American history regarding tolerance for very groups edifact refugee or because of the persecution of other places. Its also important to realize the way the narrative is kind of a master narrative in which the religious toleration is the forefront has eclipsed the more unfortunate part. This is a good one because a lot of americans think the United States was founded as far as european settlement of the puritans. But actually the europeans came here much earlier, such as a spam im english. But that narrative about freedom from persecution features so prominently because places like to celebrate themselves and americans have embraced this idea that the country should be a place of freedom. Host tommy how you came to write the book, why you think it was important to look at the narrative. Guest some of my research at 11 is focused as the nation was trying with the scripting crimes inflict it on us, that there is likely to be a backlash based on what ive known about the american has very. So a colleague and i cowrote a book called islamic phobia, making his funds the enemy. It addresses the need americans have do deal with islamic phobia. Others coming out in bringing up the issue but theres clear evidence as you read the paper and if this media that islamic phobia is still antimuslim and nonmuslim. Unfortunately, im in no basis. So what can i do to contribute to the conversation to help americans understand the better . Thought my experience talking to publics in various places in the questions people had commented just didnt understand what the fuss was about. So i thought perhaps writing a book that would include the history of the persecution of other religious groups would help nonmuslim americans empathize by realizing parts of their own path which ways they may not be familiar with the groups they might associate with. Post what you read about your background. Not a lot. Was that something . This is your area of religion. Is that some kind of realization for you . Was there any personal motivation or journey for you to say this is something thats important . Guest yes come out early. I was raised in a catholic family. Although i did next to any direct persecution, my interest in history demonstrated to me how theres been some antagonism towards catholics in america. Theres also a jewish part of my family that is sensitive to those issues as well. Particularly personally with the realization that i was carrying around some islamic phobic ideas myself. He came home to me as they relate in the book as having a conversation with my friend, steve who was writing middle Eastern Studies and the linkage to the middle east and south. I made some comment. He pulled me off in saint peter, did you hear yourself . But, he made is a stereotype about most. And he was right. But i needed him to call me out in order for me to see a first. Cannot pull it out, put it in front of me so i could get past my prejudice. So for me, im interested in the way people carry prejudices because i dont think a lot of the racism, sexism, antisemitism that people carry is always incubated with a delivered focus that people say i want to hate somebody comes on when you choose to screw. Unfortunately, we observe these things from our culture in the Broader Society and they become common sense and we dont reflect on them because theyre just part of our Background Information of the world. So this book is trying to bring in the intolerance that people have suffered, but also to study a little bit of the ways this makes sense to people at the time without saying that was okay or justified. Host and what about the title of the book is american heretics. Why did you pick that word . It feels oldfashioned. Guest well, a subpart of this book is talking about nationalism. In some ways, nationalism is the american event. The fidelity that americans are expected to demonstrate towards their flat, towards their country, to his various institutions almost raises to a religious level. The people who died for their country is fascinating given that people who are willing to die for their religion tend to be looked at Popular American media. I began to realize that it can for each of the chapters i was writing was that there are certain american norms that are just social norms like normal people do this. Normal people believe that, but also part of the nation requires in the minds of Many Americans, certain types of beliefs and practices. If you brought up against the scum you tend to be seen as antiamerican, which is a serious claim, given its post to be a very pluralistic and the welcoming environment. What does it take to be against that quiet the notion of heresy sometimes works in that way with a little bit of religious inflection there. Host lets go back to our history. The book is organized around the history of several different faith groups. You start with the puritans and quakers. Thats your first chapter. So lets not briefly about the roots of the concept of religious freedom or am. What did the founders mean by this . Guest well, of course, the founders really had two meetings. The puritans in the english settlers. For many of the latter, the puritans didnt come to the colonies in order to establish a place of religious freedom for everyone. They came primarily to establish a place of religious freedom for them. They were willing to tolerate the difference. Society of friends, members, quakers had settlements in massachusetts. They were allowed to be without much harassment. But if any of them began to publicly proclaim their religion, at various times that brought them in for serious punishment, including dust. So those founders, we think of them as founding the european settlement of america was not terribly tolerated in some places. Other places, for instance in some of the southern colonies were more tolerant. The constitutional writers determined that theres no way they were going to create a unified nation that was going to decide on one religion as a state religion the way the church of england was and is the church of england. So they put a sense of pluralism, protective pluralism into the constitution. Jefferson himself as an important part believes that citizens, in order for them to vote for a democratic government , needed to vote through their conscience and religion was a key way to develop a conscience. So freedom for him, freedom of religions is freedom of conscience, believe what you want to believe wasnt necessarily to do whatever you want to do. The notion of freedom are the only is more new one and we often get on some of the public displays. As i said, the chapters are organized lucky not intolerance of different groups. Theyre organized by quakers, Irish Catholics, native americans, june 11th, davidians. How did you pick those groups how did you recognize this . This is not a complete history. Each one of those shop is primarily books at one moment of intolerance towards that group by the majority. So each one of those chapters could really be developed much more. There are other groups that i dont weep you with at all because theyre not meant to be comprehensive here for instance, africanamerican. Dealing with the reality of the slavery trade, just to start with, is an overwhelming topic, given that the indigenous traditions have been saved africans came across the atlantic with, were usually stripped from them. The conditions of slavery didnt allow them to pursue their indigenous religious life, including islam, which was the first of all africans are most him. But not much evidence of that. There are scholars who work hard to find some of this continuing beyond the first generation. Most of that is just lost. So thats the Biggest Group that i didnt deal with. But i wanted to deal with primary sources and theres just not many primary sources from that area. So i had to leave that history out as well as the history of other groups as well. Lets go to reach of the chapters discuss trauma, good characters and action. Thats maybe go through them come a couple of them. The first one is about the quakers. One of the things interesting is you are trying to look at, and we can talk about the generalities here, but it was that prompted intolerance towards them. What are the factors that prompted the intolerance towards a different groups . In the case of the quakers come youre talking about an emphasis on conformity. Can you talk about whether that be an important issue . To the chapters about going into them in detail, but that is the reason for religious intolerance vary widely or is it something you could sum up as evidence to change or Something Like that . I dont think theres one way in which it religious intolerance has worked across history. However, there are common themes. One of the teams is a quest for maintaining a certain type of order. All societies rely on some sort of order in order to hold back chaos. For instance, the United States is on the righthand side of the road. You know, that is not people could do whatever they want. Theres not enough police to stop them from driving wherever they want on the road. We rely people to have taken in the order ingrained in them to do what to preserve safety, property, the puritans thought that the conformity to a certain type of religious norm, ethical form was going to create an moral order that was going to protect the community because they had a very strong sense that if they didnt do that as the corporate body, that they would come in for divine disapproval. It wasnt necessarily an economic issue were sent in. It was economic in the sense that the puritans worldview didnt necessarily distinguish between theology, economics. They understood they were living by gods grace and they could either take more of gods grace or lose gods grace. So they needed to work to create as moral a society as possible. So allowing for various quaker communities to access was fine within that order. But if somebody from the Quaker Community was going to start preaching and living people who are part of the puritan community away from not, at various times that was fun except able to allow. So again, over a couple centuries time, there were different ways in which the puritans, governors, politicians of the state colony responded to that. But at times it was actually the capital punishment. Postcode in your book come youre talking about it was their nature of prayer, the way in which they kind of waited for a spirit to the badness opposed by someone who spoke in the services. There is something about maintaining the liturgy, basically the structure that could be seen as so threatening. Guest that goes back to the issue of order, if you have a sense that certain people have an authority to help maintain the order and then people who are getting defined messages and speaking out for none, that really can undermine authority. When women have an equal place, that is a theme we find as well, that women play an Important Role that people in the Majority Society have of the way in which a minority might challenge the order. Is going to raise the debt and they are talking about the idea of god speaking, a revelation, we are still basically having the same discussion. Is that a word of god cant astarte spoken or can god continue to speak . I dont know if we are any different today in terms of the willingness to hear people who claim to be prophets are here from god in some different way. Guest yes, thats interesting. In some ways, what may be different as we now have secular norms instead of theological norms that govern our acceptance or rejection of the ways in which a god or goddess and speak to people in what impact it has. Yet, David Qureshi saying he has a special insight into the bible and these insights help the other members of the community understand the bible, particularly the book of revelation better and allows them to see they are living in a times in which most americans dont access. That by itself doesnt seem to be a problem. When it leads to other alamance, then the trigger of both Law Enforcement concerns as well as the popular press is concerned, certainly this idea of somebody listening to god and having his followers to things that seem to be aberrant international norms, thats dangerous and that needs to be policed and controlled. The scent of fear just really kind of amplifies. And im not way, that is a secular expert patient that okay, people have the religious and what they do in their homes. Thats fine. But it should not interfere with public life or should not threaten public life. Maybe we will skip to the chapter, which was a chapter in which you explored the idea of what makes a cold and not fiercely as you know in the book they turned out to have sort of antisocial behaviors and gunrunning and stuff like that. I thought of that chapter and in the book you were directly sort of saying, questioning the characterization of what makes a cult or ambivalent about it. He says the labor of colt bismarck to apply than it does about those it describes. Maybe we talk more about what you found in what i read adabas ambivalence is the right word. As a religious reporter i write more about contemporary stuff. This is a very a live conversation. I was thinking about the way nonreligious people talk about hearing god, through meditation or whatever. We have in your language about that. I wanted to see if you can talk about the way this relates maybe today. Just a good enduring American Fear of religion playing too much a part of some of these flags. So the allegation that was made was they had been brainwashed by david crash and why do people think, even though American Psychological association, other professional groups say theres no such thing as brainwashed. That doesnt actually occur. So how do people think about status with going on . People are believing things and doing things and was trying from Mainstream American Society in ways that seem to be irrational. The only way people would do that is if they were under the control of somebody who wants a certain type of power. That demonstrates a particular fear americans have of a loss of among other names. Thats why scholars today dont tend to use the term colt because as you said, it really says more about the people using it and what they expect proper religion to be a new religious movements tend to have these characteristics they tend to be tightknit. They often have a charismatic leader. They often make people to reject former parts of their lives should not be antisocial, but remove themselves in the mainstream of society. So one of the key parts of that is individualism. Bringing it today as you were asking, a key part of American Society is the palletization of this individual in the sense that all of our rights ultimately come to the individual and we should be as free as possible. So there are those who are not secular, but there are those who believe in religious freedoms are being trampled upon if theres any kind of restriction on them at all as though we have the right to do anything individually we want, which obviously we dont. With that in a society of various rights have to be leveraged against other rights. So i dont have a right to shout fire in a theater. I dont have that right. I freedoms of expression, but there are limits to those right. There are others who would say that is my moral my sense of moral order is being good for being brought into larger society, lets say im against abortion and im not allowed to have a society in which abortion is forbidden, then my group is being oppressed. That is a different order than what my chapters try to demonstrate, where a group is being persecuted for presumed track system and belief as opposed to the debate in the public sphere about what kind of moral order do we want . What are the limits of that . He gets easy to untangle the way you laid out. So lets just go through a lot of the action in the book is. One of the chap or is this about community. You talked about how a lot of americans at the time, not all americans, but a lot of americans are comfortable criticizing mormonism. I think he said not so much catholics and jews as protestants were. Is it about marriage . Property . Why was it so alarming to people . As opposed to some of the other groups, this is not an accurate group. These are not the issues the same issues of an outside threat coming in in the way you have about Irish Catholics. The mormons were entirely homegrown. Over just a couple of centuries, we find that the antagonisms towards a more driven by different ideas. Someone of the ideas at the time, the beginnings of mormonism is a very strong sense of republicanism that fused the United States. Say you have now a religious group that talks about establishing design on a dance to be really missing in a separatist direction. So that was various concerns about the national order. Amanda turnofthecentury were the first morning senator was elected, he wasnt allowed to take a seat for three years because the senate was investigating whether it was acceptable for had to have a seat in congress. There is a different kind of concern. At that time come americans are dealing with issues of monopolies and the power of corporations. So the Mormon Church in some ways was seen to be a monopoly is alleged to be under the control of a small group of people who could tell everybody in the organization what to do, how to vote in the lake. I think about mitt romneys campaign, we have a different concern about mormonism that comes out, particularly whether this was really a christianity. In fact, some christians use the word called to define the mormon. There are some common themes in this comment suspicions. At the same time, the roots of the day for because historically different elements feed into the suspicions. For a while, somehow mormons, like jews, like most homes, continue to be people of suspect, people who are suspicious because we know theyve been under suspicion before, so there must be something to that. As part of what hopes to maintain a prejudice. Poster what did you think about how mormonism must discuss in the last five years or so with the other things, the twilight series . Guest yeah, its fascinating because theres two levels. There is the level in which its very common. When mitt romney has the two president ial bids, clearly one coming out. Americans are figured out, what does this mean . What is this religion . Should i be concerned . Conservative voters conservative christian voters are thinking do we want to make the candidate . Is mormon after all. When hes the best contender to go against candidate barack obama, then the concern is hes better than obama, so these ideas shift. The other level like the twilight series, battle circle at the in which we have mormons increasingly influencing the public culture in ways that sometimes americans are aware of and sometimes theyre not. Host blake were . Guest battle star galactica. He included mormon theology in the show, but in ways that most americans wouldnt pick up on. Host is there something in particular . Guest one of the planets they go to is named after a place that teaches to mormon theology and the tribes in a variety of those kind of elements figurine. Host i think weve become several things. One, cautious, respect will, politically correct when we talk about these things. But its actually hard to discern i didnt cover the election, but i try to read about the religious components of it. Its hard to discern how people are motivated how they see someones religion because theyre simultaneously talk in the public sphere, but also more hesitant about how we talk. I think it was complicated. In the Irish Catholic chapter that is interesting you focus on Irish Catholic in particular. I didnt know if there was some reason why you try to keep it specific to Irish Catholic and you didnt talk so much about contemporary cat. You and the chapters same people still have the image of catholics is ritualistic and supers dishes have been governed to change. Did you pick up for some reason . Do you think catholic stoics. So they kind of skepticism today . Guest part of the plan of the book was to map out the intolerance that religious groups have suffered a mother to take certain moments to look at the details and understand. For me, looking at the discrimination before the introduction of Irish Catholics in ireland was a particularly helpful time because you have an 1834 a Convent School is burned to the ground outside of boston because of what Irish Catholics are bringing. 10 years later, you have it current with riots between database, protestant database and Irish Catholics is to have these two moments of great island but i think account the deeper issues. The irish cat in many ways face a prejudice that some other catholics did not faze. Even later, the turnofthecentury increasing notions of racism coming ahead in the United States and been quite acceptable in many ways. Irish catholics were trying to speed up a different race in many ways. That is nonsense than german cat the important part of the book is many of these issues of religious tolerance are not just about religion. If religion is never just about religion. Theres ethnicity, race, gender, class. Those issues, they figure into these episodes of intolerance. Host to take back a little bit too today, we have a group of americans. I think you can say fairly virus religious conservative catholics who feel that their places been squeezed in our society. Obviously some people would be familiar with the terms and theyre sort of a challenge to religions place in this more diverse, more secular society. What do you think about that sentence, whether it be a marriage or Health Care Reform that mandates coverage of things that some people feel opposed to . What do you think about that sentiment . Guest it demonstrates nicely the notion of norms and those who fit within the norms dont recognize. They take it for granted. Im normal. I dont think about that and im not going to think about my position of what goes into it, where does it come from . So, for a very long time, christianity, mainstream christianity has been normative society. That really doesnt get challenged until you have a catholic president or a catholic candidate for president. So i john f. Kennedy had to publicly state his church was not going to interfere with his role as elected public official was something that mainstream protestant did not have to do. Today we are facing the christian norm is increasingly challenged by the fact that more expression and are aware of the ways in which a nonquestion christian norm inherently makes unwelcome nonchristian. A lot of people feel christ has been taken out of christian. Some stores saying happy holidays instead of at christmas. So what does individuals to say happy holidays instead of Merry Christmas or tried to do is be more welcoming to muslims and atheists. Even though it may not be your christmas come you may not be christian, youre welcome here, too. I know many christians are upset by that because they feel as though that social order, which was predicated on christianity is profoundly and essentially a christian nation has been challenged. So what does that say about the whole social underpinning of this nation . But we are going through a period of adjustment, where christians took that norm for granted are having to recognize that to be welcoming, we need to dial down some of the language is not at all inhibiting their own practice. No one is being told they cant stay married. Host i know it isnt exactly the law, but i did want to ask obviously you are framing it in this way. There are specific practices that are being curtailed, that are being changed, whether that has to do with, you know, what you are required to cover under health care plans, you know, whatever businesses dont engage in samesex weddings. There are things beyond the Merry Christmas. That is the reality. I think the dominant culture is in a period of losing some stature and riots. I know youre not a legal scholar. I was wondering if you have any thought about how bad is going to go forward. We are going to be a more pluralistic country and things are changing. So whats the norm . Houri going to balance all of these things . Guest as i said before, it could never exist by themselves. I have a right to do this. What you do, but only to a certain point. I think that the shift that you have not been out has been an important shift to take notice and is one in which the society is trying to deal with the notion of pluralism and recognize what role the law has two play and protect another peoples religious practices and beliefs and norms and morals as opposed to those who might represent the majority. Host when you look at the numbers of it, you know, the vast majority people in the country believe in god in some way. Yeah, we have conversations about should you have to talk about god when you swear in court or whatever. You can see the desire to be accommodating for everybody, yet say is the majority sort of losing a piece of its culture, even if you talk about religion in a general way, without saying which god you are speaking of. Part of it that when you talk about nationalism, people describe we are going through the civil religion, where he had some general religious culture that religions are all similar. But they are distinct. I know this isnt exactly your area, but i wondering if you found these cases, how we surge certain maintain the things that make us genuinely different. What kind of turned to make our religion the same thing and theres a difference. Guest yeah, thats the struggle for maintaining the notion of nationalist exceptionalism, american exceptionalism. For so long it doesnt predicated on the notion of america being a place of religious freedom and at the normatively protestant christian. The sweeping fellowman altogether. They need to reconcile that. There are ways in which americans have to realize perhaps they are not as absolutely unique and the road they might imagine. Other nations embrace pluralism and perhaps have done more to protect religious minorities from the United States. That is not a comfortable truth for Many Americans. Host one of your areas of expertise is islam. One was about american muslims. Can you tell us a little bit about whether there is something unique about obviously 9 11, which is a unique incident in our history. Is there something particular about peoples comfort with his mom . Is it different for the people who are comfortable with their . Guest yes, i think islam is an important moment in the discussion because of the fact that it is not because of 9 11 that we have islamic phobia. It is not just because the islam and revolution and taking of american extends right back before the actual establishment of the United States. The european settlers came here with the memories of centuries of antagonism. They brought the antimuslim sentiment and part of the way to distinguish between christianity and islam and they also brought a jewish sentiment as well. That is the reason weve had so many countries. That history has embraced much better. Scholars pay much more attention to that history the ways in which that change to antisemitism. We really dont have as good of a National Understanding of history of islamic phobia, constantly think of it as a new thing. Host you were talking about not political things. Do you see this primarily theological . Be psyching about christians understanding where the antisemitism views come from. Just to the degree that christianity was building on our adding to islam makes a similar claim. I mean, when you say its really not about middle eastern politics, is a theological . Is that what youre saying . The origins were primarily theological for the same reason dante put the second to last circle of is very theological ideas. Again, with all these prejudices, they stay informed in different series of time. So they are like an underground stream that it wraps at times according to the conditions of the particular terrain they are in. And so, clearly today, part of it might be theological. A part of it is also the fact that its carried over for all the time that moves from governments are inherently bad statistic. Muslim men are barbaric and angry and violent and nonmuslim women are impressed by their husbands. So those things have really carried on for quite a while in the United States. They may have originated in theological context. The increase in the change when the womens Rights Movement occurs, we could see a different and the ways in which must one man had previously been an object of fascination by Many American ottey and says like i dream of jeannie with the tail end of that, where you have a woman who is at the behest of her master. I dream of jeannie really adds with a womens right movement in the United States begins. We dont find quite the same sort of justification of arab woman, muslim women. They get completed. So suddenly, a group of women seemed to be oppression that no pitcher had a time when american women are realizing they are also hitting the Glass Ceiling and they have restrictions because of what a teacher dead. Sufis definitely change at the time. Host that was your final chapter and has led up to the present day. So who are the heretics today . Obviously feel that way about the muslim community. I dont know if you feel that way about atheists. Its kind of a fertile time, where you have all these new religious movements coming up. Maybe more openness to the idea of god speaking. What do you think the future heretics are . Guest atheists have been seen as heretics for a long time. Polls demonstrated while americans have a certain amount towards catholics and jews and even more towards muslims, that ats used to be unacceptable, especially in terms Like National office. A poll was done that showed around two dozen or so. Very few americans could imagine electing any atheist for president. Host the number is declining. Guest the most recent iteration, suddenly atheists have shot up the numbers. And comfort level. Im not even sure that even 50 of americans are willing to elect a president. But it is far more than just a decade before. So their role is beginning to wane in some ways. Host i dont know how much youve gone into this, but the idea of persecution in the religious narrative, most major religions as part of the story, the scriptural story. Is that something how important is that . Ive always been really interested in why there is. Some religious groups, you know, want to adopt more this feeling of the vector. It seems like we are in a moment what the experience of persecution. A fascist part part of religion . Maybe you know more about this than i do. The religious history i would be able to answer that. But in terms of today, imagine the ways in which a notion of maintaining that history or situation can be helpful in part it has so many different religious communities are living cultures that have to deal with literalism. They are living with decent nationstate that need to secure the fidelity and the faithfulness of their citizens should the government first and foremost. That is a key element of nationalism that the nation comes first. So we have that in this country where if there is a war, somebody cant just say i dont want to go to war because its my religious belief. You have to demonstrate in the process for we are part of religious tradition that has issued all violent tireless, no matter what war it is. The nation has to assure that it has citizens will ultimately support it. So i think that might be one reason for his emphasis on persecution. Also, there is nothing that helps define insiders better than outsiders. Just as the United States has its own history, or particular episodes like the revolution, even not been except in in which the culture came from britain. Many religious communities undoubtedly have certain narratives of persecution in order to help to demonstrate to its members what is to be part of the religion and what defines them being different from others in demonstrate a model of those are persecution. Host you said in the beginning and are opening comments, i dont know how you phrased it, but if you compare the United States at many places in the world, it is actually a place where people come for religious freedom. I mean come image and other places in the world as well. But i just mean you obviously in the book make a case that people need to be aware of this. But on the other hand, what we are talking about our religious persecution pales in comparison today with people being killed right now. If you wanted people going down like a bad road. Look at what weve done in the past, basically. We are not about killing each other over religion in the country. This is basically what we consider oppression as not being compared to what people experience elsewhere. I dont know. Maybe returning to more nice guy looking in our past . Guest that response is not in on common one. And things in other nations are so bad. If there is some injustice, we should deal with that injustice. If we had been successful, we have in many ways because weve established and try to at least meet that bar. What the book is attempting to do is demonstrate the ways in which there are these great values, but there are also these norms that have led people to the tolerance politically or directly to certain religious groups at certain times. We need to embrace that not only because the persecution today, but also because of possible persecution. Host theres a whole section of the book that is an analysis of the intolerance. Tell me about what kind of research you have to do for that. Youre trying to describe, almost make it look a psychological condition to be intolerant and have anxiety about other communities. Host well, im trying from historical materials i was lucky not for the examples in other countries. Also, drawing on some of the responses ive had from meters to my previous work and audience members with this material publicly. As i said, often you get these people who simply dont understand how this can be considered to be intolerant. Behind them as they assert set of assumptions that dont get question. In part because were constantly validates in america as total religious freedom, then we are not going to focus on these moments of intolerant and these moments of persecution. So how would we ever get these things . Posts that dont understand why the he described as intolerant . When you broke it down, you could describe a little bit about the component of intolerance to read about in the book. Just the one element is the norm, but those folks arent normal. What does it mean to be normal . That is often something we dont question. How did the norms protect a majority from recognizing theyre not living up to the values that they themselves have. That is not an unusual thing in the United States. Most societies deal with this and it is just a healthy thing to question what makes up our norm and how do they paper over it just does. Posts go to the degree we can return to order, nationalism and having a National Identity in ants, if im reading it right, you are sort of sane would then have to perpetrate an orthodoxy or some kind of homogeneity or some name like that. So let me just mention this a little bit before. In a country that is becoming more and more pluralistic, you cant find to read a christian says. Is there an at risk of pluralism maybe thats true in india or brazil. I dont know about how their practices. Are attempting something that is not common. You have to have an orthodoxy for national . Are you essentially they were talking about disbelieves challenging the idea of the nationstate. Can you have the nation without some shared religious values or descriptions are that kind of thing . Guest the challenge is to have a nation, which allows for citizens to have certain freedom. But the same time, not to rub against one another in ways that are going to cause conflict. If my definition of what i should do religiously about something that will enjoy their neighbor, where to buy rates begin . Would say i have a curse base that is very noisy at certain times of the week. Are my neighbors allowed to stop me from being noise . Theres no right or wrong answer. There has to be some deliberation on how to make that work. One of the ways in which weve made this very Pluralistic Society that has worked ideally is to have a form of secularism, which i described as cultural secularist and in many parts of the country in which folks try not to say deliberately promote their religious identity in public. They might have a Bumper Sticker on their car. They might have a cross or christian man around their neck. But they kind of play it down and each others face. What happens when you have religious group and the followers should be going doortodoor in introducing religion to people. Some people find that to be offensive. They dont want people coming to their door and talking to them about religion. How do you deal with that . What kind of social norms do you put in place that allow people the ability to express religious identity in other people the right that they dont have somebody questioning their religion. Its a complicated mix. Postcode you wouldve been an interesting visitor at the thanksgiving table. Anyway, thank you very much for talking with me today. Guest thank you. Host a longtime familiar faces on your screen here on tv. Former new mexico governor bill richardson, former congressman and now authors have to. Howd have three sub three. How did you come up with a title . North koreans, saddam hussein, qubit and the sudanese, people of the u. S. Doesnt get along with. I relate to stories that these negotiations, most of them successful on how you deal with a shark, with the bad guy in how that leads to negotiations at home with