host: our first guest of the morning as a musician, activist and author of the book " clandestine relationships." daryl davis, welcome to washington journal. what do you do for your main job? guest: i am a professional musician, touring around the world. host: what kind of music do you do? guest: whatever they pay me to play. [laughter] my degree is in jazz, but i play a lot of rock 'n' roll, country. host: you take this path of being a musician, and somehow you end up meeting with members of the ku klux klan. guest: as a bandleader, my job on stage is to foster harmony between all the voices on my stage. anytime you hear dissidents, unless it is -- dissonance unless it is intentionally injected, it is noise. i try to have harmony. when i step off the stage, i want to have harmony around me in society. host: when did you realize this was something you needed to do? guest: i spent a lot of time as a child, growing up overseas. i traveled a lot. i was always in multicultural schools. in the 1960's as a kid in grade school, i had classmates from nigeria, japan, russia. all of their children went to the same school. when you came back home, i would be either in all-black schools or black-and-white schools, meaning they were still segregated or nearly integrated.we did not have that multicultural classroom that i had overseas. something was wrong. i could not put my finger on it until i was participating in a parade in which i was the only black cub scout in the parade. everything was going fine until at one point i was having bottles and rocks thrown at me. this was 1968. my parents explained racism to me, and at the age of 10 when this happened, i had never heard the word " racism." why would i? it was not in my sphere. overseas i was living 10 years ahead of my time because that multicultural environment had not yet come to our classrooms in this country. when it finally did, i was already there. host: tell us about your first meeting with the kkk. how did that happen? guest: i was playing at a bar in a town called frederick, maryland. the bar was known as an all-white bar, not that there were any signs, but black people knew they were not welcome there. when you go somewhere where you all are not -- where you are not welcome and alcohol is being sold, bad things can happen. i was the only black guy in the band. a guy put his arm around my shoulder and told me it was the first time he heard a black man play the piano like jerry lewis. i told him that jerry lee lewis learned from black piano players. he wanted to buy me a drink. i don't drink alcohol. he bought me a cranberry juice. he clinked his glass -- my glass and said " this is the first time i have sat down and had a drink with a black man." i was truly baffled. i asked him why. at first he didn't answer me. his buddy elbowed him and said " tell him!" he said " i am a member of the ku klux klan." i burst out laughing at him! i know a lot about the klan. it doesn't work that way. i thought this guy was pulling a joke on me. he took out his wallet and handed me his klan membership card. i stopped laughing, but the guy was generally friendly, generally interested in me. we talked about the kln and soman -- klan other things, but he gave me his card and told me to call him when i would be playing at this bar again so he could call his friends. i call him. when i called, he brought klansmen to see me play. they would get ther -- out there and dance. a couple of them would it up and move across the room. " we do not want to touch you, we just want to look at you." that is how that started. later, i decided to write a book on the klan. i wanted to interview these people, go down south, midwest, interview different klan members, and find out " how can you hate me when you don't even know me?' that was the basis for clandestine relationships. that became the first book written by a black author on the ku klux klan. host: table there -- daryl davis is our guest. if you want to ask him questions, it is (202) 748-8000 four the eastern -- for the eastern and central time zones and (202) 748-8001 for the pacific and mountain time zones. what have you discovered in talking with these people? guest: they have their own perceptions until they meet somebody in person. then that perception can be shaped. what you want to be careful of is you find someone who says "daryl is ok for a black guy." when i make -- get into relationship, then i introduce them to other friends of mine,, black people, jewish people, white people who looked just like them who may not agree with their views. they see other people and think " maybe daryl isn'th exception." a clansmen is is t amped out of a cookie-cutter. they may be monolithic in their ideological views. i have found, traveling around the world between my childhood and my adulthood as a musician, when you combine those 2 sets of travels, i have been to 61 countries, i have played in all 50 states, and no matter how far i go from our country, no matter how different people may be who i encounter, they do not look like me, they do not worship as i do, i always conclude that we are all human beings, and as such, we all want these basic 5 core values. everyone wants to be loved, we all want to be respected, we went to be heard, we want to be treated truthfully, we want the same for our families as anyone else wants for their families. if we can learn to apply those five values, when we find ourselves in an adversarial situation, i guaranteed the navigation will be much more smooth. let's take abortion, nuclear weapons, the war between -- in ukraine, or the last presidential election, these are all hot topics. you are on one side, someone is on the others. apply those values, and you can never get the conversation. host: how many klan members have you spoken to, do you think? guest: several hundred. over 200 have left. i have the robes and flags to prove it. host: there are pictures on your website. they give you these things. why is that? guest: it is a piece of american history. it is a shameful piece of american history. everybody has history, good, bad, ugly, and shameful, and we need to learn from it, for the same reason we do not destroy the things in the holocaust museum. host: do you hold them at your home? guest: i keep most of them locked up off-site. i have a few in my home that i travel with when i go and give lectures. host: you can read his book " clandestine relationships." are first call is from jonathan. jonathan is in california for our guest daryl davis. caller: i have muted my television. i am looking at these amazing photographs daryl has taken. i admire you so much, daryl. you are an amazing human being. you said early on you had traveled all over the world, so you have been exposed to a lot of different cultures, languages, and that is why your brain is wide open to receive new information. guest: i will give you and the audience at home my favorite quote of all time. it is by mark twain. mark twain said, " travel is fatal to prejudice,, bigotry and, narrowmindedness, and our people need accounts of -- host: cornelius is next. cornelius in louisiana for our guest. caller: good morning, pedro, and happy columbus day. pedro, i was just telling the call screener that daryl davis is a davis. i wonder how you survived all that stuff. in louisiana, you know who louis armstrong is right? guest: i'm a musician! caller: louis armstrong came here to alexandria, louisiana, and he said this was the most racist city he had ever been to and he would never perform here again. i just want to know, how have you survived all this stuff? i faced racism myself. i am 61 years old, and the fbi essentially set me up in something. how do you go up against these klans and live? caller: thank you, cornelius. i am 64 years old, and i have had my share of racism. i continue to face it, but i believe the greatest weapon and most effective weapon to combat racism is the least expensive and the most underused. it is called conversation. i believe a missed opportunity for dialogue is a missed opportunity for conflict resoti. that is how i deal with it by applying those values. is everybody going to change? absolutely not, but if someone is willing to take the opportunity to sit down and have a conversation with you, even though you both are on opposite ends of the ideological spectrum, there is an opportunity to plant a seed. it might not happen overnight. you have to come back and nurture that seed, and water it. host: how difficult is it to keep those conversations civil? guest: it is fine for me. a lot of people try to take it personally. i don't take it personally. how can someone walk into a room and call me names and tell me what i am? why should i believe it? it is a lie. i know who i am. you do not know who im the minute i walked into the room. why should i take that personally? if my mother or father were to tell me " you are inferior," maybe i would believe them. they brought me into this world. they raised me. rather than attack that person, let them get it all out. people want to be heard. if you allow them to be heard without attacking them, chances are they will reciprocate and allow you to be heard. they are so used to pushing buttons and having that conflict, " how come this side isn't reacting? what does he have to say?" host: have you ever felt in danger while having these conversations? guest: i have had some violent situations where i have had to put someone in prison -- in the hospital and in jail. those have been few and far between. it can happen. host: did it ever stop you? guest: absolutely not. i looks -- absolutely not. i look for the greater good. this is our country. it can only become one of two things. host: michael is next for our guest. he is in boston. good morning. caller: thank you, c-span. as a black american, black dissent american, 58, so not much younger than your guest, i am definitely taken aback because i feel this conversation adds legitimacy to a hate organization. i was taken back because he brought in all this other stuff -- ukraine, russia, the jews -- i wonder if this person even knows the founder of the kkk was judah benjamin. their target was black people. here he brings up jews as if they were out here lynching jews, when they were lynching black people. i don't agree with this. i don't agree with this idea that " as long as they talk to me ok -- that doesn't matter!@ as if having a conversation with them is going to change reality. it is not really different, if you look at quality-of-life stats. i just don't like this idea. i feel this gentleman is adding legitimacy to diligent -- something that is illegitimate. host: stay on the line. guest: thank you for your comments. i have been doing this work for 40 years. i am very much aware of when the claim was formed,, why it was formed -- the klan was formed, why it was formed, and what it is doing today. it is shameful. i will never support it, but it is not an illegitimate organization. perhaps it should be, but it is not. we have the right to hate. we do not have the right to hurt. rather than battle people in the street over racism, why not bring them to the table and have a conversation? allow them to learn about you, learn about them, dispel their fears about you because of the color of our skin. that is what i do. when you have been mistreated as i have -- i am a descendant of slaves. when you have been mistreated for 400 years and you are still being mistreated 400 years later, it is time to change the approach. i am not condoning it. i am trying a different approach. host: do you have a response? guest: my only response is first of all, i hear what you are saying, but what i said was ilegit, the organization. the war was illegit. he did not handle the fact that the head of the kkk was named judah p. benjamin. host: the first leader of the -- guest: the first leader of the clan was nathan bedford forrest. they have gone from dropouts to presidents of the united states. president harry truman had joined the klan for a short time before he became president. supreme court justice hugo black was in the klan when he got the appointment to sit on the supreme court. he had to leave the klan in order to do that. senator robert byrd who was the last living senator from west virginia was estate recruiter for the ku klux klan. he later gave it up and did a lot of good things for civil rights. people can change.if you do not believe people can change, there is not hope. why are you still here? do you want to complain the rest of your life, or do you want to do something about it? host: the southern poverty law center said that the number has drastically dropped. guest: there are probably a few more groups than 18, but the number. of but the number of groups has dropped -- 18, but the number of groups has dropped. the proud boys, the alt-right, vanguard, national alliance, they go on and on. the klan was the first and the largest at one time. host: let's hear from foster in texas. you are on with daryl davis. caller: hello, mr. davis. yes, i appreciate what you are doing. your situation reminded me of a schoolmate friend that i had. i was in eighth grade. he was from alabama. i was here in san antonio. we became friends to a point where we were sharing tents when i was in boy scouts. we ate at each other's homes and everything, but what happened to break our friendship up was the fact that he started hanging around these other white kids and all of a sudden he changed. he once said the n-word to me while he was at my home. he was just kidding around, and he pretended like he did not know what it meant and it was no big deal. when we had this confrontation when he was around his friends, he showed me that he did know what it meant. this continues because of people who push people who do not really want to be racist, i believe. it is just like a child who comes up and learns racism because of the people who are guiding them. host: thank you. guest: absolutely. you made a good point. racism is a learned behavior and what can be learned can be unlearned. you saw the true colors of your friend before all this happened, and then he changed. that exposure is what changed him. he needs more exposure to what it was before he hung out with those other white supremacist type friends that he embodied, their belief system, and their ideology. this is why it is so important to have conversation, provide that exposure. host: what have you learned from your conversations about what keeps people in the kkk? guest: a klansman is not stamped out of a cookie-cutter. it depends upon -- what keeps them in their depends upon why they joined in the first place. somebody joined because my grandfather was in the client. my daddy was in the clan -- in the klan. my daddy was in the klan. my kids are going to be in the klan. or you move into a town that is a strong klanhold. if you want to do business in that town, you join. it might be a situation where you are in a coal mining town, and you have been mining coal your whole life, right out of high school you mind coal, your whole family has him -- mined coal, your whole family has mined coal. your company has laid you off and all of a sudden new migrants to this country are being paid a fraction of what you are being paid and taking your jobs. the l;a c -- klan sees that and will say " the blacks have the naacp, the jews have the adl, come join us, we will get your jobs back!" these were people who were never racist in their lives. now they are out of work, they are not qualified to do anything else, and the bank is knocking on the door, so the klan tells them " you cannot even feed your family. join us." they figure" what do i have to lose? host: you are associated with the foundation against intolerance and racism. guest: it was started by bargaining, and at -- bartney, an excellent guy whose son was going to school in new york and was treated terribly because of the color of his skin. it addresses all topics of discrimination, not just skin color,, but sexism fairness in medicine, fairness in education in the arts. i get lots of invitations to join organizations that want to combat discrimination. i have to be careful about which ones i associate with. fair is one of the very few i associate with. they are having an event tonight in d.c. that i will be attending. host: daryl davis, our guest for this conversation. let's hear from rose in oregon. caller: i am so grateful to you for talking about your experience at the international schools. it reassured me about what it is all about. it had such a great influence. your association in that environment had such a great, formative influence on your life and what you are doing now, and i appreciate very much what your perspective is and how you are going about it, and how you are living. i think it is wonderful that you are able to associate with the klansmen and explain their perspective. i really believe in this. i am so grateful to hear somebody who is beyond identity politics. guest: hannah: thank you -- guest: thank you, rose for, educating our public. host: to tony in washington dc. caller: thank you for allowing us to talk to you on this forum. i am a black man who lives in washington dc. quite often i am mistaken for a white person, but i remember, this was may be a few years ago, when you were on tv and you are talking about how to of the white guys that entered your home. one of them was a bodyguard. you were quite worried about this. you were kind of scared for your safety. guest: i don't remember being afraid. i invented them to my home. the bodyguard set on the couch with the leader of the ku klux klan. he pulled out his gun. i was not scared of them. i did not want the gun to go off accidentally. today, i own their robes and hoods! guest: i remember -- caller: i remember that part. you were somewhat taken aback by the production of the gun and everything. i remember that the -- at the end the klansmen gave yohis cape and whole thing. i admire you very mh because you are a great person. i would love to join your band. i know how to play three chords! guest: my man! come to my website dary ldavis.com. host: dylan is in south dakota. your next. caller: i am a disabled veteran. when i first got to vietnam, the brothers were all draftees. they had attitudes. by the time i left i was a blue-eyed brother. i haven't had any problems at all with brothers, and i admire what you do. guest: thank you very much. thank you for your service to our country. when your life is put on the line, and you are defending our country, there is no color. it is a shame though sometimes when you come back from being equal overseas to come back and you are treated like a second-class citizen. that has to stop. not only do we have to do more for our people as human beings, but we also need to do a lot more for our veterans. host: when it comes to the kkk, how has social media change things in your mind? guest: social media is like fire. it can be good, it can be bad. if you are cold, i can bring fire to your house and warm you up, or if i am mad at you, i can bring fire to your house to bring it down. a group can claim to have 500 people, but it is only one guyana basement. it has enabled people -- one guy in a basement. it has enabled people. we look at the capital and suresh and. a lot of -- capitol insurrection. a lot of that was on facebook. host: when you see those events, are you ever discouraged? guest: no. i have to do more. i need more people to help do more. not everyone needs to be on the frontline. you can be on the sideline, you could be on the back line, you can be online. we are all equal partners. you might remember your favorite movie. you could probably tell me who starred in it, but can you tell me who the director is? maybe. can you tell me who the cameramen were? probably not. or the name of the best boy or the lighting guy? probably not. but each of those people played a role in that movie getting that oscar. on the back line, the sideline, the people promoting it like you are right now, you are online. we all have to work together and get that solution. host: this next caller is in california. caller: hello. good morning, daryl. guest: how are you? caller: i'm well. how about yourself? guest: i'm very well. caller: can ask you a question? guest: absolutely. caller: one or two of the previous colors brought up how do you -- callers brought up how do you protect yourself? guest: i learn as much as i can in advance about the other side. until i have a certain degree of knowledge, i go and meet these people. sometimes i meet them cold and i do not know anything about them, but i have been doing this for 40 years so my instincts are pretty good. every now and again someone may go off handle. there is a history of violence. there are people who do not like to see you. you are black, jewish, gay, islamic, they want to stamp you out. i have had to deal with some of those people. sometimes you have to fight your way out of it unfortunately. host: how many referrals do you get from klan bringing you other people? guest: absolutely! i have had neo-nazis and kkk people and all the right people who come out and tour with me on my lecture circuit and speak out against their former organizations. they tried tode-radicalize -- to de-radicalize people from these organizations. one guy was murdered out in california. host: how does your family feel about what you do? guest: my family, my mother, and father are gone now. my mom passed shortly before i started this. my dad passed a few years ago. my family raised me. they treated everyone as a human being. treat people as i wanted to be treated. my father was concerned for my safety of course, but he understood where i was coming from. his job was to foster diplomatic relations between foreign countries and the u.s. he was a public affairs officer for the state department. we served overseas. i am fostering better relations within my own country. we did it around the world. host: let's hear from lupe in california. caller: hello, you caught me in the kitchen. guest: you didn't invite me over? caller: you know what, if i was making a lot of it, you would be here! we are talking. you're here in spirit! what i called about is i am enjoying this conversation because when i was seven years old i was at my girlfriend's house and we went to play. her brother came in through the living room, took her into the kitchen and said " you know what mom said about bringing those kind of people over," and i didn't understand! new big deal. later on -- no big deal. later on i run into him in. -- later on i run into him in high school. i say " why did you say that?" that was the first time i heard about racism. they were japanese! when i got out of that was we were in the middle being mexicans in north hollywood. to my right were the jews. to my -- across the other end where the italians. to my left, i had the japanese a nd where we lived i got to share my burritos, whatever we had, and i became a good cook from the beginning when i was young. host: very much. guest: lupe reminds me of a story, true story. this klansman was sitting in my car in the passenger seat. i'm driving. we got on the topic of black crime and he made the statement that i have heard many times. he said, " all black people have a gene within then that makes them violent." i am driving. i say " what are you talking about?" he says " who is doing all the drive-bys and carjackings in southeast?" i say, " it is black people, but that is who predominantly lives in southeast d.c.. who is doing all of the crime in bangor, maine? white people! you are ignoring the demographics." i am as black as anyone you have ever seen. i have never done a drive-by. he said, "your gene is latent. it hasn't come out yet." i m sitting there dumbfounded, speechless. he is smug. i had to think about it. i had to go to where he was in order to connect. i thought about it. i said, " we all know that every white person in them has a gene that makes them a serial killer." he says, " what you talking about?" i said " name me 3 black serial killer's." he could not even name one. i said, " charles manson, ted bundy, albert desalvo -- they are all white. son, you are a serial killer." he said, "daryl, i haven't killed anybody." i said, "your gene is latent." he said that stupid. i said that is no more stupid than what you said to me. he quit though the ku klux klan based on that conversation. host: let's hear from clarence in south carolina. caller: how are you doing? i am enjoying this conversation. i am reading about what you have to say. i am involved in a discrimination case in the state of south carolina. i will be looking for assistance . i have been posting videos of evidence, showing how corrupt the system is against people of color, and so if you have an opportunity, i would invite you to go to youtube and look at those videos. my name is clarence jenkins. we can change the culture by having conversation, real conversation. we deal with these issues of racism and identity. we put it under the rug and do not deal with the real conversation. also -- host: i will leave it there for our best. guest: thank you, clarence. i wish you very much luck in your dealing with the discrimination you are facing. get your allies around, speak out about it, do not attack anybody. listen to them and they will listen back to you. when two enemies are talking, they are not fighting. they may be disagreeing, but they are talking. spend five minutes with your worst adversary, and you will find something in common and that gap will narrow. when you get here you are having a relationship with your adversary. you keep on talking,, you find more in common and now you are here and you are in some kind of friendship. you may not agree on everything. you are in a friendship. by the time you get here that you have -- here, you have so much in common that the differences are trivial. good luck. host: what practical tips to start these conversations whether it be someone you disagree with on race, religion, whatever? guest: walk across the cafeteria. you can do it physically or virtually over the internet. find these metropolitan places that have diverse communities. college, high school, or in the workplace, you work with people who do not look like you. you get along at work, you work on the same projects. but at 12 noon everyone goes to the cafeteria, blocks go with blacks, hispanics go with hispanics. we tend to self segregate. does that mean they are racist? not necessarily. if you try and sit at their table, then you have a problem. you have to address that problem. once or twice a week,. leave your -- once or twice a week, walk across the cafeteria. leave your comfort group. you will likely make a new friend. i have been across the atlantic ocean and pacific ocean more times than i can count, but you do not have to do that. you can hop on the internet and talk to someone in a foreign country. get to know people. this is our planet. get to know it. host: from washington dc, this is let me -- wendy. hi. caller: i'm here. host: you will have to turn down your tv. caller: it is turned off. host: go ahead. caller: oh, hi i just wanted to thank you, daryl for all you do for the universe. guest: i appreciate that. host: john in neptune beach, florida. caller: hey, daryl. let me first say, i think you have a wonderful voice. , james earl jones, if he ever retires -- guest: [laughter] caller:, i am a white conservative, trump supporter, love what you have to say. i think you are great. i liked a lot of the lack conservative -- black conservative leaders, but i think your message is wonderful and i agree with you 100%. guest: really appreciate that very much. that is what it is all about. host: is it harder to change someone's mind on race or politics over the years? guest: either or. one's perception is one's reality, even if it is not real, it is their reality. you cannot change someone's reality. if you try to change their reality, they will push back. what you do is this -- never attack someone's reality. offer them better perceptions, and if they resonate with one of your perceptions, they will change their own reality because their perception becomes their reality. people say, you google my name, it says " black man converts x number of white supremacists." i did not convert anybody. i have been the impetus for 200 people to convert themselves. host: more calls for you? guest: sure. host: gina is up next in mississippi. caller: mr. davis, it sounds like you are a very intelligent man. i agree with the last caller. i live in the deep south. i have never even seen or heard of the ku klux klan anywhere down here. i have a question for you. you keep mentioning white supremacists. do you believe that white people are the only people who are racist or do you believe there is racism in every race? guest: gina, there is racism in every race. let me ask you a question -- do you consider racism to be people? -- to be evil? caller: i don't know. i think racism is mistaken for a lot of other feelings like fear and ignorance, but i try to judge everybody by their integrity. i believe there is a lot of thugs in every race. guest: if you consider racism to be out of fear, out of ignorance, and things like that, doesn't fear and ignorance pervade other skin colors as well, every religions as well -- other religions as well? caller: i'm talking about every race! i think there are good people and bad people in every race. another question i would like to ask you though, do you think the media is being racist and now against white people because that is all we ever hear is that white people are white supremacist. i think it is a load of crap and the media is responsible for most of our problems in the united states. guest: did you tell me that you live in the deep south and you have never heard of the ku klux klan? host: she hung up. guest: there is racism amongst all people. you kept saying different races. i know for a fact that there are not different races. race is a man-made construct. there is only one race, and that is the human race. in the human race you have different colors and different cultures, but there is only one race. there are white and black colors, this that and the other. it can pervade all cultures and all people. host: daryl davis is the author of " clandestine relationships