Transcripts For CSPAN Washington Journal 07312022 20220731

31, 2022. Welcome to washington journal. Our question is a third party or more needed in the u. S. . If you say the numbers are on the bottom of your screen. It doesnt matter what party. You can also send us a text. Tell us your name, where youre texting from. Were on facebook, on twitter and instagram at cspan wj. And it was the announcement this week by three former prominent democrats and republicans and published in the Washington Post and elsewhere their formation of the Forward Party. This is the piece in the Washington Post. Most thirdparties have failed heres why ours wont. In their piece, they say in a system that is torn apart by two increasingly divided extremes, we must reintroduce choice and competition. So is a thirdparty or more needed in the u. S. . We will hear from andrew yang and read more and some other views saying no a third party is not the way to go. Were joined next by bernard thomas, an associate professor of politics from the great state of georgia. Welcome to washington journal. Guest thank you. Host so ill ask you the question. Is a third party a Viable Third Party or more needed in the United States . Guest well multiparty politics would be a great achievement and would improve our political system. Im not sure that its a realistic goal to hope that we can somehow transform into three or four parties. But third parties have played an Important Role in american politics and that role has mostly been to pressurize the other parties, especially in moments like this. Historically these are exactly the moments where third parties have mean the most successful, when the two major parties have become very polarized. And the other parties, one or two of them, would attack them from the middle in the sense they would do a strategy that is often referred to as the sting like a bee strategy they would move to take votes away from them and force those parties to respond. So that theyre not just moving towards the side that they actually have to moderate themselves. So in this sense they are consistent with the longterm history of when third parties actually have had a big impact in American People politics. The other question, underlying our conversation this morning is kind of surprising, is the sort of do the Major Political parties represent your views . And asking our callers. Kind of surprised to see this report from this pole from Suffolk University just this past week. So their polling says yes 25 say that my party represents my views. 15 were undecided. But 60 said no. But the major parties do not reflect their views. Guest i think thats consistent with the Political Science research on this. The Political Parties themselves have become very polarized. The American People, they have something called negative partisanship. Theres opposition to republicans dislike the democrats, the democratic vote dislike the republicans. But the views of most americans on a lot of issues have not polarized that much. So there is a Structural Movement away from the voting base. So there really is a middle that feels like its not being represented by either party. And that does open the door for this kind of a strategy. Host the most recent examples we have of president ial candidates who ran on third parties, the ralph naders, we mentioned ross perot. And in 1996 John Anderson in 1980. What was the best that anybody did in those races . Guest well perot was a giant impact. In terms of the other two im not sure how much they actually influenced the political system. Maybe the outcome a little bit of the president ial race. But in a sense what they are a bad analogy for the Forward Party to be looking at is that they focused entirely on president ial race. It was almost like there was a pretend thirdparty. And this is in common for third parties over the last quite a few decades. But the more successful third parties were actually more real Political Parties that really had challenges going at all levels, not just at the president ial level. And this becomes the critical question, is whether or not they can one of the critical questions whether or not they can challenge the Forward Party can challenge at the congressional level, the state legislative level to push these parties. So and so they really have to look at it. Its like being a startup. They have to come from a different angle. They cannot simply copy the strategies of the major parties or even the strategies of the last few third parties. They really have to come from an approach that the democrats and the republicans arent prepared for. One more thing here. It appears if you look at their platform at Forward Party. Com, that a lot of their focus will be on the election process itself part of which includes calling for rank choice voting, nonpartisan primaries and independent redistricting commissions to end socalled jerry mannedering. Theyre calling for election reform at a time when elections themselves are the subject of heated debate across the country. Its a good angle to take. If we go back to the progressives, they were the Progressive Party back in 1910, 1912, they were looking for structural reform. This is what they pushed for. And this is what they got. This was a big part of their success. So it really does but it really does have to be built. They have to find a way to build it as if its like a social movement. It cannot be where, ok, now were going to find a bunch of professional politicians and theyre going to run. A lot of them are not going to want to, anyway. But the resource problem that this party is going to have compared to the democrats and the republicans is going to be astronomicalcal. So they have to find a way of running as almost like the unified team. Not running a thousand, 2,000 individual campaigns but running as one unit with these kind of essential core arguments and trying to force those parties by taking their voters to shift back to the middle and go along with these compromises, these structural changes that theyre talking about. Host bernard thomas, thanks for joining us this morning. Guest thank you. Host well hear from you and your thoughts, is a third party or more needed in the u. S. . This tw the advent weve been talking about the Forward Party this week. This is the piece the headline most third parties have failed. Heres why ours wont. In that piece they write this. Lets go first to juliet in rockport, massachusetts. You say yes, there needs to be a viable thirdparty . Caller yes, i voted for ross perot and ill never forget the fame words he uttered. That was the big debate back then. Immigration were going back 30 years. You fast forward and i have this sort of thought that donald trump was a de facto thirdparty candidate. He has tried to or he thought of running for president many times before he did in 2016 but he couldnt run as a thirdparty candidate. He was a democrat, a republican, back to a democrat again. And then after that 30 years we have deindustrialization. We have the hollowing out of america. We have what is seemingly a twotier system in our country. We have the elites and then the lower rungs of the economic ladder and people are struggling. And if there were enough talent out there for someone who could push through, i really think it would resonate. But its were so monolithic in our politics that its very difficult to break out of that mold. But what appealed to me about ross perot, he came out with the charts and graphs, i just found that to be very illuminating because he was a very matter of fact nonpolitician but he had these facts that were concrete, that were easy to read and to understand. And host but where did you go politically after ross perot . He ran in 92 and again on im trying to recall the party in 96. Where do you go politically . Caller i have voted for only one democrat in miz entire history of voting for president s. That was bill clinton. And i voted for reagan in 84 and then and then post that ive always voted republican. But ross perot appealed to me. And coming forward to this particular time in our political kind of climate, donald trump as borish as he was and offensive in his remarks, he was speaking to the people who dont have confidence and sort of, their confidence in our institutions has really declined over the years. And weve become so polarized in our country with social media and the Mainstream Media and its just overwhelming. And people just have so many mixed messages. Like you were just discussing about how most people in america are swing voters. Its the independents which i am that swing all president ial elections. So somebody could appeal to those swing voters but then you have your far left far right, and those are the people very monolithic in their political ideology and its hard to get them to move to the center. Host well go to james in florida. Not sure we need a new party. What are your current thoughts . Caller well, i would be interested in finding more about the Forward Party. I voted for nayeder i dont know how many times i voted for perot. Im a thirdparty person. But we ignore the constitution. We dont have runoffs. So the way that our laws are written and amended 12 and article 2, is that if you dont get 50 of the vote, it goes to the house and the house gets to vote on their own. We dont have runoffs. But so unless we fix our constitution to accommodate a third party, because if somebody runs against 3 of the vote and then someone gets 49 , someone gets 48 but no one will be president because no one got 50 plus one so it goes to the house of representatives and thai get to pick out of the top three or Something Like that. And this country will not survive that. I wish someone i wish i had spoken to your last speaker to get his perspective but this gets ignored. Ive been listening to cspan since the beginning, ive only heard you address this three or four times. Host do you think we need caller we need a third party pu we need to address how we do that. When the house elects a president by themselves host do you think it starts at the local level places that make it hard for an independent or thifrp at the state level if youre an independent to participate in a state primary of that stage primary . Is it hard at the local level to begin with . Caller ive been in florida and lived in california for 20 years, and its different state by state. I remember one of the elections i voted for somebody in the green party and she was not allowed on the president ial debate stage. She was actually arrested outside of the debate hall because she wanted to come in but the democrats and the republicans who handled the debates themselves, by private organization, they figured out that you have to have certain Percentage Points or Something Like that in the state election or local election. So they arbitrarily set that rate so high that no one else is even going to get on the stage with them. This is kind of ridiculous. They did that on purpose and theyre criticized for doing it. But as a public, we are cheap. We get a lot of propaganda. We call it fake news, whatever you want to call it. But thats whats happening in our government. Its these controls by the democrats and republicans at the state level. Theres no law saying that they have to run our government. If they had convinced each state one by one that theyre all powerful and in california when i lived there the state decide that had were not going to spend 75 million to have your primaries and then have you dictate to us how we run our primaries that we pay for. So thats why california had open primaries where anybody can vote if the state is going to pay for it. But here in florida we still have, you can only vote in the primary if you belong to the club. Host a number of other states like that as well. Thanks for the call. Our lines as you can see this morning are not by political party, theyre asking you is a third party or more needed in the u. S. Based on the announcement last week of this new Forward Party. If you say the numbers are on the bottom of your screen. One of the cofounders, andrew yang explained why he thinks, why they think the party is needed now. If you want to solve the problem heres how we do it. The Forward Party has the very straight forward tenant. We changed the primary system from the closed Party Primaries to open primaries and rank choice voting. This will immediately make our figures more rational because they have to cater to 50 . One state has already done this. Alaska and there are 24 other states where you can do this with ballot initiatives. Universal basic income, hum centered economy, factbased governance. Modern effective government, system that work but also grace and tolerance. Were not out to demonize or villainize anyone. What we have a problem with is a system thats going to turn us against each other. What were in the midst of is one of the Worst Nightmares. Theres nothing in the constitution about any political party. And the due oply would be their Worst Nightmare come to life because what they would have seen is factions that clash over and over again and are susceptible to bad leadership. If you look at democracies around the world, how many parties do they have . Five, seven, eight, 18. Then youd have shifting coalition, people would come together and get things done. And by the way if one of the parties that come to bad leadership, weve got another 17. Thats how you make a strong system thats actually responsive to the needs of our time. Host this is the headline from todays sunday New York Times. In that piece he writes that the most successful third parties have been those that galvanize the narrow slices of public over a specific set of issues. Lets hear from nicholas in new hampshire. Good morning. Caller hi. I was just listening to that report you just had. I think one of the great things thoobt Forward Party, im a registered libertarian but just hearing what its about, it doesnt sound like its on an idea lodge skl scale. Its speaking more to structural issues with the political system in the United States. And for me like i just read an article the other day in the New York Times so right now were looking at a situation in new york where im from where were probably only going to have kathy and lee on our ballot. Very sharp candidate. Hes blocked on the ballot. Governor cuomo he signed a law that says we need triple the number of people just to get on the ballot. So it made it that much harder just to get a thirdparty candidate. That stuff is happening not just in new york. I mean, for me yeah we do need thirdparties and its not just because im registered third party. What yang is saying, this is something that all americans should be able to get behind that were trying to break the due oply but it does have a vice grip. Thats what wr im at right now. Host to greg in north carolina. Good morning. Caller good morning. I think we very much need a third party because whats happening is people are going in reference to president ial elections theyre going to the ballot and voting, making protests votes. So people go and vote because they dont like trump and they vote for biden even though they might not necessarily want biden to be president. And so this has been happening for probably decades. I think the last time i voted for somebody that i really wanted to vote for was about 20 years ago. Ive been going to the and voting against the other candidates not because i really like the person that i wanted to vote for. Host who was the last president ial candidate that you really wanted to vote for . Caller that was probably george bush in 2000. So and thats whats been happening. People go and then really only have a binary choice, end up getting somebody that may be we dont really want. So we need to get a somebody in there that can really speak to the people and actually be a viable thifrp thirdparty candidate. Host terry from tennessee. Good morning. Caller good morning. We do need a third party. The two weve got is just playing a stupid childs game, i didnt do it, they did it, they wont let me do it. And maybe by getting a third party in there they can both will jump on them then and at least, were going downhill fast. Its just weve just got to get something straightened out. Were losing our country. Host comments on twitter. This one says no. Not surprisingly, the gallup poll on this issues continues to show support for a third party. Their most recent polling, about six months ago of this year perceived need for a third u. S. Political party at a high point and the number, the percentage say a third party is needed is up to 62 of those surveyed. Well hear from joseph who is not sure from charleston, South Carolina. Caller good morning. Heres the problem and you know it, youre in the industry, youre in the media and we all know you know it and everybody listening to this know that is the two ms control our National Elections thats media and money. Youve got to have a camera in your face and millions and millions of dollars to put up a Good Campaign. And so far that hasnt happened. I shouldnt say that. Ross perot did kind of ok. You may remember George Wallace got 46 electoral votes. North carolina split and threw votes at him. So it can happen. Now, in 2016, i voted for Darrell Castle of the constitutional party. In 2012 they ran virgil good, you might remember him to cspans credit you had him on there and he was a congressman from virginia who tried the Democrat Party and Republican Party he got fed up with the whole mess and went with the constitutional party. Some people are hungry for that. I dont know if they can put up a Good Campaign without the media and money. Host i think thats the subtext to our conversation is not is the third party. There are third parties out there and cspan has covered the conventions for the constitution party, for the green party, and others as well. The question is with this new freedom party, with andrew yang and others forming this, is that the one . Is this needed at this time . Thanks for calling in. Well go to zachary in indiana. Caller thank you for v cspan. Having run im supportive of people having Ballot Access, being accessible and going that path. I dont know if i know in the clip that you had yang talk about the alaska limitation on primaries i see that as a detriment. Why limit it to a few people from an open primary . I think changing items around Ballot Access are key. Money is a component but even with my campaign it was under 400 and we got over 24 of the vote for mayor in west lafayette. So it can be done. I was quite pleased with that having been shut out of two debates where the other candidate didnt want to show up so they didnt want to have a onesided single candidate component. It is hard work but going, it was a lot of door to door, a lot of shoe leather trying to be as accessible as possible. People talking about i dont know if the president ial is the easiest to go after initially but growing it from the local level is where to start. Theres a lot of interest in talking to people that arent democrats, arent republicans, and hearing about those issues and ways to empower individual voters and citizens to be engaged and not just superficially used to be elected to a position of power but really how do we build that Community Around politics to people involved. Host would you run again . Caller definitely. That, the big question, the formal question will come up next year when our Mayoral Election will be, our municipal local elections. But thats on the table and several people have asked me that as well. And other people who have ran. It is very interesting when you do engage outside of the two stable parties. People in those parties dont appreciate it because you will take away votes. But too you challenge them with other people brought up on their ideas instead of just having that binary back and forth that we see so common in the media, whether its the debate or letters back and forth or newspaper online coverage. You can spin things. But i celebrate new york. Those are always very fascinating debates where you have a bunch of people on stage and different ideas. If it takes longer it takes longer. Its a very important question. Its not something that should be conveniently disseminated for everyones time benefit. But these are people we are giving a tremendous amount of power politically and monetarily through their budget. Host thanks for the call. The new Forward Party among those forming it and promoting it, andrew yang, david jolly former congressman and new Jersey Republican governor and e. P. A. Administrator. The numbers are on the bottom of your screen. Some of what the third party the Forward Party stands for in their opinion piece they wrote announcing the party they said this. From florida, good morning, sir. Caller im a retired army guy, a transplant from basically everywhere. I lived in 14 states but now i live in florida. And we have like two parties plus there is no party down here. So its about 30 are republicans, 30 are democrats, and about 40 are totally in between. We dont talk politics because we dont know who is in between. But i watch cspan which is probably the best channel to watch but i watch cnn, fox, cnbc. I think we need a third channel thats an independent channel. Host independent news channel . Caller yeah, an independent news channel. Youre the closest thing to an independent news channel but youre, you know, cspan and but youve got fox, cnbc, cnn. Theres no totally independent channel that can give you both sides and a third side. Host all right. Jim middletown, pennsylvania says yes there should be a Viable Third Party or more in this country. Caller we need something to happen because the two party system weve got is definitely not doing us any favors. My first vote was for ross perot so i thought there would be a need for another party. But we definitely need something to happen because the left and the right is tearing this country apart. And i mean to only have a third party theyre called independents. Youve got an independent vote, probably more people vote independent than probably republican or democrat. But democrats want to take our guns away. The guns have been here since the 60s. You could have a machine gun until may of 86 and now if you want to own and you can still own a machine gun. But it costs you 50,000 to own a transferrable machine gun. We had a gun range at my school and junior high we had gun club. Do i think that these 18yearolds should be able to buy guns . No. I think you should be 21, 22. But my first vote was for ross perot and we definitely know we need something. Something has got to change because this two party system is tearing this country apart. I know a bunch of conservative people where i li here i dont know very many people at all that voted for biden and like, they go tearing it to pieces both. What was so wrong about grabbing an election machine and making sure that they were good . Why cant we talk about that . They dont ever want to talk about that. So we need something to go on in this country. Ive got kids and grandkids. If i didnt have kids and grandkids i could care less about it. Host stanley in pennsylvania. A couple of comments on social media. Host good morning. All right. Well go to tom im sorry. I had the wrong line for you. Are you there . Well go to tom in new jersey. Caller i think im advocating for sort of the elimination of all these parties. I dont think we need more parties. Most of us are all independent and we choose the lesser evil. So we dont need democratic kind of should i think follow George Washington when he said this is whats really creating so much trouble. So say im not a member of any party. Host all right. We hear from jessica. Caller good morning. I just have a quick comment. I dont think that the parties are doing us any favor particularly since Citizens United was passed. Pu what i dont hear a lot about is rank choice voting. And im a big fan. That way everyone gets a buyin at some level to their candidate. Host do you have that there in maryland . Caller no, we dont. Host where have you heard it work before . Why are you a proponent of it . Caller well, ive just looked it up and ive read some about it. I know there are some states that do it not at the president ial level but it just makes sense to me to be able to vote for the person that you most want and then if you dont get that person the person that would be your second choice or your third choice for those people who its a little complicated but for those people who dont want to do that they could just pick one person. But that way if your third choice came in at least you would have bought in that much. Its not like youve lost. Host appreciate that. A couple political stories updated overnight. This is from reuters u. S. House Speaker Pelosi to visit asia. That trip getting under way late yesterday. An update from the white house on the president himself. Something about third parties, a third party or more needed in the u. S. , a Viable Third Party. Pittsburgh, pennsylvania. Caller good morning. You can have a discussion relating to whether or not we need a third party which would be great if it were going to actually happen and in a viable way. But we live in a completely rigged system. You have the Corporate Media being embedded with the National Security surveillance state. You have corporations have ch have become so dangerous to our democracy that they can simply deplatform independent news organizations, they can it just happened today with one america news. We should be boycotting the living hell out of corporations like verizon which are setting the standard for the evil that were dealing with. Everything is being rigged. Financial, social, military, were in war, were in one forever war after another. Having a third party is absolutely meaningless because when you lived when you exist in a corporate tie to tall taryn state which is rapidly developing in america, you are going to live in a situation where youre not going to get funded. President ial elections cost a billion dollars. Andrew yang is very much a socialist. This has nothing to do with creating an environment of civility. This is about disseminating changes that are going to increase host still there . We lost him. We go to derek in chicago. Caller good morning. Im on the shot so sure channel call number because he kind of stole a little bit of my thunder. I dont think it will make a difference. What we really need is Campaign Campaign finance, where the people get to donate the money because as long as it costs so much and they were able to donate the money to these parties, then theyre going to dictate. And its just that simple. So eventually if you had a third party they would buy in to that and they would be just like it is right now. Thats my comment. Host part of what the Forward Party founders say is this. Lets hear from james in buffalo, new york. James, make sure you mute your volume and then go ahead james, go ahead and mute your volume there. Caller yes, sir. Thank you, and i appreciate you taking my call. I think there should be a third party since the democrats are trying to turn the their party into a communist or socialist party. Why shouldnt you have a third party that could have that way they can sit there and run the country, they can run the country by voting for their own party. Theyre trying to turn the Democratic Party into a oneoff party. And its just a sad scenario that the man in office is running this country into the ground and they and the people that are behind the Democratic Party have not a clue. Everybody is losing everybody is losing their money that theyve saved so they can have a better return. Well, i dont know if youve seen it or not but 30 across the board people are losing their 401 k s. Its just a mess. Host san francisco, aj. Caller i really think that we dont need a third party. Just because historically third parties have always taken extreme positions. Even in this country. The green party, we have a problem with the Democratic Party being socialist. The third party answer would be a socialist party taking a for more extreme position. Or the reform party. Or George Wallace. Thats the legacy of additional parties. It forces people to go into these extra distant camps. Under the current system, i feel that we have this huge Big Tent Party where you can watch the republican Party Primaries where you see someone like a rand paul, ron paul. You can see a jeb bush represents a more establishment leaning. Someone like a donald trump. Thats kind of our system. At the end of the day only one person can win. And so i think that just for the sheer fact that we need to maintain and not be like europe where youve got a womens party and a socialist party and a green party, a labor party, a far right nationalist party. Host a couple of stories about divergent views within parties. This is from yahoo news. And the headline is i dont agree with her on anything. On third parties in the u. S. , sue is not sure. Tell us your thoughts. Caller yes, sir. Im not sure that we need to do something. We have sat here since donald trump and all the years became and watched what the Democratic Party has done. The Democratic Party has systemcly shredded our constitution. And you can see it playing out. They wont even protect the judges. If youre not a democrat well then youre going to go to jail. I mean, they are like a dictator. And you can see them lying. And i didnt know when trump was in newspapers and media and everything. We need some honest people. We have a beautiful country. Host ok. To david in florida. Caller i dont know, i wonder about this a lot. You reflected on cspan, you can see it every day, you have one line for the liberals, one line for the independents, and then you have one line for the mentally handicapped. They call in to complain about january 6th and the insurrection. You ask them what they think of it and they say its a sham, its all set up, its a big phony thing. Then you ask if theyve watched it and say no way. I dont want that. Let that sink in for a minute. Let that mentality just ponder that for a moment. Every time one of their Electoral College wonder boys gets into the white house, its happened twice in the past 20 years, they leave the economy in ruins. It was that way in 2008, it was that way in 2020, so the democrats come in, they have to Institute Programs to keep society from completely unravelling. And then they start whining about socialism, socialism. You know, its really just a state of mass insanity. Clearly one party is based on nothing but hate and division, and on january 6th they graduated to treason. Now theyre whining about the criminals who got prosecuted for spreading their feces and urine on the wall in the capitol while beating up cops while claiming to be patriots. Clearly these people are insane, its a cult and based on nothing but lies deceit and fiction. Host necked next up is john in new york. Caller i love this show. I think we need a party and leaders that have Honesty Integrity the best i want interest of the United States. The majority of people in the United States and who will enact the environmental improvements, the equality and justice, and safety improvements. We need but Christie Todd whitman is a disgraceful choice because she was responsible for thousands of people becoming ill after 9 11 as head of the e. P. A. She knowingly lied and misrepresented the Downtown Manhattan was safe to reenter when they had testing equipment at the e. P. A. Office on 57th street showing that the air was extremely toxic. The fact that she has reemerged as a public figure and that andrew yang chose her is clearly showing his terrible judgment. And that they think people have no idea that she did this, she should be either just shut up and disappear or pay for the crimes she committed against the American People after 9 11. Host you can weigh in via text. The number is on your screen. Heres one from Anthony Miller in new york. The headline why andrew yangs new third party is bound to fail. I want to scroll down a bit in the piece. In that piece he writes about that some historic views. In michigan we hear from patricia. Caller good morning. Host youre on the air go ahead. Caller thank you. There was a gentleman on a little while back. He stole my thunder. Until we get an honest media, this country is going to be destroyed. They lie every day. Listen to them. Cnn, nbc, they have a talking point. Collusion, collusion, collusion. Theyll go on with that. Every other day another talking point. Collusion, collusion, Something Else. They will destroy. Hello . Host were still here. Caller ok. Theyll go on and theyll destroy anybody that they hate. Host ok. To mj in richmond, virginia. Caller there is not going to be any changes until we have changes in the house and the senate. The convention of the states needs to go through. We need to have term lilts in the house and senate before any changes. If you get rid of them from being in there for all those years, then you will be able to stop lobbyists, stop all the money, stop all the back and forth thats going on. They go in, they do their time. That was what was supposed to happen. They werent supposed to get paid for the rest of their life, not have to worry about social security. They get free benefits. A lot of us American People work really hard, we dont get to leave our jobs and make 100, what is it 187,000 a year . So theyre locked in to whatever they get. And when that changes then the rest of the changes can happen. But until then, it isnt going to happen. You just need to look into the convention of the state and read up on all of that, and go back to our constitution of the United States. Host appreciate that. Bill is in albany, new york. Go ahead. Caller thank you. Ok. Im here. What i would like to bring up is that its a two party system, can work, and history has shown that. But of course corruption always comes into play through down through the years as we know. So it is good to have other types of branchs off of the both parties. You know, like when the tea party came in and brought some things to life as far as corruption is concerned. So heres the thing i think that we really need and it was pointed out in the last election. The states have to make the states have to change the voting law, the states are the ones the state legislatures change the way it is to vote. And what happened in the last election in four states, the governors went ahead and made a change because of covid, went ahead and made a change on the mailin votes without going through the legislature, which really made it unconstitutional for those four states. Now, im not taking the side of one party or another, im just saying that the laws the constitution needs to be followed. And if anybody wants, they can look that up and theyll see that in pennsylvania and dpae and arizona and the other state i forget that what happened was the governor i believe was democrat and the state was the legislature was republican. And the legislature did not get a say in how the votes should be handled. And it made the whole thing unconstitutional. Everything needs term limits, too. Host well get one more call from dave in new york. Caller that guys outrageous. Thats stupid. We need to change Citizens United, we need to chuck the originalist idea of the constitution, and two we need to stop the 40 year assault of the coke brothers buying the Republican Party. This is where were at. Now weve got trump. Isnt that wonderful. What we need is to get back to some common sense. We need to stop the jerry mandering. We need to stop republicans from owning little states. There are democrats in little states. Wyoming, all these others. Im sorry, ive got to go. Have a good day, sir. Host you have a good day as well. There is more ahead here on the program on washington journal coming up next well be joins by republican pollster and democratic strategist will be talking about political news of the day, campaign 2022 and more. Later in the program our landmark legislation series continues with the focus on the 2002 no child left behind law. The law was president george bushs educational policy achievement and one that changed the federal rule but it was ultimately rolled back. Wednesday morning with the upcoming Midterm Elections the Senate Judiciary Committee Hears from the department of justice and Cyber Security officials on threats to election workers. Then main republican senator susan kol ins and joe manchinen testified before the Senate Rules Committee about their bill on president ial election reform. On thursday morning, f. B. I. Director ray goes before the Senate Judiciary committee. The house is out this week while the Senate Remains in session one more week to debate a bill addressing energy needs, Climate Change, health care costs, and taxes. Watch this week live on the cspan networks. Head to cspan. Org for scheduling information or to stream video live or on demand any time. Cspan, your unfiltered view of government. Washington journal continues. Host well talk for the next 45 minutes or so we are joined by lauren managing partner at arena and jim hole bart. Welcome to washington journaled this morning. Guest good morning. Host let me ask about your organization. Youre a managing partner there. Guest arena is an organization that convenes, trains, and supports the next generation of Democratic Candidates and Campaign Staff so what were working on doing is building the bench of the next generation of democratic leaders. And also working on diversifying that so that theyre more representative of the Democratic Party as a whole and as our country as a whole. Because at the core of our belief is that if we run individuals who are more representative of our country and if we staff campaigns with individuals who are more representative of our country then we as democrats are more likely to win. Host what was it like recruiting candidates . Guest theres a high degree of energy and enthusiasm both in terms of recruiting candidates to run for office and individuals to work on campaigns. And particularly when it comes to recruiting folks to work on down ballot races. I think if you look at whats gone on politically this year particularly with things like the Dobbs Decision overturning roe, theres a recognition that what happens at the state and local level so profoundly affects individuals z lives, whether reproductive rights, Climate Change, and especially from young people theres an energy and enthusiasm to get involved, to make change and to do it at a level thats tangible that they can see and feel. Washington can feel really distant oftentimes, but working on a local race something close tore what theyre experiencing in their daytoday lives and we know from whats going on in the country that the outcome of these races is going to determine the rights and freedoms that individuals ejoy this year. Jim with Public Opinion strategies, clear theres a lot of enthusiasm on the republican side in terms of the candidates for congressional races. Guest definitely. It tends to be when a party is out of power you see more enthusiasm. Weve seen that going back the last couple midterm cycles. Democrats were fired up, 2010, 2014, republicans were fired up. And were seeing that here in 2022. Host do you think the dynamic changed in terms of the outlook has been that this looked like a change election for the house, certainly the economy is a drag on the democrats. Did that change at all this week with some of the news that came out this week . Guest i think this has been a good week for democrats but this has been a good week for the country as a whole for American People as a whole. If you look at the manchinschumer deal that came out in terms of the Inflation Reduction Act, this is going to be making massive policy shifts that are really good for the American People. A Huge Investment in clean energy, changes that are going to Lower Health Care costs for everyday americans, whether thats allowing medicare to negotiate for the cost of prescription drugs lowering drug costs for seniors, or whether thats the expacks expansions of obamacare premiums is lower for the average american family. In addition to that, raising the Corporate Tax and closing tax loopholes so youre seeing more money go into the government and actually able to provide services, we expect to be the outcome is a better economy, more money in peoples pocketbooks and a better outlook. When we think about the impacts that that will have in november, i think what this ultimately means is that people will see joe biden and democrats finally being able to deliver on the agenda that they promised in the 2020 election and i expect that that will pay dividends. Host and what do you think turned the corner for joe manchin to sign on to that legislation . Guest i think theres a sense of urgency on the part of democrats because theyre going to lose the house so they know that in order to have policy wins they need to do it now. I think the news that came out yesterday i believe on taxation is does all the things but taxes on people something joe biden promised not to do. Is it a political win . But more of a policy win. Its not going to change the shape of whats going to happen and it might make things harder for democrats because its going to represent a tax raise. Host the window is kind of closing to get things done for congress. Obviously for democrats to be able to notch this in their belts in the fall election. Guest first i would say this doesnt raise taxes on families earning less than 400,000. But what people have been wanting to see is congressional action. Now, theres been a failure of congressional action and thats largely been on account of the 50 republicans in the senate who have refused to take up measures that the majority of americans want to see, enacting the kind of change they want to see to better our economy, to move to a clean Energy Future. And my expectation is that that fundamentally this combination of this legislation finally seeing some real action out of washington on account of democrats combined with the real risks that are posed by extremism on the republican side as seen through things such as the Dobbs Decision, the direction of the Supreme Court and a whol wing of the party that fundamentally doesnt believe in free and Fair Elections will actually lead to a better than anticipated outcome for democrats come november. Were living in just unprecedented times and i dont think we can actually just take Lessons Learned from previous Midterm Election cycles and assume the exact same thing will happen this year. Lauren, democratic strategist and jim republican pollster joining us talking politics 2022. The final weeks of congress in some critical legislation ahead. Well get to calls in a moment. While the manchin mystery has been solved there was a headline yesterday in the wall street journal that says sin ma becomes a crucial vote. Talk about senator sin ma of arizona. Could she hold the trump card as it were in some of this debate . Guest she certainly has the potential to derail things if she wanted to. She is a crucial 50th vote. But im not sure how that is ultimately in her interest or in the interest of the party that she is a member of. Were ending the year, the first two years of the obama sorry biden term. People are wanting to see action coming out of congress. We finally have a real deal here and a limited window in which to pass it and i think and hope that she will ult patly realize that its in her interest but more importantly the interests of her constituents in arizona and the country as a whole to pass legislation on the issues that we were promising that we would act on. On issues like clean energy, on issues like lowering the cost of health care. Like eliminating tax loopholes. These are fundamentally important to the American People. And so i ult patly believe at the end of the day that we will be able to get her on board, that we will see historic piece of legislation pass. That will add to the list of historic legislation that the Biden Administration has already passed a massive covid relief bill, infrastructure bill that was finally able to get done, a massive investment just this past week, in the Semi Conductor industry in the United States to make investments in the u. S. To be competitive with china and bolster our National Security. This administration really is getting things done and im hopeful that senator cinema will be be a part of that program. Host will that resonate with voters . Guest i think the thing thats going to resonate most the news, the country is in recession. Were two straight reports of the economy in decline. Inflation is around 10 , joe bidens Approval Rating is in the 30s. You just cant outrun those types of political head winds with legislation. We see it over and over again. In 2018 republicans are say once voters learn more about tamp reform well be ok. With the economy in recession, with the president s approval in the low 30s, that is just not an environment where democrats are going to see any type of good news on election day. Host and lauren how do you respond to that in terms of we read a while ago the comments from dean, the president should say im a oneterm president. In other words, some democrats tells me have already sort of running away from the biden presidency. Guest what i think actually is interesting is if you dig into the numbers beyond President Bidens Approval Rating, the generic poll of would you prefer democrats or republicans in office shows democrats up. And thats not good news for republicans. So there might be some dissatisfaction with the president right now, mostly on account of failure to deliver on his agenda which is a result of republican obstructionism, there is a recognition over all in the country that in terms of getting us in the direction that we want to go, democrats are the party that are better equipped to do so. And more than that, that republicans are actually closing a fundamental posing a threat to our democracy at the moment. The number of republicans who at this point ultimately dont believe in free and Fair Elections are being open in the public about their intent to effectively obstruct the results of a free and fair 2024 president ial election given americans reason to have pause about fitting that party into power. Combine that with some of the decisions were seeing coming out of the Supreme Court and fears of what types of legislation we would see if we had republicans back in control in congress i dont think you can make predictions solely based on bidens Approval Ratings. And beyond that, when you look at the economy, its an interesting economy were in right now because while g. D. P. Yes growth has slowed at the same time were seeing the lowest unemployment rates that we have seen in years, having fully regained back all of the jobs that were lost in the pandemic. Our treasury secretary janet yellen said were not in a recession yet. And so the story remains to be written as to what will happen in november and after this week im feeling optimistic about whats going to happen for democrats. Host lauren mentioned the treasury secretary. The president said were not in a recession. Why are they saying that . Guest its just like lauren was saying were back to this. Look at what American People are feeling. The Consumer Index report came out, its historically low. When you look at the metrics, the economic metrics that we are seeing are the types that we have not seen since 1980. Point to a couple things, oh maybe picked up a point or two. Look at the overall data. Look at polling data not necessarily bidens Approval Rating but among voters is the economy Getting Better or worse. Overwhelmingly voters say the data that the economy is getting worse. We ask voters even before the report. You ask voters if they thought we were in a recession they said yes. What matters is voters perception. Voters think the economy is bad and theyre blaming democrats for that. Host i want to ask both in a moment what you think the final the hearing of the january 6 committee and the final report might mean in the 2022 elections. We do have calls waiting. I would love to hear from our viewers and listeners. Well go first to dave in cincinnati on the democrats line. David, youre first up. Caller good morning. I hope you dont cut me off before i can make my point. I would like to talk about the senate race in ohio. Ryans running a very Smart Campaign. His First Campaign ad talks about how he was against the obama trade deal. Similar to shared brown who runs in ohio against. And as far as vance one of the big things, define your opponent before they can define themselves. And ryan has run an ad which talks about vance setting up a nonprofit supposedly to help in ohio and it turned out he didnt use any money for that. He used it in his own campaign in the primary. Another one is on the internet where he talked about the far left saying women should stay with their abusive children for the state of abusive spouse for the benefit of their children. Host jim, the ohio senate race. Guest i think the reality is ohio is a red state. You have not seen a democrat win statewide in ohio since many, many cycles in the race particularly havent gotten close. There was a thought biden might run closely there, in 2020 he lost by eight points. Ultimately you are going to see the state revert to the party. I think vance is still very, very much the favorite in that race. Yeah, things look good here in july perhaps for ryan but what tends to happen in red states is they eventually revert to the means so to speak. In 2020 you saw in kansas, democrats get on this sugar high maybe we can compete in this state and then lose by 7, 8 points. Host lauren what are you seeing . Guest i dont think its unrealistic that ohio can send a democratic senator to washington because they had one in the form of brown. If you look at vances Campaign Funded by Silicon Valley billionaires, coming in without any government experience and radical views that are out of step with everyday ohioans and americans, i think theres a real race to be fought there. Tim ryan has a proven track record in congress, hes running a Smart Campaign and hes speaking to the issues that everyday ohioans care about. And i want to actually use this opportunity to get back to how the economy is going to play, pause ultimately republicans message has been the economy, the economy, inflation, inflation, but there have been no positive productive ideas of how to change that. All thats come out of washington is obstruction instead on the republican side. This week were going to see tim ryan voting on an historic piece of legislation that is actually going to work to alleviate some of that economic pressure that americans are feeling and i believe that that will resonate with voters. Guest i think it will too. Another example of tim ryan voting 100 with the president and the president s Approval Rating is about 35 . Thats a problem for him. Host to maine, good morning. Caller good morning. This is a question for lauren. You mentioned that you are recruiting people. What are the credentials of these people that you are recruiting . Guest great question. So when we look to recruit people, boats both to run but work on campaigns and training Campaign Staff were looking for individuals who are from the area where races are taking place, who have compelling reasons for wanting to be involved in politics, a solid personal narrative and looking for a new generation of leaders here. As we know if we look at washington the Democratic Party is ageing and its not actually reflective of the population of democrats as a whole across this country. In that arena we fundamentally believe its time to bring in a new Younger Generation of leaders eshgs rising up from their communities and can speak to what constituents want to see. So its kind of those ties to community, really compelling personal narrative, and the desire to actually make government work, whether thats at the local, state, or federal level. Thats what we look for both in candidates and people working on campaigns. Host i mentioned this earlier, jim your thoughts on how the january 6th hearings, the final report will play among voters in 2022. Guest i think what we saw in the virginia governors race in 2012 2021 voters are ready to move on. Again you look back at 2018 republicans thought that we could make this about pelosi and well stave off. It didnt work in 2018. In 2010, democrats thought we can just bring back george w. Bush. It didnt work for them. I dont think making the 2022 election about former President Trump is going to help democrats voters are focused on the here and now, especially now at a time when theyre really frustrated with how things are going. You see track numbers around 75 , only 15 thinking the country is going in the right direction. They want to hear whats going to happen to change that, not about things that happened. Host how much of an issue are the hearings, the january 6 hearings and eventual report that will come up . How much is that a big issue in 2022 for Democratic Candidates . Guest so i guess first i would question the very premise of the question because i think the purpose of the january 6th hearings isnt ultimately to shift electoral outcomes, its to get to the bottom of what was an attempted coup in the United States of america an attempt to undermine the results of a free and Fair Election in 2020. Those were terrifying images and terrifying moments of individuals scaling the walls of our capitol trying to prevent a certification of election results. And the reason it was so terrifying is because it struck at the core of whether there is still integrity in american democracy. And so when were looking at the ultimate results its getting to the truth of what happened because we believe that that fundamentally critical to preserving american democrat sis and the rule of law going forward. Now, if that truth ultimately benefits democrats, that would be wonderful. But i know that the party, in terms of the purpose of these hearings is to get to the bottom of things and also to make the message clear that there are still individuals in our government now beyond donald trump who fundamentally dont want to compete fairly in elections but want to skew the playing field, want to ignore results, and undermine democracy and the rule of law. And if we put those individuals in power, that will ultimately scuttle everything that we hold dear in our country. Host lets hear from jeffery on the republican line, north carolina. Good morning. Caller yes. Good morning. Thank you for taking my call. Host make sure that you mute your volume on your television there then go ahead with your comment. Caller thank you very much. Thank you. I would like to kind of elaborate a little bit on what ms. Lauren just touched base with about the january 6th situation, and comparing to your other guest how he responded to it. It is very important that how one side, the republicans which i take fair free election, is looking at it as thats not no big issue. Thats a major change in every aspect around how the world views america now, how they are dismissing such a dangerous, chaotic, at the direction and the edge on of donald trump actually said it and stated not having a free election or Fair Election, that was just something right now it is still to this day the problem happening host im going to let you go. A reminder call in on the line that reflects your political views. The numbers are on your screen. Fred in michigan, go ahead. Caller i would just like to state a couple of things. That bill that youre talking about thats going to be so good for the seniors and everything, one, aint that just ten and dont you have to wait until 2026 that kicks in and then this guy calls talking about these elections and republicans not wanting to be fair. How about when hillary and the democrats paid for a dirty doszier and smeared a guy for four years to begin with, with that . Host ok. Response from either on our callers comments. Guest sure. I think that the prescription drugs again i think that one thing to keep in mind and i think this is an important point made by that caller is that a lot of these things in the bill, whether youre for them or not, are going to take a while to be implemented. Host this is the bill agraed to by the president and joe manchin and senator schumer i should say. Guest its not instant action, not something viewers are going to be feeling before november. And health care is a priority. But until voters start to see their grocery prices coming down, until they start to see Energy Prices coming down to a more reasonable level, the democrats are doing a victory lap when they get gas below 5. Viewers want it to be back to 2. 50, 3 a gallon. Host lauren, the democrats, joe manchin calling this the Inflation Reduction Act, correct . Guest thats because the act is fundamentally intended to reduce inflation. And as much as republicans have called attention to this and complained about this over many months, they havent put forward legislation to solve the problem. Inflation ultimately results when demand exceeds supply so prices rides. And what this bill is intended to do and will start doing immediately is increasing supply in the economy by investing in infrastructure by investing in clean energy, and also cooling demand by doing things like raising the Corporate Tax rate and closing tax loopholes. So i do think benefits will start to be felt. But at a certain point you have to decide as a voter are you going to vote for the party that scomplanz about problems but ultimately doesnt want to put forth any solutions to sofl them but want to obstruct positive action or are you going to vote for the party that is actually going out there and making changes that will put more money in americans pockets that will prepare us for a clean Energy Future, that will make our country future, that will make our country safer and more prosperous. That is the choice that we have and it is a choice about whether you want to vote for a party that is invested in american democracy and rule of law or one that is invested in holding onto their own power. The last caller made an excellent point. Americas standing in the world depends on our ability to still have free and Fair Elections where every individual vote counts and you have one Party Viewing veering away from that, it is hard to see that that is the party of the future. Democrats democrats continue to believe that every problem can be solved with more Government Spending. The reason why we are in this, is because of the 1 trillion spending bill from 2021. Now the democrats are like, more spending will solve that. Republicans do not believe that. They believe the way to bring side prices down is not more spending. Host lauren baer is a managing partner and democratic strategist. We are talking politics. 2022 congressional politics. We welcome your calls and comments at 202 7488000 for democrats. Republicans, it is 202 7488001. Independent, 202 7488002. We will hear from charles in florida are the democrats line. Caller good morning. First time caller. I just want to say to the republican strategist, give us a better candidate. Ron desantis is a mini me of donald trump. He is not the one. We are in a position to where we are about votes and not substance. It is the same challenge for the young lady who is the democrat. Give us more than votes. Give us substance. I am working with two scientists are Global Warming and i have reached out to both republican and democrat offices and no one seems to be interested in technology that can save the planet because people are busy pushing their own private agendas. Host we will hear from our guests. Governor desantis is popular in florida and heavily favored for reelection. It would be difficult to get a candidate better than him. Host lauren baer, what are your thoughts . I think Governor Desantis is leaning into the culture war debate because he has very little in terms of substance or policy to improve the lives of floridians. What he is doing is polarizing the state of florida, polarizing our country. It is deeply upsetting to me as a floridian to see the way that he has done things like decimate our Public Schools and, the Public Schools that i attended, that enabled me to get an Ivy League Education and the way he is attacking the most vulnerable members of the florida community, members of the lgbtq community, desantis is very popular in the state but ultimately he is not proposing or enacting policies that are truly intended to improve individuals lives. He is running on a platform of fear and division and the lowest common denominator and that is ultimately bad for the state. I would agree that it is an uphill battle in the Gubernatorial Race in florida. I think the senate race between val demings and marco rubios want to watch closer. It is something that floridians will grow tired of and want to see real change that will benefit them. Host we will go to north carolina. Don on the independent line. Caller thank you for taking my call. One of the confusing and frustrating things for Many Americans including me is when we hear conflicting statements from one side that says there will be no tax increases for people over the 400,000 barrier and the other person says there will be tax increases. My question is for the republican strategist, can you give us a specific example where taxes will be increased for citizens under the 400,000 level and did i would ask the democratic strategist to respond to jim and tell us where he is right or wrong. Mr. Hobart that is a valid question. I joined the joint committee on taxes came out yesterday morning. Taxes will be raised all the way down to those making only 30,000 per year. That is the joint committee on taxation. That is not partisan. That is what they said and i have every reason to relieve believe the report. Ms. Baer it is a false statement. But the bill does in terms of taxation is raise taxes on corporations to make sure that they are paying their fair share and close tax loopholes that have enabled the wealthiest among us to get away with paying less in taxes. At the same time what the bill does is it increases funding to the Internal Revenue service so that they can make sure that individuals who have been avoiding paying their taxes actually pay that money and that money goes into the government. Joe biden made a promise that taxes would not go up on individuals who are earning less than 400,000 per year. He is sticking to that promise and that is not happening in this bill. Host lets hear from kathy on the republican line in maryland. You are on the air. Caller good morning. I have a couple of comments. I think the majority of americans are feeling the pain of every time they go to the Grocery Store like i did yesterday and have to pay six dollars for a jar of mayonnaise and go to the gas pump and Something Else nobody is talking about now because it is july, almost august, heating oil for the winter. I just called the other day to find out the price and it will cost 4. 59 per gallon for my heating oil that i heat my home with in the winter and it will cost 1100 to fill up my tank. What is President Biden going to do about that . How can Senior Citizens pay that much money to heat their homes . Host kathy, what did it because last winter for your heating oil . Caller it was approximately 289. Host lauren baer, your comment . Ms. Baer this is exactly what this bill being passed is intended to help alleviate. That pressure you feel is being felt by individuals around the country. I feel it in my own family as a mother of two young girls having to go to the Grocery Store every week. What biden is doing when it comes to energy costs, when it comes to gas prices, he already took action earlier this year to open up a great deal of gas from the Strategic Petroleum reserve to help drive down gas prices and what this bill will do when it comes to heating costs and energy costs is make an historic investment in the transition to clean energy so that we are less dependent on limited and expensive fossil fuels. If we will see prosperity and Economic Security for americans in the future, we have to stop being so tied to fluctuation in oil prices and move to a cleaner Energy Future and that is where the bill is moving us. Host jim hobart, is this a gain for oil exporters, producers in this country in terms of what is in the bill for fossil fuels . Mr. Hobart when you look at it, maybe biden is making a couple of decent steps in this bill. The reality is since the moment he took office he has done things to limit them domestic exploration limit domestic explanation for oil and gas. The Keystone Pipeline was supported by 66 of voters. He will not approve it. When you ask why gas prices are high, this has been the intention of the Biden Administration. They want to limit domestic oil and energy production. That is why you have them going to saudi arabia to ask for more oil instead of here in america. Host to sacramento, john on the democrats line. Go ahead. Caller good morning. This republican guy sounds just like the rest of the republicans. He is supposed to be a strategist but he sounds like a regular republican, the ones getting on the phone with all of these talking points. They do not know what they want. All they are doing is trying to keep others down. I used to look at these third world countries and wonder, there are so many people in the country but they are so little of them doing good. Come to find out, most of these countries are ran by right wing people, the ones who want to keep people oppressed. That is the Republican Party. Host jim hobart, as a republican, do you consider yourself right wing . Mr. Hobart certainly right of center. I am a conservative and i believe the best way to find solutions for the country, this is a fundamental disconnect between republicans and democrats. Republicans believe that Less Government is the way out of the problems that we are having right now, that investing in the private sector. Democrats believe that another spending bill, that giving people subsidies to buy electric cars is the way out of this. It is a disagreement between the two parties. Host houston, texas, nancy on the independent line. Good morning. Caller good morning. This woman you have on there, has she been to the Grocery Store lately . Has she put gas in her car . Has she taught to the American People has she talked to the American People . Has she looked at the poll numbers . She says we are not in a recession. Are you kidding me . She is a joke. Host lauren, you talked about going to the Grocery Store. Any further comments you would like to elaborate on . Ms. Baer i feel this in the same way other americans feel it and i am acutely aware that Many Americans feel this in a significantly worse way than i do. When it comes to my politics, that is the very reason that im supporting a party that is choosing to do something about it. Jim is saying that the republican solution to the problem is Less Government and allowing markets to solve the problem. That did not work. That has not worked. If we are going to solve it on its own, we will be sitting pretty but we are not. Democrats are the only party that is actually actively investing in solutions that will ease the pressure on americans pocketbooks right now, that will bring inflation down, that will help americans with struggling healthcare costs, that will put more money in peoples pocketbooks. At the same time, it will deal with some of the bigger issues that are affecting people across the country. If you look at the other news this week, historic flooding in kentucky, wildfires in california, we are far past the point in time where we can say that Climate Changes in real. Climate change is not real. That is having a profound impact on livelihoods as well and what this bill will do is make the single largest investment in combating Climate Change and ensuring that we have a safe and Healthy Planet for all of us and our children and grandchildren to live in long into the future. What i can say is we are fundamentally feeling the same hurt. The difference is we are the party that is choosing to do something about it. Host another notable political story this past week, the same day appearances, the first since the inauguration of former President Trump and Vice President pence speaking to another conservative group, the young americas foundation. I will ask both of you what you think the role is in 2022, what you see is potentially the role for former President Trump and the former Vice President mike pence . Mr. Hobart when you look at republican voters, former President Trump is much more popular than Vice President pence. There is still no bigger votemotivator among republican voters, especially republican primary voters than President Trump. Mike pence is he has been wanting to run for president for a long time. He has every right to do that. Right now President Trump is still more popular in the party than pence so he will have more of an impact in the Midterm Election. Host lauren baer, your thoughts on what we saw last week with the former Vice President in washington. Where do they stand . Ms. Baer i would like nothing more than for former President Trump to try to play a prominent role in the 2022 elections because it will be a constant reminder to the American People of the chaos and the disorder, the erosion of American Values and trust that occurred during his administration. There was a really resounding rebuke to his leadership in the 2020 election. A punctuation point on that when he tried to undermine the results of that election and lead a violent coup to undermine those results and retain power. If republicans want him to be the face of their party, that kind of extremism, that kind of disrespect for democracy and the rule of law, then in my opinion, go for it because that will ultimately benefit the party that is actually respecting the rule of law and democracy and the fundamental values of our country. Host jim, i want to ask you about some of the candidates that the former president supported and opposed. Three more republican teachers face primary election jurors. Peter meyer of michigan and dan newhouse of Washington State. Their primaries are coming up tuesday. In general, how has the former president s endorsement been faring for those members . Mr. Hobart for the president s endorsement record in senate races, his endorsement record in governors races are not as successful. Those three members of congress in particular, all three of them could win. There have been other states where someone who voted for impeachment lost. But in Washington State with peter meyer, you are seeing instances where you can see all three of those republicans win. Host a number of states having their primaries. Michigan, Washington State, and arizona on tuesday. North carolina, lets hear from neil on the republican line. Caller good morning. I have a problem with the democrats trying to force us into electric cars when we really do not have the infrastructure, the charging stations, anything like that. It looks like the Inflation Reduction Act that they passed recently seems to help with the infrastructure but also with the amount of money spending on infrastructure to be built, we will have a big problem with even more inflation. We are in a recession right now, no matter how the democrats try to spin it. We are in a recession and it will get worse and the money they will print for the infrastructure will get worse and it will take forever for them to build it. They really have to brush up on their economic skills. Host lauren baer, do you want to comment . Ms. Baer analysis has shown that the Inflation Reduction Act will reduce the federal deficit over time but it is making historic investments in clean energy and things like electric vehicles that would make them more accessible to everyday americans. That means not only investing in building out the infrastructure and things like charging stations to make it easier to own an electric car and actually drive want to go about your life, but tax breaks to americans in lower income boxes brackets for purchasing these vehicles and making the transition to a type of transportation that will ultimately be not only less expensive, but better for the planet. What i would say to the caller is that he raises a good point about there being a lack of infrastructure and that is exactly the reason why we are making that investment now because if we do not start, it will never get better. Host jim, are you skeptical of the deficit reduction qualities of this legislation . Mr. Hobart i think that when you look at injecting more and more Government Spending into the economy, i am skeptical that it is actually going to bring the deficit down. We have heard that before. I do not think that the role of the federal government is giving people money to buy certain types of cars. I think you will see voters react to that. Voters do not want money to buy a certain type of car. Instead, they want money four strategies that will bring prices down. Instead of looking at ways to bring gas prices down, democrats are shifting to try to get voters to use less gas. Voters prefer the alternative. Host nancy in nantucket, massachusetts. Democrat mike democrat line. Caller good morning. I have locked cspan for many years and have never called in and 99 of the time i agree with the person like yourself who leads and guides people when they call in. A gentleman called in on the republican line a few callers ago and he did not focus his comments in the expected republican way and you chastised him for calling in on the republican line because he put forth a little bit more of a democratic view. When you chastised him, i felt very uncomfortable because and i do understand that some people do use that in order to get in and that is not ok but this gentleman just happened to have a different view. I am a person who, although i am a democrat and 99 of the time will vote democrat, do not always agree with the democrats and i may call in and agree with the republican person making a presentation. I felt that that is not your job to tell people you have to always think like a democrat. You can never take a republican view. Host your criticism is well received. We try to manage the line so we make sure people call on the lines that best reflect but i appreciate your call. Lets get to sean in columbia, maryland. Republican line. Caller thanks for taking my call. I am just an average american who gets up and goes to work and minds his own business. I keep track of both sides, the democrats and republicans. You can sell me on 4. 50 of gas and the only Energy Policy is to take more from the Strategic Reserve to keep the price down. You cannot sell me on my grocery bill being double what it was two years ago. You cannot sell me on the democrat plan when you have a foreign nation telling one of our congresswomen, the head of our house, you cannot land in taiwan. We are currently a laughingstock of the world and i think that if the republicans run on the platform of trump, they will remember what the price of gas was, they will member they will remember the putin economy. You guys try to sell something on fear out of what will happen to the environment, there were floods 40 or 50 years ago. One that i lived through. This whole thing on bringing up one terrible storm after another and claiming that this is the only way that we can survive, im sorry. I have to survive every day by filling up my tank and my family. Host a couple of things. Do you want to respond . Ms. Baer people like to criticize President Biden for the increase in gas prices but not give him credit for the fact that gas prices have decreased week over week for the past six weeks, that we are making investments right now to move us toward Lower Energy Costs not only in the nature in the immediate term come about the longterm as well. What i want to respond to, from a perspective of someone who served for six years in the Obama Administration in the senior Foreign Policy position is the notion of americas standing in the world and our National Security. When given the opportunity this past week to vote on a Semi Conductor bill that would make historic investments in the u. S. Semi conductor industry or to remain competitive with china in order to bulk up our National Security, republicans overwhelmingly out of spite and against National Interests decided to vote no. I have for years worked in a position where it was my responsibility to look outward at other countries around the world and raise flags, signs of democratic decline. One of the things that has been most frightening to me is seeing those signs in our country today with the way that republicans are attacking the integrity of elections, of free and fair press, demonizing minorities. These are a fundamental threat to american democracy and they are also a threat to our standing in the world. At a base level, i have a disagreement with our caller as to which party and which type of leadership will ultimately make america more safe and prosperous and improve our standing. Host we have a few more calls. We will go to lewis in the Nations Capital on the independent line. Caller hello. I thought cspan was just informing but i have experienced where you get two people on the air and they are just giving opinions. They are talking in general. They are not being specific. The americans that have to go through what they are doing every day, they are looking at what it is costing them right now. People eat in the short term. They are just looking at how things are going to get better today. When you hear these people, it is almost like they are talking about a history of before or a proposal of what is coming up. Host look ahead to 2022. If republicans take the house, what do you think their platform is . What are they pushing for the most . Mr. Hobart they would look down to bring look to bring down the cost of energy, bring down the tax burden on american families, and do things to hopefully bring prices down. What is very clear is democrats control the presidency, congress, and the senate. That is not working. The voters are unhappy. There is no doubt about that. If we have a republican check and balance to President Bidens policy and the house and the senate, that will be a good thing. Host lauren baer, assuming the same thing, that the republicans take the house, how difficult does that make it for President Biden to get things done on his agenda . Ms. Baer what i want to call attention to first is the idea of what republicans do if they were in power because i think we actually need to look to what they have done recently when they held power as an indication and that is not lower the tax burden on everyday americans. There was a massive tax giveaway to the wealthiest americans, those earning the most money, creating historic inequalities, making it harder for people to deal with things like inflation and tackle economic downturn. It is overseeing an economy where there were historic job losses when democrats have overseen historic job gains. I do not think we can fundamentally believe that republicans, if they gain power, will behave in a way differently than they behaved in the past. The way they behaved his massive giveaways for the most fortunate among us while turning a blind eye to the middle class and the working class. It will certainly be significantly more challenging for President Biden if he does not retain control of the house and the senate and conversely, it would be significantly easier for President Biden to make good on some of his Campaign Promises if democrats increase their majority in the house, if they have more than a 51 vote majority in the senate. My message to voters is if you want to see good on bidens Campaign Promises, then we need to lean in and give democrats the majority that they actually need to get things done in congress. Host one more call. Nicholas in pennsylvania, democrats line. Caller good morning. Thank you for taking my call. The first thing i would like to say to this republican is he believes in a smaller government. All republicans do is go after American Peoples freedoms. They say Less Government but they attack unions. They go after reducing the people that vote. They want to reduce who you love, who you marry. They want to stop women from having a choice over their own body. This is what they believe in Less Government. Under george bush, they believed Less Government but they created the homeland security, a new branch of government. Donald trump created a Space Program or star wars or whatever it is. All these things they claim, but it is not true and as far as electric cars are concerned, jimmy carter put solar panels on the white house back in the 1980s. Reagan took them down. We should be off of oil. We constantly have to deal with the middle east on oil and as far as infrastructure is concerned, if you want to talk about electric cars, joe biden needs to buddy up with elon musk. Host i will give jim hobart the last word on this. Mr. Hobart i would be very careful bringing up jimmy carter given that that is what the Joe Biden Biden presidency is currently looking like. Host lauren baer . Ms. Baer i think our last color actually ends on a good point because it is well served for democrats to remind americans that although republicans talk a good talk when it comes to freedom, ultimately what they try to do is restrict the freedom of americans in ways that it matters most. You need look only at the Dobbs Decision that will restrict the fundamental reproductive freedom of millions of american women and the Supreme Court indicating that they want to go after individuals right to contraception, the right to choose their own partners, the right to marry, to understand that the Republican Party is not the party of freedom right now. It is the party that is choosing to control particularly how women get to choose to live and exercise their own lives in this country. There is a very stark choice in november and what it ultimately comes down to and voters will recognize that choice and vote for the party that ultimately believes in giving them the right to live their own lives with dignity and respect. Host lauren baer is a democratic strategist and jim hobart also a strategist and a partner at the Public Opinion strategies. Thanks to both of you for joining us this morning. Ahead here on washington journal, our landmark legislation series continues with a look at the 2002 no child left behind law. The discussion with Frederick Hess of the American Enterprise institute and Carolyn Heinrich. Check out this clip from republican john boehner and democrat George Miller on this show back in december 2001 as the house was getting ready to consider the no child left behind act. [video clip] what is in this legislation . Two things in this legislation. The money to help School Districts and states try to address the problems of educating poor and minority children in this country and they are very serious rules on accountability about how you will spend that money and the results we will expect from the expenditure of that money and that is different from the way we have run the program over the last 30 years. In 1965, president johnson wanted to address the issue of the education of poor children in this country, which was the right thing to do and it is today and put a lot of money on the table but we never really got around to the second part of the equation which was the education of the children. The intent of the act was to close the gap between rich and poor children, majority and minority children and that gap has not in any significant way closed in terms of educational achievement. It will still measure whether or not School Districts and states in fact closed that gap between those two groups of children. How do you are doing what they should be doing and at what point does it become too much washing to control and too little local control . That was the delicate balance that we had to find as we moved this legislation through. The president started this in the Campaign Last year and his first full day in office. It is a push of requiring testing in grades three through eight and reading and math and making sure that those test scores, that information was public data for parents, community leaders, School Board Members and to make sure the information was just aggravated by subgroup. White students, minority students, low income students, disabled students, so people would see what is happening in their local schools. 80 of those parents with schoolage children think their kids go to great schools. They dont. For the first time we will have objective data by which to help children who need help, to help principals and teachers in terms of identifying where the problems are. Is it to your curriculum . Is it the teacher . Is it the system they are using . This information is the most critical part of the bill because it is empowering people to take action in their communities. Host that was republican john boehner and democrat George Miller of california on the show back in december 2001 as the house was getting set to take up the no child left behind act. It was president george w. Bush s first signature educational and primary signature educational policy achievement, one that changed the federal role in Public Education but was ultimately roll back. Here on our legislative series joining us this morning for this last hour, we are joined by Carolyn Heinrich who is a professor of leadership and policy at Vanderbilt Universitys Peabody College and Frederick Hess who is studies director at the American Enterprise institute. Both of you, how does this legislation, the no child left behind law fit into the category of landmark legislation . Carolyn heinrich, we will start with you. Ms. Heinrich it really shaped educational practice at many levels. It was a law that came out of work that was already being done in the state to try to reckon with the fact that when we looked at our students performance, we were not measuring up to our peers in other countries and there was concern about some groups falling further behind. Not only at the federal level but states had already been looking at things we could do to change the circumstances. As we know, george w. Bush was president and much of what came to be part of no child left behind reflected things that were being done in texas as well as other places and it really did, for more than a decade, shaped what was happening at the local level. Host rick, as part of his platform, george w. Bush ran on passing a law like this. Changes happened with the law. We will get into that. Tell us how it was received at the time in terms of the policy changes it made. Mr. Hess it was modeled on what they did in texas. It was a bipartisan effort over 10 or 12 years. No child left behind, think of it as the high point of this School Reform coalition that took shape in the early 1980s. It really came to fruition in the clinton, bush, and obama years and has largely unraveled. No child left behind did a lot of different stuff. It is one of those big fat laws with 100 pages but it did three main things. Back in the late 1960s after that initial clip of them talking about it, at the time they referenced lyndon b. Johnsons great society. Back in the late 1960s, robert kennedy, a senator from new york, asked the commissioner of education how will we know if this stuff is doing any good. He shrugged and said, we do not have any way to know. The big thing that no child left behind did was it said that if states wanted their title i dollars, they had to have standards and test kids regularly from gates grades three to eight in reading and math and once in middle school and high school in science and report this information. This is why today we know some of the consequences that the School Closures during cold had during covid had. It also did two other big things that were more problematic. It required states to say whether schools were making adequate yearly progress, whether they were doing ok. If they failed to make adequate yearly progress, the third thing it did was it came up with a federal string of intervention that states had to do. There was little evidence that we knew whether any of this would actually work and it created a bunch of problems. That transparency that it created was hugely significant and still is 20 years on. Host Carolyn Heinrich, what do you think of the no child left behind act . Where do you think it went wrong . Ms. Heinrich rick made a really important point in that the testbased accountability as we describe it was a central part of the law. Requiring us to test students from three to eight grade and once in high school did give us really Important Information on how kids were doing. Another important part was to also look at how subgroups of children who we were most concerned with were being left behind, part of the name of the law, were doing relative to their peers and to ensure that we were working hard to put the best resources in helping those students who were most behind and meet the standards being set. That is an important part that continues on into educational practice and policy today. However, and rick alluded to the fact that there were things that did not go well and he pointed out that this system created essentially specific measures for us to judge whether or not students were making adequate yearly progress. This was defined by proficiency rates. The federal government had set targets for achieving proficiency that moved each year. The other kind of complicated part of it was that states started in different places with their own benchmarking of where they were relative to the progress and how that actually turned into standards within each state for schools and students to meet. The remedies, for example, rick mentioned that if a school for at least three years in a row failed to make adequate yearly progress, then these consequences, the federal interventions that were required, had to be implemented. There were two main things that the schools required that the schools were required to do. The students in the schools that were identified as not making adequate progress, those students could either choose to go to another school within the district, so they may have to be bused to another school, or they could receive supplemental educational services. Those services were essentially very much like tutoring but they had to be outside of school and were required with the exception of some waivers to be provided by providers that could be nonprofit, forprofit providers outside of the School System itself. If schools are failing students during the day, why would they do better in providing Supplemental Education Services . Schools and states were expected to manage this market for how services would be delivered and ended up being far more complicated and requiring a lot more capacity than schools and states had time or resources to invest in. There was a lot of practices that were ineffective and also for some of the biggest School Districts, i was studying this in the field with some of the biggest School Districts in the nation when it was happening, some of the School Districts were overwhelmed each year. More and more of their schools came under these consequences and they had title i fund budgets that did not have enough to spread those resources out so people got enough so kids got enough of those tutoring hours. The market would have wideranging providers. It was not well monitored. It was supposed to be monitored by states. States were supposed to be identifying which providers with the schools, which providers were effective and which were not but there really was not capacity or a system set up to do this. We did some of that work funded by the education sciences. It really reflected what we see often in our markets. There are some providers doing well. Some are doing poorly. School districts without Additional Support were having a long time making the system work well for kids. Host here on washington journal, we are doing the last of our landmark legislation series on this sunday morning. We are talking about the no child left behind act which was signed into law in 2002. Our guests are Carolyn Heinrich, a professor at Vanderbilt Universitys Peabody College and rick hess who is the education policies director at the American Enterprise institute. We want to remind viewers the process of this law in terms of it came into effect, signed by president bush in 2002. It was approved by the house and senate in december of 2001. It is legislation that established standardized testing requirements for federally funded schools. It defined ways schools could improve the educational experience, it established mechanisms to improve low performing schools and students at low performing schools were allowed to transfer to other schools. It also establishes new standards for teachers. Rick, what do you think the legacy of the nclb is . Mr. Hess i think it is big. It really is a landmark law in a couple of ways. It really launched a shift in the Republican Party. Part of the debate is playing out today between the trump wing and the mitt romney wing of the problem of the party. No child left behind is a law that bill clinton wanted to pass. In 1994 clinton proposed having states test kids once an elementary, once in middle, once in high school and reading and math and he got so much blowback from the education establishment in the union, that they wound up doing something called the improving americas schools act which was voluntary money. By the time you get to 2001, you actually had huge frustration on the left in the form of ted kennedy and George Miller who were saying we are not sure that these federal dollars are actually making a difference and they really wanted washington to step up. On the right, george bush on this program of compassionate conservatism, one of the things that republicans needed to do by the end of the 1990s was reposition the party by trying to convince americans that they were sincere about opportunities and that it was not lipservice. What you have was real meetings. On the left it was ted kennedy standing up to the educational establishment and the unions. On the right, it was inviting washington into education policy. It was explicitly racebased in the way it would break down subgroups, in the way it was tracking whether or not schools were performing. It really set expectations that washington was going to tell states you have to have standards, you have to support schools. As this played out, because the law was spasmodically designed, it is good to take a snapshot but the loss of 100 of kids will be proficient by 2014. That is like saying we will eliminate 100 of crime by 2028. It is not a serious goal. It is an aspiration. The closer you got to 2014, the more and more schools were identified as failing. By 2010 and 2011, well over half the nations schools were labeled feeling under no child left behind. They were identified for remedies with all the problems that ensued. One of the things that happened was the moment a partisan Group Agreement gave us no child left behind, 89 votes in the senate almost 400 votes in the house wound up giving rise to a bipartisan backlash against federal leadership of education. To the legacy of nclb, it shows the ways in which we have set a new platform for federal involvement with transparency around achievement, testing, the notion that there is a significant federal loan but also set the table for so much of the blowback we saw against common core, frustration about federal intervention in education, what became the feedback for 2015 as we scale back nclb. When we talk about education policy in america today, we are still living in a world that nclb created. Host we will talk about the followup legislation, the every Student Succeeds act. Lets hear from our callers. 202 7488000 is the line for east and central time zones. 202 7488001 for mountain and specific. Mountain and pacific. Lets listen to the words of president george w. Bush on the day of the signing of the legislation in january 2002 talking about transparency in education. Here is what he said. [video clip] we want to make sure no child left behind. Every child must learn to read and add and subtract. [applause] in return for federal dollars, we are asking states to design accountability systems to show parents and teachers whether or not children can read and write and add and subtract in grades three through eight. The fundamental principle of this bill is that every child can learn, we expect every child to learn, and you must show us whether or not every child is learning. [applause] host Carolyn Heinrich, how did states do in responding to the president s call in return for federal dollars, you have to do all of these things . Ms. Heinrich states did take on the responsibilities for determining how it would be implemented, determining what the standards within states would be, how were they going to help schools move toward the proficiency standards that were set at the federal level. As rick mentioned, there were impossible standards where everyone was supposed to be proficient by 2014. Research points to the fact that there was additional state and local spending by the law and there were more investments in trying to retain quality teachers. There was the whole investment in the infrastructure needed for the systematic testing of students. It has also been welldocumented that in some respects it was interpreted as an underfunded mandate. The money that had to be used for implementation came from title i. Title i money might be taken for other purposes. As rick mentioned, as more schools come as the standards ratcheted up, became subject to the consequences of the interventions. It became unsustainable. That is when we saw School Districts requesting waivers from the provisions as more and more schools came under the responsibility for providing Supplemental Services or transfers. It was not working. The other thing that is welldocumented is that this is something that is not specific to education, but when you set a target, people do Everything Possible to reach it regardless of whether it is bringing about the kind of change we want. Something that is called hitting the target but missing the point. This starts to happen under the testbased accountability system. We saw systematic cheating to achieve standards. We saw perversions in the provision of interventions. I was in texas for part of the time and working with the legislature because they were provided with services that were going around signing up parents to give their students these services and never delivering the services and there were not provisions to hold those providers accountable. They were not actually there werent any resources to fully monitor this expansive market. There were a number of ways in which it started to unravel and it was not doing what we had hoped it would do. It is also important to point out, testbased accountability has been somewhat controversial as rick pointed out. Part of it relates to how we use that information. When students are being tested in two particular subjects, math and reading, which we were held accountable, schools were held accountable under no child left behind, they start to do every thing they can to make sure they are achieving those harder to reach standards. That is where people feel like it is out of their control to reach it, that is when we see that breakdown. Host 13 years after the law after the bill was signed into law, the every Student Succeeds act was passed. We will talk about that and i want to talk about what the education scene was like and the politics behind that. We have calls for our guests on the no child left behind act, the law that was signed into law in 2002. It is part of our landmark legislative series. We will go to anthony in detroit, michigan. Good morning. Good morning. It seemed like it was way too many standardized tests. They did extracurriculars and tried to push this science, technology, and math. For english, they tried to teach everyone how to write a five paragraph essay. Not everything you write will be a five paragraph essay. I understand they were trying to establish measurable objectives for achievement but we had limited English Proficiency. Our president , i do not know how he could improve English Proficiency for students. Host rick, would you like to respond . Mr. Hess it is a great point. When you set targets in complex areas, you tend to distort behavior. If utility School District if you tell a School District that you will be judged on whether you are making adequate progress are not, we saw School Districts shifting time away from other activities, away from physics, the arts, and giving kids more reading and more math. Today, we still see this play out. Because the focus was on getting kids to proficiency, you saw them shifting away from the focus on gifted programs or advanced instruction and moving into making sure they are getting kids over the bar. One big problem when the xray that we talked about with nclb i think it was important and essential. It sounds like caroline is saying something similar. But when you lifted up, you create real problems. Part of the distressed that you see in the public part of the distrust that you see in the public is what the color identifies what the caller identifies. No child left behind on the required kids take one test per year in the spring. Only required kids to take one test per year in the spring. Whether your school will be identified as a good school or school, schools really ramped up all the other testing to make sure that kids were ready for that test, to identify which kids were not over the bar yet. What happened and we saw this by 2013, 2014, even the Obama White House was sharing data from the council of city School Districts pointing out the extraordinary amount of testing that had grown up around what was supposed to be a once per year assessment. Host lets go to carl in virginia. Good morning. Caller hello. I was born in 1998. I graduated in 2017. This was my life in pennsylvania. You make a great point. I did not know it was supposed to be one test because when it came to the npa, they were developed and written by pearson. Then we had the keystones given to us in high school. It is this runaway testing. We felt like there was a revolutionary year. What are we going to have this year . What tests will we have to take this year . It really got crazy. You made a good point about gifted education. I was gifted. I went through that program. That fizzled out in high school. From a student perspective, this was an incredibly confusing, stressful because we knew we would have to take all these tests and they took a while. My question is, because i have been out of the system for five years, where does it stand today . Our students taking as many tests or have they abated whether through purpose for because they do not have the money . Host great question. Ms. Heinrich you are pointing out this focus on benchmark testing. You needed to get over the bar to be proficient. You may have been subjected to even more testing than your peers. I mentioned i was in texas. There has been some pulling back on the excessive additional testing. At the time my kids were in high school and they had 14 to 15 different tests they take each year in addition to that and the benchmark testing. There was legislation that happened that rick perry signed to ratchet that back down to five tests. At the time of no child left behind, there was some pulling back of the extensive testing. Part of the reason it has been necessary to do so is teachers also. Right now we are looking at a serious Teacher Shortage and teachers were also posing back pushing back. This was affecting what would be taught in the classroom, how much time would be spent inmy se of teaching them how if they didnt know the answer, what would be the best approach of guessing that answer on the standardized test. Thats not really how they want to spend their time practicing. Host those kind of stories, those set the scene for the repeal of some of nclb . I think thats exactly right. Some of the viewers may recall huge fights around the common courts. The common core was actually the stepchild of no child left behind. What no child left behind is it said we are knocking to tell you what standards to adopt, we are knocking to tell you what tests, you just have to have standards. So if you are a governor, there was a big incentive to choose easier standards and to set a low bar and kick the can because you didnt have to be at 100 of 2014. What happened was you saw a lot of states opted for the politically more attractive course setting the bar where they could say kids are doing well. There were skepticism among folks like ted kennedy who said this was not what we attend intended. The push for the common core was the idea the states should adopt the same standards in reading and math and then that way schools will be on 11 playing field. Once you get there the whole genius of the no child left behind design was every state was allowed to go its own way. Once you get into common core you have to choose whats the right waited to this, whats cannot go and those recommended. This all blew up into a national fight. Folks on the left who are worried about too much testing and being too intrusive with teachers. On the right you had people lashing out, big foundations and politicians and d. C. Trying to dictate to their schools and interfere, so that really let a firestorm of pushback against testing and standards and thats what gave rise to the push. Host the act in 2015 made annual standardized testing continued it continued annualized standardized testing. Under that law, it required an indicator of accountability. English proficiency, High School Graduation rates and a choice of the state to set new standards for students with disabilities. Lets hear from albany, georgia who is a teacher and trainer. Caller good morning. This is such a timely topic especially because another couple of weeks begins the new school year for teachers and students. The impact of courses the reckoning we are having right now of the 2002 law no child left behind. As you stated, president obama came in and then created the emphasis of trying to i think bridge the gap of a movement to try and abate to the decline in proficiencies. I think the larger point for this is a society for right now having 30 to 40 of Teachers First to five year teachers who are knocking to be coming back. We are in a bind with regard to Teacher Education and retainment of teachers. And in do part due to the fact i think we have lost the value and the foundational construct of this is a profession. Most of our teachers right now are paid 39,000 for entrylevel positions who must be Board Certified and have a masters. They are not able to come to the classroom with just ba degrees. Thats not the profession we have. We have a highly educated profession. Talking about the charger and choice, that really was part of this no child left behind. We are really talking about an ideology whereby we were using the word reform and standards and common core that actually was about changing the Public Schools fundamental investment. Where those funds were initially , you cannot sustain taking money from title i programs but to get to the larger point, we are right now facing a situation where in 1991, i think it was minnesota the became the first state that legalized the socalled reform which was the word Charter School that came about the l. A. Board, the largest Second District in the nation. Host what is your question for our guests . Caller how do you see that the new construct where parents now most of our children, a 90 percent of children are in the public School System, we have 6 to 10 in something thats charter or voucher or opportunity scholarship and these things still do not create the closure that we are talking about. Host if you would like to respond. Ms. Heinrich there was a lot in there. Many points made about where we are today and i think one thing i heard come through in multiple ways is the concern about resources for really serving our Public School students well. In tennessee we are having a pretty big debate about the governors plan to push more Charter Schools and having vouchers. It is a complicated debate, but the big concern is whether or not in the way that its implemented does that take resources away from the Public Schools where you pointed out 90 of kids are educated. Thats the big fear. So one thing, every since that try to broaden how we thought about accountability, taking the focus off of reading and math test scores. We are still in a situation where, and ive worked with a number of the School District where the School District relies heavily on this title i funds to serve their students. And i see School District working very hard to do the very best for their students be continuously constrained. We might work with them and identify them as effective and want to keep implementing them but find they are short in their budget and cannot continue the program. The one thing i heard is we dont have adequate resources. We are not paying teachers well enough to commit to a profession where they feel all these pressures and the pressures increased tremendously with the pandemic and all the challenges we faced about students, more students having fallen behind in their education. I dont know if i exactly got to what your question was but thats one of things i hear. Without more resources for implementing effectively reforms of various types or ensuring Public Schools have adequate resources to serve many students who have greater needs now, we are not going to achieve or would like to achieve. Host its our landmark legislation series here on washington journal. We are focusing on the no child left behind law signed into law in 2002. Caller good morning. In the teaching field we referred to this program. As already mentioned with the increase in testing, the sad part is it wasnt used as a learning tool or opportunity, instead it was used as a punishment. Teacher salary depended on the tests, schools were graded on the test. So teachers taught to the test. The irony is the thinking that was begin to emerge at the time was student directed learning with teacher guidance and not teaching by fear. The testing was beneficial, financially beneficial. Two more observations, the program was supposed to increase Science Teacher salaries, it did not. It also promoted bringing in foreign teachers to supplement the teaching population in the United States. What the standards changes that occurred every year by the Florida Republican legislature gave me a summer job every summer rewriting curriculum for the School District. Thanks for listening. Mr. Hess its really interesting. The listener has some good points. Tinkering with curricula always happens. Before there was ever no child left behind, my first book was called spinning wheels because theres is endless churn around the School Reform curriculum. Some of what the viewer just shared was absolutely deeply believed by a lot of people in education. There was nothing in no child left behind that messed with teacher salary. It tested kids, those results were used to identify schools and School Systems. If you didnt make ayp, there was a cascade of remedies after the fifth identification your school was supposed to be restructured. When you talk with the people at the time, one of them was changing the principal of the school. The easiest trick they used was if you assigned the school and in number in the data system it counted as a reset. Because they were so overwhelmed after certain point by the number of schools that were identified as failing, the department of education couldnt handle anymore. The teacher pay was not affected directly. Districts adopted some kind of bonus related test scores, but there was nothing in the law that did this. There was nothing in the law that paid Science Teachers differently than others, there was nothing about hiring. But if you go back and you read from the American Federation of teachers of the time, you will see some of the stuff got shared. One of the complications that mark to this, nclb did some things that are good and valuable, a window into how kids were doing. Back in the late 80s, a West Virginia psychologist noted that every state in the nation reported their average student was above average nationally. Because they were using these tests that tended there were a lot of problems involved. But when we tried to debate what was working and what wasnt working among teachers, among parents, among folks out there, there was an interesting mix of confusion and fake news and the rest of it that it became fairly difficult. Sometimes they would get so frustrated that stuff there were responding to was inaccurate that it was really hard to have debates. People retreated to their corners. If you were against it you thought it was a conspiracy to make the bush family rich. And you still see a lot of that same divide very evident in education debate. Host did the whole focus on the stem curriculum, out of nclb . Mr. Hess it didnt. Its interesting the viewer has mentioned student centered learning, going back forever. Theres been a debate about how directed should be and you see the same thing with stem going back. And the National Defense education act of 58. Science, Technology Engineering and math program. Its understood its important for the national interest. So we have engineers and students who are accomplished in math. Again the viewer is fair to point out there been several efforts to promote stem learning. But that was not in any way significant part in particular. Host lets go to paul in new york city. Go ahead. Caller good morning. Host just make sure you mute your volume. Go ahead with your comment. Caller heres my question. We spend more in the u. S. Than most countries per student, the results is that we do very poorly. In new york, eric adams and his School Chancellor of called out a massive increase for students in new york city entrusted for a flechette inflation. The results are very poor. When we talk about stem, it provides better opportunities. Which is the whole purpose of education is supposed to be. Its was to give People Better lives. Its not supposed to be a steppingstone to go to college at all bunch of trouble so you can get a College Degree and work as a paris step. I guess my question is what do you think the answer is. Why are we spending so much more. I heard when your speakers say there is an issue with resources. In many northeastern districts, their spending can be quite high and the results can be quite poor. What is going on. Itll most Like Health Care where we spend more per capita and get less. It seems to be a trend in this country. Ms. Heinrich it is a complicated question because as we know, just having a certain number of dollars per student isnt going to necessarily depending on how that spend. Theres Research Showing spending on infrastructure which is what many people think about building schools more up to date technology, resources, adding on Infrastructure Spending isnt well correlated with in terms of student achievement. My experience with some districts where there constantly short of what they need to do. For example Pension Commission mints commitments made. Anything of the actual cost of the teacher, its not just the salary, if the benefits. Those are eating up more and more School Budget each year. In particular on things we think would increase Student Learning or like we said, if there are places where teacher salaries are still pretty low, how can we keep the great Science Teacher, the High School Science teacher from going to the private sector because he can make so much more money there. Its a complicated question. Research is not overwhelmingly consistent on whether or not School Spending leads to proven student achievement. I dont have the specific answer for whats happening in new york, but i do know these days we are asking schools to bring students to teach them. We have a range of services we are providing that they dont necessarily get in their communities. We have all kinds of things we are dealing with to help students learn, breakfast programs, lunch programs. Afterschool programming. I would say that might be part of the explanation for why even if we still find her so short, really from district to district many more of those types of extra Services Host next up is mike in ohio. Caller i think we did not mention on the teacher side how absolutely destroyed teachers. The scores were attached to teacher evaluation. So if youre a teacher and did not meet a certain standard now you are a poor teacher. And after so many years they would fire you. Ive seen teachers absolutely destroyed by test scores and they gave it their all. You cannot make students learn, you cannot legislate learning and it was a mass exit is of teachers. From the teachers point of view and as far as Charter Schools are concerned, a lot of people believe students go to a Charter School it will fix everything. The Charter School mirrors the local school. If the local school is a certain standard and they are not performing, a nine times out of 10 the Charter School will reflect that. Host we have more Charter Schools in the country here 20 years past the signing of no child left behind . Mr. Hess the previous caller mentioned minnesota past the first charter law in 91. Usually in the country, the local school board runs that. What a charter said was the state Legislature Passed a law saying other people would be able to open. In some states giving the authority to universities, others to a particular charter board. We have 7000 Charter Schools today serving about 3 million kids. It is fascinating. The interesting thing, was a no child left behind . We talk to the beginning of the show about this era of that emerged from the clinton years to the bush and obama years. In 2009 as part of the recovery and reinvestment, there was a program called race to the top that congress enacted. It gave about 5 billion for two programs. The race to the top rewarded states were doing things including teacher evaluations. So what happened was the tests that had been created in response to no child left behind , you could use those scores for teachers to look at how much of again these teachers kids had relative to other teachers. The Obama Administration did was then through those waivers was push states to adopt programs in which teachers were rated in part on the test scores. And as the caller mentioned theres all kinds of issues that can arise when teachers start getting graded narrowly. There was a very complicated debate, but in the teaching ranks it very much felt like this was being done as an attack on teachers. When you talk to the people who were most excited about it, they sought is a chance to more objectively and fairly evaluate. All of the stuff we are talking about was really what contributed. Host lets hear from rachel in Washington State, good morning. Caller this may seem like a detour, but ultimately its all connected. What do you think of what Bernie Sanders had to say about college for all and canceling student debt. Those parents are the ones taking care of those kids. Those parents in order to be able to afford to live somewhere decent and have their kids in a decent school, they have to have a profession, they have to do some and besides working at the store. Host either of you want to respond to that. Ill move onto the next call part we will go to judy in winstonsalem, north carolina. Caller good morning. I have a comment more so than a question. Its in reference to the george bush junior slogan about education and no child left behind law. That was setting people up for failure and now we are dealing with those students. This came in, it filtered into obama after he left george bush and after that time. I think he has two children, himself, one college one may have finished by now. One of the toys active middle schools there. Leave no child behind. My question and concern and i was listening to this. That was a good message method of leave no child behind for what we call leadership in education. I worked in Guilford County there in north carolina, now im traveling. Students leave no child behind failure, you say why is it doing that. Children learn on the same level. I was working with high school students, some were 18 years old in 10th, 11th and 12th grade and they could not read, they could not do math. Swim looking kindergarten through middle school. Host thank you for the fall think you for the call. You really start to notice there were issues with the law that needed to be worked out. Ms. Heinrich it did take a few years. States had to figure out they were going to establish their minimum standard in relation to proficiency requirement. It did not take long. A couple years into it, you had to have under the law the system in place and before the consequences started coming and there had to be three years we were school did not make adequate yearly progress, so i would say as we look around 2006 and 2007, thats where we see more and more schools start, thats where the crisis is really hitting where there were some of the students not making those not making adequate progress under those challenging standards and thats also where we talked about already where again School Systems within them. We heard from callers talking about how they repeatedly tested. In this last point that was made , were we doing better in not leaving some children behind, we are not measuring where students were but the results and some of the research where the focus really ended up being windows students were close, getting them over the bar and less attention to kids who were really far behind and was also mentioned the kids who were well over the bar. We recognize that i think thats where it became many more children became affected did host affected. Host an opinion piece, of the movement and homework is wrong, the debates over education obviously continue. Let me give you less than a minute or so to wrap this up on where you would like to see federal education policy go next. Mr. Hess i think washington has an Important Role. We have 50 states, if every state is doing different tests and theres no framework for comparability, its hard for voters or parents to really hold their leaders in their states accountable. The kind of framework no child left behind created around regular assessment and regular subjects made a ton of sense. I thought it did terrific job of keeping parts of that, the testing framework when walking away from this effort from washington to dictate School Improvements for the School Districts for 100,000 schools. I think theres an enormous federal role for investing in the kind of research that was alluded to. It doesnt make sense to do the exact same statebystate. I also think theres a role in protecting civil rights. What i think washington is not at its best and often gets in the way is when it starts trying for states and School Leaders about the right way to improve. At the that depend so much on contact that its just a normal sleep difficult for federal bureaucracy. Ms. Heinrich i agree with all of what rick just said that i would add the importance of the regular assessment, this is mentioned buyer viewer, lets look at how we constructively use that information. When its used to label schools, its not really effective. It really does set up for polarizing groups who all i think all agree that we care about whether students are learning. We now have more responsibility at the state level for the implementation. We have that with the information we are getting, understanding working and how we can move towards the goal we share and to learn more and succeed. Host landmark legislation, talking about it with Carolyn Heinrich, professor at vanderbilt Peabody College and rick hass hess. Thank you so much. That will do it for this mornings washington journal. We are back tomorrow morning at 7 00 and we hope you are as well. Enjoy the rest of your weekend. [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. Visit ncicap. Org] [captions Copyright National cable satellite corp. 2022] cspan is your unfiltered view of government. We are funded by these Television Companies and more including comcast. You think this is just a Community Center . Its way more than that. Comcast is partnering with Community Centers to create wifi enabled areas so students from low income families can get what they need. Comcast supports cspan as a public service. Giving your front row seat to democracy. Cspans washington journal. 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Host third Party Congressional candidates will likely not make a big dent in 2022 but what about 2024 and beyond . Ross perots run didnt win states but helped way that race to bill clnten. 30 years later the not to be a