Watch the communicators tonight at 8 00 eastern on cspan 2. Washington journal continues. Host sharon mcgowan, director of strategy at lambda legals hit the discussed efforts against workplaces permission for as we start the conversation, can you explain who kimberly highly is. Tech was an employee at ib college it was going to work the same as you and i every day. She founders of repeatedly denied promotions and started to understand it was related to the factor employer the fact her employer saw her with her partner in the parking lot and started understand this was tied to the fact that she had a samesex partner. That was what was prohibiting her from being able to advance in her workplace. Host how did lambda legal get involved . Filed the lawsuit on her own behalf. One of the things that land illegal does is keep an i on the lamba legal does is keep an eye on the legal landscape. We saw her case had been dismissed at the earliest stages of the proceedings by District Court judge who did not even let her get to that next stage race on their view that the law simply did not cover her circumstance. We reached out to her and asked if she would be interested in working with us to bring her case up on appeal to the seventh Circuit Court of appeals in chicago. At that point we took on her representation. Host with specific law are we talking about here . The civille vii of rights act of 1964 which prohibits dissemination on the basis of a number of protected characteristics. In this case dissemination on the basis of sex. Host this suit isnt necessarily about expanding those protected classes under title vii . Is about a class protected within title vii . Guest that is right. We basically asked the court to ognize had kimberly been and had a female partner none of this would have happened. Sex discriminat triggered to discrimination by her employer. The law was already on the books protecting her situation. Host where are we in terms of job termination against lgbt individuals . Is already protected in many areas . Guest we have a number of states that actually have explicit protections under state law for Sexual Orientation or gender identity. But at the end of the date the most important thing is that the federal law im talking about, title vii, only rabbits sex discrimination. For many years the courts those thatt meant were discriminated against because they were lesbians work eight did not discriminate protection under the law. Many people already assume discrimination on the basis of Sexual Orientation is already prohibited. And there is this sort of natural assuming someone going into the workplace my name is sharon is set of sean and i looking all partner why would my employer be able to take the job away from me . We have seen a number of courts recognizing that on a number of different theories the law prohibits sex dissemination actually covers the situation sex discrimination actually covers the situation. Congressuld specifically write a lot to protect against that dissemination . It should be explicit its against the law. One of the things important to recognize is when you have a law that already covers the situation, the fact in the past courts may have thought it didnt does not mean the judges should not be doing the job they have been constitutionally charged with doing. It important to recognize back in 1964 when we were talking about sex discrimination, the position of lesbians and gay men in society was a very different one. We are talking about a world in which lesbians and gay relationships were criminalized and not the circumstance we see today were people are out and able to live their lives and the stigma associated with being lesbians and gay does not exist to the same level. I think it is natural for the own biascognize my may have stopping for interpreting the law and the way it should naturally be read. Thats why we see the courts going back, and just like the seventh circuit did, say wait a minute, we are the ones who wrote lesbians and gay people out of this law that otherwise should have protected them in the first instance. Host sharon the gallon of lamb an of land illegal of lamba legal. Where does this case stand now . She has not necessarily won this case. It was an appeals decision on if she can bring it as i understand. Guest she is now able to go back and go through the process of trying to prove her charge that it was her being in a samesex relationship that was the reason why she was not promoted. The college has insisted that is not what has gone on. They insisted they did not seek to have any more appellate review. Theith every case now burden is on kimberly to demonstrate the fact to support the theory that she asserted in the first place. Host you are also working on the tamika evidence case. Guest very similar to what we are talking but here. She is someone who tried to allege she was discriminated against based on the factor employer believed she was leslie and. Employer believed she was leslie and in part because yet many more masculine mannerisms that perhaps a traditional Woman Working in the georgia system. M, we say the judge say too bad. I dont have an opinion on that philosophy does not cover your circumstance. Hermba legal reached out to to bring the appeal to the 11th court of appeal in atlanta. The court recognized there were ways in which an individual could bring a claim for gender nonconformity, but decided to rely on case law from the late 1970s saint title vii does not cover individuals who were discriminated against because they are lesbians or gay. Host once as you can and once as you cant. Does this end up at the Supreme Court . Guest i think we will see the Supreme Court weighing in at some point. Over the 40 years title vii has been on the books the Supreme Court has weighed in on a number of occasions. What gives me hope and optimism is that on a number of these occasions the court is the face of the argument saying no, no, title vii does not cover that in the Supreme Court says yes, it does. People argued title seven only covers women and not men. The Supreme Court says no, it covers anybody, mentor women who are discriminated against on the basis of sex. One of the more recent decisions from the late 1990, Justice Scalia wrote even if congress did nothing about samesex harassment, the law clearly covers that. In the future the Supreme Court will weigh in, but i think they are likely to allow the lower courts to continue to think about it and in many cases revisit prior decisions rendered based on a stilted view the law does not cover Sexual Orientation. The we are having conversation on a day his old seat is officially being filled by justice soon to be just as gorsuch. Justice taking calls with sharon mcgowan, lance in greenfield, ohio. Good morning. Caller good morning. How are you doing today . Guest good morning. Caller i had a question for your guest. On the story you were telling about the lady, her boss had seen her out in the parking lot with her partner. I was just wondering i have a twopart question. Now, do you guys go and actually find out there was proof that she deserved to be moved up . Maybe she was not doing her work like she could. Hebe he actually, you know, actually did not do that on purpose. Maybe she just didnt deserve a promotion. And the second part of my it a possibility , like,uld be misuse of you are gay or black or this or that. I worked with a guy that was black. And oneired five times time he would clock in and sleep in his car and then clock in and get paid. They caught him and fired him. One time he not the wing off of an airplane and he fired him. He would get to the naacp and get his job back, which was i did not think was right. Do you think there is misuse maybe that these people think they deserve something they dont . And that aside im going to go i my representative because dont know the politically correct thing to say, gay or you imo you think maybe going to use the system to my advantage. Host we will let sharon answer. Guest that the great question because i think its important to recognize in any of these cases the individual actually has to prove what it is they are alleging. Case, we were not at the stage of actually having to put forth the proof along the lines of what you said, that she in fact was qualified for the promotion. Not that somebody else who was more qualified got the job. The judge said im not going to let you get in and try to marshall that evidence. This is the standing we hear about . Guest exactly. Does she have standing . Does the law cover her situation . Even assuming everything you alleged is true, would it be illegal if you actually were able to prove those things . Related to both your questions, is important to recognize simply because somebody has the ability to bring a claim and get into court does not in any way mean that we dont have the burden of proving that in fact is why they were denied an opportunity to be promoted or succeed in the workplace. Obviously litigation is a challenging thing that involves a lot of output in time and money. Im not going to say there is in a Single Person out there in the universe who may have brought a claim that is shaky or flimsy. In most circumstances we are talking about now, this is about whether or not the person has the ability to come into court and try to prove their case. In the past lesbians and gay folks were told sorry. Even if everything you say is true, you dont have a claim under the law. Host will she argued to say she was denied 202 being a lesbians . What case was you make in court . Guest this is why you get your day in court. She has a history of nonpromotion and the history of other positions that were filled. Unfortunately, im not a lawyer litigating the case. Of fact she is not able to have her day in court gives her the ability to sit down and actually question the decisionmakers at the university to get documents that may demonstrate in fact people were agitated about the fact she was gender nonconformist, a lesbian and they did not like lesbian. Part of it will be pulling together the information she already knows along with the information at this point only the Community College knows. That together will develop the case. A lot of times in circumstances like this the facts get developed. There are circumstances in which the defendant in the case may not even themselves know the full story. Perhaps they had a bad actor who did the wrong thing. In those circumstances sometimes the case settles because they realize this is not something they want to litigate because there may have been wrongdoing. Host stephen is waiting, independent. Good morning. Caller good morning and thank you both. Long might it be before we turn this corner . We have turned a couple of big anders before as a country it seemed to work out ok. Not ok. Blacksing out loud, still have to face segregation, and now it is the brown people we are trying to run out of the country. But im wondering if you have any idea how long it might be before we can get around to accepting people for who they goneand who gives a dog anything about who we sleep with, who we partner up with . That should not be anyones problem at all. How long do you think you might be before we get there . Guest that is a great question and i feel like i have the answer to that i should be playing the powerball are coming up other ways to tap into these great skills. I can tell you this. Im extremely optimistic on a number of fronts. We only see a dynamic of two steps forward, one step back. Anytime a group makes a step forward that causes anxiety there is pushed back. I think back when i was a student in law school we were still reading cases about the criminalization of samesex relationships. In the course of one generation we have seen tremendous progress. I think in large part its due to the fact people have the courage to come out and share their stories and be able to explain to their friends and neighbors and loved ones that gave people get married, have kids, go to the grocery store, weight online for gas. The same rings Everything Else the same things everyone else does. It really hurts all of us. I think in the same way we are hearing our friends and neighbors talk about their experience of what its like to have immigrated to this country under dire circumstances. Or what it is like to be a Muslim American doing the same things i just talked about. Going to the store, buying gas, and just wanting to contribute to society. I am optimistic about the fact the decision that we received last week from the seventh Circuit Court of appeals with was a majority of republicans. Republican appointed judges realized the way in which they had looked at the law was unduly constrained and cut out a group of people who legitimately faced sextus crimination. Sex discrimination. On a lot of these issues you are starting to see people realize it is actually not a partisan thing. You had ted olson, a renowned conservative scholar and litigator who litigated the Marriage Equality case from a true libertarian perspective. I think we will continue to see these kind of public discussions happening on a range of issues, but he would not be in this line of work i am in if you are not an optimistic so im feeling good. Host how long has lamba legal been around . 1973, it was founded in so about as long as ive been on the earth. We are so grateful for the support of the donors to our organization. They give us the ability to bring cases on behalf of individuals like camberley kimberly so we can work with them to advance understanding. The thing i tell people is when an organization like this represents you, it does not cost anything but it is not free. Kimberly had to get out of their comfort zone. They are sharing stories and become much more public than i think either of them ever expected they would be in her life. I think thats because they recognize that sharing their story and helping people understand what they experienced is part of what helped change peoples hearts and minds and recognize this is not only a matter of law, that there is a reason the law should cover this. It is an outcome that makes us all stronger as a nation. Host jeff, a republican. Good morning. Caller i just wanted to make a couple of points. I think the Lgbt Community has made a couple of mistakes. Number one i dont how long ago it was ago, by california had a vote. They asked the community if they want samesex marriage. They said no. Immediately they took it to the courts. They overturned it and kept it in the courts. Also, that was wrong. I think if they waited a couple of years, they would have found out california probably turned on its own. If they just waited a few years on these decisions, we would not have the same thing that happened with abortion. The other point i would like to make is the transgender community. I dont think people have the American People are goodhearted people. If they would just take the time and explain to people that i have two granddaughters. I dont want them to have a shower with an individual who has not completed their whole transition to that thing. Butnt know how it works, if they are not completed, i dont want them in the shower with my granddaughters. I will take my answer off the air. Thanks. Guest thank you so much. Let me start with the first one. There are a number of people who indicated that this would all have been better if lgbt people just relied on the political process. Is important to recognize there were a number of states in which the political process was the route that lesbian and gay folks took. Oftentimes after a bad decision from the court. We are a constitutional democracy. There are certain rights that are guaranteed to all of us, regardless of if we are in the majority, if we can convince the majority of people to support our cause. With respect to Marriage Equality, that is one of those fundamental rights we have recognized in our society. I think its important to recognize the Supreme Court weighed in and large part out of asognition that as much hearts and minds were changing, at the end of the day the constitution does not require you to convince every last person in the Alabama Legislature or the Mississippi Legislature before you are able to live and experience the full guarantees of equality under the law. I think in many ways the work that was done after proposition eight in california and in many state legislatures helped prime the public and helped run the country prime the country. At the end of the day the Supreme Court does not exist in a vacuum. There are many ways they can take the pulse in what they do of where we are as a country and are sensitive in terms of their own integrity as an institution for not getting to our out ahead of where we are. At the end of the day their job is to make sure the rights enshrined in our constitution are subject to pop are not subject to popular wins. Its an important conversation to have about different ways and tools a community has to move the ball forward. I think its a fairly important to recognize the role of the in vindicating fundamental rights in our democracy. You are right, this is a conversation were having throughout the country. I think in the same way the folks have come to a great understanding about the lives of lesbian and gay people like hearing the stories of our families, there are a number of transgender boys and girls and their parents who have been out there explaining the reality of their lives such that its harder and harder for people to look at a boy like gavin grimm and say because there are certain body parts he has or doesnt have he should be treated as a girl when everybody in his own class recognizes he is a boy. I think it is something we will have to grapple with as a nation. The courage of the individual transgender men and women and boys in growth out there telling their stories are going to dispel a lot of the anxiety and concern people have because maybe they dont understand what it means to be transgender. Again, i think its important to recognize among our Younger Generation that they recognize a boy like gavin is a boy who should be treated like a boy and then move on from there. Host a lot of calls and not a lot of time. North fork, florida, republican. Guest hasthink this to be honest with all the audience. The real issue with the lgbt thing is not really discrimination. It is not discrimination because it is based on conduct. The law has a right to limit your conduct. The problem with saying whites cant marry blacks is being white or black isnt conduct. When the law is criminalized black people from marrying white people, it was unconstitutional because it was actually criminalizing something that was not conduct. When you get married, that his conduct. He cant marry who you want. The reason why a man and a woman is constitutional as opposed to man and a man is because it is necessary to perpetuate society. And going to a different point with the courts with the recent ring, the recent the recent decision in the workplace, you are forcing people to accept conduct and behavior. That is not a constitutional right. Host lets hear from gary and mississippi, line for independents. Caller good morning. I will not be you up because of her to get beat up by the last couple of colors. I do agree with the last couple of dollars. Callers. I have a tendency to agree with the gentleman before. I have nothing against you or anybody like that. Anave a cousin who is gay, emt. He was a hero in a town of 11,000 people. He saved many lives. 11,000 people in this little town. They ran him out of this little town i am from. Im a straight man. Sed the often made me angry. Angry. And made me where the gayrights activists when this 1011 dozen people actually did something 11,000 people did something . As opposed to a lot of people that dont do anything like any other part of society. I am not beating you up. I think you are a good woman and i have no problem with you. . Ost sharon guest i really appreciate that story. The challenge to an organization da legal is the way we are trying to help people that are contribute to society and doing what we ask every man and woman to do. This is part of one of the challenges we face. First of all, helping people understand there are resources and there is a challenge. In a world where more people have access to the internet we dont do rely on some of the old sources we did. People can go online to the Public Library and find it there is an organization like lambda that might be able to help. At the end of the day an organization like ours can only do so much. Part of that is because we dont actually have laws in all 50 states that make clear it is illegal to discriminate on the basis of Sexual Orientation. That title vii law i spoke about is a federal law. One of the things about federal law is that they only actually reach the bigger employers. Employers over 15 employees. One of the things so important about having state laws and local laws is to make sure that all the employers, all the people in the world recognize this is just not who we are as a society and there are tools that mbda or others have to keep people accountable to what you and i recognize is unfair and we all suffer as a result of anybody being run out of town or out of a job when all the are doing is trying to serve. With respect to the issue about whether or not this is just conduct, the Supreme Court has basically said that is not a distinction that is one that makes sense in this context. It has come up when we were talking about the service of gay military. Ns me in the i would dare suggest my straight brother and sister wake up every morning and dont think about loving their different sex partner as conduct. I think they recognize it as a fundamental part of who they are as a human being that they are attracted to someone that the different sects in the way that different sex. Lesbian just happened to be attracted to someone of the same sex. They said we will not focus on this but its an active you going to the store and buying a brand of serial. This is a fundamental part of who you are in the law will protect that. Host diane, good morning. Caller good morning. Im glad the subject came up. I had to resign from a couple of the lgbt the fact that they need to learn how to behave themselves on the job. They come in recruiting. ,f you dont agree with them you know, this is going to be a problem for other people. You know . Tryingme in recruiting, to get their people to agree bait them. Nd it is a terrible experience. I have worked in a place where they recruited up almost everybody. This is a pharmaceutical plant. I think they have to learn how to behave themselves theyre going on the job. On, i will give you the last minute. Guest i think every american with the ability to go to work, do their job, a good friend, be a good colleague and i have Something Like their Sexual Orientation or gender identity be a barrier to be able to do those things. Any person on the workplace, gay or straight, but not want to see someone harasser discriminated against. We are talking about whether or not there is a law that prohibits this termination on the basis of sex will cover the situation of someone who happens to be dating someone or married to someone of the same sex as opposed to the opposite sex. We are optimistic that not only the courts are recognizing this is fundamentally unfair, but i think increasing number of men and women recognize the law is already there and should address the situation so we can all continue to go about our lives and be good friends and Good Neighbors to each other. Host share in the gallon mcgowan, thank you for your time. Matt walsh will talk about his new book. And our money segment we will talk about the 2017 tax season with nina olson. Thats coming up this morning on washington journal. This week in primetime on cspan, tonight at 8 00 p. M. Eastern, from the National Review ideas summit and washington, d. C. , conservatives discuss hollywood and pop culture. They have a quality of choice with men and women, things that native populations dont have. We have them because we have oil. Like,il you have night at you can fly, you have technology that gives you more choices. Did he change the premise you can Say Something that feels true and beautiful in the world of the movie. Tuesday at 8 00 p. M. Eastern, former u. S. Attorney for the district of new york at cooper union in new york city. Wednesday at 8 00 p. M. Eastern, and holton, former virginia education secretary and wife of democratic senator tim kaine shares her view about public education. I think we have to remember that local ownership of schools is a lot to do with a positive support for schools. Thursday at 8 00 p. M. Eastern, a panel on the Prescription Drug addiction crisis in the u. S. , posted by the university of southern california. They have created things and made a drug for intel you have this and tell you you have this. Are you ever hungry . Everybody is hungry. We have a drug for it. , god, of aggregate some testosterone. Sotomayor justice talks to students at Stanford University about her path to the nations highest court. People go further. It is curiosity that leads you to experience new things, and my lead you to find an interest you never imagined. This week at 8 00 eastern on cspan. Washington journal continues. Host matt walsh, columnist with the blaze to talk about his new book, the unholy
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