Transcripts For CSPAN Stanley Meiburg Testifies On EPA Employee Misconduct 20160522

Allegations. Theres also testimony from the assistant epa Inspector General, who spoke about some of policy changes that were being and lamented. This hang was held by the House Oversight committee. His just under two hours. The chairs authorize to the current recession anytime. Todays hearing is entitled examining appointment misconduct and epa. Weve addressed this a few times. It doesnt seem to be getting better. We will continue to highlight this as long as a tank. In my opinion, the epa is one of the most toxic places in the feller government tort. If you dont get rid of the employees, wee are doing a great disservice to this country. Most of them are good, hard working people. You have some bad apples at the epa, and they are not being dealt with. They are not being addressed. I look for to talking about this. The Inspector General has done some good, quality work. He and his team. Will continue to do this until the epa has taken care of the problem. Today, the committee is exploring numerouss misconduct at the epa. In addition to the broader responsibility to protecting oversight of the executive branch, we also the committee of jurisdiction for federal employees. Its our duty to explore the problems in the federal workforce. Weve explored misconduct with the epa before. We will continue to do so until we are convinced theres actually been a change. Is committee examined a stronger case of john beal. John bill was a senior epa employer reporting to the air office chief Gina Mccarthy who claim to be a cia spy. But on her nose, this went on for a long time. This person went to jail, having hundreds of thousands of dollars in restitution. Her supervisor get a promotion. Shes now the epa administrator. I have serious questions about. Er ability to administrate when she had she could do it. Office, she has a large these problems continued to persist. Unfortunately, mr. Beales fraud is not isolated. The head of epas office of Homeland Security had a lengthy record of Sexual Harassment that was not properly investigated. Epas region five was mired in allegations of Sexual Harassment and retaliation against those who try to do something about it. Whistleblowers place blame on the toxic culture squarely on the shoulders of susan hedman, who resigned in the wake of the plant water crisis. Representative has testified that there was core, a serious lack of accountability when the manager is the problem. These incidents represent a cultural problem and failure at the epa. Recently, the epa Inspector Generals office was lisa details on the investigation of more than 60 cases of misconduct close in the last several months. Many of these cases contain details. I recognize its an early hour, parents be forewarned. This is not a subject for young kids at any hour. Nevertheless, we need to expose it in order to solve it. One case, a convicted child molester was on epas payroll for years. Even after they learned of the offense. , theo terrible about this epa knows this person is a convicted child molester. In the epa put him in a position to interact with the public. He was out there literally interacting with the public. This person was found to have police sirens, placed on the personal vehicle, on the personal card, lights and sirens, handcuffs, counterfeit adge, it wasnt until probation violation that it actually got highlighted and dealt with. In another case, and epa loyee was found to stall steal thousands of dollars of office equipment, yet was not fired. She admitted taking seven times equipment in the office and taking into a pond shop, putting it in her pocket, and she is not fired. Overshot actually oversaw this person. In his team. But its unbelievable this person was not fired. After her felony theft conviction, she is still employed at the epa to this day. We have a lot of good hardworking people who want and need jobs. It will serve this country honorably. Why the world should somebody ,onvicted of stealing from work a felony conviction, still enjoy the employment and being paid by the u. S. Taxpayers. We have pages and pages of similar cases. One has to wonder if the epas culture and lack of accountability is a contributing factor to tragedies like the king mine spill or the flint Drinking Water from. The committee will continue to investigate the epa until they are held accountable. People make mistakes. We understand that. These are not mistake. These are patterns of misbehavior that are unacceptable. I introduced a piece of letters it legislation that passed the committee in house. The official personnel file which requires a federal agency to record any findings into a separate personnel file. So theseis helps employees cannot just toggle from one agency to another without having the information shared with others. The bill provides an employee basing disciplinary action from superjumbo ship to another agency that would be that would not be aware that negative disciplinary action record. Live another case here with somebody was there were devices and air cards that were used excessively. In one case, a person in one 18,000 on one air card. , and noe traveling restitution. No paying back the government. 4500 that taxpayers had to pay. The punishment was counseling. Not to talk about. The Inspector General has done a good job on this. I look forward to a good, for full hearing. Without recognize the Ranking Member. Thank you. I do thank you for holding todays hearing, examining two men play misconduct at the Environmental Protection agency. This is the third hearing the real held regarding this topic. I encourage the epas response of the allegations of misconduct has improved. I want to be effective and efficient. I do not want to constantly hold hearings and hear about these problems. At some point, we should be able to get them resolved. Employment misconduct is indeed rare. But has this committing has seen Inspector General response to this has taken far too long. The committees hearing in april, 2015, a little over a year ago, i asked the epa and the ig to Work Together to improve the coordination in employment misconduct matter. I did that again so we could be effective and efficient and to get things done. As opposed to going around in a circle. Ive also directed myself to work to record with the epa and the ig to help develop new protocols to improve their disciplinary processes. As result, the epa and the ig a ding their efforts as as they never did before. As i often say, we can always do better. There holding biweekly meetings to share information about investigations. We can do better. There communicating more favorably about administrative actions. Reports senior officials at epa headquarters. But we can do better. The epa and ig have developed expedited procedures for certain cases. The outcomes, from improved coordination are indeed quite promising. Both have stated that the new havees have become decreased the amount of time it takes for actions are reports of employee misconduct. He credits they, new information sharing process to the epa taking action more quickly after the ig completes an investigation. Similarly, mr. Sullivan from the igs office agreed. I want to thank you for doing such a great job. Quote,luded that beingduct crisis are now that with faster and more consistently by the epa management. We can always do better. As i said, misconduct is rare. We have to take it seriously. Epa reports that has only 14 open employee misconduct reports from the ig. Somen epa workforce of 15,000, that is less than one 10th of 1 . The we can do better. This committee has also expressed concern about excessive use of administrative leave. That has been a major concern of the committee. Listed ary, the agency new policy on administrative leave. Under the new policy, and epa beloyee may not placed placed on administrative leave for more than 10 days without approval from the assisted administrator. Checkolicy introduces a that addresses are concerned about overuse of administrative leave. And the need for stronger oversight of this type of leave. Chairman shavers indicated that the hearing today will focus on approximately 20 old cases that have been closed by the ig some years ago. As mr. Sullivan states in his testimony, and i quote, it is important to note that most of the misconduct occurred at least two years ago. Son of these cases, misconduct is in fact egregious. Such report behavior requires swift agency response. None is cases is currently pending. They are all closed. I want to be clear. I see nothing wrong with looking back. Sometimes you have to look back andou can work effectively efficiently move for. We can learn from things that have happened. According to the epa and ig, all of these cases proceeded the improve coronation process. I hope mr. Sullivan will address the difference you are seeing in the impact. Im sure you have your recommendations. Mr. Sullivan states of the new coronation process between epa and ig should serve as, and i quote, the best practices model for the federal government. Im extremely pleased to hear that. It shows what we can do if we work hard with the agencies and investigators to improve their procedures. This type of work is not always getting the big headline. It makes a real difference. Doshows this committee can through knots and bolts oversight. Im curious by the progress that has been made, there still challenges that we must and can and shall address. For instance, long investigation times in some cases may suggest a need for more resources for the ig. You will have to dress up. There are certainly other cases that raise questions about when employees are required to report criminal convictions. Mr. Chairman, i hope that we can address these challenges together. In a truly bipartisan way like we have done over the last year. With input from the agency and the ig and the other stakeholders. It is a factor in the concentrate and try to get the ig in the agency to work closer together, we get the count results that we are after. Again, we can be more effective and efficient. With that, i yield back. Thank you. Well hold the record five legislative days to anyone who wants to summit a written state. We recognize our witnesses. We have mr. Patrick sullivan, assistant Inspector General for inspections of the office of the ig. He is accompanied by mr. Allen williams. He is the Deputy Assistant Inspector General for investigations. His expertise may be needed for specificity on certain topics in during the questioning. We want to thank you all for victim. Well go ahead and swear in mr. Williams as well. Pursuant to committee rules, all witnesses are to be sworn in before they testify. Well also swear and mr. Williams. The three of you would rise and raise your right hand. Or affirm thatre you does testimony about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. Thank you. At the record reflect that all witnesses answered in the affirmative. Before, and ihere think you know the drill. We try to keep your verbal comments to five minutes. We give you great latitude. Today, and after that will go to question. You know recommend for five minutes. Member, and Ranking Members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity to testify. About the Environmental Protection agency to address employee misconduct. Hadstand my book, and ive the privilege of working at the epa for 40 years. Holding positions at our headquarters in washington, d. C. , our regional offices in atlanta and dallas, as well as Research Triangle park in the carolina. As a8 years i served region forced deputy region and ministers before retiring in early 2014. Ince returning to the agency october 2014, ive been honored to serve as acting deputy administrator, discharging the duty of the operator of the agency. Each day im reminded of the exxon work the epa employees do on behalf of the American People. From our engineers and a scientist in the field, to our technical experts and are you lawyers in headquarters. Im proud of you part of the agency, and its mission to protect human health and the environment. In all workplaces, their employees who missed who engage in misconduct. The epa is no exception. One such unfortunate instances occur, are committed to holding our appointment our employees accountable. We have and will continue to work with the powers administered to us by congress and the administrative tools at our disposal, to ensure proper conduct is met with i must stress that the isolated misconduct of a few is not reflect and must not overshadow the dedication and hard work of over 15,000 epa employees who commit themselves every day to the important work of the agency. Since my appearance before the Committee Last spring, we have made multiple positive changes to the epas management policies and procedures. To has taken measures support our first line supervisors who carry soup substantial responsibilities. We have updated the first line supervisors toolkit. Organized focus groups to ensure we understand their needs. An overall effort to ensure that supervisors are able take fair and legal disciplinary actions to the betterment of the agency as a whole. Addition, the agency provides its policy on administrative leave, addressing concerns of this committee has raised the past. The agency demands additional justification and review for administrative leave request. It limits the time. A live to 10 days, with limited exceptions, such as when an employee is dangerous. Issued administrator memo encouraging staff to raise issues of concern to managers, and instructing managers to be receptive. It is our hope that this directive, and combat junction with the riding training and tools for employers, will help our first line supervisors to address misconduct quickly and effectively when issues arise. In addition to our own work, the office of Inspector General is a Critical Role in addressing misconduct in helping agency operate at our best. As a result of the work with the committee and special Ranking Member cummings, we have improved our working relationship with the office of Inspector General. We now meet biweekly to discuss the status of pending oig investigations into employee misconduct. The of agreedupon procedures and timelines for effective for mission sharing. To theeetings contribute epa taking action more quickly upon oigs completion of this investigation. It helps reduce the need for additional factfinding by the agency. In closing, epa and its employees have spent nearly five decades working to safeguard look health and the environment for the people of this country. I am proud of what weve accomplished. On their occasion where misconduct occurs, we must address it appropriately. I look forward to discussing the progress the epa has made in this regard with you. Thank you, others toward answering questions. Thank you. Mr. Sullivan, you are recognized. Good morning. Sullivan, im happy to report that since i last testified, the agencys internal adjudication process has improved. Them, weggestion of now meet biweekly to discuss these issues. Process can serve as a best practices model. Many allegations lodged against epa employees are investigated. Some are ultimately determined to be unsupported. Oig investigations often clear an individual. Our job is to collect the facts in a fair and unbiased manner. We are proud of our work. Fewke to briefly discuss a significant cases. Office, the oig field had a contractor who reviews the work for the epa, stating that he was addicted to pornography. He admitted to washington on your feet on his government issued computer. He watched it wanted to hours a day. He avoided detection because he used commercial software to scrub his computer. He also access pornographic sites using search engines. He was fired by his company. The oig was successful and recovering 22,000 in retail mix. The oig made epa aware of the Network Vulnerabilities that had enabled the contractor to avoid detection. Was told theoig special agent may have been engaged in a ponzi scheme. The special agents name had surfaced in the prosecution of the ringleaders of a four level Payment Scheme involving getting tables. The oig investigation determined the epa special agent had medical statement on the required Financial Disclosure form. Receivedded she had 500 in cash. She subsequently pleaded guilty to one felony count to making false statements. She was sentenced to one year probation and ordered to pay a thousand dollars in fines and restitution. 2013, and oig special agent in the Atlanta Field Office proactively check the list of epa property reportedly lost or stolen through a lawenforcement database. Of search resulted in a hit a camera pond in georgia. The subsequent investigation revealed that on several occasions the employee pond cameras and camcorders at the pawn shop, resulting in a loss of 3100. Attorney declined prosecution. Were successful in presenting the case to a local prosecutor. Wasemployer the employee convicted. Following an appeal by the employee, they downgraded the suspension to 30 days. And 20 of six 2006, the anice was informed that employee was a registered sex offender. In 1997. Convicted the employee also possessed a imitation badge, which was displayed by the employer to a police officer. Eba than imposing discipline in the form of a 60 day suspension. In 2013 the Dallas Police sex offender unit requested assistance from the oig interesting the same epa employee for violation of probation. He was arrested on that charge. The oig developed information that the employee may have viewed and possessed child pornography on his computer. An examination revealed no evidence of this. The employee was terminated from his employment with the epa. The production board overturn the employees termination in order that he be rehired by the epa. In 2015 the employee entered into a settlement agreement, which he agreed to resign next day for certain considerations. In closing, i like to say that we pledge to work closely with the agency, the department of justice, and conduct and congress that all issues are addressed. We appreciate your continued interest. Thatrepaired that concludes my statements. Thank you. That mosto back to recent case with the child molester. About thehat part protections board. Based on the brief evidence that you have shared with us, this scenario the case, what were the other considerations that he got in order to resign from the epa . He received a cash settlement of 55,000, i believe. Himhe American People paid 55,000 to walk away . Yes. The ig is not part of those negotiations. Im not blaming you. You are the ones that actually highlighted this. It is hard to hold you personally responsible for that. We had to pay 55,000 to this person . Mr. Chairman, in this the case wasse, one where we had proposed removals and took Removal Action and it was reversed by the protections board. How do you lose that . Case. Was a complicated i will not try to go into all of the details. The protection board found that the basis for removal was not sustained. And it was reversed. Is just pretty stunning. What needs to change . You are both close to the situation. Thedo we need to change protections board . Protecting the American People or taxpayers, we are not protecting the employees at have to stick by this freak of a permit of a pervert. How to be detected in place of epa and the American People . But drifted to do the american Citizens Protection board to get them to change . A couple you to know things. One is that we share your desire to protect employees. That is a clear area where we are are in agreement. How is it that this person can operate in this atmosphere for so long. . How does this go unprotected for so long . It was not in our system. It didnt go unprotected. As was just not reported to the ig. Investigation. Time, he was stopped by the police for using license silencers. That was brought to the protection of epa management, he was canceled, and told not to do that again. What was his position back in 1999 . What was he doing. . He was an enforcement officer doing some inspections for the epa. His job would be what . To go out to a site and determine if there is any environmental violations. So we put them out there interacting with the public. How does this happen . Hasou know that this person registered as a sex offender why do you put them in a position to have to interact with the public . Mr. Chairman. Isont believe there are any particular rule that says if an employee is infected of a crime, then they have to report that to the agency . Should that be the case . Should they have to report ongoing . Mr. Chairman, i think that is an important issue. We are happy to work with you. And is asking you personal opinion. Do believe that if you are convicted of a felony . Mr. Chairman. Again, im here in my official capacity. Somebody who is convicted as a sex offender, is there an internal policy to prohibit those types of permits from interacting with the public in person . Mr. Chairman we have asked that question, and we do not believe that we have the authority to institute a policy to that effect. We are different from other agencies not regard. But, it is an important issue. We agree with you on that. On this panelre better sponsor i got to get rid of perverts interacting with the public. Because this is not acceptable. Somebody comes at the authority badge, andthat then they have lights on the are a registered sex offender. Can you see the disconnect . Why people would be outraged if they showed up at your place of business or work . And suddenly you encountered this person. How do you stand for that . Mr. Chairman. Again, Certified Badge at Law Enforcement officials have special responsibility. Even more so than ordinary epa in place. I can play last decade. A part of me thinks we are going to have to work your get the merit Systems Protection Board to start protecting themselves. My time is expired. Thank you mr. Chairman. Good morning gentlemen. Thank you for being here. A lot of these cases, all of the cases are discussing, were in 2014, 2015. So these are all cases right . Since then, weve had changes in our policies and practices at the epa that would at least in terms ofgations resolving them and as well as admission of the policies. Is that not correct . That iscongresswoman, corrected we feel we have made considerable progress moving fort. I do agree with the Ranking Member that we can always do better. We feeling we made considerable progress. Briefly you explain what specifically has changed, that you informed the rank and file and the supervisors. And what is the process were holding them accountable . Aside from this interacting with the oig. Wethe interaction well, have discussed with all of our employees the importance of first line supervisors and their responsibilities and conduct in this case. Weve also again as ive the minnesota leave has been curtailed for more than 10 days. Involving then Inspector General has been in incredibly important because we refer to cases with the Inspector General may have evidence of conduct. It is very helpful in the court for the investigation to have the interaction we now do. So we can be clear that only get information as quick as possible we can move on it. Thank you. Mr. Sullivan, are you feeling to makes interaction them more accountable environment and epa . To your findings, to make any recommendations to the epa about the employee that has been investigated . Of investigations for the epa, we do not make recommendations in our investigative reports. However, our auditors and evaluators make recommendations as a part of their job. That is a different part of the ig. In a typical misconduct investigation, we would report the facts and just the facts, we would not make a recommendation. You would report the facts of the epa plus the auditing . It depends we reach a systematic problem, or a problem that is crosscutting. For example in the beale investigation we determine that from the investigative standpoint, there was some safeguards are not being followed. Proving mr. Beales and attendance every week. It was a vulnerability. We reported that to our auditors and they did an audit. You feel we are moved in the epa Holding People accountable . Mitigate these kinds of cases in the future. Not talking about the one about whether or not the individual who is a convicted sex offender should be hired, and if so under what conditions . Otherwise, i can tell you in by meetingar, biweekly, we have streamlined a process, and we broken as in asious and touch each other human beings and managers addressing a problem. Again though, i want to make it crystal clear. We just report the facts. We have nothing to do with the also ultimate disciplinary process. I does have one question for you if you did answer quickly. Hopefully there are other things that should be happening either on an epa, on your side as the manager of the organization, or from your observation as the ig looking into the organization. Yes, i will fight one thing that we have in the works. We are trying to get additional employee Labor Relations through our first line supervisors and make sure they have good information on cases that may have come up in the past that are similar to ones they might face. Fortunately for most of our first i supervisors, a conduct discipline cases the right thing. Someone comes up, we want to make sure they have a context for whatever action they may take. Thank you. Mr. Sullivan, do anything to say to that . Yesman. We dont have enough agents to investigations. In the past five years, weve gone down to 289. Ive personally lost 1520 agency no longer were cases. A motion to play catchup. I hope you have a skate less cases to investigate. There is an important spots ability in that agency to carry out. I had the opportunity to share Civil Service on this subcommittee, on this panel from years ago. I am a supporter of this Civil Service system. It was set up decades and decades ago to protect civil servants, public employees, from being politically abuse, relieved of their positions. Isnt that pretty much a case . Yes, congressman it is. It is important to make sure the system is not subject to to take hardworking people and cast them out. On some political basis. I think that should be protected. However, the reports we have here. I talk pages of some of the most egregious abuses. I cant find any instance in which anyone was fired. Did you say there were 15,000 epa employees . Is that correct . More than that. Yes, that is correct. You say mr. Sullivan, your 280 investigators . No sir. We have had three and it we have had 365 years ago. Now were down to 289. What do they do. We have investigations. Auditors, some evaluating. They are looking at reviewing the conduct of the 15,000 epa employees . I have 50 agents right now. Last yeary of 2015, how do were fired from epa . I would have to defer for that. How many were five mr. Marburg . Were any ever fired for misconduct . Yes. Can you supply do you think it is more than just my fingers my tears . My toes. Congressman to know what to be clear about my answer. I will tell you this. Nobody here got five. The only one exit dismissed was a contractor. What is troubling as some of the offenses. I just read the deal cut to pay 55,000 in a settlement. Is that true mr. Sullivan . You said you were not involved in settlement. That is correct. Was that the pedophile . Yes. I was a child molester. We are paying a child molester 55,000, nobody gets fired. Here is one epa official in of 15 level 15. Yearsuy sat around for the past several years and watch porno and getting a hundred 125,000. And actually i think is still on the job. Must be a great job where you just sit around and collect 125,000 a year. At least 90,000 here d. C. A search of the employees epa issue found 507 pornographic images as well as a graphic pornographic story written by the employee containing description i will go into all of that for public consumption. The employee was issued a notice of proposed were removal but was retired. Nobody gets fired. The way out as most people either retire. Civil service was not set up to protect these folks. It was to protect folks against political manipulation. This has to be demoralizing to thousands and thousands hardworking epa officials to see these people who either are , stealingn misconduct money, and i cannot find a single instance in which anyone was fired. They mostly retired and when they retire, they get a pretty good retirement. They get the regular retirement . There is no penalty to their compensation when they retire as there . Congressman, under current law, there is no penalty people can retire resign that is the mo. Porno, around and watch you steal, you get convictions , and youre either put or voluntarily resigning good to his to retirement, but nobody gets fired. Mr. Sullivan. Cases . Re 14 is that right . Pending at14 cases the agency in which we have already submitted to report of investigation. We have many many more in the pipeline that we have not yet oftten and report investigation. We have approximately 90 pending misconduct cases right now. Ok. The reason why i ask that its because i said to myself now, you are talking about the agents that are available to investigate, and to sf, well 14 cases, i know it takes a lot of manpower, so you have about 90 cases that you actually involved in. Yes. An access of a hundred 50 additional cases. 97 frog cases, plus ran a number of threat investigations, number of theft investigations, some saw investigations. It runs a spectrum. For the misconduct, weve currently 90 pending cases. Have already been presented to the agency. We are waiting for judah gish and print the other 76 are in various processes of us investigating. When we have a situation when and thenis hired summoning, serious do they have a duty to report . What is the situation there, and where do we draw the line that . It is my understanding that for the most epa employees, there is no requirement to report either an arrest or conviction. Obviously if you are a lawenforcement officer like myself, you must report. If you are an attorney must report, if you work for the ig must report, or if you have a security clearance, u. S. Report. Short of that short list, i dont believe there is any. Please report either an arrest or conviction. Do you have an opinion on that . Because iondering know in one of the cases had a situation where somebody was convicted after they were hired. Report, it duty to is very interesting, because when i practice law, for a lot of cases, not government cases, but others where people fail to report and they were immediately fired. Are there agencies where the list is longer than that three . Yes. For myself, as in a federal lawenforcement officer my entire adult life. I worked for the guy in the secret service and the federal air marshals. In those agencies, you absolutely have to immediately report an arrest and certainly conviction. Carrying a gun or a civilian employee in those agencies, you have to report for you and i was a little surprising the king to epa and i learned that the epas rankandfile do not have to do that. Ive accepted that as the rules, but i was curious for the sake , to put trust and confidence in a particular employee, it may infect your judgment or decisionmaking if you knew the person which is convicted of say theft, or embezzlement. Tell me this. We were just talking about a case where somebody received counseling. When you look at the counseling situation there at epa, do you think is helpful . Do you think are Strong Enough . And maybe mr. My bird can answer this how to determine whether somebody should have counseling and that be a part of keeping them on . I know you dont have a lot to do with the final say, but i was just thank you Ranking Member. The short answer is that it depends on the case and with the nature of their defenses. If it was consent, has great out of ignorance, or simply the employee did not know what the rule was. Then counseling may be appropriate. Each one of those cases has to basedluated on its merits on the facts of the case and the applicable law and regulations. Time is running out. Tommy clearly. Donewould you like to see so that we can be effective and efficient. And so that we can basically put you out of a job . Mr. Cummings. Not try to get rid of you. But you understand what im saying. Thank you survivorship that. Im concerned alumni have an investigation and because i dont have enough special agent to expeditiously investigate allegations, we eventually get to them, but the old saying justice delayed is justice denied. Im very concerned that i do have enough agents to adequately and immediately address some of these allegations. That is why so many cases in the pipeline. If you do the math, my average, mark responsibility, which is my they average 9. 5 cases each. The agents in the field average approximately 70 to the spirit a lot of those cases in the field are multimillion dollar fraud investigations that are very involved. I simply do not enough agents to expeditiously investigate every cute that i have my plate case that i have a market. Will you continue to work to come up with solutions to the problems . You have a wonderful. We continue to that surgical . Absolute. It is better beneficial to myself and agency as a whole. Several of the cases of that hasmisconduct been reported from the ig took our where region f you are the administrative. One of the cases in particular that is on my mind took place on a gs 12ch referring to and play making over 100,000 a year was found to be stealing property of dollars of from the epa. In fact, the individual pled and waso felony theft placed on three years probation, but astonishingly only reserved received 30 day suspension by the epa. My obvious question is, how in the world can employee we found guilty and admit to felony criminal charges of stealing from the epa, not be far . Be fired . I was beat to that as you know i was the deciding official. I want to be clear that this is not a question about whether the employee did is wrong. But the employee did was wrong, and she needed to be held accountable for doing something wrong. N a case comes forward it was criminal. Criminalrrent conviction that took place in the court occurred after we took action. There were two pounds that you can go on this. One of the top of administrative discipline, and other referral to the u. S. Attorney or two local authorities which occurred in this case. At the time we took administrative discipline, the question before us was what was appropriate minister discipline given the information we had from the investigation before which we did. It is astonishing to me that a 30 day suspension is also indexed for even pleading guilty of felony theft. Taxpayers on the hook for this type of behavior. So you were you involved in the in determining the disciplinary action. Yes i was the deciding official in the case. So in the deciding on the case, you are saying that you were not aware of the criminal charges when he make a final decision . I was generally aware that there is a possibility. But i did not know the outcome of that was. But you i was aware that approximately 3000 in camera quitman have been lost to the agency through the transaction. And in your determining decisions, that was only worth a 30 day suspension . There are many factors. Any individual case, there are many factors that the deciding uses in deciding what an appropriate penalty would be. Im obligated by law in considering all this. It is amazing to me that the agency does not do more to punish people who were stealing on the agency. Who even plead guilty to criminal theft. And they still have the right of religious and privileges to continue working for the agency. Just cannotot wrap my mind around it. This committee has heard time and again the epa literally employeeth constant and get at the same time, epa routinely goes after businesses across this country offensesless serious and purrs fine after fine after ofteno businesses that are doing virtually nothing in comparison. We hear stories of businesses for slighte infractions, getting serious fines, and yet here we have the epa and a double standard having employees involved in criminal behavior. And i just get 30 day suspensions or less. It is an absolute hypocritical double standard. It is disgusting not only to me due to these kinds of things, but the American People are fed up with this kind of stuff. They get slapped time and time again with fines because i ladders in the wrong place, whatever the site and fraction may be. And yet, you guys are putting up with this. The state of the affairs of the epa to me is totally unacceptable mr. Chairman. I does believe that the epa wants to trust of the American People in this committee, they have a long ways to go to get their house in order. I yelled back thank you. Gentleman from georgia, mr. Carters recognizer five minutes. Mr. R. Salamis and sullivan. In march, in a play was arrested and indicted for marijuana possession. It is my understanding that this particular employee had a grow operation and was arrested on felony possession charges. Fact, i believe you highlight of this in your november 2015 report on the epa to use of taxpayer dollars for the extended a ministry or leave for misconduct. Report, thisthat accordingas placed to a report, this employee was placed on administrative leave for seven and a half months. Is that correct . Yet sir. That is correct. Tom vilsack correct. Tony it is not correct. It is correct. He was charged with felony position. He had a grow operation. And he was put on administrative and paid for seven and a half months. Yesterday. Yes sir. As i understand it, the epa policy only allows for 10 days of administrative leave when employees commit crime for which i could be imprisoned. Is that correct . That is correct. That is a new policy. And new policy implemented after this . Ok. The tenday limited not apply then. So that is why we pay them for seven and a half months . I can explain im sure you can. t. Why would the epa do this . Explained to me that. Why would you do this . Congressman. I cannot speak to the particulars on this case and what judges were made by the individual. While can . We need them here. Who makes his decisions . You know that we need here . Who makes this decision . Who made that decision . Andecisions on conduct discipline are taken by proposing officials are usually the employee supervisor for the division or region. And the final decision is made usually by deputy regional administrator. And answer to . To . Ho do they answer but me ask you. Been sitting here listening, and it seems like with all due respect, you are just matter of fact, yeah thats right, that is the weights by sweeper in that november 2015 report, did you not indicate that epa need to change some of the policies and protocols . Correct. I was not a report. But yes, recommendations made. Have you done that . This indeed we have. So they are in place now . To be specific, the policy on daysistrative leave to 10 ok. Im ok with that. This is the only time Something Like this happen. It only happened once, then the correct it appe . Have you ever worked in the private sector . Buffer many years. Not for many years. Searcy. Do you think they would tolerate this in the private sector . I cant speak to that. My colleague just made the point. You go and you find people. We got the answer today as to why they been fine. Because we have to pay people and administer leave who have been charged for counties. Thats why are getting fined for that latter being in the wrong place. I got the answers i need to know. Thank you it. I got exactly what i needed to know. Mr. Chairman. I yelled. I yield. Thank you. We have heard discussion today about the new process for information sharing at epa and the germanic improvement and management responsibility response to misconduct. I were hearing on the federal workforce often focused on the negative. It is good to hear about the positive changes that are current. Failures that weve been hearing about or prior to the changes. I want to focus on another policy change that took place in epa regarding administratively. Administrative leave. I want to know that this is the six hearing that this committee has held over the past two congresses on the management of employee misconduct issues at epa. That the newo hear policy increases oversight over the placement of employees on administrative during that misconduct investigations and adjudications. The new epa policy also requires managers to document alternatives to administrative leaves that were considered and why they were correct. Yes correct congress on. What alternatives above the consider before putting employees on administrative leave . They should consider it alternatives about what kind of work the individual can be doing instead of the regular investigation could impede their ability to conduct their regular abilities. Theyll be the first place you would look to find what they can do. Do you expect this new policy to reduce the amount of time that employees are placed on a mission to leave . Is that the goal . Yes, indeed it is. Weve been sensitive to this issue. We want to curtail that practice. Inso now this policy is been place in february, i correct . I am that is correct. So have you seen any difference . Weve seen a dramatic difference of the since the policies and put into place. Request, one was approved because i risk to the safety of the other was denied. I was in hr Labor Relations and really have the responsibility of looking at how do you deal with separating inappropriate behavior, but respecting the rights of an employee is a delicate mix. You have to hold employees accountable. I can tell you sitting here today, i want to place hot accountable. It is our expectation. Employee is a citizen of these United States. They have rights. Have anagencies should atlanta year that you have reviewed these processes to make sure that they are consistent, that they are not up to the will of the manager. And that they are held here to do the work. Taxo the work that my dollars and every other americans expect to happen in this agency. I will continue. I hope i dont have to have six more hearings on this. I will continue to stay focused and looking at what we are doing. I expect for you to continue to monitor this. And be proactive and make sure that epa with all of budget cuts that we are doing here, that epa is doing the work that we need them to do to protect our environment. Thank you so much. Think the gentlelady from michigan. I recognize the gentleman from alabama. Thank you mr. Chairman. Think we have pretty well atered some of the problems the epa regarding sexual misconduct, but there are other forms of employee misconduct that i want to address th. Specifically about investigations going on in the birmingham, alabama area involving epa. Which epa employees, i think, have acted improperly in conducting the investigation. Specifically seeking access to property without getting permission of the owner and. Ctually intimidating people was onen affidavit here of the people who reside in the property made these allegations that officials at u. S. Tal protectionsonment agency presented me with a document. Veryfficials acting intimidating and are in for me i needed to sign the release over, even though i did on the property. Which is a clear violation. I felt very intimidated and compelled to sign the release, even i did not want to do so. Lease, i askede epa official what was so urgent in trying to gain access to my yard. Epa officials responded that here to shut are down the abc co. Plan. Does the epa discipline employees who act in such an overzealous manner . Congressman, anytime even allegation of misconduct, we investigated. If the investigation shows that misconduct of the card, then theirtake action to hold play accountable. Do you punish that . Do you encourage it . Again, when an accusation of misconduct occurs, we investigated. As agents element director sullivan specified, one of the things that girls are many investigations is that the investigation does not find any wrongdoing. When does, we take appropriate action. I would like to point out that this is not the only affidavit like this. There are several others. Them not going to release at this time. What do you believe it is appropriate for the epa personnel to pressure at citizens into endorsing epas addenda agenda . The specifics here are the epa employee forced this writer to give access to property that did not have legal access to. In an intimidating manner, and then afterwards told them that the whole point of the investigation was to shut down and legal business. Is that how the epa does business . To you encourage employees to do that . D allow them to intimidate . Do you allow them to stop outside the law . Are you aware that this goes on . Congressman again. Im not familiar with the specifics. Im asking you in general. In general, we ask employees to behave in accordance with standards of professional conduct. While they dont always. Do you believe is appropriate for the employees to sue to shut down of the jamaican business and quasipeople . A legitimate business that employs many people . Than italian. I have a number of issues with the pa. How they do business, how they handle investigations. Tosent a letter administrator mccarthy and back on administrator february 26 of this year asking for information about the epas investigation of this area and got a letter by saying that with respect to concerns about the epas enforcement approach and or theories of liability or any prp associate at the site. Unfortunately, epa cannot raise in any level discussions with third parties including members of congress as articulated in memorandum. That seems to me to undermine our oversight ability. I intend, mr. Chairman, to look into this further. I would like to enter my letter and epas response into the record if there are no objections. I think the gentleman from alabama. The gentlewoman from illinois recognize. Thank you mr. Chair. Misconduct from a few bad apples give all of the other hardworking federal employees a bad name. As elected officials, we can relate to that too. Our goal is to ensure that agency back swiftly and fairly in cases like these. This committee has worked with agencies to improve and streamline their eternal internal procedures top. While preserving employee rights. Solving, you say that since the committees hearing on epa misconduct in april 2015, the agencys internal adjudication process has dramatically improved. Is that correct . Yes. That is correct. These improvement that epa have occurred to to changes in a ministry to policy and process, not the legislative change, as i correct . Yes, congressman, that is correct. Managersr opinion, the at your agency have sufficient tools under current law to deal with allegations of misconduct like the ones weve heard about today . Congresswoman, i do exactly that. That weways the case can only do better and we strive to do that. We believe we have the tools you need in agency to execute effective conduct and discipline. Is important to remember that due process protections and laws. Ral civil s service more than a century ago, the government operated under its a spoiled system in which employees could be removed for any reason including membership in a different political party. The result is that the system was appointed and retention. Politicalbased on favoritism. Constitutional due process protects them. Moving is removing due process necessary . Congresswoman, we believe that we can address serious misconduct through the application of our processes that do in fact protected process. Mr. Sullivan, do you agree that without a legislative change it is possible that improvement can be made within the agency that a streamlined the disciplinary process . Yes, i agree with that. Are the changes that epa and example for such an improvement . Yes. The biweekly meetings have dramatically improve the process. To me that agencies currently have the tools to do with allegations of misconduct. That, they sometimes do not use them as efficiently and effectively as a kid. They could. Thank you. I yield back about summertime. Myself for five minutes. I would like to thank you especially for the work of the oig in corroboration of this committee. To shed light of misconduct of epa and efforts to bring about accountability and reform within the agency. We recognize your progress while still nodding there are still many ongoing challenges within the Agency Personnel management. We know the longterm reform and improvements to personal Personnel Management requires more than just new procedures and updates manuals. Her car is active support from leadership, talked about to foster a culture of integrity, accountability, and best practice. Would you agree with your sullivan . Yes i do. It seems you are discussion today youre pretty astute about the law, right . Im not a lawyer. I would not make that claim. You seem very articulate about the banter from both sides and regard to this claim and that claim. Youre pretty articulate about that, right . Thank you. That is not for me to judge. You are pretty familiar with Personnel Management, right . Yes. Over the course of my career ive had a number of discipline cases come before me as a deciding official. Could you please briefly describe and summarize your Job Description to me today. My Job Description is that im the agencys chief operation officer. And i perform duties assigned to me as a by the initiative. Lets go through that. You are serving as the active epa deputy administrator. And you should understand the law, right . You are predicating this based on understanding the law and all those underneath you should be following you. Have also been nominated by the president to serve as epa deputy administrator under the federal vacancies reform act in recent case are, do you realize you cannot serve an acting capacity for an officer you been nominated for . Congressman, im aware of the legal case that you are referring to. moreover, do you realize that in such a situation your actions have no force under the law. What im actually talking to about, is you are the ceo. You are applying results. They basically go away. I would like to have a name of the council that gave you that information because it is internal violation of federal statute law. Have you ever discuss if anyone at dpa under the federal vacancies reform act, you cannot serve as the acting Deputy Director after he been nominated to serve in the same office. Are you concerned that your actions can only challenged . Congressman ive been in consultation with our counselor. That is contradictory to federal law. Do you believe you should step the administrator . I have been consulted the council that all of my actions i want all individuals like a bee that consultations name and titles. Your actions are defined in the law by this agency baffles me. Moreover, does not surprise me. The piano this president has a long history of place and cigar for the law and disrespect for the oversight a third of congress break your boss Gina Mccarthy committed perjury made several false statement that multiple congressional hearings, trying to defend the fact to find the United States budget regulations. On numerous occasions, and minister mccarthy not only broke the law by lying to congress, but in doing so, she also led to the American People. Perjury before congress is perjury to the American People and an affront to the Core Principles of our republic and the will of all. You actually sitting here ceo is a fronto the to them as well. That is well ive introduce articles of impeachment to remove admission mccarthy from office to before you get too excited thinking you may get another astronomical promotion, i think you should step down as well. As the actingve official when youre nominated you for that price per night is against the law. It is principle. The Personnel Management within epas a mess. That is no surprise when the agencys top officials are willful lawbreakers themselves. You create that culture, and that is why you were set up accordingly. That is why it is going to be really nice, because we figured a way to make sure theres impeachment proceedings or two before. And they make it somebody atone for their actions. It is actually a mess and it is sad that we are to bring the spirit particularly when you should know the rules better, and that goes along with the council. I would expect those names of all those council and their titles immediately to the committee for review. I thank you and i discussed it. I now recognize the gentlewoman from district of columbia. Thank you mr. Chairman. To get back to one of the themes of this hearing, i have been interested to hear about approved coronation between epa. The reason that interest me, that we are missing want to reduce the time that employees spend on administrative leave, when theyre not doing anything for the agency. Im interested in the investigative process. I recognize that takes time, can cut corners, you can be sued. I also understand that some of these investigations can a very complex. Mr. Sullivan. In the funding available to the agency to do the job that needs to be done in investigating. Can you tell me what the for the teamls that investigates misconduct allegations . Yesman. I can tell you in general the for theauthorized fte Inspector Generals office as a whole is 289 please. That has dropped in the last five years from 360. In my office, i have an authorize of the strength of 70 65 easier. Im not down to 61. But because of the uncertainty in the budget, im not been able to hire back up to 61. I now have 55 fulltime employees. 50 which are special agents. The rest are professional support staff were scientists, or computer forensic people. Officefive agent Center Professional responsibility here in bc. Those agents work exclusively misconduct investigations. In the field, i have another 34 agents that work not only misconduct investigations, they most of the grants and contracts for the fraud cases. The fraud cases are the bread and butter of the ig. Most of our criminal desiccated work goes into trying to recoup the governments money, people that have stolen the money that the epa is put out. Haveswer your question, i five fulltime agents working, nothing but misconduct in headquarters. Approximately 34 other agents working accommodation of fraud cases, threat cases, and misconduct cases in the field. Hearing Staffing Levels like this reminds me of what we are all seeing on television with the tsa. I cant believe that this is all because someone decided to get on a plane. I think at some Point Congress needs to understand that if you want people to do the job, there has to be a certain number of people to do it. Tsa is one thing. Theyve been under great criticism because they have not always been able to keep , weapons to the gao from getting through. That is an interesting case. This of course is another level of complexity. Yougoing to have to ask candidly, how can these investigators keep on cutting corners . Staffinge kinds of levels you describe, that apparently in changing your time and agency. Maam, i have seen no evidence of any maidens cutting corners, but what i have testified to previously earlier in the hearing, is that im concerned that cases take way too much time to come to conclusions. Frankly, it is like the analogy that planes that are circling him under the planes. And that y investigating and plays on misconduct is not the only responsibility of the ig. That is correct maam. Juggling. Stantly obviously reprioritize every day a like an emergency room. We investigate and handle the rest of occasions for your button still to take care of other cases in the pipeline. What about the nonemployee relatedct took a investigations . Approximately 60 of our cases are combination of the fraud cases, for a cases, assault cases, or thought. Left, say safed, except by outsiders. There is a limit. I think we are beginning to see within limits are. I wish you luck with the appropriations process. I now recognize the gentleman from michigan for five minutes. Thank you mr. Chairman. Thanks to the panel. Ms. Love the first time this committee has looked into the epa for its questionable practices. That is an issue i would like to address. Forhas been notorious having exceeded our delays in responding to requests. In fact, one of our what recent ,itnesses in a previous hearing a waters expert at Virginia Tech testified that he waited several years for his request to be completed. In fact, many of his request refills the day after he appeared before this committee. On the floodwater issue. Others, ias well as believe very clearly and should diminish the publics confidence in epas ability t. Could you tell us why take the basal entrees for your request to refill . Congressmanvery generally to this on a couple of matters. In recent years there has been a substantial increase in the number of players are request that receive it in responding to that, we have tried to put together an assistant team in searching for documents to make sure we are fully responsible when was that team initiated . Was initiated within the last year or so. Are we seeing improvements on that . Very hard. Rking i dont have statistics free today. I know that you have to get a letter close undoubtably. We are dealing with very emotional issues, waters of the u. S. , floodwater crisis, where government fail all levels, and people been hurt. There certainly is emotional issues dealing with request that go on. There are reasons why epa has been brought in front of us on several occasions dealing with flor. Going on to purchase cars that was introduced in our chairmans opening comments. Of can epa keep better track the purchase cards and usage of those cards by your employees . Congressman, we made a number of changes in response to interest problems from the Inspector Generals office. To put in place better systems with keeping track of activities that occur in purchase cars and flagging anything that would be suspect. We feel like we made considerable progress on this over the last couple of years. A lot of done relative to the place to make sure were not missing think gs . We are always continue to follow up and make sure we place. Why is it that epa employees to spend thousands of dollars of epa taxpayer money on personal expenses can get away with not having to reimburse agency . Congressman the obviously say content about that. The cases that are before us today our cases that were over as director part sullivans specified were over a couple of years ago. We feel like we have made progress Going Forward to identify those cases. With a particular individual that extended over 25,000 in International Roaming charges while vacationing, think you , will theclear employee be required to reimburse agency . Congressman. Im glad you brought that particular case of pavement going back and trying to make another effort to recover the cost. What is the challenge . The challenges that has to be may haved which call been workrelated contact back to the agency. We need to make sure we separate those out and make a credible claim. Can you had any information to their relative to that specific individual . The individual actually resigned before the present their findings to the agency and that as a followup, the agency perimeter determined that it was too difficult to decide of that 22,000, how many of them may been workrelated. Recently though, the agency came back to us in april and so they are taking a second look at it and trying to present a bill to that firm play. The hope a second look at taken. I thought that effort. At the end, theres fraudulent or criminal involvement with the employee, i would hope that we would get after them. Youot, we would appreciate telling us how we can assist you in making law in place or we can take employees who are ruining the credibility of other Good Government employees attempting to do the job in the best way possible. Yet the cloud is put on them because the people who are willing to misuse their purpose s. Now i reckon is general from south carolina. Iq chairman. Thank you, chairman. He was talking specifically about a circumstance in alabama where there was an allegedly overzealous epa employee. We do this outside. It ranges from the term of his aussie shakedown depending on your talking to. I guess the question that didnt get asked, as is. Has anyone ever been fired for doing that . Im going to interpret your question and need to know from hearing it correctly. Enforcing the laws what we are you folks to do right . But, occasionally i guess it is possible that a bear crack, their Government Employee might overreach. They might not like the person are dealing with, they might not like what theyre doing, i used to be arrested about her. I can assure you that there is a lot of folks who like to hug trees who dont like what i used to do for leaving. The plantation might be there for an ordinary human being to sort of use that power that the government gives them as an imoyee of the state to say going to push a little hardier. Im going to stick it to this person. Do you remember a single circumstance of anybody at the epa ever been five for the inner four years there . Congressman. First of all, i appriate your observation about the job of Law Enforcement is often not a popular job or want to design to make them wait like you. Im not aware in my own experience of a case that is similar to what im hearing you say somebody in overuse or abuse their authority and was subsequently terminated solely for that reason. I will ask the staff to go back and look. That the relegations like , that someone has been overzealous or exceeded their authority. Rise to the level of something the oig would look at . It could. This is the first time hearing about this issue. Is not to my knowledge been referred to in the Inspector Generals office. His is an example, because he knows much about his example in alabama than i ever will. My question is more general. Have you ever investigated allegations of overreaching authority on the part of an eva epa emplyee. Tpa and play off the top my head, economical the case of being adjudicated. For example, weve had allegations of people using their position to get a favor. Something that is not readily available to an average citizen. Instances. Of weve also had instances where people may have use Government Property to the personal gain. Misuse a government vehicle, or misuse government funds. There was a fairly employeeile about the business the service is going up who lent out a trailer piece of equipment to an Environmentalist Group or Something Like that. I am familiar that case. The person was not fired. Maybe my question is this. My last minute. Give me a couple of examples, what does it take to get fired from the epa . What do you have to do . Drive to kill somebody . Is it short of that. . . There are cases where he done termination. In my expense, weve done terminations for the kind of behaviors that are involved are pretty unpleasant and not the kind of things that you would certainly want to ever have an employee engagement. When they engage in this kind of things on a casebycase basis, considering the place to process rights are making sure as a deciding official, you have all s, you follow the regulations of process, that you do in fact terminate place. Help me understand. I recognize the fact that we are speaking in generalities, but if you had estimate between when youre dealing with allegations of impropriety. There are serious allegations. If you determine them to be valid allegations with substance and, what percentage of people quit or retire versus get fired under the circumstances . Congressman, i dont have an exact percentage. It is not uncommon that people will find themselves faced with a proposed termination will make an election to retire resign. If they retire they get to keep their benefits, right . We have no authority under law. The answer is yes. Except in very limited cases that involve treason or as being knowledge, writing terrorist group. As a manager, you in charge of managing people. Would it make your job easier for gave you the additional two to on a casebycase basis, expand existing casebycase basis to deny people who have been found to have acted improperly, to deny them some or all of their benefits even if they choose retirement or resignation over termination. Out is that since it by saying i think we have the abilities under existing and minister to two appropriate religious misconduct and to hold employees accountable. I would want to make sure were using those tools effectively as you can. If we gave you this additional tool, would help you, when it . Thank you very much. After shave. Thank the gentleman. I will recognize the gentlewoman from the Virgin Islands for five minutes. Thank you mr. Chairman. Good morning. During last aprils hearing at the epa management issues. We highlighted and i quote management failures at the epa. Im not sure that characterization is an appropriate one. Are still inat we discussion about this today. I wanted to discuss what has occurred since last april. It is my understanding that the epas taken significant steps to adjust weaknesses in the process. I dont think that necessarily firing a bunch people means that you are good manager, that may be the sign of a poor manager that cosan mastiff are people rather than bring them up to speed and make them an appropriate worker. Your testimony described as progress epa has made. As a result of the work of this committee, and especially working members coming, weve improved our working relationship with oig, which has enabled us to take more efficient administrative action. Would you care to elaborate on that, sir . Again that this has been a twoway street. We feel that we have reached out to the Inspector Generals office. The Inspector Generals office has reached out to us in pursuit of a common ejector. We want to make sure that employees are held accountable in the conduct of misconduct cases are dealt with. While also making sure that we do that in a way to protect house at different than your relationship previous it . I really can say for the agency as a whole from before the time that i got here, but i think as in reach out on both sides, and is truly commendable. Agree sullivan, would you with that . And your statement, both to quote from you, that the agencys internal adjudication process has to radically improve. Is that correct . Yes. Ill explain the difference prior to us having biweekly meeting. For example, if we had a misconduct investigation in denver or San Francisco, the fault that headquarters had very little visibility on that. It may languish for months or years. Whereas now, every misconduct investigation that is pending across agency, missile maverick staff, the internist and epa biweekly,rs when we and that case may be languishing in San Francisco or seattle is no longer allowed to languish. The folks at epa headquarters have visibility on a. They are forcing pushing along to make sure that those cases are just appropriately and exodus is it. You would say that the cases are moving at a much faster pace to closer than they were previously . Absolutely. And you have quantitative evidence of that . I could tell you that within the past year, we have successfully closed while the agency is determined what this plan action to take if any. We have especially close on a tirade. We cant close our case until youre back from the agency has as to what theyre going to do. Have even satisfied with the recommendation to thursday on this case is . Something ours job is to collect and of unbiased manner. It is not relevant, my opinion on whether i think they are appropriate or not. You said that the process that you are describing mr. Sullivan, and you quote, i believe that this process considers the best practices model for the federal government. Is that correct . Yesman. Maam. To the epa as a model maybe get these cases to move faster governmentwide. I think that wouldve alleviate this committee having as many hearings as they have had. I making get on with the actual work of congress if we were to do that. Would you support efforts to encourage governmentwide adoption of this talk of and your office would be willing to work with this committee to do that . We certainly do support that. We have worked with the committee. The epa, we are unique in that we dont have any subcomponents. It is just one epa, and one eiji. If you take the hs of the department of justice, they have multiple subcomponents. The model that we have an epa, probably would not work in a department that is multiple subcomponents. Just to put that out there. Have you thought about what would work agencies like that . Now i really have not. It seems to me that epa and i g had shown that better coordination and communication can help agencies take Initiative Action more quickly and misconduct cases. Im really grateful for the work that you have since april from our first hearing. To actually address many of these issues. I dont believe having managed many people working at the department of justice, with the Deputy Attorney office, managing 9000 attorneys, that necessarily firing people is the measure by which one determines that youve done a good job. In terms of dealing with the conduct rate im grateful for the work that youve done. A couple housekeeping measures. Were like to know it for the record, how many employees of the epa get bonuses . I also want to be sure that we have date certain. And titles of people i gave you permission, i would expect those in two weeks. Gaby very many, id expect them to be. Sullivan, are you aware of the federal patient vacancies . Are you aware of anyone at the same possible conflict that has been a made aware in this committee e . We were told by the agency that it is nonissue based on the council. We have not investigated the issue. To my knowledge. Three also have the name from the people that you counsel to the epa that gave you our counsels office. I know i was briefed. I will get back to the committee on that drive counsels office and i will you know. I guess we have a gentleman right here, mr. Duncan on tennessee is reckoned as apartments. Recognized for five minutes. That, would love those names within two weeks as well. The caps off. De about that. I did not speak to anyone directly from the epa council. I was reached in my office by my counsels office. I believe that a meeting this issue came up, and according to the agencys general counsel, it is not an issue. That iswithout told th not what i was told. According to the federal anything reform act, that mr. My berg may be implementing may be of no envoy based upon the premise that it is actually placed there. Thculture we are building here is predicated on the culture that exists at the top level. Because you do lead by example. That is what the problem is in this application. Yesi