Discuss his book, two roads diverged. Im really excited to talk about it, the book talks quiteal a bit about Second Chances and i note congressman sanford was a great admirer of robert frost who is one of his classic lines two roads diverge and i took the one less traveled by prethat has made all the difference. That is what this book seems to be about. Your personal journey, your highs and lows ive always been so impressed by your ability to discuss your lows. We cannot do that without a selfdeprecating humor, ie understand the seriousness of the issues but you are also able to not think too highly ofyo herself and you can acknowledge your shortcomings in a way that speaks to humility that many of us would admire. So with that i think i would start off by asking you mark a few thoughts what made you write this book. I think the same thing thatg motivated you to speak out as you so consistently half. Fiscally a frustration with what is, of the party in politics as late. The way in which evolved if you will. A rapid departure from certain tenets that i thought were important to conservativism and the Republican Party. All of which i think is important to the National Debate and how we solve problems in this country. It is a chance to speak out one last time i find out from politics but it doesnt mean you still dont care or want a voice and the larger debate that needs to take place and had been taking place in this country. You and i are different than our colleagues you spoke up with the former president would make statements that were completely out of bounds are far beyondfe their defenses and we will basically state that we would disagree and heres why. Why do you think more of our colleagues, former colleagues knew better and good people and chose to be silent or to go will long. Two roads traveled is often times easier to go down the path most travel. Why do you think they took the easy route . I think there are three reasons. One we both know a lot of folks name the game and stay in the game. Its not about ideas and ideals they are good people but they bring elastic on some of the things that they believe relative to the core mission of stated the game. I think that is part of it. Another part of it we both know that sayingi in washington the pioneers the end up with the arrows in their back. Would an issue is hot you cannot push a politician away from the microphone or the Television Camera people on both sides all to their approach in which theyre not sure about. When you talk to Lindsey Graham and politics in South Carolina he would say hey if the cost of admission and therefore i gotta say what i gotta say but it keeps me in the game and i willing to pay the cost of admission i think its a combination off those three things but the bottom line it is disappointing in any saying the only way that evil prevails is when people dont speak up. Every semblance of how you spoke up consistently to a the beginng and our colleagues had. Not just tribal but situational. If my guy does it is fine if you guys does it is a human rights violation. And she is on the other foot. That is lethal in an open political system. Our Founding Fathers gave us a reasonbased republic and if we lose that we lose one of the major stools the holder system up and in place if its tribal and just because the guy or the gal said that must be so, that is not the way our system is supposed to work. I think you and i both came from the school. We thought it was important to be fairly consistent. Politics sometimes we have to adjust in circumstances change and we sometimes diverse where we ordinarily might be on a given policy issue. That is to be expected and politics and with the compromise and the concessions. To get to an agreement you have to bend a little bit but at the same time im just amazed how some can be so inconsistent. Taking issue like a trade i thought the cortana of the Republican Party was a legal air to open new markets and free trade was better. We want fair trade but market should be open for americas producers water and manufactures, the president came out and was. I thought this was a principal being violated and there was no action. These are the things thatt troubled me and i was called a rino. Youre more conservative and i was more moderate. I always got a kick out of that all of these people that i called the rino hunters and i would refer to as the self designated as a republican Purity Police they became loyalty to the president rather than any set of values or ideas. What is particularly crazy about that as you well know what we used to impose the quotas on candida was a National Security measure. The way in which people with a straight face said the president is really twisted the law beyond belief how will our longest term allies be the National Security threat of canada is beyond belief. Will this keep a straight face and not only be against but will look the other way if the user National Security measure against canada as a longtime ally. It is funny you say that. Im in charge of the appropriations subcommittee and the va andha related agencies which include the American Battle vitamins. Im the minority and i took time to only to visit the american side but the british and canadian cemeteries. I keep say they died alongside of us the beaches of normandy and another National Security and the fighting with us in w afghanistan and my dearest friends and partners and allies almost the beginning of thehe republican. They have been true friends. Its an egregious thing to do. By the way we exported more still to canada than they did to us. Thats an example i would get back to the book one thing i thought that was very interesting in your parting thoughts in that section in the epistles as you referred to them as. I wanted to bring it up, a memo to jim jordan. And it you write in deed over the last six years i was in congress at that i got to know people like you and i was involving after ideals were abandoned over the last few years that it could stay relevant and youth made mentioni feel i did not know you at all. That is what you said. I comment on these epistles and to refer to other meeting republicans. I thought it was interesting that the way theic organize it u get epistles to evangelical christians, trumpeters, democrats, ted cruz, josh hawley, ted gaetz, pelosi, whiting you talk a little bit about those epistles. I just think were at an important age in life to call it like you see it. Nobody has a perfect view of the truth that there is this thing called truth out there. It is become so elastic in the world of politics that it t is incredibly disturbing and offsetting for a lot of regular folks out there who are going about their lives and hoping for political process is indeed watching out for them. You take the example of jim jordan. This isis a group the Freedom Caucus of which i was a part initially very much opposed to trump but then completely the exception of last congress as well completely flipped and became subservient to him. Thats not a little bit of a rotation on an issue of new o information are based on the input from voters it is raw handwritten good and i thought it was disturbing with meadows and jordan or mulvaney from my home state. I remember mulvaney talking about if it takes shutting down the government then thats what weve got to do because this National Debt is a systemic threat to our nationalization, we gotta do whatever we can do to throw a Monkey Wrench in the equation. That is i the viewpoint. He shut it down. The problem was only nine or ten months later he is all will be under the Trump Administration and completely reverses his opinion. I got into it with the Budget Committee hearing i somehow made National News and i said this budgetet is ally because the numbers in no way added up. Heres a guy that was saying one thing about the importance a few months earlier and completely abandon that ideal months later. I think thats incredibly disturbing and it turns people off the politics and particularly part of whats true to young people to the Republican Party of late based on saying i dont always love mom or dad or whatevers going on in washington and so inconsistent with what they have been trying to teach me. I think the conservative movement suburban working moms and young people losing vital chunks to it team if you will based o on mulvaney or others saying one thing one moment in doing something up with theg opposite the next. Back to the situational nature of politics. Where one stands depends on where one sits. When we had the on the Budget Committee he had one set of policy positions and then whene he becamebe omb director quite a different set of traditions. That is what is so disturbing to some of the people and you may disagree but id be curious to get your thoughts. When you look at what happens in icongress today. Ive often felt that the center right to the centerleft of the american political spectrum is not well represented. Its underrepresented in the u. S. Congress. More in the house and the senate was certainly the house that youare very strong principal conservative and now because you spoke against the former president there people to think your moderate. My head is ready to explode. To your point im a guy who carried to life squealing pigs to the statehouse and i was governor to fork over constitutional mandates interstate. Ive been invited on the categories. I been way out there and in the age of trump i was viewed as an establishment not one rotor bridge named after me i fought the establishment but i was a twitchell part of the establishment. Heres the telling thing after my loss the next night i had a preorganized tour in the capital so i was there with folks at home giving the gun to her, who should be there but jeff flake and his wife given a gun to her as well. I dont think youve ever lost an election but if you have and they treat you like you have rigor mortis or terminal illness or somebody of closeknit family died and everybody was solicitous im so sorry, jeff and his wife grab me and said im so sorry and we got into a conversation and we really wanted to have another term in the senate but we saw the handwriting based on what happened to you and others and we didnt want that but tell me more about the election. It was really weird. People would come up and say are you for or against trump i said im neither for or against and they kept pivoting back to one question are you for or against trump. And jeff says that is so weird because thousands of miles away in arizona that was one question the people asked me are you for orme against trump. He became a test of an establishment are you part of the system are not part of the system. The Reference Point when youou look to one person is your a litmus test in the system that our Founding Fathers which is not basic things on one person. Im glad you brought up jeff and cheryl, he was my partner for years and i was going to bring them up anyway because nobody wouldve called a moderate or centrist. We served with him in the house and on the house floor and challenge every appropriation bill. He was a happy lawyer and even people who disagreed with him because he is a very good spirit about him he is strong principles and does not bend on them. He tries to be fair but the same thing with him news, centrist or rino. What did you call yourself. Always being polite. You were on the other end of the spectrum. Heres the important part to the credit over you another stood i was extreme right that was a bargaining tool for where i wanted the overall system. A little bit more right. You always compromise to the middle because thats the nature of our system into your point has gone out the window late with extreme right and extreme left in the center of the american Political Base and we do so of great, great danger. The center has been the glue that kills our system together, we have 300 plus million people. A lot of different viewpoints. That is the ability to say and over here and youre over here but at the end of the day we can get this and lets strike a deal and keep moving. Again our system does not work and look to the king or the queen or the dictator to come up with a solution if he cant negotiate to the centerso intersystem. Interestingly enough. You write to nancy pelosi and joe biden and democrats. My observation has been that the leadership in both parties in the house. I wont, so much on the senate with the house, they tend to base within the caucus or conference. Thats where theyre seen as leaders. Thats where theer numbers are. If you take the agreements of the bipartisan and protectable for example. This was not hashed out by leaders. Theas hashed out by pragmatic centrist members in the senate into a certain extent in the house that are participating the problem solvers caucus. The leaders are the ones who should be trying to help push the compromises together. I dont think youre capable of doing it. Chuck schumer has to watches left blank and aoc and Kevin Mccarthy wants to be speaker and is worried about the elements of the Freedom Caucus elements anothers he will try to take him down again as he did in 2015 when he trying to elevate the speaker. There issal no incentive and ses at times to seek the consensus or compromise. They might want to do it but there is real danger in doing it. If you leave it to the gangs or groups in the senate or the house that gives you a little bit of cover but the whole point i thought that was the leaders job. Once upon a time. When you talk about the epistles to thee democrats. Im surprised with the biden agenda. Im very surprised frankly that i thought his mandate to bring back a measure of normality and stability to the function of the white house and were generally addressed the covid crisis more thoughtfully than his predecessor did enter right the ship of state it was a call for incrementalism then it was for radical extreme transformation more resolution area change. I think the mandate has been misread by many on the democratic side by going is because they have on the spending side. Im a little bit surprised by it all and there has been more pushback i think there is more now. I agree that as part of the epistles mother to nancy with the president. If you take the case of biden people surmised based on his tenure in the senate and institutional push towards moderation that he would be moderate and people are thirsty for that were tired of the crazy. Lets just try incrementalism little steps before we start running wild in eithert direction. To your point hasnt govern as much that way as people thought he would john here in South Carolina and i think thats to his detriment. I think theres a thirst for moderate sensible and effective government out ofor the white house particularly after trump people are thirsty for that. On your point it went nontender trumps watch to be fair and you saw another 8 trillion of debt added to the National Debt and you see the financial recklessness continue under theu biden demonstration. I think these chickens will come l home to roost. There are two things that will threaten to kill office of civilization. One is too much in the way of spending i think you wrote an inch knowledge and is completely accurate they look at the last 800 years the place government and they found overwhelmingly that if they were in a civilization enter go back to the competitive further we stay in the unsustainable consumption nine times out of ten policymakers say this time it is different and of course it never was gravity always works in mouth always works i think we have a major threat that requires prudence and moderation that were not seen right now and again, part of that is to build up under trump and other republican president s if proceeding in the target right now on the democratic side if you dont want that to dropsh al your office and i fear that it may that is one to another threat rall tribalism in a democratic system that is nots designed for tribalism in one of those trucks can kill off what we seen in the american experiment and is important to lost president threaten the morays and traditions it is been a peaceful transition of power in the idea that theres truth most of science exist good on e the list we have a real electoral system, all of those things contribute to Peoples Trust in the system, you lose trust in the system again and opens up then system. Al that is a longwinded way of saying i think a little bit of moderation will go a long way right now. I couldnt agree more. You talk about your own personal journey and the challenges and successes. Its more difficult to talk about in your marriage ended in divorce and what happened when your governor can you talk about andhow that has made you more better and thoughtful reflective person want you tell us about that. I hate the witch of politics are not real some measure off authenticity is important if you try to make a case we are at a major Inflection Point in our country we have real threats in the financial side. We better turn the curve or we have really bad stuff coming away. To make that case you need a measure of credibility and part of it is two thirds of the house and the governor in a variety of other things part of a restroom i is a person too speak about this part of the reason when trump came along in 2009 in total little white lie in national headlining joke. We were under a separation of the point it is led to a personal experience an intense conversation with my boys and supporters and friends and family. I learned a lesson in its own unique journey and the significance of a little whitert lie in the importance of truth. When things came along ill give you an example. In the trump of administration i was left with no other choice to speak out i was not being a hero or afraid i had a personal experience that locked into me where i had to be particularly as it relates to the audience to sons and again, the gravity and sensitivity of the conversation overti the years. Heres a little example i was in congress the last go around. The reporter sticks a microphone in my face and he says you know the next time to release the tax returns and isaiah its a 50 year tradition republicans and democrats alike. It has littlebl to do residentil the ballot returns at that point i wasdo one of one or one of tw. Only former governor in the house one of two was not illogical that the report was asking this question. I did release my tax returns twice when i got the nomination both times for the gubernatorial one in South Carolina. If you quit doing at the president ial level both of the governors of twhirl the added piece has value and will not continuef. Trump gives the nomination the same reporterr comes back in yor left with an easy question, you know politics which is not to get the same answer youve seen before, you are not dumb but you also noted means. I was in the oval office. Im just try to be consistent thats a longwinded way of saying i think well have personal dreams. I think its important to acknowledge where you come up short. To include that in the book i think its a way of being transparent that i have come up short in life but more importantly i learned lessons with why of spoken up against trump or why speak about a Different Things and speak about now. Is very difficult and courageous most elected officials and politicians are much better than talking aboutut the things that theyre doing right in the things theyve done wrong. Thats outofthebox. I get a kick out of what you said and you give the same answer twice. In other words because of the situation change why should your response change. Before trump got the nomination and then he got the n nomination saying the report came back and asked the question again. That was part of a challenge that we all face showed microphones in our faces i was walking between the capitol hill and he said what do you think of Donald Trumps comments of venezuela is inappropriate. And they are out of bounds and unfair. Somebody says outrageous. A pick on steve king. You can download, why did you badmouth me. It is not w the other way aroun. It is about him there yelling at the firefighters rather than arsonist. I never understand and have to explain that to my t constituents why do you say these things i asked them publicly i said you electedwh me to leave not to hide reporters take a low profile, and rather not have the answer of those questions. Thats what we need more politics at least two people will trust in cynicism and all actors in the political system. It speaks to leadership your congressman in a governor yet to present proposals to the legislature and you had to help direct them and then they would shop on your proposals and sayl what they will and what they like and dislike and you have to hashe it out. That is what leadership is about i think weve lost a lot of them in recent years. My traditional notion of leadership and yours has been turned on its head in many respects. I agree jim edwards he was yearsrs ago and a great guy i remember when i got acelected governor to the other living governor i was sitting down and asking advice ive never done this but i would love to get your wisdom on any Lessons Learned that you might pass along to the news of the club. I rememberim jim edwards telling me you better start making friends now. The nature of leadership you have to make a s call and with every call that you make your good offensively and loose friends to make friends now. Instead to your point we ended up with a bunch of pastry chefs. They Wander Around the halls of congress in the districts, try this or try this and theyre trying to please which is a long way from Abraham Lincoln who made tough calls but he that is the nature of leadership you have to make the call. That is exactly right but i found our constituents can take the truth. They were not going to hide i would have town Hall Meetings and im sure you did to. We would have conversations in i would politely read about them, very nicely. I felt thatt was important letting people saying things completely false or offensive and bring it back and we gotten away from of about lcolm goodwilt. But even, during the first Government Shutdown of 2013 i can do became somewhat famous alleys momentarily for stating the obvious, and i was pretty outspoken at the time saying that this is really a fools errand, that this has no chance of success. If you like obamacare or not, the funding for obamacare, about a 70 day discretion appropriations bill, we couldnt work even if you sign into law but this is really dumb and we but other groups were and my numbers where it up and most were going down i thought it was political suicide by learn the lesson that people respond well to the truth i would have people come up to me in the Grocery Store with that would like you because you are not masked. That was high praise. [laughter] but lets get back to the book again so what was the most meaningful experience in the house during your time there . Would you feel is your proudest accomplishment . To be in a much more concrete form to accomplish the greatest accomplishments are the gubernatorial side rather than thegr congressional side the late tom coburn god rest his soul a great guy and a consistent conservative if you like him or not he knew what he was about drawing certain lines in the sand we were back in the house in the mid nineties. And we offered 100 amendments to the appropriations bill and then to reverse themselves. Ii cannot remember the issue now it has been so long. As part of contract with america the promise to cut funding staff by a quarter this is back in 1994 it has been so long and then what happened is they quietly came back around to reinsert half of the funding and we said no. We ran on contract with america we said this was our deal we can come back to say who can handle the truth we tovershot on the funding so we will add act but that would be okay but dont do the washington thingn where you quietly add a line item that nobody sees for the committee staffing and funding and not fess up to overshooting. So as an objection we offered all of the amendments to the appropriations bill like 100 and trying to put a filibuster in the house. And it was goofy things like that just to say what we were about. Again i pray someone for tom coburn for his consistency. Very strongly principled. Sold them wrong and never in doubt. But speaking of the filibuster at various points. I forgot exactly but in the book im curious of your thoughts and we are both house guys. I thought the filibuster was the last remaining with some part of bipartisan cooperation. Yes it is abused and overused but without it is a more centrist type ofac guy i always like the fact the senate could end up supporting a bill that in no could become law and gave me comfort with the republican and democratic control to send over a more hard edge to bill and then knowing that the bill they sent over will not become law. They always say the cooler heads of the senate with a compromise with the bipartisanot 60 vote. B within to pass as a bill with a strong bipartisan matter with another piece of legislation. I do worry. But fair enough in 1864 Civil Rights Act that is in spite of the filibuster. It wasnt about the rules but the people. So the absolute genius that took place in the home state j for what the Founding Fathers crafted is unbelievable. And they gave a disproportionate voice to those in the house to say if we both remember minority in the house to provide a quorum in that isab about it the crazy amount of controls on the o house side and then on the senate side. And again the genius of that is so remarkable. I would see the point of the appendages to the filibuster but the larger construct i completely agree should remain in place because thats again constant push the Founding Fathers that only power laterally that that are vertically as well is a genius and all about preventing that which we saw the last couple of years trump would have made a great dictator but thats not the american system and i dont want to dictator i dont want my boys to live off of the dictator. We better watch out the road to serfdom is a telling tale of what could go wrong in an open political system if we get the wrong ingredients in place. And so postworld war i germany im not saying trump is hitler but the forces at play we need to watch out and guard against the notion of the filibuster and the genius of the construct of the system because under financial duress when people carry around a wheelbarrow political philosophy goes out the window the strongman comes along and says i will solve these problems for you have to give it up in the process and then to chronicle hitlers rise to power if we look at germany at that time incredibly educated it was a remarkable civilization but yet going crazy on economic duress and peoples desire to seek a way out everybody hopes for santa claus to solve their problems but we better watch out for people coming along Offering Solutions to all of the problems. Because if there is a downturn of the economy which is overdue with our degree of debt you have a lethal formula for bad things to happen. Experiencing real inflation and then Interest Rates pop up because then it becomest even more real. But you reference that the Founding Fathers and i point out franklin was my favorite founding father to help create one of the great compromises from the u. S. Senate if my history is correct to come up with the idea to represent by two senators. And equal representation of virginia. And then going in on the filibuster. And those disproportionate voices to the senate because you do not want a streamlined political system as much agony as we have both been through then its an efficient voice for one person at the top. And painting a very serious subject to bring up germany and postworld war i, lets talk about what happened onth january 6 and i think we are all learning how fragile our Democratic Institutions are we saw a peaceful threat to the transfer of power to set us all back i was so upset watching those images i was on cnn talking about it. One of the comments at the time that struck me the most was from the current foreign minister what happened at the capital that day was similar from the 1933 attack and that was compelling and found that and hitler and the nazis blame some dutch communist. And then just write you can see what they are doing. But they were guilty and had blood on their hands. H but the foreign minister in 2021 to say what you saw the us capital so with that to be very careful with those types of analogies and i thought this is a much more serious moment than anybody realized. We are at a pivot point never seen the 200 plus years of republic we never before had a challenge to the peaceful transition of power and that ought to be a wakeup call for all of us we never had the election question by sliterally millions of people today by this country in the way it is now back to the heart of the notion to be an institution and i found it disturbing i was up you couldve heard a pin drop and then my time of investments there. And what was happening and where were we . Nebecause i said what we do here can you tell me about it and those windows that had plywood with a had gotten the glass right and to your point friend had called me on that day and then with the video love insanity and watching this place you spent thousands of hours of your life and said this cant be it is a real. I saw it that day at the capital we are at a Pivotal Point in this country. And acyl felt former President Trump and he didnt start the firee but he is the accelerant. Some in the media trying to hold up with the virtue and what we should aspire to. My wife is part of gideon. With the political and economic the end technological advance. Where the press has less freedoms and less independent i but its hard to maintain a democracy. Anybody can have an election but if you dont have the independent judiciary or rule of law, what are we . And that the media is the enemy of the state planting the seeds for really bad stuff or even any other disruption people get anxious because those random precincts in the country but those institutions of our country. People need to be speaking up and we need to have a robust conversation about w getting back to the center. There it is. And as a member of congress and governor and mark sanford and i hope this conversation is for people out there and love the job and love serving the public and once you have it in your blood its like you are an addict. [laughter] its hard to come out from politics. Stay well and stay healthy. Now, how about tonights program . Are you ready . Okay, great. So to many how about tonights Program Quick so you ready