Transcripts For CSPAN Tonight From Washington 20100723

to be taxed, hidden or otherwise, in the midst of an economic recession that we really find ourselves in a difficulty getting out of. i would suggest that even in good times -- i mean, you could pinpoint -- you can try to pinpoint on the calendar when those words -- this would evade a terrible piece of legislation. it was just -- would be unbelievably bad if we tried to enact a given the current economic situation. i believe we are trying to do -- it may be a noble cause, trying to get us into a new era of energy, something different from our traditional supplies, which we are going to need. the reality is we are going to need those supplies today, tomorrow, and the foreseeable future. i think what we are trying to do it -- they are trying to do is a noble but misguided -- driving up the price of today's energy so high with the hopes that something will come around a corner the next week that will be a substitute. what they are doing is attempting to drive us to the jetsons but they will end up pushing us back to the flintstones. the american people think it is a terrible policy. i sort of find it if not frustrating, somewhat comical, don't listen to your constituents, listen to me. host: are you concerned at all about a lame duck session where democrats would then take up a cap -- cap-and-trade proposal? . hear rumblings? charles crunk hammer -- kra uthammer writes in his piece this morning, passing the legislation even of the electorate voted against the democratic agenda in november but going ahead in that lame- duck session after the new congress comes in, passing their agenda. guest: i never try to handicap what congress may or may not do any week, let alone, months away out in a lame-duck session. but, yes, we have to keep an eye on it. we would be concerned. but the reality is that there will be open elections. the american people are going to speak and they are going to be telling a lot of people what they expect. whether it is in a lame duck session or in a new session beginning in january of 2011. i still have faith -- we may have political differences but i still have faith in our elected leaders out there -- following the lead of the american people 1. host: senate majority leader harry reid laid out what could be or what will likely be and as energy legislation that will come to the floor soon. it would remove $75 billion cap on liability of oil spill retroactively to include april when the rate exploded, energy efficiency will provide rebates of the cash register for energy- saving investments for homes. he says that could create 350,000 to 400,000 jobs. converts -- promote conversion from diesel fuel to natural gas for transportation, and adds money to the water conservation fund which give money to federal, state, and local government to buy land, water, and what land for preservation. then i ask you about the natural gas component for that? what does that mean? guest: i believe that mr. pickens is one again attempting to get subsidies -- and these are subsidies -- not tax provisions but direct subsidies -- for conversion of diesel powered trucks that move goods across the country very efficiently, and convert those to natural gas by saying that -- we nacelles off of foreign crude oil. unfortunately again this is one of the things that the american taxpayer -- and i believe he was asking for something like $65,000 per trucker as a subsidy so they can go out and get a new truck -- that would cost more than that, to use natural gas. this is, in our opinion, fraught with both technical and economic consequences. host: would that hurt the refinery industry? guest: well, we sell a lot of diesel to trucks. but the problem is, not to worry about it hurting the refining industry but what will it do to the american consumer? what is that going to do for the taxpayer? what is it going to do to the cost of goods and services? is it efficient, is an affordable and reliable? yes, natural gas is reliable. no question about that. but is its best intended use in the engine of a semi? it could only be marginally economic if there is a $65,000 per shorebird tax subsidy. -- per truck tax subsidies but i do believe natural gas is a vital component. we should be using it in the most efficient manner possible, and putting it in trucks, i don't believe, is the most efficient manner possible. host: florida. sandy, republican line. caller: thank you. mr. drevna, why isn't your industry pushing the energy bill includes safety measures like your partners in canada do? like demanding that they already have that second safety well drilled on all of their underwater drilling? it seems so important. host: you might have missed the beginning of this interview but mr. drevna explain the the refining industry is separate from the oil and gas exploration industry. and so, you don't have an opinion when it comes to that. guest: no, i don't. host: we will move on. georgia, robert. independent line. caller: just misinformation because he is talking about the moratorium and how it affects the industry. and in the first place, they did not just carte blanche shut down the entire industry. what i understand, it is only 21 of the drillers that they shut down. is that correct? guest: to tell you the truth, i am not sure exactly -- the line caller: i think you do know. only 21 and there are plenty more out there still drilling. how much of the oil do we get as far as being shipped in here? the u.s. only produces 2% or 3% of the world -- of oil in the world? guest: in the world we produce more than that but for our own use as we produce upwards to 40% or 45% of our own oil. but again, we are the first customer. we of the first ones that receive the the crude oil from wherever it comes from. we manufacture our deep manufacture it, change it, make products americans use. whether it comes from the gulf, whether it comes from canada or somewhere else in the world. it, says the cost to buy crude oil? guest: crude-oil and is not a single item. the world price is set by the best quality crude oil available, the one that is called sweet crude. it is the lowest in sulfur and lowest in contaminants. and then you have a whole range throughout the whole -- whole world that go to the very heavy crude, contaminants and lots of sulfur. it really costs the lot more to process that lower quality crude and that it does the hall light -- higher quality. unfortunately, the higher- quality crudes come from some of the more unstable regions. host: what kind of quality is in the gulf of mexico? guest: it is good quality. but that, too, varies from where you are. host: does it depend on how far out? guest: no, it doesn't. it just what that particular well is comprised of. host: baltimore, maryland. bill, democratic line. caller: good morning a long time listener to "washington journal." good morning, sir. i agree that the moratorium was probably a jam too fast. they need to look a little further. item on the left a little bit but i have to tell you, just about harry reid, i think that was just him running for senate. he is running for his life. basically cap-and-trade was a victim of that. as to employment and your jobs on the rigs -- in the refineries, i have two cousins in texas in houston, if you are talking about job creation on the refinery site, sir, i have to correct you, they have been downsizing for years. if the refinery is hard not in the job creation business -- host: why are they downsizing? caller: automation and just the way business goes. across american industry, we have seen it. people get downsized. i just wanted to mention the truth of what happened. i would also offer that as far as the law goes an epa, you tell me you are in litigation. if the epa is not going to regulate you, would you regulate yourself? i will take my answer over the air. if the epa is not going to regulate you out at some level in some way, who is? we have seen the damage of what the oil companies can do but i am not saying the refineries are part and parcel but you have been in bed with the company's four years. my cousins tell me what goes on with those refineries, how people get hurt. they were taken care of, i give it to you all. in the industry they take care of those who are hurt. but let's just be fair. who is going to regulate? guest: i appreciate your comments. your second question first. when i was refering that epa should not be regulating -- which are regulated by epa on any number of friends. the point i was making it that we don't believe epa has the authority under the clean air act to regulate greenhouse gas emissions. that is what we are litigating on but not other regulations on whether it is air, water, land kind of the missions. let me make it perfectly clear. we don't believe that use of the clean air act or any other act that was really passed back in the 1970's is applicable to the current situation with greenhouse gas emissions. that is the point i was making. the other point -- yes, all industries have been downsizing. the point i want to make their is if we continue down this path, there will be no domestic american-made refinery jobs in this country. these are good, high-paying jobs. you don't have to have a college education to get them and you still make a very good living. you can provide for your family, own a home and put your kids through school. we are proud of that fact. and you are right, we do take care of our employees because although we are a big industry, we are a community industry. our kids, their kids, their families go to the same schools, the same churches, the same little league. as someone gets injured or worse, it affects not only the whole industry but it really affects that community. host: monticello, new york. david, republican line. caller: good morning. as always, thank you for c-span. the phoniness of the democrats on the energy issue is illustrated by two things. the fact that 12 democrats senators are working against harry reid. it is not the republicans by harry reid can get to work with him, it is his fellow democrats from the industrial midwest, northern democrats that will not work with charlie rangel. but here locally -- age, i think you meant harry reid. caller: excuse me, harry reid. a charlie rangel is on the mind this morning. ok. yes, with harry reid. but here locally we have a congress man. he is against everything. he wants to decommission the nuclear power plants at indian point and his minions -- i don't know if he personally has come out against it, but his minions here, his environmentalists have come out against exploration for natural gas. here we have it. the democrats talk about natural gas and yet they will not allow exploration and drilling for it but the process called hydraulic fracturing here in bed shale belts where natural gas is plentiful, and they won't allow it to be explored for and drill the floor and brought to market. so again, we see that to face -- two-facedness illustrated by those two points. host: david mention charlie rangel. the reason why he was on his mind because it is the front page of many newspapers, that charlie rangel faces ethics charges. there is going to be a public hearing next week. back to energy legislation and david's comments. guest: i understand the frustration. because what we have seen -- it is almost like a triangulation. we want to get off of our reliance on foreign sources of energy. but we don't want to increase our own supplies of energy -- whether it -- whether it is on shore, offshore, no clear, cold, if it is a fossil fuel, whenever. so they want to come up with these magic bullets, wave of the wind on the new energy source. what we are doing with the moratorium -- whether the one currently because of the disaster or the one we have been living with for 35 years off the east and west coast, those, by definition, make us go out and get energy supplies from foreign sources. so, we have this continue trying pullback in fourth. at the end of the day, it is a the economy and american people that end up suffering. host: one last phone call, mr. drevna. bob, independent line. caller: i would like to thank you for c-span. you'd give all of the alternate views. but this entire spill, i have been following it, we all entertain hypothetical but what if another spill happen simultaneously with this one? what affect would that had in the gulf? not to mention, with regard to the conference, the east coast of the united states and how much damage would that do to the ies would be econom affected. guest: again, that would be a disaster. we try not to deal in a hypothetical but deal with what we have today. again, whether it is in the gulf or off the shores of the east or west coast, a refinery or anywhere, we have to make sure they in and day out that we are operating our facilities as a fully and efficiently as possible and we don't do that through confrontation. we don't do that by countering press releases but we do it through cooperation. that is what we tried to do in a refining -- refininin industry >> tonight, a panel investigating the deepwater horizon explosion. a reminder that we have an archive of dozens of hearings, speeches, rallies and events spill at arab bile website. -- at our website. admiral allen said the preparations are being made to move ships away from the approaching storm in the gulf of mexico. the cap would remain in place if an evacuation becomes unnecessary. mr. allen said the effects of the storm could be felt as early as saturday morning. this is almost 25 minutes. >> i would like to give you a quick update as to what is going on at the site. i flew over it yesterday and saw the rigs making preparations for what we need to do to deal with the weather. and it just go over those preparations and then give you a quick update. last night, and the development of a driller to do and driller 3 or directed to detach from their site. this means there disconnecting from the loraine package. there in the process right -- and the lower marina package. there in the process right now of pulling the riser pipe. that is going on as we speak. the second thing that is going on is that the q-4000, which has a connection to the controller on the blowout preventer has to be raised as well. that is in the process of recovering the yellow pot. that is the interaction between the cables that send signals down to the blowout preventer. the goal is that once all of the recovery operations are completed, it will be up to the masters to figure out the best location to ride out the storm. the intention right now is to put them someplace where it convey -- where they can resume operations as quickly as possible. this is not a hurricane right now. it is a tropical storm. it will be a determination by the people operating the vessels where to put them to minimize risk. we would like to get back unseen and restart activities as soon as we can. this will all be subject to the conditions out there and the people manning vessels because they are responsible for the safety of the vessels. the vessels will stay as long as possible. as conditions allow, they will remain through the passage of the storm. if not, that we are prepared to leave the well site based on the rise of the science team -- based on the advice of the science team. we will leave tiger fund at the base of the well to be able to monitor any -- we will leave phones at the base of the well to be able to monitor any activity. if there is any leakage we will be able to see that. while we may have to leave the site, and we do not know that we will, we are prepared to optimize our surveillance platforms as we do that. the general consensus right now, and this is a rule of thumb, is that we have to evacuate the scene, we're probably looking at something around 48 hours. our priorities after the passage of the storm are to reestablish the operations of development driller 3. we need to finish a final casing run which is the last step in the bottom kill process. we also need to stabilize the relief wells so that we can do the static killed from the top of which will enhance our ability to do the bottom killed. we do not want to do the mud from the top because there is a problem with orwell integrity that might affect the relief well -- a problem with a well thatgrated -- integrity might affect the relief well. it will probably take five-seven days for the cement to drive around the casing run to begin to actually continue the bottom killed. in the meantime, our priorities are the safety of personnel. that dictates the movement of the vessels and the preservation of the command, and their ability to come back and complete operations. there is not a lot of oil out there. we have a lot of skimming capacity. we're approaching 800 skimming vehicles. the question now is to put them somewhere out of harm's way. there has been a question about the state of the oil during the storm. there is a good and a bad part to that. sometimes the increased activity on the service can actually help the animals a vacation of the oil -- in the animal suffocatiimulsification of the . we are prepared to aggressively attack this once of the storm has passed but in the meantime, preservation of life and equipment are our highest priorities. >> [inaudible] >> first of all, i think we all share the same goal, and that is to minimize the impact on life and property and the ability to protect not only people but the environment. it makes sense to take equipment and protected. we're working with local parish president and local leaders to figure out the best way to do that. it is hard to fight high ground in some of these parishes. we need to know where the stuff goes and how that is done. in the long run, we're all in agreement that we need to put this equipment where it can be best maintained and be safe for following years. i am still haunted by the specter of flying over new orleans on the sixth of september as a principal federal official and looking down at a parking lot of buses that were flooded and not used for evacuation because they were not moved in time. >> i'm from the associated press. i have a question regarding the seat that was identified within 3 kilometers. -- seep that was identified within 3 kilometers. the ap has a map. i wonder if you could let it this and show us which one of these you believe -- >> you caught me without my glasses. we can follow-up with you on that. >> i'm from cnn. there are complaints from the parish president. is there any it sort of protection you can leave in place with this storm coming or are they going to be completely unprotected? >> it depends on how you turn protection. booms and marge is do not stop storm surge -- barges do not stop storm surge. things are going to be moved to high ground as quickly as possible. those are tactical decisions that i will lead to another admiral. it makes sense to evacuate personnel when you reach a certain threshold. you do not want the equipment to be down there where it could be damaged and you cannot use it. >> you said that developmental one and three -- >> one and two. >> those are the main relief wells? >> yes. they're still there because they have to poll the drill strings, the riser pipe. it comes up and 40 but sections that have to be disconnected and stored on the drill rig. once that is done, we are allowing three-four hours to put it in the safest place relative to where the storm is coming. all of that is going on now. they have not physically left the scene. there demobilizing and disconnecting. >> is this a response to a tropical storm threat or a hurricane threat, or are they both the same? >> there is no prediction of a hurricane right now. tropical storm bonnie is over 39 miles per hour. we do not think it will evolve into a hurricane at this point. it is in the 40 mile per hour range. the anticipated sale fgale force winds make it advisable for the personnel and equipment to move. these decisions are based on the survivability and the ability to withstand winds. we have worked very closely with our science team down in houston right now because we want to continue to try to get scientific data out there. we know that the different companies that are out there ultimately have the responsibility for the safety of those rigs. they have a threshold for which they need to move out. >> what is the timeline for moving now? at what point would you make the decision to pull back to the vessels, and what are the criteria for that decision? . . my guess is that it will be some time later today. i cannot give you an exact time because this will be based on conditions. >> as land is and what you said in the worst case, you would lose vision on the cap for 48 hours? >> that is the estimation. >> when the vessels return, it would be another 40 hours before you can resume work on the relief well? >> correct. >> how would we know if and when you lose eyes on the cap? >> we will only lose the surface vessels that are there. we will have the ability to listen to the well. the coast guard has already scheduled flights and we will be doing surveillance and we will also be using our natural assets. >> at this time, we will take questions from the phone. >> good morning. can you tell me which vessels might stay and at what see state could they stay? >> i think in general, the less would be the seismic survey. i believe that we are in a break in acoustic vessels. these are various names. >> good morning. i was hoping you could clarify the functionality of the hydrophones that you are speaking about. they are remotely controlled. who is monitoring that? how are the signals being transmitted back to shore? >> that is a very good question. we will not have the wherewithal to send those signals back real time. if something was able to occur, we would do the analysis after the fact. if you are talking about real time, they have been part of the surface vessels, our real-time feedback would be the aerial surveillance. >> in looking ahead, -- after the storm that had you thought of the whether you will be able to get a flow estimate? it is that something you are looking to do? >> that is a great question. i have gotten that question quite often. the answer is, there are many sources of data that we have out there included the pressure readings that have been taken. we believe there is adequate data out there to establish a flow rate. to remove this might not be the right thing to do but we will use all available means and data to get our best empirical-based measurement of the flow rate. >> can you explain the time line you're talking about that we can expect as the storm gets closer. is your chance that any of them will be open? >> we are estimating only because of the wind that is predicted, it might start to calm down. we are convinced that there is enough that would allow us for a enough basis that we could leave the well capped and return as quickly as possible. >> now you know that these will have to be redeployed, there might be the concern. can you get the best guess on the target dates? >> this will be based on the wind and the sea stayed. they will have to reconnect the riser pipe and then go back and remove the subsidy containment device. at that point, they would be ready to put the casey in. -- case seeing in. >> when they do you think that this will reach the site of the spill? wendy's think that ships can start returning? when these things that you can get the estimates? >> we can start feeling the affects early saturday morning and we think the passage of the front will occur over 48 hours. we cannot be any more accurate because the storm is still a ways out. assuming that the storm passes within 48 hours, at some point we can look to return the vessels back on scene. this is dependent on the weather and the wind? we have a lot of information from the pressure sensors. we are continuing to develop more information. we will continue to gather more information once we can do the hydrostatics killed. that will tell us if we have a precipitous drop in pressure. that will tell us maybe if there really is a leak. while we may or may not take the cap off, we will use all available evidence and empirical information to establish the flow rate. we will continue to do this with all available information. >> this will be the last question. >> this is ariel information you will be able to get it. as i understand, they will not be able to establish the condition. >> we will see indication of oil coming to the surface. we will see it with satellite surveillance. we have assessed what we feel is the integrity of the well today. we have run down all of the anomalies associated and we have identified the source and is some cases the leakage due to seals or gaskets have been issues that are not consequential. this involves a discussion about whether the reservoir had been depleted and when the cap the well is. this seems to be why the well might be depleted. discussions will remain and the testing will continue. we are trying to -- we are confident enough about keeping the world that as we move through this storm passes. thank you. >> thank you for joining us. >> tonight, testimony from the former chief electronics technician from the oil rig. he told members of a panel that an important to learn system was turned off prior to the explosion that led to the oil spill. you can see that tonight starting at 8:00 eastern, 5:00 pacific. a reminder, we have an archive of dozens of hearings, beaches, rallies, protest regarding this bill. also live footage from the cameras beneath the surface available at our website. this weekend, the former "new york times," editor on the changing world of the newspaper industry. >> i worry about the standards and maintaining the integrity as we move from one whirled into another. >> -- world into another. >> this weekend, saturday, the eagle forum collegian's some thaummit. then, a discussion about the life that our guest left behind. then the discussion on the legacy left behind by roosevelt. how >> as the senate prepares to debate the energy bill, find out about previous bills with our video library. look up a bill with our new search feature and watched congressional hearings and previous debates on the house and senate floor. this is all on line and in the video library. this is washington your way. >> president obama said that a new report on ceo pay underscores the need for the pay regulation. that report says that ceo paul said 17 banks received more than $1.5 billion in compensation while also receiving government funds. the president praised the bipartisan breakthroughs in the senate that led to the passage of an extended unemployment benefits to pave the way for a bill. >> good morning, everyone. we have a change of venue. we like to mix it up. i want to talk about the progress that we made this week on three fronts. as we work to repair the damage of the economy from this recession and build a stronger foundation. first, i signed a wall street reform bill that will protect consumers and our entire economy from recklessness and irresponsibility that led to the worst recession since the great depression. this will help us put a stop to the abusive practices of mortgage lenders and credit-card companies and make sure that people get this straight information that they need before they take out a long rope and a credit card. this will bring the shadowy deals that caused the financial crisis into the light of day. it will also end taxpayer bailouts. the need for this reform was underscored by a report issued by ken feinberg identifying a number of financial companies that continue to pay out lavish bonuses at the height of the financial crisis even as they stepped it billions of dollars in taxpayer assistance. second, i signed a law that will improve our building. every year, the government wastes tens of billions of taxpayer dollars on erroneous companies that have not paid their taxes, or prison inmates, or people that have died. today, we have the ability to block these payments. i have set a target to save at least $50 billion by 2012, these savings are more important today than ever because we simply don't have any money to waste. third, we finally overcame the procedural blockade of a partisan minority in the senate to restore the unemployment insurance for 2.5 million americans that are out of work. together, we made enormous progress on wall street reform, making sure that we are eliminating waste and abuse in government, and providing immediate assistance to people who are out there looking for work. ultimately, our goal is to make sure that people who are looking for a job can find a job. that is why it is important for the senate to pass the additional steps i have asked for, to cut taxes, and extend lending for the small businesses. a small business jobs bill that contains these measures might come up for a final vote in the senate in the next few days. with this small business bill, we will set up a new lending front to help give the banks and help them to grow. to help states encourage more private sector loans to small businesses and industries like manufacturing and construction that had been hard hit by this recession. to expand our most successful initiatives and more than double the size of loans for small business owners and two on what the growth of our entrepreneurial spirit to. after a series of partisan delays, the senate took an important step forward by supporting a lending fund in the overall small catheters for the leadership and advocacy -- supporting a lending fund. i would like to thank the senator is for their leadership in supporting a lending fund. the small-business men and women who write to me every day, who i've met with across the country, they cannot afford any more political games. they need us to do what they sent us here to do. they did not send this year to wage a never ending campaign or what is best for our political party, they sent us here to do what is best for the united states of america and all of its citizens. that is what i hope that we will do it in the remaining days before the congress takes its recess. thank you very much. [captioning performed by national captioning institute] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2010] >> this weekend, saturday, the eagle forum summit. on "afterwords," ali speaks about the life that she left behind. then, a discussion about the legacy left behind by franklin roosevelt. this weekend, the former "new york times," public editor on the changing industry. >> i worry about the standards and maintaining journalistic integrity as we move from one media world to another. >> next, a look at a history of the agricultural department and a focus on race relations and civil-rights. . >> this was my decision it was a decision that i -- this was my decision. it was a decision that i regret having made in haste. you ask why. we have been focused on trying to address the longstanding issue of civil rights claims against the department. there are outstanding claims brout by black farmers, hispanic farmers from women farmers, and native american farmers. these are not just a few instances or isolated claims. there are tens of thousands of claims that have been brought against the department. host: jerry hagstrom is a contributing editor with "national journal." can you give our viewers and over all outline of what has been going on at the agricultural department when it comes to civ rights? guest: it is important to say that the problems go all the way back to the late 19th century. after the civil war, when blacks were freed, they began to acquire land, usually very small farms. they took the money from their wages and their sharecropping income and they were able to buy these small farms. at the same time, the agriculture department had been established in 1862 by president ncoln. in the late-19th century, they began to establish the land grant colleges to help agriculture throughout the country. in the early-20th-century, the engines in service provided service to farmers -- the extension service provided service to farmers to help them. in the south, the blacks were not allowed to go to the land grant colleges, so a separate report established. some of them have become very fine institutions, but they did not have the same institutions that the big land grant colleges did. the extension service was segregated. the black eension agent opened a black farmers did not havthe same resources. -- the black extension agency did not have the same resources. when the roosevelt administration established the modern farm program with the subsidies - there were controls on production. in order to set up that program, the roosevelt administration needed to know who was actually a former. -- farmer. they had no staff to do this period is set up committees -- the had no staff to do this. they set up committees. those committees established to was a farmer. hired a staff through the local offices -- they hired staff through the local offices. those committee were invariably composed of white men, often conservative, and sometimes they denied service to black farmers, hispanic farmers, native american farmers, and women farmers. that is why there are lawsuits against the usda. host: we're talking with jerry hagstrom about minorities in the usda. there is that situation with shirley sharrod. u have seen thosi discussions going on. agriculture secretary said he was sorry for firing her and has asked her to come back. the discussions about the history. that is what the secretary talked about when hissued the apology. he said the outcome of this has been these lawsuits. breakdown those lawsuits individually and where do they stand as far as payment? guest: there have been five lawsuits. there is an initial lawsuit known as pigord 1 -- pigford 1, settled when the clinton administration was in power. it has paid out over $1 billion, usually in amounts of about $55,000. there were black farmers who said they did not get the chance to file suit on time. in congress, in 2008, they allow these people to file again. the payment on that is currently pending, because the farm bill only included $100 billion -- $100 million for it and you need another 1.1 $5 billion to pay that off. -- $1.15 billion to pay that off. as that in the bill. senate is debating whether to include that. host: the senate rejected additional spending on the war supplemental. guest: i guess it is out again. this is an example of the problem that happens with civil rights issues at usda. it is a drag on and on. they rarely get settled. the other suits are all in different status. the usda is negotiating with native american farmers as a class-action lawsuit. they're engaged in negotiations, along with the justice departme, on the women's suit and the hispanic farmers suit. host: these payments average in the range of billions or millions? guest: we not know yet. most payments were $50,000 for those individuals, but there were some that were considerably larger. the dependent on what the farmer was willing to except for what they could prove -- it depended on what the farmers were willing to accept or what they could prove. host: we will do this regionally. you can start dialing in depending on where you are in the country. we want to show our viewers the farms and the united states according to 2007 statistics. total forms are about 2.2 million. total farms -- total farms are about 2.2 million. total farms operated by white farmers, 2.1 million. total farms operated by african- american -- 30,000. have these numbers changed since then? guest: i do no think we have any moreecent data on that. for perspective, in 1920, there were 925,000 black farmers. a lot of the black farmers maintain that, because they did not get a proper assistance from the agricultural department, technical assistance and the loans that were sometimes crucial when there had been a bad crop or a terrible weather problem, thathey ended up going in and out of farming. of crse, blacks, like whites, have left the farm. the number of farms has decreased dramatically. somef that is just the natural progression with mechanization and the movement to the city. still, there is a special issue here with what happened to the black farmers. host: our first call is from jacksonville, florida. good morning. caller: thank you. in 1999, the department of agriculture paid black farmers over $13 million to settle these claims. mrs. sharrod and h husband collected three and a thousand dollars between them. my parents -- $300,000 between them. my parents -- grandparents were sharecroppers. i had cancer and uncles and cousins who lost their land -- aunts and uncles and cousins had tot tehheir land and move on to other things. they could not get through to california. no one has ever asked them about their bank foreclosure. he also talked about the acres of lands that e owned by white form deep -- white people. brazilians, germans -- most farmland is owned by foreign nations. host: the is a lot there. can you address that? guest: i have to correct the caller's statement that most farmland is owned by foreigners. that just is not true. almostll the farmland in the united states is owned by americans. a very small percentage is owned by foreigners. there are some agribusiness companies owned by foreigners. that is part of globalization. in terms of her ancestors, i would agree that there are terrible tragedies associated with that period. still, there were and have been proven cases of these farmers not getting the assistance from usda that the white farmers did. in some cases, the record has shown that whites were able to buy the land becausehe blacks have to go out of business because they could not get loans. host: there have been complaints filed since the year 2000. guest: with the employment of employees within that department -- there is a separate issue. secretary bills that has tried to address that issue -- vilsack has tried to address that issue. these cases are old. the statute of limitations has run out. there would have to be an act of congress to take them up. there are a range of problems. usda has started a lot of efforts to try to overcome these problems. for example, in recent years, there has been an effort to get minorities and women to run for these county committees, so that they're not just white men in these positions of power. also, within the agriculture department, there has been a strong attempt to employ people of minorities, women, and to let them rise within the organization, not just be in low-level jobs. >>lad water, texas -- gladewater, texas. sorry. what is your question or comment? caller: you did a really good outline of some of the problems happening back in those days, but you left out the grandfather clause. do you remember that? guest: i do not. please refresh me. i am a reporter, not a historian. caller: it is stated that if you were not a natural-going citizen or if you were african- american, you could only -- after they got through with the grandfather clause, they hit us with -- i forgot what it was -- but under that clause, people lost their money. under the economic -- the holdout that they had -- you were asking about howany new farmers there were since 2007. 32,500. hella -- host: caller from california. caller: we have discrimination. i do not like the money that the government gives to subsidize farmers. i did not know whether it is going on, but i believe it is. it is very large amounts. they're not turning up the cross. look at what we have coming into stores -- coming from ecuador, coming from everywhere else. where are the crops coming from? why not from the unit states? host: can you talk about subsidies to farmers? guest: the subsidies still go on. the level of subsidies at the present time is much lower than it was 10 years ago, because commodity prices have increased. the payments that are made to farmers have gone down dramatically. in terms of t products coming in from other countries, it is true that we export a lot. we import a lot. productslking about coming in from ecuador. i would say that is probably largely -- first of all, it may be bananas, which we do not grow here, except in very small amounts in hawaii. secondly, americans have developed a taste for fresh vegetables and fruits in the off-season, when they're not really grown here. we import them from countries where they are grown in that ason. host: the next call is from south carolina. good morning. caller: good morning and thank you for c-span. i like to piggyback this on previous callers. many of the problems at the department of agriculture -- how much of that can really be attributed to the illegal taking of black land, particularly in the south? guest: there is no way to quantify what you are talking about. of course there was never that much land owned by black people. i think the highest figure i have seen has been about 15 million acres. at the present time, it is about 7 million acres. if someone has better figures than that, i am interested. that was the best i could find. the question of black land loss is very complicated, because, as blacks moved to the cities and people moved -- to stop farming, the land often came into the hands o heirs, a large number of them. black farrs could not get the kind of help that white farmers got. therefore, they were under pressure to sell their land. i cannot quantify the issue. host: san diego. caller: does he really believed it is more about the land that was received or imported versus exported? america has put all their late -- all their eggs in one basket. guest: the vast majority of food in this country is still grown in this country. that is true of every country in the world. we talk about agricultural exports and imports, but it is still basically domestic production. it is definitely true that, in some cases, we are importing more than we used to. for example, asparagus. we're importing a lot of despair is from peru and chile -- of asparagus from peru and chile. there are some growers who have gone out of business because they find it difficult to compete with the imports. most of the food you get is from the united state it may not look like that at the fruit and vegetable section. host: for lauderdale, florida. -- fort lauderdale, florida. caller: i have a little cold, so forgive me. my grandfather had a 15-acre cotton field. he lost it because the bank would not give him alone -- a loan. he lost evething. my mother tried to help them out. they lost everything. a farmer or any average person -- how do you expect a farmer or any average person to make it when the banks or so tight that they will not help you --hey will watch you lose it, keep the land, and try to resell it. the market value is down so much they cannot do anything with it and they are responsible for the taxes. host: mr. hagstrom. guest: i cannot speak to the individual case. i do not know when that took place. a lot o these problems arise in a period of low prices, bad weather conditions. the farmer who does not have capital cannot handle the problem. that is why these programs were set up. this program at the agriculture department is supposed to be the lender of last resort. that is why there are so many problems. they're supposed to help the farmers who have the most problems. by lender of last resort, it means those who could not get a loan at the bank. yeah, of course, you're not going to have quite as good a performance on those loans, because you are helping the poor -- you're helping the people with the most troubles. host: are more farmers turning to that solution than previously? guest: the khyber will -- the biggert virtual -- the agriculture department now guarantees loans at the bank's. the banks are insisting on more and more loan guarantees from usda. the program has become fully says -- fully-subscribed. they have to ask for additional funds. host: how much is the funding? guest: i cannot tell you that. caller: a good morning. guest: good morning. good to talk to you. alabama i have a question -- caller >> i have a question -- caller: what has ever been done to sort of -- what has been done to penalize some of these officials? gary grant, president of the black farmers and agriculture association, said that, given that there have been levels of discrimination against black farmers, nothing was er done to penalize the all-white officials bent on destroying the society of black farmers across the nation -- not one firing, not one charge brought, not one pension lost. host: he brings up -- mr. hagstrom? guest: he brings up a very interesting point. shirley raised that point that she was forced to resign. as far as i know, no one else was forced to resign, but there have been people forced into retirement. it is not as though nothing has happened, but the general practice at usda has been to try to do better in the future than to punish the people who were involved in these problems. and then, of course, the fact that usda is encouraging minorities and women and lower- income farmers to run for the county committee positions means that it is not so easy today for the established farmers to get on these committees as it once was. host: kathleen? good morning. caller: we have a lot of farmers. they are hardworking people. all of the family members are out there working the fields. why is it that some people -- some farmers think they should get any type of help when they don't produce or work the fields correctly? host: she is talking about the comfort -- conservation program? guest: on the question of why farmers would get help when they do not produce -- we have a program called the conservation reserve program. the marginal land is better kept out the production -- out of production, because it may be hilly, near water, it is just not good for farming. if you start using ar machines on that land -- farm machines, on that land, you're likely to have a variety of problems. the issue with farmland is that somebody owns it and has to pay taxes on it. it needs to be tended, otherwise it will grow into weesd. -- weeds. the neighbors will complain. this is one reason there is a role in the government for helping the farmers avoid the planting on that land. , you may recall that we were exporting a lot to the soviet union and the middle eastern countries. the government was encouraging more production. land that had never been put into production was put into production and the export market fell apart. we had low prices and a whole other set of problems. host: roswell, georgia. desk -- caller: i was doing some family research. my grandparents had bought land -- 18 acres of land in 1930 something -- 1934. they had to put up a bond -- a form tha they had inherited, free and clear -- a farm that they had inherited, free and clear, from their father. they had put up a 60-acre farm to buy this land that was worth $600. should not be 18 acres they bought have been the collateral against the property they were trying to buy? host: how did that usually work, jerry hagstrom? guest: since they had not yet paid for the 18 acres, i doubt that it could be considered collateral for the loan. if there was a problem, it would have gone back to the previous landowner. i can see why the bank would want other collateral, but it seems rather outrageous to put up 600 acres to take out a loan to buy 18 acres. i am sure that there were a racist actions by banks back in -- outrageous actions by banks back in that time. caller: i work with the very old black gentleman who tells me how his grandfather owned a farm on the eastern shore. but when one of his sons ran off with a caucasian woman and got married and they left, some not,fter owning this farm for quite a long time, somehow, it got taken away. all of his four men -- foremen got killed. i'm glad this is happening. it brings to let the injustice thethe past -- to light injustice of the past which can be rectified or at least talked about and acknowledged. host: their right this -- they write that there is an uplifting story at the heart of this fracas moving on to dayton, ohio. good morning. caller: good morning. this reporter does not seem to know much about the farmers. we need somebody who will represent what really happened to the black farmers. when it comes to the black farmers, there were a lot of black farmers who lost their farms because of mistreatment. if he wants to do a story, he should just give it over. that is what needs to be known -- how they were treated and how they lost their farms. st: of do you want to weigh in? guest: i consider him a good source of information. i have interview him a number of times. there were 925,000 black farmers in the 1920's. i am not saying there were a smaller number than there were. that is what the census statistics show. host: in 2007, they show that there are now 30,599. another caller has said it is around 32,000. white farmers are around 1.1 million. -- 2.1 million. indianapolis, carl. caller: i am a small-time growers to produce. i want to comment onhis black armor situation. i want to mention that the quality of produce that we get from foreign countries is pour. -- poor. it is shipped a long way. and not know what kind of pesticides were used. -- you do not know what kind of pesticides were used. you cannot get california grapes even. host: mr. hagstrom? guest: the caller brings up a big issue -- the question of consuming locally-grown foods compared to those that have traveled a great distance. the usda is trying to help local farmers. over the last 40 years in this country, we have developed a system of industrial agriculture which emphasizes the production at the most efficient levels. grow -- a lot of produce comes from california. there has been a the emphasis on production in other parts of the country. they are trying to encourage more local production again. host: houston, tommy. good morning. what is your question or comment? caller: i want to thank you for the history you have given. especially with the land grant colleges. i attended per view a&m -- purdue new mexico university -- preview -- prairie view a&m. he was talking about abraham lincoln and how that got set up with the land grant colleges. host: do you want to repeat that for people who are just tuning in? guest: in the latter part of the 19th century, congress passed laws to establish land grant colleges in each of the 50 -- there were not 50 states -- in each state. they set up these schools. today, they often do not have the same names that they did. in my native state of north dakota, it was the north dakota agricultural college. these land grant colleges are still there and they still do agricultural research. in the southern states, where blacks could not go to those schools, congress, in 1890, established another set of schools which are known as the 1890 colleges and universities. they still exist. they he been a primary source for the education of african- americans over the decades. they're still very prominent today. host: cecilia, ky. raymond. pollard and a good morning. thank you for c-span. i have a question and comment. i'm getting tired of us taxpayers supporting all of these farmers to grow crops. i can understand doing it, but the reason i am getting tired -- i will not give you an example. nothing is ever done about it. within 1 mile of me -- i live out of town about 6 miles. within 1 mile of me, this farmer has taken advantage of every one of those programs over the years. he is still taking advantage of them. just recently, the city stretched the limits out and bought his property. i don't know figures, but somewhere around $4 million. they gave him $45,000 -- $145,000 -- former and $45,000. 000.- $445, host: there have been a lot of things about the subsidies. where do they stand right now. -- stand right now? congress is working on another farm bill. guest: the farmer was charming and got subsidies. he has now sold land to the city -- farming and got subsidies. a lot of farmers make money by selling their land or houses. -- for houses. your last crop is houses. it seems unfair, but there isn't much you can do about it. when he was farming -- i do not know the conditions and whether orot he needed the subsidies, but i have to admit it seems unfair to get those subsidies for all of those years and then to make a killing on selling the land. it would be good for that person to give something back to the government or the community. caller: mr. hagstrom, i was listening to the lady who said she was against these subsidies. could you explain what the results would be if we did not pay these subsidies and howre few -- food process would cost more? guest: we do not really know what would happen without the subsidies. i have traveled in brazil, argentina -- they do not have the same types of programs that we do. they still have the food production. but the farms are in the hands of a far fewer number of people. th become really megagarms -- mega-farms, with a lot of people working on the land,ather than owning the land. host: couple more phone calls. one from illinois. color >> i am sure these things happened t these farmers. -- caller: i am sure these things happen to these farmers. life is a matter of experience. i grew up in a dairy farm. in the 1980's -- nobody remembers former aide -- farm aid. it had to do with interest rates. i understand everybody has hard times. these things do happen. economics is just as big a thing for farmers as anything else. host: we're going to new york. our last phone call. caller: is there footage of the gentlemen in the early 2000's who control loans to the farmers? he was bei interviewed and aske what did you do aft -- he said, i threw them in the wastebasket, or he said something like that. i suppose he is now retired and on the pension, which is not fair. he does not deserve that pension. i would like for someone to show that footage so the people in this country would realize -- a lot of people are not aware of what has been going on and is still happening. guest: i do not know about that footage. i have heard the story. if anybody wants to see some footage, go to the naacp web site and look at the full tape of miss sherrod. see it in i fullness, not just the snippet that caused the furor. it is the real story of a woman who, as she put it, the white man came to see her while she was working for a group helping black farmers -- she did not help him totally at the beginning. she helped him some. later, she sent him to a white lawyer who did not help him. he called her back. she was the one who intervened and helped him save his farm. you have seen him on television saying this is a good lady who really helped. it is such a tragedy that she was fired under these circumstances. it is so good that the secretary has apologized and president obama has called her. it is a real racial drama in the united states. host: from your coverage of the usda, do you think that bringing her back in some sort of ambassador role would be a good thing? guest: i definitely think it woulde a good thing. i do think that she is certainly capable of holding a job on a national level. she had been so good on television in the last few days. you can see her going around the country and talking about these things. host: for our viewers, if you do not have time to go to that site, we will air shirley sherrod's c [captioning performed by national captioning institute] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2010] >> tomorrow on "washington journal," we will look at whether using private contractors compromise the security. we will also have a discussion on how on-line social networks and the media sites are used to promote the conservative agenda. "washington journal, live at 7:00 p.m. eastern, on c-span. >> this is c-span, public affairs programming. next, the hearing into the gulf of mexico oil explosion -- oil rig explosion. then the gulf coast cleanup briefing. then charles rangel and the allegations of ethics violations. . . . >> mr. williams, please rise. >> rise. >> please raise your right hand, sir. a false statement given to a governmental agency is punishable by fine or imprisonment under the title. knowing this, do you solemnly swear that the tesitomy you are about to give is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you god? >> yes sir, i do. >> thank you, sir. please be seated. >> captain, i'm scot bickford. i'm representing mr. williams here, today. >> yes, sir. can you spell your name for the reporter? >> b as in boy, i-c-k-f-o-r-d. >> thank you, sir. >> mr. williams, for the record, could you please state your full name and spell your last, sir? >> my name is michael keith williams. w-i-l-l-i-a-m-s. >> thank you, sir. >> by whom are you employed? >> transocean. >> and what position do you hold with transocean, sir? >> chief electronics technician. >> and how long have you been the chief electronics technician? >> approximately six months. >> prior to your becoming chief electronics technician, what was your positions within transocean? >> electronics technician prior to that for a period of one year and prior to that i was a roustabout. >> and how long were you a roustabout, sir? >> with transocean, two years. >> were you a roustabout with another company as well, sir? >> no, sir. >> did you have any other oil and gas experience outside of transocean? >> none. >> ok. as chief electronic tech, can you please briefly describe your job responsibilities on board the deepwater horizon? >> first and foremost job responsibilites included maintaining the fire and gas systems and any and all electronic signaling devices throughout the rig. >> can you give me a background of your experience? >> i was in the united states marine corps and i was certified avionics technician on aircraft. that was the education level i used to achieve this job. >> can you indicate where you were located at the time of the incident? what i was in the e.t. shop. >> could you give us your best recollection of that day up to the event? >> starting at the time i will cub? >> yes, please. >> monday was a short chain today which would have been the 19th. i got about five hours of sleep the night before. we rotate from days 2 nights and from nights to days. nothing real unusual that day. it we were in a holding pattern, waiting for rig for operations to finish a cement job -- a floor operations to finish a cement john. we have pressure everywhere. they may get a no-go zone. i had some housekeeping items that needed to be taken care of. i needed the starboard crane that had been changed out during routine maintenance, and i had gone up to reset the limits as part of my job scope. the electrical limits for the boom after they changed up the cable. we stayed for approximately an hour. i took the chief mechanic with me, who was new to his position to familiarize him with the operation and give him an idea of what i do verses what his responsibilities on that same job would be. we went up to visit with the crane operator. we went through the limits. we stayed for approximately an hour and conducted some tests and made sure that the boom could go all the way down and all the way back up. we tested the limits. i proceeded back to my shop to take care of the rms requirement for that job. i needed to go put notes in the system and what my man-hours -- and lock my man hours -- log my man-hours. >> was anything that indicated there was a problem going on? >> i was on the phone with my wife. i have a paga rack. there is one forward and one half. -- one aft. during our phone conversation, we heard a gas flow will be announced -- level being announced. my wife actually heard the announcement through the telephone and asked if i needed to get off the phone. i told her that it was just an indication to make everyone aware of what the gas levels are. i had become somewhat immune to them because we got them so frequently. i did not even hear them anymore. we were getting gas back continually on this well. when the levels reached 200, that is the cutoff for outside work and that is one answer concerning myself with gas levels. i know that they are high enough that i do not need to be making sparks anywhere of any kind. that is when i started panicking. that was the only indication that i had that something was not necessarily out of the ordinary, but something to get your attention. >> after that occurred, did you hear anything, engine over speed or any thing will you were in your shop? >> could you rephrase that? >> was there anything out of the ordinary after you heard that alarm? was there any sound that indicated engine over speed or any kind of hissing? >> what happened next was that i heard a hissing noise and a thump. my shop is located directly below the riser package. it is not uncommon for the operators to run that in reverse to retract it out and it would hit the mechanical stops in the back and would literally thump in the shop. i heard a his and i assumed it was a hydraulic lift -- a hiss and i assumed it was a hydraulic lift. at that point, i got off the phone with my wife and told her that i needed to go check this out and make sure we did not have hydraulic will going everywhere. within seconds of that, i started hearing beating -- beeping. it is coming through my ventilation system. there is a cross ventilation system and i could hear the panel beeps, our local panel alarms. -- of which are local panel alarms. i wanted to know what was going on. i was trying to put this together in my head. we have the bomb, the hissing -- the thump, the hissing and then the beeps. i heard the engine start to rev. my shop is located directly center of the rig with engine number three on my portside and engine number four on my starboard. i know which engines are on line at any given time. i could hear engine no. 3 star to rev up -- start to rev up. the guardians were way above what i had ever heard before. it was continually and steadily rising i knew that we were having a problem. all the lights in my shop popped. the light bulbs themselves started to pop. i knew really -- i knew we were in trouble. i grabbed a door handle and the engine goes to levels let is higher than i can even describe. it is spinning so fast -- its soft -- it stopped spinning and then there was a huge explosion. >> after that initial explosion, were there additional explosions? >> there was. that explosion blew the fire door that was between me and those spaces of the hinges. it blew the fire door and myself across the shop. within seconds, the co2 system started discharging. the co2 controller was inside my shop as well. i could not see anything. i could not breathe because of the co2. there was no oxygen. i crawled across the floor and found the opening and made my way out. i had a small flashlight in my pocket that i put in my mouth to try to see. i still could not see. i made it to the next door by a seal and stayed on my hands and knees because i could feel the heat and i knew that if there was going to be in the oxygen at all, it would be at the bottom. as i reached the next door, i reached up and grabbed the handle for it and then it exploded. that was explosion no. 2. >> what was the time frame? >> i have no recollection of time. that explosion pushed me back 35 feet into another wall. as i clear that door, i remember getting are really angry. i do not know why i got angry. i was mad at the doors. the doors were beating me to death. two doors in a row hit me right in the forehead. it planted me against the wall somewhere. my arm would not work. my left leg would not work. i could not breathe. i could not see. i knew that i had to get outside and get some fresh air. the co2 was overwhelming. as i am crawling through the area, i crawled across the bodies of at least two men. i do not know their condition and they are not responding. i assume that they are dead and i keep moving because i know that i am in no condition to help them. i can barely tell myself of this point. -- help myself at this point. the flooring was elevated about 2.5 feet. all the panels were missing. i was tripping and falling for this grid worked -- through this cribwogridwork. i could finally see light and i assume i'm headed in the right direction. eventually, i make my way outside. i turned to the right, and i knew what little bit of breeze we had was coming off the starboard forward bal. -- forward bow. you always walk up when of fire and smoke. i turned to the right, and as i did, i got my bearings and got my eyes cleaned out where i could see and i noticed that there was no walkway. there were no hand rails and there was no stairwell left. one more step and i would have been in the water. at that point, i looked up the wall and the exhaust stack for engine number three, the wall, the hand rail, the walkway, all of those things were missing. there were completely blown off the back of the rig's. -- they were completely blown off the back of the rig. i needed to go back to the left and head towards the star birdseye of the rig's. there are two lifeboats their. -- there. what i saw, what i heard and what i felt, i seriously considered launching a lifeboat by myself. i knew that something really bad had happened and it was not going to get any better any time soon. i had an inclination that this was worse than anyone could expect. i thought about it for a second and i remembered that i have responsibilities. i have a emergency station to go too. the problem was, my emergency station no longer existed. i made a decision to put my life jacket on right there and try to make my way to the bridge, which would be my secondary muster stations. -- station. i made the determination that if i could not make it there, i will launch the lifeboat by myself. the hissing noise has turned into a full-blown war and i look at the dog house and the derek. the dog house is on fire and half of the derek is on fire. it is then that i realize that we had a blowout. i made might way of wind and walked across the main deck, all the way forward to the -- my way of wind and walked across the main deck, all the way forward. i told the captain that we have no power and no ecr. he looked at me with a dazed and confused looked and i told him that we have no ecr. it has blown up. engine number three has blown up. we need to abandon ship, now. i just kept saying it over and over and over. at one point, i was told to come down, sit down, we are working on it. my supervisor walked over and assessed my injuries. he went looking for medical supplies and could not find any. he'd found a roll of toilet paper and began to try to stop the bleeding. i got enough of it out of my eyes so that i could see. i got an of toilet paper on my head to stop the flow of blood into my eyes. i remember him asking about the standby generator. he was asking the captain if he wanted him to start the standby generator. he asked if it would give him any propulsion. he said no, it would give a sliding. it would give us the ability -- it would give us lighting. you have to have the stem by generator -- the standby generators. i would have to say that because you have to go back to the fire, the generator was located adjacent to the dereck. it dawned on me that no one had volunteered to go with him. we were sending a manned by himself to try and start this generator. if there was going to be any success in that, we needed more than one man. i grabbed him by the shirt kaelin told him that he is not going by himself, that i was going with him. he objected to several times. and i said that if i do not go, you do not go. you are not going by yourself. at that point, another man, i believe his name was paul, grab ahold of my shirt tail and went back to the fire. we crossed the main deck and proceeded into the stand by a generator room and made several attempts to start this generator. i do not know how long we were in their. we made several attempts. several times, which tried other things that steve thought of. as an electrical supervisor, he was very familiar with the standby generator. we could not get it to respond. the signal would come on telling me that the batteries were available, but the engine would not do anything. we decided to stop the attempt and make our way back to the bridge and report our findings to the captain. on the way back to the bridge is when i noticed that lifeboat no. 1 had descended and was motoring away. they had descended from the rig's. as we got back to the bridge, the captain announced that he had given the order to abandon ship, that it was a lost cause and we would not be able to fight this fire and that it was time to leave. as we were making our way down the ladder way to get to the lifeboats, lifeboat no. 2 descended. now, the to forward lifeboats are gone. once they go down, there is no coming back up because we have no power. someone made mention of if we could make it to the aft lifeboats. when i left there, they were in good condition. i did not see any physical damage or fire on a life boat deck at all. there would be a huge risk to go back across the main deck. there are several mining -- minor explosions. we did not know which way the derek would fall. we did not want to risk walking through there and having a fall on us. the decision was made to try to launch a life raft. there were three life rafts available to us. after what seemed like forever, we finally got one life raft or deployed -- one life raft deployed. we had an injured man with us. our first concern was to get him loaded. we were having difficulties with the draft and the angle with which to deploy. there was something on up in the arm. i am not sure what. there was a terrible and between the rig and a laugh last -- and the life raft. eventually, they got him loaded and there was a crowd of folks trying to get into the small opening. i remember grabbing two people and backing them up against of walter we had a 20 football kid behind us that would shield us from the derek -- i remember grabbing two people and back them up against a wall. we had a bulkhead behind us that would shield from the derrick. the smoke and heat are intense. there was some type of backdraft occurring underneath the vessel and it was starting to wraparound and feed itself. at that point, i was not sure that the right -- the life raft was going to survive. there was so much heat coming up that i thought the life raft might pop or melt and the people inside would cook. as we were waiting for an opening to develop for us to get into the life raft, when the whole finally developed and everyone had gotten in, the life raft deployed. there were three of us with no life raft and no lifeboats. there are two more life rafts at our disposal, but as long as it took the first one to deploy, i honestly did not feel like we would survive trying to deploy a second one. i did not know if we could successfully deploy another lifeboat in our condition. it was at that point that i am informed the other two individuals that we can stay here and die or we can jump. i remembered that in our training, they teach you to reach your hand around july traffic a run your life jacket and take one step and fall. the problem is, there is no life raft at the bottom. -- there was a life raft at the bottom. we could injure somebody. i remember telling a young woman that we would have to run and jump. i remember her responding that she could not jump to rid -- could not jump. i remember the other individual jumping and told her that he just did it, that she had to do it. she said that she could not do it, so i told her to watch me. i cleared the life raft by a pretty good ways. once i hit the water, when i came back up, i could not see anything again. now i've got a new set of problems. i have a hydraulic fluid, gasoline, diesel, what ever it is that is on the water is now burning my entire body. i cannot hardly breathe. i could feel the heat from the fire underneath the vessel. i started backstroking with the one arm and one leg that would work until i it remember feeling no pain, no heat, and i thought that that was it, that i had died. some time later, i felt the heat again and i kept thinking that i had to swim. i heard something in the distance. i heard, "over here, over here. i did not know what it was, but i started swimming as hard as i could towards it. at one point, i did not hear the noise anymore or feel the pain anymore and then i felt something start lifting the about of the water. a small, orange rescue craft had grabbed me and flipped me over into the boat. i remember telling him that we need to give away from this fire. i was letting him know that the situation that we were in is normal. i said that i could not leave, that i still saw more lights. we retrieved a person, which was the dynamic position operator. at that point, i asked if we could leave. they said that there was a raft in the water and there were more lights on the water. we proceeded to go back towards the rig again. now, we are close enough and i can feel the heat again. i see the life raft, and it is literally still under the rig's and i could see people outside of ththe life raft. we get up to them and throw them a line and i realize one of the man is the chief electrician -- mint is a chief electrician. i told him that i did not have a nice. our policy was no pocket knives. as we pulled the life raft away from where it was, it was still tied off. there is a cutting device inside of the raft to cut the pager line. in the panic in the darkness, they could not find this cutting device. as we try to pull the life raft from the rig, it was not moving. we were simply stuck. finally, one of the gentleman that was in the life raft had a pocket knife and we got it to them and they cut loose and we pull ourselves over. >> thank you. just to go back, you had mentioned that there were several alarms going off indicating that there was a high gas levels when you are on the phone with your wife. is that right? >> that was a high gas little alarmed that came over the intercom system. >> do you know at what level? >> at 200 units of gas, that is where all her work has to cease. >> use said you started hearing panel alarms. what were you referring to? >> there are operating stations for vessel control systems and those are the local panels. that is where they get all their data and that is how the control functions on the rig. >> did you hear any alarm that would indicate a general muster? >> never. >> are you familiar with the alarm that i am referring to? can you explain to me how that is set up as far as your knowledge as to how it is set up? what's the general alarm is set up to inform the entire risk of any of three conditions, number one, fire, no. 2 combustible gas, and toxic gas. each alarm has a particular town. there is a red, yellow and blue color code. you get an audio tone and a visual tone with every general alarm. >> digit either one of those alarms -- did you get either one of those alarms? >> no sir. >> the you know why you did not? >> yes, they were bypassed. how do you know that they were bypassed? >> because i saw it on the screen. the correct word is inhibited. >> can you explain what inhibited means? >> you have four states of alarms. if you have normal operating conditions, and inhibited condition, which simply means that the sensor is active, it is sensing, and it will give the information to the computer, but the computer will not trigger an alarm for it. it will give you an indication, but it will not trigger the actual alarm. there is an override condition which means that the computer will not consider that sensor for any purpose. >> were there any alarms that were in the override position? >> none that i am aware of. >> this, and i am not familiar with the deepwater horizon's alarm system, if you did it in one area, what it shut in the air intake or black? >> that would be a bad analogy because there are no sensors in the engine room. how a system works is that there are several toxic and combustible gas sensors located in key areas. mainly around the drilling package. the drilling package being the key. secondary is all the air intakes. that could be from accommodations to engine rooms to machineries bases, anywhere that fresh air flows. all spaces are controlled with a band that forces air e.m. so that you can consistently circulate air. and when you get this in one zone, the zone should trip an emergency shut down and you should sound of the general alarm. -- sam the general alarm. -- a sound of the general alarm. >> do you know whym this was inhibited? >> i had inquired about a year ago, and the answer i got that -- was that they did not want people woke up at 3:00 a.m. in the morning due to false alarms. >> did you voice a concern to anyone about the possible safety issues of that? >> yes, i did it, to the senior officer on duty and my supervisor. >> who were they? >> one was tom fields, the supervisor that is no longer employed with transocean. the other one was steve, i would have to look at my notes for his last name. >> did anyone else know that the alarms were inhibited? >> in his normal course of duties, he would not see that page. >> who on the raid was in charge of that system? -- on the rig was in charge of that system? >> the operators were the first level. the second level would have been senior dp's . the third level would have been the chief mate. the next level would have been the captain and then often leave the oim. >> were the all aware that the systems were inhibited? >> yes, sir. >> if the systems were not inhibited, would have prevented the initial explosion in your mind? i know that this is your opinion. i am not saying you know the cause of the incident, but if these were in place, would it have allowed personnel to get into an area that was safe and would have caused an explosion on the engines? >> objection, i do not know that this person has the capability to -- >> when you get two detectors to go high in one zone, that is zone should trip. that will control the fire dampers in your power and your 11 switchboards. all of those things should trip. air supply for that affected zone should trip. also, you would sell the general alarm did it is how the system is designed. >> do you know, from your position, if the coast guard had ever given approval to have the systems inhibited? >> i do not know. >> i am going to move onto another subject. yesterday, we had a witness that referred to this well as the " wealth from hell from hell." is this common on the rig? ? >> yes, it is. we have experienced a well very similar to this where we got stuck and had to have wild well control come out and we have to sever the pipe by putting a shot into the pipe. we lost it will completely. -- the well completely. now we are in another quarter of another zone, but this well exhibited those same characteristics. we were getting tons of gas back all the time. we got stuck. we have to sever the pie. it was deja vu all over again. if i remember correctly, it was steven curtis who coined "the well from hell." he is now deceased. >> how long were you on the deepwater horizon? at any time did you hear a bp leader request that a driller bump it up? was he referring to? what's he was talking about the red of penetration -- >> he was talking about the break of penetration. within days, we blew the bottom of the well. >> the drill actually penetrated? >> yes. >> i think you had indicated that you saw chunks of rubber. is that correct? >> yes, it is. >> can you explain that? >> prior to the accident, which would have put it back about five weeks, i was in the central shaft -- in the drill a shafshf. while troubleshooting and working on that system, a representative walked into the back of the doghouse and he had in his hand a double handful of rubber. the only thing they're at that time is the only thing that is rubber down there and that is the annular. as he delivers these chunks of annular rubber, a look at the senior supervisor -- i look at the senior supervisor and i asked him what the hell that was. he said it is no big deal. that is normal. >> who is that? >> that would demarcate -- mark hague. it took me a few days to understand or to formulate why we were getting chunks of rubber back. there was an incident prior to that when we were in testing mode and the annular was in close around the drill pipe. i got a call from the nighttime tool pusher to come investigate whether or not there was an input to the stick to hoist the block wall the annular was closed a. he said that the blockade moved 15 to 20 feet. we need to know why. myself and the electrical supervisor conducted an investigation. it was an informal investigation. we got into the chair log data and dissected the data. what we determined was that one of the styx was moved into positive direction. we could not positively determined which stick. the tax system inside the log was not accurate enough. it's an awfully -- it simply said joy stick a and joystick b. we did confirm that there was joy stick input. -- joystick input. we confirmed that it was pushed but we could not confirm which stick. one of them have been given an input demand -- command. the annular was closed prior to chunks of rubber coming up. >> who is tommy daniels? >> tommy daniels is the electrical supervisor. keeping on the topic, on the panel, was there ever a problem with a pressure regulator valves? >> yes sir, there was 3 >> could you elaborate? >> at about the same time of the inadvertent stick movement, and there was an issue with the bop control panel purge system. how that system works is the dog house is purged, so it is positive pressure and the panel inside the dog shaq is also purged, so that you have two purged systems working simultaneously. another tool pusher had held the back door open to the doghouse for an extended period of time in the drilling shaft lost purge. -- and the drilling shaft lost purge. during this extended time frame of him having that door open, someone had opened both of the glass access doors to the b of the control panel, and it lost purge. i got a call from the ad on tower which was also one of the deceased, dawn clark. i was told that i was needed to the record immediately, that the panel was dead. buy it -- before i got up there, marquette already arrived -- mark had already arrived. i informed him that i had worked on that system on the last rig moved and that i had discovered what the issue was with it. i told him i could get it started an automatic so it would work properly. -- in automatic so it would work properly. the repair that i made was really not a repair. it was a true to the system to give it to start an automatic mode. once it started, it would keep running until it lost purge. when it loses purge, the whole purpose is to power it off because it thinks that gas may be in there or something that is combustible. i had trusted to run on automatic, so it was running in automatic mode for a period of weeks. it was not until it lost birds that turn itself off and i asked mark if he wanted me to started back in automatic. his exact words were, "no, and the damn thing has been in bypass four years. why did you even mess with it? as a matter of fact, the entire fleet runs in bypass." >> earlier, when i ask you a question about the chunks coming up, you made reference to another problem. >> yes. >> can you tell me what was going on? >> that system is located in the doghouse. it is the main operating point for the driller to control drilling functions. it controls everything from mud pumps to top drive, hydraulics, it controls everything. for three or four months, we have had problems with this computer simply locking up. we even coined a of the term " blue screen of death." inside the doghouse, there is "b chair." there are three chairs. we had ordered replacement hard drives from the manufacturer. we had actually ordered entire nearly new system -- an entirely new system to upgrade from the operating system that it was using. those computers were actually used on a very unstable platform. between the manufacturer and the rig, they could not get the bugs worked out of the new operating system. they could not get the old software to run correctly on the new operating system. our sister raid was going through those growing pains for a spirit we have already ordered the equipment, we were just waiting for them to make it work. in the meantime, we were limping along with what we have. we ordered a new hard drives. they came in and wee got them back running. the chair would run for two or three days, and then it would crash again. tommy daniels was instrumental. i cannot tell you how many hours or days he spent focused entirely on getting these chairs resolved. be new to his position as a logical supervisor, he took it upon himself that he would resolve the issue. -- as electrical supervisor, he took it upon himself that he would resolve the issue. >> the correct -- do you recollect if there was ever an incident when the "a chair" was down? >> not to my knowledge. >> do you know how long ago that incident was? >> not exactly. >> but it was down during an incident. >> it was discussed that the chair crashing caused the kick. the loss of the medications to the drilling package. they have no way to monitor any thing for several seconds. before they could get the "b chair" up, they got a kick. >> i want to go back to something we talked about earlier. when you talk about the pressure regulator valves, you said that it was a policy that it be in bypassed for the entire fleet. >> yes. >> the know anything about the inhibited alarms on the other fleet. is there any thing you can think of? >> when i was on the deep water millenium, i was dirt out of bed by an alarm. -- i was jerked out of bed by an alarm. >> thank you. we reviewed a few audits on the maintenance of the deepwater horizon. can you touch upon the pipe wrecking system -- racking system? >> yes. >> what was the condition of that? west german. >> jumpe-- junk. >> junk? >> yes. >>that was our number one downte caused. >> in some of your testimony, you said that it had been indicated that the raid had been scheduled to go to the shipyard for repairs. were you aware of that? >> yes, i was. >> were you going to be involved in that? >> my part of it would have been the complete rewiring of both pipe racking systems, top to bottom. >> who was on that to you? >> it would have come down from the electrical supervisor. >> were you aware of an audit that occurred? >> i was, but i was not a part of it. >> did anyone present those items to you? >> no, they didn't. >> one thing that the audit also mentioned was that there was a personnel retaining issue on board the deepwater horizon. is that accurate? >> yes. >> due to have any issues within your means responsibilities because of that? -- do you have any issues within your responsibilities because of that? >> no. >> whatever works have come and assist with maintenance was needed? >> yes sir. >> were they as confident as those others on the rig's? >> to my knowledge, yes. >> where did they come from? >> displaced from other rig's ad new hires. >> or the familiar with the systems they were working on under your supervision? >> the last two that i got from there were not. they were familiar with the electronics, but not our specific electronics. >> do you know who had control over personnel issues? >> no, i do not. >> thank you, sir. i have no further questions. >> mr. williams, just a couple of follow-ups. were you on the rig in 2008? >> yes sir, i was. >> were you familiar with the brown out of that occurred? >> yes, i was. >> can you explain what happened? >> i cannot. i was part of the deck crew, then. it was light outside for us. the only thing that we knew was that the crane shut down. >> you worked on the emergency disconnects system? >> no sir, i have not. >> no more questions, thank you. >> good morning. i just have a few questions. you indicated that you were familiar with the censors. >> yesterday >> would to be familiar with the location of those sensors on the vessel? >> yes sir. >> will be familiar with the locations of the intakes and automatic shutdowns on board the vessel? >> i could find everyone of them. >> you also indicated you were familiar with the pds system as well -- the eds system as well. >> yes. >> i have a couple of schematics of would like to put up and i would like you to go to those and indicate the location of where they are. >> yes sir. [no audio] >> i am going to give you a blue pin. just for purposes of identifying [audio difficulties. >> the diagramming that we have a pierre is the deepwater horizon safety plan. i would like you to go up to that diagram and take the blue marking pen and draw a circle around the gas sensors that you know are located on that level and around the engine room. >> can we pull this out further? >> certainly. >> that's better. >> the engine rooms themselves do not have gas detectors in them. >> are there some located on that level of the deepwater horizon? >> yes. >> can you circle where those locations are? . . >> the main debt vince up here on both sides of the rerig -- te main deck vents up here on both sides of the rick, we are not seeing that shell shakers on this level. >> when those alarms activated, where were you see the indication that they had activated? >> you would see the indication at that ccr and the ecr. >> could you take that blue pen and also draw locate -- -- >> circle around those locations as well? >> thank you, sir. he may sit down. -- you may sit down. i am going to ask a little more information about the gas detection system which you previously described as you experience it on the evening of the 20th. can you take is in a step-by- step fashion and describe how the gas detection system is set up. what happens when an alarm activates, and then the sequence of events that is set in motion by that alarm. >> any detector that is in a normal state can go to a high stake are eight high-high stake, depending on the level of gas or toxins that are present in the atmosphere. when you get to those detectors to go high-tide in one designated zone, or if you get one detector in two adjoining zones, the system esd's at that point should trip, shutting down the air and electricity to that space. at the same time, the general alarm should sound and individual alarm panel said in the ecr and ccr should also sound. >> or the engine rooms in a single zone or are there separate zones for each individual engine room? >> in regards to the fire and gas system, the engines only had a thermal detectors in them. they did not have a gas detector actually in the engine space. the only thing -- the only gas detection had for those is for the air intakes. the index had the gas sensors mounted to them. >> of each individual air intake has a gas sensor? >> not exactly. >> please explain. >> the two circles that i drew on the port and starboard side of the rig, those were " consider the main air intakes for the injuns basis. one side -- for the engine spaces. >> i believe we have been told that each one of the engine turbos has a separate air intake. is that correct? >> yes. >> does each one of those have a separate center? >> no sir, they do not, not to my knowledge. >> when you describe that you basically have to have to alarms activated the hi-fi state within the same zone, what would set that in motion in this series of events that you described on the 20th? >> what would set the alarms in motion? >> you explain that you started to hear the engine over speed and you had heard the gas alarms triggered. >> what i heard were local alarms on the panel. i had no idea what type of alarms they were. i could just to the beep, beep, beep on the panel. i did not know what alarms they were. i did not assume anything. i just knew i had a bunch of alarms coming in one on top of the other. as fast as i could acknowledge them, another one was going off behind it. >> you are not aware of for those alarms were going off as far as location? >> no idea. >> i believe you indicated that the gas detection system is also tied into the ventilation system automatic shutdown process. is that correct restore >> yes, sir pickett could you describe in more detail how that happens? >> we have 30 esd panels located throughout the rig. they are stand-alone, manually operated panels. there is i want to say between 12 and 14 buttons on that panel. each button corresponds to a set of functions that are going to occur if you press it. emergency shutdown for say the drilling package was esd no. 4. i am familiar with that because we just recently tested it. it would have shut down the power to the rich lore, basically, shut down the air- conditioning, hydraulics, the block, it shut it all down. and it shut down the air intakes. so it functioned in manual mode. we never tested the automatic feature, to my knowledge. i never tested the automatic function of it. we did not go introduce gas somewhere to see what it would do. it was just understood that it would work. >> you indicated that when this series of alarms would go off, if you had to in the same zone, it would trigger that esd system. with respect to shutting down a main engine, can you describe the sequence of events that would happen if those alarms triggered? >> if the fire dampers close, you lose your air intake to the engine and the engine would suffocate for lack of oxygen. i can say that thomas daniels explain to me one time that an esd got rid of him accidentally and shut down an engine ventilation intake, and it's up to the fire doors off the hinges in the engine kept running. it was looking for air, and it just literally sucked the doors off the hinges. so those esd's were never tested because of that risk. so the function of them was to snuff out the engines. if it cannot get air, it cannot run. >> are you familiar with the term read saver? kent -- rig saver? >> i honestly do not know. >> we had some testimony from the trechief engineer. is it your understanding, and i refer to that -- i believe is termed a standby generators. what is the difference between a stand by an emergency generator? >> an emergency generator would give you entire read power, where a standby generators is available to do very little, honestly. is there to assist you to get your main generators back on line. >> are you familiar with what happens if you have an engine running and a generator running, and for some reason it trips off the line, is there a standby ready to pick up the load all the time? in this case here, if the no. 3 engine tripped off the line and exploded for whatever reason, there was a designated secondary engine that should have started and picked up the load. >> correct. >> if in fact that secondary engine does not start, what happens? >> within 10 minutes, the standby generators should have cranked. >> he said within 10 minutes. i believe that is also what [unintelligible] explain to us. is it your impression that that restart within 10 minutes is basically automatic, that no one needs to push additional bonds or switches are turnabouts or anything else to make that happen? >> that's how i was b.g.e. that is how i was explained that the system worked. the only testing of the standby generator, to my knowledge, was a manual start, just make sure it would crank and run. >> when the chief engineer was here, he explained to us that when you all went down to the backup generators location to try to start, that he switched it from automatic imanuel. do you recall that happening? >> yes, sir. >> would that be the normal process as far as you understand it to start that generator? >> yes, sir. >> would that be because 10 minutes had not elapsed since the main shutdown -- since the shutdown of maine power plant gregoire >> we did not care about that. we wanted the generator on line. >> thank you. thank you, sir. i have no further questions for you at this point. >> mr. williams, he recently stated a few moments ago the outboard air intakes on the port and starboard side cover all three engine rooms on each side crest or >> yes, sir brigance we have received testimony earlier in the second hearing that there are two air intakes located under the risers feet engine room 3 and 4. are you familiar with those caused more >> yes, sir. they are directly under the riser stake. >> what do those vents fee? >> they are also feeding into the engine spaces. >> you have to import into out war on each side? >> yes, sir. >> all right, thank you. -- you have to importwo in boaro outboard on each side. >> the p a system would be the only other men'means of communication. it was anyone else monitoring at from the bridge? >> there was personnel on the bridge. >> so the people on the bridge, if they saw high-high alarm would then notify the people in those zones that there was a gas situation? >> that was their plan, yes. they were going to be the ones to interpret what the gas alarms did and make the determination themselves to sound the alarm or not. that is the way it was explained to meet your >> who were those people? what position did they hold? >> dpo and senior dpo. >> you indicated that there were some alarms that were bypassed, is that correct? the vessel has a bypass log that is maintained? >> not to my knowledge. >> so who tracked these bypasses? >> the inhibited alarm? to my knowledge, no one track it. >> so if there was other safety devices that was bypassed on the deepwater horizon, to your knowledge, there is no procedure in terms of documenting and remove it -- approving them, closing them out? >> there was for individual detectors. >> but there is no one bypass log that is maintained to track all the items? >> there was a log for individual detectors and sensors, a hand written log. as they would get an erroneous reading or a fault condition that would display, they would write in the logbook and they would call me so i could put it on my list. as far as the general alarm, no law that i am aware of. >> -- note lono log that i am a. >> should they approve these bypasses before they bypass? [inaudible] >> thank you. i was just asking was there a procedure to spell out how these bypasses are documented and tracked. >> just so we are clear on terminology, he is not using the word bypasses. i just want to make sure we are all on the same page. >> is just a general term i use, when the safety device or alarm is not in the proper condition, that some action is taken to bypass or inhibit it, or whatever it is. >> i am just concerned that there are two different modes, one being bypassed and one inhibited. we are talking about an inhibited alarm condition at this point. your question is whether the oim or the vessel master should know about this condition? >> these discrepancies, and how they are followed up and closed out. if there is one that you know. [inaudible] >> when i started in the et schaub officially in april of 2009, the fire and gas system was a wreck. there were several detectors that were faulty, overridden, and completely ignored out of the system due to lack of maintenance. i took it upon myself and my assistant to rectify that, and we got the fire and gas system back up to stufsnuff. i made a point every pitch, when i got out there, the first thing i did was go to the station and see how many detectors were inhibited, how many senses were inhibited, how many were overridden, how many were faulty. because that was my primary concern when i got to the rig, was my own safety. during on it, bp audit, i guess it was august of 2009, they discovered how terrible the fire and gas system was, and it was brought up in their audit. it was actually noted. during that time, there was no tracking of the fire and gas system, to my knowledge. there was one dpo done it this way and another when done it another way. there was no standard procedure for tracking fire and gas. after the audit came the log book. we had an actual, physical block that the senior dpo was the only one to write in it. he or she would write in it when the alarm faulted, what zone, location, everything, and then when it was repaired and who was repaired by, and the date, so that we cannot let fire in gas get in the condition it was when i started. does that answer your question? >> it helps paint a picture here for me. >> you mentioned the bp maritime insurance on it. did you participate in an audit? >> no sir, i did not participate. >> have you ever participate in any external audits or surveys? >> one, abs. >> can you elaborate on that? >> an abs represented came out and my entire function with him was fire and gas. he allowed me to pick which smoke detectors i wanted to put smoke to, which toxic and which combustible. he also ensured that we tested all six of the infrared they are located in the engines basis. we did test each one of those. it was not a pick and choose, we tested all the engines. he was satisfied with the results of the test. >> do you know whether that was for a class survey or was it relating to regulatory -- you don't know. the first part of your answer, something about he allowed you to pick and choose which ones to test customer >> yes, he did. he told me to pick, i recall six smoke detectors, and he gave me general areas of where to pick them, one from accommodations, one from a -- -- machinery space, one from an office space. he let me pick the numbers, and he stood by on the bridge while i went and shot smoke to it to make sure we would get the indication and get the alarm. >> if the abs surveyor was conducting that activity on behalf of the [unintelligible] do you think it was appropriate for him to allow you to pick and choose? >> i thought it was a little strange for him to allow me to pick the ones i wanted. it sure made it easier on me, i picked the easiest ones to get to. >> indicated that during the event when you were up on the bridge and you were asking the captain about starting the standby generators, and he was asking you what about the generator? >> no one asked me anything about the generator. >> he said what does the generator due, is that correct? >> the capt. inquiry about would give us fire pumps, a way to fight fire. >> should he have known that before hand? >> there are a couple of cab drivers out there we could ask the same question to. >> i appreciate that, sir. >> this is not something this man can answer. he cannot judge the captain. [inaudible] >> there is no reason for that. >> your objections are noted. please sit down, please. now, let's back up a little bit. who is responsible for the safety of the vessel and the personnel aboard the vessel, as you understand? >> it depends on whether we are latched up or under way. >> let's say, when you are on the way, who is responsible for the vessel and the personnel on board the vessel? >> the master. >> to the master of the vessel -- should the master of the vessel know what the standby generators is capable of supplying? >> i have not looked at his job -- it was something i heard him ask out loud. it was not directed at me. >> a lot of the testimony we have received relating to the problem incidence of the vessel. has america, how long have you serve that seek -- as a mariner, how long have you served at sea? >> just the three years with transaction. >> are you familiar with international said he management -- saved the management -- how long were you serving on the deepwater horizon? >> just shy of two years. >> did have a safety management system aboard the vessel? >> we had the hs manual. >> can you describe to me what you know about the hs manual? >> help, safety and environmental -- they changed it to h and s menu. that was our bible. that laid out what we could and could not do. >> what is in that? >> a little bit of everything. it is a very thick -- several hundred pages. >> does it describe the relationship between who is in charge, under what conditions they are responsible for that role in that manual question or >> i never read that page, if it is in there. >> any references on the vessel that relate to who is in charge? >> not to my knowledge. >> how about in the hs manual, does it describe how equipment discrepancies it documented, attract, and resolved? -- help equipment discrepancies get documented, track, and result? >> can you rephrase the question? >> does it describe how equipment failures it documented, track, and resolved? >> not to my knowledge. >> how about equipment maintenance schedules press mark >> no, that is not in there. >> so is there any guidance on board the vessel with regard to -- a lot of these maintenance issues, equipment discrepancies, a lot of people side as the reason it is in order. a lot of items did not been completed in that period of time. i just wonder whether there is a system that really documented and follow through on some of these items. so to your knowledge, there is not, on board the vessel? >> the rms system was the forum that i used to track my workload and to document what i have done for any system i have worked on. >> that is the rig management system. so you have the hs manual system that use and then the rate management system, but as for a juneau, in terms of the safety management system on board the vessel, you are not familiar with that quiz more cracks not a stand-alone document, no. >> so the risk-management system, he testified there was not a perfect fit. is that your experience also question or >> yes, it was overwhelming. >> it did not match up with the system on board the vessel, is that correct? >> a lot of the equipment they wanted us to do maintenance on, we did not have. some of the equipment that needed maintenance was not included. there was a lot of redundancy from the impact system, which was the previous maintenance system. when they did the merger, they imported all the data from the impact system, and the corporate [unintelligible] a lot of times would be identical to the ones that came over from impact. sometimes we would have four different listings for the same job. there was a lot of that that we were still working through. i personally put in probably 100 change requests over the previous three or four months, to eliminate some of our work load that was redundant or did not apply. >> so you got this rig maintenance system deployed on the vessel that was not a perfect fit. i understand from the testimony this morning about the software that also had problems. >> yes. those are not related, though. >> i understand, the overall picture of -- >> the chairs themselves work completely independent and isolated from the entire river network so there was no chance of infection, virus, hacking, there was no opportunity for that. >> and there is no system to track some of these bypasses or abnormal conditions of the system. do you think some of these things, these examples, resulted in the condition that you found with regard to the condition of the gas and fire system when you took over, or do you think there is another reason why the conditions that she found -- that you found -- >> i think it was a combination of reasons. >> i just have a couple of questions. i should have addressed this earlier. you indicated you are familiar with the damper assistance and in particular concerning the engine rooms. if i ask to go up to the diagram, could you indicate the position of those dampers? could you just go up there encircle the location of those dampers for me, please? thank you, you can sit down. >> are there any on the turbos? fire dampers? >> there are, across the back deck, but there is no fire and gas -- there are no detectors that it is back there that i am aware of. >> in the course of your responsibilities in respect to maintenance, did you have any duties with respect to maintaining the fire dampers? >> yes. >> what are those responsibilities? >> ensure that the signal given to open or close the deborah was received and that the actuator function. >> how frequently did you test those mechanisms? >> i did not, the marine department did. >> so you are responsible for the censors but not with respect to activation? >> yes. >> thank you. it has been about an hour and half, so we will take a short break here until 9:45. thank you. [captioning performed by national captioning institute] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2010] >> retired coast guard admiral thad allen earlier today said preparations are underway to move ships away from an approaching storm in the gulf of mexico. the cap on because the broken well would remain in place if an evacuation became necessary. mr. allen says the first effects of the storm could be felt early saturday morning. this is almost 25 minutes. >> good morning. obviously the weather is predominating most of our discussions and activities. i would like to give you a quick status on what is going on at the site. i overflew yesterday coming back from mobile and had a chance to see the rigs out there making prep% -- -- making preparations for what we need to do out there. last night, development driller two and three were directed to detach from their drill sites. this index means they are disconnecting from the lower marine riser package. there in the process right now pulling the riser pipe. that is a very huge section of pipe. it comes in from 40 to 60 foot sections and has to be disassembled and put on deck of the drilling rigs. that is going on as we speak. the second thing going on is the q-4000. that is the one that has a connection to deangelo lot on a blowout preventer. it is in the process of recovering the yellow pawed. that is the interaction between the cables that send signals down that operate hydraulics on the blowout preventer. the goal is, once all the recovery operations are completed, it will be up to the masters to figure out the best location for storm avoidance to ride out the storm. the intention is to put the vessels in a safe place so they can return as quickly as possible to resume their operations. this is not a hurricane, is a tropical storm right now. the forecasts are in the low 40's, so it will be a determination by the folks operating the vessels where to put them to minimize risk to the vessels. we would like to get back on scene and restore the activities as soon as we can. this will always be subject to the conditions out there and the call of the people operating the vessels. the seismic survey vessels, the acoustic vessels and the vessels operating the rov's will stay as soon as possible. we are prepared to leave the well site, based on the advice of the secretary chu and our conversations with bp. we will leave hydrophones at the base of the well should monitor any anomalies that develop. if there is any leakage at the surface, we will see that. while we may have to leave aside kamakura we are prepared -- while we may have to leave the site, we are prepared. if we have to evacuate the scene, we are looking at a limited window, something like 48 hours. our priorities after the passage of the storm is to reestablish the operations of development driller three. the need to find out -- finished the final casing run, the last step before drilling into the relief well bore. just repeat the sequence, a lot of questions about this. we are running the casing first because we do not want to put the mud into the top, because if there is a problem with well integrity, it might affect a relief well. right now the relief well is about four feet away from the macaw on the well. . moconda well. we expect that once the casing is run, it would probably take five to seven days for the cement to drive around the casing run to begin to drill into the annulus to complete the bottom killed. i've overflew the site last night. there is not a lot of oil out there. we have a lot of skimming capacity. we are approaching 800 skimming vehicles. the question now is putting them save out of harm's way so they can return. there has been some question about the fate of the oil during the storm passage. there is a good and bad art to that. the increased activity on the surface can help the in multiplication of the oil and the distribution and bio degradation of the oil. on the other hand, there is a chance of a storm surge driving it up onto the beach where it otherwise would not have been. we are prepared to move out and aggressively attack this once the threat has passed. preservation of life and equipment are the highest priorities. i'll be happy to take questions. [unintelligible] what can tell us about any compromises, and why do you feel [unintelligible] >> first of all, i think we all share the same goals, to minimize the impact on life and property and the ability to protect people and the environment. it makes sense to take equipment and protective. we are working with local leaders to come up with the best way to do that. it is hard to find high ground in some of these parishes. we know we need to put this stuff where it can be protected. in the long run, we are all in agreement that we need to put this equipment where it can be best maintained and be safe for following use. i am still haunted by the specter of flying in over your lens on september 6 as the principal federal official and looking down onto a parking lot full of buses that were flooded and not used for evacuation because they were not moved in time. next question. >> i have a question regarding the seep that was identified within 3 kilometers. that ap has developed a map that shows the two old wells within the radius that you described. i wonder if i could show you this mapping you could point out which of those trust you caught me without my glasses. we can follow up on that. >> again, about the complaints from the parish presidents. is there any sort of protection you can leave in place with this storm coming, or are they going to be completely unprotected? >> it depends on how you determine protection. >> booms and barges specifically. >> booms and barges do not stop storm surge. they will become incapacitated and cannot be applied once the storm has passed. we are talking about moving equipment to high ground so it is not harmed. i will read the technical believe the tactical decisions. it makes sense, just like it makes sense to evacuate personnel. you do not want that equipment to be down there in the damaged where they cannot use it. there are numerous examples of rolling stock that was not moved before katrina that became absolutely useless at that point. >> he said development drill one -- develop a driller 3 and develop thriller to. >> in terms of the other collection equipment, have those been pulled off already? >> they are all still there because they have to pull the riser pipes. they detached last night, but it is an 8-12 hour revolution. it comes up in has to be stored on the drill rigs. they cannot move with 5,000 feet of riser pipe still hanging down. all that is going on right now. they have not physically left the scene. they are demobilizing equipment, raising riser pipes, and the q- 400 has been disconnected from up pod. >> is this a response to a tropical storm bret or hurricane threat, or are they the same? >> tropical storm bonnie has exceeded the threshold that moves it from a depression to a tropical storm. it would have to be over 75 miles an hour to be a hurricane. it is on the lower side of a tropical storm, just into the 40-mile an hour range. it is advisable for safety reasons to go ahead and move. these are decisions taken by platform, based on the survivability. this was all agreed to and we have worked very closely with our science team down in houston right now. we will continue to get seismic data out of there for as long as we can. we know that the different companies that are out there ultimately have the responsibility for the safety of those rigs. they all have a threshold at which point they need to move out for safety. it is all being chlorinated, but we have complete visibility of it. -- is all being coordinated. >> what is the time line, and at what point would to make the decision to pull back the vessels controlling therov's? >> development driller two and three and q-4000 are detaching right now. they will position themselves at an optimal location to minimize the effect on them. if we are talking about cyclonic effect, the lower left quadrant is the place where you have the minimum impact. they will push this in them where they have the best survivability -- they will position them where they have the best survivability. sometime later on today, they will be finished with pulling up their equipment and the people in charge of the vessels will position them in the safest place. we are hopeful, and this depends on the conditions out there, that we can make a couple of seismic runs and continues to gather information to help us better inform the well integrity that has been going on. because of the success we've had, we have agreed to leave the cap on, which we hope will reduce the chance we will have oil being put in the environment while the storm passes. as far as the conditions there, we will remain on scene with the seismic vessels until they reach the sea state where they think they will have time to evade the storm. i cannot give you an exact time. it will be conditions based. >> as i understand what you said, in the worst case, you would lose vision on the cap for 48 hours. >> that is an estimation right now. >> and when the vessels return, it would be another 48 hours until you can resume work on the relief well. >> correct. >> how will the media know if and when you lose eyes on the cap? >> if they have to leave the scene, we will make an announcement to that effect. we will only lose the rov and surface vessels there. we have hydrophones listening down the well for vibrations or anything that would indicate problems with the well integrity. we will be doing aerial surveillance and also in use -- >> miss thompson, your line is open. >> morning, admiral. can you tell me which vessels might stay, and at what see state could they stay? >> i think in general, the last vessels to leave will be the seismic survey vessels. i think we are in a break between the acoustic vessels. noaa vessel gunther is ready to deploy. there are three vessels operating the rov's. they will be the last to leave. >> i was hoping you could clarify a little bit more the functionality of the hydrophones that you were speaking up. they are remotely controlled so you will be able to monitor b.g.e. continue monitoring whatever they are picking up remotely even after you pull all the vessels out of the area? who is monitoring that, and our the signals being transmitted back to shore or wherever they are being monitored? >> i neglected to explain that fully, and i appreciate your asking the question. >> there will be recorder attached to it so if something were to occur, we could do the analysis after the fact, based on what we are finding. thanks for correcting that. if you are talking about real time, if the vessels have to depart the scene, are only real- time feedback will be aerial surveillance and satellite imagery. thank you for raising that. >> looking ahead, have you thought at all about whether you will be able to get a better flow estimate ultimately? is that something that will be a possibility now that the cap is likely to stay? >> i have gotten that question quite often. if we don't open the cap again, can we measure the flow rate? there are a lot of sources of data out there that we have already, including the pressure readings that have been taken. we believe there is adequate data out there to establish a flow rate. to be able to remove that capping stack to measure the float may not be the right thing to do. we have used all available data sources we have to get our best estimate of that flow rate, and we will continue to do that. >> can you explain the timeline your talking about, 48 hours that we can expect to see as the storm gets closer, and whether you are attempting to keep all of the valves on the cap close, or is there a chance that any might be open before the vessels leave the area? >> we are estimating only because of the winds predicted and the seas predicted, and when they might start to calm down, we roughly estimated could be 48 hours that we could be back on. it could be more or less depending on the actual conditions. we have made the decision that the vans will remain closed. the capping stack is on. --the vents will remain closed. we are convinced there is enough well integrity to allow us with a good basis for confidence that we can leave the well capped by the passage of the storm, and return as quickly as we can. >> now that you know that the drill ships will have to be redeployed, rather than talk about 48 hours to get started again, can you just give your best guess now on any new target dates for both the static kill and the ultimate bottom kill with the relief well? >> given the fact that they are on scene and ready to go, it will take about 48 hours to lay the casing, and then 48 hours after that we could proceed with the hydrostatics kill with the money going into the top, and five to seven days after that we can proceed with actually drilling into the annulus to begin the bottom killed. that is the sequence once we are on seen in ready to go. it will be conditions based, based on the wind anna sea state. right now it has been withdrawn to 10,000 feet and locked into place. they will have to go back and go backsubsea containment device in the well bore. that will all be dependent on when they get back on scene, and it will be conditions based. >> have three questions about the timing again. when the think the storm will reach the site of the spill? we did think ships can start returning to the site? when the thing you will have a a new estimate of the flow -- when do you think you'll have a new estimate of the flow customer >> we think we will first are feeling the effects of this early saturday morning. we think the passage of the front will occur sometime within 40 hours of saturday morning and early monday morning. we cannot be any more accurate and that right now because the storm is still a ways out. assuming that the storm passes within 48 hours, at some point after that we can look to returning the vessels back onto the scene. it is highly dependent on the weather, the wind, and the unseen conditions. regarding the flow rate, we have a lot of information from the pressure sensors that are there. we continue to develop more information about the integrity of the well itself and will continue to gather more information once we get to the point we can do the hydrostatics kill. that will tell us if we have a precipitous drop in pressure when the mud goes in. it will tell us if we really do have a leak that is producing hydrocarbons. we may or may not take the cap off in the duke, depending on conditions. we will use all the empirical conditions we have to establish the flow rate. >> this will be our last question. >> i wanted to talk a little more about the satellite and ariel information you will be able to get during the storm. as i enter stand it, you will not be able to establish anything about the condition of the well, whether oil will be blowing or not. is that right? >> that is the indication, if oil is coming to this servicthee will see it. we have assess what we feel is the integrity of the well today. we have run down all the anomalies associated with what we found an either ruled out the anomalies, identify the source. in some cases is leak woulleakae have no anomalies that have not been run down and investigated and discussed between bp and the science team. the main issue of integrity has to do with the low pressure we encountered when we started. if the reservoir had been depleted, that would account for the low pressure when we started. we have started to come up with reasons why the well might be depleted, and we have not exhausted all those. that is the reason the seismic testing will continue. we are trying to create a virtual 3d mri. in the absence of finding those, it would support the assertion that the reservoir was depleted, resulting in the low pressure readings we found. we were all confident enough based on the resolution of the anomalies that were encountered that it was in the best interest of the operation and minimizing the impact on the environment to keep the well capped as we move through the storm passage. thank you. >> thank you very much. thank you all for joining us. >> next, new york congressman charles rangel's response to allegations of ethics violations. then president obama discusses the new financial regulations lot and other matters. after that, house majority leader steny hoyer talks about the economy and job creation. >> tomorrow on "washington journal," a look at whether using contractors to pursue intelligence compromises national security. a usa today reported examines how much has been spent on house and senate races to the end of june. erik telford describes how on- line social networks and media sites are used to promote the conservative agenda. "washington journal," live at 7:00 a.m. eastern on c-span. >> this weekend, the changing world of the newspaper industry. >> i worry about some of the standards and maintaining journalistic integrity as we move from one media world to another. >> clark hoyt, sunday night on c-span's "q&a". >> at a new york news conference, congressman charlie rangel refused to comment on the latest developments in the ethics investigation looking at his fundraising and other activities. an ethics subcommittee thursday said the congressman has violated house rules. mr. arango could face a trial before his colleagues on the ethics committee in september. details on the charges against him will be announced next thursday. this is just over 10 minutes. [applause] >> everyone is ok? take your time. take your time. well, thank all of you for coming on such short notice. my lawyers are going to kill me, because they say the best thing in my best interest is not to make any comment, but i notice that this morning there was a crew of television people when i came to the office. there was a crew of television people, and i assume with this large a turnout, that i should expect that they would be with me. i don't know how to say no comment. it is a very difficult thing for me to turn away reporters who are doing their jobs. for close to two years, i have been saying, would you please wait until the ethics committee completes its investigation. it has been awkward for me and it has been altered for you. they have completed their investigation. . . >> i had a very good conversation and apologized for the way i treated him on television. it is awkward when you cannot give answers to questions. sometimes reporters feel compelled to go beyond what i can do. i am restricted to a note, i have not gone beyond that someone said why have a press conference if you and not a nswer any questions, why would you have it? but there still follow me and they know it, maybe i would be able to say that i met with you and i told you what i had to say. i do have congressional work to do. i can tell those people that will be with me that come thursday we will be able to move forward together if there any questions in reference to what they said, i will be glad to take them pre. >> [inaudible] >> i have to really consider the process that i am going her and respected. anything i say it did i am here to tell you something that is awkward. the investigation is over. come thursday, we will be talking about what? the allegations. as most of the know, all of the allegations referred to the ethics committee to investigate. >> when he said to them, the city one to speak to other democrats. [inaudible] >> first of all, i am taking this one step at a time. i do not every member using the world hopeful " trial." i'll be glad to see what happened on thursday. i am not the one that called this. >> do you not consider this a trial? >> now you are dealing with the words. i want you to be dealing with facts. you know the allegations. you will be able to get the report. i want you to analyze it. and i am not even asking you to be fair. >> are you looking forward to this? >> held no. -- hell no. when his right mind to be looking forward to this. i knew one thing. this is on him run than just an ordinary citizen. i want to make certain that before this election, allow people to know who charlie rangel was and is proud to be. >> what kind of responses have the gotten from other democrat? have you heard from people supporting you and the cheering you on? >> i really do not see how many come like that could be very useful and the personal -- in the purpose i asked you to come here. that is objective step. i'm here to talk to fax. i am relieved that i do not have to tell you what you should be so annoyed in hearing, would you please wait until the investigation is over? >> [inaudible] talk about the difficulty. >> i am glad you raised the question. i've not had to explain myself to my family and friends and constituents. it is coming together. it has been a rather moving but very difficult experience. >> were you involved in settlement talks? >> i can really answer that. that is referred to my attorney. >>, where the talks going on? >> i do not wish them good luck. >> do you feel you did anything wrong? >> i wish feelings had sent in to do with the facts. it does not produc. >> do you consider yourself running through the primary and the general? >> for people have filed. . i do not intend to get them off the ballot. i run every day of every week of every month i am in office. >> any scenario as a result of this process they can do by not running for reelection? >> nothing that i can think up. i think that is about it. i apologize for not being able to go further. i do hope you can get some satisfaction that this thing is coming to a head. it is annoying. it is hurtful. it is harmful. we can see what we have to work with. let me thank you so much bur. i would like for all of the people that have read what they had to read, how awkward it has been for me to constantly have to say, please wait until the ethics committee complete this investigation. i cannot think of anything that really does mean more than to be able to say to my constituents, this is the results of the investigation. so that they would know who charlie rangel really is. those of you who know me know that saying no comment is very difficult for me. for anyone that mean curl things have been said, and not being able to respond is a very awkward thing. to my family, friends, and constituents, i can only say without dispute that i will not let you down. thank god. the report is complete. then we will do like anything else. >> this process is hurtful. do not you also think it is hurtful to the political waters? >> you are getting involved in something i have not been trained in. pain is pain. i thank you so much for coming. >> the house subcommittee responsible for determining whether congressman rangel committed any ethics violation will hold an organizational meeting thursday. we will have live coverage on c- span3. president obama speaks about three new bills he signed into law this week, an overhaul of financial regulations, an effort to reduce wasteful government payments, and an extension of unemployment benefits for the unemployed. he also called on congress to send him a bill to help certain small-business. >> first, i find a wall street reform bill that will protect consumers and our entire economy from the recklessness and irresponsibility the lead to the worst recession since the great depression. it'll help us put a stop to the practices of mortgage lenders and credit card companies and ensure that people get the strength -- straight information they need. this is underscored by the report issued by kenneth feinberg this morning, identifying a number of companies that continue to pay out lavish bonuses at the height of the financial crisis even as they exited billions of dollars in taxpayer assistance. i signed a law that will improve our ability to crack down on the proper payment made by our government. every year, the government wastes tens of billions of dollars on erroneous payments to companies that have not paid their taxes or to prison inmates even to people that died a long time ago. today we blocked these payments. it'll give this new tools to do so. it does say the least $50 billion by 2012, savings that are more important today than in forever. we do not have money to waste. we finally overcame the procedural blockade of a partisan minority in the senate to restore unemployment insurance for 2.5 million americans fell out of work. we've made enormous progress this week on wall street reform, on making sure we are eliminating waste, and providing assistance to people who are out there looking for work pra. our goal is to make sure people who are looking for a job can find a job. that is why it is important for the senate to pass this to cut taxes and expand lending for americans and small businesses. a small bill that contains these measures may come up for a final vote in the senate and the next few days. with this small-business bill, we will set up a new lending fund to help community banks offer small-business men and women the loans they need to grow and higher. it'll help states encourage more private sector loans to small businesses and industries like manufacturing. they have been hard hit by this recession. it will expand our small- business initiatives and doubled the size of loans can take out. it will unlock the growth of our entrepreneurs. it'll do what i have been advocating, eliminating capital gains taxes entirely for key investments in small businesses. last night after partisan delays, the senate took an important step by supporting a lending fund and the overall small-business jobs bill. i want to make senators mary andrew, and george lemieux. i was heartened that senators lemieux cross party lines to help pass the lending provision last night. i hope we can finish the job and passed the job plan without delay and without additional partisan wrangling. the small-business men and women who write to me cannot afford any more political games. they need us to do what we were sent here to do. they did not send this year to wait a never-ending campaign. they sent us here to do what is best for the united states of america. they sent us here to govern. that is what i hope we will do in the remaining days before congress takes its research. thank you very much. [captioning performed by national captioning institute] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2010] >> next, house majority leader steny hoyer talks about the economy and job creation. after that, the coast guard and interior department hearing into the gulf of mexico oil rig explosion. been adamant that alan on the gulf coast cleanup efforts. >> discussions by authors and activists of a tear in a conservative ideas. the author of the best selling book "infidel"on her new book in the life she left behind on sunday, the rose bowl reading festival. -- the roosevelt reading festival. nine >> steny hoyer outlines the democrat legislative agenda heading into the november elections. he also talks about initiatives for the democratic sector. the sencenter for american progress action fund posted this month. >> i am the executive vice president. but to me say we are very honored to have house majority leader steny hoyer with us here this morning to talk about the and number one question in the country today. what is the best plan to create high-quality jobs and long-term economic growth? a poll found that half of americans surveyed across all the political spectrums as the most important problem facing the country today. 31% said the economy and 22% saying unemployment in dodd and sing their problem. the economy is job one projec. >> it was one on progress on every single indicator. the bush era was one of flooding returned. in contrast to the $22 million a create a climate of growth under the bush administration was worst in any positive cycle in 60 years even for the onset of the great recession which is not causes over a million jobs. the boom bust course has failed. to many seem to want to return to the policies of the past. the new administration congress is hard of work to repair the broken foundation to stabilize the economy and repairing the oversight and beginning the process of ending the kerb. -- curb. we must turn off all our attention to rebuilding a new economy. we must attend to the quality of the job center being created. we must step back and develop a national strategy for long-term job creation. professor of leadership has spurred growth in which investment and technology that support our nation's investors as they create quality jobs for american workers. no one understands that objective and that strategy better than our speaker today. steny hoyer has been a great friend. he needs very little introduction. but me briefly say he started his career in 1966 when he both graduated from georgetown university law center and won a seat in the maryland senate. in 1975, he would elected president of the maryland s. in '81, he is elected to represent the congressional district. with speaker pelosi, he has kept an unrelenting focus on america's struggling workers. we look forward to hearing his thought about the right course to take. please come and join me in welcoming steny hoyer. [applause] >> thank you very much. i am always pleased to be here. i am particularly pleased to be here facilitated by the action fund. thank you very much. i had the opportunity to speak before we came in. i am always pleased to be here with my good in here from martin frost. thank you for being here. america has faced its share of trials, at times when not as our economy but our nation seemed in decline. each time with ingenuity, hard work, and are distinctly american optimism, we have built our way out and we have to emerge stronger. no one doubts this as one of those tested times. the question will be in front of us is not where we are. it is where we go from here. it is a choice between too dramatically different direction. our decision comes down to three questions, how far we have come, what remains to be done, and which party and will keep moving us forward? first, how far have we come? but consider an alternate tester. america is facing the worst the economic crisis in a generation. americans are losing almost a hundred thousand of -- $800,000 per month. businesses are forced into laos. innovative start-ups cannot start up. a new president and the democratic congress are struggling for solutions. negotiations break down. congress remains paralyzed. in the end, we do nothing. as a result the nonpartisan cbo tells us we would be looking at 2 million additional unemployed americans. the economy would likely have continued to shrink. retirement savings would have remained devastated. the global recession would have become catastrophic. it was that bleak picture that led former reagan economic adviser martin feldstein to endorse substantial deficit spending to pump life into the economy saying "i do not think we have a choice." and a thinking about how worse- in is not much comfort to anyone who is struggling to find work. any honest look to our economy has to come -- has to start with them on this conversation about the disaster we have at this time averted. for a year-and-a-half ago, economists were talking in all seriousness of what the risks of a second great depression. instead, would stabilize the financial system, injected demand into the economy, and created jobs. in fact, almost as many jobs in the first six months of this year as did george bush created in the eight years of his presidency. the private sector as added jobs for six straight months. by comparison come into more than two years after the end of the last recession for our economy to return to the sixth consecutive month of job growth in the private sector. that progress data would vital investments not is in our immediate recovery but in the foundations of prosperity for years to come. the are rebuilding roads, railways, bridges. using funds to help local governments invest in infrastructure projects in the most. we are investing in our children's future. we can teachers in the classroom and have more young americans reach their goal of a college education. we are helping doctors and hospitals computerized medical records so patients can be treated even more effectively. we have found a clean energy technology that will help save energy and become less dependent on foreign oil. technology that will respond to needs in real time. just as the internet was created was support of the government, today will bring the groundwork for transformational technologies that can shape our economy and create jobs. for 98% of americans, taxes are now lower than they were in any single year under president obama. despite republicans' efforts to demonize the policies, it cannot refuse the nonpartisan analysis that shows that they have been responsible for as many as 3 million jobs. they cannot enjoy those investment in a fit in their own communities, not in the house minority whip himself as toasted 3 job fairs erotically featuring employers 11 fitted from such federal funds. it is a policy he voted against. in fact, while house republicans voted against, more than half of the republicans have taken credit for them in their districts. brazil has signed into law a higher at the cut employer taxes for every unemployed worker hired back. democrats have also passed legislation helping to support $28 billion in new lending for small businesses. we hope to do another 30 elem leverage into 300. senate republicans do not see it that way. we have protected americans from abusive credit card lending practices, making the biggest practices and lending his street without adding to the deficit it will have an important jobs impact. it will put american enemies on a more even playing field. president obama has just signed the floor and legislation to prevent the referee's back on the field and told wall street accountable for the reckless conduct a that a crash our economy. wall street reform will create a bureau and make sure that borrowers and lenders live up to the common-sense standard of responsibility and honesty. it and tarp and interest because of any financial crisis will be borne by the financial industry, keeping taxpayers off the hook for future bailout, which was requested by president bush. wall street reform will remove economic uncertainty, hoping to free up a $1.80 trillion in cash sitting on the sidelines. it is poised to be redeployed. there is company did to uncover. the more our financial system gets back toward its core purpose. it helps allocate capital for families investing in their future into entrepreneurs investing in job creation. all of those policies have a common thread. after a lost decade, middle- class americans now have congress and administration that is helping it to make up lost ground. . . >> they are looking to go back to problems that the middle claste class faces today. as a matter of fact the republican of the campaign committee whose job it is to recruit members to come and make policy, said, and i quote, we need to go back to the exact same agenda. meaning of course the bush agenda of the -- of the 2000s which have left us in the deepest economic recession we have seen in three-quarters of a century. by almost all indicateses it was an agenda that failed. that is the agenda to which the chairman of the campaign committee says the republicans want to return. democrats on the other hand are putting forward u noaa new ideas to drive our recovery. particularly when it comes to our vital msg sector. that's why house democrats are launching the make it in america agenda. a strategy to boost american manufacturing. for generations -- for generations americans looked to the sector as a source of economic vitality and good paying jobs, and a source of pride. america has always been proud to be a company that makes things. somewhere that jobs and that -- those jobs and that pride are a thing of the past. democrats don't believe that. we're committed to regaining america's e-manufacturing edge. the make it agenda will encourage industry and improve msg infrastructure and innovation and strengthen the american work force and create a level playing fill for american manufacturers that compete worldwide in this flat world of which tom friedman spoke. the make it in america agenda is made up of a range of bills that will come to the floor in the coming weeks, including enhancement act which passed the house on wednesday. it makes it easier for american companies to get the materials they need to manufacture goods here. the sectors act which passed this week, it foreigns -- forls partners to train workers no needed jobs. the national strategy act which will direct the president to develop a manufacturing strategy for the nation every four years. the -- to end the trade deficit now act which will lead to policys to reduce the trade deficit. the clean energy and technology manufacturing and export assistance act will insure clean energy firms have the information and assistance they need to compete at home and abroad. the ways and means committee will hold hearings next month, actually if september on -- the issue of china's currency policy, legislation introduced by tim ryan. these bills of course are just a start. this is not an agenda just for the balance of this year. this is an agenda for the long-term. there's more to come. many house democrats are coming forward with ideas that can contribute to our manufacturing revival. let me say, i welcome ideas from the republican colleagues and for the american public, particularly the msg sector itself. all of these efforts will bolster, bolster president obama's plan to support two million more jobs by doubling u.s. exports in five years. it is a plan that is showing success with exports up significantly over last year. and they will build on the impact we already had since the beginning of this year. our private sector has actually created 100 -- 136,000 new manufacturing jobs. i hope the republicans as i said, will join us in working toward strengthening and expanding and growing our manufacturing sector. i'm glad that many of them supported the manufacturing enhancement act. the sector's act in the house. there seem to be reluctance but ultimately they reconsider those no votes and turned a yes. i am glad that we're seeing some bipartisanship in this make it america agenda. the republicans have an 18-month pattern of standing with near u nan mussness. these are waiting to be enacted. theyifies partisan problems. and one has won bipartisan support in the past. for instance we help business develop new technologies. we would further invest in science and technology and engineering and math education. we would encourage entrepreneurship and investment by letting businesses deducts startup expenses and exempting small business capital gains from taxation. we would establish a now fund without decreasing the deficit to help banks lend to small businesss. because 45% of small businesses seeking liens were turned down last year. we would stepped as well the r & d credit. we wouldnd stax breaks that encourage corporations to outsource american jobs overseas. republicans are fighting to keep that loophole open. democrats want to close it and keep more jobs here in america. republican obstruction has been extended to unemployment insurance as is so well known by the american public. a time when there are still five applicants for each new job opening, unemployment insurance is one of the most effective ways of stimulating demand because of -- of course it is quickly spent because it is essentially needed. republicans claim we can't afford it. i'm pleased that the -- president obama was able to sign the unemployment bill that we passed yesterday. that money will be coming into the economy. but also from a moral standpoint, it will provide suss stenn nance for families in deep distress still this the economy. take this msnbc analysis of congressman's session and senator cornen on meet the press just last weekend. quote, both sessions and corner were unable or unwilling to discuss what republicans -- would special do on the deficit. when nbc's david gregory demanded specifics and details of painful choices, republicans were willing to make none. sessions didn't of a single one. that's the same thinking that condoned foreign borrowing under president bush and did severe harm to our long-term prosperity. democrats understand that short-term deficits have buenes ces for our recovery. in my view continue to be necessary. if we're going to bring this economy back we will never as i said in a speech a u few weeks ago solve the deficit problem if we don't solve building and growing the economy challenge. >> for the same reason the house will stepped middle class tax cuts for the next year, but we expect the senate to act first as speaker pelosi said yesterday. all of the job creation measures i discussed along with the middle class tax cuts represent only a small fraction of our real long-term deficit problem. we do have hard choices. hard choices to make about our fiscal future and i've spoken about them as i said a few weeks ago in detail. but in making those choices, we have to steer between two grave mistakes. one would be following republicans that want to use our structural deficit as an excuse to put breaks on recovery. while millions are constitutional unemployed. that would put more americans out of work p-. it would actually increase deficits we're trying to reduce. another mistake would be putting our -- ourselves deeper into debt by making tax cuts for the wealthy permanent. republicans seem to be able to hold both of these positions at the same time. a combination of reckless borrowing and middle class neglect, that frankly characterized the previous administration. that brings us to the last question. we pulled our country off the edge of disaster. we know what needs to be done for the americans who are still struggling. finally, therefore, the question becomes which party can you trust to do that. we know what economic philosophy looks like in practice. cut taxes for the wealthiest, cut regulations that guard against everything from wall street excess to oil company's negligence. we know what happened when they had unchecked chance to implement them a few short years ago. they drove our economy into the ditch. the deepest ditch we have been in three quarters of a century. they created a decade of stagnant incomes. during the eight years of the bush administration as i said, the worst job record since herbert hoover. a stark contrast with the clinton administration that created 21 million private sector jobs in 96 hons as opposed to the net 1 million jobs created during the 96 months of the bush administration. oaf eight years of president bush, our economy added just a million private sector jobs. it was president bush who ran a 2.13 trillion dollars in deficits. and wiped out the biggest surpluss in american history. an inheritance of 5. trillion dollars, a national debt of some five plus trillion dollars turned into a national debt of 10-plus trillion dollars. that record is not an abrasion how far. a deck -- in decade after decade, the democrats performed better than on the economy than republicans. some may be surprised to hear that. market analysis -- analysts larry greenberg studied administrations from john kennedy to george bush and found that, and i quote, jobs grew more slowly for each of the republicans than for any of the democrats. princeton political scientist larry bartal studied administrations from truman to bush and he found to quote a summary of his work, quote, when a republican president is in power, people at the top of the income distribution experience much larger real income gains than those at the bottom. by contrast, he said, democratic presidents generate higher income gains for all income groups. in 2008, the "new york times" asked this question. and i think this is such a compelling comparison. imagine that starting in 1929 you had to invest exclusively under either democratic or republican administrations. how would you have failed? you make your choice in your head right now. you're probably not surprised at what the conclusion was. under republican administrations, your 10,000 dollars invested exclusively in republican administrations -- if you include the hoover administration would have net -- netted you today, $11,000 733. that's probably not fair. let's take out the hoofer administration which was argue my the -- hoover, which is arguably the worst. let's take that out in all fairness. if we're charitable and take that out, then you $10,000 investment exclusively during the course of republican administrations over the last 70 years would have resulted in $51,211. now i don't know how -- how good you think that is of a return over 0e years, but -- under democraticed a strigses, if you taken that same $10,000 and invested it exclusively under democratic administrations, that $10,000 would be worth $300,671. so said another way, 600% more than if you exclusively had that money grow under republican administrations. so when we talk about -- about republican economic failure, we aren't talking about a passing trend. notwithstanding the fact that i can point out to you that during the course of the clintonned a strigs the dow grew 226%, the s&p grew by about 290% and the nasdaq grew by almost 300%. the aim statistics are all negative during the bush administration. from decade to decade and today, democratic policies have supported innovation, the interest of working people and a better standard of living for all americans. republican policies have objectively favored the privileged and left working americans behind. we may write that off if republicans gave any indication that they reconsidered policies that cretted it. again, as they put it themselves, quote, we need to go back to the exact same agenda. i don't think americans had that in mind and i don't think they have that now. when you remember republican behavior over the past months, that going back to the agenda makes perfect sense. apologizing to b.p. when democrats held it accountable for the disaster in the gulf, comparing to the economic crisis to the size of an ant as boehner did and working for wall street reform and portraying it as a bailout and putting tax cuts for millionaires ahead of the unemployed, i'm proud to put our party's middle class record against theirs any day. but our work is not done. we have stood up to wall street, brought access to affordable health care to all americans, reinstated pay-as-you-go on fiscal discipline and gone to bat for job creation in the face of ideological opposition, again and again and again for the last 18 months. democrats can tell working americans with confidence and with pride, we have stood for your interests. and we met crisis with the optimism that defines our country. and it is best -- at its best and can make a great nation even greater. so often, our leaps have come out of the darkest moments. as president obama said and i quote, in the midst of civil war we laid railroad tracks from one coast to another and a twilight struggle for freedom led to a nation of highways an american on the moon and explosion of technology that shapes the world to this day. and today, if we choose shared growth, over spoils for a few, and our common interest over the special interest, this then too could be a remarkable moment in which we build our way out. we will make it in america once again. thank you so much. [applause] >> thank you. i'm going to start with one question. i'll ask the first round of questions, could i see questions from just the media. if you could wait until a mic comes to you and please identify the organization you're with. before that, let me ask you a question about the tax cuts issue. i see this as emerging to the forefront. help me understand the -- the argument of those who would say that we should be at this point renewing the -- the upper class tax cuts and contrast that, make clear, because i think people are fuzzy, what is it that your party is argue og -- arguing for? and contrast to republicans. >> in 2001 and 2003, the are thinks put in place a policy that cut taxes but reinstated those taxes the next year so they would go up. we have indicated that we believe that -- that at this point in time, with recession, that -- that we ought to have no increase in taxes on middle income working americans. clearly at a time of recession, you want to make sure that working people have the -- the ability to support themselves and their families. so we're going to -- going to -- complete -- or continue the tax cuts for middle income americans. how do we define middle income americans, those making $200,000 or less individually or $250,000 or less as couples. with respect to the -- to the tax cuts for the wealthiest in america, we have a severe deficit problem. those who are doing well will not have their lives adversely affected by continuing to contribute at a rate that -- that provides for the bringing down of the deficit and continuing to invest in the growth of the country. that's the policy that we're going to be pursuing. >> thank you for that overwhelming applause. >> all right. >> middle class taxpayer who is in the back of the room. >> so, please if you bring the mic here. thank you. >> kim dixon at reuters. following up on that a bit. you said that the house -- will pass, will renew the middle class tax cuts for one year. could you talk about the significance of the one year. >> i don't think i said one year. i think there's been 134 discussion about that. that has not been decided how long that -- did i say it in my speech, i don't know that i said it -- >> the next year actually. >> you said it for the next year. >> certainly for the next year, but not necessarily for just -- >> just the next we're. >> one year. >> that's in discussion. the speaker indicated and i think as a result of our discussions with the senate, the senate i think will probably move first on the -- on these and we'll see what the senate does in terms of time frame. we want to make it very clear that the -- that the working americans will not receive a tax increase. >> so you haven't made a decision on how long -- >> no. >> that's still in discussion. >> on the timing of when you'll take this up. before or after the election? >> we're waiting to see when the senate acts. we have one week left to go before the august break. the senate will be in for a couple of weeks. we'll see what they do and we could determine when we get back what roukt we have from them. also the media. thank you. >> thank you. jamie from u.s. trade. i wanted to follow up on the manufacturing issues you were talking about. it seems like the house is poised to act on a number of bills as you enumerated. there doesn't appear to be action on the senate. how -- can you help us understand this? how do you defend defense the accusation -- >> across the board from the senate? >> on manufacturing particularly, how do you explain to someone that this isn't just election politician and these bills really have no chance of actually becoming law this year? >> as i said, absolutely is not election politician. we believe that -- first of all, we have invested a great deal of money in building the economy. we think we had progress on doing that. i make the distinction between progress and success, success is when we have eight million jobs for those people that lost their jobs in the previous election. 2.8 million lost their jobs in the last year of the bush administration. i want to contrast that to the 1.9 million jobs that were created in the last year of the clinton administration. we're making progress but we have not yet had success. this is a long-term -- a -- agenda for bringing back msg. nobody is going to turn a light switch on and all of a sudden have that happen. we need to adopt policies and a stredge to -- thed a stwration needs to come up with policy, to renew our focus on making it in america. it has two means obviously. first manufacturing, making good in america so that people -- can make it in america. have good jobs, and good benefits and a good future. -- for themselves and their children. >> so that -- this is not a question of what the senate could pass in the weeks remaining of this -- of this congress, it is -- it is establishing a principle that we intend to pursue both now and in the next congress. as a major focus of making sure that america grows its economy and -- creates jobs, particularly if the manufacturing sector which has provided such good paying, stable jobs over the past. there's no reason why american workers can't compete with workers anywhere in the world, if they have a level playing field. >> one more media question, please. thank you. >> congressman hoyer from china strayed extra. you -- you have anticipated my question. >> is that a signal? >> i did. that the china currency bill, mr. ryan and mr. murphy's bill is going to have a hearing. is there any doubt in your mind that this -- this legislation fully fits within this initiative and -- and should get treated in the fall? >> there's going to be a hearing. clearly as i said, we need a level playing field. we're prepared to compete with anybody in the world. but we can't compete when the rules are skewed against us. that is what the hearing will address. i'm sure secretary geithner and the administration will look at this and -- at this as well. but we frankly think there are a number of &s in which china is not playing by the rules and -- that our competitors do not have a -- a stable playing field there. i.t. is another area, a proprietary information is another area so that i think -- we're going to look at a number of areas. not just china, although china is obviously a focus of the ryan bill itself. but at other -- other -- other of our trading partners as well. >> we'll open it up more generally, come back up to the front. please identify yourself. thank you. >> dewey harris. imbedded technology, pennsylvania. >> last year, i ran -- as someone asked that this election politician actually it isn't. last year, i ran into you on the hill and asked you about making it in america which is something you talked about. you sent me to your -- your chief of staff and your staff and they worked with us -- i'm a pennsylvania company on -- on technology. so i know that making it in america was something that has been on the agenda and actually you said get somebody in the senate, we did. senator burriss and -- we actually doing it in defense. i would like to know though as part of the make it in america agenda, since it is very important to have -- to have our technology and our circuits a everything made here -- it is start -- it started with defense. are you going to include adding defense into the measure in order to protect more jobs? >> clearly -- number of the pieces of legislation deal specifically with defense, defense acquisitions and obviously we passed acquisition reform as you know. so the answer to that question is yes. >> congressman. >> here comes a tough question. [laughter] >> martin frost, long-time admire of stenny hoyer. >> i didn't set these up. >> this is an interesting question i'm going to pose. probably the single most cynical thing the republicans did on tax cuts was how they handled the estate tax. over a period of years, they increased the exemption so it would help small businesses and family owned businesses and family farms so it wouldn't have to be sold. then they had the estate tax totally disappear there year so that -- that when a billionaire like george steinbrenner dies, his family doesn't pay estate tax. then next year, they revert back to a low exemption which would not be helpful for family farmers and to small business people. congress does not -- has not been able to deal with this issue, do you think that there's any realistic expectation that congress can deal with this issue this year? particularly because if -- if congress does not act, the exemption will go back to a very low level and it won't help a lot of family owned businesses. >> congressman, as you know, i believe that -- that we absolutely should act and must act. i think we will act. the house acted as you know last year to continue the 2009 rates of 3.5 and 46 -- 45% rate. that was responsible so everybody would know they had a $7 million exemption. every individual would know they had a 3.5 million exemption and know the rate of 45%. the cynical interestingly enough fiscally irresponsible ploy by the republicans in 2001 and 2003 to phase out the tax cuts in 10

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