Transcripts For CSPAN2 After 20240703

With lauren grush, a new author of a recently released book called the six the untold story of americas first women astronauts. Lauren, welcome. Its great to talk to you. Its great to talk to you, too. I love our our roles are reversed this time. Normally, im the one interviewing you. Thats. I have been interviewed by you many times. So well feel like. Im sure i. Wonderful conversation, but youre more asking the questions and im probably more comfortable answering them. Im sure im really interested in this discussion because as i have been and involved in nasa nasa as have you for a long time, i knew many of these original six women. All, all. But judy and i just say right off, i have an advance copy here of the book. I really enjoyed reading this book. I have known some of the history, but the way its been presented, i think people will find fascinating. And im interested in getting some of the back story and the highlights teased out in this conversation. So ill start right off by. Just, just asking you and i could ask this a lot about a book i came out with last year. What motivated you to write this book that the timing, the what is it that you felt the message was right to now get out about about these women today . Yeah. So my my kind of go to is, you know, obviously ive been reporting on space for gosh, nearly a decade now. And its, you know, the space reporting field, its still pretty male dominated industry. You know, as ive continue to in this profession, ive met a lot of great women journalists and theyre theyre absolutely fantastic. And i find myself really drawn to and we kind of created this own little cohort within the space reporting world sometimes, and thats been really special to me. But it also kind of dictates, know what stories im drawn to in space also. The space industry is still quite male dominated and so its always been very important to me to try and Center Womens voices in the space field as much as i can. And so that really kind of helped me look back. And you know, when i when i think about women in this industry, you know, i kind of was drawn to the women who came first, you know, who were the first female space reporters in in this field. And then also who are the first women and in the space industry. And that ultimately led me to this group of six women. And i think i was like most probably most people in the public. You know, i had known sally ride, obviously, because she was the First American woman in space, but i really didnt have much a sense of who the other five women were. And when i learned more about them and just how easily it could have gone to say judy resnick or anna fisher, any of the other six women i was, you know, very fascinated by their stories. And a lot of what ifs kept popping into my head of thinking, you know, oh, what if it had been, you know, somebody else would if it hadnt been sally, and how that would have changed the history books. And so, you know, it really was a way me to learn more about them as it as it was to tell their story to everyone else. Yeah, that is a fascinating part of the book that i do want to dig into because the selection of sally to be first is something you, i think, reveal some things that have not been talked about before. Some of your sources, the person who has done astronaut selections, george abbey, as you describe him well, in the book, and ive known him well over the years, its always been shrouded in mystery. So even every one of the sex and how theyre selected, you go into and i and want to be able to let you tell some of those stories. For me, i think its also interesting because right now nasa has an nounced a woman is going to be the next would i among the next crew that will be two people to go to the moon and walk on the moon and lots of people speculating about that selection and really think some of what you uncovered here can can help reveal that. So i might we might dig into that if we have time. Oh, i was just going to say, the Selection Process was really the most fascinating for me because i think i had built it up in my head as a go at being this one way and then, you know, revealing it was was a whole different scenario. Yeah. Well, lets talk about it. I, i think who the the group of women as we get into each of them, we the very last to fly of the six Shannon Lucid did, as you point out, end up being the astronaut of the six who stayed the longest at the agency, who flew by far the most flights and hours, doubling all the others combined. Its really the situation of, you know, the tortoise, slow and steady wins the race because her first flight was after sallys second flight. And if you think about the competitive environment of astronauts, ive as i said, ive gotten to know many of them. And shannon was never one of those people. She was a mother when she was selected and had a lot of other things going on and didnt really play in the game of, oh, i want to be first. And she had an amazing career. So starting with shannon, id love to hear one of the vignettes i think you interviewed her in person for your research. What can you tell us about shannon that you uncovered that will will really a teaser for people are going to read the book . I think you really nailed it when you know some of the things you just said about her. Shannon and shannon among the six of them, probably youre the most to be an astronaut. You know, one of the things i loved arning about her was when the first mercury seven astronauts appeared on a magazine cover back in the sixties, she immediately she you know, it clicked for her. She saw all white men on that cover and she thought oh, im completely excluded from this cohort, even though it was something she desperately wanted to do. And even mailed in a letter to the editor to ask if they were going to let women into space some day. And she got a response from what she remembers saying, you know, maybe someday. And then it ultimately turned out that she was going to she was one of the six. But youre right, you know, while she had this burning passion to go to space, you know, she wasnt really caught up in the politics and, the competition of being the First American woman. But she definitely, you know, with all of the astronauts and in this went for the men as well in their class. You know, they all wanted to fly as soon as possible. That is what ive been told. The aim of an astronaut is to go to space. And so having to wait is a pretty agonizing process. But, you know, it wasnt it wasnt important to her to to be, you know, this big name in the history books. It was really just that she she got to go and, you know, she everyone who talked about shannon. Ill describe her the same way its just she was very cool calm and collected. She knew exactly what she was doing. And that was reflected in her work and she was also a woman of great integrity. You know, theres a big story in the book about how, you know, she was invited on this to saudi arabia and there were some restrictions for her to go by herself because she was a woman. And, you know, she took a stand and and, you know, there was a moment where they said that she could go if she went as an honorary man. And she said absolutely not, im not going to do that. And i think thats a great very indicative of shannons scruples. Truly, i had never heard that story and it really, i think, showed of them all. She was also perhaps the greatest feminist in her own way, that she wasnt going to go on that trip. I, too, was invited to saudi arabia as, the deputy administrator of nasa, and didnt go because even by then it was it was not something felt, you know, we should be supporting and but she really to that. I loved i love that you revealed that story next in the line the fifth to be assigned was dr. Ray said another a fascinating person who i believe you interviewed personally for this, married to another astronaut, ultimately flew on three flights, the only one to sort of take make up, i guess, like her personality is very different than shannons. But yet, wow, how driven could you be that she kept her medical you you outline on their schedule and i really feel like she as a doctor just i dont know how you can do astronaut training along with that thats that was one thing that really struck me about all of the women is just how extremely busy they were and how much they juggled. I mean, it wasnt just ray, you know, others were doing postdoc work or, you know, research. But at the same time, i can barely keep my wits about me with. The one job that i, i can imagine juggling, you know, such heady jobs, all time, but they really managed it with grace. And another thing about ray is she was the first to give birth to the socalled astro tot, which is a a child born of two astronauts. And she really had her hands full with, you know, a newborn, her her doctor work or medical work. And then also being assigned to her first spaceflight so that really inspired me about her and, you know, her flight is extremely interesting because, you know, thats what i loved about diving into these stories is learning each about shuttle flights that they flew on. I feel like, you know, we know about the shuttle flights, but we dont really dive into what exactly they did when they were up there. It kind of lost that momentum over time. So it was really great to kind of go and learn more about the satellites that they were deploying and the payloads that they had on board. But rays is interesting because it did not go according to plan and they really had to improvise this makeshift mission while they were in space and they did it with incredible ease and was a lot of fun for them, actually. So that was a particularly fun flight to write about. Yeah. And i do remember that one because the sink didnt work after we deployed it and i dont want too much of a spoiler alert because you describe it. Well. But struck by while she is creating and having to stitch together literally a tool in space to use in real time, someone from nasa called her a good seamstress. And sally ride, who is on cape com made the correction of a surgeon right. I just i love that interplay and that was a great example of the women kind of like looking out for each other you know, they were an Interesting Team of folks. I wouldnt call them the best of friends, but when they were needed in a pinch, you know, they they always had each others backs, which i really liked. Yeah. I think the interaction was, is probably unique to your book really interesting. You, you dont sugarcoat it and say, oh, they were all best friends. But in the moments of the story, it is clear i there wasnt backstabbing in the sense of other than a competition to be first im sure but your point i want to pull on a bit about how much they did i do you get a sense that that the same for the men the male astronauts. I really didnt know how much else these women doing and it does seem above and beyond what we typically see. Mm. You mean the camaraderie between. Oh im saying for as you were noting how busy they were doing so many things and research and so forth. I dont know if its a sign of the times, but today i think the Astronaut Corps is a bit smaller and i dont most of them have phds before they come. You know, they arent doing the multitasking. I think that these women did. I think some of them did. I mean, some there are other doctors and other researchers that continued their research, which to me blows mind because like you said it and the training alone was already so intense, you know, they had to stay current in the t38 jets, they had to get 15 hours of flight time each month, which is doesnt sound like a lot, but it its quite a lot when youre also, you know, learning the ins and outs of the space shuttle, every component, every subsystem, that was something that they had to do. They were also taking science classes, you know, and then they had their jobs, their technical assignments on top of that, which, you know, sometimes was flights software was working with pressure suits. You know, there was quite a lot to do with in training alone. So the idea that they had time, anything else was, was really mind blowing. Yeah. And next was anna fisher. And anna fisher katz, i believe the first mother in space. And you and i both know that daughter, kristen fisher, both again to parents as astronauts. Chris, chris, christine is there as space reporter and part of your your female space reporters group. But she was the fourth to be assigned side which is interesting as we get into the selection for the first she had a chance potentially to be the first was i think was probably the favorite of some and she did get pregnant and she knew that would take her out of circulation for a bit. But what else can you tell us about that . You found out about anna . Well, anna just was very determined, and i loved that about her. You know, she she very much committed. She was id, im going to space. And i knewhats what i was going to do and nothing was going to detract me from that. And she knew that when she got to signed, especially after she had gotten pregnant, that, you know, there would be some criticism. And that part really struck me. I mean, obviously, i wasnt surprised. I knew, you know, with every single one of these women either was going to be some kind of friction with the choices that they made because, you know, the country wasnt as far along as enlightened did it as it needed to be by that point. But hers is really one of those double standards where youre just kind of eked out by it because, you know, before she flew there was all this commotion about how she was going to be the first mom. And people were really not very happy about it. You know, there are a lot of questions about, you know, how could she leave her child behind, especially me, which is just, you know, kind of egregious to think about when shes on a crew with other men who also had children. None of them were asked, you know, how they felt about leaving their children behind. And even when she was in space, you know, a reporter asked how being an astronaut fit in with her duties as a mother. And she just had to be as graceful as possible. I mean, they all had to be as graceful as possible when they were asked questions like that. And she handled it really well. But one thing about anna, i thought was really interesting was that, you know, she never really took a formal maternity leave. She was assigned to a flight right before she gave birth. And then she was back in the office the next day with her little pillow seat. And she really wanted to show know how determined and dedicated she was to her flight. You know, im sure people will have different opinions about, you know, whether or not that was, you know, something she should have done or said that she needed to do. Maybe that was like a an infrastructure issue or the fact that she still had to go into the office. But ultimately that was her choice. And she really wanted to prove that she was just as dedicated to her job as she was to being a mom. Yeah, thats right. You could see maybe getting some criticism today, but for then, i thinking as i was reading your overview of it that, well, good nasa that they even assigned her as she was coming out of having a baby and yes, thats not how we would look at it today. But you have to look at these things in the times. And anna, i guess she didnt interview she had a contractual obligation. Is she a book . So you know, the women are very popular in terms of their stories. There are other you know, other stories that they have been under contract for. So but anna was really great. You know, i attended lots of q a that she had done. And i even went to one of her ask an astronaut events at Kennedy Space center and that was a really and also one of the things about these women is, you know, theyve been telling their stories for years and years. And so theyve been very open with, you know, what it was like for them and their feelings and their experiences and so that it made it made writing this book really quite easy and quite fun because theres such a rich history to dive from already. Yes. Which does make it surprising to me there hasnt been this book written previously because they are pretty open. Our next character is kathy sullivan, the third female american astronaut to go to space. Shes written several books and i know had also a contractual reason to not be interviewed personally. But shes talked about her experiences. She i probably know her her best of of sex. I think a lot of us do because shes had a long, illustrious career in not only nasa management, but Noah Management as an oceanographer, a geographer and she just really as a geologist also has focused on a lot more broad than just space travel, going to the trenches of the ocean and so forth. Right, Hubble Space Telescope to two missions play by play large in her nasa astronaut career. But interestingly, there is less written about her personal life and im just ill be interested in your kathy story to share with us that that you uncovered but recognize using that couldnt have been easy. Yeah i think that might be does that by design you know some and i think thats also what i learned from writing this book is that some of the women are very eager to talk about their personal lives. You know, for instance, anna fisher, her husband, bill fisher, he was also in the Astronaut Corps, very big part of her story. And her overall career at nasa. So, you know, for some, its its you know, theyre an open book. For others, you know, not so much. And that was the same with sally, too. I think it was an it was only after that she passed on, fortunately, that we we learned what we did about her personal life. So i think its just, you know, and it goes to show that among women, were all were not all the same. Were all very different. And we all like to share certain things and not share others. But with kathy, you know, kathy story was really fantastic because it really got to dive into the world of spacewalks and you know, all of the contentions surrounding, you know, the First American woman to do a spacewalk, you know, was she going to have a different time . You know, there was a theres a story in there about whether she needed to spend more time doing a pre breathe, which is, you know, taking the time to to reach the right pressure beforehand. And there was concern, you know, that because she was a woman, you know, she would have a different time and she had to fight back against before she performed her spacewalk. And so, you know, that that one was really fun and when she flew, she flew with sally. And so hers was the first flight with two women on board and i thought that was really interesting because, you know, she made a comment about how i think this was in one of her oral histories. You know, when they were selecting the first woman, you know, heaven forbid they select two of us to go for the first time. It had to be just one. But hers hers was ultimately the one where the first two women flew, which i thought was neat. Yeah, that was the pre breathe story. Everyones going to have to read the book to get that one because thats thats a really good one. And i had not heard it and i think kathy is pretty open about her some of some of the early shenanigans antics of of men when they flew the famous how many do you pack stories. Yes. Yeah. Shes a very big figure in that. Yes. But she she really i found as a manager also, she had she had all that down and she knew what she was dealing with, which was really helpful for for her career. I think interests. Shes also been open that she wasnt even at sallys first flight. Shes been the most open to say, you know, it was a little hard not see selected as first and i that for me is something that i can relate to you know obviously i think at the time they probably all wanted to put on a very strong front and, you know, say, oh, it doesnt bother me to be the first or, you know, i just want to just want to fly. But i feel like, you know, if i were one of the first six, i think there would probably be a small desire, maybe not a small one, to to be the one in the history books, you know. And so for her to be open about that and that it actually did bother her, i think is something that we could all relate to. And i im really happy that she did, you know, make that known to people that, you know, you know, it did hurt not to be to not be selected as the first. I agree. I agree. Buzz aldrin has has also done the same thing. Number two on the moon. Well, the second woman selected for nasas mission was judy resnick. And hers is a tough story since we know she ultimately lost her life on second flight and challenger accident, a very vivacious person we all can remember her floating in space with her beautiful hair, taking up half of the shuttle capsule. It seemed lots of fun stories. Whats your whats your favorite, judy . I think learning about judy was probably my favorite part of this book, because it really did feel a bit like detective work, you know, having to piece together peoples memories of hers, of her from, you know, the people that worked with her, what they remember of her. And everyone has a very vivid memory of judy. And that was very much you know, she she could take a lot of , but she would give it right back and i really love that description of her because everybody kind of said it about her. And i and i really liked that. She was obviously a very strong, very bold personality. She and she was very committed to being taken seriously. You know, she was fiercely protective of her private life. And also, she did not want to make any kind of show about her gender. She also made history as the first jewishamerican to fly in a space. And she also didnt want, you know, she didnt like labels. She just wanted to be an astronaut, you know. And that was she didnt want to emphasize the other aspects of that. Not that she wasnt proud, but, you know, it was just she wanted to be known for her job and her job alone. And i thought that was really inspiring. Her flight is also fantastic. You know, they had the first pad abort, which, you know, for me as a Current Space reporter, it was interesting to hear all the fuss around the pad abort because, you know, currently we have paddleboards all the time. Its when the rocket fails to ignite the engines right away while its on the launch pad. So those for me are pretty common. But back then that was a very scary time for the Shuttle Program because theyd never had a pad aboard a book before and that scene is really was really fun to write because it was a very vivid memory. Its one of those flashbulb moments for a lot of people. So those who were on board during that abort really remember it and they remember every kind of second as it ticked by. And so that was really, really neat to get to write. It was almost as if i was there. And then when she did go into space you mentioned her hair, you know, there was really great moments that really showed how cognizant the women were that they were under this intense media scrutiny when they flew. You know, she judy, had a an incident with her hair. I wont go into full detail, but, you know, she had to swear her crewmates to secrecy about it. You know, she knew that if it got out, that would be the entire of her flight because she was just second American Woman to fly. And i think thats just a good reminder that, you know, when you when you do fly as a first a in a underrepresented, you know, youre theres much more eyes on you than you could ever possibly. Why and youre representing a larger cohort. Cohort of people. Yeah. I think you pull out really well in the book. All six took that on in their own way and and that was probably a thing that bonded them. They knew they knew they each had to be excellent. And by all indications, they were all excellent. Yeah. Just truly Remarkable Missions as you go into them and their success, their role in them all. It just it it just made me smile to turn every page to go into sally ride. The first person selected im interested in and both your takeaways first before or as you say we you ended up being able to talk to her partner of 27 years tam oshaughnessy, as well as her husband steve hawley and but before we knew of her personal life, her selection to me the story of of george feeling, i think for a lot of the really subset of ways she was great at using the remote manipulating arm that would play in this mission but but really when he went up and pushed her as being the first to chris craft you say he said no. So he had two others in mind. Im presuming, judy and anna, tell us about that. Yes. So chris is i think since then, chris has mentioned sally was not his first choice. And thats i think that is really what struck about learning about this whole Selection Process was how really came down to one guys opinion. I mean he obviously had some help. You know, i talked about how he consulted with bob crippen, who was the commander of that flight. But it really george abby was the guy that you got you to go into space. You know and he had this mythos him but also was mystery because he didnt he never told you where you stood that was kind of the criticism i heard was you. Hes a very opaque person. Yeah. It seemed like every time a woman was on you, you thought they were going to be asked. They werent sure if they the call was to tell them they were out, right . Yeah. Or if they were in trouble or something, you know, no one quite knew what to call from george abbey meant until you actually heard the words. You know, wed like to thank you, too. You so and so flight. But yeah. No, george, you know. When i spoke to george, he really didnt i thought it was interesting that people thought there was this big mystery because for him, it was there really wasnt any kind of special sauce to it. You know, he just tried to match people the best qualifications to the requirements of the flight. And so six, seven, which was what sally flew, you know, was very involved with the remote manipulator system or the robotic arm and at the time, she was really considered, you know, the best at the at the robotic arm, you know, manipulating it. And so that was ultimately what the outward reason for why she was. But, you know, there were other things about her, too, that did go into at least from what bob told me. You know, they they thought she would be able to handle it better than maybe some of the others, just they didnt think that being the first was something that would go to her head that might have to do with the fact that, you know, she was very she a big compartmentalize her and she you know, she was also a bit an introvert. So that might have also played into her favor. So really wasnt you know, while they say that it was, you know, the her work with robotic arm, there were other things at play as well. They also referenced her her past as a tennis player and how she was able to keep her cool on the tennis court. So i think some of those things played into it as well. But like i said, i was really by it because i think in my and maybe in most peoples heads, you know, we have this weve built up selection. I thought maybe there are some special algorithm, you know, put all these inputs into a computer and it pops out, you know, the perfect person for the job and really, you know, its it can be just just as subjective as other Selection Process out there. Yes, indeed. I think that comes out well. And i think the the phrase, you said she would not they felt seek the spotlight or fame and thats thats really a fascinating thing when you look at other selections nasas made for astronaut and certainly with Neil Armstrong and also an introvert i would guess that played and so maybe as we look first people back on the moon here we ought to be thinking of that as is we mentioned at the time of her death in 2012. Well first we should say sally flew twice nasas shuttle mission. She was scheduled for a third before challenger. After the challenger accident, stayed to be involved. And she was the only astronaut assigned to be involved in the challenger accident. She played a pivotal that you outlined well and then went on to author a report known as the ride report but was really about the future of the Space Program laid out a lot of we ended up doing to this fast forward she continue to play this role as i with her later i was just going to say yeah also she she became known for helping with the shuttle investigations and then i know she also worked on a report after the columbia disaster that you worked on with her as well. Yes, indeed. We were thrilled of joy of my life to. Work, work with sally over the years and the most recent was on the future of human spaceflight that really put us on the course were on. I have said the commercial crew program that you cover and that ive been involved in has really we wouldnt have it. I feel without dr. Sally ride. She is someone who i saw her come to the opinion during the what is known as the Augustine Committee about the future of human space flight task force in 2009. And she ultimately, with all her credibility was able to say its time and we can now transition our astronaut trance station to and from the space station to the sector, not part of the book, but you will well, lay out sallys credibility and how she earned it and how important shes been. I think not just to nasa, but to nation, and then at her death to find out that she had a female partner. You interviewed tam. Tell us about that. Dont i dont know that really much has been talked about since the New York Times obituary, which stated very matter of factly that shed had a partner of 27 years, was young woman. Now, tam was fantastic to speak to and she has many old tapes. Sally, sally used to record everything, you know, she was very she was very meticulous in taking notes and writing things down and recording things. And so tam sure shared some of those materials with me, and it really made the book all that more vivid and great. Also, id be remiss if i didnt shout out when shers about sally ride. You know, tam is also featured heavily in there and. Sally the sally ride biography is by lynne is really the definitive text about sally and she does a great job with that. But one thing i really love talking to about was, you know, obviously they kept their relationship private it while sally was alive. But, you know, tam essentially came out when sally passed and she told me, you know, she knew that she probably got some criticism about keeping that a secret. But a lot of people have messaged her since she came out and became public it and told her that, you know, her saying that she was sallys partner, you know, gave them the confidence and courage to come out themselves and, be true to who they were. And so i thought that was really a fantastic thing to learn. And i think, you know, thats just it shows how much weight sally had while she was in this world. And even when shes not, you know, shes still inspires people to this day. She absolutely does. And i agree. Lynn shared a book the biography of sally really is the penultimate work on her life and she does go into more detail about these relationship trips and the timing. You cover it very well as a as well. And im struck by this question which lynn teases out a little bit. When did nasa know . Did people suspect that theres so much speculation . Did you pick up on any of this . No, i really didnt. Just to be clear, she was sally was also married to steve hawley when she was training to go to space and when she was in space. So you know, and tam and ive talked about this too, you know, she probably, you know, was attracted to both men and women, you know, so maybe there wasnt, you know there was no speculation happening at that time. I know i did talk to one of sallys friends to mention that, you know, she had heard somebody, a reporter was looking into sallys sexuality and that that really bothered her when she heard about. But it ultimately nothing came of it. But im pretty sure, you know, i obviously we cant talk to sally now, but im sure there was a concern for for that to be to come out because that would be you know, all anyone talked about was the fact that she had a past relationship with a woman before she came to the Space Program and, you know, we you know, theres a reference, Billie Jean King, and how much scrutiny she was when she became, you know, when she came out. And obviously, Billie Jean King was a role model for sally as a fellow tennis player. And so, you know, it was probably one more thing that she had to think about. She probably shouldnt have had to thinkbout at the time and itindicative of the fact that, you know, when sally flew, there was still quite a long ways to go and both you know, how the country viewed women and how the country viewed gay people and know she really she really on a very big burden when she when she stepped into that role. Yeah that is a great point that i think those of us who know sally felt when she died of course overwhelming grief she wasnt even very open about her pancreatic cancer, although i had seen her recently, it was obvious she was not well, but the head of nasas charlie bolden, whod known her a long time she died, asked me, did you know that she was gay or bi and i said, i know, but i. I wouldnt say its that surprising. Of course, he knew hawley, her husband, you know, no reason to have it really be a question except she was private. So the very thing she was selected for almost, you know, as we were talking about one of the discriminate ers also played into this and its interesting that for sally she didnt love in all the interviews and all the crazy questions that you outline, journalists ask her. She kept hoping for a day when the issue wasnt the fact that she was a woman. She certainly wouldnt have wanted to add. To that. Another aspect her private life. So its its very understandable all but theres a visit that you discuss in the book where george abbey who had selected her, seemed to think sally was a little nervous, not herself. Before her first flight. And he brought in one of sallys guests to the launch, and she was a former girlfriend of a romantic relationship of sallys and allowed her to go to the beach house breaking quarantine to settle sally down. Sally was married at the time. It wasnt astronaut steve hawley, her husband, who he brought in, it was molly harper. Hard to really imagine. Didnt have a sense. I mean, ill leave the speculation to others but he the way from what he told me he just knew that she was very close with molly and that if anyone could make her feel more comfortable he, wanted to provide that for her. And so i thought that was very sweet. He must have had some sixth sense of some kind. Yeah. And knowing george as long as i have. He did that with with a lot of people so it could be anything and broadening now weve got about 20 minutes to go. We have a more general discussion about women at nasa, specifically women astronauts at nasa. And you mentioned, i think, the clothes in the epilog that in the years after the sex left their mark nasa and the world, the of women in the Astronaut Corps continued to swell you, say later, maybe not as much as i should. They havent really. So im just wondering how you chose that that language because there were six astronaut females in this class, weve only one other time had more than six in a class. Its true mostly for the next 20 years there were only two or three. To be fair, though, this one of the larger classes that weve had, i think in a very long time. Im not sure when weve had other, you know, 35 people enter the Astronaut Corps. But youre right. And i did try to make that clear at the end, you know, while had women in every single class since the six arrived, you know were very, very far away from reaching of any kind, you know, one sixth of the people whove gone to space have been women. And so, you know, its its still a ways to go. And then in terms of the statistics for women of color, its its abysmal. You know, we are still trying, you know, racing to catch up. And so am inspired by nasas artemus program, which has the stated goal of sending the first woman and the first person of color to the moon obviously i think theres you you know there there might be some debate as to whether or not, you know, that should be nasas goal for the program. But i think its its a great you know, its a great way to move forward. And the fact that they are putting these top of mind is nice. But, you know, its still we have a lot of catching up to do. Yeah, i think any of the six probably wouldnt love i know sally wouldnt have them particularly in advance saying itd be a woman again. She was yearning a time when this would be behind us then. Then we would have equity. And it is rather shocking that 45 years after the six were selected, there has been only one astronaut class had gender equity. That was under my watch. Im proud to say it was. Only eight people and we managed to get four as it was laura. But they havent done it since. And, and the, the selection that was made just as i was arriving in 2009, i think was three women out of 12 or something. Its been ive run the percentages. We did have a class in 96 it was 44 people. So well over the 35 and there were eight women. But thats a similar percentage to what we had 20 years before. Yeah, just every photo, every photo of every class, every moniker of every class. The eight balls. You know, i mean, theyre just all gender gendered terms. And im not sure why we cant get out of this. I am interested. Think you get into a little 35 new guys is what the class of six was known as. Tell me about how picked that and what what that really stands for. Well yeah its really the tough and gs was there their name for for publicly it was the 35 new guys because they were 35 of them. And also i think and i say this in the book as well, you know, that term is really indicative of what the women wanted to be at, the time they very much wanted to be, just of the guys. It was not in nature to highlight themselves as women. They wanted to seamlessly fit in and that, you know, that was seen in all of the choices that they made. You know, theres a great moment in the book an and sally snuck away to store to go buy khakis and polo shirts, which was, you know, the de facto uniform for engineers, which still is, by the way, at least based on my parents when they were working at nasa. But yeah, that was, you know, that was kind of how it was for women, especially for the first women back in the seventies. In the eighties, you know, you you really didnt want to highlight the fact that you a woman or that you were a woman astronaut. You just wanted to be an astronaut. I think weve evolved a bit in terms how we see, you know, how we present those things today, you know, obviously we want to be treated equally at i know i do. And but also am happy to celebrate the fact that im a woman. So i think they had to kind of try and fit in as much as possible in order for us to kind of celebrate those differences moving forward. But also the term tough and gs has a cheeky second name, which is the f ing new guys, which is a military term to refer to the fact that, you know, they knew they were the newbies and that, you know, everyone was looking at them with a side eye. Yeah, absolutely. Do do tell us about your background. I had noted your parents worked at nasa. Yes. So what did they. Well, yeah. So but this is why i really loved writing about the Shuttle Program was because its been near and dear to my heart set for my entire life. My parents worked their entire careers on the Space Program. My mother was the deputy orbiter chief engineer, and then my dad helmed the Propulsion Branch at jsc before they retired. And so, you know, i really grew up with the space Shuttle Program, obviously, on the engineering side its very different. I learned this, you know, the engineering portion versus the operations, theyre very separated. So this was a chance for me to kind of dive into a part of the shuttle world that i really didnt know that well. And also as a child, i say this all the time but you know, i gravitated from space a bit, you know, as a teenager just because, you know, when your parents do something, its not necessarily that cool. And i also didnt really study shuttle as much as i could have it was kind of just one of those things where my parents would wake up at three in the morning to go, you know, cover a launch and then come home, know, at midnight or something crazy like that. So it was really neat to dive into each of these shuttle flights that the women were on. And like i said earlier, you know, learn more about the payloads and what the objectives were and how much they had to train and what kind of training entailed to to go to space. So it really did kind of it was a beautiful full circle moment for me as who grew up with this program. But didnt really appreciate it at the time. And are your parents working at nasa . No, they are happily retired and living, enjoying pensions and in there, especially for mom having a career like that. And you know, a little bit in the book about not just astronauts and how much we have, how far weve come, the beginning of having women in these fields. But why do think 45 years later, were still not there any either operational or the Engineering Community or the astronauts . Well, i think when you put, you know, societal barriers in place, they just take a very long time to dismantle, i think a great example is, you know, the choices that were made in the early days of the program. You know, for instance, spacesuit sizes, you know, there was an effort to create the extra small upper torso, which is part of the spacesuit. So that it could accommodate, you know, smaller women. Well, it would predominantly be women, but smaller people in general. And that choice was not made ultimately. And so, you know, years later, it takes so long to make those developments and to to build those, you that technology that choices that we make reverberate through. And so, obviously, if you remember the first all female spacewalk had to be rescheduled because of a problem with spacesuit sizing. Now obviously didnt have to do with the fact that there was no extra small but it just goes to show that those choices that we make they will they will have repercussions for years and even decades and so i think maybe that can speak to why its taken so long. Its just when it comes to space, you know, things take a really long time to develop. And so if you make choices that, limit people early on in the days of the program, its going to take a really long time to dismantle those. So thats why we need to to put these things first in front and center is because then we will have these issues play out decade, decades later. Sure. I think that is is an important point and a piece of it. And you unearth a great quote from, a technician about the spacesuits who says, you know, were not discriminating this is just economics. And i had to look into the spacesuit designs and weve done this to ourselves more than once. So yeah, yeah, it takes 10 to 20 years. It doesnt take 45. And we keep making the same mistakes. Frankly, i think men are making the decisions and we get the extra large suits and we dont get the smalls and theyre this is affected many women in the program who ive known over time and we say their unintended consequence is and and hopefully we are working through that to me do feel that theres there is a bias when you look at doctors and lawyers law schools medical schools over 50 female but engineering isnt one of those fields that is trending in that in that direction as as weve been talking about and continue to try to unearth the reasons i know nasas making attempts with with our team as you look the Dragon Missions astronauts flying now the First Mission add two white men of we had a lot of time to make that selection we in all of our flights i think nasa just had first flight that had the same number of women as men on it. But one of the women was from an International Astronaut program. So truthfully, we were flying a lot. Back in your story with the six. Mm in 1985 flew Nine Missions and those are of 5 to 6 people. So today were only flying twice a year with with nasa crews rotations of four. So there arent as opportunities there. But i will say and this is something i kind of touched on very briefly at the end of the book, you know, as more of these commercial online come online and offer different ways to get into space, you know, there are more opportunities to send a wider array of people going up. I dont know if those opportunities are necessarily being realized, but, you know, look at inspiration for mission. You know, that was the first. Well, i wasnt the first. All civilian or was the first all civilian mission that x flew on a private and that allowed for a very Different Group of people to go. There are two women on that flight and one of them was a professor. Another was a Childhood Cancer survivor. And so, you know, hopefully with Companies Like space x and blue origin and Virgin Galactic, you know, theyre offering new ways to get into space that weve never had before. And so hopefully that means that, you know, we can offer rides to people would never have gone to space otherwise. Theres still a bit of a barrier involved and thats, you know, your wallet but like with inspiration for and you know one of the reason Virgin Galactic flights you there are Charity Raffles there are you know nice benefactors who will pay your way for you. You know, its just finding that right opportunity. And so we just continue to move in that direction as more companies, you know, come online. Now, i will say, obviously, companies in any industry, you know, were still dealing with the same issues of any tech industry. You know, in terms of bias representation and sexual harassment. So, you know, while they may offer these opportunities. We also have to, you know, continue to look behind the scenes and make sure that were, you know, operating with in mind and being as inclusive as possible. Yeah, its a very unique time for people to be flying in space, whether youre willing to call them astronauts or not. I, i wont get into that debate, but the benefactors, as you stated, have have just i feel done a fantastic job as the mission. You mentioned inspiration4 and jared isaacman. That was the first space crew that that was 50 female. But the in general, the millionaires who are able to buy seats from the billionaires have all been men and it is due to the think, as you say, some of these benefactors have chosen to give away seats to a broader range of individuals will trail off over time, im sure, and most of the seats will to not only that people willing to pay but the ones really interested. And there is an element to this that is of poll after poll shows that more men are interested in going to space than women. Of course, that still means plenty of women willing to go, but there is something about it that that is that is different. And i think these six really what i liked about them and i dont know if it was part of the selection, but they did have a big range within them of their of their reasons their interests as as you really really point out. I am though interested since, i think as a Government Program the nasa astronauts, thats where we can make the greatest impact there. There was not a hint the book. So im wondering if you ever uncovered it as of of women being in any way less capable or qualified and when they were on their flights, whether their ability to do their job was in any way wanting, you know, not that i really uncovered. I think, you know, they definitely talked about their struggles. You know, some them obviously struggled in certain areas of training before flew, but they were really determined to be as best as they could be that you know, i didnt really uncover anything them that, you know, doubted their selection or that they were worthy of the job in any way. Yeah, it really comes out in fact, that they all made incredible contributions on on orbit and their missions. I think probably thats the case with any astronaut you write about that nasas been focused on that for all the right reasons. And as we wrap, weve just got a couple of minutes left as we talk about beyond the six and nasas ability to incorporate women in a lot of these decisions being made by men in many ways that is still happening, although we recent had a woman who is head of the human spaceflight, she she left to go to space x. We havent yet had a female nasa administrator. Im one of four female deputy administrators. Weve had so still just wondering for and you talk about this a little in the end of the book, whats ahead know weve talked about artemus, but do you see there is a you that that change will continue. Well like i said i think it might be a little controversial for some the fact that artemis is the Artemis Program has the stated goal of sending the first woman the first person of color to the moon. But i do think that that is a tactic that gets results. You know, i think its just look at the Selection Committee that picked the first six women. You know, they had diversity, inclusion and top of mind when they went to go select this class. And so that dictated, you know, how they advertised for the program. You know, they hired Nichelle Nichols from star trek. Come do a psa to reach out to, folks. It dictated what universities they went to, what groups what clubs they spoke with. And because they had that at top of mind, you know, that really ultimately led to their success finding women and people of color to come into the program. And so i think thats a good lesson for why its important to have these things, you know, top of mind when you go out and you make those selections because it leads you to find youre making decisions that make that goal successful so it can be up for debate on whether or not you know it should be part of the Artemis Program to have those stated goals. But i just ultimately that it will lead to success. So maybe thats something maybe thats a lesson that nasa can take with it as it moves forward. Is know when you put these things top of mind, you will find the right people for the job. I think that thats a great message and a great wrap up for this book review six the untold story of americas first women asks for nots. Lauren grush. Its its a beautiful story. And i really appreciate you telling it and talking to me about it today. Thank you so much, laurie. It was a were very pleased to be hosting m t connolly, whos here to talk about her new book, the measure of our age navigating safety, money and meaning later in life in the prolog of her book, empty