Transcripts For CSPAN WTO 20240705

Cspan is your unfiltered view of government. We are funded by these Television Companies and more, including cox. It is extremely rare. Hi. Friends do not have to be. When you are connected you are not alone. Cox s providers. Giving you a front row seat to democracy. And now a discussion on the Global Economy supply chain and trade embargoes with the director general of the wto hosted by the Cato Institute here in washington d. C. This is about one hour and 10 minutes. Hello everyone. Thank you for coming. My name is scott lincicome. I want to welcome you in the audience and those watching online to another thrilling installment of the defending globalization project with dr. Okonjoiweala, director general of the wto. A frank and hopefully entertaining discussion on all things trade. Before we get to that please allow me to set the table. The defending globalization project is intended to defend globalization. A relatively Free Movement of ideas across borders from its increasingly vocal critics. For nearly 30 years, the wto and the multilateral trading system. A negotiating forum for a 164 member system for resolving disputes among them. A clearinghouse for tradeinrmation. As a trade lawyer, i wholeheartedly endorse all three of those pillars. It i the wto to modern globalization cannot be overstated. Over three quarters of crossborder trade is carried out based on wto members commitments. Commitments National Governments have voluntarily undertaken and often mix longstanding and politically sensitive restrictions on traits of goods and services, industrial and agricultural subsidies and under discriminatory economic policies. Meanwhile the wtos dispute Settlement System has long been considered the crown jewel of international law. A system National Governments have successfully used hundreds of times to peacefully resolve serious disagreements over trade restrictions and amazingly enough, to encourage members actingoncommitments to revise their offending measures, usually without retaliation by the complaining government or any other type of dangerous escalation. Those who understand the tricky political economy of trade policy know this is no small thing. It is a testament to just how member governments have long valued the multilateral system and their nations Good Standing wherein. The crucial role in checking protections helps explain my global trade has increased trillion in 1995, the year the wto was founded, to almost 25 trillion in 2022. The system is not the only reason for the gains but it is a big one. Why are we here . Despite decades of success and the benefits of trade, the wto faces growing challenges and skepticism, particularly among american policymakers about the values of the organization and globalization more broadly. Wto rules and dispute Settlement System are on the defensive. Washington seems to be leading the charge. For those of us who follow trade policy surprising and quite frankly depressing. The United States is not only a driving force behind the creation of the wto and its eral agreement on tariffs and trade but also successfully using wto advances americanusually in a more liberal direction. In another sense, i think we all get it. Rightly ortoday trade is a four letter word on the campaign trail. If you will victimize millions ofns, you will need at least one villain doing the victimizing. To a lesser extent, wto rules and procedures, some real imagined, have been percolating in congress for decades. For those interested in those wto mythsndlities we published a short essay on this very thing so please check it out. The wto like globalization is on defense today and we are defending globalization, so who better to talk with us about all this stuff than our guest today . Dr. Ngozi okonjoiweala took office as wto director general in 2021 and has been insanely busy ever since. The last twoplus years she has spearheaded efforts to right the ship and handle negotiations but to reassert the importance of globalization and the wtos record on Economic Development and the before becoming the director general, dr. Ngozi served as finance minister and foreign minister. The first woman to hold both positions. She had a 25 year career at the world bank as an economist rising to the number 2 position. Sive career, dr. Ngozi has been a Firm Believer in and champion of lifting countries out of g them and others achieve robust Economic Growth and make the world greener along the way. She has more accolades andawards and i can begin to mention and she writes powerfully and often on trade issues. This includes an excellent piece onei affairs on why the world still needs globalization and i should add the wto. I reached out ton catos project. Todays discussion is hopefully not the last of her participatio can discuss that later. In the meantime please welcome me in welcoming wto director general ngozi okonjoiweala. [applause] mr. Lincicome just so you know, we will have a series of questions. I will start with those. And then we audience for about 20 minutes of questioning. I am going to start with a softball, since you were so kind to join us. We will get to the harder questions next. You have enjoyed a long and distinguished career studying Development Economics and globalization. What first drew you to the field and what is theos mt surp thing you have learned over this time . Dr. Okonjoiweala first, thank you, scott and let me complement the Cato Institute on this series on globalization. We look at all aspects. The one thing i want to tell you is i do not feel on the defensi have to say that. I want to state. The fact aboutzation i do not feel like i have to fight to defend it. If people do away with it, what will transpire will be so unimaginable. What we need to do is remind people of what it has been. We have to be candid about it. I do not feel i do not feel as if im on the ropes, having to fight. Mr. Lincicome that is good to hear. For those of us in the d. C. Policy community, it often feels like i am defending so much of this but it is great to hear that maybe outside of washington dr. Okonjoiweala when i first joined the wto honest, i felt that way. We have been able to show the wto can be successful and produce results. And be able to put forward. Im not saying we are home free. The costs of implementing what inking. Mr. Lincicome why did you get into all of this stuff . What do you think of the most surprising thing . Dr. Okonjoiweala when i got into it, it is a story from whens nine years old. My father was a mathematical economist. When i was nine, he was preparing his lectures an academic one day i was bothering him to take me to the University Bookstore to get some childrens books. He reached out and grabbed a very thick volume and gave it to me to read. I was just nine. He said read and i will quiz you after. I could not understand what the hell it was saying. He fin and asked me. I later found out it was a volume of sam wilson. That made me decide i would never go into economics. As i got to the university level, i found out what interested me. Certain people are trying to deliver outside of yourself. What could you do to be of service . How you help . To put a long story short, by the time i got to my first year i decided economics was a field to deal with real policies that could make a real change in pet there. What has surprised me the most in the field . What is surprising to me, how quickly bad policies and poor ec environments can reverse Good Progress in a country. And really set people back. Just howand just how difficult it is, how much effort it takes to bring a country back once it has those difficult periods. Over and over, not only in my own country, seven years and two episodes, all over the that never ceases to surprise me that a country can be doing well and then you have a change in policies and bad management and you can go back a decade or two. The second thing is institutions matter. I know economics economists say that. But strong institutions. There are some that stand the same. If you have a Strong Social contract and strong institutions, a country tends to do better. Those that do not tend not to do well. Mr. Lincicome ets stick with the surprised theme a little more. I said during the course of our project that if you asked me a ago whether Something Like our project was necessary after all the data and the history and experience on globalization, incomes development and poverty, after the late 1990s and the wto protest in seattle and all of at, i would have said you were crazy that we would need to have a project. Yet, here we are. I ask surprised we are having to sit here in 2023 especially in the United States, and defend or reassert the case for open trade and globalization and for the wto especially in regards to its effect on the poor and the environment. Dr. Okonjoiweala yes, on the one hand i am surprised and know on the other, i am not. Part . It is surprising, yes of course the United States when i think of the wto, i think of it together a 75 year history of having created a system that has largely delivered. Global public good. That has largely delivered over time. The fact we now have to reassert delivered can be surprising. Lets remember some of the things, some of your work on globalization. Reminding people it lifted over one billion people out of poverty. You look at data, between 1995 and 2011 globalization and the trade system haveed to make countries to increase income gdp by 50 . That is rich countries. Poor countries and emerging markets, 150 . Also, it shows the u. S. Since the Second World War. Up to about 2. 3llthere are so many studies that have been done that demonstrated how the trading system has helped not just poor countries. We are reminding people of that. I think that if the sur say yes. The no part, i am not surprised there globalization. Should work, a best seller. At that time therwho did not really listen. There have been signs of globalization. There were poor people in rich countries left behind and poor countries that were left out of the system. Does that mean that you throw out globalization . No. It means that we look and ask the question, how do we take care of those who have been marginalized within the system . Trade, as you said, you need someone to blame and to knock. Even where technology is the culprit for taking away jobs. That is where the problem lies. Mr. Lincicome acronyms, wto na fta, they are complicated and scary sometimes. For all the talk though, one of the things we have written in our project, one of the things your organization has documented so well over the last few years is that global trade and value chains have remained pretty darn durable given the global pandemic, all the political rhetoric and the other things. And of course the details are changing as they always do, some policiesertainly here in the u. S. Have regressed on the margins, but still, the whole death of globalization thing has been wildly oversold. But, is there a point at which in your view the political rhetoric, the policy changes start to seem real and have a Significant Impact on the trade reality, or is that already happening, we are just not seeing it yet because ofd to that, in your view, what are the costs . If this really does start to be a bigtime retreat, what are the costs that we will face for the developed world but also of course for the developing world . Dr. Okonjoiweala well, yes thankthe work we have done has shown that trade has been pretty resilient. If you look at the figures of global trade, it is at an alltime 31 trillion, 31. 5 trillion in goods, the rest and services. The rest in services. It is at an alltime high. If you look at the the u. S. And china china and the eu, that is the latest figures wethe eu is slightlyj[ over 900 billion worth of trade. So, right now, in aggregate the data we have substantiate the loud noise you hear. But does that mean that there are not issues . There are. Emerging fragmentation in trade. We are beginning to see signs of fragmentation. That can be very costly to the world. Including and especially to developing countries and emerging markets. Suppose the world fragments into two trading blocs. What does that mean . We did some simulations to simulate the two trading blocks. We found that the world would reduce 5 of gdp in the longer term. At is a lot. That is like the economy losing the economies of the world. Emerging markets and developing countries the numbers would be in the double digits 11 , 12 . From fragmentation into blocks. The warning as this would be very costly to the world if we were to do it. Then you would really be finding emerging markets and developing countries who will long time been told that open markets, Trading Systems no protectionism, that is the way to go. Nto trying to integrate into world trade. Then you are turning back on them. Thats why theres also a divide that is emerging. Countries began to question glo bal trade. The signs of fragmentation that we see emerging, even though you have numbers if you go behind the numbers you can see certain sectors trade between china and the u. S. I decline the technology sector, semi conductors, certain areas. That is emerging. We also see in another simulation that trade between likeminded seems to be growing faster than non likeminded. I two blocks. Those are some warning. That we need to Pay Attention to. Can i just Say Something . Does that mean that we should not the vulnerabilities of supply chains that have emerged . We have to admit that during the pandemic, we saw vulnerabilities in supply chains. But what is the diagnosis . People blame trade and supply chains. But if you look at the issue the issue is really over concentration of the production of certain products in certain geographies and certain sectors. And that does not build resilience. So i do agree with those who say that, lets look at certain sectors are very important to the world and see how we deal with deconcentrating supply chains so the world can be more resilient. Semi conductors manufactured inone geography or one part of the world, is that resilient . No. We should look at that. Pharmaceuticals, you saw like africa imported 99 of vaccines 90 of pharmaceuticals. Maybe we need to deconcentrate some of the pharmaceutical supply chains. There is an argument fo i will end on this note. We are arguing for a new reimagining of globalization. So people who have problems are completely wrong there are issues to look at. Lets reimagine globalization to the concentrate de concentrate some of the supply chains and build more resilience at how we relocate the supply chains, putting them in countries and regions in rich countries who are the margins of the where the margins of the Global Supply chain before. There are poorer countries that have a Good Environment for ss. Not just china plus one which is vietnam or indonesia or india. They could be china plus morocco it morocco china plus bangladesh, china plus brazil, china plus senagal plus senegal, china plus africa, china plus nigeria. Forgive me if i forget my own. [laughter] so we are just saying, where there is a Good Environment, you can try to build resilienceand that is what we are advocating by saying reglobalization. You can look at the regions within the u. S. Where there has been a hit, where people have been losing jobs. I want to say that, by the way 0 million jobs turnover in the u. S. Each year, and since work is all institute has shown it is att t is easy to blame trade. If you look at the regions where people have left behind, we are not against the. Mr. Lincicome one of the things we have always said is for american policymakers concerned about china, there are freetrade agreements with other countries that could be pursued and others which would ave protections of industrial policy. Lets continue. The political shift against globalization andseveral origins. One big one seems to be the notion of particularly on the left thatrade exacerbates Climate Change and therefore that must trade would magically mitigate it. Weve shown in our project and another essay that the environmental race to the bottom is mostly a myth, over the long term at least countries at least start to get richer a economically through trade and through other things, and they end up eventually with cleaner environments and loemissions. Thats more of an indirect thing and certainly not immediate. You and your organization have hit on more fits of trade for the environment. How of course, just as importantly, h economy instead of actually mitigating environmental damage could actually make things worse. I wonder if you could elaborate on that project in your finding dr. Okonjoiweala thank you. I think this is critically important. Im someone who believes, without any that Climate Change is an existential threat. That if we do not act, we will find ourselves at the margin we are looking at the issues now but the very thing threatening our very existence if we ignore that, that is a big issue. Tos standpoint also, i always say my mentor has been that the wto if you look at the founding documents of the wto, marrakech agreement, in the preamble, it says that the wtospose is to enhance Living Standards help create employment and support sustainable develowhat could be more attractive than that . It is all about people. It is what attracted me to go for this job. So if it is all about people my argument has been that people have been left out of the wto for a long time. Without du respect lawyers took over. The wo the wto became defined by the system and everyone forgot that what we deliver is to really help people. Trade can really help with Environmental Issues and with sustainability. Its founding dna. E duly to high missions. Shipping about 3 internationally. 3 contribution to Greenhouse Gas emissions. That is happening. But those industries are working on Green Hydrogen and other pathways to lower logistics the admissions missions. What can trade itself and the wto rules to mitigate and help us get to net zero by 2050 . Thats what i think about all the time. We actually insisted that there is a positive aspect to trade and trade polic cop 28, we managed to get a trade day for the First Time Ever at cop. With the International Trade center to illustrate some of this. It was very successful. This document says, trade policy for climate action. Looked specifically at trade policies and actions that could contribute to net zero. Let me just say one or to illustrate, very simpleminded. If you look at the tariff regimes in many countries, you will find that the on renewables and cleaner goods are often higher than for fossil fuels products. So we say we want to get to net zero, but your own tariff policies are dir tier products. So we urge countries in their nationally determined contributions to integrate Something Like this into how they deliver. Simple thing you can recalibrate. In many developing countries we have secondhand cars, which often emit. We want young people and those who have aspirations and those in the middle so we usually have cheaper tariffs on those than on hybrid and electric vehicles. Looking at these regimes can help. Another area, Government Procurement. We have an agreement at the wto. Do you know it a 13 trillion business, Government Procurement . Yoen purchase. Just by looking at the way you procure, you spend your government money, thats anotherg you ca. About 10 of these. Let me mention one i am very passionate about. Subsidies. We have 1. 2 trillion in subsidies in the world. Much of it, in rich countries. Direct not in direct. Another 180 or so billion dollars in agricultural subsidies. Much of which is distorted. We have another amount forfisheries. To reduce the over fishing of our oceans. We can havelion in subsidies that are actually distorting trade environment and so on. Why do we have them . Those resources to helping developing countries finance the transition into net zero . Here we are wi amount. We talked about it here, along with the carbon price and tool we can use on the trade side to incentivize Good Environmental policy. Our members at the wto are working very hard in oking at some of these issues and how they can approach being as helpful as possible to the environment. Let me stop there. I could speak on this forever. Those who think trade is a problem, no, trade as part of the solution. And the tools are there if you want to use them. Mr. Lincicome it is incredibly frustrating to hear that Biden Administration on the one hand talk about the need to get greener and more renewables and on the other hand putting tariffs on solar panels and stuff like that. Dr. Okonjoiweala i dont want to mr. Lincicome i know. Dr. Okonjoiweala i do want to say one thing, the wto is firmly supportive we have nothing in our rules against governments trying to do the best to mitigate Greenhouse Gas emissions and get to zero. We are very supportive. I think the question is, when you put in to ensure that they are not policies that are keeping others out, that are anticompetitive or protectionist. If you Incentivize Research and innovation, thats fantastic. That will bring us newof dealing with Climate Change. Without trade, you cannot use the you have in the world. If you take away trade trade has been really instrumental in getting these technologies defused all over the world fidiffused all over the world. You cannot get rid of trade. Liome countries are decoupling, growing faster while emissions are declining. Its a good type of its happening faster in poorer and developing countries because of the Technology Dissemination certainly something to be discouraged. I dont think we are doing enough. We have time for one more question. I am embarrassed because it is a trade lawyer question. Im going to ask it anyway. [laughter] so, we do know, the system as i noted has long been considered the shining example among lawyer types of multilateralism gone right, it is effective, slow and imperfect to dissolve trade disputes without it escalating outofcontrol protectionism or actual fighting and worse. One of the more depressing and surprising things is the dispute settlement sm particularly thanks to some efforts of the United States has been sidelined. The appellate body remains nonfunctional. Ill put it that way. And now we have 29 appeals that are wthey have been appealed but since there is no appellate body, they are sitting around. Do you think this impasse is just a trade lawyer problem . Or is it actually having an effect on pat nations trade policy . Is it discriminatory action . Then to get really wonky for a second, what happens to those 29 and perhaps growing appeals if we do ever get a resolution . Dr. Okonjoiweala yes, i think for too long, the wto became defined by the dispute Settlement System. But you can see from this discussion there is so much going on in the organization on so many other fronts. Its one of the most interesting places to be. But the dispute Settlement System, theres no doubt it is the crown jewel. I do agree, there is none other like it inyou also have to accept, if you are going to make multilateral agreements, not having the forum for those agreements, accountability could beit does undermine the credibility of the agreements. So to continue to have agreements, at ae violates them, you can do anything. It does speak to the credibility. I agree with that. That is why it is essential we try to reform the dispute Settlement System. So the criticisms the u. S. Had have some validity. I think so. I think theres some validity to those criticisms. The system needs to be looked at and reform. But that is what you do. You dont shut it down. You reform it so you can still have a credible system. Because of what you said, scott. Imagine if everyone starts dog unilateralit hurts everyone it will hurt everyone. It will hurt the u. S. It will hurt china. It will hurt the countries even more. Thats not what you want. Lets look reforming, taking seriously the criticisms the u. S. Posed. Why does it take so long . 90 days to get through a i dont want twhatever that is put before an action, but before the panel. Put bsometimes it takes much longer than that. Some of the cases being brought are much more sophisticated and complicated than in the past. But it should not take that long. Making case law those ar some of the criticisms. I want us to look at all the criticisms and see how we can do away with it. The developing countries also have criticisms. They feel the system is not accessible to them. It is too costly too complicated. Lets also change that. What i want to say now is, that reform is ongoing. I first want to correctly orrect the impression that nothing is happening at all. It is two levels, the panel and appellate body on. 12 panels are sitting. Members are still bringing cases to the disputet is functioning. But it goes out to the appellate body because that is not functioning going into the void. What will happen to those will be decide we reform the system. The dispute system are happening now. I want to commend the u. S. For participating in and ng we should try to reform it in a wle to all members. Including the u. S. The u. S. Has brought the most cases. To the Settlement System. About 51 of them. The u. S. Also had the most cases brought against it. About 86. It has lost quite a lot of those. That is whatecwe should reform the system to work for everyone. And shutting it down isead it is a big challenge for everyone if we dont have a place where you can adjudicate the disputes. I do want to say one thing the dispute Settlement System had a lot of alternative ways of settling disputess. What happened over time as people becal. As soon as there is a dispute there is prohibition for members to talk to each other mediation, arbitration thirdparty involvement all these things are there. But they started not using those mechanisms and going strght to the court and the appellate and the dispute settlement mechanism with the appellate body. I think that is also not rig have begun using other alternatives much more. We have had several p3, i think 11 have been accepted without even going to the appellate body. There are several disputes in which members are trying to talk to each other to mediate. China and australia, for instance, that went to the dispute Settlement System. They are talking to each other. Through mediation and direct dialogue, they are settling thewe should use the dispute Settlement System in full, with all the mechanisms. There is another interim arbitration system thats been started by the e. U. And several other that belong to it as an alternative. So we now have several avenues an instruments that can b those as well as a reformed appellate body andement system. Lets not kill it. Mr. Lincicome i do think it is a great point. When the appellate bod problems first began, there was a legitimate concern that i held as well that it would totally shut down the system but itconsultations, getting revived the first stage of the panel process. I want to open up the to the audience. Please wait until you have the microphone. We will call on you as we get through the q a. Why dont we start here on the right . Thank you so much scott great toee you dr. Ngozi okonjoiweala. Thank you for this wonderful discussion and this opportunity. Vp for International Policy at the National Association of manufacturers. It was great to see you with our ceo last march ineneva, we were talking about the waiver and the opposition to the expansion of the waiver to covered therapeutics and diagnostics. Will undermine innovation and undermine our shared goal of having those therapeutics and diagnostics. We need to respond if we need to respond to thenext level health crisis. One of the councils have been meeting multiple times on this issue. Any updates you can share on those discussions . And as we look ahead theres going to be a lot on the table how the discussions could your perspective. Mr. Lincicome trade folks use a lot of acronyms, just so everybody else in the audience knows with that, please. Dr. Okonjoiweala ok. Do you want to take or three . Why dont we go to her in the middle, in black . Hi, dr. Ngozi okonjoiweala. To cannick knnenny a. , the u. S. Secre theres some sort of concern about the concept of french during. French friendshoring. I wonder if you could expand a bit on what your views are on that going forward. Dr. Okonjoiweala he is on friend dr. Okonjoiweala views on friendshoring. Mr. Lincicome one more. You in the middle. Hello, im sharon freeman. I was very interested in your comments about deconcentrating the supply chain. One thing id like is, if you know me, you would know ill have worked in a lot of countries 120 of them, and i see degradation in a way of capacity in many areas and sectors in various developing countries. To deconcentrate the supply chain, there needs to be better Quality Control mechanisms, for instance, you mentioned covid during covid, we learned there were like 84 suppliers in that chain in different countries. But its difficult to be sure that the quality is being controlled. It is directly related to the capacity of manufacturers in other countries. Im wondering what advocacies wto might be playing to develop the capacity and certain other countries so that they can be a part of the supply chain in certain other countries so that they can be a part of the supply chain. Mr. Lincicome thank you. Dr. Okonjoiweala ok. Thank you. First on the trips waiver question, this has been a challe industry believing that the waiver to intellectual to allow those who want to manufacture some of these products in their pharmaceuticals for instance will undermine research and innovation. I want to make it clear that we have strongly believed that we needIncentivize Research and innovation. Because if we didnt have that, we would not have had the development of new vaccines that helped humanity during this pandemic and all the other new things even for green products. So that is clear. The question i there actions that need to be taken when we have emergency situations for instance, thatlso impact humanity . The World Trade Organization houses the intellectual property agreements of the world. This is why this question is coming. During the time of the covid 19, there was this issue of access to vaccines. Many countries found they were behind in the queue. They did not have access at critical times when they needed the vaccines. By the time they got them, there was skepticism, it was too late and so on. There was an argument of, could there be a waiver, so countries cld manufacture . We found a compromise. This had been raging for more than a year, 10 months. More than 12before i joined. Meanwhile, the pandemic was raging and people were dying. We looked at the agreement. There were ways to introduce flexibilities in it, on a temporary basis that would allow countries access to be able to manufacture those medicines overwrth is called a waiver. But what we introduce ourd are really more flexibilities. They argued this should extended to vaccines andtherapeutic s and diagnostics. That is whats on the table now. Within the general counsel of the World Trade Organization we are not clear in terms of agreement. Developing countries have not given up. They are still insisting there needs to be this waiver. Developed countries with p harma industries are insisting that this would undermine research and innovation. So we are stuck. The International Trade center of the u and did some hearings and work on this. But they dont give the recommendation. It presents a very objectiveand balanced case. And you make up your mind what do you want to do with it . That is where we are. It is not off e table. I would again urge all parties to look for a compromise to this. Hand, like i said, we dont want to undermine innovation. On the other hand, we have to think, what do we have an emergency and people are dying in the world, when the technology is there any way that the pharmaceutical industry can forwardto make sure that access is improved and available . That is the kind of debate i think we need to have and come up with. Not people feeling theytoare poor. Mr. Lincicome on friendshoring. Dr. Okonjoiweala because of the vulnerability of supply chains during the pandemic, as i said, the idea of friendshoring, lets not be over dependent of course of the u. S. China tsions that are very open and apparent, e. U. China tensionsm u. K. China tensions, everyone is looking at supply chains with friends, h ence the frontshoring. I stated the case that i believe there are some ies. While supply chains have been resilient, they have been some vulnerabilities. This issue ofis one we need to look at. The issue is where to locate them. Theres one reason we need to look beyond friend shoring. Who is our friend . I always ask that. A friend todayight become a nonfriend tomorrow, if there are regime. Someone you think is a friend today might be a nonfriend tomorrow. Sometimes, it is about interest, not friendship. Second, i question that. I think the second reason has to be because of issues of Climate Change. That is the biggest threat we face. If we want to be resilient in the world, we should think to locate supply chains in such a fashion that if something happens, a climactic event would be less effective in the world than it wouldve been if we again just concentrated in certain countries because they are friend. That is why ie vietnam and indonesia and india and i want them all to develop. Make no mistake. But im saying, business has fallen into this china plus one strategy, we will have another set of concentrations. Ot be wise for the world. Europe is also a friend. But can we have the supply chains be chains be more resilient . Yes, look to your [laughter] on the degradation of capacity, when we ask for the de concentration of supply chains business is very good at makingou decisions about where it should locate. They are doing it already. All we are saying to businesses is, dont have tunnel vision. Rtain parts of the world and developing countries latin america and africa, are perceived as being very risky so we wont go there. Meanwhile youve got conditions there that are very proficient to your producing. We are saying, please move to these places but maintain the same quality. Those places can give you the same kind of quality that you can see in others. Morocco is a part of the aviation supply chain. That is what people do not know. Bangladesh is a big part of the textile supply chain. But they could do much more. Quality. By deconcentrated, we are not saying go where the capacity is Companies Need to maintain the same high quality that is demanded elsewhere. Just because you move to a developing country it doesnt mean anything goes, with regard to labor being properly compensated the quality of thethe Environmental Issues, attention to Carbon Emissions we do elsewhere. Im with you. For the World Trade Organization , we have the capacity to help with quality issues. Yes, developing countries trying to improve the quality of the products, trying to strengthen their standards so they can better enter world markets. We have the International Trade sector also which is an offshoot of the wto that also does that kind of work. We are there to help. But Big Companies dont really need us. Businesses have the capacity and accountability to make sure that quality works. Mr. Lincicome excellent points. Businesses on their own will do a lot of that, too. We have time for one more question. All the way in the back er. Maybe we can take two more. My question is more atlevel. You danced around the subject. For the last century trade embargoes were considered a temporary exception. League of nations in italy. U. N. In south africa and rhodesia, the embargoes. But in the past 10 years trade embargoes haveore common, as a manifestation of National Security policy within many of the largest trading countries. What is clearly happening is a merger between National Security policy many countries and trade policy is slowly occurring and an embargo is a manifestation of your National Securitythe question i have is if this trend continues and expands as it seems it is doing now, is this something that they wto secretariat should resist and object to, is this something that the secretariat should ignore should embrace, and if you embrace it will you start firing economists and hiring g National Security issues as you deal with trade policy . Thank you. Mr. Lincicome we will do one more upfront one more, up front. We have to wait for the mic. Thank you. Thank you. I would like to comment on the great job dr. Ngozi okonjoiweala is doing at the wto. Considering the ups and downs downsides of globalization, how canrld trade Organization Support emerging economies the World Trade Organization support emerging economies tresilience in order to ensure that no economy is left out . Is align emerging economies or emerging economic realities and he and technological enhancements to enhance globalization . Because there are benefits to everyone. Thank you. Dr. Okonjoiweala thank you. These are two tough questions. Mr. Lincicome right at the end. Dr. Okonjoiweala on trade embargoes, weve noticed an increase in prohibitions and restrictions export and import restrictions. U look at import restrictions since the height of the Global Financial crisis in 2009, they have been countries, as leaders, that they need to show an example. But we have import restrictions now to the level where they are almost covering 10 of world imports. That is allowed. We have been strongly advocating if we want free trade, we need to really look at loosening some of doing away with these restrictions. Particularly with the en the war in ukraine started. A lot of export and import restrictions started coming and. The members, i must commend them. They have been trying to remove several of these. Im agreeing with you that we are seeing some signs the increase of these restrictions. I dont want to talk about embargoes. What we are monitoring in realime as som the multilateraltem must be safeguarded. We strongly urge now, nationali have to say, countries are the best advocates of what is their National Security and what is in their interests. We are not generals at the World Trade Organization to pronounce on that. This is one of the issues also with the dispute Settlement System. As you mentioned, we have to be careful. Security obsession becomes used for everything then everybody will have recourse to it. Itll totally undermine the system. To that extent, we cant run away from it. Its really up to the countries. We need a good dialogue at the wto among members. They have to talk to each other about the agreements, whether they are adequate, and what to do going forward. That will hopefully come as we try to reform the dispute Settlement System. We dont want a situation in which these issues are used to undermine the system. If i start it, anyone can wake up and say, i dont allow this to be exported to another is something nufacture something in your country our country says no,t is in our National Security interests that we keep it right here. Then what happens . That will break down the World Trading system. So yes, you are absolutely right. We want to encourage our members to talk to each other. That is the one thing that the world trade organirwe have several committees set up. Im proud to see the world im proud to see. The world does not know how many disputes are resolved in these committees. So we hope that we can encourage more of that and be able to deal with this. Let me remind everyone again 75 of world trade is taking place on World Trade Organization terms. Its like the air you breathe. People just take it for granted. Ok . World trade is going on. But when it unravels, we will have the kind ofthat we had before the Second World War era, in which people said no, this doesnt work. Lets create something better. Lets not unravel what works. On the issue of developing countries, and how to help them integrate better into the worldg system, that is something of great concern to us at the wto. Developing countries feel they have not gotten out of World Trading system enough. The Famous Development ground fell through and never happened. There are still feelings about that. But lets move forward. What we need to do is move forward and see, what are the new agreements that could be beneficial to developing countries . What are the flexibilities existing agreements that can be had that would be more helpful . There is something in the World Trade Organizationspecial and differential treatment which allows developing countries to have flexibilities in implementing agreements, and more leeway in being exempt from some of the scriptures that exists. Beyond that, there are new agreements that could be beneficial to these countries. Are there flexibilities . Developing countries are asking for some of these possibilities now and it to the 13th ministerial because they feel this will enable them to industrialize faster. This will create more policy space so they can do better. So we actively are working on several of these requests by developing countries to see if the membership can agree to support them. But difficult on others. But also has a do with the issue of developing countries has to do with the issue of developing countries. This is another chapter. I came into the World Trade Organization very interested. We have multilateral organizations where we know there are four organizations. Of who was the least developed country . We have that at the u. N. Too. Low income, middleincome upper middle income. These are world recognized. But at the wto, it was a selfdescribed system. Now that system, you know, there are issues in it. Because you have big countries china is a developing country someof the other some of the other welloff countries are developing. So there is a question about it. That also does bring a question mark when developing countries are asking for certain flexibilities. But, let me say this, during the 12 ministerial, we had a situation where some of these developing countries, including chined back and said, we will not have access to these flexibilities. Because we dont need them. And thats what we are trying. We have agreements where those who dont need them can say we dont need them. And then allow those who are pooreally needs a benefit. I think if we have that approach, we can help developing countries. Let me endy saying this reglobalization we are urging is for the benefit of many developing countries. So why should we not receive some of these supply chains . Why should they not relocate in our countries . Im glad to see if you go to the european union, they are strongly supporting that. Increasingly c minerals, for instance. They are very important now. Their processing and exploitation was very concentrated before in china. There is an attempt to deconcentrate a lot of them in the african and latin american condiments. There are strong deposits of this. But the new way of doing it is to not go there and go and extract this to be processed elsewhere develop the whole supply chain there. Because they also have countries, many they have clean hydrogen, venergy married with critical mineral development. What can we do the whole supply chain there . Havee . Train people . The e. U. Is willing to put some money into it now. Win situation for everyone for some of these supply chains. Thank you. Mr. Lincicome the u. S. Can reauthorize a system of preferences as well. If anybody in congress is wahing. Anyway, thats enough. Weve gone over. I really appreciate this excellent discussion. Great questions as well. For those watching online and youre interested in all this stuff, go to cato. Org to rewatch the video. I do hope that you can stay engage well. You. Dr. Okonjoiweala thank you. [applause] mr. Lincicome one last note, please stay for a second. She is on a tight schedule. We will have lunch on the second floor. Please join us. [indistinct chatter] [captions Copyright National cable satellite corp. 2024] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. Visit ncicap. Org] announcer a major snow storm is forecast for iowa. Cspan spoke with one resident taking advantage of the weather just days ahead of voting. Theresv justin, is this the best weather around . It is. This is our third year coming back to this spot. We lovewe live south of des moines, in indianola. This is the hill that they always want to come to