Transcripts For CSPAN2 After Words 20131027

The former editoratlarge at canadas mclain magazine talks about the gender gap between women and the risk of drinking. This program is about an hour. Host hi ann. How are you . Guest its so nice to be here. Host i am excited to talk to about this new book called drink very intriguing and very provocative and like i said it are minded me up when i was working in treatment, about the relationship with alcohol and women and i guess one of the questions i wanted to ask you right off is why is the subject seen as a crisis thats important for you to get the message out . Guest we are seeing a global problem, a closing of the gender gap between men and women. Traditionally we have always known that men drink more than women do but whats been happening recently is men have been declining a been declining a little bit in risky drinking and women are not at all. This is global. The more developed the country the richer the country the smaller the gap between men and womens consumption. Places like written friends and where we are seeing a parity where young girls in their 20s are are dying of endstage Liver Disease which is classically seen as an old man disease. So this is a Health Epidemic and crisis something that we need to Pay Attention to and open up a dialogue about our favorite drug because it is our favorite drug. Its legal and host exactly. Can you talk a bit about the driving force for you in writing drink . Guest of the driving force for me is decades old. I grew up with an alcoholic mother who was cross addicted to valium much like a lot of women were in the 60s and the 70s depending on mothers little helper. She was a stayathome mom and was a poster girl for that era. I have always been interested in why she drank the way she drank and the one thing i said to myself is i never will. In fact in my 50s i fell into really bad behavior with alcohol i had it bad patch in my own life and i would say i was a poster girl for this era. I am welleducated, highly professional woman and found myself drinking not two glasses of wine or three glasses of wine before, five and six. I slipped into some bad behavior caught myself quickly and went into rehab. Host so in that, what was that like for you that realization if you can maybe talk about that . Guest it was probably the worst thing ive ever gone through in the sense that i was in shame. I was deeply humiliated by my behavior. I didnt miss work. I didnt close up or do any of the above but they did blackout. Each night before he went to sleep and it was something that i said i will get a handle on it. I have a favorite cousin killed by a drunk driver and i thought i have lost so much to alcohol in my childhood and now my cousin. I will just quit, and i couldnt and they knew i was addicted. I found myself looking for help. It was confounding. It was confounding and also my behavior didnt look like my mother so i thought i can possibly be alcoholic. Host there is an edge they learned as a kid that is like mirror mirror on the wall i am my mother after all. Guest you are right. Host do you think that what you have experienced is pretty common with other women . Guest i know that the behavior to the extreme behavior that i was involved in is that the far end of the spectrum and i became addicted. I think a lot of women the larger group of women are not addicted. Its only 2. 5 depending on the country how many are actually out the holick that there a lot of women involved in risky behavior, tinged drinking. The centers for Disease Control came out in january and warned about the fact that this was in epidemic portions and that is the thing we dont focus on in our culture. We focus on the alcoholic or the drunk driver but we dont look at the behavior. For women is only nine drinks a week in terms of drinking guidelines. Thats not a lot to. That means taking nights off from drinking and a lot of people would find that something they couldnt manage. Host what about four young girls . Do they fall into the same range as that . When you look at the age differences between young women and say women our age, finding the difficulty and are there differences amongst the age groups for women in general . Guest the young generation of women has been dashed by the alcohol industry and by that i mean in the mid1990s there was the invention of those sweet prepackaged drinks that are basically started drinks, tales with training wheels to get people interested in drinking and move them away from beer because young women you usually dont like the taste of beer. What happens is they mature into into so one campuses you have got young men and young women playing drinking games but the young guys play it with beer. The woman twothirds his body sizes playing it with shots. Alcohol is the number one date rape drugs so we are seeing a different behavior on the part of this generation doesnt drink and drive. Before they go out to a bar because its expensive they have alcohol in their dorms. They have alcohol and they drink ahead of the event which means once they get to the event they are often already inebriated. Its very risky behavior. Host that also puts them at risk for other types of behaviors. Guest many other types of behaviors. You see highprofile accidents, falls certainly sexual behavior. Absolutely a Broad Spectrum and not sons and so on and so forth. But whats fascinating right now is that young women used to slow down. After University College they would slow down. The men didnt always put the young women did. They are not doing that now. Host why do you think that is . Guest i think women are getting a very complex message. We are in the middle of a sociological revolution. Young women are told that they have to have an great career and they have to be great mothers. They have to be thin and goodlooking. They have to manage a house well and there is a sense of entitlement. I can do everything that a young man does and that includes having a glass of wine or two after work conflict drinking to wind down and women tend to medicate depression and anxiety and loneliness. I think there is a lot of anxiety in this generation in terms of how do i manage it all . When we look at who is drinking the most, we are seeing the professional educated women and i dont think this is what Gloria Steinem had in mind when she talked about being equal. Host the sense is that the expectations that not only society puts on women but what we take on ourselves is what plays a role. Guest were a eighth. I beg the question whether its the modern woman steroid. I drank to stay awake and i drank to sleep and stay awake at a party. I used alcohol. I think if you are relaxing and rewarding yourself you are numbing yourself. Host okay. As i was reading through drink one of the things that came to mind for me, were there times when you found yourself kind of hesitating to move forward in writing and putting words on paper about your experience . Guest yes. This was a huge decision. This book was in some ways from the huge series that i did in canadas largest newspaper. It was a serious, 14 part series on women and alcohol. At the time my editor said to me calm cut how do you feel about telling your own story . She knew i had a history without the hall abuse and i said im beginning to think maybe i should tell it. She said do you have to work again . She said the stigma is too great i really positive for two years before i decided to write this book. It was a huge decision. Once i made the decision, once i put pen to paper it came out very quickly. But i was worried about how i would be seen. You know there is this saying that we have been a public lives and we have private lives and we have secret lives and it was a relief to tell the secret. Host okay because as they say secrets keep you safe. Guest i found this incredibly cathartic and a terrific relief to get this out. Host very good. How do you see womens drinking patterns different from men . Guest there is a lot of research. When a man gets into trouble with alcohol he tends to go to the bar or the pub and hangs out with his friends, maybe not great friends and thats the pattern. A woman tends to drink alone, to isolate tingnom comps at complicated feelings around depression and anxiety. Thats the female model so when a woman goes to treatment its important as we know now for her to have a hard look at things. It can be hard when you get sober as i did and find the things that you are numbing or trying to numb like depression are medicated so its really important when you go to treatment or you were dealing with sobriety that you recognize that you are going to have a whole host of emotions that you have to address. I medicated or medicated in a different way and this is progress because they used to believe that when he went to treatment you had to be sober for two years before you dealt with the underlying causes. Now for women in treatment its very difficult because getting to treatment is the issue. Getting to treatment especially if you have young children, babies. We have seen some fabulous entities across north america that appreciate what Young Mothers have to deal with when they are trying to get sober but they are few and far between and too often it depends on who you know, whether you have enough money, where where you live where there you will get the right kind of treatment. Host why do you think that is . Guest oh my think its obvious. I think our values as a society round out the hall but very fuzzy. I dont think we have decided what we want. We all think if im sophisticated i know my winds and if im an adult i should know how to handle my liquor. If im drinking a little too much maybe im just trying to act like the french or the spanish or the italian. It isnt me that has a problem. Its that rare drinking drivers. We dont look at ourselves because we dont want to. This is something we used to relax. We love alcohol. Its very cheap in our culture. Sometimes in a corner store or gas station its cheaper than milk and cheaper than orange juice. We have fuzzy values and i think we havent really done well in mental health. We have done well in understanding depression. We havent done well at all in understanding addiction. Host okay. Another question compact as i was reading the book is that your thoughts of support groups such as aa versus women of sobriety and whether or not you think there are some differences between support groups that are geared mainly towards men as opposed to those geared towards women. Guest a great question. Women for sobriety is a group that was developed some time ago and i really admired it. It was a reaction in part against the word powerlessness, which is an aa term and women were having trouble with some of the language of the big book of aa. The problem with women for sobriety is that it is very hard if you live in a small town arent even were i live in the big city to find women for sobriety groups. You can start your own but its difficult. I think its interesting the face of aa has really changed. The face of aa has become much more female and much younger and the Younger Generation there is pride in being sober. Theres a lot of shame in my generation, custody come up with Younger Generation is pretty proud of rocking sobriety. Host thats interesting that you say that. Do you think that the overall public sees that same concept as young individuals and aa . Guest no. I think its totally hidden. I think the anonymity piece peace has been made sure its kept hidden and im a big fan of something called voices of recovery based in washington, very very Strong Organization and im part of a movement in canada just established faces and voices of canada. We tell our stories. I tell people that i am five years without wine, five years without a drink. I dont need to break my anonymity and tell you how i keep sober but i need to tell you that im sober and this is what it looks like. I am in recovery. Host thats great. Are you familiar with the concept of systems of care . Guest i am not. Host its a philosophy coined by william white. Guest oh yes. Host taking a look at how to build a community of recovery you know and i was wondering in your book reading about aa and thinking about the differences for women. I remembered while working in a Treatment Facility that a lot of times they would go initially but then they would fall out because the relationship piece that women generally have to deal with or not generally but have to deal with as they are moving to recovery and i was wondering whether not if you are familiar with the brick obery and assistance of care concept as well . Guest you know thats so funny. That just came across my radar this week. I dont know if you have seen anonymous people. Fabulous and that was the trigger for me to understand who it was. Host yes, a good. Thats good. I wonder if you could maybe talk a little bit about what you see as it relates who are there differences in the isolation for women . We know there differences in isolation for women when they are actively drinking. What about when they get into recovery . Are there similarities with the whole issue as they move into recovery . Guest i think in recovery you have to be really careful of isolation. You have to be really careful about yourself care. I think for women and thats why i am such a fan of women for sobriety. There is a focus on the selfcare peace. There is a focus on respecting yourself and looking after yourself. I think i cant speak for being a man in recovery but i know when im involved with my friends who are also sober this is something we focus on. Making sure you dont get too lonely or too tired is very important. What i found in sobriety was everything was new. It wasnt just the fact that it was christmas or new years or birthday spot absolutely everything in terms of my human relationships. I live much more consciously and i live much more happily now. Host i know that one of the things that you referred to in drinking by women is a cultural thing. I wondered if maybe you could speak a little bit about it. What do you mean by that . Guest the phenomenon of women drinking is i think very much a piece of entitlement. Our sense of entitlement. We are allowed to. Host i have heard that before. Guest we should be able to because men can so be canned. Certainly the Younger Generation has that feeling. Going toetotoe with men is a dangerous thing. 15 of rest cancer cases are related to alcohol. Demographically we are equal but metabolically and hormonally we are not and when it comes to alcohol. What i find is alcohol the alcohol industry behaving like it used to . Yes. Focused on women. We are feminized drinking culture with girls night out. This is focused a totally feminized drinking culture. Did it all start with Terry Bradshaw when she was drinking cosmopolitans and sex in the city . Know but did she add add to its . Yes she did. We have a female drinking culture now and i think its incumbent upon us to make sure that young women are market savvy. They understand they are being targeted and understand the alcohol product has become a person. Its tweeting come its tweeting, is on facebook. Its trying to get u. S. Part of the community smirnov or whatever the alcohol is sent you are the target. That is like the tobacco industry. Host i thought when i read that in your book i thought to shave because there is a strong analogy between the two. Along with that having been i attended a tobacco conference and in one of the sessions i remember we had to to do with the Marketing Strategy and how they were really focused on certain groups of people. Based off of what you are saying i see the same thing for women with the alcohol industry really targeting in on women. Not only targeting in on women but do you see them targeting in on more of a specific Racial Ethnic Group as well to max . Guest you do see a huge vulnerability if you look at the data coming out of colleges that certain ethnic groups are actually drinking at a higher rate than others. So when you look at the upswing in young women, you see that women from different races are having more trouble. Its a complex story. Its the number one predictor of whether you will have trouble with alcohol is childhood sexual abuse. Thats the number one are. Its very much related to trauma and therefore, related rehab and treatment is really important. We have seen a wonderful upswing in the understanding that trauma does relate to alcohol abuse. This is the easiest and most accessible drug and people do medicaid with it and we do it all the time. Host out one point in time it used to be the mindset for providers to not even address that but now that has shifted which im glad to see to address that. But what is the risk of women to become retraumatized you know if they are in treatment and talking about the trauma that they have experienced . Guest thats really an important question because you have to be very very savvy as a treatment provider to make sure you dont retraumatized a person. I for instance went to rehab and was diagnosed with ptsd. Posttraumatic stress syndrome and i had to really take my time with the trauma that i was dealing with. I had to take my time and note that this was a multiyear issue that i had to address, that i couldnt do it overnight. You dont want to reach traumatized person. But speaking of free trauma to his asian, one of the problems is young women will have a trauma in her lifetime could drink too much, find themselves in a compromising position sexually and be retraumatized that way. Women have to keep themselves safe. There is a real connection with as i said date rape with abuse, with violence, being the victim of partner violence. It puts one in a really vulnerable place to have too much to drink. There many reasons to be cognizant of what you are putting down your goal it. Host it exactly. Can you speak to and you alluded to it a little bit day for starting their faces and voices of recovery in canada about the role of stigma and addressing it and why thats so important and if you think there are gender differences in how the role of stigma is addressed . Guest yes. I think you can have too much to drink and be seen as a good old guy. You are just a terrific guy. A woman, you dont lose your masculinity. A woman drinks too much and see us cnas lobby. She is not seen as feminine. We are much harder and women who drink too much and so i think faces and places of recovery canada and it named aside United States following the Parent Organization in the United States. That notion is we have known for more than 20 years that addiction is a disease. Its a complex disease like diabetes. We have known that but we dont as a culture see it. We see it as a moral failing and definitely a mother who drinks is way down on the totem pole of who you can expect an admiring to an admiring the weekend into the complex issue of so there is the credit pecking order and stigma is enormous. Its something we have to have a more open dialogue about and people in recovery who have as i do five years clean and sober and other standards teen or 20, we have to pay so much attention as a person who has spent 30 years in the media we pay so much attention to people like Charlie Sheen or robert downey, jr. Or Whitney Houston but when they get clean and sober we dont focus very much on them. We are not as interested as when the antics stop. Lindsay lohan, we are fascinated by the misbehavior and as i say its very much like the issue with mental health. We need to profoundly understand whats going on. If we need to pay more attention host do you think that society thrives off of chaos and chaos and other individuals lives . Guest theres an interest in what somebody else selfdestructs no doubt about it and enough compelling but its tragic. We have to have a lot more compassion. Compassionate society in terms of appreciating. We cant appreciate the person who is born with depression or suffers from diabetes that we are not very sympathetic or apathetic when someone has an addiction issue. Host from your yes, what would be a Public Health response to this issue . Guest 12 there is no doubt in my mind that pricing is a huge issue. If you look at the hard data on the costs of alcohol it has become cheaper and cheaper and cheaper in recent years. As i was saying earlier often in a gas station and i would argue even in the gas station but often its cheaper than the milk or the orange juice and thats just wrong. There is very clear data that says if you add a 10 increase to that costs that you would see a 9 drop in terms of hospital admissions for emergencies for instance around alcohol. The cost is just too overly accessible. Its overly cheap and we are not connecting the dots. What we are doing for instance in canada in certain regions is we are starting to produce report cards. We know that alcohol produces a lot of tax revenue for the government but what we are doing is connecting the dots on those emergency room admissions so we can understand that its hugely costly. I think we should take a hard look at marketing. I dont think there should be the marketing allowed that there is especially in social media which is targeting youth. I think that is definitely wrong. On the way of we have seen health care cuts. So health and children and getting away from that Second Generation of problems is something that i think should be very high on theet totem pole of needs and importance. So were not really understanding how if we dont understand what the diseases, we certainly dont unthat its not one of those things that you come in and get fixed for in 30 days and you walk away and youre fine. If you have cancer or Breast Cancer you are told what the after care is like. You dont go in for a 30 day program. Ive been there and come to this. You essentially are seen as fine when you leave. Followup is key. Taking care of yourself is key. So i dont think we have a full understanding what needs to be done when this product is so cheap. So assessable, taxed so badly in the united. Taxed terribly. And privatize. We had a real problem. Host so its like getting to the place where theres parenting . Guest right. Host between the particular disease as well as other diseases. Guest absolutely. Host exactly. Host i think you touched on this before, but if theres anything else you want to talk about the similarities that would tobacco policy and what similar strategies could be mirror remitted to writteny drinking behavior. That are related to alcohol. We have not had a public dialogue about that. We dont appreciate at all there are some down sides to drinking. We have typically sought drinking and driving and the liver and throat. Other than that we dont appreciate that all the float cancers, the cool low cancer that are related to drink we dont appreciate it. Here is a big one. People die typically 20 years younger than smoking. Thats a huge one. And women die faster than men from drinking. So were not having a Public Health conversation the way we just start one on tobacco years ago. We know the trob with prans fat transfat and tanning beds. Not this. We know more about gluten than alcohol. [laughter] host or want to know, maybe. Or very good point. I think that is a key issue. I think just like with tbask, tobacco keep it simple. If you keep it you will, able to turn around many of the problems that are major issue. You see washington state, for instance, and privatizing and putting alcohol in costcos and the huge complexity of what is unfolding in that state. You see with interest in the United States is many what policy changes come about and how to affects people. But, no, theres no doubt that the United States is right. You have countries like scotland are looking at minimum pricing, which is fabulous. They have so people thats a whole another subject. So there are many policy wizs in this country, some of the best research in the world that gap between what we know and dont know is enormous. Host would you say its more so here than other countries . Guest absolutely more so. Alcohol is hugely cheap in this country. In canada, we have monopoly, liquor monopoly. A fairly firm hand on pricing. But here all bets are offer. All bluffs are off. And i come to regularly to an alcohol poll call whatever. Its a terrific conference and global. But in north america, we have some of the best brains working on the issues, and yet the publics appetite for understanding this is small. [laughter] host it sounds like i hear you say theres a great deal of environmental strategies that could be utilized but maybe are not necessarily capitalized on . Guest exactly. Host okay. Okay. What sort of messages can be incorporated across the lifespan for females that could reach about the impact of risky drinking . Guest well, i think in canada we had lower drinking guidelines come up in 2011. With the nine drinks per week there was a lot of pushback in the women i know. Host is that right . Guest nine drinks a week . Are you kidding me. What if i have four or five on on a saturday night and the same on friday night. Im already over the limit. So i think were in the middle of an educational uptick. Where we have to just start have the conversations, start to know what is safe, but you see, for instance, in the big study out of harvard recently a huge problem with how much young women are bing drinking at the College Campus level versus how much men are drinking. That old frat boy stereo type is out the window. John would be female if he was live today. [laughter] host okay. I noticed i was reading your bio online. One of the things i wanted to ask you about the National Round table on girls and alcohol to provide you an opportunity to talk about that effort, the purpose of it, and where what is your vision for it. Guest open the dialogue about the policy what does marketing look like . What does good marketing awareness look like . How do you get it in the school . How do they reach 15yearold girls who are the how do you look at assessability. We are trying build awareness on girl the and women. Understanding that girls and women are far more vulnerable toward alcohol abuse than men. I like to tell a story. Theres a frog pond, and a lot of the frogs are warts. Do you send in the surgeons and the fertility experts . Or say maybe theres something in the water. The National Round table is saying theres something in the water. Our culture has got it wrong. Lets open up the dialogue and get it right. So with that in the face of the voices and recovery, im pretty busy. Host wonderful. We have a few minutes left. I wondered if there was anything else you would like that say about the issue about your book, which i love the tight the intimate relationship between women and alcohol. Thats what it is. Its a relationship whether they like it or not. Grois guest yes. I dont mean to be a killjoy. I have certainly enjoyed my share of alcohol in my life. But one of the things that really alarms me other than the young data about young women, really alarmed me was the fact that the more professional, more educate you were, more likely you were going get in to trouble with alcohol. In fact, your one productive thing would be a blue collar job. Thats a scary fact. It is scary as wiment women become more educated, as women are occupying the lions share of the post secretary institutions across north america and elsewhere. What is happening to us . What is happening to us we think we have to numb and vacate without alcohol . Its more than celebration. Something is going really wrong. And the market there is serve us. The drinking culture is alive and well. I want to put up my hand and say lets have a hard look what is going on. Now your personal vulnerabilities. I should have known with two alcohol parents i was pretty vulnerable. No, you know, whether youre vulnerable to Breast Cancer, you should really know what youre putting down your throat, and take hard look at just like with everything else. Are you safe . Are you healthy . Is it okay for you . If it is, wonderful. Host very good. Very good. I like the bottle print. Guest they did a wonderful job. Host they did. Guest harpers colins has been terrific. I think that this kind of bring us to a conclusion. I wanted to say thank you. That i did enjoy, you know, having this conversation with you. I think that bring up a very alarming issue that doesnt get to the table very much. Except i know with the the profession i worked in this field, its always there. Guest thank you. Thank you very much. That was after words booktv Signature Program in which authors of the latest nonfiction books are interviewed by journalists, Public Policy makers, legislators and others familiar with their terrible. After words airs every weekend on booktv. You can also watch it online. Go booktv. Org and click on after words in the booktv series and topics list on the upper right side of the page. From the 13th annual National Book festival on the National Wall in washington, d. C. , an interview and National Viewer phone calls with steve. He discusses his book through the pearl this is about 20 minutes. On our warm, and our airconditioned cspan bus is author steve vogel. Who has written the book. Six weeks that saved the nation. Steve, what was the war of 1812 about . You know, it was Different Things to different people. Fundamentally the United States and Great Britain were fighting for control of the continent. There were issues that were raised the Great Britain, of course, was in amy of an enormous struggle with napoleon, they were stopping american ships at sea because they needed to impress sailors off our ships in order to man navy ships. You had a british restrictions on american trade with europe, an you had in america there was just this beginnings of west ward and matt maybe north ward. To were some of the fundamental tensions behind the war of 1812. Host how did it get started . Guest well, we often forget it was the United States declaring war on Great Britain and not the other way around. We sometimes United States tend think that Great Britain was interested in recreating the colonies. Was really americans exasperation with Great Britains refusal to really honor american sovereignty. Great britain, because of the struggle with france was was quite often willing to ignore it. And president James Madison had come to the belief that if not truly an independent nation. How long did it last . The war of 1812 was a poor name for a war. It lasted nearly three years. The event i write about attacking washington and baltimore. And the war continued on through early 1815. Host steve, before we get to the six weeks. Behalf the conclusion of the war . Guest the treaty was included in negotiations. Christmas eve of 1814. And a lot of ways, the treaty, which wasnt ratified until a few months later. The treaty reasserted status quo. So a lot of people think the war of 1812 didnt really settle anything. But it actually settled quite a bit in term of establishing that canada would remain, that the time, part of Great Britain, but for the future independence. And the United States was given more or less a green light for west ward expansion. Steve vogel is our guest. Were talking about the war of 1812. A National Reporter with the washington post. And written a book called pentagon 2025853890. If you live in the mountain and pacific time zones. Steve vogel, what are the six weeks you concentrate on new through the perilous fight . Its a period of august and september of 1814 when British Army Troops arrive from europe. They were sent as reinforcement to British Royal Navy Squadron which was doing quite a bit of damage in the chesapeake pay for the better part of the year. But in august these reinforcement arrived, and over the course of the next six weeks, they would attack evade land in maryland, attack and capture the capitol of the United States, and then launch ab attack on baltimore, at the time the Third Largest city in the nation. And it was a very precarious moment in American History where the outcome of the war and really how did the british get to the white house . How is it possible they managed to make it to washington and able to burn the white house . Guest it was a mixture of unbelievable american incompetence, really some bold leadership on the part of the british commanders. Very veteranaccomplished troops they had. To fight. It was, you know, part was almost just a disbelief that this relatively small British Force would be able to capture the capitol of the united when they were really so far from really any major support. They were operating off the ships. They would to march 60 miles inland and quite exposed. Much of the military was on the canadian frontier engaging in attacks on canada. And the militia left behind in virginia and maryland werent really that well trained or equipped to stand up to veteran British Forces attacking washington. So poor leadership and a little bit of luck too on the part of the british. One of the enduring controversy for 1812 is the surrender of detroit and the behavior of william hull during the time. Ive read a summary of the courtmartial in the library at the university of michigan, they describe hull at the time of the british partially having a mental break down. Hes shoving wad after wad of tobacco in his mouth. Hes oblivious to everything going on behind him. He unexpectly surrenders the fort. I also found another document that he suffered a stroke between the revolutionary war and the war of 1812. He was a hero of the revolutionary war. His brother was the dane of the institution, he a Sterling Record until detroit. I just would like to know your views on him and courtmartial results that happened after words. Thank you very much. Guest well, hull was i think essentially having a nervous breakdown. He really wasnt expecting the situation he was facing. He lost the nerve he, you know, there are different account as to how much responsibility he deserves for that disaster. I think he deserves quite a bit. There was a big push for him to be executed actually, it doesnt thawrt which a major victory at sea. They more or less just cashiered him. But this my book is focusing more on what is going on in the chesapeake in the last six months of the war. Host steve, if the outcome of this war had been different, would the history of the country have been different . Guest i think that is certainly possible. We the peace treaty term that Great Britain was nucially proposing at the time when they seem to be in a position to end the war on british terms. Including turning over a large soil and Water Assessment tool of american territory and what was then the northwest today including much of indiana, michigan, part of ohio. This would have been become a bufferrer state that we turned over to the native american tribes. And essentially, Great Britain was interested in dominating the great lakes we would have seen a weakened they wouldnt have had the opportunity expand to the west and the militarily quite weak. I think a lot was at stake for the United States in this early point in its history. Host steve, in mt. Olive, north carolina. Youre on booktv in cspan two. Caller thank you for taking my call. I would like to ask a question about Thomas Jeffersons position on the war of 1812. He had the embargo which was unpopular. Trying to keep america from being involved in the that poll began wars that were going on. The administration and the embargo was listed america. Almost dragged to the war. Do you think jefferson thought the war was a better alternative than the embargo . What was jeffersons position on the war . And as when the United States declares war, jefferson is supportive and declares that the capture of quebec would be the matter of mere marching a couple of american regimens. So he thought that it made strategic sense the united plan was to take canadian territory and more or less use it as a bargaining chip to force Great Britain to respect american sovereignty. Host knick in dallas, texas. Were talking about the war of 1812. Caller thank you for taking my call. My question is about andrew jackson. I know, he became a military hero at the battle of or shoe bend in new orleans, but ive read that the American Forces he commanded were really fairly pathetic a rag tag force of farmers, pirates, indians and all kinds. Im wondering for thats true. And if you could comment on that. Thank you. Guest well, like the forces that were differenting washington and baltimore, we were primarily relying on militia troops. A lot of forces that jackson had in new orleans were militia, you know, with the mixture, as you mentioned, of everything from water men and buy you buy rates. Not necessarily they werent good fighter. Jackson was a very good leader. He also, unlike the commanders who were defending washington, he established a very strong line that protected new orleans. Where as in washington you had pretty capable troops. Some of the militia troops, particularly the maryland, which was unit in the area were fighting. They were poorly lead. They were rushed to the position because the americans just had not properly anticipated the british avenue of attack on washington. And he was fighting the same force that the united was fighting in baltimore and washington. In other words, the same British Force that attacks captures washington and then attacks baltimore goes down subsequently take part in the attack on new orleans. One of the andrew jackson. David . Arlington virginia in the suburb s youre on with steve. Caller hi. I have two questions. Do we [inaudible] the war of 1812 and president madison in particular to be [inaudible] and masses be outworked. And wartime commander in chief, and im including vietnam in this. Also, im just curious about what role the French Canadians played in the war of 1812. Were they the two interest groups. Host thank you, david. Guest well in term of whether it was the worse performance, its hard to make an overall assessment because it also solves some brim i cant moments in American Military history. Some of the naval battles. On lake erie. Some of the single ship victory of the uss constitution. The deference of baltimore very effective performance by maryland militia together with the u. S. Army gareson at fort mchenry. [inaudible] do your second question, the french canadian, one of the things that jefferson and madison was that the because the french hated the british so much. They assumed they attacked quebec the drench there would rally to their side. That didnt happen. It turns out when you invade someones country, they dont like it