Is here to talk about whistleblowers. Lets establish a working definition. What is a whistleblower . Guest we are going to focus on federal whistleblowers and what an official federal whistleblower is is somebody who works within the federal government or previously worked or is implying or is applying for employment and speaks up through the proper channels. Fforded to them different agencies have different channels, but you cannot must always go to a member of congress, the Inspector General of the agency,he office of special counsel and the whistleblowers go through proper channels to report wrongdoing. Protections these pertain only to people in the federal government . Or is very similar thing in the private sector. Guest there are laws that protect private sector whistleblowers and laws that protect contractors with the federal government. Host what is a protective act . Guest it would be to talk to somebody in that protected channel. Its difficult to get a broad definition because there are differences if youre in the Intelligence Community, a contractor, or if you are at dhs. Essentially, you can almost talk to your supervisor, the Inspector General of your agency, the office of special counsel, a member of congress or their staff, and you can also go to the press in certain circumstances. If you make a disclosure of something that you reasonably believed to be fraud based or abused within the agency, that is protected. Host lets talk about the press, because weve heard a lot this week about leaks. Someone who leaks is not the same as a whistleblower, right . Guest it depends if youre talking about information that is classified or not. Talking to the press is protected if, and im going to wrong, exact definition but if there is an imminent threat to Public Health or safety. One of the things we see was leakers is either that they dont think the channels that they have within the agency are meaningful, and we talk about having protections if you report up the chain of command, but that is just one part of the story. Can be protected, but was a blowers are blowing the whistle just for the sake of it. Want to see change within the agency. If they see people going for them who go through proper , they are more incentivized to leaks. If this is a medicament before them who is still if they see people coming before them who dont go through the proper channels, they are also incentivized to leak. Its usually because they dont have confidence and the agency and the avenues provided to them to address their concerns. Host we are talking about whistleblowers and taking your calls. If you have any experience with this, we invite you to call in. What kind of evidence would someone have to provide as a whistleblower . Guest to blow the whistle or to make a claim of retaliation . Host to blow the whistle. Guest i dont know exactly what kind of evidence they need. I think they need to have a reasonable belief that what they are providing and the paper trail is always great. But sometimes, ive heard this person say this, and it was alarming to me. So i dont know if there is a standard of evidence. Need toize, but they do have a reasonable belief that what they are saying is either evidence of fraudbased of used or illegality fraudbased abuse or illegality within the agency. How often, generally speaking, do people come forward . Guest thats a great question. I would venture a guess to say it is different across the different agencies. The protections differ and it also depends on the culture within the agency. We saw in the last few years an uptick and whistleblowers coming forward from the v. A. Because they were getting a lot of press and the problems were compounded , you had these wait times, and people were dying. We saw an uptick from that agency, but it really depends on the agency and what is going on. Host are there certain agencies that are worse offenders than others . Because,s hard to say again, the numbers about who is a was a blower and isnt a whistleblower is hard to prove. Some agencies is hard to prove retaliation. I know with the department of defense the burden is on the whistleblower, whereas with others, the burden is on the agency to prove they havent retaliated against others. It makes it difficult to have one number and one definition of what is a whistleblower protection law. Host we have a call coming in. Heres jeffrey on the independent line from connecticut. Caller good morning. I was wanting to get into, im sorry if im not for nothing in name right. I hear everybody talking about constitution and different president s, this and that, and these people look back in ontory, corruption was going and greed and all that before the constitution was even made. Theres just thought more people in the world today. That is why it is so much more severe. Thats the way i look at it. Say you startple creating more branches than what you already have, you are just inviting more corruption, more greed. Getes got to be a way to back to some kind of reality. Thank you. Host all right. Heres the democratic line from missouri. Caller thank you. Have you read the book nobody would listen . Its on the Security Exchange commission. Wrote fiveeblower times that they were running a off, scheme with mr. Made with mr. Madoff, and nobody would pay attention. Are you still there . Guest yes. Anyway, the Security Exchange commission would listen. The person that was in charge of from congress was schumer. As soon as made off with to wentn as soon as madoff to prison, that stopped. We never found out how much payoff these people were getting. It must be interesting to go back and look at that situation instead of impeachment and stuff like that. Thank you very much, cspan. Host thanks for the call. James in mississippi on the independent line. Caller good morning. How are you doing . You, how do we get in touch with your office . Do you only assist list will blowers assist whistleblowers on certain levels . You see of his administration now, there are whistleblowers in previous administrations. They are taking over. Do those whistleblowers information, or do you assist them in these things . ,s you know, on a lower level theyd never reach to the top. Sometimes you get in serious trouble, even when you are a whistleblower. Im asking you, can you assist or give us information, or can we contact you or your office to speak to someone to assist us or give us information . Most of the time, most people in these situations have lawyers, have protection, but a lower level person speaking out, you have to basically do it on your own. So that isguest something, giving individual assistance to was a blowers, isnt something that is within our work. ,owever, we do have a tip line and you can report corruption at pogo. Org. You said you feel like whistleblowers arent protected or afforded those protections or not listen to. That is exactly what weve been working to combat. Have a whistleblower protections in the laws is really important, but it is also important that was feel that they are going to be heard when they go through the proper channels. It is also important that whistleblowers feel that they are going to be heard when they go through the proper channels. It is something that we are looking into. Dont have they resources to help every individual whistleblower who comes to us. We do have a resources page on our website, pogo. Org. We do have a resources page. We also have a list of attorneys who have experience with whistleblower cases and who often offer pro bono assistance. I encourage you to check that out. That is a problem we are aware of and are working to combat. To jennifer from oklahoma on the republican line. Good morning, jennifer. Ok, i think we lost jennifer. Alabama,o charlie from republican. The morning. Caller good morning. I think the young lady has the definition of a whistleblower and a leaker all mixed up. It was a blower a whistleblower reports violation of procedure, but a whistleblower is one that doesnt like the way things are being done. So they are going to go and leak stuff to the press. There is a definite difference between those two. Im going to get off the air. A whistleblower will tell on people that are in violation of procedure. Informto the press will the press of what they do not shame andof hope of changing stuff or destroying stuff. Thank you very much. Guest thank you. Nice to have somebody from mobile, alabama. I have family down there. Respectfully disagree. I think whistleblowers and leakers often have the same motivation. Was a blowersn agency feel that going through proper channels either is not going to be protected or their concerns arent going to be heard. I think thats when you absence of eyes when you incentivize people going to the press. There are also whistleblower protections for certain situations going to the press. You still may be considered a whistleblower and afforded protections. I think what we have been areing a lot about recently leaks of classified information to the press, which is a more complex subject. The nuances and the law there are a little harder to parse through in a quick way. But i think the motivations of whistleblowers and leakers are often the same. Pogo have been advocating for a talents test a balance test, which would mean that as a league went to the press instead of proper classified disclosed information, it would balance the impact of having that information out in the public exposingd what it was against the Public Benefit ofsus against the illegality releasing classified information in a nonclassified setting. Have james from tennessee on the democratic line. Good morning. Caller good morning. I think was a be granted protections simply because you have to be able to trust what our officials are doing i think was a blowers should be granted protections i think whistleblowers should be granted protections simply because you have to be able to trust what our officials are doing. Instead of giving us a lot of mumbojumbo or political response to things that we are involved in, things that we are paying for, i think the whistleblower gives the people hope that they are going to get a straightforward answer and the truth with that. Thanks. Host what do you think about what we have seen so far and the Trump Administration on what that might mean for whistleblowers . Guest i think its a little early. We are one month into the administration. There were some troubling developments right off the bat. There were those gag orders we saw issued to six agencies which ran a foul of the whistleblower by saying that people within the agency couldnt talk to members of Congress Without going through the pr office of the agency. When members of the house reformee of government stepped in, got involved, and sent the letter saying this is what the onclaimers that any memos communication have to have where you can make a whistleblower disclosure, i think they rescinded those gag orders. That was a good sign. This was a comment on leakers and cracking down hard on them without making the distinction between a whistleblower and a leaker, and without talking the Public Benefit of having the information out there. They are troubling, but it is a little too early in the to beation to say that concerned. It will be concerning if we dont see those kinds of orders beinggag and an affirmative statement from the ministration that they value whistleblower as the first line of defense for fraud, abuse, and illegality, and i think thats not a partisan issue. We all want our government to run better, and whistleblowers help that. We have james calling in from louisiana on the republican line. Caller good morning. Jeff, i think youre doing a great job. I want to ask, if i want to go to the pogo website and look for the whistleblowers for the phoenix v. A. That had their medical records released and retaliation, i dont know if you cover that, because the washington journal and have a but allegment on it, the sun youre doing a leakerwhistleblower segment. Did you do anything about the v. A. Whistleblowers . Guest we did. I do want to correct what they. Our website is pogo. Org. Pogo. Com is a game site. We actually did a ton of work on whistleblowers within the v. A. We opened up a specific channel for them to come to, and i think we had over 1000 responses. A lot of them came to us anonymously because they were concerned about the culture of retaliation against whistleblowers within the v. A. Patientsctors, nurses, veterans who were afraid to go to their Patient Advocates because they were afraid they were going to be cut off from their medication. We did a lot of work on that, and we have also been working with members of congress to not only reversed that culture, but also to strengthen the whistleblower protections for those within the v. A. Through legislation. Michiganhave dan from on the independent line. Good morning. Caller good morning. Helpyour organization ever Edward Snowden under the obama administration, other than labeling him as a traitor . Guest i dont think we ever labeled him a traitor. Our work around snowdens disclosure has really focused on increasing protections for Intelligence Community contractors. Edward snowden was pretty clear and has made many statements that he released information the way that he did as he was aware that he didnt have whistleblower protections. The Intelligence Community contractors have best practice protections for four years under the stimulus package, but those were removed from the National Defense authorization act in 2012, and right after that, snowden leaked information. Our work has focused on strengthening those protections and putting protections in place for employees like Edward Snowden so Intelligence Community contractors can go through proper channels and not again, protected, but one of the most important parts of whistleblower protections, to have a proper channel where they feel their concerns are going to be heard and addressed. That is what our work has focused around in terms of those disclosures. Montreal. Ard from good morning. Caller good morning. How are you . Theve a comet to make about dhs agent testified in the senate in june when senator cruz called a hearing on radical islam. I know a lot of americans, when he heard the testimony, were outraged, and thats what they voted for truck. I just want and thats why they voted for trump. I does want to know why the media is covering up his testimony. Guest im actually not aware of that testimony. Sorry. Host john from new york on the democratic line. Caller good morning, elizabeth. About, when you are talking about your topic, several years ago my wife and i were invited to come to d. C. By an annual to attend meeting. Was down by the capital, and repercussionsh they suffered from. That intot to bring your discussion. You for yournk effort with this. Guest thank you. I agree. I think one of the reasons we work so hard to increase whistleblower protection is because of our work with individual whistleblowers. We see it takes years of costly litigation. Sometimes they lose their jobs or keep their jobs and demoted and put in an office in a basement where they cant interact with anybody. The different ways that agencies can retaliate against whistleblowers is something we are very concerned about, and why we have been working on this issue since we started 35 years ago. Host what happens is a was a whistleblowers allegations go unfounded . If the allegations that there is wrongdoing are unfounded, as long as they had a reasonable belief, they are still protected under the whistleblower protection. Reprised against by their supervisors or managers for raising a concern if it wasnt legitimate, as long as they had a reasonable belief that it was. Complaints reprisals if the reprisal complaints go unfounded, they are out of luck. Depending on what the reprisal was, if they lost their job or were demoted or were suspended without pay, i think that just stands. Host our last call from the segment is sharon from california. Caller hi. I just wanted to ask you about Edward Snowden. But you already answered that. I appreciate your answer. I wanted to congratulate the host. Hes very nice and i like him. Host well thank you for that. And thank you liz for being here. We are still waiting for President Trump to appear at a rally in florida, the event in melbourne should begin shortly. While we wait, we are going to show you more of todays washington journal