Transcripts For CSPAN Washington Journal 20130110

See in Immigration Law. Here are the numbers to call. Democrats, 2025853880. Republicans, 2025853881. And independent callers, 2025853882. We also have a live set up for Illegal Immigrants. They can call us at 2025853883. Were also online. You can join the conversation on social media. Accepted us a tweet by writing, cspanwj. Or chime in on facebook. Look for cspan to weigh in there. We also take emails, journal cspan. Org. Interceptions of immigrants stubborning low, Border Security efforts have a long way to go. It says host from the New York Times, we also see a piece this week looking at a new study on enforcement and the money spent enforcing Immigration Laws. It says a new report sets the stage for a debate on immigration overhaul, huge amounts of money spent on immigration. Joining us this morning to get our conversation started is off and on johnson of national journal. Shes a washington, d. C. , correspondent who covers immigration among a variety of other topics. Thanks for being here. Guest pleasure. Host are there prospects for Immigration Reform, changes to the law in 2013 . Guest sure. I think that this is the first breath of activity that weve seen in about six years. The president has named it as his top priority, and he has not backed away from that, despite the fact that some of the fiscal cliff problems that we saw at the end of last year still havent been resolved. And all indications that i have from anybody who knows about it is that the talks are going forward. Now, whether or not anything is actually going to happen in the end is still something that remains to be seen. Its as tough as it was in 2006, 2007, when we last debated this. Host you mentioned the words fiscal cliff. We saw the debate over budget issues unfold around the new year. Its not over yet. Is that conversation done . At what point can the white house and Congress Move on to Something Else . Guest well, im guessing and this is just me observing the conversation probably isnt going to be done until the next election or until Something Else changes. This is something that clearly, particularly republicans in the house really want to push. Theyre going to use every opportunity that they can. We managed to get some of the tax issues taken off the table at the end of last year. That was difficult for a lot of us to watch. But theres still some questions about spending. Thats going to come up in the next couple of months. Theres appropriations to be done. I imagine that conversation will keep on going. And i was very worried after i first came back to work after the break, because i said, well, what is this going to do for the immigration agenda . Having covered this in the past, i know how much energy it takes from members. But i dont think that the members who are going to be the most involved in the fiscal cliff spending kinds of discussions are the same ones who are going to be pushing on immigration. And as long as you have someone in the senate, like majority leader harry reid, who also wants to move forward, i think youre still going to see some action. Host lets hear what president obama had to say. This is when he was on meet the press right before the new year, him talking to david gregory. Im asking about time frame, as you well know, your secondterm president , even having one reelection, your capital is limited. What is your single priority of the second term . What is the equivalent to healthcare . Well, there are a couple of things that we need to get done. Ive said that fixing our broken i will great system is a top priority our broken immigration system is a top priority. I will introduce legislation to get that done. Weve talked about it long enough. We know how we can fix it. We can do it in a comprehensive way that the American People support. Thats something we should get done. Host president obama on nbc december 30. How much of that, off and on fawn johnson, do you hear as a response to the election . Guest well, its largely a response to the election, but keep in mind that the president made this particular priority before the election, which its hard to say exactly what drove that. But one of the things that has been very clear throughout his first term is that the latinos who helped him get elected in 2008 were very upset that not very much happened over the course of obamas first term. He was very focused on healthcare. And i think the president genuinely wants to deal with this issue. Everybody who has been involved in it knows how difficult it is. He just wasnt able to put the energy into it he did in the last term. Once the election happened, it became clear to republicans that they couldnt just say no like they had been doing over the last four, five years, because the hispanic population only voted for obama. That kind of sets up a much more friendly environment to talk about the issues. Host fawn johnson, correspondent with national journal, were focusing the washington journal this morning on issues surrounding immigration. Later on, well talk to some reporters as well as folks on both sides of the issue right here on n washington, d. C. Our first phone call is from ryan in texas on our democrats line. Hi, ryan. Caller yes, how you doing . Host good. Caller i would like to say, theyre not going to enforce the Immigration Laws. Some of the people that i know out with these charges, that theyre not going to follow immigration rules, just some of these guys that got these crack charges and trying to get back to their families. Host youre talking about drug charges . Ok. Lets go to trevor in arlington, virginia, on our independent line. Hi, trevor. Caller hello. How you doing . Host good morning. Caller basically the premise of my question is, you know, everybody involved in deciding whats going to happen with immigration, you would think they would have to be thinking, how much more revenue can we get if we do legalize the 13 million or whatever undocumented workers . I mean, that has to be an upside. And also, how its related to the war on drugs, you know, affecting where they come from and how violent it is, and really pushing them north. It really is all interrelated, and mainly, i would say you would have to think theres an upside to gaining the extra revenue. Thats it. Host thanks for your call. Fawn johnson . Guest i agree. Thats an interesting point, especially when were talking about spending. I havent seen the full debate yet about the costs versus the advantages or the fiscal advantages of having more legal immigrants inside the country. Keep in mind that a lot of them are already here, and whatever they wind up doing is probably not going to increase the flow of immigration that much. Since 2008, the recession, theres not been as many people wanting to come here just because there arent as many jobs. It is true, however, that if you are able to come up with some sort of legal status for all of the people who are undocumented, that you would get a greater tax revenue. Most of the proposals i think obama would also endorse, would not make them eligible for the kind of benefits that are very costly for things like healthcare and medicaid and stuff like that. They would be in the schools that i believe they railroad will, so i dont think thats a huge change. I think youre going to have people who are going to talk a lot more about that. Host here are some numbers that the Cato Institute developed, how overhauling Immigration Law might alter the economy. We see the cost of mass deportation. They estimate that to be 2. 6 trillion. Temporary worker program, they see it as a benefit to the u. S. Economy of nearly 800 billion. And then comprehensive revisions to Immigration Law, 1. 5 trillion. They say that would entail giving unauthorized immigrants a pathway to permanent legal status and citizenship, also open the boreder to new immigrants who would have full labor rights so. One snapshot of that financial picture. Wells up next, joining us from florida on our democrats line. What part of florida are you from . Turn down your tv for us and go ahead. Caller ok. Yes, first of all, good morning, everybody. Were all immigrants. We come from other countries. And we all have to learn to get along, you know . So i say lets go here and lets get this reform, a situation, then go on the table , and lets get it worked out from and get these jobs back so we can get all our jobs in this country, a great country. Host william, what would reform mean to you . What would immigration, your version of Immigration Reform, look like . Caller what it would mean to me . Host what would you do . What would you change . Caller not be not be like like putting fences up and all these deportation and stuff. Everybody come to the country because it is a great country. And my view of it is what it has been since 1960. You know, come to america, something thats great. It should be that same way. We should all feel that same way. If they dont go to other countries to be sold back, we should have our business here for everybody to come, give their part, and share in making it a better country. Host ok. William is a democratic caller. Lets listen to what House Speaker john boehner had to see. This is after the election, Speaker Boehner speaking from the capitol. I want to go back to your comments about Immigration Reform. When you said comprehensive Immigration Reform, are you endorsing a pathway to citizenship . Well, im not talking about 3,000. What im talking about is a commonsense, stepbystep approach to secure our borders, allow us to enforce the laws, and fix a broken immigration system. But again, on an issue this big, the president has to lead. I think members on both sides of the aisle want to resolve this issue. The president s going to have to lead here. Are you endorsing a pathway to citizenship . Im not going get into any of the details of how you would get there. Its just time to get the job done. Host House Speaker boehner has called for comprehensive Immigration Reform changes to the law. Does it look like what the white house would want . You saw from that clip that he was really not specific about what he wanted. I have heard from his aides also that they really want the president to lead. The big question that i have is , what happens if the president leads . We have seen what the House Republicans do when the president leads. They usually just reject it out of hand. The people that i talked to who are involved in immigration in the house tend to want to do something thats a little less ambitious than what the president is talking about doing. They want to have little different parts of the law go through committee and pass the house on their own. Youve seen in the house the unwillingness to look at any legislation, and they have a hard time as we saw with the fiscal cliff getting those on the republican side. I dont think its going to look anything like what happens with the president. The other question is, nobody is expecting the house to act on this until the senate does something. The senate will probably do something thats much broader and will encompass all aspects of immigration. Host here are comments coming from twitter. Joe writes, we do have to address the problem with immigration and the welfare state, but i think thats easier than securing the borders. With another perspective, fred says, no reform until the border is secure. Secure the border before passing any more laws, please. Guest yeah. Those are actually probably the best perspectives that you can have on this debate. One of the things that i found interesting is that the question about Border Security is starting to get a little more sophisticated than it was back several years ago when this was first being debated. The administration has put tons of resources into enforcement to the extent that a lot of advocates, particularly civil rights advocates, are actually very angry about it. Its never going to be perfect. I think that thats the place where the last comment that you read comes forward. We still have people who do constantly believe that a lot of them are criminals, drugging drugs or people. Nobody wants that. So the question is, how much more needs to happen on the border and inside the United States before other kinds of reforms can happen . I believe that what the administration has been trying to say for the last two years is weve done that. Look at the number of people we deported, Something Like 400,000 people, which is more than any president ever has in the last, you know, in all of history. The border is looking much better. Ive been down, ive looked at it, its looking better, but there are still problems. The question is, is it ok . Thats going to be theres going to be competing versions of that no matter what happens. Host here are some of those numbers. On u. S. Immigrant deportations, you can see the total so far during the Obama Administration, 1. 5 million. For the entirity of the Bush Administration, two terms in office, we saw about two million deportations. And then in 2012 alone, nearly more than, rather, 400,000 immigrants deported, which is a record high. Our next phone call is from mark in new jersey, republican. Hi, mark. Caller good morning. Im also a municipal chair here for the republican committee. Im also going to be running for the state republican committee. I think the idea given Immigration Reform is absurd. We look at all the construction work theres these people have devalued over the years. Who compensates them . We talk about equality and Everything Else and helping people. These Illegal Immigrants have destroyed more africanamerican communities because of the lack of jabs being taken by these people. Theyre devaluing our weages. You look at the drug problems that are across the country that these people are transporting, and then you want to give them amnesty and make them legal citizens . Theyve criminals. Theyve destroyed millions of americans. You got 40 million americans on food stamps. Another over 20 million that are underemployed or unemployed. Give me a break. I mean, its the American People. Host what do you think about tightening the law . Would you make changes to the law . Caller i think employers that hire them need to be fined, put in jail. I mean, you look at the costs to our healthcare and Everything Else, these people arent held accountable. My wife just had a baby. Obamacare wouldnt do for me, i still have to pay the cobra. Theres no help for working people. Host lets get a response from fawn johnson. Mark was talking about how hed like to see verifying and businesses held accountable. Guest hes absolutely right. This is one of the big republican points, and this is something that the previous chairman of the House Judiciary Committee who is quite conservative and also quite conservative on immigration tried to get passed in the house in the last congress, and he did not succeed. Just for the caller, everify is essential an electronic database where employers who, when they hire someone, can look to make sure that that particular person is legally in the United States. Its not a perfect system, but essential what will it does is just match their names and Social Security or whatever their tax i. D. Number is and say they are legally authorized to work. Its something that employers are a little nervous about, because the system had some glitches earlier. Its a voluntary system now. But i think that its been improved significantly, and it is something that will be part of a broader immigration conversation no matter what. The only question is, do you want to institute that first and then see what happens . There are some states that have done that. Its been a nightmare for some of them, because i think, on the flip side of what the caller was saying, there are industries, particularly the agriculture industry that really rely on immigrant labor. And if they cant get those employees because they have to make sure that theyre authorized, then their crops go unpicked, and that can be a problem also. Host fawn johnson is correspondent for national journal. Were talking about immigration. We started our show this morning by asking what you changes, if any, youd like to see in Immigration Law. Would you like to see the laws made more friendly for immigrants . Would you like to see them made tighter . You can give us a call on our usual democratic, republican, and independent lines. We also have a line set up for Illegal Immigrants, and that number is 2025853883. We have a conversation going on on facebook. Bobby says yes, the laws should be made tighter. We hear from eric who says, yes, ought yes, ban automatic citizenship. Change it for at least one parent needs to be a legal citizen for the child to be one. One says, force i. N. S. To respond within days to an application for citizenship. Most of our ancestors were citizens the day they came here, and todays applicants wait for as many as five years. Fawn johnson, our facebookers bring up a range of issues. Whats the administration doing in terms of visas and the application process for a green card or citizenship . Guest well, theyre doing what they can. There has been a backlog, and this goes back a decade or so, of people waiting in line to get their green cards, and then it takes five years after you get your green card to apply for citizenship. As i understand it, they have actually resolved the backlog issue. Theyve put a lot of money into the aadjudication process. The issues are a little more complicated because theres only so much the administration can do to make that process easier. They can put money towards the adjudications. They can help the people who are they can make the application process easier. But the organization that does this is selffunded, which means any applications have to be paid for by the people who apply. The rest of the changes that would take place that would make things work better are all part of a congressional decision. A lot of that has to do with the numbers. Theres a hard cap on the amount of green cards you can get per year. There are different categories for them. But once you hit that cap, then the rest of the applications just pile up, and theres nothing they can do about that without congress acting. Host the Washington Post says the Obama Administrations decision, the first week of january to ease visa requirements for hundreds of thousands of Illegal Immigrants represents its latest move to reshape legislation action. Host it goes on to explain this latest policy change is focused on illegal parents who have a spouse or child with citizenship. Guest its actually a pretty small change to how the system works. This is the kind of thing that Immigration Lawyers have been asking the administration to do for several years, because they say that people the more people who are undoment, but would actually be eligible to be citizens wont come forward because theyre afraid theyre going to have to legal the country and be gone for several years before they can come back. This allows the people to apply for a waiver saying it would be a hardship to be separated from my child for three years, for example. I would like to have that waiver processed in the United States. And i think that will help a lot of people. I think its a commonsense change. Its not a sweeping change. Its more of a tweak is the way i would describe it. But people really wanted them to do that. And these are the small things the administration can do by itself without the help of congress. Obviously the biggest example of that is the defered deportation or defered Action Program that the administration announced last july that allows the socalled dream act students, undocumented students who were brought here by their parents to apply for some sort of its essentially a waiver, to say you can stay in the country. Host cindy tweets in, shes dubious anything will happen in the short term. She says the next six months will be all about the money, budget, debt ceiling, tax reform. Immigration is last. Lets go to james in missouri on our independent line. Hi, james. Caller hi. Im talking from personal experience. Whenever i was working down in mississippi, this was the governor before haley barbour. I was painting on his house. He had about seven or eight Illegal Immigrants. I know they were, because he had one guy that knew how to speak english, and he had one guy that knew english and spanish both. He told those guys what to do. The next governor is saying youre doing a wonderful job and everything is working and stuff. He knew that they were illegal. So, in other words, if you got the politicians that already know theyre illegal, even let them come in their own backyard and work, i put my brush down. I could not work any more for the man, im sorry. But he knew who they were and what they were doing, and the company that they were working for, you know, it was a big company that was running this tree service and stuff. They knew what they were doing. Its corrupt and put a lot of people out of work in america. And thats what happened to a lot of people. Host thanks for sharing your perspective and story. Fawn johnson, any response to that . Guest yeah, i think the thing i was on the phone with an advocate actually for the Restaurant Industry a couple of weeks ago, and i was asking about the use of undocumented labor in kitchens and hotels and things like that. I think the caller mentions the act culture industry, the landscaping business is also heavily populated, i think we all know just from personal experience, with undocument labor. But the problem is people dont talk about that. Particularly if youre running a small business, this is what she said to me, everybody uses undocumented labor, everybody. Theyre not going say it, because if they say it to me or to you or somebody publicly, they know they know theyre going to be prosecuted, when they know the guy just next door is doing exactly the same thing. Its disturbing to people, particularly who feel like they need to have those jobs themselves. Its also not entirely clear that all those jobs are the kind of jobs that most americans would want. I think thats a legitimate debate to have. But at the same time, its one of those facts that people all know are true and they just cant figure out how to fix it. Host well go to alabama. Our last caller brought up some of the issues that theyre talking about. Were joined by Brian Johnson from the huntsville times, joining from us his state. Thanks for being with us. Give us a sense of what the alabama Immigration Law currently looks like. Caller good morning. Lets see, the essence of the law is still being kicked around by the courts. The courts have found that alabamas pretty farreaching law allows Law Enforcement to do immigration status checks during, you know, traffic stops and other Law Enforcement contact. It allowed the state to engage in some level of detention while theyre determination immigration status. But a lot of what alabama sought to do related to schoolchildren or contract enforcement or harboring or carrying your papers. All of those things have been blocked by the courts at this stage. Host and brian lawson, im looking at a New York Times story that calls the law in your state, passed in spring of 201, is the boldest test combret of the doctrine of selfdeportation, trying to make immigrants, give them incentive to leave the state, leave the country. How is it playing out . You know, its sort of a low stage right now. I think when the law passed in the spring of 2011, there really was meaningful flight from the state by folks who were either worried about being deported or income contact with Law Enforcement or were related to somebody who was. The School Provision in particular we saw in effect. School kids stopped going to school. It was for at least a period that stabilized by almost all accounts that the shakeup is still unfolding. Host tell us about legal challenges. Where are those at . Caller theres two major lawsuits, and both of those have deadlines upcoming for the state of alabama to decide what it wants to do next. I think its next week, january 15, the lawsuit that was brought by the department of justice against the state, alabama has to decide by that date if it wants to appeal injunctions to the u. S. Supreme court. A lawsuit brought by a group of 36 plaintiffs, including, you know, labor unions, civil Rights Groups, Illegal Immigrants themselves, family members of Illegal Immigrants, that lawsuit will lets see, alabama has until the end of february to decide if it wants to appeal injunctions on that case to the Supreme Court. Host whats the Business Community reaction been like in alabama . How are they feeling the laws play out . Caller you know, thats a great question, and im not sure theres one answer on it. When the exodus occurred in 2011, particularly the Agriculture Community was immediately impacted. I think those stories were widely reported. You know, crops dying on the vine. They couldnt find enough workers, that sort of thing. I think the last summer, those folks made other arrangements. There are labor recruiting services. Theres an ability to advertise to bring workers in. I think that worked better, but i dont know that farmers were especially happy that way either. Poultry is a Huge Industry in alabama, poultry production, and those folks have had mixed results i think in terms of recruiting from what weve seen. I dont want to pain too broad a brush, but i think in general the labor cost them a little more, too. At the same time, you know, the larger business interests have pushed hard to have some of the penalties that were contained in the original law scaled back. Some of thats occurred. So youre not seeing an outcry from any sector maybe other than agriculture, and thats a little muted compared to where it was a year and a half ago. Host thank you so much for joining us. Thats brian lawson, a Court Reporter at the huntsville times, talking to us from alabama. Thank you for joining us. Lets go now to our next phone call. Were talking this morning about what you think of immigration issues. Were asking you, during this hour, if you think the laws should be loosened, tightened, changed, or do you want to see them enforced in a different manner . Steve is in las vegas, democrats line. Hi, steve. Caller hi, good morning. The issue is, this could have been taken care of 30, 40, 50 years ago. Im you need to do in this country was be genuinely be sincere about resolving the issue. All they need to do is speak to the native born Mexican Americans about the issues with the illegal the mexicans americans have been staunch, completely against foreignborn, illegal mexicans coming in here, taking the jobs, completely disrespecting the nativeborn Mexican Americans. Never in any issue have they mentioned the Mexican Americans to cspan or fox or cnn. Nobody talks about the Mexican Americans about how they feel about the foreignborn, illegal mexicans that are coming here disrespecting the employers in this country, go off the carpet for the foreignborn mexicans, and its completely disrespect to Mexican Americans. Host steve, are you a Mexican American . Caller yes, i am. Im 5 years old. Host thanks for your call. Lets look at some stats that we saw surface from national journal, fawn johnsons publication. During the election we saw that latino voter felt that Immigration Reform was the second Biggest Issue to them. 60 know someone undocumented. 90 had parents or grandparents who were immigrants. Guest im very interested in hearing that caller, because honestly this is the first time that i have heard that from anybody of any latino heritage at all. Almost everybody that i meet who are citizens, and there are a lot of them that have some Mexican American background, are very much in favor of doing something very broad on immigration. And i think ive heard a lot of them say that they know somebody whos undoment or could be helped by this. I mean, im interested to hear that perspective from other people, because i think of anything ive heard from the community of latinos, and i have to use more latinos more broadly, but i think a lot of them are Mexican Americans, some of them are more frustrated that because of the immigration issue has dominated their own community so much is that they all tend to lean more democratic, and i think a lot of them would actually become they would vote more republican and they are more conservative than they feel they would be otherwise. Its interesting to hear ask immigration, youd actually see more of a 5050 split between republicans and democrats among the Latino Community. Host what are we hearing from emerging voices in the Republican Party on immigration . Who are the leaders of 2013 . In the Republican Party, were trying to capitalize on that opportunity. Guest right. Well, we have some old old is not the right word. We have familiar faces who are going to be involved in the immigration debate. Senator john mccain from arizona, he disappeared from the issue a little bit so he could run for president. Hes back. Hes part of some of the negotiations that theyre having. We also have senator jeff blake, the new senator from arizona, who has been involved on the issue for a long time. He actually sponsored a bill with a noted liberal, an immigration advocate, louis gutierrez, back when he was in the house. Then we have new people. Marco rubio, senator from florida, obviously a president ial hopeful, has been involved in the issue. A lot behalf he has to say is about the tone that republicans take. I dont think hes going to be involved in the nuts and bolts, because its partly because of his president ial ambitions. But hes tried to come up with a middleground way, maybe not amnesty, but some sort of legalization, not citizenship. Its not clear how it would work. He speaks very eloquently about this. Well have to see how that plays out. Then there are new people. Theres the senator from texas, newly elect senator. Hes very conservative. And in order to actually move something through the congress, youre going to need people like him signing off on it. So ill be interested to hear what he has to say. We already have senator mike lee from utah. Hes a tea party favorite, although hes very smart and hes hugely constitutional thats his whole shtick, adhering strictly to the constitution. Hes on what they call a gang of eight in the senate. The gang of eight will be trying to figure out a bipartisan solution. I think you have to wait a little bit to see whats going to happen in the house. There is a new chairman of the judiciary committee, and he is hes been around for a long time hes pretty conservative on the issue. My guess is hes going to look more at enforcement. Host fawn johnson, correspondent for national journal. Lets hear from jay in pennsylvania, republican line. Hi, jay. Caller hi. I have a couple of things to say. Ive called before. This is important. We always frame this in economic terms and never cultural. I grew up here in sellersville, a town that i just got back from north dakota. Im a blondhaired, blueeyed migrant worker. I left this town because there was really nothing left. I called and i talked to cspans youd convince about three months ago. I went out there for the sugar bee harvest. I also had a good job, and ive come back for the winter. Im going back in a few months. Out there, somehow, they get things done with a population thats about 99 white, mostly german and norwegian. All the people that wash dishes, and most of the people that work in roofing are all white. Same thing with my town. I was a roofer here 20 years ago. There wasnt a mexican for hundreds of miles. And somehow we got things built. Somehow we framed houses. My friends were all plumbers and heating and cooling mechanics and we made very good money until they began to import wonderful diversity into our town, diverse thought most of the people look out from the window that you see in your air conditioned little offices. Well, there are 10,000 towns like sellersville where there are people who work with their hands and they dont not everybody is a politician, not everybody is a pun did it or a journalist. They have to have these jobs. Thats a little myth. Now, i want to say one more thing host before we move on to that. Lets just check with you. Theres certainly people who are americans who are not white. What youre talking about is a largely white workforce. Are you ok with the Diverse Workforce thats born in america . Caller of course. But lets back up a second, libby, here. We frame this economically and not culturally. Were made up of a assimilated groups that were melted down and made simple i grew up in a town where there was polish people, hungarian, german, italian. We didnt even know what we were. Thats what weve forgotten n. Our history, we always cut the Apron Strings of migration at a certain point. There are only six millian germans allowed to come here, only five million italians. In 196, Woodrow Wilson sent 5,000 troops under black jack to secure the southern border after the incursions into there it was not close to the violence today, or the ilLegal Immigration today. Whenever we had a down turn with a great depression, you halted migration because there were hundreds of thousands of americans in bread lines. Host well talk about the economy in just a moment. I want to share a tweet thats similar to what youre saying. Bob says immigrants are welcome if they choose to become americans by getting required nationalization, becoming citizens, speaking english, and paying taxes. There are too many that want to come here, work, and some of the money they make back to their country. Jeff says on facebook, the existing laws just need to be enforced. Thats all on our facebook page. Look for cspan. We see a comment from gary on to witter who writes, its time to address ilLegal Immigration while the economy is in the dumps. Hopefully the economy will improve. Then the floodgates will reopen. Fawn johnson, what correlation are we seeing between the economy and immigration . Guest well, thats an interesting comment you just read, because the last time that i saw a lot of action on immigration happening in the United States and inside the capital was when there was a huge economic boom. This was in the late 1990s, early 2000, part of the internet bubble. A lot of the action was actually happening on hightech , highskilled there were Tech Companies who are just screaming for them. Its hard to imagine, but they actually raised the limit for those, the visas for hightech, highskilled workers to about 200,000 per year, which is unthinkable at this point. Were in a really different situation right now. Because of it, weve actually had fewer Illegal Immigrants. Wee got a lot less to deal with, in fact. I think the apprehensions at the border have dropped about Something Like 2 3. There are fewer people trying to come in. I was actually down there last year. The Border Agents were complaining about being bored. Sometimes they just walk along the border and nothings happening. Thats what the economic down turn does. I think that your commenter might be right, though, that with a down economy, it gives people a chance to sort of step back and say, ok, what makes sense without having some sort of threat hanging over their heads that businesses are going to close or that they need their workers . Its hard to say, because one of the things that republicans have repeatedly been saying throughout the last couple of years is that we cant even think about opening the gates to anybody until we get the Employment Situation up. Its a very effective argument, and its really good at stopping things from happening. So well see. Host here had numbers from the pew research center. Unauthorized immigrants in 2011, 11. 1 million. It says there were 11. 1 million unauthorized immigrants living in the u. S. Back in march 2011, unchanged from previous two years, and the continuation of the sharp decline in the population since its peak in 2007. You can see there its falling down slightly. And then also, from the Pew Research Hispanic center, the net migration from mexico specifically falls to zero and perhaps less. You can see the change over time of that pattern of immigration. One says, my Second Generation still dont speak english, giving a perspective different than our pennsylvania caller. Lets go to jeff in knoxville, tennessee, on our independent line. Hi, jeff. Caller good morning. How are you . Host good. Caller im about to agree very much with the guy from pennsylvania. You know, ive seen it start out like the lady was talking about with the illegals in lawn care. It leads from lawn care to the roofing to the painting to, you know, the restaurants. There is a lot of americans and im one of them. I have three children. My wife works, thank god. Were living on about less than by the time our insurance comes out of my wifes check, were living on less than 300 a week. Mortgage payment, car payment, insurance, you know, really, something needs to be done, but you cannot rely on washington. They are so dysfunctional. Instead of worrying about our own borders, were in the middle east worrying about everybody elses. Host so, jeff, what would you change . What would you change . Caller well, what i would change, we would do something serious about border control. Host border control. Caller yes. Host ok. Caller you know, you have to stop the inflow of illegals. You have to. I know your statistics say that the number is down, but the jobs are not there. You know, i would very gladly work lawn care right now if i could find a job doing that. But everybody is afraid to kick an illegal out to put an american in. Thats just the way i feel. Host we mentioned this story earlier, jeff, from the Washington Times today, talking about Border Security efforts. It says, new findings from the Government Accountability office show a broad estimate of how many Illegal Immigrants Border Patrol fails to catch each year. Hope our next caller is from maryland on our democrats line. Good morning. Caller good morning. How are you . Host good, thanks. Happy new year. Caller happy new year. Cspan is one of my favorite programs. I want to know why is it we know immigrants are here. Immigrants are here illegal. Companies will hide them and put them to work. I know some of our young people are going out, but we need to start at the top and come to the bottom and work up. Im 3 years old. I used to have a licensed daycare for 22 years. I kept hispanic children who was here legal. I love them because i cant hate one and love the other. I have to love them all. I feel like were not doing what we should do to bring this up to a standard where everybody can work. Host thanks for your call. One of our callers on twitter says, when an Employer Claims we cannot find workers, they neglect to add for what we want to pay. Guest i think thats i was interested in hearing the previous caller who was talking about how he would love to have a job in lawn care if he could just get one. I think one of the things that perhaps people have not theres not been as much attention paid to the internal enforcement of immigration in the United States, which is very different than Border Security. Were talking about essentially enforcing employers who hire illegal labor. Its very difficult to do. It requires a lot of investigation. The Obama Administration has been under some criticism from some people who want more enforcement, who are changing the way that it enforces the internal aspect of immigration. Essentially what the Obama Administration is doing is a mass audit of employers i9 forms, which is immigration forms, and looking for irrellities. When they find them, they start pushing a little bit further. Its very different from the Bush Administration, which they basically they just raided employers. They didnt do very many, but it really created a chilling effect, i guess you could say, on hiring illegal labor. Its not really clear exactly how thad that, but one of the things that we should remember is that all of those 11 million undocumented immigrants who we think are here, they came here a while ago. They cant leave. Theyre kind of stuck. And they all have jobs, or some of them have jobs. Its unlike that will their employer will actually fire them unless they do bad work. And so, what do you do in that situation . The only thing you can do is try to force it through the current either audits or raids, and neither one of those work very well. Host how many c. P. A. s who lost their job would go out in the fields and pick lettuce . Shes also talking about the question of unemployment. Steve is up next from corpus christi, texas. Hes a republican. Id like to remind all our listen theres we have a line for folks who are Illegal Immigrants. They can call in at 2025853883. Go ahead, steve. Caller yeah, how you doing . Im just kind of a frustrated republican here. Im a firstgeneration hispanic, retired military guy. I got a college degree. Did that while i was in the service, even on active duty. I mean, we actually created this system to get, i guess, cheaper labor in good economic times. And when it becomes difficult, now all the sudden we look to immigration. You know, im wondering what in the world is going on here when we want these reduced costs . We have people who refuse to do this kind of work. We got americans who would rather get three years of unemployment rather than having to get out there and hustle. The gentleman that was complaining about the lawn care job, move to texas. Theres plenty of jobs out here if youre willing to go to move to them. Host thanks, steve. Guest it was interesting to hear that comment. Ive been interested in watching how texas particularly deals with this issue, because its a little different from the rest of the country from what i can tell. You can just look at rick perry, who got skewered in the National Polls for supporting some sort of college, you know, instate tuition for undocumented immigrants. It seems to me that theres something going on in texas that im interested in seeing about what is conservative leak our caller, look, maybe we need to come up with something thats a little more rational. My guess is a lot of that has to do with texas is a border state, has been dealing with this. And like our caller said, theyre a little more familiar with the issue. Host lets go to arizona. Were joined by a reporter from phoenix, from a public Radio Station there, jude joffeblock is with us. Thanks for joining us have very early thanks for joining us so very early, jude. We saw the controversial law, sb1070. Remind us what that is, and where is that right now . We havent heard too much about it in the last couple of months , nationwide. Caller sb1070 was the states Immigration Law t. Included several provisions, sort of like the alabama law you heard about earlier. Back in june, the Supreme Court struck down three provisions of the law that the federal government had challenged. Theres been a lot of interest in the one provision they did let go forward. A lot of people have called it the most contentious part of the law or the heart of the law or the show me your papers provision. Its the part that says Law Enforcement are required to check immigration status if they have a reasonable suspicion that a person is in the country illegally. But it wasnt until september that that provision has actually taken effect. So, its really just been a few months here. It also doesnt mean that litigation is over, the law is being challenged. Its just that we do have that provision in effect for the last few months. Host are you getting a sense of how its playing out, how Law Enforcement is dealing with it, how its affecting Illegal Immigrants . Caller well, these stops are happening, and these questions about immigration status are happening on the ground. But whats interesting is that the federal government is going in totally the other direction from arizona on Immigration Enforcement. So, theres been a few decisions that theyve issued basically to convey that theyre not interested in putting everyone whos arrested, whos undocumented, into deportation proceedings. So just two weeks ago, right before christmas, there was an even more informal move. Previously swunl arrested by local police, no matter how minor that infraction, you know, it could be for driving without a license, if they were booked into jail, they were at risk for deportation because immigration officers could pick them up after their criminal case. But now officers are told there has to be a more serious crime. What this is doing, the federal government is saying that theyre not necessarily interested in the immigration status of some of the people who are being stopped and arrested by local Law Enforcement or other criminal offenses. It has the potential to kind of undermine some of the intent of sb1070. Host heres a story from the fronteras desk. Jude joffeblock is looking at this change. Jude joffeblock, if the federal government says were really interested in people who have committed serious misdemeanors, how does that actually play out . Wheres the connection between what the state wants to do versus what the feds care about . Caller thats really the interesting question right now. Thats kind of what exactly, you know, is shaping out on the ground, because we dont quite know. This new policy has only benl in effect for two weeks. We still dont know, but that came from a directive. We still dont know what it will look like on the ground here. Certainly i talked to a sheriff whos certainly a supporter of the sb1070 law and of doing local Immigration Enforcement, and he feels like this is the federal government trying to undermine the states ability to enforce their own laws. Other Immigration Rights advocates think this might be a positive development, the direction that ice is going in, but at the same time, its a little too early to know exactly what it will look like. Host were seeing a story in the Arizona Republic recently about Convention Center bookings. It says theyre down by as much as 30 from 2009. The newspaper says the Immigration Law known as sb1070 is one of several possible factors. Explain that for us and how local businesses received the law. Caller back in 2010, there was kind of this was a National Story that immigration that arizona had passed this Immigration Enforcement law. And so, there was there was a fair amount of backlash, and there were efforts to boycott the state and National Organizations that hold conventions sort of put arizona off of their list. And, you know, theres some debate here about how much the bookings and the Convention Centers going down are attributed to sb1070 and arizonas reputation on immigration. But there are certainly those in the Hospitality Industry who feel like that is that is the reason, or at least a centing factor. I think some other similar cities that accident after the economic down turn, are seeing more of a recovery in their convention business, whereas here in phoenix, were still seeing this downward cycle. Now it makes sense given that a lot of these conventions are booked a couple of years in advance. You know, if a lot of organizations took this move back in 2010, well be seeing the effects of it for a couple of years to come. Join jude joffeblock with kjzz from phoenix, also with the fronteras desk. Fawn johnson with national journal, what is the federal government learning for whats being done in states like arizona and alabama . Guest well, they are its almost like a battle of wills, if you will. Obviously the alabama law was modeled after sb1070. The alabama law actually went a little bit further. They included, for example, provisions on schools. The administration got, i would argue, quite a bit of a win when they sued arizona over sb1070, because even though they allowed that show me your papers provision to remain in force, the other provisions that they struck down were actual al lot more farreaching and involved things like whether or not you could be in my gosh, i cant even remember it anymore, things about your status or whether you could be stopped. So i think the administration is learning where they can and cant go. The place that the Supreme Court seems pretty clear that they want to keep in place is that local Law Enforcement should have some cooperative role with Immigration Enforcement, and thats why they allowed me that show me your papers thing to remain. And so, thats where theyre going to continue with it. The ice provision that jude referred to a little bit earlier is just out for a couple of weeks, and this has been one of those ongoing, interesting debates to watch inside the administration. Because essentially what happens is youll have this directive, this guidance, if you will, from the director morton to say, ok, Immigration Enforcement agents, heres what you should be looking for when youre dealing with this. From what i can tell, im not really sure how much of a change its going to change. The civil Rights Groups dont think its going to make much of a change. They think all agents have way tooshpouf. But there is something to be said for saying, you know what, if you have an expired license plate, were not going to put you in a detention facility for five months. That doesnt make any sense. Host a tweet says, how about ending the war on drugs and stop selling guns to mexico . Looking at the relationship between the u. S. And mexico in another light. Felix is our next caller in Oklahoma City on our independent line. Hi, felix. Caller hello. Good morning. How you doing today . Host good. Caller im a teacher here in Oklahoma City. I teach a big hispanic population that oftentimes, many of my students were brought here by their parents when they were young. It really hurts me to see how many of them dont feel like they can fully incorporate themselves into the whole education process, because they dont have the ability to maximize all the education theyre receiving because they cant go to college or they feel like they cant do this because they dont have a Social Security card or cant apply for financial aid. It seems like, im going to go to work in a few minutes, and a lot of my kids are going to learn what im going to teach today and they wont feel like they can do anything with it. Host has it changed since the since president obama announced this defered deportation caller i have a few a lot of the kids i teach arent old enough yesterday to apply for the document. I teach middle school, but a lot of them are looking at the document as a way to get around that. But its just the fact that, you know, we have people that i hear every day, and, you know, they were brought here everybody was brought here, you know what i mean . It just doesnt seem like we should be able to find a way to fully incorporate them. You know, just find a way to make them citizens just like and you myself and we can work to get that done. It seem like its something that everybody should be able to agree upon, because it doesnt cost anything. Its a free it doesnt seem like it should cost anything to say, all right, look, youve been here, youre doing the right thing, your parents brought you here, youre doing the right thing, and youre learning, youre making good grades, youre not in trouble. Just go ahead and let you become a citizen. And then if they want to attach a fee to that, then thats what they can do. But it just seems like its counterproductive for you to spend tax dollars on people that arent going to be able to fully achieve the potential of what those tax dollars are going into. Its an investment issue to me and doesnt make sense. Host felix, have a good day at school today. He talked about doca, the defered program, the young people who came to the country. How are you seeing that played out . The application process has started. Have we heard reports yet of how its affecting people . Guest well, i havent seen anything thats really damming. It looks like its actually meant to be exactly what it said it was. For the callers purpose, one of the things that people are talking about, the advocates are looking for it, to encourage the administration to actually expand the program to siblings and parents who might be eligible dream act folks. For example, students might be the people theyre talking about, people who are too young for the program. We had about 300,000 applications that have been filed. About 50,000 have been approved. Very few problems that i have heard of. One interesting fact is apparently g. E. D. Applications are going up in arizona because people who saw that they didnt need to graduate from high school, theyre now realizing that perhaps they should get a g. E. D. Host john writes in on to witter and says every legal immigrants should be required within five years to learn english or leave the country. We have some comments on facebook. Terry says, no, there shouldnt be different laws. The laws should be enforced. We need clear, constitutional leadership to enforce the laws we have, protect our borders, and allow immigrants to immigrate in accordance of our law. And looking at one final tweet. Just cut off the free evens. Let people live their dream as long as they dont do harm. Briefly, talk to us about entitlements and how they factor in. Guest thats a good question. I think one thing that people misunderstand is just what people who are immigrants in the United States are entitled to. They generally pay taxes if they have jobs. Quite a few immigrants pay taxes now. But if there were more legal, they would pay taxes. They can go to school, and that is a benefit. But theyre not entitled to things like medicare or to medicaid. The plays where you start to see the costs of things like hospitals, Emergency Rooms particularly for people who dont have their own private insurance have to go. Other than that, theres not a ton of entitlements these people are allowed. And if they were to change the law, i think most people agree they wouldnt be eligible for some of the really costly things like welfare. Host fawn johnson, correspondent with national journal, thanks so much for coming in this morning. Guest pleasure. Host fawn johnson helped us kick off our conversation on immigration. Were going to continue to focus on this topic throughout the washington journal this morning. Coming up next, well hear from dan stein and Clarissa Martinez de castro. They will talk about Illegal Immigrants already in the country. Well be right back. [video clip] q saw a lot of families the student was going to a music school. I wrote an article about a gardener who sent his son to college. The debt made about 21,000 a year. He was able to borrow six figures for his son. There was no underwriting. This lender settled with the new york attorneys generals office. It was called the preferred lender of lasist. Lenders were accused of paying schools for preferential treatment and to steer students toward a particular loan product. That was the case with this lender. Generation of students may feel very duped and stuck with little relief at this point now that they are so far in debt. Later today on cspan, the student debt crisis. That is fall live in a clock along with George Mitchell that is at 8 00 later today on cspan. Hollywoods most famous movie stars helping to sell war bonds. All part of a contingent of the celebrities giving their time and talents to aid the war e ffort. How Popular Culture presented the war. How was it presented in comic books from the 1940s . How was it presented in athletic events and in tin pan alley from the 1940s . Popular culture and world war ii with professor randy roberts, saturday night on c span3. Host we continue our conversation with clarissa ro and danielastr stein, the president of federation for american Immigration Reform. Thank you for being here. What happens if somebody is here illegally . Guest right now 2 3 of the people have been here for over 10 years. The majority of them are in families where there is a u. S. Citizen. Right now it doesnt matter whether you have been here for 20 years, 10 years, one year. If you are found, you would be put in deportation proceedings. The obama has deported more people than any previous administration. There is a large population. It will not be automatic to deport everyone. We spent 18 billion and we think there is a better way. Guest it is question of where you are and where you are detected and what the current policy is. In the end, what happens to an alien that is apprehended is different than what can happen to an alien that is picked up by local police for drunk driving. The question of whether there will be turned over for proceedings and an order to show cause and they may or may not be contained. There is a procedural process that can go on for a long time. How many levels of appeal he she decides to pursue. There is virtually zero Law Enforcement, no interior Law Enforcement at all unless you are a felon. Or you are a terrorist. It is directed to state and local police not to detain or not to expect ice to detained aliens. Only bad criminals. Thats not what the law says. What reform means is fixing the problems we have today. Host focusing on the key word of reform. What would you like to see done . Guest recommendations that go back 35 years. What is required to deter ilLegal Immigration. The elimination of the family preferences that create a chain migration. Other groups have their particular pet issue. You have to eliminate the chain migration system. Would like to see those reforms and others. Host what does Immigration Reform lookalike to la raza . Guest Congress Seems to be a little behind teh ballothe balln that. We need to restore the rule of law. Creating channels that can get good with the law and have the responsibilities that we have here. You cannot restore the rule of law by simply doing enforcements. There are 11 Million People living in our families and communities married to american citizens. Preserving the rule of law. We have not fixed our Legal Immigration system in a way that responds to the economy. How much have you changed in 20 years let alone our economy . We need a system that is elastic and respects the bedrock of family values. If we do those things, i think we can get out of this mess. Host we are talking about u. S. Citizenship. Our guests are Clarissa Martinez de castro and dan stein. Our first caller is ellen from new york state. I am of the older generation. I remember senator kennedy said we have to fix immigration and i agreed with him. We were supposed to be given a way that employers would not be hiring illegal aliens. My own senator put a loophole in there. Nobody is using everify. I object every time a bill came up, like money that was given to construction work. An amendment was trying to be put in the contractors had to use everify to get jobs. It was cut down by the Democratic Party. Rule is of people working in atomic plants. They wanted to use everify. The democrats cut that down. They were doing in transportation. We spend all kinds of money trying to protect the airports. They wanted to use everify. Democrats said they were not passing that because they were afraid of laza. Our own citizens cannot get jobs because they are coming across the border and getting hired. They are not paying our taxes. Some of the schools have cut a kindergarten classes because they are not getting in come from people working here legally. People of color are losing jobs. People coming across the border dont have to pay the wages. Host you brought up a lot of issues. Clarissa martinez de castro, lets start with everify. What do you think . Guest this show is set up with a republican line and a democrat line. Immigration is a rare issue with those partisan lines are not separate. Every time we have had an immigration debate, its success or failure has been at the hands of both democrats and republicans. There are conversations in the house and senate among republicans and democrats to try to fix it. A couple of things that the caller was mentioning have been proposed and are happening. The program. Use for somebody interested in seeing its become the law of the land and for other viewers, this is a system to verify the eligibility of workers to work. We need congress to pass legislation and to stipulate what happens to a worker with authorization to work that the system identifies wrongly. All of those things. But actually everify is happening. That is a frustration we see all over the place. We want to see a system that makes sense, where immigration is legal, or people become citizens and are fully vested in the future of this country. That is what we want to see. If a politician is able to extract a deal, you end up with a patchwork. We want people to play by their rules. Guest it needs to be made mandatory. It was opposed by the administration. They wanted the freight of an unpopular amnesty bill attached to it. We have gotten promise after promise decade after decade that we would have manageable flows and unmanageable numbers. The administration sued arizona and alabama. The idea that everify is still only voluntary is a national scandal. Host who should everify penalize . Guest businesses need to play a big role. They are part of the attractive magnet. They Pressure Congress just like the democratic constituencies pressure the Democratic Party not to enforce the law. And unprecedented attack on all interior Immigration Law enforcement, opposing the enforcement provision of the jordan recommendation. 9 11, most of them had drivers licenses. Now there is a deferred Action Program. The president said, i will do it myself. The heck with the law. Host we have a line for Illegal Immigrants. That line is 2025853883. Ali is calling on that line from maryland. Caller thank you for taking my call. Host thank you for calling in. Caller i did not understand is to the border. It is not all about that. m from south asia ive been here for the past 12 years. I know how it is. It is a very tough. I have never had a problem with a job. I have people that are depending on me. Host thank you for your call. Why did you come to the United States . Caller i came with my father. My father has health issues. He came here for better treatment. 9 11 happened and the world changed. Before that it was completely different. This is very tough. This happened five years ago. It will be done very soon. It will be done in a black paper. Everybody is expecting it. It will bring a lot of the business and help the lawyers and creditcard companies. I think nobody having problems doing that. Host you said youre from South East Asia . He came there with your father. Do you qualify for the program . Caller i am in my mid 20s. Host lets get a response. Is he qualified for the program . He just misses that window. He talked about the impact on businesses. Concerns about the effect on everyone from credit card companies. Guest this cavalier attitude when we have the Unemployment Rate and very high Unemployment Rates among minority groups. What do we owe people who make the decision to come here illegally and want to work here . We have so many needs of our own at this point. Many of the business lobbys did not want to pay a price to be part of the solution. Host the scare response lets get a response. Guest it is very simple. What attracts americans to our country is Economic Opportunities and jobs. There is the lowest levels of immigration we have seen. Our economy has not been doing well. Migration from some countries has been zero. This is the time to fix it. We need workers to be able to do our work. Right now those demands are not there. This is when we can fix it. Create a system that responds to the needs of the economy that uphold the rights of the american workforce. Right now we have the time. The debate is being blocked and preventing Legal Immigration. The reality has been that blocking Legal Immigration. We have a system that if we do nothing, it is a black market that is encouraged. We want a system that is legal. Host should they be highly educated should they be skilled in science and Math Technology . Guest there are conversations about establishing a commission that would have the interest of workers in mind to look at where the economy is requiring workers. The economy doesnt just need engineers. We need to invest in our young people. We need people in the Service Industry and in other areas. It should complement American Workers. They want something that works. Lets come up with something that will get the bad employers. Host this is from twitter from jeff. Should there be priorities for emigration . Guest does the executive branch have the capacity to regulate immigration . In our view the answer is no. Fraud is rampant. It is all political. This has degenerated into a political debate. Host what about the plan about qualified Foreign Workers . Guest there are millions of americans that need work. Temporary or not immigrant visas that are supposed to be for highly skilled workers. Employers are reliant on Foreign Workers for various new applications in growth industries. The longer we allow these businesses to continue to rely it is not a foregone conclusion the United States will be able to attract the best and brightest much longer. There will be an enormous debt obligation for somebody coming into the society. This congress will not pass Immigration Reform a luster is a willingness to come for it to get something done. Host we have a graphic from the pew research center. You can see the u. S. Going to mexico and the mexico flow to United States. Lets hear from mark. Caller if all the citizens and the illegals are undocumented are given a path to citizenship. Then we pass comprehensive Immigration Reform. Then this process started. We have people right now. People are legal and start coming again and something happens. Do they get a get out of jail free card and sent back to the country they came from . Guest thank you for the question. I think there are misconceptions about citizenship. That is one thing that is being talked about as part of the Immigration Reform proposal. When you hear we need legalization, i think there has been dan has done a good job in making people think there is a free pass or a get out of jail free pass or automatic citizenship. That is a big disservice to the system we have in place. Wheat value that in our country a great deal. Body has proposed nobody has proposed there is any kind of avenue where an immigrant gets an automatic passed to citizenship. People who are here and do not have legal status would have to come forward and get vetted and do all kinds of other things in order to have a shot to stay in the country and earn legal status. After several years will the have and ability to apply for citizenship and go through the vigorous process. Im glad you asked that. People think these 11 Million People will become voters. Host what should be the legal route to becoming a citizen . Guest if you want to craft new citizens, you want a process where they learn. They would learn english and history to the point where five years later or three years later, they can take the naturalization exam and do well and then learn what it means to participate in a democracy. Host that process should be done before they come to america. Guest incentivizing lawbreaking is what the amnesty bill is all about. Ronald reagan signed an amnesty bill and it didnt provide a boon of votes for republicans. Latinos are not voting based on the immigration issue. We saw fraud associated with doca. Guest that is not true. Guest 25 had more than six family members. Unless you streamline the you can bring spouse you have to go home and see your aunt and uncle. Commission after Commission Said you have to do this. Host you say you have different numbers. Caller not different numbers. The reality is this. We need to fix our immigration system. I was tickled when you said reagan did this and he did not get votes. If there is Immigration Reform, nobody will become a voter tomorrow. This argument will take 10 or 15 years. We just want an immigration system that makes sense where were put an end to the black market that is creating some much trouble. Host we are talking about immigration with Clarissa Martinez de castro and dan stein. Two of our tweeters online have found some common ground. Host those to differ great often on our twitter stream. You can join the conversation on twitter at twitter. Com cspanwj. Uan is an illegal immigrant turn down your tv and go ahead. Caller yeah. Host you need to turn down your tv. Caller can you hear me . Host we will put juan on hold. Hi,k t thomas. Caller i have a couple of options. I think a lot of our Illegal Immigrants that are here between 35 and younger, i believe that they need to understand the constitution and read and know it. It would be different to spend two years in the u. S. Military. People dont understand their freedoms until they defend it. I have a knuckle that served in the military i have an uncle that served in the military. This country was fought for and earned by men and women and the left the military with the same idea. I think it would help them become better citizens. It wasnt just given to them. Host what do you think about service in the military . Guest it has been proposed to try to get the amnesty bill for the front door because it sounds appealing. You could make all citizens amenable to conscription and you would see a dramatic increase in emigration. Host what about the merits . Guest i wish we could abolish gravity so we could all run faster. What Congress Says it should happen Congress Gives a directorate that says it shall be done and it is not happening. Congress has to come forward and say the president has made a declaration and he can rewrite Immigration Laws at will. It is unfair for citizens that were talking about something that will happen. If you are going to conscripts farmers, we sound like the roman empire. Host so you do not support it . Ok. Clarissa martinez de castro. The dream act that looks at the youths brought into this country through no fault of their own proposes that those young people in order to earn their legal status would have to earn their way by going to college or serving in the military. There are a number of active people that are in high school and in rotc programs and things like that. If you talk about forcing people, i hear the caller say he wishes he had the privilege to serve his country. We think that is something at least in the Latino Community there is a very patriotic ve in service to the country and we think that should be an option. There are solutions on the table. We have a way to move forward. Now is the time before the problem gets bigger again. Host independent caller, good morning. Caller i do not understand why you would disparage people for trying to get ahead by working hard and making a better life. I would rather see that then spend our money on actual citizens that do nothing but all day. Ecuoxycotin i think this has to do with racism. What about the north borders like canadians . They can do anything right and send us celine dion. Host he talked about welfare and entitlements. Give us a sense about how it affects the entitlement system. Guest we have a number of immigrants coming in. The chamber lobbies for them. Lowskilled immigrants come with expectations. The lowskilled model is skewing the base of the country in favor of height regulation. All the discussion about the republicans have to change their message to lure the latino vote. We saw this in 1950. There was a political shift that was taken place. The society like ours cannot do that in a manner consistent with importing large numbers of low skilled immigrants, legal and illegal. We see this in states like california, florida, and new york. A country should do its own work. We will do just fine. Host the issue of immigration and entitlements. Guest what brings people here is jobs and economic opportunity. If we want people to stop coming, obliterates jobs and economic opportunity. We have seen that. When the economy went south, people stopped coming. I think it is easy to fix immigration. Undocumented immigrants are prevented from accessing those benefits by law. That is the reality. These benefits are very much quantified in a way that undocumented immigrants are not eligible for them. What brings them here is the expectation of benefits. It is about jobs. Host this from the Pew Hispanic Research center. Michael from connecticut on our democrats line. Caller hi. Thank you for taking my call. I want to say that youre from an Organization Called la raza, which means the race. I think youre more representing the hispanic population than any other group out there. In connecticut, i see more hispanic people working retail jobs. I have been out of work since january. They are taking jobs that i cannot do. For instance, landscaping. I live in a townhouse. I treat them nice. It is not fair to let other people have jobs than other people that have been here longer. Host response to that and tell us about la raza. Guest the Hispanic Community in the United States people have come to see hispanics as being immigrants and being undocumented. Over 70 of latinos are United States citizens 75 . This kind of misconception or somebody sees somebody of hispanic origin in a job and people make the assumption that michael was making in his statement. We have people that just got here and are taking our jobs. 75 have been here since before the birth of the country and have all kinds of immigration experience. I hope that when we talk about our American Workers, we are talking about all of our American Workers and all of our servicemen and women. But i do agree there is a part of our economy. If we have immigration that works, that is going to help us all. Host and la raza means what . Guest la raza translates literally to the race. The meaning is the people. It means and National Council of the people. Host dan stein, tell us about your work. Guest we try to give voice to the American People for emigration policies that work and making sure immigration reflects our other we have been active in all the policy debates in washington and in states around the country. We have bipartisan membership. This is not a partisan issue. We are looking for solutions. Business lobbyists on the left host we want to get more calls in. Richard from texas, good morning. Hello, houston caller i agree with the gentleman. I wish you would stop comparing the plight of hispanics to black people. That is not happening. Host who do you hear doing that . Caller i hear an lot of hispanics say they are going through the same thing of black people. We are losing jobs because of hispanics coming in and taking the jobs. Our kids cannot work because you have hispanics doing yard work that White American kids and black American Kids and brown American Kids should be doing. They are stealing the jobs at mcdonalds. Im glad your receptionist that me in on the line. A lot of people are coming here across the border and they are being exploited. President obama, i know there are a lot of hispanic homosexuals that have come across the border illegally. You need to host you brought up a lot of issues. He talks about jobs and want the young people to be able to get those jobs. He talked about the drug war and who might be exploited. Guest we are a civil rights organizations and work on education, employment, health care, in addition to the immigration. We know a good job is the american way to upward mobility. I have not seen how much legislation has been introduced for better wages. We think that if you have the workforce employers can take advantage of and payless and not give good Safety Equipment to do their jobs, they can take that work force. We want to make sure that people are abiding by those roles. I go back to the point just because you see somebody who looks hispanic 75 of hispanics are in the country legally. Host we have a tweet from grace. We have two more comments from our viewers. Kenneth says also talking about the jobs issue. Guest employers do it exploit illegals. They do not have the bargaining leverage. The data are clear. 6 of the jobs have gone to immigrants. The lower expectation the immigrant flow has has driven americans out of the work force. In national tragedy. Immigration flow is not matched. It needs to be more highly skilled. Were running an 18thcentury Immigration Program and it is destroying the american middle class. Host dan stein and Clarissa Martinez de castro. Immigrant, youal can call us and sharing your perspective, 2025853883. Democrats, 2025853880. Republicans, 2025853881. Independents, 2025853882. Linda from new jersey. Caller good morning. I come from a different perspective. I have been an esl teacher for many years. 95 of my students are illegal. I do not know how they get into the schools. Many are young women and have 3 or four kids. If their children are entitled to medicaid and food stamps. Patterson and passaic have the highest subsidized School Lunch Program because of undocumented workers or illegal people. Is it fair for the taxpayers to have to pay for that. Thank you for taking my call. Guest you are raising excellent points. Public education, Emergency Medical Care i could go on and on. The Supreme Court said illegal immigrant children are entitled to public education. They can be part of an enforcement program. That is not what the Supreme Court said. That decision has been one of the major magnet drawing people here. Look at the welcoming page. It says many immigrants come here because of free education. It actually advertises that. Making it possible for newcomers to get jobs. It is and outrage at what has been going on. It is a complete nonstarter. Guest you never mentioned that the enforcement record of this administration deported more people statistically than anyone ever before. We have an administration that has deported more people than ever before. We have seen those numbers grow every year. 18 billion last year was used on the strategies. Are we prepared to spend upwards of 18 billion for strategies that are not fully sovereign the problem . People in november not just latinos believes the deportation policies your group has advanced and medtronic was talking about is a fantasy. Other people believe what it would take 11 Million People that are spouses or family of United States citizens and dragged them out of the country forcefully is not something the country is ready to see. Others think it does not make sense. It is a fantasy. Lets try to fix it. Lets Pressure Congress to get this done. Host lets take a look at some of those numbers on deportations. Host the issue of the 2012 election. Lets look at what latino voters said was important to them. Host calvin is our next caller from florida. Are you . How or y host turn off your tv. Caller i am hearing double talking. If she was spending so much time improving her country as she is trying to improve ours we would get along better. Host do you have more . Caller if we would put the Illegal Immigrants in the military then they would learn english. Host a little hard to hear because he had his tv on. He also talked about your home. Tell us about your story. Guest this is a perfect segue. Why the issue of immigration is important. The caller made my point. Timedont you spend your fixing your country . Ina United States citizen i am a United States citizen. Go back to where you came from kansas . That is why for the Hispanic Community the issue of immigration has become so important. We have folks that had been here generation over generation for over 500 years. Those kinds of things are affecting the treatment of hispanics, even if they are United States citizens. We live in these next committees. Communities. Not just latinos. That is what i think the public is ready to see this get addressed. Host friend from omaha fred. Caller thank you for taking my call. Im trying to make statements to the lady and to daniel. I started la raza in omaha, nebraska. We have a contingency of people that are doing that. I cannot believe all the different subjects that daniel brought up and with a spin on them that at rates most americans that no that aggravates most americans. I would say that everybody could be in on the table with the congress and the house and the senators and put in what they consider the most important factors in a calculation that can be put to see whether the numbers work. Im talking about Social Security, who pays into Social Security . There might be these actions by different groups that want to educate americans and bring the standards. Look at where we are with the standard of education. Were slipping. Different people are looking different rather than one calculation will formula that could bring in is it right to have these immigrants come in . Guest very helpful to hear your thoughts. The public is not getting the information on this issue that they need. The Obama Administration has inflated the information in their data banks. A lot of those people were put it after 2007. The Obama Administration has collapsed the immigration. Trying to claim he is the reporter in chief deporter in chief. Obama is not the deporter in chief. Host what about the numbers we showed earlier . Host one last question for you regarding the issue of our topic this morning, looking at current law and what happens to immigrants now. Karen says Speaker Boehner once again says the uses the typical republican response. Im so sick and tired of hearing this, that whatever the president proposes will be criticized and ignored by republicans. Dan stein, who are you looking to lead . Guest the strong expert on the issue know what is going on. A lot of expertise. John boehner, sometimes the leadership wants to take a balanced view. Unless they figure out how to attract latino voters first, it is like going over a political cliff. Not that latino voters were really important in the outcome of this last election, but ultimately the quixotic effort to gain latino voters by passing amnesty is a big fat political illusion. Host who are you looking to for leadership in 2013 . Guest there are bipartisan conversations going on in the house and the senate. In the senate you have senator mclane senator mccain, rubio from florida, folks like senator shubert senator schumer, harry reid, and men mendez. They know in order to get something done, you will need folks from both sides of the aisle. Similar conversations are going on in the house. People now in order to get members of both parties something for work it will require compromise. That is what we are talking about. Lets have a real dialogue, leave the hot air on this side, and lets try to fix this. 2013 is really primed to do it. Host you mentioned members in the house and the Committee Members on the judiciary. Here is their website. We will watch on cspan if they take up emigration in 2013 and the years to come. Thank you so much to you both for coming in and talking with us this morning. Guest thank you. Host dan stein is the president of fair. Clarissa martinez de castro of the National Council of la raza. Coming up, ali noorani and Mark Krikorian are our guests. Unemployment numbers in this hour show Weekly Applications for the benefits picked up slightly last week. The latest sign of stability in the job market. The Labor Department says applications rose by 4000 to a seasonally adjusted 371,000, the most in five weeks. The fourweek average increased 6700 to 355,750. That is after falling to a four year low the previous week. President obama is set to nominate his choice for treasury secretary today. The nominee, what house chief of staff jack lew. If confirmed by the senate, he would replace tim geithner. Some complain that he is too unyielding in past fiscal negotiations, specifically alabama senator jeff sessions. He says, jack lew must never be treasury secretary. Adding, any loan disqualifies. Senator sessions is not saying yet whether he will filibuster the nomination. President obama will make the announcement at 1 30 p. M. Eastern time, and you can hear it live on cspan radio or watch on cspan. Meanwhile, labor secretary bill the sullys is resigning, saying she returns labor secretary hilda solis is resigning. Responding to the news, president obama called her a tireless champion for working families. The white house says that attorney general eric holder, health and Human Services secretary kathleen sebelius, and will remain at their posts. A new rule on mortgages. The aim is to return for the first time, federal regulators are laying out rules to ensure mar words can afford to pay the cost of the mortgages. The Consumer Financial Protection Bureau will when the rules take effect, upfront fees will be limited and interestonly loans will be curtailed. Lenders would be required to verify and inspect borrowers financial records. Cfpb director Richard Court recalls the rules, the true essence of responsible wending. You can hear this later today on cspan radio. Yet another fallout from the 2008 crisis was the taxpayer funded bailout of aig. The board of the insurance giant decided not to join in the shareholder lawsuit that accuses the government of unfair terms when it rescued the firm. The lawsuit was first brought by a igs former longtime leader, maurice greenberg. The firms chief executive said the boards decision that was about continuing to move the company forward, not backward. Another busy day at the white house with meetings continuing on gun control efforts. Vice President Joe Biden sits down with gun owners groups today, including the National Rifle association. Yesterday he met with victims advocacy groups. The vicepresident is leading an administrationwide review of gun safety laws and has found urgent action in the wake of last months massacre at a connecticut elementary school. Those are some of the latest headlines on cspan radio. If you ask how many are self identified libertarians, people but would describe themselves as libertarian. You would get maybe 15 10 to 15 . If you ask questions about different ideological things and then track those to different ideologies, depending on which poll you are looking at, you get up to maybe 30 of americans that call themselves libertarian. If you ask the following question, are you economically conservative but socially liberal, you get over half of americans saying that is what they are. That said, just because people say these things, it does not necessarily mean they believe them. If you ask most americans, do you want smaller government, they say yes. But if you ask them to cut any item on the budget, they do not want to cut anything. Based on the best data i have while writing this book, i have to say roughly somewhere between 10 and 30 . Libertarians, if they were kind of conscious and political, they could be a big movement. It could be a big group of people who have a shared ideology and have a big influence in politics, but for various reasons theyre not organized that way right now. A political primer on the libertarianism. Author jason brennan, what you might not know, sunday night at 8 00 on cspans q a. Host we continue our focus on immigration, looking at the enforcement of laws. Mark krikorian is the executive director of the center for Immigration Studies. Welcome to you. And ali noorani is the director of the National Immigration forum. Lets talk about how many illegal and legal immigrants are in the country today. Guest altogether roughly 40 in it 40 million immigrants. That includes naturalized citizens, people with green cards, people who were Illegal Immigrants, and longterm temporary and reverence, too. Out of those 40 million, there are 12 million Illegal Immigrants. About half skipped the border, about half came in on vises and chose not to leave. Host you are tied on the numbers . Caller yes. Host how do we track immigrants . Guest that is the hard part. People are not registering as undocumented and immigrants. That number is really established based on a number of estimates from the population survey, the American Community survey, etc. Of those 10 million or 11 million who are here, all of them want to be on the road to citizenship and contribute as full members of american society. Host when we talk about enforcement of the law that happens on the federal and state level, who are the agencies responsible for that . Guest the department of Homeland Security, and within that department there is customs and Border Protection, immigration and Customs Enforcement. Citizenship and Immigration Services has some enforcement function. But it really falls within two agencies. Host how have the laws in states like arizona and alabama affected enforcement . Guest what we have seen happening in arizona and alabama, is really a localizing of Immigration Enforcement. That has had an incredible impact on the economy of arizona, has put arizona Law Enforcement in an untenable situation in terms of destroying the trust between local Law Enforcement and immigrants. And that, as a result, means the public is left say it is less safe in arizona. And the acceleration of enforcement has also been called into question in may in a broadway be ruled in a broad way be ruled unconstitutional by the Supreme Court. Host how do you view the guest there are two kinds of conflicts between state and local levels. Some states and localities are attempting to partner with the federal government and help enforce Immigration Laws. Then there are other states and localities that are pulling the other way, essentially nullifying or defying federal Immigration Law. In a sense, what the states need is a strong, clear signal from washington that Immigration Laws are going to be enforced, and here are the ways you can work with us, you the states, can work with us. Congress has actually established a variety of ways for local jurisdictions to work with federal authorities. This administration especially is talking about being tough on enforcement but is taking action only against those states that are helping to enforce Immigration Law, but is not taking action against those states that are nullifying Immigration Law. Host if you would like to join our conversation, here are the numbers to call. Illegal immigrants can join us on a special line, 2025853883. We also have our democratic line, 2025853880. Republican callers, 202585 3881. An independent callers, 202585 3882. How well are the mechanisms in place working . Guest it is at the crossing point, points of entry. In between the crossing points, which is where the Border Patrol is. If you are talking about the Border Patrols function, there is a significant amount of fencing, although that is frankly exaggerated because a lot of the fencing is just designed to keep trucks from driving across the border. You can hop over them. It is not that big of a deal. The Border Patrol has cameras and lights on towers. They have sensors that are buried under the ground so they do not have to be everywhere, but if someone walks over them or if a car drives over it, they know about them. There is a lot of manpower. A lot of technology. Our border infrastructure is better than it used to be. The Border Patrol is still smaller than the nypd, quite a bit smaller than the nypd. And it has to patrol 8,000 miles of the u. S. Border. But considering how bad our border enforcement infrastructure and policies were in the past, things have gotten better, it is just that there is a lot of distance to go. Host ali noorani, what does enforcement look like on the border . Guest mark laid it out well. He did not mention the drones that have been all along the border. What we have seen is a decrease in the number of apprehensions along the border to the point where we are at record lows we have not seen since 1974. This shows two things. One is that the enforcement is working along the border. Second, that there is a real lack of a system for people to apply because people are not seeing net migration into the country decrease as well. Overall, the border is more secure than it has ever been. Any additional investment that needs to happen is at the ports of entry. That is where we see the infrastructure suffering, and that is where we see a majority of our trade between the u. S. And mexico, which is one of the biggest is not the biggest trading partner. But there is also a large number of guns in cash being smuggled. Host Border Security efforts have a long way to go. A recent report by the Government Accountability office showed that an estimated 208,000 Illegal Immigrants escape capture along the 2000mile border. In patriot, ohio, are democrats line. Hi, bill. Caller good morning. You testified on one of these points earlier, and you have got states and cities. Why can the government go and cut off all federal aid to those cities . Host do you think that would be a move . Caller yes, because it would force those people if you do not have the money, those people will not be there. If you do not pay them, they will go someplace else. There is no place for them to work here in this country, the most of them will bail back to their country. Host ali noorani . Guest the issue of century cities is a misnomer. At the end of the day, immigrants are not saying they want to establish a line of communication with the entire immigrant population, regardless of the city or town. It does not mean that one person favors one sanctuary over another, it just means that Law Enforcement can do their job. At the end of the day, this is all about the amount of trust in communication between Law Enforcement and the immigrant community. Those are the kinds of steps that need to be taken. Host Mark Krikorian . Guest when cities prohibit employees from working with Immigration Laws in washington, they are violating federal law. It is illegal to be a sanctuary city. How about just getting off the reimbursement that the Justice Department gives for jailing Illegal Immigrants . If you are a Police Department and you end up with a significant number of illegal aliens in your jail, you can figure out the cost and get a few cents on the dollar. Just cutting that off as something the administration refuses to do. Host what the sanctuary city mean to you . Guest it means a city or county, but it means a city that will not cooperate with federal authorities. Look, if you are an illegal immigrant, we will not tell the federal government about you. Like i said, that is a violation of federal law. Most big cities are like that. Including new york and los angeles and san francisco. Guest actually, most Police Chiefs and sheriffs want to prioritize their resources. They will say i will send my officer to the beat on the street, to talk to the American Community, and make sure that leads are found for drug crimes, violent crime, etc. Blogging that officer down with local enforcement law does nothing blogging bogging that officer down with local illegal immigrant and forcing does nothing to help Law Enforcement. Host we will talk more about how local authorities are handling that issue. Tracy is in long beach, california, a republican. Caller good morning. I have a couple of comments to make. My first question is, what enforcement of illegal Immigration Laws . There is none, particularly in the interior. I reside in southern california, close to the border. We have to get a feel for what is going on and how this country has almost chosen one group, one country to just basically write our Immigration Laws. There is nothing wrong with our Immigration Laws. They have worked for hundreds of years. What you have our lobbies that are looking to circumvent that for their own gain. I wonder who pays mr. Noonans salary . Host do you mean mr. Noorani . Caller yes, mr. Noorani. If you look back at prop 187, the people of california spoke. We put it on the ballot, went to the polls and voted on it. What has happened over the past 15 years, we have subsidized millions of illegal mexicans, and now you look at our country, our budget, our schools, it is a joke. Most of the politicians that have voted to dismantle our laws should be looked at as treasonists. You undermine the fabric of our country and lawenforcement officials by making it politically expedient for them to not do their jobs. There are no problems with the loss. There is the problem with political will. Host we will tackle the question you asked about, funding for ali nooranis organization, in just a moment. He says there are good laws that are just not being used. Guest airport was released that showed in the last 25 years, over 187 billion has been spent to enforce the nations current Immigration Laws. So we do not have an immigration system, we have an Immigration Enforcement system. For us at this moment in time to spend 17 billion, 18 billion a year on Immigration Enforcement, when you look at the sum being spent, it is greater than any other federal enforcement program, cumulatively. When somebody asks, who are you working for, we at the National Immigration forum are advocating we think that were working for the best interest of the country. At this moment time, it is not in the best interest of the country to spend 18 billion a year on a failed enforcement system that does nothing to move us forward. Host this from the Washington Post. The u. S. Spends more on Immigration Enforcement and all other major federal Law Enforcement agencies combined and has increased that spending dramatically over the past quarter of a century. That is according to a report released monday by the migration policy institute. The headline in the New York Times, huge amounts spent on immigration, study finds. Mark krikorian, you take issue with the results of this study. Guest they are just wrong. We have spent a lot of money on enforcement and increase the spending quite a bit. That part is true. But the idea that we spend more on immigration than anything else, in enforcement, thats just not the case. I have written about this before. They had a result, and they frankly jiggered the numbers. One of the things, the 18 billion number that ali talks about is the total of several agencies. Those agencies spent a spend a significant amount of time on customs. If you look at the press releases that ice issues, they arrest a smuggler of dinosaur fossils, things like this. They are all worthy functions, but to say that somehow immigration related, that that is comparable to Border Patrol work or what have you, is just not true. Not to get too much into the details, but they left all out all kinds of federal Law Enforcement functions not related to immigration when they came up with that factoid. Host the subtitle is, the rise of a formidable machinery. Guest i would much rather have customs and Border Protection keep products out of america that are harming our children. But right now, what happens with customs and Border Protection or immigration Customs Enforcement, congress has spent an inordinate amount of money. As a result, there has been no movement to actually create a rational immigration process and that serves the needs of our economy and work force. We would actually be making sure that leadbased toys were not making it past our borders. Host tell us about the center for Immigration Studies the federation for guest we try to make the case for a proimmigrant policy of lower immigration. Like most organizations on any side of the debate, the mix of right and left and center, we have a board and owners and staff that are all over the map politically. As you notice from the first two callers, one a democrat and one a republican, both of them critical of current immigration policy. That highlights the way the immigration issue is not so much a rightleft thing, it is an elite versus the public issue. Host Mark Krikorian and ali noorani are our guests. Mike is on our independent line. Caller i just want to know why the immigration agents find it difficult to get the status changed by applying for a change of status. At the end of the day, it has been rejected, and then they will be forced to move back. After being in the states for so many years. How is it possible host mike, where are you from originally . Caller im from nigeria. Host are you here legally . Do you have a work permit . Caller i have lived here for 16 years. I have been traveling and coming back at the end of the day. The recession has made me in the because i couldnt go back to that country. Host mike sharing some of his experience and asking about the visa illegal the visa process. In the guest rationalize more complicated than any other set of laws. It puts people like mike and a terrible situation. Based on this . Summary of this case, it seems like he has done everything according to the law and gone through the process. At the end of the day, it comes down to an official working for immigration to make a determination. Is it a transparent process . Does michael have access to the resources he needs to be able to navigate it . That is not the way we as a country should be welcoming and valuing people contributed to our economy and moving us forward. Guest ali is right to the extent that our system is too complicated. One of the key things we need to see is more simplification and streamlining. So that it is clearer what it is, who is allowed in, what the rules are. But i take issue with the contention that someone who comes in here on a visa and told our law officer and promised that they were going to go home, and then they just stay. That is lying, pure and simple. You do not need a law degree to know that you have lied to the american government, then broken our Immigration Laws. When your passport was supposed when your passports as you were supposed to have left the country by a certain date. Host you can join the comet you can join the conversation on facebook. We have hundreds of comments so far. John writes in, i think americans look at Illegal Immigrants like this. If i came home one day and someone broke into my house and was not stealing something but doing the dishes, mowing the lawn the bottom line is, they still broke into my house. And mike says, there are only so many fields to pick and hotel rooms to clean. Roberts says, ilLegal Immigration is changing the culture of the country. Ali noorani, we heard earlier in the program that the enforcement arm, ice, is specifically looking at people who are felons. What is the impact of that, and do you agree with it . Guest at the end of the day, we are a nation of laws. Thats how we continue to function better than any country in the world. But our laws must be just and serve the needs of our population. The fact is the immigration system has not been updated for decades. It is antiquated, byzantine, woefully behind. What immigration Customs Enforcement is doing is taking valuable lawenforcement resources and going after the folks who do not belong here, period. The felons, violent criminals, etc. We can spend 18 billion a year that can support a system that is antiquated, or we can create a system that makes taxpayers out of everybody and puts the country on a path forward. Host and u. S. Customs enforcement is one of the primary enforcement agencies. The other is immigration and Customs Enforcement. Mark krikorian, what about those who have broken the law in terms of felons are misdemeanors . Guest each of us prioritizes resources every day, regardless of whether it is enforcement or anything else. So ice as before and will always have priorities of who they will go on after. But Law Enforcement is a combination of going after the top priority of violators but also having a certain level of randomness so that even those who are not murderers or violent criminals know there is a non zero chance of then getting arrested. It is the same as the irs saying if you are a regular tax payer, not a money launderer or a gangster or a dope dealer, and you do not pay your taxes, we will not come after you because you are not high priority. People would find it absurd if the irs said it. But when the white house tells immigration to do that, somehow it is a good thing. Host another comment on twitter. Realistically speaking, we will not round up 12 Million People and send them back. Harold is a democrat. Welcome. Caller hello. I love cspan3 thank you for having me on your show. I love cspan. Thank you for having me on your show. The natural immigration of human beings has been turned into a prohibited and criminalize activity, with proper management and identification of people moving around in our nation in doing business in our nation is much more important. President bush before 9 11 said his one number one his number one priority in the United States was going to be opening up the United States to the tremendous Economic Growth that would be possible by developing this side of the planet. That is true. Because of our fear and invested interest, Law Enforcement and other groups have made huge amounts of money from criminalizing people for doing things that are natural human activities, have destroyed Economic Opportunities for the world that would make the 1990s look like nothing. I would love to hear peoples comments on that. Host Mark Krikorian . Guest the premise of the caller appears to be that we the people of the United States do not have the right to exercise our sovereignty. That is what it amounts to. The fact is the whole point to a national government, national sovereignty, is that the people, through elected representatives, decide who comes and who does not come. Frankly, there is no practical limit to the number of people who would move here if they could. There are 6 billion people in the world. It would not be unrealistic think that 5 of them would move here if they could. That is 300 Million People. If you are ready to do that, take that to the public and see what they think about it. It is completely unrealistic. In fact, in the modern world, with transportation and communications technology, we should be using trade as a substitute for migration. Trade goods, not people, something we can do now that in a way 100 years ago was more difficult. Guest harolds point is interesting, because the eight colleges that at the end of the day we lose because he acknowledges that at the end of the day we lose. There is no longer a process through which people can move to the United States. As a result, we are suffering. So we can go down marks solution and use communication and trade as our emigration policy, but what will happen is we will continue to seek jobs moved to other countries. People come to america for opportunity and freedom. With that comes opportunity and freedom for everybody else who is already here. If we put a big wall on the border, whether it is the land or sea border, and say you cannot come, but we will be mitigated if you and send you jobs, at the end of the day that is bad for the nation. Host ali noorani is the director of the National Immigration forum. Mark krikorian is the director of the center for Immigration Studies. On twitter, the minute they enter illegally, it should be a felony, the very first thing they do coming here. Our next call is brian, an independent caller. Caller there are so many issues that could be addressed. Because of time, i will keep it short. Im married to a woman who is an illegal immigrant. We met, got married. I knew she was an illegal. She was brought here as a young child. I fear that many times when we speak of Illegal Immigrants, people speak of them as if they are animals, not human beings. When it comes to the enforcement of laws, we have to understand that these are people and they have feelings. They have got families. We have been married, we are expecting our first kid. I have a wife now who cannot function in our country because of something that her parents did to her by bringing her in as a young child. At this point she is being punished for it. I appreciate this deferred action that president obama has passed. She has been to college, is a registered nurse. She cannot be a nurse in a hospital because she cannot have a background check. Yes, we do have laws in place, but i see some light at the end of the tunnel, where mr. Obama has created this deferred action. Host does your wife qualify for the deferred Deportation Program . Caller yes, she does. She got it by just a few months. She will be applying for that in the next several months. We have hired a lawyer. Let me say this, she also has several brothers here who do not apply for that, and they missed it for several months. They missed it by several months. These folks were brought here as children. Host does she have any advantage to gaining citizenship or legal residency because she married you, an american citizen . Caller know now, she does not. Guest the caller raises this issue of the dream act, parents who have brought their children here and they have remained. That is one area that i think does warrant amnesty. The dream act is much too expensive is much too expansive. But i think its perfectly appropriate to us i think it is perfectly appropriate to any measure like that has to take into account two things. It is an amnesty. It just is. But all amnestys attract new ilLegal Immigration and also create new downstream Legal Immigration. Any type of legislation would have to have enforcement provisions so you do not have to have more young people being brought in by their parents, as this callers wife was, when she was a kid. And also limit on Legal Immigration sponsorship, so this woman so her parents would not be able to benefit by what they did to their child by bringing her here in italy. Host so it would be a domino effect. From a wikipedia entry, the description of the dream act that was floated in congress, the 2009 version. It includes things like having proof of being in the United States before age 16. You have to be here for at least five years, and involves education requirements. If you qualify, you get conditional status. If they meet conditions at the end of the sixyear period, they could enter permanent residency. This did not pass, this is not law. Instead, the Obama Administration moved forward on deferred deportation. How is that different . Guest deferred action for children childhood rivals. If you came here before the age of 16 and are under the age of 30, you can apply for deferred action. That is a temporary status that allows brians wife to apply for Work Authorization so she can be a nurse and take care of the sick and others and contribute. What it does not allow them to do is get on the road to citizenship. It puts it a clear role between temporary status and then the road to citizenship. I think when brian talks about is the fact that whether it is his wife or her brothers, these are contributing members of our society who want to be a part of america. They believe they are a part of america and they aspire to be citizens. Why is Congress Standing in the way . Why is Congress Ready to spend 18 billion a year to remove people like brians wife or her brothers, rather than putting them on the road to legal status and citizenship, benefiting from their ongoing contribution to america . Host with the National Immigration forum like to see this lead to more expansive policy, not just targeting the age range but having it so that her brothers and parents might qualify . Guest absolutely. We need a broad immigration process that does three things. One is it puts the aspiring citizen who is undocumented on the road this is an ship. So we avoid the process that mark spoke about, so that people when they come in, in the future they have a Legal Process to go through. We do not have that. We need a rational process so that we are not spending 18 billion a year. Prioritize resources, keep us safe, and allow Law Enforcement to do their job in keeping the public secure. Host josh tweets, mr. Krikorian just admitted on c span that he supports the dream act. That shows we have moved the needle on immigration. Guest i have written about this years ago. There is a character in a play who is amazed this sign that he is speaking prose his whole life. That is a much too expensive piece of legislation. I am talking about a dream act 2. 0, if you will, that addresses infants and toddlers who would have to have enforcement, etc. Guest but that falls short of fixing the problem. To have a dream act 2. 0 but not have a functioning immigration process you cannot eat half the work here. You have to create a process that serves the needs of the economy, families, and create a process for people to go through instead of around. Guest i would suggest that amnesty for Illegal Immigrants, from my perspective, is not even an appropriate topic for discussion until we have in place a fully formed Immigration Enforcement infrastructure. We are part of the way there, but if we had a car with no windshield and two wheels, you would not say it was ready to drive. Our illegal Immigration Enforcement system is like that car. We have a good case to make, but it is like an act of mercy on the American People. Young people who not only came as kids, but so young that psychologically speaking they are americans. Guest it is a system that has spent over 180 billion over 25 years. It is spending more money on Immigration Enforcement than any other criminal enforcement plan in the federal government. We cannot afford financially or socially to continue to spend 18 billion a year on Immigration Enforcement. Guest if it is a humvee, it is a humvee without the windshield and only two wheels. Host turn down your tv and go right ahead. Caller hello. How are you . I was just wondering about the topics. First of all, i just wanted to know and i have a secondary question where do you each get your funding for your organizations . Host and what is your next question . Caller my followup question is, our country has typically benefited from immigration throughout history. The europeans came first, the irish, germans, poles, vietnamese, after the vietnam war. Usually after some kind of, but conflict or problem overseas. In 1886, the statue of liberty was brought over and directed from the french. We still have that spirit of bringing people to this country. My concern obviously is the poor indians from 1492. I recall kind of a humorous picture of some apaches saying that they had Homeland Security that if they had Homeland Security, things would have been a lot better off. There are a lot of problems with immigration, and im just trying to find out what your thoughts are. Host ok, lets start with ali noorani. Guest the National Immigration forum are supported by a range of individuals, from the liberal side to the conservative side of the ledger. If you would like to donate, you can go to our website. Thank you. He really gets to the crux here, that we as a nation have a history of valuing immigrants, valuing immigration if it serves our interest looking forward. The problem we have right now is that we need an immigration process in the future. Host Mark Krikorian . Guest we also get support from conservatives and liberals. We do not get any government funding and we do not get the direct mail type of funding because we are a think tank. The one point i would like to make substantively is, i want to make sure we do not repeat these mistakes of not having real Homeland Security. Host a tweet bill we have an illegal employer problem dont we have an illegal employer problem . Guest the unscrupulous employers, the ones who take advantage of workers. If we had a system that created an octave an opportunity for an undocumented worker to be on the road to citizenship, then that unscrupulous employer would not be able to exploit anyone and every worker would be able to compete for the same job at the same wage. There is no floor that everybody can compete from. Host Mark Krikorian . Guest we have any legal employer problem because there are some bad apples, but frankly speaking, that is not the problem. Most illegal entrants work on the books, are not really pay that much less than legal workers in similar jobs, similar education. The problem, the employment related problem that ilLegal Immigration creates is not so much the illegality, is that we are flooding the lowskilled work force with competition from our own competition for our own young people, lowskilled workers. Immigration enforcement can deal with that problem by closing those jobs off for Illegal Immigrants, but it is not so much it is employers rubbing their hands together, the problem is that legitimate employers do not even know who the illegal aliens are. This is why we need everify, an Online System for screening new workers, to be part of the hiring process. This is why we need a Social Security and irs to tell employers when they are hiring illegal workers. Social security and irs know where millions of illegal workers are, they know where they work and where they live, but in the what a perverse but a perverse interpretation of privacy laws leave them not to disclose that. Host you are next. Caller when i apply for a job, i have to sew a social the i have to show a Social Security card and drivers license. So why arent these employers required to follow the rules . If they are caught, maybe they should have to pay the cost of Immigration Enforcement themselves. Host krikorian . Guest most employers go through the motions. When you go to a new job, you show a document that demonstrates who you are and shows that you have the right to work. The problem is that most employers are not crooks, it is just that they have no idea whether this is a legitimate or fake document. If they look too closely, the Justice Department has an entire office devoted to selling them if they are too zealous in making sure that the people they are hiring are legal immigrants. So businesses are between a rock and a hard place. They need everify. Host so what is the intent of why bother . Guest the immigration service, under this administration, has stopped full employer raids. They do audits of your people work sometimes and tell you that these people are illegal and you have to fire them. And they do that, and these people go across the street and get jobs with their competitors. This is why with mandatory use of everify, you just make sure that the person you are hiring is not lying to you. Something like 60 of Illegal Immigrants who work have lied to their employers about who they are. Host hyattsville, maryland, democratic caller kenny is up. He is any legal he is an illegal immigrant. Good morning. Caller when you look at the immigrants in this country, when the french came in, the germans all these people were faced with different problems that they could not be included in the system. But the good thing is i believe at this time in this century, everybody that is against immigration also will fail. These people need to go see seven or eight People Living in an apartment. Host where are you from and how long have you been here . Caller i am from nigeria and i have been here for three years now. Host have you been able to find work . Caller yes. For people to say that they do not get employed, the need to go to mcdonalds. They need to go and get 7. 50. Host the line is a little rusty 31, so we will vote to Mark Krikorian. Guest part of the reason is that we are adding this additional huge number of people to the lowskill labor market. A lot of those employers in fact do not use the everify system. Even the ones that are legitimate. There is a burger king franchise across the street from mcdonalds if the competitor is not using it, and you are, you put yourself at a competitive disadvantage just by complying with the law. This is why has to apply to everybody. This is why it has to apply to everybody. I was in high school before i realized that there were all people who spoke about acts cents. I teach citizenship classes to Illegal Immigrants. The idea that somehow supporting tighter controls and lower levels of immigration must inevitably be the result of a complete unfamiliarity with immigrants and immigration is baloney. Host were you born in the u. S. . Where was your family from . Guest originally turkey, the western part of armenia. The ones who got out are the ones who are here. Host we are talking with Mark Krikorian and ali noorani. Lets go to pennsylvania. The independent line. Caller hello. Host go ahead. Caller the part of the discussion when you had your previous guests my question is twofold. You say to Illegal Immigrants go back to the country, i wonder guests to distinguish between the immigrant from the 60 from the 1960s, and those who come here and presently what is the difference . My next question is, i know that probably 75 or 80 of people today who come into this country, or their grandparents or great and parents or great grandparents came to this country illegally saying that those who came here as immigrants should go back to their country. It is funny to me because they look at the history of the United States the native americans, the indians, are the original people here. Host are you an immigrant to the u. S. . Caller yes, i am a legal immigrant. Host our caller talking about how is it different for someone who immigrated here in the 1960s vs today. Ali noorani, what does it mean to be an american . Guest we as a country have had a long and sometimes good, sometimes difficult relationship with immigrants. We have gone from the days of irish need not apply, to the chinese exclusion act. Momenteached a bubbling of great tension in the country and we have been able to fix our immigration system. That is what i hope happens to us in 2013. What it means to be american, it means you believe in family, and hard work, in opportunity. You believe in freedom. That is why my parents came to the United States. That is why marks parents came to the United States. Host your parents immigrated to the u. S. . Where are they from . Guest there from pakistan. At the end of the day, defining american is defining who we are as a society. It is up to congress to get together and fix the problem. Host the immigration system is not working. It is broke into the corps, and there is a massive problem for the government. And other tweet says, what about the rule that would have a it would have required employers to act when they got a no match letter from Social Security . Guest the Bush Administration issued a rule that when employers got a letter from Social Security saying that the name and the number do not match or the number is fake or something, look into it, and here you are we are letting you know, the rule said they had to pursue a certain number of steps. If those various things do not resolve it, they had to let the guy go. What happened was that the unholy alliance of the aclu, the u. S. Chamber of commerce, and the aflcio sued that rule because they knew it when identify Illegal Immigrants in the work force. They succeeded in stopping it, and this administration pulled the rule out altogether. Host does it go too far . Guest it is bad for business, the economy, and jobs. If we had a functioning immigration system so that employers would not have to worry about immigration status, then we would be able to create jobs and move forward. Host thank you so much for both of you. Ali noorani of the National Immigration forum,