatible with the chessboard. But overall we have enough challenges practicing this with or without a government is say that he even said pirelli that did not matter to him. Or rather did not matter to curb emissions whether President Trump that said because of the effectiveness he argued he would see that curve production in the making of the Paris Agreement that strikes me as pretty remarkable. I have a former student working on that and he backs that up that fundamentally if you look at those cities where the concentration of 6380 that is where you have the dense curve in the mission and those who are in charge of the support of mayor jess like the city says we will impose Mission Control then they should be able so adjust the issue with police or traffic or anything else because the federal government does not want to commit the nation to reducing emissions youre not imposing that outside of your city but just to take another example to say things like Global Health through the Gates Foundation has worked with pharmaceutical companies the World Health Organization and thousands of smaller nongovernmental organizations to vaccinate children all over the world. We all benefit from that because of their immunized and it is much less likely epidemics can take off so that means it involves business and government that does not depend on government. So in the book you wrote americas edge to say the emerging Network World of the 20th century exist above and below in through the state and that state with the most connections will be the central player sitting the global agenda and sustainable growth. So when you say the state with the most connections is a central player . What is the most Network State today . What do we do with the state like north korea that is arguably the least networked the the least prone to pressure even from the most important like france or china . So it is there that todd out wire keeping itself out of the network is particularly resilient . It is unjust isolated but more difficult to move. That is exactly the way we need to do think about that traditionally power is the size of the of military debt network to use those connections and that quality as well and there are multiple states that are connected there are a number of portals that have connections so with the United States today is so to protect ourselves and then how they have that of what was pointed out about this in the 19th century so those connections are huge of the valuable if you know, how to support them or cultivate them the strategy they will build the power by building trade networks and cultural the works with the physical infrastructure to do that. And then to have that strategy through the web of influence and then to talk about Building Networks so to close off the borders that is the opposite of what we need to be doing they were absolutely right looking and north korea that is the zero disconnected the one states but the flip side is if they collapsed into of very little ability with very traditional chessboard means with the use of force china or north korea there are ways to find connections that our more specific looking at where north korean leaders to close off those networks about to get the military and nuclear supplies but fundamentally to have the most connections and china has its own agenda so were watching in realtime it is interesting to see how they are working this to work aggressively with the chinese. So in scenes to me to boil down the argument that the Network States and then better able so the fact were and a current political mood where some of those actions with that posture of as a dislocation of political push back so this goes to the work at new america that what is the secret to maintain the dynamism waiting for the very powerful and arguably and understandable increase skepticism with those across the country who feel theyre not getting a fair deal. Sova merging those domestic challenges in a you argue in the book a geopolitical imperative so what is the secret there . There are a couple of levels you have to make the argument for openness that explains to americans why ultimately that is the greatest advantage