Accessing u. S. Banks, and the use of the u. S. Banking system. The committee is chaired by charles grassley. It was moderated by senator chuck grassley. I reconvene our hearing, i gave my Opening Statement yesterday, so i do not have anything to add to it but i have a few housekeeping things to take care of. I am disappointed that the two hour rule was invoked to shut down this hearing before we could hear from mr. Router r yesterday. He has traveled from overseas to be here today to testify about russias efforts to manipulate the government media. This is an important topic to discuss. If the other party is truly serious about getting to the bottom of the russian interference investigation, they should hear them out. I thank you hear very much for changing your travel plans to be here. This committee very much appreciate your thing is to stay here today. I am going to introduce items into the record, three in number. The first is a statement by the president of the Human Rights Foundation where he alleges that 2and others uncovered a billion corruption scheme involving venezuela government and the Foreign Company laundering money through jp morgan. He claims that the Foreign Company hired companies which dossierss years containing false information regarding the whistleblowers involved. It planet slanderers news items, and intimidated journalists reporting on of the corruption scheme. The second item, is an article by lee smith which illustrates the brave new of manufactured news for higher the third item is an article in the New York Times titled soviet veteran who met with trump jr. Is a master of dark arts. It describes the the activities of the russian foreigns named in the agents registration act complaint. So, without objection, those will be included in the record record. I in the would like to introduce in the record, a senator who has a constituent who would like to submit written testimony about his experience with the two companies for the record. He may do sotion, within one week from today. I also want to insert a letter from Airline Pilots association, alleging that the u. S. Travel association has not properly registered under fair pharaoh. Fara. Without objection, i would do that, now, let the Ranking Member make any statements she has, then i will introduce and square our witness. Thank you very much mr. Chairman. Today our committee continues its investigation into the fara act. We heard from representatives in the Justice Department and the fbi along with doj inspector general. That discussion, confirmed that there is a significant problem with under enforcement of the law. Engageuals who lobby and in Political Activities on the health of foreign governments, and interests in the United States, do not register in a way that works with the Justice Department. This is because right now, there are no real consequences for failing to register. I think we should change that. Heard as we also yesterday, the Justice Department relies heavily on finding out about potential violations by monitoring press reports and other public information. At times there were 4 the department receives complaints alleging that individual companies have failed to register their lobbying and other Political Activities on the health of foreign interests. From one suchhear individual william browder. I do not know mr. Browder that it is my understanding that in july 2016, he filed a fara complaint alleging that a number of individuals failed to register their russian backed lobbying efforts against the y act. Ski act magnitsk among those names in mr. Browders campaign is the russian lawyer, Natalia Veselnitskaya who met with the Trump Campaign in june 2016 with the understanding that she would offer incriminating information into hillary clinton. That mr. Understanding browder is very familiar with another russian figure who attended the june 9 meeting. Because of their work to oppose the magnet ski act magnet skimagnitsky acts. His experience with these pacific individuals and his rod or understanding of how the russian government operates, may well advance the committees understanding of what motivated that meeting. At least i hope it will. I look forward to hearing from our witness today and with that i yield this. Thank you, i will first introduce mr. Browder, ceo of an Investment Firm based in london. Russian members of organized crime engaged in Corporate Identity theft, stole the Corporate Identity of three Hermitage Companies and used them fraudulently, obtaining 230 million. Hermitage filed a criminal complaint with russian Law Enforcement and in response to russian government the russian government assigned the case to the very russian officials involved in the crime. Mr. Magnitsky, mr. Browders lawyer, uncovered the fraud and was eventually jailed and died under very suspicious circumstances. Worked with the u. S. Congress to pass the magnet seek to punishitsky act the officials involved with this and other human rights abuses. Would you please stand serve, and do you swear let me start again. The you confirm that the testimony you are about to give before the committee will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you god . I do. Thank you, i would like to have you take several minutes, if you can we would like to save time for questions. So lets say, seven to eight minutes. Grassley, Ranking Member feinstein, and the committee, thank you for giving me this opportunity to tell my story about russian about the , the vladimirgn Putin Campaign to repeal the magnitsky act in washington dc. I am william browder, founder and ceo of Hermitage Capital management, once the largest Foreign Investment advisor in capacity, iin that discover we discovered massive corruption, in the companies that we invested in, to bite to fight the corruption. We started researching how they went about how the oligarchs went about the stealing and shared that research with the international media. This naming and shaming campaign, had some positive effects on the share price of the company and it was also it made russia a better place for some. Of time. For some period of time. But you can imagine, exposing millions of dollars in malfeasance upset the people benefiting from it. The steeple had very close connections with the putin regime. November20 5 2000 five, i was expelled from the country and declared a threat to National Security in response to my anticorruption activities. In june of 2007, might Moscow Office was raided by 25 officers from the moscow interior ministry, and 25 more officers raided the office of my american law firm. In those rates, they thought to get the stamped seal certificates of our Holding Companies and with those stamped still atstamp certificates they were able to initiate Corporate Identity theft. Serged a young man named magnitsky who was 35 years old as my lawyer to investigate who did what and how we could stop them. He investigated and came back with an outstanding include conclusion. Which was that the purpose of stealing our companies was to try to steal our assets which they did not succeed in doing. However, they did succeed in stealing millions of dollars in taxes that we paid to the russian government from the russian government. I should point out that the theft was not of my money or my firms money but the russian governments money. Tax then, a large largest tax refund fraud in russia. Serge and i were both and i were both convinced that putin would not have allowed his own officials to steal from his own country. We figure that if a brought it to the attention of the highest of there were these in russia, then the good guys would get the bad guys and that would be the end of the story. We wrote criminal complaints to every branch of the russian criminal justice system. I went to the newspapers and rush it se andrgei gave testimony to the committee which is known as the fbi. It turned out that in putins russia there are no good guys. On november 24, 2008, a few weeks after magnitsky testified before officials. The same officials he testified before arrested him and put him in pretrial detention where he was then tortured to get him to withdraw his testimony. 14y put him with cells with inmates and eight beds, left the lights on 24 hours a day, no heat, no windowpanes in december, in moscow. He almost froze to death. They put him in a cell with no toilet, just a hole in the fall in the floor. They moved him from l to sell in the middle of the night, hoping to get them to withdraw his testimony and get them to sign a sign confession that he stole the 230 million under my instructions. He refused to do that. The pressure increased and after six months, his health deteriorated where he developed terrible pains to his stomach, lost 40 pounds and was diagnosed with pancreatitis and gallstones. He was scheduled for an operation in august 2009. A week before his operation, they promptly moved him to a maximum security prison considered to be one of the most awful presence in russia. Most significantly for magnitsky, there were no medical facilities there. His health and he went to constant agonizing pain from his pancreatitis. They reached they refused him medical treatment. He and his lawyers wrote 20 different medical requests and all of them were either ignored or in some cases denied in writing. After a couple of months of this horrible torture, sergeis body could no longer hold out. On the night of november 16, he went into critical condition. The prisonht, authorities did not want responsibility for him, so they put him in an ambulance and sent them to a prison with medical facilities. When he arrived in that prison, instead of giving him putting him in the emergency room, they put him in an isolation cell change to a bed. He was being by guards with rubber but dont batons until he died. He was 37 years old. He left a wife, and two children. I got the news of his murder this morning the morning of the 17th and i have made it my lifes work since then to get justice for serge magnitsky. Unfortunately, justice is impossible to get in russia, they circled the wagons and exonerated everyone involved, the people who were most implicit. So, i searched for justice outside of russia, coming here to washington. I spoke to senator john mccain, telling them the same story that i shared with you today. They came up with the magnitsky act to freeze assets and then visas of the people who killed him and people who commit other similar human rights abuses in russia. The act passed, 924 in the senate. In december 2012. As well as the house. President putin was absolutely infuriated by this. He then in retaliation, banned the adoption of russian orphans by american families. That the reason he took such a drastic step was that he was one of the beneficiaries of the 230 Million Dollar fraud. We have traced some of that money to an account of a man radugin who was implicated in the Panama Papers as being one of his nominees. They put magnitsky on trial three years after they killed him and put me on trial as a codefendant. In addition to that, a number of people having killed have been killed in connection with the case. Seven people have died, either from murder or sis wishes circumstances, or suspicious circumstances. Nemtsov, oneboris of our allies in fighting for justice for magnitsky, coming to the european parliament, was that she was lobbying for the magnitsky act and was murdered in 2015. His protege, car mores the was poisoned. Urza he went into organ failure and barely survived. The magnitsky family lawyer, was thrown off the fourth floor balcony right before he was going to testify in court about this. I have had numerous threats from up and down the russian government about my life. It is not just violence that the russian government does, but it is also political violence. It came in the form of a Massive Campaign launched last year in washington. A number another of individuals and tell a false they in order to have magnets me act repealed. , chrisage Glenn Simpson engaged andell of number of other people in the was of the engagement in addition to a being campaign the question is p you. When the lawyer came to this country, what year was that . I believe she came here in 2014. Continue. Sorry that i went over, i am just about done. These in addition to this being morally reprehensible, none of these people registered as Foreign Agents under the Foreign Agents registration act. My firmogether put together a complaints to the department of justice where we listed what they did, who did what, and the fact that they were not registered as Foreign Agents. 2016, and i in july am here today to tell the story, clarify any details, because i believe that the fact that these people were allowed to run around on clintons agenda, without any on putins agenda, is something that is to be stopped in the future and i think the rules governing this should be strengthened. Thank you very much. Testimony,u for the yesterday we announced that we would have seven minute rounds of discussion, but we cut that down to five because of the two hour rule. So each of you will have seven minutes. Mr. Browder, in your written statement you said that the lawyer who met with Trump Campaign officials had hired gps to computeon conduct a Smear Campaign against you and magnitsky. You said that he contacted a number of newspapers to spread false information. Mr. Simpson told the media that he only did some research as Litigation Support. Propaganda and publicity work for a foreign principal requires legislation as a Foreign Agent. So it is important to understand whether mr. Simpson was pushing negative information about you in the media. I have several questions along this line. Could you explain exactly how mr. Simpson manipulated the media just near you and undermine the magnitsky act, and how you know about that . Browder Glenn Simpson was calling a number of journalists, ditching a story to the journalists as the magnitsky act was being debated in congress to rid the story he was pitching, was that magnitsky had not been murdered. That he died of natural courses, and magnitsky was not a whistleblower, he was a criminal. That the story i had told the u. S. Congress, was incorrect thereforeitsky and should be repealed. That was the story he was pitching. I know because he was a number of journalists pitched by him, came to me and asked me about it. He was unsuccessful for the most part in getting the story written, but it does not take away from the fact that he was trying to get the story published. Support,ot litigation it is impossible for me to see how it could be Litigation Support because had those theies been written, during litigation that he was supposedly supporting, any juror reading those stories wouldve been disqualified from being on the jury. So, that could only have been the purpose of manipulating and trying to change the legislation here in washington. Grassley your testimony to not today outlined a multipronged effort, do you think these agents were working together in a coordinated campaign or were these separate and isolated efforts, and how do . Know jacob jago fusion do you know about gpss efforts how are you aware that they were in the interests of the putin government . To answer your first question, this entire effort was the lawyeruspices of who was organizing it. It was paid for by her client, which was the katsev family in russia. The patriarch of the family there, is a senior Government Official in russia, former transport minister of the Moscow Region. He is currently Vice President of russian railways, the secondmost important date company after gaffe from gaz prom. Could you repeat the second part of your question . Grassley what basis do you have a believing that gpss efforts were on behalf of the russian government other than in the interest of the companys holdings . That fusion work gps was doing to repealed the magnitsky act could not have had the holdingto company because the company was under investigation by the department of justice for us pacific Money Laundering statute. Even if they had been successful act,pealing the magnitsky a one and a million shot, even if they had been successfully would not have had any bearing on the case against them in justice. It is hard to see how that would have been opposing the legislation. Grassley there have been media reports alleging that some of the stolen magnitsky money went to a Russian Investment Bank m called renaissance part capital. What can you tell us about that and what is the companys connection if any, to the russian government . Browder it is a Russian Investment Bank headed by at the time of this crime, by a man named stephen jenins jennings, a man from new zealand who lives in london. A dust and other official was a british citizen of russian staff ofnd at the Renaissance Capital, they trumpeted the fact that they had fsb officersormer and their staff. I should point out there is no such thing as a former office the officer, it is a lifetime commitment. They determined that 13 million from the crime that are gay magnet the uncovered, x does, and was killed over went to Bank Accounts at Renaissance Capital in the united kingdom. I think you said this, but let me make sure, about Renaissance Capital connection if any with the russian government. Browder it is connected to the russian government through atff the exfsb employees Renaissance Capital. Grassley this is important, the same bank, Renaissance Capital a bill clinton 500,000 for a june 2010 speech in moscow. They began the application process for a russian Government Owned Company to acquire u. S. Uranium assets. Takeover was this done by the committee of Foreign Investments and secretary Clintons State Department was. Ne of the approval authorities Renaissance Capital reportedly rating to them. Question, you can take what time you need to answer did you meet with anyone from the Justice Department when you filed your fara complaint in 2016 . If so, who initiated the meeting, who you or them . Did they ever followup with you on the information you provided in your complaint . Whetherhey let you know they had acted on your complaint . Browder i had to contents with i had two contacts with the Justice Department. One of them was an in person meeting here in washington to follow up with the complaint. In both instances the was initiated by my firm, and other than providing information, i have no knowledge of what happened afterwards. Grassley senator feinstein. Feinstein thank you very much. You are a very brave man, and i respect that and your loyalty to mr. Magnitsky. Having said that, mr. Browder, it is hard for me to understand why the magnitsky act still sticks in the crawl of russia craw of russia. And what the lawyer would have to do with that. That is not going to be reversed. It was no chance. The foot ande that government would understand that. Thathat is the nature of feeling obsession, whatever you want to call it . Browder i believe there are two reasons why this is Vladimir Putins single most important Foreign Policy priority. The first reason, is that we have evidence that he is his nominee, sergei verdugi received some of the proceeds of the clot crime. Feinstein the crime being what they took from your office . Yes, some of that 230 million. Vladimir putin, i believe him to be the richest person in the world, i believe him to be worth 200 billion dollars. Money held all over. His regime has been come committing crimes to get that money so he does not want to lose it by having it frozen. He is personally at risk due to the magnitsky act. It is a personal issue which is why he sought back. In order to get that 200 billion, he has had to ask lloyd more than 10 people working for him he has had to force people working for him torture, kill, take peoples property away, to get that money for him. And the only way to get them to do these terrible things, is to say if you do them, there will be no consequence. You will enjoy impunity. As a result of the magnitsky act, he can no longer there and t this impunity, because we have created consequences in the west. I will not understate because that was his of the magnitsky act, not only does it frees the assets held in america, but you also get blood on the treasury sanctions list, and no bank in the world was to be in violation of treasury actions. Bank, whether it is in south korea or dubai, if your name is on the list they close your account on that day and you become a international pariah. Feinstein where in your lawyer, comes the into this . The kate is a lawyer of siv come family which is a company that was identified as having received some some of of 230d amount million. They came with natalia ve selnitskaya to coordinate their communities and she became the point person for the russian government in america to fight the Money Laundering charges, and to fight the magnitsky act. In fighting the Money Laundering company prednisone spent millions of dollars in legal fees to save 13 or 14 million that has been frozen by the department of justice. The incentive to spend that money goes well beyond their personal interest. Feinstein she was present on this meeting in june 9. What interests you believe she had in the meeting and what goal did she want to achieve . It is unclear the into it andlear that the interests goals in that meeting was to repeal the magnitsky act. She has said it and it has been said by people who attended the meeting. Feinstein you believe or have any evidence or knowledge that ons was a quid pro quo behalf of Vladimir Putin, that if there was a repeal of the magnet the act, magnitsky act he would do these things . I do not have evidence or direction knowledge, however i know how the russian government behaves, and the Russian Security services. Ask, ask theke possible future president of the United States to repeal the legislation. Thereould not have gone without having something to offer in return. What they were willing to offer in return, i do not know. Whether the offer made any sense to the other side, i do not know. What i do know is that the kgb, the fsb, the Security Services would have studied the targets and really worked on the offer that they were providing. Workedin has she ever directly for the russian government . Yes she has. When and where . She has worked for the fsb, the Successor Organization to the kgb in the Moscow Region am a i do not have the exact date. Feinstein thank you. Grassley let me say, that it would be on our side senator graham, and on our on the democrat side, it will be senator blumenthal. You mr. Chairman. I want to thank the committee for allowing me to go next. You cannot repeal a law in the United States if the congress suggests. It is really incredible that mr. Putin would think that talking to the son of the candidate of the president would be able to repeal the act. I assure you mr. Browder that there was no way that congress would agree to repeal the act. I personally experienced a very minor indication of president clintons anger in congress and those of us who passed the act. While traveling with my family, and trying to go through passport control in st. Petersburg a couple of years ago. My wife and daughter made it through, and i did not. Have no doubt thatpersonal to n and he is trying to lash out at those who participated in passing it. I am glad that we passed it. It is hard to distinguish between purely commercial enterprises and government and in many places around the world, gazprommple gas from and others are owned by the russian government. Many countries around the world, where you have monarchies and autocratic governments, in places like china where the communist party basically embedded in every otherwise appearing commercial enterprise it is impossible to separate the two. In russia, as he pointed out, there are 100 billionaires who own about a third of the countrys wealth. Is truly and possible you do not become wealthy in russia without being directly tied to the russian government. Many of these oligarchs have branched out of russia and began to buy western companies and commercial interests including press and media outlets, sports manufacturing companies, Financial Institutions and technology companies. These companies of course, come to congress and try to lobby is lobby us on behalf of these industries without the knowledge that they are in fact are presented in of nationstates adverse to the interests of the american people. Should we be concerned be more concerned that we have then we have been to this point with russian meddling in our elections, but with Foreign Countries around the world with interest adverse to the United States, using these socalled commercial enterprises which are nothing that a front for a ntry and a nationstate should we be more concerned than we have been about the domestic and foreign holocene in the United States . Absolutely. You have really brought up a important point especially when it relates to russia or any autocratic regime. Countries, ther way that the world works is that the president of that country rich, andple to get get a share of the wealth. Of the people. Then they rely on those people to the states bidding do the estates bidding. Where that may not be appropriate or they may not want to show the governments face. Russia uses a system like that and there is documentary evidence of people who have gotten rich through Vladimir Putin and then done lots of Foreign Policy work, not just in america but also all over the world. Putins to further agenda which is adverse to decency and democracy and liberal thought. So, yes. Anare obviously in open and free society. And some of them take advantage of that, sometimes unbeknownst to us. Do you think that these fast forl entities, national enterprises, and people like Vladimir Putin should be forced to register under the fara act and lobbyist disclosure act . I think it is absolutely essential that they do. There is that transparency about who these people are talking to and what their interests are. Issue we have a free society, free press, democracy, open ideas, First Amendment and etc. They are taking advantage of that. The only way we can keep our free society is having absolute heresy. If everyone knows who it is that is doing the talking, we can calibrate whether that person is credible or whether their interests should be taken into the account if they are operating on the basis of an adversary. Who these to know evil are working for when they come to Lobby Congress to my possible to it achieve the status in russia, and be beyond putins rich reach . No direct eye trying to be totally independent and transparent and honest no, i was someone who tried to be totally independent and transparent, and they write you off. Yes they tried to kill me. That is the consequence. You mentioned that russian opinion, howyour large of a community of u. S. Company and a blurs, have high is interested in avoiding fair regulation . Thater i would imagine there is probably a big majority of the lobbyist in washington who would be glad to take the money from russia. I dont know how many of them would be happy to not register as Foreign Agents but there is a Big Community of enablers and people wanting to get the business of being an enabler for russia. I have seen a lot of that here in washington. While we are focused on russia today, this same means can be used by any other country whose interest are not in line with the United States government . That is correct. There does not seem to be any consequence for registering. As ar not registering Foreign Agent and it seems to me that that is the problem. Thank you for your courage, mr. Browder. Thank you. Grassley sometime, if you ask me, senator whitehurst, if you ask me i will tell you why i call you white hearse white st sometimes. Hur there was an fbi agent with the same name with those what was going on in the fbi, i protected him and he got fired as every whistleblower does. He sued the fbi and got a Million Dollars for his work. Lab down at 40,000 the marine station to do the right work that the fbi was supposed to do. I offered to represent senator whitehouse. I am glad to hear it is a positive association. I have a couple of questions. First, i believe corruption is a world plagued at not a local phenomenon. You very grateful to you may have done more to fight corruption worldwide than any other individual and i appreciated. Appreciate it. Senator grassley and i have a piece of legislation that would require Corporation Transparency so that the United States does not become the sanctuary for International Criminals and kleptocratic. We welcome the support of any other Committee Members who are concerned about these commercial entities that are fronting for other folks. While the president is highly unlikely to be able to undo the magnitsky act, i do believe that it is in the power of the president to remove people off the list. Veselnitskayas approach, to the trumps, had a potential goal within reach, that did not require undoing the magnet the act. Indeed, the magnitsky act. Indeed, we are looking at trying to close off an opportunity so that there is not a executive back door to dlistingdel isting people from the list. So, can you give a capsule description of what the relationship between putin is and his oligarchs, set such such that the threat of sanctions to oligarchs is a threat to putin . Browder that is an excellent question. When we did was originally fighting with the oligarchs when he first came into power, because they were stealing power from him. In order to regain the power of the presidency, in 2003, he arrested the richest oligarch in the country, a man named mic khordokovsky and put them on trial. And you go on trial in moscow, there is a 99 conviction rate. They had him sit in a cage and allowed Television Cameras filming the richest man in russia sitting in a cage. Manine if you are the 19th 19th richest man in russia and you saw that, what would be your reaction . You would not want to sit in a cage. So, after he was convicted, they went these oligarchs went to president putin and said what doing it need to do to not sit in a cage. He said 50 . Not 50 for the government of russia, but 50 for Vladimir Putin. So he became the richest man in russia at that moment. They are feeding him money and doing his political adding and therefore he wants to make sure political bidding so he wants to ensure that they can be able to travel and behold his money for him. So, if you want to get Vladimir Putin sanction the top oligarchs as well. Whener and over again, they issued a statement about the young Donald Trumps meeting, they discussed the meeting with Natalia Veselnitskaya being about the adoption of russian children. On july 10 been treated how the conversation was primarily about adoption, then later on talked about a conversation about a discussion of adoption. When the president interviewed the New York Times, with the New York Times he said it was about adoption. When the president s soninlaw, kushner, in july 24, in a Committee Statement said he was talking about an issue of the ban of u. S. Adoptions of russian children. Russian official, a conversation with america about adoption, is a conversation really about what . About the magnitsky act. Rnhostturnhost in turn . If youre talking about adoption nobody was talking about adoption. They were talking about the repeal of sanctions for the so that russian torturers and murderers could freely travel and keep their money in america. Effect, codes in for russians for talking about lifting of sanctions. That is correct. Reason anybody in the president s circle would not know that . I do not know for sure. Do you imagine that they would not know that . I can say for certainty that nobody was talking about adoption. No, you have had to become a sleuth of sorts to go through a lot of this stuff, hiring investigators, working with investigators, and you have a that red notice describes some of that investigative work. We have a phrase here that says follow the money. Following the money is the key to all of these types of situations. How useful are tax returns as an investigative tool in following the money, as you described . I am not sure about tax returns, what i can tell you is that tracing wire transfers to organizations connected to anyg any public foreignpolicy objectives of the russians, will tell you a lot. To give an example, if an american has been engaged in such transactions, and if he is truthfully he has truthfully filed tax returns, then they would also provide evidence of those connections, would they not . Presumably if the tax returns are half full disclosure, then that should be an area of interest. In the sentencing the sentence where you addressed where you said that addressing the sanctions was the single most important Foreign Policy pursuit of russia, you also mentioned their use of banks in america. That rang a bell with me, why did you mention russian use of banks in america, and what would you like us to do about russian use of banks in america . Basically a love the money that comes out of russia, is money a lot of the money coming out of russia is money that is the proceeds of crime. If sense and dollars go through american we have an opportunity here to investigate seize money that is the proceeds of crime. Thank you. I will think the Ranking Member and chairman for having this hearing. It sounds like fiction but unfortunately maybe it is true. Let us break down where you are here. You believe that gps should have registered as a Foreign Agent because they were lobbying for the russians. Yes. The proof the dossier on President Trump, by the british spy, one of getting it to the fbi you believe they were working for the russians. And in the in the spring and summer of 2015, they were receiving money indirectly from a russian Government Official. Ok. These were the people who were trying to undermine donald trump. By showing that he yet nefarious ties that he had nefarious ties to russia, that is what you are saying . When i am saying is that they were working to undermine the magnitsky act. Fusion gps products, apparently they hired a guy to look into trump. Right . Right. And the guy they hired was trying to tell trump that he was trying to tell the world that trump was compromised by the russians. If you look at the report, i have not looked at it carefully. Well that was what was said in the dossier. Why is it important . The russians are behind fusion gps who are going after trump what is the russian lawyer named . Natalia veselnitskaya. Natalia veselnitskaya. Is she working for the russians . She is. So, in june 2016, allegedly she is meeting with don junior, in the and the premise of the meeting was russian government is behind trump, and you need to meet with these people, they can help your campaign and donald trump says, i love it. And they met with this lady. Is that what is supposed to have happened in june question mark yes. So she is working with the russians, and she is trying to communicate with us that the russians are on trumps side to rid have an email to that effect. Is it common trumps side. You have an email to that effect. Yes. Is it common for russians to play both sides . They are in the business of Vladimir Putin is in the business of trying to create chaos everywhere. So you have looked at the discourse and you believe fusion gps is actually backed by the russians. They are trying to find dirt on trump, and you believe that the russian lawyer Natalia Veselnitskaya was working for the russians and was introduced to don junior by the Business Partner saying that the russian government is behind you and they want to help you. Meet with this lady. That is kind of interesting. So, wikileaks, dnc, the podesta have anything from the russians actually stole the emails . I rely on 17 intelligence agencies of russian government. Is that something you think they would do . Of course, i think the russians ink they can get away with anything. Graham do you know Paul Manafort . I do not. He represented russians in the ukraine. I am familiar. Are you familiar with the fact that he was intricately involved in the putin world . X yes. The you think you and yes. Would think that he i cannot emerge imagine that they would not if he was intimately connected to the puppets to ukraine. These think there is any chance at all that the meeting in june, that nobody called the Russian Intelligence Services to explain what went on . Browder im sorry, who is calling who . The meeting in trump tower, what is the likelihood that the meeting took lays and the people in the meeting did not call Intelligence Services about how it went . With hundred you percent certainty that the Russian Services would of been aware of that meeting in advance as they were plotting it out, it wouldve been we spent studying how to best achieve the results of the meeting. The purpose of the meeting was not about adoptions that to get the trump world friendly to the idea of repealing the magnitsky act or to remove people from the ofac list. Yes. Rexam 100 certain, that they probably did not think adoptions i am 100 certain that the trump team were not aware that adoptions meant the magnitsky act. I do not know anyones state of mind other than the russians. Can you imagine the russian lawyer not bringing up the magnitsky act . She did. She brought it up, it was her main do you think her biggest motivation was to making sure americans can adopt russian children or to repeal the magnitsky act . Asked to repeal it. If youve to repeal the magnitsky act. If you follow her twitter feed, when of the people in the room is known by Russian Intelligence Services to be friendly to their cause metaphor. Browder correct. What is the likelihood that you have one meeting and there was no followup between the Russian Intelligence Services and somebody who would be sympathetic to their cause . I do not know. It all depends on we know what the russians i know what the russians intentions were, i do not know how those intentions would of been with the. We know that don junior said that he loved the idea of getting help from russia. Browder mr. Browder it depends what they offered in the meeting, i guess. Now, senator hirono. Mr. Browder, you have given us a firsthand putin russia into putins russia. Russias interference with our 2016 of election and the connection with the Trump Campaign is a tangled web, to say the least. How important do you think it is the mothercracy that investigation continues, free from political pressure from the president . Believe, based on intelligence reports, that russians did hack the election. It is crucial to understand, if there was any assistance from any american citizen in doing that. It is crucial. Sen. Hirono doesnt come as a surprise deal that russian interests were collecting compromising information on someone . Trump, toe, candidate gain control over that person . Mr. Browder Vladimir Putin is a former kgb agent. And like i said, there is no such thing as a former kgb agent, there are only kgb present kgb agents. They enlist people with no empathy or morals. They get them to go out and influence people using one of two ways, with bribery or blackmail and extortion. They figure out what you can bribe somebody with, and what people are scared of, to blackmail them. That is there modus operandi. It is entirely plausible they wouldve looked at all people who potentially influenced leaders in america and try to figure out if they are probable or extort a ball. Extortable. Sen. Hirono that is why the firing of sally yates, and the raising of concerns over Trumps Campaign operatives in their dealings with russia. As you described, this is a russiansrandi for the to collect incriminating evidence on their target, so they can gain leverage or control over them. Sen. Hirono this is exactly what they do. There is a russian word, which means to collect compromising information about the target. Russians do that on a regular basis. They have been doing it on me for seven and a half years. They do it on everybody to find a way to influence the people they want to influence. Sen. Hirono you mentioned you have been a target of putins russia ever since they kick you out. Is this a daily concern for you, that you need to have security and people always alert to your safety and that of your family . Mr. Browder yes. The russian government has made a number of threats against my life, they have threatened me with death, kidnapping. The russian government has tried and failed three times to have me put on interpols most wanted list so i could get arrested while traveling. They tried to extradite me from the u. K. , where i live. They have sued me for libel, they have made movies about me. There are people working inside the Security Systems on the bill browder story full time, trying to destroy me in whatever way they can. Sen. Hirono we learned this morning it is not just the , ital of the magnitsky act is highly unlikely that would happen, but there would be efforts to weaken the act and try to figure out ways to get people off the Treasury Office of foreign asset control. Are there things we can do to make sure that kind of loophole is not created under the magnitsky act . Mr. Browder i like senator whitehouses idea of making it like when a person is added ofthe list, make it an act congress, not an executive decision, to remove them from that list. Sen. Hirono thank you. Were furring we were referring to the russian efforts to veselnitskayas efforts repeal or weekend the magnitsky act. How does that interfere with the 2016 election . Mr. Browder it is not clear to me how them two are exactly related. We know what they wanted, which was to have the magnitsky act repealed. Thought the probability of that was higher with their preferred candidate, then with of their less preferred candidate. I am not 100 certain they would have made the same attempt with the democratic candidate, hillary clinton, if there was any opening or receptively there. The russians are nonpartisan when it comes to interference in russian u. S. Policy and affairs. They would gladly talk to, try to bribe and blackmail anybody. Describe a you scenario or environment in which they are totally ruthless and china achieved there and. Someone,ed weakness in they will go after that person and figure out how to gain leverage over that person. After you contacted the department of justice regarding noncompliance, have you received any updates from them regarding the complaint you sent to them in july . And at the time of the complaint, did you have reason to believe any individuals involved had met with any Political Campaign people . Mr. Browder i received no update since july. We know for sure that that part of their campaign was running around capitol hill. One of their biggest one of the people they were able to convince to go along with them is a member of the house of representatives from orange county, who they have met with on a number of occasions, and toutingbeen effectively or spreading their propaganda around the house of representatives. Sen. Hirono we had a hearing the ay about sarah have you thought about the juxtaposition about these laws and how registration has dropped significantly since the passage of the lobbying disclosure act . Any ideas how we can make sure important . S mr. Browder there is a loophole you can drive a truck through in the lobbying disclosure act, which says you do not have to are aer using fara if you company. As we have discussed here, there are a number of companies acting as proxies in the state. We need to close that loophole. Sen. Hirono thank you. Senator klobuchar. Sen. Klochubar thank you for being here, mr. Browder. Thank you for uncovering the facts. I can tell it is difficult to and tragicthe life death of your friend and someone who was your colleague. I think the story needs to be told. It was told when the magnitsky act. Mccain,er senator senator curtin, and others. It has to be remembered. The only way we can change this Going Forward and make sure it does not happen in america again with our own elections is by telling these stories and getting to the bottom of the facts. While a lot of been devoted to talking about Natalia Veselnitskaya i tried it, based on your own experience in russia, do you have any other comments on the other person attending the meeting . And what youound, believe he was independent of the meeting . Formerwder rinat is a soviet intelligence officer. Intelligence offer officer in russia. It is like the hotel california. You can check out any time you like, but never leave. He became an american citizen. Many people had contact with him and he described on a regular basis as being a shady and shadowy character. Im transparent about what he does. But he seemed to have gained the confidence of a lot of people in washington. Effectively a proxy for interests of the russian government here in washington. Sen. Klochubar you talked a lot about with other senators they how when you hear talk about adoption, in fact of was code for the repeal of the magnitsky act. Caucus, the adoption having been firsthand involved in those issues, those children were used as a pond because Vladimir Putin was so angry about the passage of this act. Can you talk about that issue, in terms of what it has meant . You must know people and have contact with people who were trying to adopt. Mr. Browder this is one of the most heinous parts of this whole story. As you know, as an adoption as expert, they never let americans adopt healthy orphans, just the sick ones. Go with openld arms and hearts and taken children with hiv, down syndrome, heart conditions, spina bifida, bring them to america come nurse them to health, love them. Was looking for the most sadistic thing he could do in retaliation to american interests, and depicted this one. Which was effectively what i would call a hostage situation. The orphans who were left in russia, many times with a medical issues, do not survive. Sen. Klochubar the other tragic part is, many families including some from my state, were in the middle of adopting a second child, a brother or sister of the first one they already had. Those kids held those photos, knowing their sibling was going to come join them in america. And then they couldnt. Mr. Browder it is the most heartbreaking thing, on both sides. On the cited these children, who had no future after that. And on the side of the family, who had painted the bedroom, had everything ready to go. There were 500 families in the middle of this thing. To have those repercussions and do something so heinous, what is it about this act, besides International Embarrassment and the lost money . What do think would motivate this group of people to be so involved in trying to repeal this act . What do you think is the main motivation . Mr. Browder because it affects putins money personally. He is afraid of having his money frozen and seized. This is how they all act. Targeted sanctions are 100 times more upsetting to the russian kleptocracy then abroad sanctions. It is very simple. In russia there are like 1000 people that have all the money. You do not have to sanction the country, just the individuals. You end up with huge overreactions like this, and this heartbreaking adoptions attack. Sen. Klochubar exactly. In terms of all this, when you follow the money it is hard for people to understand why this meeting what occurred, why you have lawyers and people devoted to try to overturn this act. In fact, this is about money. Senator whitehouse asked some questions about this himself. Are you concerned the kremlin and their associates may be using Shell Companies . I amlked about banks, but focused on the idea of a Shell Company as we try to unravel this and figure out where the assets are. Anytime you can use Anonymous Companies to hide Beneficial Ownership, the russians flock to it. Not just the russians, but all caps to kratz kleptocrats. There is a movement to make Beneficial Ownership fully transparent. Placesthe few remaining in the world where you can still be anonymous is the United States and in certain states. It is an important piece of work to do to make sure the u. S. Does not become a haven for dirty money from places like russia. Sen. Klochubar my last question is the Foreign Agents registration act, the subject of this hearing. Yesterday i asked the Justice Department and fbi whether they believe that the law should be updated, including advances in Technology Like social media, and to provide prosecutors with allowinvestigative to fara violators to turn over documents. Is there any way the law could be better updated for what we are dealing with, like Foreign Agents influencing our laws . Mr. Browder it is straightforward to me. People that have been registered as Foreign Agents are convicted, prosecuted, and imprisoned, everyone will in the future register as Foreign Agents. Sen. Klochubar very good, that is straightforward. Wentw senator hirono through how you personally have been attacked and were willing to make it your lifes mission to avenge the death of your friend. And also, to stop this from happening to other people. Meeting withnor of senator mccain several times. What a brave man. To think he has been poisoned not once, but twice. You yourself must be concerned about such risks. Thank you for coming before this committee. Senator blumenthal . You, iumenthal thank want to join my colleagues in thinking you today and admiring your courage and tenacity in the face of evil. I do not think there is any other way to characterize Vladimir Putin and what he has and, both to magnitsky countless others in russia and around the world. I want to focus on stopping the money. When i was a federal prosecutor, we sometimes did wiretaps. Mobsters usingar codewords for dollars like tomatoes and fish. In this case, adoption was referring to the thing of value, which for Vladimir Putin, was lifting sanctions, which meant money to him. And for the other participants in the meeting, it was referring to something of value to them, and the promise to them, made in emails was that they would have damaging information, dirt on Donald Trumps opponent, hillary clinton. Is that a fair summary . Mr. Browder absolutely, what has been described. I would caution you in believing anything that the russians either promise in advance or describe, because the russians are liars. I am very confident about what they were asking for. I am not so confident about what was being offered. Something was being offered, but i would not believe the russians they mighticements have put in front of them to get the meeting. Because anything couldve been offered, in reality. Sen. Blumenthal is there any doubt in your mind, knowing as well as any american, how Vladimir Putin operates, that there, veselnitskaya was acting on behalf of Vladimir Putin in the russian government . Mr. Browder there is no doubt. Sen. Blumenthal is there any doubt in your mind that rinat her,tshin was aiding acting on behalf of Vladimir Putin in the russian government . Mr. Browder there is no doubt. Sen. Blumenthal when my senator Lindsey Graham asked you about reporting back to intelligence agencies, these two individuals, natalia and akhmetshin, where acting on behalf of Vladimir Putin in initiating a potential agreement, legally probably a conspiracy, involving the russian government and donald trump junior and the other participants in that meeting, correct . Mr. Browder that was the intention of the russians. Sen. Blumenthal in your view, wouldnt it have been appropriate and proper for the participants in that meeting, americans, to report to american Law Enforcement authorities at that meeting . Mr. Browder if i was sitting in their shoes, that is what i would have done. I cannot comment how they choose to conduct their lives. Sen. Blumenthal it certainly would have been appropriate and proper for someone respecting than National Interests of the United States to report to the fbi or appropriate Law Enforcement official . Mr. Browder that would have been my actions. Sen. Blumenthal in terms of following the money, the rehearsedave a well playback with officials abroad. Them . T step in enlisting before,der as i said they either used bribery or blackmail to get people to cooperate with them. As you are talking about, the former chancellor of germany forme a big advocate getting a large, regular payment. Their nature to do that for the people that are susceptible to bribery. Sen. Blumenthal if you are in Robert Muellers shoes, would you look for potential financial ties between members of the Trump Campaign, who are alleged to have conspired with the russians and undermined our russians and the financial ties is certainly would be relevant, wouldnt they . Mr. Browder if i was investigating the story, i would follow the money as a first step into the investigation. Sen. Blumenthal he would look at Financial Connections and relationships between people involved in the Trump Campaign those three individuals at that not, and russians only outright bribery, but also potential investments with russian companies, because they represented Vladimir Putin couldnt, correct . Mr. Browder anytime we are involved i have been involved for seven and a half years tracing the money from the money Sergei Magnitsky was killed over and all the work we have done we have traced money. If we find someone we believe is suspicious we see where the financial flows go to them. It is an obvious first step in any investigation to look at the money and connections. Sen. Blumenthal veselnitskaya and akhmetshin also, in terms of following the money, use various representatives here, in addition to themselves, did they not . Mr. Browder they did, they used several people, the potomac square group, all u. S. Based, washington, d cbased firms. Sen. Blumenthal would you recommend this committee hear from them . Mr. Browder indeed. Mentionednthal you in the area in Donald Trumpo junior, he claims the information he has that could harm Hillary Clintons campaign would come from the crown prosecutor of russia. There is no such position as crown prosecutor, it is widely assumed Rob Goldstone was referring to uri, the russian prosecutor general, and close ally of Vladimir Putin. Are you familiar with them him . Mr. Browder yes, he is one of putins closest confidants. He is most compromised by the magnitsky affair. He was deeply involved with Natalia Veselnitskaya, working hand in glove with her on this whole initiative they had launched in america. Not just in terms of donald trump jr. , but lobbying congress. Again, he would have a financial and political interest in the magnitsky act, would he not . Mr. Browder he is a potential magnitsky designee, someone who should be targeted under the magnitsky act. Given he and his family are very wealthy people, they would potential be very exposed to be added to the magnitsky list. Sen. Blumenthal finally, was notveselnitskaya just any russian picked from a crowd. Points Vladimir Putins person in trying to repeal the magnitsky act. It was his prime Foreign Policy interest . Mr. Browder correct. Senator durbin. Sen. Durbin are you familiar with mikael friedman . What do you know about him . Mr. Browder he is one of the original 22 oligarchs who came became rich in russia by banking, oil, telecom, telecommunications and other businesses. You say in 2003 had a trial, putin it was a thinly veiled message oligarchssge to the to play with me or ghosted in a cage. In 2003, Vladimir Putin is reported to have flown to london to whether celebrate or note the fridmans oilail company with british petroleum. Are you familiar with that . Mr. Browder very much so. Sen. Durbin he is involved in so many different business dealings. He ise Different Things doing in so many places, many in russia, others outside of russia. What would you say about the suspicion there was some communication between alpha bank and the Trump Campaign, which was reported and has been debated back and forth as to whether it was true . Mr. Browder i only know about that from what i have read in the press. From what i have read in the press, it is not enough information for me to make any judgment. Based on what you know about the background you have described to me, it would give you some measure of caution, would it not, in dealing with alpha bank and mr. Fridman, from the perspective of our own National Security, would it not . I would say any russian oligarchs, i would not single out alpha bank, all russian oligarchs should be dealt with with extreme caution. Their wealth is totally dependent on their relationship with Vladimir Putin. Sen. Durbin let me tell you why i asked the question. You have a man that wants to head the Criminal Division of the department of justice. Committeed before the recently. He had alpha think as a client, after the election of donald trump and after he served on the transition team, the landing team, when it came to the department of justice. It raised a lot of red flags from where i am sitting as to why he would make such a poor decision. If you were seeking to be part of our government, and complicated by the fact he said he would not disqualify or recuse himself from investigations into russian involvement into the last campaign. Mr. More i read about this fridman, he is one of the wealthiest oligarchs in the nation, a billionaire. Alfa bank, which was represented through a law firm, at least raises a question in my mind. Am i overreacting . What is your thought about this . Mr. Browder as i said before, any russian oligarchs should be dealt with with extreme caution. It all depends upon the ethics of this individual. I do not know his loyalties to my former client. It would be wrong for me to make any judgment about it. Sen. Durbin understood. I am trying to piece out a few things. To understand this as a relates to. Fusion can you tell me about their role, why the dossier was created and what they hope to achieve . Mr. Browder i only know about the steel dossier and this whole thing from what i have read in the press. I am just a bystander in that part of the story. With on afamiliar firsthand basis is fusion gps and Glenn Simpsons role working on behalf of the russian government to overturn the magnitsky act. Took very much compromise their integrity. Sen. Durbin you are saying you do not know about a connection between Steele Fusion and the dossier . Mr. Browder sen. Durbin correct. With mr. Trumpng jr. And Paul Manafort and others really raises extraordinary questions about what the russians were trying to achieve with the that meeting. You have any other indications of meetings that took place, similar meetings involving the Trump Campaign or family . Mr. Browder i know nothing about any other meetings with the Trump Campaign or family. I do know the russians were all over the capitol hill and hearing congress trying to get meetings with members of congress to try to make the same type of pitch. Unsuccessfully, in the end. That they were here, en masse. Sen. Durbin i will cut my questions at this point. Ink you for coming here. I deeply regret what has whoened to mr. Magnitsky, was trying his best to resolve the challenge they put in your path. I joined with my colleagues in the creation of these sanctions. About my own stories russian and mr. Putin to tell, i do believe the case is solid and i think you for coming before us today. Round. Ends our first now the second round, i am last questionthe you answered. The question you answered, did you meet anyone from the justice 50 make a complaint and did the Justice Department let you know whether they had acted on the complaint. My followup is, did you have any indication that it was being actively investigated or taken seriously and why you think nothing was done when you talk your template about the Propaganda Campaign. Your complaint about the Propaganda Campaign . I have worked with Law Enforcement on other issues here in the United States in relation case. Magnisky we tend to see a different type of interaction them when something is not being done. My assumption is nothing is being done here. The Human Rights Foundation said fusion manipulated the media to smear whistleblowers. In that statement they urged the committee to probe fusions fusionsn particular willingness to pay journalists in exchange for the publication of business smears. Do you have any reason to suspect that fusion may have taken part in paid to play tactics, offering money to journalists that benefit their clients. I do not have any hard evidence to present in that area but i suspect a number of journalists and one in particular here in washington was operating so far outside the bounds of normal journalistic integrity that there must have been some incentive for them to be getting it. This has been a great hearing and i appreciated. Fusion gps is a firm that does Opposition Research for clients on a casebycase basis. Kind of like a lawyer taking up a client and at the end of the job they separate. Correct . I dont know their overall practice, i only know their practice the situation i am involved in. In your case, they took on russian interests as a client and the cap was to apply pressure and Opposition Research in order to undo the magnitsky to fusion gps do you know who commission that. I do not. You mentioned the russians blackmail,bribery or once they have a business person in a foreign country where they want to exert influence, are they perfectly willing to use the threat of blackmail about their own bribery scheme against of that individual . The moment you enter into their world you become theirs. They have been ways with the character of continued bribery and the stick of exposure and blackmail. And that is how every single one of their relationships works and thats how they grab people and keep them and once youre, once you get stuck in with them, you can never leave. So under investigating Financial Transactions and understanding Financial Relationships is critical to this . Indeed, yes. Let me ask you a 50,000 foot question. Lets pull up to the highest levels of kind of policy. Corrupt kleptocrats and International Criminals make themselves rich in criminality and corruption, but then at some point they need the legitimate world in order to protect and account for their stolen proceeds. How good of a job is the legitimate world doing about fencing off the corrupt world rather than facilitating it and aiding and abetting it, how well is the United States of america in particular doing in that role . The answer is that the am i correct about the first thing, that they need us . They need us desperately. As easy as it was for them to steal the money in russia and other places, it could be stolen from them. They like to steal the money, commit crimes, kill people in the corrupt world. And income here in the legitimate world. With the rule of law and with all the Property Rights and keep their money in the legitimate world. How good of a job is the legitimate world in particular doing about cleaning it. The legitimate world and america in particular are failing in an absolute way in keeping them out. And in fact, theres such a financial incentive in the legitimate world for enablers to take their money and to help them, enable them to keep their money here and to protect them that its a completely lost game. Id note that the American Bar Association of all things has stated its opposition to our inCorporation Transparency bill which would appear to be driven by that group of enablers who are also members of the bar. Well, the lawyers are some of the worst enablers in these situations and they somehow say, well, Everybody Needs a Legal Defense and theyre their justification for working for the most heinous people on the planet. In the long run, between freedom and democracy and corruption and unitary power, what is the effect do you think of freedom worlds participation in aiding and abetting corrupt world . Well, basically were eventually going to become the corrupt world if we dont stop, there, this is a war of ideology between rule of law and criminality. If we allow all of the criminal money to come here then its going to corrupt us until we end up like them. If youre an ordinary russian or an ordinary member of an african kleptocracy, just a regular person and you see these vaunted temples of democracy like america actually aiding and abetting the kleptocrats who are robbing your country, how do you think that would make people feel about what we have to offer . Totally demoralized. Thank you. Senator blumenthal . Thanks. Just a few more questions and i want to again thank you because i think this hearing has been one of the most important we have held before the judiciary committee. I apologize for the absence of a number of our colleagues here today. But i think they will be very interested in your story and your recommendation. I want to come back to uri chaika, but a i think hes a key figure for our purposes in this committee and for the investigation of potential conspiracy between the Trump Campaign and the russian. Uri chaika was not just the prosecutor general in russia, he was a close ally and lieutenant of Vladimir Putin, correct . Thats absolutely correct. So when rod goldstone said to his colleagues that information was coming in effect from uri chaika, it was like saying i have Vladimir Putin on the line, correct . That would be the impression. A russian expert would draw from that. And anybody familiar with russia would know and Paul Manafort was familiar with russia that information from uri chaika was in effect dirt coming from Vladimir Putin and the offer of it was coming from Vladimir Putin. That would be the impression i would have if i, if i got that email. And so with Natalia Veselnitskaya coming to the meeting as an agent of Vladimir Putin and the offer of information coming almost directly from Vladimir Putin, there could be no doubt that the russian government and Vladimir Putin were in effect coming to this meeting, correct . Well, again, i can only speak for how i would react to that information and that would be my impression. But you have had a lot of experience with the russians. Yeah. And so youre familiar with their m. O. And your expert testimony here i think is worth a lot to this committee and that would be your impression and there would be no doubt in your mind that not only Vladimir Putin knew about it after the meeting as senator graham has elicited from you, but also before the meeting. Yes. And in coming to this meeting, would Vladimir Putin expect to necessarily conclude a deal right there . In other words, have the agreement to lift the sanctions done in return for the information being deposited on their desk . That isnt the way hed operate, is it . No. I mean, if he was trying to lift sanctions he would look to see whether there was an appetite and whatever he was offering was accepted and then it would have ended up in many future meetings. He was looking for a sign that the Trump Campaign was open for business, correct . I would imagine that he was looking to see whatever, with whatever he was offering whether that offer was looked at favorably or not. He was looking for a positive sign that they were open to deal further . I would imagine thats what he was looking for. And in terms of the likely scenario afterward, there would be additional contacts, possibly meeting, other communications. Well, if they had, if this had led to interest, im not aware of any further meetings other than the first meeting. You wouldnt be aware of it because you dont have access to any of the classified information in the intercepts, any other information that might be available to the special prosecutor. Thats correct. The question about the effects of the sanctions, maybe you could describe for americans who are wondering why did these sanctions matter to billionaires . In other words, they have the money. Theyre on a list. They cant open Bank Accounts in bank of america say. But why should that matter to these oligarchs who are worth billions and they can still travel the world and do everything they want to do and theyre still wealthy . It really does matter. It matters because they cannot only just not open Bank Accounts in america. They cant open Bank Accounts anywhere in the world. No bank wants to be in violation of the u. S. Treasury sanctions. Furthermore, no Foreign Company, no International Company wants to be in violation of treasury sanctions and so they can no longer transact business with anybody, so effectively they become a financial leper, financial pariah once they get on to the magnitsky list. If you have 1 billion and you cant keep it anywhere and you cant buy anything from anybody and you cant do any business with anybody, you wont be able to make any more money for sure. You wont be able to invest your money. And youll be afraid that your money might be frozen in some countries. You cant go to london or paris or new york and stay at the Expensive Hotels and put it on a credit card or cash a check or, any of the normal things that oligarchs and billionaires, you cant do that stuff. So then they have to find ways around it. In fact, we have discovered that some people on the magnitsky list are effectively breaking sanctions by creating nominees who do all their stuff for them. And we have in fact shared that information with the treasury ofac division to say that the magnitsky sanctions are being evaded by certain people on the magnitsky list. Is it your experience that ofac is sufficiently aggressive in enforcing the sanctions . So far, i think that the guys who are being put on the list are running circles around ofac. So the answer is no. Thats correct. Sanctions have not been sufficiently enforced and i might add, thats my experience as well in overseeing other sanctions relating to iran and russia that there is a need for far more aggressive enforcement. Its fine to their names on the list, its fine to have a law on the books but if its not enforced its dead letter. Thats correct. Let me conclude with two more questions, couple more questions. You mentioned that once the russians in effect have you, they dont let go. Yes. And they can have you financially. Yes. So that anybody doing deals in russia or taking payments or benefits from russia can be had in effect . Well, they have to have you compromised in some way. In other words, if youre just doing arms length business with them and youre ready to give up your arms length business, they have no leverage over you. But if, the moment that somebody enters into any type of ill legitimate situation with the russians, thats the moment that the russians have you. As you know, there are allegations and we believe theyre under investigation that the president s former National Security adviser Michael Flynn took payments from the russians could hold over him and they would, correct . I dont know the consequences of that. If there are real consequences to him of that buildings in russia that required permits and the permits were promised through channels that might be elicit or in ways that might be improper, that would be something that could be held over the head of an American Business man, correct . If there was clear evidence that the russians could have created of an american violating the foreign corrupt practices act that could be used as leverage and held over the heads of an american. Thank you, thank you mr. Chairman. Before i adjourn the meeting, one last thank you and i appreciate very much more importantly your willing to stay overnight so you can appear again today. I think i have heard from my colleagues a very valuable witness that you have been. So i thank you and god speed. Thank you. [captions Copyright National cable satellite corp. 2017] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. Visit ncicap. Org] coming up live today on his band three, former white house ethics director will discuss the six months it work in the Trump Administration and his decision to design. Iranianiscussion on public opinion. The nuclear agreement, and the Trump Administration. That is live from the Atlantic Council starting at noon. And the conversation about the importance of the u. S. Japan military alliance. That is live at 2 30 eastern. You can follow all of these events live on cspan, cspan. Org, and with the free cspan radio app. Way toid not cut our surpluses in the 1990s. We did not tax our way to serve us in the 1990s. The house and senate in republican hands at the time came together for welfare reform and spending restraint to keep spending flat while the economy grew and revenues, to spending. That is how we saw surplus. You cannot cut your way to a balanced budget, you cannot tax your way to a balanced budget. You need to grow your way to a balanced budget. Mick interview with mulvaney, the director of the office of management and budget tonight at 8 00 p. M. Eastern. Washington journal is next. We get an update on the Senate Health care bill and take your calls. And the houses in this morning at 9 00 eastern and will work on intelligence programs for 2018. Lighthouse coverage here on cspan. Live house coverage here on cspan. Morning on this friday, july 20 8, 2017. In just just a few hours ago, the senate narrowly defeated the skinny repeal by a vote of 4951 with Arizona Republican senator john mccain casting the deciding vote. Tobrought a dramatic end efforts by republicans to revamp and serve care law, as a seat for President Trump and gop lawmakers who campaigned on the promise to repeal and replace obamacare. Today, we are asking for