Transcripts For CSPAN Washington Journal 20140613

Journal cspan. Org. Front page of the Los Angeles Times this morning, obama weighs direct action on iraq militants is the headline. Heres the president from yesterday. But what weve seen over the last couple of days indicates the degree to which iraq is going to need more help is going to need more help from us and going to need more help from the international community. My team is working around the clock to identify how we can provide the most effective assistance to them. I dont rule out anything because we do have a stake in making sure that these jihadists are not getting a permanent foothold in either iraq or syria for that matter. Host and the New York Times says u. S. Scramble to help iraq fight off militants. You can see this picture on the front page here, some shiite muslim iraqis volunteering for military service. , obama weighs air strikes. The white house confronted by an unexpected crisis on a battlefield it thought it had left behind, scrambled thursday to reassure iraq that it would help its beleaguered army fend off militants who have overrun much of the country and now threaten baghdad host after that briefing on capitol hill, some senators took to the floor to talk about the situation. Heres john mccain. The president needs to replace his entire National Security team which have been a total failure. Theyre the ones that described our departure from iraq as a great success. It can have many quotes that would attest to that. The president has got to learn that just because he dechairs a conflict over is not because its over, and the president needs to get a Reliable Team around him to provide him with the options that are available and the course of actions that ould be able to reverse this disaster thats unfolding before our eyes. You said air strikes arent enough no, i am not saying its not enough. I am saying that we need to get the smartest guys. Thats general petraeus, the people that won the war with the surge and get their advice and counsel. Air strikes may be part of it. Air strikes may not be part of it. I would rely on their judgment. I am not calling for air strikes. I am calling for the advice and counsel are the smartest people who won the war in iraq before the president of the United States lost it. Host a little bit more from the New York Times on iraq, u. S. Scramble to help iraq fight off militants as baghdad is threatened is the headline ost 202 is the area code. 5853881 for republicans. Iraq veterans, 2025853883. Should the u. S. Intervene in iraq is our question. Were going to begin with a call from jessica in l. A. On our independent line. Jessica, youre on the air. Caller hi, good morning. I just to want say, i have more of a statement. I am just disgusted by this. I am so tired of being in all of these wars. We were over there, were spending billions of dollars over in iraq and afghanistan. We have a crisis at our borders right now. We have all these children coming in. Nothing is being done about that. The taxpayers are going to be stuck with that. I think America Needs to wake up. We need to start hitting the streets. We need to start protesting. This needs to stop. Im just totally disgusted. When is it going to end . All of our money is going over there. People cant even get unemployment. This has to stop. Im totally disgusted. Host the state department sent out a tweet yesterday saying that they can confirm that u. S. Citizens under contract to iraq government are being temporarily relocated due to security concerns in the area. Tyrone in North Carolina, democrats line. Tyrone, what do you think, u. S. Intervene in iraq at this point . Caller no, sir. Good morning. She shouldnt go over there, and john mccain shouldnt have said what he said, because hes the reason so many people are dead by sending them into iraq under false promising there was weapons of mass destruction, and there was none. We cant police the whole world. If they want to send somebody, let them send their sons and grandsons and daughters. This stuff need to stop. Host is there a solution to whats going on in iraq right now . Yeah, prayer. Put god first instead of man. Thats the solution to all the problems in this world, pray. Pray to god first and not man, and youll see things change. Host thank you, sir. Diane f. B. I. Stine is the chair of the Intel Committee in the senate, and she also spoke yesterday about this issue. Im very concerned. I think it clearly shows that maliki was unable to make any accommodations with sunnis, and now the most violent of sunni extremist groups have grabbed hold of the situation and are on a march to baghdad. And this could be devastating. You know, id like an opportunity, assuming im asked, to give my views personally, but this is a very dangerous situation. Host and katherine is calling from north conway, new hampshire. Hi, katherine. Caller hi, good morning. There is an adage, the pen is mightier than the sword. Therefore, in like iraq and all arab countries, syria and afghanistan, so forth, perhaps the solution to the terrorist threat and to reach the hearts and minds of the people would be to drop millions and millions of leaf lets, twitter, ut on computer, tv, radio, the following very brief and strong message. If mom mad was living today if mohammed was living today, would he condone terrorist violence . Would he condone jihad . Would he consider anonymous limbs infidels . I think not. Being a spiritual prophet to many people, he would have grown and had new spiritual processes, just like other religions have. Theyve changed over women and gay rights in religion. Theyve changed about polygmy. Theyve changed about who can go to heaven. And people can follow and have faith in a religion, all the while the religion is changing for the better. Host all right, katherine, going to show you the front page of the wall street journal, iraq scramble to defend baghdad is the header. The story right below that, militants aim to redraw mideast map. At an annual security conference in israel this week, the head of the military showed pictures of two longdead diplomats, an englishman and a frenchman, secured their place in history by cutting a deal that drew the borders of the modern middle east host tone any fort worth on our democrats line. What do you think . Should the u. S. Do something . Caller well, i think we should go in in a very limited capacity, you know, because we done so much already. People saying we lost 4,400 soldiers or whatever the case may be, that were one of those 4,400 more by going in again. Theyve been fighting since the beginning of time, you know . Iran stopped fighting iraq so iraq could fight us when we first went over there. Theres always been wars in that region. We cant get involved in everything in that region. You know, if we go to war, hes wrong f. We dont go to wrong, hes wrong. If he gets on bergdahl in exchange for prisoners, hes wrong, and if he doesnt hes wrong. The president is in a nowayne situation in this case. For john mccain to come on and make those statements hes made about the president losing the war, we never should have been in the war in the first place. I dont know what happened to john mccain. I think losing the presidency to president obama really changed his whole outlook on life or something. But i think we should go in, but where is nato . I think nato forces would be berti quipped for this instead of the United States going in. They talking about the budget, we wont spend another trillion dollars on another war. I really dont know what the republicans want from the president. Host thank you, sir. The Army Statement on Sergeant Bergdahl, Sergeant Bergdahl was returned to the u. S. On june 13. He arrived at the san antonio military medical facility on Fort Sam Houston early this morning, where he will undergo phase three reintegration. Thats the Army Statement this orning on Sergeant Bergdahl, and shawna is calling from california on our republican line. Shawna, what do you think . Shawna, you with us . Caller korean war veteran, and we dont need to put any more money into any country that hates us. My husband is one of those veterans thats now sitting in a nursing home dying in a wheelchair permanently in diapers because the v. A. Broke their own policy in San Francisco and sat host do you know what . Thats not quite what were talking about this morning, but we got your point. I think we got your point on iraq. Usa today, lead story as well, islamist fighters set their sights on baghdad is their headline. And politte cohas this article politico has this article, g. O. P. On iraq, we told you so. And from the wall street journal, u. S. Secretly flying drones over iraq. The u. S. Since last year has been secretly flying unmanned Surveillance Aircraft in small numbers over iraq to collect intelligence on insurgents, according to u. S. Officials. The program was limited in size and proved little use to u. S. And iraqi officials when islamist fighters moved swiftly this week to seize two major iraqi cities. Before the islamist offensive, the program was expanded based on growing u. S. And iraqi concerns about the expanded military activities of Al Qaeda Linked fighters. Anna, texas, democrat. Good morning. Caller yes, good morning. May 19, 2005, my nephew was one of those 4,400 soldiers who lost his life in iraq. For all those people who want to spend our money and our young mens lives, young men and young womens lives, you take your children or your grandchildren down to the army, navy, marine base, and you let them fight the wars. We have lost so much of our young peoples lives. General president eisenhower always spoke, and nobody speaks about president eisenhower, because he said old men will start wars, and young men will have to give their lives for those wars. So for everybody out there, its been devastating for our 25yearold nephew to have he was the oldest person in the tank who was trying to save one of his soldiers lives and several other people. He was a gold star resilient. He has every medal, but that doesnt do anything for his child now. So if you think that fighting wars all the time will save anyone, those people are going to fight forever, and maliki should never have been put in place. This is not president obamas war. He inherited the war. We shouldnt inherit all of this mess. We should clean up our own country. And make sure that our young people are educated. The shiites, they dont include anybody. Saddam hussein kept all of those people out of iraq, but we went in and killed him because he knew so much on us. So for all those people out there who want it, you go down, and you sign up at the recruiting office, and also, on that young man who just came back, we should no, we dont leave him, and all of us who are piling on him, we should be ashamed. This is america. Host that was texas. National journal this morning, Congress Iraq vets helplessly watch their gains lost. This article says that there are 17 members of congress who served in iraq, and our next call comes from an iraq vet. Lee in sterling, virginia, here in the suburbs. Hi, lee. Caller hi. Good morning. Thanks, sir, for taking my call. You know, its with a heavy heart to see all this going on. I was there five times. I was a Navy Corpsman with the marines, and i did search and rescues. I did a lot of pain and suffering. I lost a lot of my brothers and sisters, and i hope today i still have that guilt that why am i alive and theyre not . But i got to say, i agree with the previous callers, one of the callers mentioned about her husband, about korean, vietnam veteran, suffering now, dealing with the v. A. I think that, first off, we do not have an obligation to go back. Thats number one. Weve been there. Weve sacrificed so much, and to our own demise. So an obligation, we do not. I think it was extended up to 2011 so we had to get all our troops out. The iraqis, they are the ones that didnt want us there. Theyre the ones that obama tried to keep troops there, but that agreement wasnt signed. For us to keep troops there without that agreement signed is essentially, you know, its like were committing suicide for our soldiers out there, and marines, sailors, etc. We just could not stay there. To me, iraq, they chose their own destiny. We do not have an obligation to go back. Im very disturbed that senator mccain made those statements, made those comments, because thats shaping the public perception, but we do not have an obligation. I got to say, what we need to do is have an intelligent footprint because we still have to we have to protect our borders, and we know that our borders have definitely widened, and we know we have assets all over the world, and we have to take care of them. I think we do need to have the intelligence. And thats all. Thats the type of footprint we need to have. Host what about drones . What about the use of drones . Caller i think it has to be done very strategically. It nk, again, you know, has bob ton very strategically, like if we have to target the leaders, im ok with that. But i think it will have to be based on very hard intelligence, and i think that should be the focus. Host lee, what happens if maliki falls if iraq is overrun by the isis . Caller well, i think thats where intelligence has to come in, and we have to try to contain, but i think the reality is theres going to be a civil war there. Just from being there, its destiny. Its destiny. I know theres a lot of people with faith in the scriptures, but just seeing how they interact with each other, you know, this goes back, you know, hundreds of thousands of years. And i think we have to respect that. I think we have to allow them to deal with it. I think the very fact to go back to the fact, the fact the agreement wasnt signed is a testament to that. We have to allow them to deal with it. I think for to us shed any more to provide any more resources, you know, our most valuable resources, i think we cant. We have so much look at this. The v. A. Was on the front page, and we were still focused on fixing the v. A. , and now we dont see it on the front page. Thats the focus right now. We have an obligation to take care of those who have given it all. Host all right, thats lee in sterling, virginia. This tweet from jack said the u. S. Should go in, train the army for two more years, and then watch the same thing happen again . Senator Lindsey Graham also spoke about this issue yesterday. To the American People, i know youre worldweary and tired of dealing with the mideast, but the people that are moving into iraq and holetting ground in syria have as part of their agenda not only to drive us out of the mideast, but hit our homeland. The head of the f. B. I. Said that the pipeline for the next 9 11 attack is likely to come rom syria. There are numerous american citizens who have gone to the jihad in syria. European jihadists are now in syria. Theyre coordinating in syria and iraq. They hold terrain. It is my worst fear come true. Host editorial, usa today, u. S. Policy failures leave few good options in iraq. That newspaper writes that. The most telling aspect of the isis success was what it said about president almaliki, who has stubbornly resist the u. S. Pressure to brings sunni minority into his government host next call is terry, dayton, ohio, democrat. Youre on the washington journal. Should the u. S. Get involved in iraq . Terry . Caller yes, im here. Thank you for taking my call. No, we shouldnt get involved, and im actually offended that the newspapers, the media is trying to push us back into another war. We cant even take care of our own people here. Weve been fighting this war for years for no reason, and now you got people like john mccain, Lindsey Graham talking nonsense, and its just so disrespectful. Its disheartening that we are being tried and being pushed back into another war over there. Wary done. Were out. Take care of our veterans. Take care of our Homeless People here. Feed our children. Educate our children here. Thats what we need to be thinking about. Thank you for taking my call. Host here very quickly, iraq by the numbers. When the u. S. Invaded iraq, that was march 19, 2003, eight years, nine months, and 12 days. 1. 5 million americans served in that war. U. S. Military deaths, about 4,500. U. S. Troops injured, about 32,000. Weve set aside our fourth line this morning for iraq vets, 2025853883 if you want to share your experience in iraq and tell us what you think about whether the u. S. Should intervene in iraq at this point, given whats happening. Heres a headline, iraq disintegrating as insurgents advance toward the capital. Kurds are now seizing kirkuk. We will be talking with Michael Gordon of the New York Times about that a little bit later when he comes out here. Wall street journal, lead editorial this morning, the iraq debacle is the headline. Heres the conclusion mr. Obama now faces the choice of intervening anew with u. S. Military force or doing nothing. The second option means risking the fall of baghdad or a fullscale iranian intervention to save mr. Malikis government, either of which would be a terrible strategic defeat host james, arlington, texas, independent line. Whats your view . Caller yeah, i cant believe people want to intervene in that, because the sunnis and the shiites, theyre headed for civil war. I mean, the sunnis regard the shiites as infidels basically. And basically, as long as youre right there battling each other, they dont have any time to concentrate on us. I mean, we should be more worried about it than united, all right . Theyre over there battling each other, and its the best thing we can have happen for us, because i mean, granted, we got to keep our eye on them. We dont want them to come to our country, but theyre over there battling each other, it aint none of our business. Thats a civil war between them. To get involved in it would be stupid. Host john, michigan, republican line. John, youre on. Caller good morning. Host hi. Caller i guess i have quite a few things that id like to express on this. First of all, i think that this whats , a lot of going on, with the world economy. If we let this region collapse, it will dramatically affect the world. In saying that, though, this area has been, you know, battling for centuries. In the recent history, you take iraq, which we went in to take out, you know, a guy that, you know, was killing people in there. Then we went into egypt, took out mubarak. Then we went into and took out gaddafi. How are all those areas looking to you right now . Now were in afghanistan. Thats falling apart. You got syria. Hats falling apart. What we need to do is find a way to get out of there. We need to come back to our country. We need to develop the resources here so were not dependent on that area of the world for our energy, and the way this country is going right respect ave lost the of the world, and until we get that back, were in dire straits. I mean, im 70 years old. Host yes, sir. Go ahead and conclude. Caller im 70 years old, and i see this country going down the tubes. Host all right. Were going to leave it there. In other news, this is from the hill. Congressman pete sessions, a republican of texas, is out of the majority leader race, and mccarthy rises. Thats their headline. Kevin mccarthy is the only declared candidate right now for the majority leader position in the house of representatives. Also from the hill, cantor Campaign Manager blames the democrats. Outgoing House Majority leader eric cantors Campaign Manager is pinning the blame on democrats for his loss. Ray allen, in his first interview, told the hill said he believes cantor was a victim of meddling from democrats who crossed over in the primary to we had nst him, probably 15,000 cardcarrying democrats come into this primary. Theres just no way to anticipate Something Like that. Some allies are quietly furious that and he his team had no idea what was coming and blame a Weak Campaign for not recognizing he was in trouble. It goes on to say in this article that turnout was much higher in this primary than it was in 2012, but outside observers are highly skeptical that allens analysis about the democrats is correct. George Mason University professor michael mcdonald, a voting model expert, has crunched the precinct level data on what happened and said it was highly unlike that will enough democrats turned out to swing the election, noting that turnout increased more in heavily republican precincts than heavily democratic precincts this year. Thats from the hill newspaper. And also, one floor the hill, this is the majority whip. If Kevin Mccarthy becomes ma jort leader, his majority whip position is opened up. Thats the number three position essentially with the speakership being number one, majority leader, then majority whip. The two folks running right now, peter rossco of illinois, whos one of the current hes chief deputy whip right ow, and steve scalise, the head of a conservative group of lawmakers, those are the two declared candidates for majority whip. Harry, port roberts, washington, democrats line. Should the u. S. Intervene in iraq . Caller well, we should definitely keep our eye on whats going on there, and we need to let the president make the decisions he needs to make by including the countries that are in that area, and they should Work Together. Ive come up with some solution or whatever they can do. As far as mccain and screaming like i dont know what theyre screaming like, but its pretty obscene what theyre doing. Its up to the president. Hes the commander in chief. He needs to go in there, see what he can do, see if he can fix it. If he cant, we shouldnt there in the first place, because iraq has always been a problem. When Saddam Hussein was in there, everything was somewhat calm, and now theyve thrown an a bomb in there and theyre trying to make it work, and its not going to work. Its just impossible. Theyre going to have to try to do the best they can to fix it. But not send troops in or send missiles in to start blowing everybody up. Host tracy on our facebook page, when we asked the question, should the u. S. Intervene in iraq . No. How can we go back to iraq when we are in such a debt and supposedly pulling out of afghanistan . Why would we go back to a country and spend billions of dollars again only to leave and it go back the way it is now . This is not going to end. I served over there flying missions, tracy says. I served in the first gulf war. It is not going to change. The best thing we can do is send drones to help and that is it. We cannot afford the money it would cost, and we certainly do not need to lose any more of our fine men and women serving. If you want to make a comment and participate in the conversation on facebook, facebook. Com cspan. Here are some of the tweets hat weve been receiving host from politico this morning, jill abe rack son to teach at harvard. She will be teaching a narrative, nonfiction course in he fall at harvard university. And from the hill newspaper, mcdaniel is up in a new Mississippi Senate poll. Chris mcdaniel, 49 to 41 over thad cochran. That happened, that second primary in that race happens on june 24. Frederick is calling in from west lafayette, indiana. Frederick, youre on the air. Caller yes, good morning. I was motive ate to call because of what i car inflammatory nature of the headline there. The term intervention is a very emotionladen term. The callers that have come in before me have been, i think, pretty much emotionally involved, which is understandable. But what i would recommend is that when you talk about the u. S. Government policy, to use a term like participation, going back to the second world war, the United States joined allies in that war, and that was followed by a korean situation where we joined the United Nations in what was called the police action. People dont like that. Theyre emotional about it. Theyre thinking the United States is a big interventionist. Well, when you go to the vietnam situation, that was a case where we set up a group of countries that were trying to work collectively, and we had a bunch of allies. When you hear people talking about vietnam, they make it act like the allies that died alongside of us werent there. Then when you get back to host can you bring this caller the point is, the point is that, for your discussions to really be very beneficial, you should you should think these people, when theyre waving emotional terms around, what is it were really talking about . Everything is for the benefit of the United States. If up to the make people get upset about stuff, we were in afghanistan because it was in our interests. If we were in iraq, it was because it was in our interests. We were in vietnam, it was because it was our interest. Host all right. We appreciate you calling in. Bill tweets in, we lose iraq, we lose the ability to flank iran when we have to go in there, this is terrible. Dean is an iraqi vet, calling in from pennsylvania. Dean, youre on the washington journal. What do you think . Caller well, i just know one thing. If theyre going to use missiles or if theyre going to do air strikes, that i know they need Ground Troops on the ground to guide them in. What t fair, but thats happens. Host where did you serve and when did you serve in iraq . Caller i served in the early i got hurt, 3, and so did a lot of my buddies, and we came out, but were still fighting our war at home with the v. A. But we do know that when you do missile strikes, you do need people on the ground to guide them in there. Eople arent thinking of that. I do believe that all three branches of the government need to Work Together in order to figure this one out. The people that are incompetent incident need to just stay out of it and put the professionals in there that know how to solve this problem. Right now it seems like everybodys fighting everybody, and they need to come together and work as one. Thank you for your time. Host jose, new mexico, republican line. Jose, what do you think . Caller yes, hi, good morning. Yes, first of all, i agree with senator mccain that the president needs a new team of advisors. We need retired generals, people that really know what theyre talking about, people that know whats going on in the middle east. I think the president is not being served very well right now with who hes being advised by. And america is not being served well. I also think that, you know, we need to open up the Keystone Pipeline and things like that, so were not dependent on the middle east anymore. And as far as military action in iraq, well, i dont want to see Ground Troops there, i dont think they can do any more. But we cant let these terrorists take over either, and i dont know, they just said we would need Ground Troops for air strikes, and i dont know if thats really the case. I trust he knows more than i do, but, you know, i thought perhaps air strikes would be a good idea, but thats why we need experts. We need military generals and so forth. But we do need to obviously look at the big picture. We need to protect israel, our friend, our ally, and we need to protect jordan, the king there, because these are people that are americas friends. And i agree with the previous caller, we definitely need to pray. Host a couple of polls that have come out, americans like Hillary Clinton a lot less now than when she was secretary of state. This is from the national journal. Shes been voted most fired woman 18 times, and her favorability rating, which has dropped five points since february, remains positive, but americans like clinton a lot better when she was secretary of state before she became a speechgiving civilian whos toying with the idea of running for president. 54 , current favorability rating. Obama as unpopular as george w. Bush in a new poll. This is a new poll out by cnn. Just over half of those polls, 51 , have an unfavorable view of obama, and 51 currently feel the same about bush, according to a new poll. 47 of the public has a favorable rating of obama, which cnn said is a new low for him and roughly identical to ushs favorable rating of 46 . Finally, from the Washington Post, a poll finds in a polarized u. S. , we live as we vote. Political polarization is now deeply embedded in the u. S. , more so than at any time in recent history, according to the study, and its intensified in recent years. The percentage of americans who hold either consistently conservative or consistently liberal positions on major issues has doubled over the past decade and now accounts for 1 5 of all americans host thats a little bit from the Washington Post report on the pew poll. Laura tweets in that joe bidens idea that iraq should have been divided in thirds not sounding so wacky anymore. Joe, should the u. S. Intervene in iraq . Joe is calling on our democrats line from baltimore. Hi, joe. Caller how you doing this morning . How you doing, america . The last caller got me a little bit fired up, and this is off topic a little bit. You talking about israel being our friend. Israel is not our friend. The jews are friends, but israelis, theyre not so crazy about us. Now, should we intervene into iraq . Were already in iraq. Lets tell the truth about it. Remember, the reason why we pulled out of iraq was because we wanted to leave a residual force there. They agreed to leave a force in iraq from 3,000 to 6,000 troops. These no doubt are those ones who are taking over mosul, and the all the way into baghdad, they really work for us, so we really cant intervene. We cant drop bombs on people who already working for us. The weapons that theyre talking about sending in there to help the baghdad troops, to help the troops in baghdad to defend themselves, these weapons arent really going to baghdad troops. In fact, if you look at the news, been reading the news, youll see the baghdad troops have been leaving the towns and cities themselves. The reason why theyre leaving because their weaponry cannot stand up to the weaponry that the foreign fighters have. Remember, these foreign fighters worked for the united ates, military groups that band together to take over iraq y. . All because. Oil. People, dont worry about it. The president will not attack iraq, would not drop a bomb on any one of those terrorists over there, because they work for us. Bottom line. Thats the truth. Host joe in baltimore, and this is janine in columbia, missouri. Caller hello. Yes, i really basically my daughter, like i said, she went to iraq 10 days after high school. They pulled her in into the military, and not long after the things started in baghdad, they were there. Let me tell you, listening to everything, like my daughter said, if we dont if we dont keep them over there, if we dont keep them over there, theyre come here. And you know what . They were already here, like i told my daughter. The thing that disturbs me the most, im listening to all the conversations over the tv, and im just listening to a gentleman, and i ado agree about the oil and everything, but the thing that bothers me the most about United States is we are United States. Democrats, republicans, independents, we are all United States, and i hate to see this division between us. I hate to see parties, like people saying, oh, im a democrat, im a republican. No, were all United States citizens. And together we stand and divided we fall. You know, the thing thats keeping us with problems, even within our own country, within our own boundaries, is we have a division amongst ourselves. And until we can get that division amongst ourselves, we dont have to like each other. We dont have to like race or whatever, just get together, get the job done, then go your separate ways. Host all right, were going to leave it there and go to john in michigan. John, youre on the washington journal. John . Caller hello . Host were listening. Caller yeah. I want to say a couple of things, and i dont want to be cut off every time that i Say Something host john, youre going to have to be kind of quick here. Were almost out of time. Caller yeah, ok. 9 11 was an inside job host all right. We get the point. Thank you so much. We appreciate it. A couple of tweets to finish it out. Heres jan. You know, when they were mulling going into iraq, i had that sick feeling in my stomach. It hasnt gone away. And terry says, didnt we learn suffer enough already in blood and dollars . And jim says, only if they want quickly to go in, then get out, not like before. Those are a couple more tweets. If you want to participate in this conversation, you can continue calling in, because Michael Gordon of the New York Times is coming out here in just a minute. You can also go to facebook and continue this conversation. Pretty lively right now going on there. After Michael Gordon comes on, matt kibbe will be here, talking about some of the issues facing the Republican Party at this point. Youre watching the washington journal. One of the things people dont always views during the war of 1812, it was fought from 1812 until after 1814, early 1815, and it was really about the america reestablishing its independence against the british. This was sort of our second american revolution, and this flag is the object for which Francis Scott key penned the words which became our national anthem. This is the image in 1995 that the flag was made to look whole and restored, and there was a whole bottom section that was reconstructed. When the flag was moved into the new exhibition space, there was a deliberate decision by the curators not to do that again. What we wanted was that the flag becomes a metaphor for the country. Its tattered, its torn, but it still survives, and the message is really the survival of both the country and the flag, and were not trying to make it look pretty. Were trying to make it look like its endured its history and it still can celebrate its history. This year marks the 200th anniversary of the British Naval bombardment of fort mchenry during the war of 1812. Learn more about the flag Francis Scott key wrote about while we tour the smithsonians star spangled banner exhibit, sunday night at 6 00 and 10 00 p. M. Eastern, part of American History tv this weekend on cspan3. When i started covering congress, you had people like nator russell long, wilbur mills, danny rostenkowski, howard baker, people who were giants in their own way. Now, a couple of those guys got themselves into trouble, but overall, these were people who knew how they were all very intelligent. They knew how to craft legislation. They knew how to do a deal, and they all worked with whoever the president was, whether it was their party, the other people. Yes, there was politics, but at the end of the day, they usually found a way to come together and make decisions for the good of the country. Today, you just see that anymore. First of all, i think the quality of members of congress, the house and senate, in terms of their intelligence and their work ethic, has diminished. I mean, theres still great people, and i shouldnt malign there are wonderful members on both sides, but i think that theyre a minority. I think increasingly people are driven by the politics and by their own selfsurvival, and, you know, i think the hardest work they do is raising money. Its not learning the issues. Its not crafting deals. Its making speeches and, you know, positioning themselves to get reelected. Emmy awardwinning journalist lisa myers is leaving washington, d. C. , behind. Find out why, sunday night at 8 00 on cspans q a. Washington journal continues. Host Michael Gordon, is the u. S. Going to intervene mill tailor in iraq . In your view . Guest well, it depends what you mean by intervention. If youre talking about sending more advisors, i think thats very possible. We already have some there, although in extremely limited capacity. If youre talking about air strikes, the Iraqi Government has been really asking for that for months and hasnt gotten it, and president obama said yesterday that all options are on the table. I would say it cannot be excluded, but i dont think its likely immediately, in the immediate future. Host why not . Guest because the white house, when president obama took office, in his eyes, one of his signature Foreign Policy accomplishments is ending the war in iraq, and i think from a political standpoint, hes reluctant to acknowledge, really, that the war never really ended. What ended was the american presence, military presence in iraq, but not the war, and were seeing that now. Host looking at your article in this mornings New York Times, the iraqi army was crumbling long before its collapse, u. S. Officials say. Is there time to ponder and to look at the situation for a while . Guest the time to have done this was a year or two ago. Immediately after American Forces left iraq, anthony blinkin, now president obamas National Security advisor, gave a speech in which he boasted really that violence was at historic low, and the message from the administration was everything was in good shape. But in reality, all of these factors were at work. If theres going to be a solution for iraq, it cant just be one thing. It cant be air strikes or advisors. It has to be kind of a holistic solution, as the administration likes to say. It has to involve political reform t. Has to fwolve a more inclusive Iraqi Government. Its going require the iraqi armed forces, better commanders, and i think from the military standpoint, its logical to think that if the situation deteriorates, the iraq has no air force, might knead some additional help from the United States. Host is baghdad in danger at this point . Guest i dont think so. I think as sweeping as the insurgent advances have been with the fall of mosul, and they control fallujah, now theyre in tikrit, moving where the oil refinery is, i dont think theyre going to topple the city per se, but i think theres a very good chance that theyre going to infiltrate the areas, the socalled belt around baghdad, and use them as sanctuaries to launch suicide and car bomb attacks into baghdad. Theres already some of that going on now. This is precisely the tactic they used against the United States, and so they were pushed out by the american surgery and general petraeus in 2007 and 2008, and i think its likely theyll return to that. Host Michael Gordon, were you surprised at how fast this seems to have come on, or have you been monitoring this for a stpwhile est well, these days, im though i covered the iraq war, covering the state department, got a whole big world to track, im not surprised that al qaeda in iraq, which is basically the group thats come back under a w moniker, al qaeda for iraq and the levant, sometimes known as isis, im not surprised theyve come back, because weve taken the heat off. And this is a group that doesnt respect borders, so theyre in syria, and theyre in iraq. Nobody is really putting the heat on them in syria, and nobody has been putting the heat on them in iraq. This is a problem of american intelligence. You can go back and read the testimony to congress six, nine moss ago. And also, mosul, which fell last week, has been under siege. An article i did with my colleague in december, we noticed that at night, the insurgents controlled mosul. Hat said, yes, im surprised at the speed of the Iraqi Military collapsed. Host wasnt almaliki just reelected . Guest this have a parliamentary system, and his party did better than expected in the voting, and so hes on track to serve another term, and he exploited the unrest in iraq politically to present himself as the strong shia figure who would stand up against sunni insurgents. The tragedy is that he hasnt been the sort of mandelalike figure who could bring people in iraq together, so while he benefited politically in the narrow sense, hes endangered his country in the process. Host 202 is the area code if you want to talk about iraq and the situation there with Michael Gordon, chief military correspondent for the New York Times, 5853881 for republicans. 5853880 for democrats. 5853882 for independents. Twitter and you can send an email as well, journal ath an. Org, or twitter cspanwj. Where does iran fit into this . Guest iran is a big part of this. Theyre not behind these insurgent attacks at all. But they have extensive influence in iraq. Theyve contributed millions of dollars under the table to all of the shia parties, and theyve basically told the senior iraqi leadership that if they need irans help, iran will intervene not so much by sending their own operatives, but by training and mobilizing iraqi shia groups and putting them at the governments beck and call. They trained militants to attack troops and furnish them with the weapons to attack american troops, including a very deadly type of i. E. D. Throughout the iraq war. Iran did. So they were sort of involved in a proxy war against the United States throughout the whole iraq war. But theyre in a position to do that again. So i dont think, if that happens, i think it wont be for the good. If the shia militias begin to enter the fray, and there are already indications of that, then you have the makings of a sectarian war in iraq, in syria, really across the whole kind of greater middle east area with all sorts of very serious consequences for turkey, jordan, saudi arabia, all of the states in the region. Host the Financial Times talked about the kurds, kurds see chance as fighters head to kirkuk. How does this affect the kurds up in the north . Guest the kurds, the kurds are part of iraq, but theyve always had a semiautonomous status. They have their own military force who are quite capable, but basically light infantry. O you dont see these al qaeda insurgents. After mosul, they went south toward baghdad. They didnt go north or east into kurdistan, because the kurds have a defense capability. But what theyre likely to do, to secure their own interests and also maybe to expand their realm of control, to move more into the disputed area of kirkuk, which is an oilrich area, which has long been an area of contention, they may see this as a chance not only to protect themselves, but also to grab some territory, which has been disputed, which will add to the kind of fractious sectarian situation. Host how much time have you spent in iraq . Guest well, i wrote three books about it, and i covered the First American war, the desert storm war, and then i was there for the invasion as an embedded correspondent in baghdad and fallujah and all these places. And i wrote two more books about it. But i probably spent sort of on the ground in an embedded, physically on the ground with the soldiers type situation a couple of years, and, you know, ive been there as a visitor, you know, ive covered the invasion, i covered the terrible sectarian violence. I covered the surge. It did work as a military operation. And then i covered the postsurge and withdrawal of the troops. I was last there with secretary kerry, who visited iraq early on, but unfortunately, the administration has not been that engaged with iraq. When kerry was there, who has all sorts of energy, he was there once for several hours. I believe Hillary Clinton was there once as secretary of state. Vice President Biden has been there more often, but really, hes been trying to deal with it by telephone primarily, periodically. So the level of Political Engagement by the ministration has not been as intensive as it might have been, and this isnt lost on the iraqis, unfortunately. Host in your last book about iraq, it was called the end game. Who was your coauthor . Guest a retired marine, three star. What i did then, by the way, i took it through the withdrawal of american troops and the failed negotiation, because we did try to kind of tried to keep troops in iraq, pretty much like theyre planning to do temporarily in afghanistan, and that negotiation failed. But what the book did was it identified, i think, some of the factors that are now leading to iraqs unraveling, which is limited american engagement and attention, limited attention, and also sectarian and authoritarian behavior by maliki, which we were not so much in the position to curb as we had before, because we didnt have a presence there, and we werent that engaged. Host could drones and air strikes slow down isis . Guest well, thats an excellent question, and a more complicated question than some people think. The Iraqi Foreign minister suggested on the record last august in washington that drones be considered, almost a year ago. Nothing happened. And at the time, the administration said, well, its just the foreign ministry, its not maliki, but then by march, maliki himself was signaling an openness to drones and air strikes, becausealiki, but theyd see their position was desperate, and iraq does not have a significant air force. He cannot reach out and bombed these camps. If the goal is to hit these camps or hit guys as they are coming across this area where they are coming from, air power can be effective at doing that for sure. We do it for ourselves in afghanistan, so i presume we think it is effective. But where it is very collocated is now. Combing goldforces with each other. You have insurgents who have captured american weapons, prisoners who wear iraqi uniforms, and telling the combatants apart without the people on the ground is quite difficult, so it is not at this stage from a purely military perspective, they could play a role, but they are not, you know, you require good intelligence, and it is not a very how would you use them in mosul . But i think yes, they could contribute. The point i would make is again the holistic approach. Before the United States offers to use its forces i think from an analytical perspective, it should continue the condition this as they number of experts commitment to reform the armed forces, to not take commanders based on narrow political considerations, otherwise we are just adding another military tool into a conflagration, but if it was part of a package in which political steps were taken, i could see how it could be a benefit. Host Michael Gordon does the New York Times have reporters on the ground in baghdad . Guest yeah. Host one of the last time you talk to them . What is the feeling over there yo . Times in an age of constricting coverage, we have been bringing around the bureau treats, i just teeth, i just saw him, we have people in baghdad, we have an in networkoo, of iraqi correspondence around the country who by the way cannot always be identified by name due to fear of retribution, times has a presence there. Im not sure i can say that about the television networks. Can twitter question someone explain to me how the u. S. Supports sunnis fighting assad shia in theory and support ki sunni in iraq . Good question. A what the questioner is raising is there is a group, this isis group respects no borders. They have established their throughd caliphate western and northern iraq, and they are interested in controlling this territory, and it is a sunni group. Formed out of al qaeda and iraq. Is a problem that spans borders, but when the American Government looks at these ourlems, unfortunately National Security bureaucracy looks at these problems in isolation. We have a team that works in syria, we have a team that works iraq, we have a team that works lebanon, but all these factors are colliding and interacting, and what you need is a strategy for the two. I would say our support for the Syrian Opposition is extremely modest, and our ambassador i wrote a story about this and our ambassador to syria left, and he said he could not support modulated, a very career guide who served everywhere, a careful, methodical person, not little partisan. He said he could not support the policy because we were not supporting the opposition in a significant way. They talked about supporting them in a sieve and way, but they have not so far. But the challenge is to craft a works in syria and iraq, and one way in which it thenot be so difficult if opposition were in theory supporting in syria was also opposed to this al qaedaled group, there are sunnis opposed to this sunni group because they are more moderate. So it is possible to support them because they also oppose the same group maliki opposes, but i do think we need i therege malik need to be significant sunnis in the Maliki Coalition so does the government of iraq versus the insurgents, not shia versus sunni insurgents. Doesnt this throw us back into the assad group too . Guest how so . Host we do not want to develop, iraq does not want it developed. So guest no, i think it is more sinister than that. Assad presents himself as the bulwark against extremists, and there is some evidence that there is a bit of a tacit understanding between the Assad Government and this Al Qaedalinked group. When he carried out bombing raids, he sometimes existed exempted i. S. I. S. Targets. To assadp is useful because as long as they are around, he can say hey, it is either me or al qaeda, and that is the argument indeed he made to the world. So it is a complex situation, ad i think this group is danger to america because they have created a kind of an extremist say swearing from which attacks can be launched against western interests, but i do not think backing assad is the solution. Host Michael Gordon, chief military correspondent for the New York Times is our gu ests. Iraqve a fourth line for veterans as well, we want to hear from you, [no audio] 202 5853883. We want to hear from you. Our first call is an independent, jane. What has do believe all got in me, we must stay out of that war. They have had civil wars before, and if they have a civil war, they must take care of themselves. We should not intervene, not one bit. It is none of our business anymore than we are their business. If they tried to intervene on us here, then we intervene. Jane, just to play devils advocate for a minute, what if the current government in iraq falls, and there is some chaos over there, does that affect us . Not affect it should us at all. What is going to affect us if we intervene in any way at all, that is going to affect us. It is going to get us in their civil war, and then there will war, and open world that is not worth it one bit. Host mr. Gordon. I am not here to advocate a position, but i think you need to keep two things in mind first off, according to the fbi, homeland security, the american intelligence experts, senior american officials, on the record i am sure you have covered these things on cspan has now got a sanctuary in northeast syria. They control a great swath of territory in iraq, and jihadists from all over the world have fought to join up. Including americans. There was recently a case, as you know, in syria where an american citizen carried out a suicide bombing attack. In syria. The great fear of American Intelligence Community is that some of these jihadists who have joined this group, which now has toanctuary, may return western europe, to the United States and present a terrorist threat here. Indeed president obama addressed this concern in his speech just two weeks ago at west point. It is very concerning. So it does affect us. Securityan american stake here. If this group maintains the iraq,ary in theory a and in syria and iraq, it could prevent a terrorist threat against western interests. Second point iraq is a major oil producer, i wrote it down, 2. 5 Million Barrels laid a day. And they picked up the slack for the chaos in libya and also the affect the sanctions have had on the worlds oil supply. Most of the iraqi oil is in the southern part of the country, not in the north, but there is some in the north. If you were to have a total collapse of iraq and the iraqi state, this would affect the world oil supplies will stop indeed in the financial pages today, you will see Oil Prices Going up. This will have an affect on economic growth. This is happening today. At a time when the iraqi stake te is still intact and the oil insecure in the south. From those economic and security standpoint, i think the United States does have a stake in what happens in iraq. Host do you have any idea how Many Americans are currently in iraq . They fall into two categories. There is the embassy personnel, which is probably any i do not know the precise figure, but you know, probably in the thousands. And then there is the office of security cooperation, maybe 100 or 200 people, which basically concerns itself with Foreign Military sales and some mentoring of iraqi forces, but it is very limited. But there is a contractor presence because iraq has been purchasing with its own money billions of dollars of its own money american Weapons Systems including f16s. And yesterday, the state Department Spokeswoman put out a statement that these contractors were being pulled back. I do not know if they are leaving the country to go back to the moc compound, but being moved as a precaution. Presenceis an american here, but obviously nothing like what used to be. Host southern iraq, bosnia, pretty serene, safe . Guest safe is not a word i but basara but bos is pretty well removed. It is so far removed from these operations in the west and north. Sea of tranquility tweets into you where did the i. S. I. S. Militants in iraq get their weapons . Who supports them . Guest it is a good question. First off, i. S. I. S. Militants are in syria and iraq, and the leader is physically in syria to the best of our knowledge, so they do not respect this border. They moved back and forth. Support. A lot of fromhave a lot of weapons that congregation. Plus, even more ominous, suicide bombers. Get of these jihadist repurposed for the fight in iraq, and the rate was 30, 40, or 50 a month of suicide bombers. If you had 30 or 40 suicide bombings in this country every month, you can imagine the effect it would have on us because they can be and evenically militarily and now he unfortunately, they captured a lot of weapons. When they took mosul, they captured iraqi weapons, american weapons, some significant weapons. The prison and liberated some of the worst of the worst who cannot join their cause. And where to get their money echo they are mostly selfless any because what al qaeda and iraq did, and i covered them before the surge, they were selfsustaining financially. They had kidnapping, they had extortion, kind of like a criminal syndicate. Now they have the oil refinery or at least they might. Estate, they would be control over homes in mosul and go to the government say we are selling this and demanded the rockets. They had intimidation, they were going to businesses and shaking them down. Al qaeda and iraq was actually selfsustaining financially during the american war in iraq. It did not rely on outside flows of cash from al qaeda central, and i suspect even more so because they control more territory. Host thomas from texas, you were on with Michael Gordon of the New York Times. To movet, were going to mike and or word, massachusetts, democrats line in norwood, massachusetts, democrats line. Caller good morning. I will say no, we do not go back into iraq. It is like history repeating itself. I make an analogy with the vietnam war. We had to the country for know, theasons, you domino puree. We fought the war, and then we withdrew, handing the war over to the local troops. He local troops could not hold they abandoned their uniforms, they gave up, and we just looked on helplessly as the population abandoned the country. Exactly what happened in vietnam 40 years ago is happening today. I say no. We cannot get involved in iraq at all. With Ground Troops, planes, anything. Is that a fair comparison to you, vietnam comparison . Guest no one is proposing sending in Ground Troops. Present obama is regarded as a hawkish figures. He said air tricks he said air strikes are an option, but he has not talked about Ground Troops. You dont want to get in on the way we were before. They are talking about limited airstrikes and a steppedup advisory effort. I think you would have to consider the airstrikes in seriousoo, if you are about this militarily because they are on both sides of the border. I think the their analysis is to use afghanistan in this sense. What happened was we got out of iraq at the end of 2011, pretty much lock, stock, and barrel. The iraqim with military as they were well known. And from a purely military standpoint, i think the Iraqi Military and the American Literary would agree they need more advice, and american advisers, more kind of very limited american presence just to help them stay steady on their feet and maintain our influence there. Now we have a plan to get out of afghanistan at the end of 2016, and it is pretty much on the iraq model. There are going to be no advisors in the field with the afghan troops after 2015. There is is going to be the small office at the embassy as there is currently in baghdad. I think the cautionary message , and iflooking at iraq you are concerned about the Current Situation in iraq, is that what were going to be looking forward to in afghanistan after 2016 . Samese we are using the template. All troops out, and we are going to run a very limited and almost certainly inadequate advisory effort out of the embassy, and if we do not like what we are seeing in iraq, we should adjust the plan in afghanistan, not to fight their war but play more of an advisory role for their forces. Host ron tweet sent to you mr. Gordon, every intervention in the middle east has resulted Islamic Jihad gaining ground. Guest i think the reason this Islamic Group has been so and iraq has syria been because the United States created a bit of a military and security and political vacuum with this withdrawal that they have exploited. Of a presence that has created the space for this group to grow, and not the presence. Host how much do we know about the leader, baghdadi . He is a known figure because he fight against the americans, but there are others that joined this fray and commanders, there is a chechen a lot of jihadists have sort of flocks to this cause. Once they get a cause, people kind of rotten to the sound of suicide bombers, and so they have grown in strength. This is a group that has been on the American Intelligence Communitys radar for some time. Barbara, new jersey, independent line. Michael gordon of the New York Times is our guest. Caller good morning, mr. Gordon. Real fast question. I believe fear demands request. Based on the current presidency s decision to advertise and prematurely withdrawal our troops, has this contributed to what is going on today, and how important is it now for us to secure our borders . I will hang up and take my answer off the air, thank you for taking my call. Guest the reason we do not have troops in iraq is a cop located one and i try to untangle it all in the book. There are a lot of iraqi blame to go around on this, too. President obama engage in negotiation with the Iraqi Government and offered them the chance to maintain a small. Merican presence only with maybe a squadron and a half of air craft. Maliki wanted an american presence. He told me so in an interview i did with him in 2011, but he did not think he could get the approval of the iraqi parliament, and in the end, there were some a lot of the iraqis did not request the, did not get it through their think therest i also some response ability on the american side because the Current Administration imposed a pretty hard bar for keeping american troops there, which was not only that the Iraqi Government requested and approved it, but that they approved by the iraqi parliament, and is in fact was not a requirement that the Bush Administration imposed. So i would say there is a lot of ambivalence in the white house about keeping troops there, but they did offer to do it if the iraqis could meet their high standards, but i think there is really probably responsibility on both sides for why the negotiations did not pan out, and certainly not just on the american side, although i do think the american ambivalence was apparent to the iraqis, the American Government ambivalence. I do not have a perspective on the border issue. Host michael ward up of book about iraq is called the theame the inside story of struggle for iraq, from george w. Bush to barack obama. General Bernard Trainor is the coauthor. John is on our iraq vets line. Good morning. Caller good morning. I was there in 2003. I am concerned about this. They really open a can of worms there. Those people are wonderful people. I have been on the ground with them. They are a good people. There is a void left by Saddam Hussein, they had no identity. They never had a chance to get their feet on the ground. It takes much, much more time. They are very motivated al , you know, and i am not sure about this administration and our motivation, so they know that there is not motivation on our part, so they will keep the dancing. It will be an effect on the world much more than people really think. I think we need to be have at least an air base there and maybe somehow special forces, embassies there. We never should have gotten fully out of there. People have a country to be a part of this world and move on, and these radical islamics are just taking over and without regard, and they have no conscience, believe me. These people they do not care. Host john, thank you. Michael gordon. Guest i think that is a perspective that a lot of people , not all, but a lot of people, especially senior levels in the u. S. Military share that from a , ifly military perspective the politics could have been worked out between the American White House and Prime Minister maliki, and a greater effort would have made to work them out, the negotiations were very brief. I think on the whole, the negotiations over keeping american troops in iraq, president obama only spoke with maliki twice at the beginning and at the end. Anwas not as intensive made ins is being afghanistan right now. I would say most American Military people and on the iraqi side, we would have preferred to see a limited american presence, not to fight the war, but to train iraqi forces and maybe give them some intelligence and air support and just maintain a greater degree of influence with the iraqi Prime Minister. I think that is a military perspective. Host a tweet the socalled democrats that we prop up over there alienated their populations by their greed and corruption. Has there been evidence that the current government is corrupt . Guest well, i think it is corrupt when it comes to power. And this is my point, that while somebody can make a case for airstrikes, and indeed the iraqis would have liked them months ago, and they might have made more of a difference months obama think president himself has considered, it can only be a part of it. The bigger problem is the way premature maliki have kind of conducted himself the bigger problem is the way Prime Minister maliki has kind of conducted himself. But he does not share power. He has chased some of his sunni officials in his government out of power, threatened to arrest them. Inclusive been an figure who has built in ties and share power with the Sunni Community. He has abused some of his power. Their procedures for how to be commander in chief in iraq, you who reports directly to him, he does not need parliaments approval. Does not create a more inclusive government unity, i think one reason this and surging group at some basis support of population is fear, but the other group as much of the Sunni Community has been alienated, and alienated from government. Maliki and the people around him need to think that, either by getting a new premise or by i to change his ways. That has got to be part of any coherent american strategy. That is something the United States should have pursued a year or two ago and set up waiting for the crisis to arrive on its doorstep. From what you know but the pentagon, would they be ready right now is something military were to happen . The pentagon can do what needs to be done, but as i pointed out, you cant just carry out airstrikes unless you you have a scorecard and you can tell the good guys from the bad guys, and that takes a little wouldve doing. We would have to gather intelligence, we would have to put at least a teams of people to help plant some of the stuff, drums have to be within range drones have to be within range of the targets. On the other hand, we occupied the country for many years. It was the most important war much of the pentagon ever fought in. Almost all of the pentagon leadership, general odeirno, general dempsey, this is a country that people in the pentagon know where he well, politically and militarily, they probably know better than the white house. Anne, reading, pennsylvania. Caller hello, mr. Gordon, my why is the border closed in view of the events going on in syria . Why is it so difficult to contain them close to the border . Guest that is a good question. I mean, even when the americans 150,000, one hundred 60 thousand troops there, we do not control the border. That is a long border. Far away. It is next to a country where there is a raging civil war. The iraqi forces have had some forces up and along the border. They have not been very effective at controlling it. To controlhing is a long border, it is really important to have air assets. You cannot just depend on a guy driveehicle who can maybe 50 kilometers this way or that way. You need air assets. They do not have them. They did not have a real air force. They are now just building in the fall some f16s. They do not have their own drones. The drones we have given them only recently a very short range. I mean, this would have been to really do Something Like an effective way, this would have been an area where american and iraqi cooperation might have been fruitful. Not to put our own people on the border, but to help them keep an eye on their border through our air. That has not really happened in any significant way. Host from what you know, Michael Gordon, Lynn Holly Hanson asks how to the iraqi people feel about the u. S. . Well, it is a cop located question because the iraqi sunnis, theyy are are shia, they are kurds, so they all have their own separate perspective on the United States, and within the shia, there are many different varieties, and some are close to iran, some are religious, some are more secular, so each community is kind of atomized and broken up. I would say the kurds traditionally have been very strong supporters of the United States and would welcome a greater american involvement. The vice President Biden has good relationships with them. Theyre disappointed the United States is not focus more on iraq, but they still enjoy very strong ties with the United States. The Sunni Community the used to be very positive for the United States, ironically because during the search, we were the protectors of the sunni against some of the shia militias, but i would say they are very alienated from the current yes,nt, and i dont the sunni leaders American Government talks to, but the absence i cannot even begin to tell you what sunnis think about america today. I think within the Shia Community i think the fact that america is only episodically been engaged in , diplomatically at the senior levels, i think has had an effect, and i had shared an email with a very i had an email exchange with a very senior iraqi official just yesterday, and i said what do you want . ,nd email the came back said had a kind of a bitter undertones and it was Something Like at this point, we do not think there is anything you will really do for us. And we are not counting on you. I think reflects some sentiment within the iraqi leadership that the united littlemoved out just a quickly, even though granted the iraqis were part of that decision process, but you know, there are others. Thingsis asking for from the United States. I do not think the iraqis want american troops on the ground than i do not think we want our troops on the ground, so i think there is agreement on that, but i think within the iraqi leadership, they want a greater american role but kind of in a supporting capacity, not doing the fight for them. Host is there panic in baghdad . Guest yesterday in a closed hearing, the Senate Armed Services committee, the senior American General who trains iraqi forces, i was told by a congressional member who attended, related to these congressmen that some of the iraqi soldiers to protect the green zone where the iraqi readership is wear thei civilian clothes under their military uniforms, the message being if the situation get out of control, they could just throw off their uniforms and blend into the population and run away. So i would say no, there is not panic in baghdad, and i do not think baghdad is going to fall in the near future, but there is sufficient need that the military there has given some thought to going awol if it comes to that. So i would say yeah, there is probably a lot of unease, and it permeates the security structure, which is unfortunate. Host Michael Gordon with the New York Times, thank you for being on the washington journal. One hour and a half left on our program. We will turn our attention to politics. Matt kibbe of freedomworks will be with us, and then we will look at this months the atlantic. Tanehisi coates has written a story about reparation. This is the washington journal. We will need to learn again how to Work Together, how to compromise, how to make pragmatic decisions. Upcoming midterm elections, americans will have choices to make about which path they want to go down and weather will make the investments we in our people. I will leave that discussion to others. But for a lot of us in the private and nonprofit sectors, we have work to do, too. Government does not have a monopoly on good idea, obviously, and even if it wanted, it could not and should thetry to stosolve all problems by itself. We have response abilities to do what we can. Write Hillary Clintons latest book is called hard choices, about her time as secretary of state and how her experience as shaped her views of the future. Today on cspan two, watch coverage of secretary clinton starting at 6 00 p. M. Eastern, followed by a book signing in arlington, virginia live at 11 00 a. M. Eastern. Both events will reair saturday night starting at 8 30. Booktv television for serious readers every week and on cspan2. Cspans new book sundays at includes Huffington Post senior military correspondent david wood. There is something that drives them to this ideal of it is like so many ,eople i know who had served the intensity of the experience, the intensity of the relationships they have with their combat buddies are so true that so pure and they look back on those times with longing. I have always asked them do you wish this had never happened . And they are like i would do it again in a heartbeat. I think theres Something Else and ites on there, too, is that going through a somehowth experience seems to give them so much strength and courage and i think that is one reason why they would do it again. Read more of our conversation with david wood and other featured interviews from our book knows and q a programs in nowans sundays at eight, available for a fathers day gift at your favorite bookseller. Washington journal continues. Host matt kibbe of freedomworks , it is looking like Kevin Mccarthy is going to be the majority leader. Yeah, it is interesting, the republicans have a tendency to pick the next guy in line, particularly when it comes to leadership races. It is such an inside game that anybody within the web structure has a competitive advantage. I think labrador will give them a run for it. I like competition, and i think it would be good for fiscal conservatives to get a seat at the table. I also think that the leadership should probably learn something from this about inclusiveness. I think they have been a little heavyhanded. Eric cantor is certainly prove that in his district in virginia. They might think that this is a good time where we all sit down and say ok, how do we actually Work Together on some things that matter . What you think about Kevin Mccarthy . Guest guest i think he is a typical product of the eric cantor leadership model. I would not criticize him specifically, but i would suggest that the old, very topdown this is what were going to do model of house leadership does not function in a distinct allies in a centralized world anymore. It used to be the case, this is not just john boehner, but new egrets before him, that but Newt Gingrich before him would come down and say these are the priorities that we were going to ruled the house with a lot of that. Today, with so many factions within the gop, i think a different type model is important, and im not sure the Kevin Mccarthy understands the new world, and im not sure eric cantor ditty, either. Did, either. Host is eric cantor a conservative in your view . Guest he would be a conservative by the centers of the 1990s and 2000 gop. Today the challenge for cantor areer republicans is they actually able to set out a clear line of ideas that separate themselves from the democrats . This is what hurt him. He was trying to split the difference on some of harry reids really bad ideas, like the immigration bill, instead of saying this is what the gop wants to do, not just on immigration but on other things. And they started with that. I am not suggesting that is easy to do, but republicans have won when they actually represent a set of ideas. It happened with ronald reagan, it happened in 1994, and it theened in 2010 with contract from america. Host matt kibbe, that is a lot of inside baseball that you gave us. Were the people in the seventh district of virginia aware of all this inside baseball . Guest they were innocents because there is that same fight for control of the virginia gop, and i think this was eric cantors achilles heel. He was viewed as a reagan fan topdown and out of touch not only with his district but with the people across the state of virginia. He tried to game the system of the convention process. 20 20 hindsight, we all should have seen this coming, but we did not of course. Host we are talking with matt kibbe of freedomworks. 202 5853881 for republicans, 202 5853880 for democrats, and 202 5853882 for independents. What is of freedomworks and what is your philosophy . Guest freedomworks is a grassroots educational the group to educate people about not just be political process but ideas based on Economic Freedom and individual responsibility and fiscal conservatism. A lot of people think that we are a political organization, and i would argue that that is just a small part of the services that we provide to our members. We are primarily about the link community. We are what barack obama would Call Community organizers but perhaps with a very different agenda. Host would you consider yourself a libertarian, a conservative . Very we lean conservative, but the proper a phrase is probably classical liberal. We focus on economics. We do not get involved in a lot of social issues. But there is a clear trend is not just with the gop but Public Opinion particularly amongst young people trending more libertarian, and you are seeing this with civil liberties, you were seeing it with the popularity of senators like rand salience thes of this whole idea the withinent should live its means. We are talking about the fourth and fifth amendments at the equally important, and that cuts across the old conservative liberal model. You are on the air. Caller good morning. Thank you for taking my call. I have an issue with the fact that everybody is saying eric cantor is not conservative enough. Today romney is not in the white house because of folks like cantor, and we need to embrace the immigration issue and other factors. Yesterday or the day before when eric cantor had the news conference, he started by saying something to the fact that he grew up in a hebrew home and cited something from the old testament. How much of this is due to the fact that he was overly ambitious to become speaker . He is the only male republican jew in the congress. All right, we got the point. Mickey, that has been raised in a couple of different areas, the fact that eric cantor is jewish. Guest i think that had absolutely nothing to do with that, and i think he would be the first one to say it. He was a successful republican politician not only in virginia but right across the street here. But the first point is important because i think a lot of people would go back and say you know what, he spent so much time trying to run for speaker that he forgot that he represented the people of virginia. There is a hubris there, and i think that is one of the factors that led to his defeat. A lot of people had said that this was a victory for the tea party. It is depending on how you define the tea party. If the tea party is an ecosystem as a grassroots matters and that people are showing up and getting more involved and more connected in the political process, yes, absolutely. And there are a lot of Tea Party Leaders across this district that were very involved in this, but if it is about capital t, capital p tea party, that is not what this is about. This is about the empowerment and democratization of citizens. I think that is a very healthy process. It is not just happening in the gop it is happening with the democrats as well. Host where were you when you found out that eric cantor lost and how shocked were you . Guest we were in our office, and we were surprised, even though some of the activists had told us that this was going to happen. Of course we hear that and a lot of these races and it is not always work out that way. Bratd spoken with david and work right and were white impressed with him. He is a conservative economist, but wow, that was something andow with obviously he made history. But it will not happen all the time. The advantages of incumbency are very important, and Mitch Mcconnell prove that. But i would go back to Joe Lieberman in 2006. People do not remember this, but the Progressive Left beat Joe Lieberman, a very powerful incumbent senator, and really disrupted the status quo, and you were seeing this more and more. There is a trend line here. Barack obama did the same thing as Hillary Clinton. That new poll out showing Chris Mcdaniel is about eight points over thad cochran. New york times says the mississippi senator has a plan for avoiding a cantorlike fate by saying we will expand our pool of voters. Guest certainly the cantor defeat what wins in the sales of the activists in mississippi. I was with them on election night, and the first thing they said is are you guys still going to be with us . And i said of course. I would suggest that it is Wishful Thinking on the part of the Thad Cochrans campaign that they can expand the voter pool at this point because democrats who of already voted are not eligible to vote in a runoff runoff, so traditionally lower turnout affairs, and this race will be won on the ground. All of the energy, all of the machinery of put up the vote is on the side of mcdaniel. Journal hastreet a story about the Oklahoma Senate race. Do you guys have a dog in this fight . Twst yes, we have endorsed shannon, and i think this will be a dip or type of test for our community because there is a third candidate as well that is betweeng the votes shannon, and im struggling to butk of the guys name, langford is clearly be established toys, and i think the lesson coming out of north where we try to beat tom tiller, who was the establishment choice, is we split our votes, and if we split our vote two or three ways, it is hard to win, and i think that will be the test here. It is not a perfect analogy. W. Shannon is the speaker of the house there. He is not an economics with us or would be characterized as a complete outside insurgent. Host mike in kingston, you were on with matt kibbe of freedomworks. Caller thank you for taking my call. Let me comment on something the previous caller said about the reason eric cantor lost or the reason that romney lost. Romney was not a true conservative. Romney was losing primaries. The people did not want him. He was next in line, and it has been said that had all the had all he people who voted for mccain voted for romney, romney would be president today, but the main theg i wanted to ask, but tea party is not an actual party, it is a movement, a conservative movement. What if the republican establishment allow the liberal mainstream moderators i mean media to always moderate the debates when it comes time to be president ial debate . And when it comes up for Supreme Court nominees, what they always say elections have consequences . Why dont we stand up and fight against these soto mayors and kagans . One of the bozo they can vote against the Supreme Courts they cannot get a why dont they get out and vote against the Supreme Court . Part of it,ee with the gop has a responsibility to control the rules of debate as long as we do not cut out all of but they should limit the number and they should control who the moderator is because they very much let other people do find the narrative and change the subject. The supremeion of court, i think we are learning this the hard way, the reality is that Public Opinion and grassroots pressure applied to the courts as much as they apply to congress. It is our job tas citizens to show up, get educated, and drive the opinions because the courts read the papers, too. Judges look at Public Opinion polls. It may not be what we like to happen, but it happens. We need to step up to that challenge. Host matt kibbe, when you go to mississippi, what exactly does freedomworks do when youre down there . Guest we have been sitting down with the activists since december 2013. 35 grassroots leaders from across the state, representing their networks. The first thing we do is ask them what do you want to do . Voteally it is get out the efforts. And what typically insurgent campaigns do not have his basic materials like yard signs and door hangers and phone lists and walking maps. That is what we do. If you think about the Service Center model like to politics, we typically do not do mass shoe leatherdo politics because that is what the activists want to do. In this new world, the decentralized model of tapping into all of that local energy is the way that we get the upset victories that sometimes we see. Host so you get the money for that type of activity . We are a super pac, so we cannot coordinate with a campaign at all. We produce materials that say vote for Chris Mcdaniel, retire thad cochran. We come up with precinct walk on data and all the stuff that is simply done, and we split up the work. And i will be in five cities across the state and this is basically our launch. We scramble to produce a whole new set of materials after primary night, and this is what they needed. This is what they asked for, and decidingnk, was one factor leading up to our victory that tuesday. Host isnt that a coordination when you say what you want guest no, you are talking to citizens. Youre not talking to members of mcdaniels campaign. We are happy to report that citizens still have a First Amendment rights to produce pagan politics, and we hope it stays that way, but no, it is very much outsource. I would also point out that quite often the opportunities that we pursue we do not get involved in every race, but quite often the opportunities that we do pursue are brought to us by our activists. We surveyed them, we ask them which races they think matter, and we keep pushing them to show us why they think that is true. That is how we discovered mike leigh in utah i think before anybody else. That is how we knew ted cruz had. Raction it is part of this model. There is a lot of local knowledge that all of us in d. C. Do not have, and if you are humble enough to ask for, sometimes you can get it. Host why are you headquartered in d. C. . Guest that is probably part of the old model as well, although we happen to be based in this building, and it is quite convenient to either go upstairs or downstairs to talk to msnbc or fox news or cspan, but i think as we move forward, everything is driven over the internet and social media, and you can do that anywhere. We would still like to have an impact on what they do in the capital, and sometimes showing up matters, but we really think that our constituents, our support is what drives public policy. Host victor tweets if conservative means my way or the highway, than it is the highway for conservatives because the country is not theirs alone. Guest i do not think that is what conservative means at all. I think the bottomline is that washington has gotten so out of control that a little bit of disruption, a little bit of challenging the status quo shaking things up a little but its probably a good thing to do. We would argue that going into bailoutwall street there is been a lot of bipartisan collusion. Nobody had actually stood in front of the train is thaand sad you know what, we cannot do this anymore. If that is why conservative means, willing to stand on principle when no one else represents real problems, that makes a lot of sense. Host paul, indiana on our republican line. You are on with matt kibbe of freedomworks. Guest kind of a personal question, if matt kibbe voted for mitt romney or not. I voted the district of columbia, and i voted for ron paul because i did not have the ability to impact the outcome of the election. If i had lived in virginia, i would have voted for mitt romney without a second thought. Host barbara in lewisville, texas will sto. Hi, barbara. Caller im here in dallas where they had the republican platform, and the first one on your was repeal the 17th amendment to the constitution so legislature selects u. S. Senators. I want to get his opinion on cents tedhe think cruz is the darling of the tea party. Thank you for taking my call. Guest i think there is an about theg debate 17th amendment. There was a time when senators were selected by state legislatures, and the babel would argue that moving to direct election of senators has somehow undermined the peoples voice in washington. Im not sure that is true anymore. I was never completely convinced by that argument. Particularly today, and i would point to mississippi as an example of that, i think grassroots have very much a voice in this process and the ability to hold even entrenched governors, and our and state legislators going to solve a problem yo . It is not clear. Meetingate legislators in indianapolis, what you think about that . There is a big push for an article five constitutional convention, and the idea would be to fix some of the corruptions we have seen in the constitutional limits on big government. Bulletsptical of silver and constitutional amendments and conventions and a Perfect Piece of legislation, and my answer to everybody is if you want to fix washington, build a community. If you want to pass a bill, build a community. If you want to fix the constitution, you want to repeal the amendment that allowed for the income tax, you had better build a community because if you open up that can of worms at a convention and you do not have the kind of organization and Public Opinion behind you, things could go wrong. Kibbe is at graduate of george Mason University. He has a new book out hostile takeover resisting centralized governments stranglehold on america. That will be featured on program infterwords the coming weeks. Speaker boehner, i want to get your reaction to this. [video clip] a true cantor has been friend, and i want to thank him and think his staff for his service to our conference and thank them for the service to our country as well. There is no one around here who puts more thought into advancing our principles and the solutions for the American People. I look forward to him continuing to lead our efforts here over the summer. As for the future, let me share a little bit with you what i told the members yesterday. This is a time for unity. This is a time to focus on what we all know is true. The president s policies have told the American People. His administration cannot get ,ur economy back to real growth and he continues to endanger our troops and citizens with his failed foreign policies. At this point, the administration cannot even provide basic services to our veterans. We need to elect a congress that only have the will to stop the president but the power to do so as well. Everyday we are showing the American People that we have got better solutions. Today, we will act on to more jobs bills that help Small Businesses invest and grow. Fortunately, Senate Democrats continue to sit on their hands and failing to act on the dozens of jobs bills that are sitting over in the senate. Guess what . So long as the American People continue to ask the question where are the jobs . We will continue to be focused on this one issue. Kibbe. Att thet well, i think challenge for boehner and the republicans is to prove that they have a better set of ideas i am not sure they have done that yet, obviously. To keep doing what they have in doing may not be exactly the right solution. There is this internal fight between the strategists of the gop. Strategists,an establishment strategists, believe the best thing to do is to not run on issues. Do not say much about health care. Do not say much about the budget. Times thestory, the republicans have one, is very contrary to that. And i do not know what that is. That is risk aversion inside the beltway. You saw that in mitt romneys campaign. You see that in leadership, versus bold ideas that really change the conversation. 2010, almost every republican the contracted from america, crowd sourced from the grassroots. The need to run on policy. I get the where are the jobs thing. Issue. Nomy is a big obamacare is a big issue. Civil liberties will be a big issue. But they need to set out a platform they are willing to defend. Host who is the leader of the Republican Party today . Guest the answer should be Mitch Mcconnell and john mainer. But i think the ideas wing, 20102012,lass of and i would suggest some numbers , are the 2014 election ones working to fix obamacare. Let us say the rand pauls and d cruzes and michael e a lot of the world of leadership is coming from the bottom up. From texas. Ller is good morning. You are on the washington journal. I have a quick question. What does the constitution tell us . And forthrd back about going into other nations and doing what they are doing today. , who considers themselves to be conservative . We went into iraq. Why didnt we track the money that was taken out of iraq . Money,y tracked that where would we be today . Host we talked about iraq in our previous segment. Any thoughts you would like to share . Guest i think the constitution is clear on this and James Madison was adamant about this in the drafting process. Congresss authority to declare war. And we just had this fight when the president announced he would unilaterally go into syria, bomb grassrootsit was a uprising that insisted he go to congress instead. That is historical. It has not really happened. , particularlys the Obama Administration and Bush Administration, trampled that limit. I think if we did that, we would be a little more circumspect about where we would go to war and what the rules of engagement would be. A tweet how much did freedomworks donate to virginia seven . Zero. We do not give directly to candidates, so that was never an option. If i had two things i do not have, for frick foresight and unlimited resources, we would have been there. I would argue it is particularly awesome this did not happen with freedomworks support. Our job is not to get involved in every race and change outcomes. Our job is to support a community so they can do it. Our strength is in decentralization. We are like to see that involved less and less and the activists take the future. Host the caller is on our republican line. Caller i can assure you goofballs, three goofball operations in veterans hospital. They could have a clean bill of health. I am trying since september of last year to get a pair of shoes that works on my feet. I got braces on both legs. Washington is a veterans party, somebody who knows how to get jobs done and straighten out these hospitals. Host matt . Guest i would love for you to join freedomworks, because you said it better than i did. Somebody needs to come to washington and kick butt. Wasnteran scandal outrage. That we do not provide health care to the men and women who served this country so heroically is an affront to everything we are supposed to be about. That said, i wonder why we have healthize, singlepayer care system for veterans. It does not work that well. It proves that people wait in line. Care is rationed. People die. I would rather get every veteran into the same health care that is available to the rest of us, and we should pick up the debt for that. Tim is calling from damascus, virginia, on our democrats line. A couple moments left with our guest. Caller thank you so much for cspan. Everybody is part of this politics thing. We are not getting anything done. I think we need term limits on these congressmen. We need to take the big money out of politics and put it back into normal peoples hands. 90 of this country is middleclass at the best. The rest of the people is rich. We need term limits, and politicians today are working for money. I love my country. I would like to see it go back to the people who really care about our country. I hope the democrats will take it all. I hope we can take both houses. We have a democratic president. I do not want to see a standstill for two more years and not get nothing done. If we can do that and put the hands back into the poor people and the middle class people of this country, we can run our country and get something done. And you for taking my call. Thank you for taking my call. Guest i love permits, term limits come a especially the way they were imposed in virginia a couple days ago. He spent so much money. We favor some companies at the expense of others. We choose winners and losers in our economic system. As long as washington is so big and so interested, it is going to attract all the wrong types of interests into the political process. Look at it in mississippi. All that money comes from d. C. Lobbyists, and they have been explicit about it. This has been about getting special favors, about seniority. They are investing a lot of money in that. Take away the ability to choose winners and losers, to rearrange have spending is appropriated, and you will take away the big money in politics. What do you think about the fact that you have to compromise when you have divided government, like we currently do . Think you do have to compromise, but compromise is not splitting the difference on somebodys bad ideas. It would be harry reid saying, this is my plan, public and saying, this is my plan, and sitting at the table and fighting it out. Art of it is going to the American People and asking them to weigh in on that debate. You cannot do that unless you have two sets of ideas at the table. Miami, independent. Good morning. Caller i believe the Sleeping Giant has just been awoke. I do believe that all you have to do is look at what is going on in europe, with the eurosceptics. People in europe are getting frustrated. I believe the people in this country are fed up with this immigration invasion. I honestly believe that if we do not stop what is happening in this country, we will become a third world. We have to stop what is happening in the United States of america. We have to enforce laws already on the books. I believe if we do not, we have a big problem ahead of us. The Sleeping Giant has just been awoke. I believe you are going to see a major change in this country in 2014 in november. I do not care if you are democrat, republican, or independent. People are going to say it enough is enough with immigration. Look what we did in arizona to jan brewer. They are illegally shipping people into this state. When is this man who is supposed to be president of the United States going to enforce the laws on the books . Agree with you that something is happening in america, and i think it is a healthy thing. It makes me strangely optimistic about the future of this country. I would argue that america is a leader in the world, and if we do not defend freedom here, it is going to have a hard time driving anywhere else. Part of it is frustration with the insider attitude and collusion of interests that have run this country in the wrong direction. The other part of it is the liberation of people. You have better information from multiple sources. You have the ability to connect with other people who think us like you and want to get involved in the process. I know moms that have bigger facebook pages than county gops. That is one factor explaining eric cantors loss. The other is arrogance and his dominance by insiders. But people have to step up. People have to get involved. This country was designed specifically, and George Washington was quite clear about this. He said that it evil dont show up, but people dont defend that sacred fire of liberty, it goes away. Host is money equivalent to speech . I think she is going for the corporations are people. Believe thaten to people should be allowed to invest in politics, and we need more political speech, not less. The fact of the matter is, any investment init politics is typically pushed by incumbents, who have all of the advantages in the process. I do think in the future, and we proved this the activists proved this last tuesday that ey i think cam for theor spent 5 million answer is to engage more political speech, engage more people in the process. Even social media costs money. We have four point 5 Million People on our facebook page. Billing that community was not cheap. Engaging the community, at the margin, is near zero. I think that is the future. It used to cost millions of dollars to mail people or run tv ads. It is not freedomworks anymore. Moms can do this. Citizens can do this. That is the future. Tot laura says, i give it brat. Barbara, in austin, texas, you are the last call for matt kibbe. Have a really important question and then a secondary question, and i would like a direct, clear answer to this first question. Why doesnt the tea party operate as a third party, not just writing on the coattails of the Republican Party . And then there is my other question. Host quickly. Ofler i have heard a lot talk about fixing or replacing obamacare. As i see it, this combination party, republicans and tea party, only reacts to things. They never make original proposals. So i wonder why they never proposed any Health Care Plan until the Affordable Care act was passed, and they reacted to it. Host thank you. Separate party for the tea party . A fan i have never been of third parties for the simple reason they do not work. I think the Libertarian Party has proved that. That said, if the gop does not reform itself, it runs the risk of going the way of the whigs. I suspect it is not going to be about a thirdparty challenge, but about a repopulation of the gop hugeey do not accept this movement of libertarians and fiscal conservatives that are newly empowered by the internet, they are going to miss the opportunity to be one of those two parties. The second question was host that was about why republicans and tea party do not create their own legislation, just react. Guest i will plug a specific project we are working on right now, called prescription for america. We are asking citizens to weigh in on what they think the solutions to obamacare are. We did this in 2010 with the contract from america. We worked with the folks that pushed that. We think the future is all about crowd sourcing ideas from the bottom up, because we are not getting it from our leadership, they respond to incentives. If we create a constituency for a good idea, you will have politicians of all stripes glomming onto it. Kibbe, president and ceo of freedomworks. Thank you for being on the washington journal. It more segment to go, and is the cover story of the issue. C, their monthly it is the case for reparations. We will be right back. For over 35 years, cspan brings Public Affairs events directly to you, but he knew in the room with white house events, briefings, and conferences, and offering complete gaveltogavel coverage of the u. S. House. We are cspan. Watch us in hd, like us on facebook, and follow us on twitter. When i started covering congress, you had people like senator russell long, wilbur rostenkowski, howard vapor, people who were giants in their own way. A couple of those guys got themselves into trouble. But overall, these were people who knew how they were all very intelligent. They knew how to craft legislation, they knew how to do a deal, and they worked with whoever the president was. There was politics, but at the end of the day, they usually found a way to come together and make decisions for the good of the country. You do not see that anymore. I think the quality of members of congress, in terms of their intelligence and work ethic, has diminished. A are still great people and i should not malign there are wonderful members on both sides. I think increasingly people are driven by the politics and , andeir own cell survival the hardest work they do is raising money. It is not learning the issues. It is not crafting deals. It is making speeches and positioning themselves to get reelected. Is livingr lisa myers washington behind. Find out why on sunday night. Washington journal continues. Of thenehisi coates atlantic. How do you define reparations . Guest america coming to account with its own history, the bad part and the good part. Host what does that mean . Guest in the case of africanamericans, it means accepting the relationship between American Government, american society, and africanamericans has for most of our history not been a positive one. The fact that we decided about 50 years ago that we would have some politics in which we would stop doing some of the negative things we had been doing does not make the consequences of the past go away. They have to be directly addressed. Host you mean money. Guest i do, among other things. I do not mean literally mailing a check right now. That would not suffice. I do not mean hush money. So weot mean money given never have to talk about this again. Money is part of the process. Reparations, by which i mean the full acceptance of our collective biography and its consequences, is the price we must pay to see ourselves squarely. Guest that is exactly it. Money is part of that. One of the things we try to theblish in the piece is way people traditionally think about the Africanamerican Community relationship with the state is one in which we have segregation. We have collared only signs, colored only water fountains. We have the lunch table and black people sit over here. It is not simple. It is not wealth being extracted out of one community to benefit the other community. Of america. History in youru indicated piece, about 16,000 words in this cover story, if you want to you it at atlantic. Com have also indicated that federal policy has been discriminatory. I want to read a couple of examples. Division,cs of racial the record is mixed. Guest whenever you have a conversation about reparations, people say we are just talking about something that we can end right there. The 20th century, you can still trace a line of policies to disadvantage africanamericans. That includes some of the folks who set the most progressive policy, the new deal, which was passed on the backs of white supremacy. It would not have been possible without white supremacy. Social security was written in such a way that 65 of africanamericans who would have been eligible, 80 in the south, were not eligible. Welfare, what we call 10 of tanf, was written in much the same way. The g. I. Bill, the housing , were designed in the same way, to exclude africanamericans. The mechanisms by which American Families built wealth in this country have excluded the black community. Africanamerican community and see social and economic indicators. It is not a mystery at all. It is explainable. Host the new jim crow, you ande, quoting a history Political Science professor at colombia. One collaborator americas democracy could not do without. Guest that is exactly right. People believed democracy was in doubt, the onset of world war ii. We see fascism rising in europe. His book is called fear itself. There is great fear in this country. It passed policies to deal with this new era. Of this country, the highest priority was white supremacy. North you in the this piece focuses on chicago, so i do not make it sound like a southern problem. But the democratic south, the solid south as they call it at the time its highest priority was white supremacy. They were not going to pass any social legislation that compromised that. Host we will get to chicago in a moment. I want to get these other facts, writings, on the table first. He said this quickly. I want to read it straight from your piece. The omnibus programs passed under the Social Security act in 1930 were crafted in such a way as to protect the southern way of life. Oldage insurance and Unemployment Insurance excluded far more farmworkers and domestics, jobs heavily occupied by blacks. Roosevelt signed Social Security into law, 1930 5, 65 of africanamericans 70 80 ly, and between in the south were ineligible. Protested, calling the new American Safety net a sieve with holes just big enough for africanamericans to fall through. With oming to terms that is what i am talking about. Proud of Social Security, of the g. I. Bill. The flipside of that is to come to terms with the fact that some cution of our populations out. What are the consequences . It is not like africanamericans were emancipated in 1865 and the countryside, welcome. You are free to enjoy the same rights as everybody else. One of the big things we talk about is housing policy, redlining. Outlawed until 1968. Living africanamericans went through this process. Host who is clyde ross . I91yearold man living on the west side of chicago. I hope he is watching today. He might well be. Mr. Clyde ross was born in mississippi in the 1920s, when mississippi was majority africanamerican. But the majority of People Living in message in mississippi could not vote, had no political power, his family being among them. His family had some means, some land. They had horses. They had mules. They had cows. A chicken. All of which was taken from them on a false tax bill. They were reduced to sharecroppers. He spent his childhood in mississippi. His childhood there was people taking things from him and giving them to other people. Separate but equal, when you see schools, a black and White University system, remember that africanamericans in a state like mississippi were taxed, asked to pledge fealty to the law, to build facilities they could not attend. I am being asked for schools i cannotgo to, pools i visit, libraries i cannot borrow books out of. This is the systemic thunder that mr. Ross into her for the first 18 or so years of his life. The senator in mississippi at the time, whose name i am forgetting Theodore Bilbo i remember. I am going to use the word he used. To keep the knee grow away from the voting booth, do it the night before. Negro away from the voting booth, do it the night before. Ross fought in world war ii, decided he could not return to mississippi, went to chicago, was able to get a job. Did not have to deal with jim crow customs anymore. When he went to buy a house, he was cut out by the greatest wealth opportunity in American History, Home Ownership. Africanamericans around the country were cut out of that process. Buying on contract was a particularly onerous rent to own scheme. You have all the disadvantages of Home Ownership and all the disadvantages of renting. You owe somebody presumably a mortgage payment, but not really. You do not build equity. Should you miss one payment, you are kicked out of the home and they keep all the money. Mr. Ross somehow managed to hold onto his house. But there are swathes, literally thousands of people, who bought their homes in that way in chicago. It is estimated that 85 of africanamericans in chicago during this period both their home through a contract. Host this was guest 1950s. , 1950s. It is made possible by a policy of the United States which did not believe africanamericans to be responsible homeowners. Host like the home owners loan corporation, the federal Housing Administration insisted on trict the quotas restrictive quotas. The 1940s, chicago led the nation in the use of these restrictive covenants. Neighborhoods were effectively offlimits to blacks. What is the neighborhood of North Lawndale . Now, it is one of the poorest neighborhoods in the city of chicago. 95 africanamerican. It was not when mr. Clive ross and the people we profiled moved there, but quickly became that way. There was a tendency to look at the way people move throughout society, the way people relocate, and to think people are merely expressing their own preference. The policy like redlining, which meant that when africanamericans move to your block, you were no longer eligible for fhabacked loans everything got harder. Was government policy, bank policy at the time. It was toward the people moving white flight is a direct result of social planning. It is not an autonomous process by which white people looks down the block and said, i would rather be around my own. There might be some of that, some level of prejudice. What you had policies that basically buttressed prejudice, that made it very inconvenient if you were a white person and wanted to live in an integrated neighborhood. You had activists who were trying to create an integrated living environment. Country, of of this the state of illinois, of chicago mitigated against that, and we have North Lawndale. Host speculators in the 1950s and 1960s knew there was money to be made off white panic. Guest again, this is private enterprise. Some of the lowest private enterprise you can imagine. Met clyde ross, the first thing he said i said, why did you leave mississippi . He said, i was seeking the protection of the law. I did not understand what he meant. He said, we had no black attorneys, no black police. We were outside of the law. That is a theme you see even has he moves as he moves up to chicago. If you have a set of policies and exempt black people we are not talking about the criminal justice system, the educational system. Just on housing. Say, this is for everybody else, but not for this group over here. The predators are outside of the protection of the law. How would that happen . Ist Tanehisi Coates National Correspondent for the atlantic. He has the cover story this month. It is about reparations. There is the cover. Charts of chicago as well, showing some of the redlining. We would like to get your views on what we have been reading so far. With reparations, you are either for it or against it. Let us go a little deeper and a little further out. How long did you spend on this story . The issueu feel about of reparations prior to your research . In 2010, i made a blog post saying i was not in favor of corporations, and i was at the time. In debates with other writers around issues, relating to some of the problems we had in the Africanamerican Community, is that there was something that was not being talked about. Issue, for instance, about what schools africanamericans go to, and why they go to those schools. I think beneath that is where africanamericans lived. An issue like gentrification. Obviously beneath that is how much money africanamericans have to remain in neighborhoods they want to remain in. Why do African Americans live in certain places and why do white people live in other places . I are africanamericans the most segregated minority in the country . Why is the wealth gap funnyone . What happened here . It is hard to avoid the fact you mentioned the restrictive covenants. People have deeds in this state and other places they can show you, and it says, this should not be given to jews, negroes, or other undesirable minorities. Our policies have been very explicit, up into the 1960s, about how we were going to regard africanamericans, what policies they were going to benefit from. If the state has effectively said, we are endorsing africanamericans, punishing africanamerican success the idea that it would be any me asent began to strike absurd. What should we do . Conclude, as i have, that ,he policy has been to strict you have to believe that some of that wealth should be returned. Wells fargo bank, in 2009, half the programs in baltimore whose owners have been granted loans between 2005 and 2008 were vacant. 71 were in predominantly black neighborhoods. It is really depressing to talk about this. Notls fargo case is right now, but in the past few years if you go and you read reporting,ts and the there is nothing particularly hard to see about what wells fargo is doing. It is very clear as to how they regarded the people who they were offering these loans to. Wells fargo realized that the Africanamerican Community was a community in which people had traditionally, in the history of this country, then cut out of wealth building opportunities, and was desperate to build some well. They went with africanamerican churches, public figures. They went to black people and told them, here is your opportunity. What they gave them was subprime loans. It is very important to make here. We have looked at africanamericans. We have compared them for credit. Everything you might think that would explain this, besides africanamericans still got worse loans. It is the fact that these people are segregated and are sitting in this one particular area it makes explication very, very efficient. A barrel. Ing ducks in they are all right here, in this contains space. You do not have to look for earmarks. They are right there, because of american policy. You keep saying we wrote the story, but your name is the only one on there. Guest this was a twoyear process, and i think my great editor, how much we went back and forth if you want to put a case for reparations on the cover, there is going to be a lot of back and forth. Checkers. Out my fact what they did to make sure that making was correct sure every sentence made sense. A teaml like it is effort. I did write it. We have the maps. As a full package i am sorry for everybody i did not mention from the atlantic. That is why i keep saying we. Host is there a book out of this . Guest i hope so. Host republican line, you are on with Tanehisi Coates of the atlantic. Caller i did read your entire article. We have a subscription. I discussed it with my husband. A very basic, basic question for you. Oft is your interpretation collective guilt . To be able to have reparations, you are going to have to convince a majority of the white population that they have collective guilt. What is your definition of that . Catholic, but i do not feel i have collective guilt for persecution of the jews in the early church. Nor the spanish inquisition. German, but i do not carry collective guilt for hitler and his atrocities. White and i am a child of the 1960s that came of age in and i have always felt like there was progress, idea thaturt by the all white people in america have collective guilt for what happened to africanamericans. It hurts me to my core. I love people. I treat everybody with love. And that is what i have to say. On the case for reparations, yes or no . Caller it depends. First of all, you have to convince me i personally have collective guilt. And then there is going to have to be a structure similar to office, aurity, or an National Office of reparations, where people would have to go to state their case, how they have been harmed by white people. And i think it is going to be awfully, awfully hard to implement. Host mr. Coates . Guest you obviously did have the article and even have some plans. You went further than i did. I appreciate that. I would like to shift the frame away from collective guilt to collective responsibility, which is more important. I try to make this case. We recognize ourselves as americans, as part of a larger state, art of a larger society. We understand the state outlives us, that it does think that we do and youy did not are responsible for. I was obviously not alive when world war i was fought. But i was one of those who pay pensions for the veterans who served in world war i. I was not alive at the time of the american revolution, but i celebrate on july 4, like everybody else does. A state,are part of you assume responsibility for what the state does, and that outlives you. We have these conversations about the national debt. We have these conversations about climate change. We have any sort of conversation about what the future of america is going to be. We invoke our children, grandchildren, the world beyond us. Somewhere within that is the notion that when you are part of a state, part of a nation, part of a society, that it is broader than you. A state in which you are only responsible for that which you actions you do, the individually take, is a failed state. It cannot be possible. The state would have to regenerate itself virtually every generation. We have dealt with reparations cases in the past. The state of North Carolina is paying reparations to African Americans because, for many years, the state of North Carolina had its hospitals sterilize African American women coming in to have babies or routine procedures. The state is paying out right now. That means every citizen in sterilizedina africanamericans . Of course it does not. Did every North Carolina and think it was a good idea . Of course not. It has state realizes responsibility. In the 1980s, when we made a decision to give reparations to japaneseamericans who were interned during world war ii is that mean that every person who was alive thought it was a good idea to in turn japaneseamericans during world war ii . Some of us were not even alive. What we recognize the idea that those were done in our name. We are american. Patriotism means something beyond our self. It means we are responsible for things, both good and bad, that we do not personally do. When you have a policy that was done, a policy that was executed , in our names as americans, there is responsibility for that. Stand up and to talk about how great the g. I. Bill every president lise to talk about how proud he is of the g. I. Bill. If you want to talk about what was good about american policies, the beacon of democracy, all the great things we have done in our history, it is only fair that we talked about the responsibility we have for those things. You do not get to just open up your paycheck and not open your bills. You have to deal with both. That, to me, is an elevated form of patriotism. Host i am going to read a series of tweets. Normally i would not ask you to respond to all of these, but it is all along the same thing. I think youll get the idea. Guest what can you do about that . If people want to read the article, i will have a discussion with them about the article. People who want to remain in their own ignorance, there is not much that can be done. I am obviously very enthusiastic about having a conversation about people who take the issue seriously and stop you do not have to ultimately agree with me, but there is not too much i can do about that. Host where did you grow up . Guest baltimore, maryland. Host college . Guest i dropped out. I was never a good student. Host when did you become National Correspondent for the atlantic . But i have recently, worked for the atlantic six years now. Host graduated from howard . Started left howard and writing. I have been writing since i was 20 years old. Almost 19 years now. Riding for a while. I have been writing before that, from when i was about six years old. My mom had me right essays when i did anything wrong. It has been a consistent thing through my life will stop i started writing when i was in college, and i loved it. I could not believe somebody questions,ou to ask to report, to go out to a city and ask questions of poor people that you were uniquely curious about, and then write it up. I have been doing it ever since. I am going to read more from the case for reparations. Guest that is a very, very important when you write this, you have to deaden yourself emotionally. It has an effect. It makes you feel a certain way. That is a very important paragraph. You see a colored man of means, upwardly mobile, being equated with criminals. That was the policy of the trade groups in this country. That is what it was. During that time we had the greatest wealth building opportunities in our history, that was our attitude. We have some responsibility for that. Host you talked about similar suits pushed against corporations such as aetna, which insured slaves, and lehman brothers, which was a founding whose cofounding partner owned them. Host the Ivy League Schools in the north, many of them, and how much, or wealth is built off slavery. Brown university did a magnificent report some years ago on the brown brothers. One of the great educational institutions in this world. How much of their wealth and how much is built off of slavery and off of slave trading . You cannot get away from this. Get out ofgoing to this. It is one of the great forces in american life. Not arguably, i would say definitely, and you cannot isgine modern america as it without thinking about slavery and all the things that came out of it. Thanks for holding. Caller good morning and thank. Ou, mr. Coates i grew up in the jim crow south. I was pretty young then. I do not know how to explain this, because i saw it for what it was as a young boy. Guilt you white are talking about justice. This is so important to me. Robinson, when he was on, i wanted to thank him too. Jim crow is so incredibly disgusting that a little child could see it. It is amazing to me that we have not done anything about this. You can here i am breaking up a little bit, because i saw this in reality. And it is really disgusting. Whatf we i dont know we can do, because it is very difficult. But i know what i would do. And everybody would be really mad. Toould give Free Education every African American person in this country, and i would make sure it was a good education. And i would help them in every way i could think of. Breaking up too much. Thank you. You do not really go into the house. The how. Guest one of the reasons why i did that you are talking about 250 years of enslavement in this country. African americans were slaves in the colonies and in this country longer than africanamericans have been free in this country. You are talking about 250 years labour, of theft. After that, you are talking about the greatest wave of domestic terrorism we have ever seen in this country, directed that africanamericans. You are talking about the blazek a sick pondering of the right to vote in the broad swath of this country. You are talking about nonenforcement of constitutional amendments, the plunder of tax dollars to put up institutions africanamericans were excluded from. You are talking about property, body. One of the most heartbreaking stories this comes toward the end. When mr. Ross talks about his brother, winter ross, who had an , was taken toure parchment. It was effectively slavery in the 20th century. It is a mississippi prison. Esther ross and his family heard that his brother was there. They went to get him and were told he was dead. You were shocked to hear this. They asked for his body and they said, what do you want his body for . Body. Er saw his brothers he effectively disappeared off the streets of america. That is an individual example. We have to deal with new deal legislation that it actively cut africanamericans out of all these wealth building opportunities. The shape of our cities could not be what they are without white supremacy. It is impossible to imagine. We wonder why, in a city like d. C. , where we live, why africanamericans live on one side of the park for the most part, and not on the other side. We think this is magic. It just sort of happened out of nowhere. Bill we cannot quite pay off. Nothing to make this totally right. But what can we do . What is the best way . Once we have acknowledged our history, what is the best way . America begins in black plunder and why democracy, features that are not contradictory but complementary. 1860, the majority of people in South Carolina and mississippi, and about half those in georgia, about 1 3 of also the dinners were black. The state with the largest number of enslaved americans was virginia, where in certain counties some 70 labored in chains. Their backs, the economic basis of america and much of america was erected. Next call, jim, in midland, texas. How you doing . Thanks for cspan. How you doing, mr. Coates . Guest all right. How about yourself . Caller good. Two questions. Many the first question how many generations of ple is a going to take to the like people are going to be basically racist for how long because of slavery . How many generations is it going out . Ke before that smooths is, what isestion your definition of racism . Thank you very much. Guest i will take the last one first. At a root level, because of a basic belief that something genetic about you makes you superior to somebody else, superior to somebody else. And everything that follows from that the right to subjugate people because they are inferior to you, the right to take possession of peoples bodies, property, families, because you feel superior to them. The second question is much more difficult. As a lot of people have pointed out, we have an africanamerican president. Thatmust necessarily mean we are not quite as racist as we 1968, or certainly not in 1948 or 1848. But we are making progress. I believe that reparations is part of that progress. Not see it as, over the long term, a divisive process. I think it is a process by which , in this situation, we look at each other across the room. I have a feeling someone has taken something from me, and you have a feeling that something unfair that you cannot quite name happened. Part of the reparative process. One of the examples we talk about in the piece is the example of germany paying reparations to israel. There is a strong argument that deal was as good for germany as it was for israel, and perhaps even better. Is, we all have to imagine what if germany said nothing . What if it never apologize, or ,ave some sort of pro forma never paid anything to the folks of victimized during world war ii . Is that a world that we want . Think we can look at ourselves and say, are we going to be better off or worse off for facing our history . What are we so afraid of . What are we scared of . What do we think we are going to lose by acknowledging what happened . Host the atlantic. Com is the website. If you want to read, he see piece,anehisi coates which he worked on for about two years, there it is. You can go online. 10 people contact you online . Guest twitter is the easiest way, probably. Host twitter is the easiest way . Peter in alexandria, virginia. Caller please do not cut me off. I want your guests to understand that white people are not responsible for slavery in this country. You have several different ethnic groups, people of european descent. They might fall under the category of white, that you shouldnt use white as a reason why these people are guilty of slavery. You have the english. Accuse italians. You cannot accuse germans. ,ou cannot accuse irish polish so many groups of people who fall under the white category that you cannot accuse. So i think you need to correct in your book which ethnic groups are the people who caused this problem. I really think you need to correct that. Host we have to leave it there. Guest i encourage the caller to read the article. Host what are you working on now . Are you still responding . Has there been a lot of back and forth, a lot of conversation . Isst i think if there anything healthy that has come out of this, people have viewed reparations for a long time as a radical idea that they do not need to take seriously. Been radicals who advocated for it, in my view correctly. What i think the basic argument is not radical at all. Host thank you. Weing up in just a minute, are going to take you over to the center for strategic and international studies. You can see that they are starting to get ready. Customs and of the Border Protection unit is going to talk about his first 100 days in office, talk about some of the reforms he has instituted. 0,000 employees 12. 4 billion dollar budget. If you have not heard already, we will be covering Hillary Clinton live tonight, 6 00 pm she is here in washington, speaking with the cofounder the coowner of politics and prose, who