I am a thirdyear math major at the college and president of the College Republicans this year. Our speaker is congresswoman liz cheney. She served as representative for wyomings at large district since 2013. Before time in the house, representative cheney served in the state department. She and bill kristol founded a Nonprofit Organization promoting National Security in 2009. Shes also the daughter of former Vice President dick cheney. Moderating today is Catherine Baker, dean and professor of the school of Public Policy. Before her current role, she served as a professor of Health Economics at the Harvard School of public health. From 2005 to 2007, she served as a member of the council of economics advisors. After the discussion, the Student Board will hold an event to provide students an opportunity to reflect. No rsvp is necessary. Just come by the house starting at 5 p. M. It is my honor to introduce Catherine Baker and congresswoman cheney. [applause] dean baker i joined the audience and being excited to talk with you. Theres a lot going on. Let me start by asking you some questions about what happened in this weeks election. There was an expectation that there would be a bigger sweep for the Republican Party than there was. Does this suggest to you a change in the way people are viewing, you now, bread and butter issues like abortion or inflation versus how they view the work of your committee, for example . Rep. Cheney first of all, let me echo what my speaker what the speaker said about it being wonderful to be here on veterans day and have the chance to thank everyone in the audience who served our nation for the fundamental defense of our freedom, so thank you and wonderful to be back in chicago always could always. I spent many happy hours at the oriole the Oriental Institute across the street. I took egyptian archaeology classes for Law School Credit and loved it. It is wonderful to be back and i think in terms of the election, the fact that we are here on friday and do not know which party is going to control the house or the senate tells you a lot about defying expectations, the extent to which it was a victory for team normal. I think you so many candidates who were reflecting the election to nihilism of President Trump election denialism President Trump rejected. It was an important and hopeful outcome for democracy. Dean baker as someone who is less optimistic about the future of democracy, can you make me feel better . Rep. Cheney look, i think we have a long way to go, and we certainly have a threat that we have never faced before in our country in terms of a former president who tried to overturn an election, prevent the peaceful transfer of power, and who still isnt saying things he knows caused violence still is saying things he knows caused violence. Theres still tremendous loyalty inside the Republican Party and i think its a dangerous moment. We had a lot to do but i think that the outcome this week wasnt certainly a step in the right direction and week was certainly a step in the right direction and an important step. Dean baker given that election deniers did not fare well this week, do you think froms influence over the Republican Party is waiting think trump s influence over the republic and party is waning o you think he will be the likely nomineer . Rep. Cheney my view obviously after january 6, the party should clearly have said that is a line that cannot be crossed and should clearly have said, you know, we are not going to be in a position where we are embracing insurrection or excusing or whitewashing it, and so, you know, i thought that, was obvious and certainly most elected officials in my party did not do that. You know, people talk about donald trump these days as the biggest loser, and i think that is true if you look at the record from 2018, from 2020, the special election in 2021, 2022, so i think that is an important point. I also think that as a party we need to be clear that we would not should not be embracing him even if he were a winner, because what hes doing and what he advocates is so dangerous. Dean baker it does seem like a fair number of stalwart supporters of the past turned away from former President Trump with this weeks election results, but there were a lot of people who started off repudiating election deniers who eventually came around to supporting them. Do you feel like there is a stiff enough spine in the party to stand up against future insurrections or are we worried about january 6, 2025 . Rep. Cheney we definitely need stiffer spines. And i think that i think elected officials need to understand that words matter, and when you sort of see again and again and again people accepting things that are indefensible, you know, we watch what happens in our society, and when you accept things that you shouldnt, when you tolerate things like january 6, then that can very easily become the new normal. Then it begins to be legal. And i think that is a big danger for us. And i think that, you know, we need to make sure that with our votes we are encouraging those people and supporting those people who will stand up for the constitution. Dean baker why do you think we are in the state of affairs that we are . My sense that it is not it used to not be like this, that words mattered more and there used to be an impetus to reach across the aisle for either common sense regulation and law or pressing outside National Interests and that kind of bipartisanship we rarely see now. And, as somebody who espouses evidencebased policy for a living, i have to say sometimes it feels like people are not really listening to evidencebased policy anymore. What happened . Rep. Cheney i think it is a complicated question and i think, you know, here in illinois, for example, anybody who has not been to the abraham link and museum in springfield should go the Abraham Lincoln museum in springfield should go. It is memorable because it is an exhibit where they flash holograms on the walls of people in 19th century clothes, and as you walk through the exhibit, they are yelling things at you that they wrote to Abraham Lincoln, and they are horrible, and so it is very impactful because you walk through and realized, you know, that it is not obviously, sort of, everybody in the past of the horrific tragedy of the civil war is the worst example, but we have had periods of time before werther was before where there was obvious victory obvious vitriol and toxicity. We came through a. Of we came through a period of time. So when you are facetoface with people, when the families spend time together, you know, it makes it much more difficult to, you know, get in these partisan battles where you say horrible things about each other. I think social media has made that much easier, and that level of toxicity is dangerous for a republic, and the live, the lie about the election, that is a toxin in our system, our blood system as a republic, and so i do think part of it is individual responsibility. Everybody has got to be in a position where we are taking responsibility for how we treat each other and for engaging based on substance and policy differences and avoiding the reflexive partisanship that can be dangerous at this moment. Dean baker the january 6 a special committee is obviously one of the mechanisms for reckoning with what happened the january 6 special committee is obviously one of the mechanisms for reckoning with what happened and the goal for it to not happen again but what are you hoping the end product of the committee is . What do you want us to take away and hold in our hands at the end of the year . Rep. Cheney i think a number of things. First of all, we are working on a report based on the evidence we put forward in our hearings as well as additional evidence. We will talk about things like the security failure, like the extent to which there was clearly an intelligence failure, but as a committee, as we do that, theres one thing we will not do, and that is we will not blame the capitol police. We will not blame Law Enforcement for Donald Trumps mob, armed, that he sent to the capitol to stop the electoral count, but you will see further information in that report, and all we have done in that committee in terms of our hearing has been to put forward for people the evidence about the multiplayer plan then donald trump himself oversaw the multipart plan that donald trump himself oversaw, each element of that to stop the peaceful transition of power. And there is so much information that i think its really important for people to go back and watch the hearings if you havent do you think that he will respond to the subpoena and what will happen if he doesnt . Rep. Cheney he has a legal obligation. As i said before, the committee has been in discussions with his counsel, but he has a legal obligation like every citizen to appear, and if he does not and hes failed already to produce documents by the deadline, the committee will consider possible next steps, and separately, we are also obviously considering as part of the report criminal referrals. Dean baker you have alluded to some of the legislation that might clarify the honorific role of the Vice President in certifying results. What other things do you think need to happen at the federal or state level to help solidify the rule of life and the rule of law and peaceful transition of power . Rep. Cheney as we talk about this, i think it is important, with respect to the electoral count act, what president encouraged Vice President pence to do was illegal under the existing electoral count act and unconstitutional, so any suggestion that reforms are necessary to ensure that is illegal, which we have heard some people say, is civilly not the case. But i do think it is important to be clear. The legislation would raise the threshold necessary for exceptions and specific on the conditions under which members of congress can object. There seems to be willing to confusion among members about their role and responsibility. The founders did not intend congress to pick the president. And so this notion that the congress is some sort of court of last resort and can decide we are going to throughout the votes of millions of americans based on allegations of fraud that have been rejected by the courts and rejected by the counts and the recounts at the state level is just clearly extraconstitutional, so we will be very specific and clear on the basis on which objections can be made as well. Dean baker so thinking about how our system is intended to work and how it is set up, it seems as though our system of primary and general elections has increasingly driven candidates from the fringes to be appealing during the primary and then failing to meet the needs of the majority of people who are less extreme in a general election. Your own experience illustrates this dynamic at play. Again, to my naive reading, it seems more extreme than before, this trend has been amplified recently. Should we be doing something different, systematically . Rep. Cheney i think i mean, look. The power of individuals and the power of our votes is significant and important, and, yes, we certainly have situations now where you have districts that have been drawn so you end up with people that have the most extreme views, in too many cases, on either side. And the incentive for elected officials is the vote. And so i do think that, you know, we need to think about getting back to a place where you are voting for candidates based upon substance and policy, responsibility. Look, i also think there are fundamental problems with the way Congress Works and does not work. There are not a lot of incentives built in to work across the aisle, to try to find Common Ground where you can theres sort of constant campaigning in elections, and i think that, you know, what we are seeing now as a result of the fact that we dont know who is going to be in the majority is particularly on the republican side. We could have a situation, when you think about how speakers are elected, on january 3, when the new congress is sworn in, there will be a roll call vote alphabetically and members will have to stand and say, you know, for whom they are casting their vote for speaker. You can imagine a situation in the current environment where members at the beginning of the alphabet say donald trump. You dont have to be a member of the house to be speaker. If people on the republican side start standing up and saying donald trump, you could have an impact where many people say that and where donald trump will begin to view that as some sort of a loyalty test. That is the power that he is holding right now over Kevin Mccarthy and over a number of members in the leadership of the republican caucus. Dean baker so the implications so there are implications of governing in the house with a slim majority. Kevin mccarthy has been pursuing that speaker role. How do you see his ability to implement an agenda with a very slim majority governed by extreme elements by a fringe elements within his own party . Rep. Cheney first, he has to get the majority. That is not clear. Second, he has to be elected speaker, and donald trump may be his biggest obstacle to doing that. And then, look, i think that in the Republican Party in the house today, you have members who are very extreme. You certainly have people who are on the far left on the democratic side that are extreme members that are going to be in a position where they can actually run things. And i think that is dangerous. And i think that, if you just think about the kind of dealmaking that they are demanding and insisting on, you now, you cannot conclude that it is good for the country. Dean baker so, we used to think about threats to National Security as being something that unites people across the aisle. You know, it is a big day of news in a very long period of news for ukraine. We, you know, have examples of people like Marjorie Taylor greene saying we should not be funding efforts to help ukraine. How do you see national and interNational Security policy under a scenario with a slim republican majority shaping taking shape . Rep. Cheney well, i think, as a general matter, it is very important for the rest of the world to understand that, you know, United States of america has a functioning constitutional republic, that our democracy works, that they can count on us, and i do, as i said, think tuesday was a step in that direction. I also think words really matter, and so when you have members on both sides suggesting that somehow the United States will not continue to provide assistance to ukraine, thats bad policy. It is wrong and it helps our adversaries. And so i think i am hopeful that, you know, we will continue to see the kind of bipartisan support for that that we have seen so far. I have been troubled by reports that the Biden Administration is pushing the ukrainians to the negotiating table. I dont think that is our role. I think it is up to president zelenskyy and the ukrainian people. And they are right now engaged in an effort thats been more successful than anybody could have imagined. They have forced the russians to retreat. And they deserve the worlds support. They are on the front lines of freedom, so there should be no question about the message that goes out in terms of american support for the ukrainian people, further battle against the people, for theyre battle against the russian invasion. Dean baker do you see promising examples of individuals reaching across the aisle now to push that kind of unified front . Rep. Cheney i think so. On ukraine, certainly. Thats been a real bright spot of bipartisan support, and certainly International Support for the ukrainian people. And i think that, obviously, the select committee demonstrates that as well. You know, i think its been an education for each one of us on the select committee to have the chance to spend time working with people that we had not before. And its been a really good lesson about being able to say, yeah, we disagree a lot, on a lot of things, but we all as americans can come together when it comes to the constitution. And we also can have disagreements and discussions where we have debates that are civil. And i think people expect that. They should demand that. And we who are elected officials ought to conduct ourselves in a way worthy of that. Dean baker your own leadership role in the Republican Party used to involve, you know, characterizing the loyal opponents in the Democratic Party as people you disagreed with and you were responsible for a lot of that rhetoric. Has your view changed through experience on the select committee with your democratic colleagues or the things that have transpired over the last couple years . Rep. Cheney any elected official, if they were being honest with you, would feel that way, and absolutely, i have engaged in partisan politics in a way that if i could take back some sweets, i would. Dean baker what is wrong with tweets . I we will get back to that. Rep. Cheney and i really believe and everybody believes in really vigorous debate and we ought to have vigorous policy debates, but i do think that, after we saw what happened on january 6, we all have to take a step back and say wait a minute, you know, i can engage in a vigorous policy debate, but, you know, what happened on january 6 was, you know, a very clear effort by donald trump. In many ways, people believed him. They believed what he was saying was true and he took peoples patriotism in many cases and launched it as an attack against the capitol rep. Cheney i think that violence playing the role that it has come to play too often our politics is something we have to walk away from. Conduct yourselves like your kids are watching. Its not complicated. Dean baker it seems as though people are living in very different realities. The way we consume media, you mentioned twitter and social media, and people believed things that were just not supported by any evidence, it seems we are increasingly living in different media bubbles. Where you can live in a world that reinforces your own views over here and i can live in a world that reinforces my own views over here and they are separated from each other. Do you have any thoughts about what we should be doing as a matter of Public Policy to help bridge that and make it hard to propagate a falsehood on the American People . Rep. Cheney its a very important point and very complicated. Its certainly true that we end up in these silos and we only get information from people that agree with us. Its true that our adversaries are attempting to sew division and discord. Weve seen it recently in the last week. We had the head of the group in russia admit that they were attempting to interfere in our election. You see it in terms of the russian bots and others online. On all sides of these issues, just sewing discord. I think that, number one, is individual responsibility. We have to be willing and take responsibility for saying, i need to know that what im saying is truth, i need to test it out, i need to make sure im not just hearing things i want to hear and assume they are true. We also have to figure out what the rules of the road are for social Media Companies. I dont mean repealing section 230, i think they play a really important First Amendment role and they are in important platform. But i think there has to be responsibility for things like the algorithm, and the social Media Companies have algorithms that drive people to more and more radical places. I think they need to be accountable and responsible for that. I think our laws have not caught up with the role social media is playing in our lives. I think that when you hear that the leaders of these social Media Companies dont let their children on these platforms, that really tells you everything you need to know. [laughter] dean baker this accountability would come to would it come through regulation, would it come through transparency to populace and consumers . Rep. Cheney i think we need to look at all of those things. Again, keeping in mind the First Amendment issues here. Things like the algorithms, regulating the algorithms, ensuring that Liability Protections dont extend. If youve got algorithms as an example that drive people to terrorist financing fights, the companies have to be responsible for that. There is role for congress in deciding what other very radical places and formulas ought to be liability imposed. Dean baker i want to pick up on another thread you mentioned, the role of gerrymandering in creating primaries that create fringe candidates on both sides and what you see as a Public Policy mechanism to address increasingly gerrymandered restricts in different states . Rep. Cheney thats a really important question in both sides do it. Im not sure we know and both sides do it. Im not sure we know, there are states that do it by legislator, states that have separate commissions they establish. I dont know that you could look out one solution or the other and say that that works better. At the end of the day it comes down to candidates. The gerrymandered districts, the drawn districts dont always work the way that people think they are going to work. At the end of the day people are going to elect they have the right to elect to they want to. We need to make sure there are good candidates so people have choices. We need to make sure we are educated about how Congress Really works. When you have how Congress Really works. When you have Congress Getting pieces of legislation that are a trillion dollars and we have an hour of debate because there is no Committee Process or mark up comes out of leadership on both sides, thats not how congress ought to operate. Weve been trending in that direction away from Committee Work and more towards leadership making decisions since Newt Gingrich instituted that. I think we need to reverse that and go back to a regular order legislative process. Dean baker you went out and stumped this cycle for a few Democratic Candidates who are in races against the and there are real victories there. As we said, that mustve been a little surprising to you, as well as everybody else. Do you see a place for people like you and the Republican Party Going Forward . Rep. Cheney i hope so. Most of my career was outside of congress. As i think about congress and i think about the people who i respect, i do think about it from the context of, if we werent in congress, who are the people that i would really be able to work with . Who are the people that i know are doing the right thing . When i looked at that list, theres a group of women, i served with most of them on the Armed Services Committee Abigail spanberger, former c. I. A. Officer these are women i dont agree with on a lot of issues, but i trust them. I know they will do the right thing and they will be prepared and they will do their homework. They care about their constituents, they care about the country, and we need that level of competence. In the case of Abigail Spanberger and elissa slotkin, they were running against opponents who had embraced the big lie. Abigail spanberger opponent said january 6 was the exercise of the First Amendment right. Those were not tough decisions to make. [applause] dean baker so whats next for you . [laughter] rep. Cheney i, obviously im going to be working on the select committee and finishing out my time as wyomings representative, then i will make decisions after that. As i said, tuesday was a good day, but this battle is far from over. I have said the most important thing is to make sure donald trump is nowhere near the oval office ever again. That commitment remains. [applause] rep. Cheney so, im going to do whatever i need to do to make sure thats the case. Dean baker it seems as though, at the same time that donald trump Saul Ron Desantis star rise substantially, how do you see his role as the future potential leader of the Republican Party . Rep. Cheney i think the Republican Party has a lot of future potential leaders. [laughter] [applause] dean baker diplomatically put, unsurprisingly. We are going to turn shortly to audience questions, get your questions ready. Before i do, there are a lot of people here who would like to make a difference in politics and Public Policy. Do you have advice for people interested in entering the political sphere, to do productive things and try to drive us towards a more substantive body politics . Rep. Cheney my advice is to it. It can be easy to sit back and be a little bit intimidated by all of the different people running for office, whats involved. But what ive learned and what i knew, that weve all seen firsthand since january 6 is, having good committed responsible people in office is necessary for the survival of the republic. If you have it all have at all any interest or might be interested in running, i dont care if you are democrat or republican, if you are smart, good, and you are committed, you want to make sure you are fighting for the constitution, please run for office. [applause] dean baker do you see the opportunity to make a difference at state and local levels as well as in washington . Rep. Cheney so important. If you look at whats happening today and people like steve van and have been vocal about efforts to put candidates look at seats for which there arent many people running in local offices and school boards. Committee precinct slots, those offices really do matter. They are very, very important. It doesnt have to be running for a National Office or even state legislator, but every office up and down the ballot, we need good people. Please, very important, please run. Dean baker with that call to action, we will turn to the microphone to ask questions. I will remind everyone there are lots of people who want to ask questions. Please keep your questions brief. Questions should end with a question mark. Please ask your pithy question now. I will look to the microphone. There is one there and one over here. Giving people a second to sort. Please. My name is kate, im an intern here at the iop. I have a question about young voters. In states like pennsylvania, voters 18 to 25, 70 up, im asking the Republican Party about what they think about messaging towards young people . Whats the strategy and how do they get people to start voting . Rep. Cheney its a really important question in the fact that we had so many young people vote on tuesday is a really positive thing. Theres a responsibility not just to go with the flow, i know that on College Campuses it can be a lot easier to be a liberal and vote for the democrats, and i would say people need to educate themselves. Think about what the issues really are, why are you voting the way you are voting . You all know this better than i do, my sense is that young people arent thinking about should i be a republican or a democrat. I say this based on talking to my kids and their friends, its much more, how can i make a difference . How can i do something that matters for my country in the world . I think its less about republicans figuring out how to get young people to vote republican as a partisan matter and more about being able to have the discussions about, what does this candidate believe . And, what do republican policies mean in your life and the life of the nation . And having discussions around issues that we all have to get back to. Thank you. Thank you for coming in today. I am an editor for the chicago thinker. On the january 6 committee you ally yourself with congressmen who decried the 2016 election as stolen and challenge former President Trumps victory. You stated, if we elect election deniers, we are putting the republic at risk. Preserving our electoral legitimacy, your opposition to election denier, how do you justify your collaboration with january 6 Committee Members . Rep. Cheney i think its an important point. As i said earlier, i dont believe that congress has any role in objecting to electoral votes. I think that when democrats did it, it was wrong, when the republicans did it, it was wrong. My view about the constitution is very clear. With respect to that committee, i think your question is mostly about is the committee partisan . I have to tell you that its the most Nonpartisan Committee ive ever served on. It is a committee where we dont agree on everything. You mentioned jamie raskin, whos become a very good friend of mine, jamie thinks we should abolish the Electoral College. I think thats wrong. There are a lot of issues even outside the committee that we dont agree on, but we agree on the most important thing. When i see my fellow republicans in my fellow conservatives who tried to prevent the investigation of the attack, who all knew in the days after the sixth, and they all knew so, this is wrong. Kevin mccarthy said donald trump bears responsibility. They all knew it was wrong. Slowly it became too uncomfortable, so the efforts started to whitewash what happened. The attack on this committee is partisan. The very first thing that was proposed was proposed by Kevin Mccarthy, which was a Bipartisan Commission. We negotiated with the democrats. We said to the democrats, we will have a Bipartisan Commission, these are the terms. We want equal numbers of democrats to republicans, we want equal subpoena power, equal division and the staff among democrats and republicans. Do you know what the democrat said to us . Done. Do you know what Kevin Mccarthy said . Never mind, im walking away. He pulled his support from that commission. It passed the house. 35 republicans voted for it. It went to the senate and Mitch Mcconnell killed it in the senate. Then you are in a situation where you say to yourself, the Bipartisan Commission has been guilt, how has been killed, how can we as a congress a we will investigate the attack . Speaker pelosi said we will put border resolution, it passed, created the committee. Speaker mccarthy named five republicans to the committee, two of whom were totally unfit for service on this committee. [laughter] [applause] rep. Cheney Speaker Pelosi said that, she asked if i agreed with her, i said, yes, i agree. She rejected two of his five and Kevin Mccarthy pulled all of his five. It cannot be that we cant investigate the worst attack on the u. S. Capitol since the war of 1812 because the minority leader decided he would walk away from the investigation. Everybody should ask themselves, its not complicated. Why dont the republicans want the attack of january 6 investigated . Just ask that question. Im very proud of the work of this committee [applause] rep. Cheney and of the role that i have played in helping to make sure the American People know the truth about what donald trump did and how uniquely dangerous it was and remains to the republic. Thank you very much. [applause] hi, congresswoman cheney. Thank you for your loyal opposition is a great personal cost and loyal opposition for me is the foundation of democracy. Has democracy already hit bottom and is about to bounce back . Amid all the fatalistic warning about the fragility of democracy, how democracy died, are we confident at this moment to make a case for the resilience of democracy, and what would you want to say about that . Rep. Cheney that is a very important point. I think i would say first, there are elections that havent yet been decided that are really important in this regard. What happens in arizona, what happens in nevada, those elections will determine whether or not we have put people in office who have told us they wont respect the results of future elections in states that are very important for the 2024 president ial race. The threat remains. But, nobody should bet against democracy. I think that what we are seeing and what showed up in the results on tuesday is that the majority of the American People, regardless of party, do not want to watch the constitution be torched. And will stand up against that. Hi think it was really a heartening thing to see i think it was really a heartening thing to see, and we all have an obligation. We cant sit back and say the threat has passed, it hasnt. But we also need to know that our democracy, while fragile, has survived for 246 years. And with the commitment of the majority of people that believe in our constitutional foundation, it will continue to survive and thrive from many more. [applause] first of all, its an honor to speak with you, thank you for sharing your time with us. Im lucy, im 18 and a first year at the college. As a native puerto rican, every election season i see the results of my local election and wonder why as an american citizen i cannot have equal representation when living on the island. With your experience as an attorney, consultant and u. S. Congresswoman, why has the congress not offered a referendum on statehood as they did for alaska and hawaii in the 1950s . [applause] rep. Cheney they should, and i believe that puerto rico should be a state. [applause] rep. Cheney i i think its really important to look at both sites. He Jennifer Gonzalez is really wonderful and works incredibly hard. I think has been one of the most Effective Advocates for puerto rican statehood, certainly of anybody that ive talked to about it. Puerto rico is very well represented and i believe in statehood. Thank you so much. [applause] good afternoon, congresswoman cheney. Thank you for being here. I am a third year at the college. You said in the past that you are a classical republican, a defender of accountable government, and your goal is to defend democracy. Democracy means that we the people of the United States are the ones who choose who will sit in the oval office. How is that consistent with your goal to do whatever it takes to make sure donald trump isnt anywhere near the oval office . Rep. Cheney its precisely because i care so deeply for our democracy. Precisely because i believe so strongly that we believe we the people have to speak. As i watch whats unfolding in my party, and as i watch people who know better suggest that they could support him again, the democracy cannot survive a president whos willing to blow through all the guardrails of that democracy. I say this as somebody who voted with donald trump 93 of the time. I am a conservative republican. I am more conservative than most of the members in my conference who are now suggesting that they will support donald trump for president again. This is not about policy. But, i also know the incredible power that we entrust to our president. When you entrust that power, and when someone swears an oath, and the president s oath in particular, to ensure that the laws are faithfully executed, brings with it and obligation to defend all the branches of our government. Brings a particular obligation to defend how our government functions. It brings an obligation to, as all citizens have, abide by the rulings of the court. When you have a president who ignores the rulings of the court , who ignores the legitimate outcome of an election, who knows that there is a mop that he has summoned mob that he has summoned, that is angry and is armed and sends them to march on the u. S. Capitol to stop the counting of electoral votes in the peaceful transfer of power, thats a danger that we cant sustain. We entrust our president with these things. And i asked people to think about because sometimes when you talk about with donald trump did, we do all become numb. Think about if Dwight Eisenhower had summoned a mob to washington, an armed mob and sent them till march on the Supreme Court during brown v, and then when the mob was there attacking the court, refused to tell them to leave, and instead sent a message further inciting them. It is completely unimaginable because Dwight Eisenhower was an honorable man. He never would have done anything like that. But if you disagree with Everything Else that ive said about the outcome of the election and the rulings of the courts in the process by which the election was conducted, if you disagree with all of that, think to yourself what kind of human being sits in the dining room next to the oval office and watches the violent assault on television. And there are u. S. Capitol Police Officers here today who fought that battle. It was mid people, armed handtohand combat. Look at the video, donald trump watched that. People pleaded with him, they said you have to tell them to go home and he wouldnt do it. What kind of a human being is that . So i understand the threat of a president who wont honor our elections in the sanctity of our election process. That person can never be president again. You can disagree with me, but i will never change my view on that. [cheers and applause] good afternoon, congresswoman. Im a second year at the college. My question today is, on channel 8 fifth and six of 2021, a man named ray was recorded encouraging people to storm the capital storm the capitol. He was present on the front line during the initiation of the attack. An alert was made after the event of january 6, but shortly after it was rescinded. While men such as William Leary have been arrested and imprisoned without entering the capitol, why did the committee not recommend the request . Rep. Cheney we are a member of the legislative body, its a responsibility of the Justice Department. The Conspiracy Theory about ray epps is that its just a lie. Ive seen it out there and its just one of those pieces of what weve seen around january 6 that has pushed by people that want to suggest that this attack was something other than what it really was. I can tell you that the committee has interviewed mr. Epps, the Justice Department has been very clear that mr. Epps has no connection to being under their employment. Theyve done Everything Possible to put to rest this can this Conspiracy Theory. I think mr. Epps life has really he has faced tremendous threat because of the sly this lie. This goes back to the question about what do we do about social media. I think its incredibly important to question conspiracy theories like this. The conspiracy theories are being pushed and promoted and its disinformation, its just simply not true. I think its really important for people to question why these conspiracy theories are out there. I hope youve watched our hearings. I think that if you watch the hearings, watch the summaries of the hearings, its very clear that there was a premeditated plan by donald trump to declare victory no matter what the outcome was. He then corruptly attempted to pressure state officials to change the outcomes in their state. He attempted corruptly to change the leadership of the department of justice. The department of justice was telling him there was no fraud to overturn the election. He did not like that answer and went to find people who would give him the answer he wanted. His campaign told him, his white house counsel, he attempted to pressure the Vice President and then summoned the mob and sent them to the capitol and did not tell them to stand down. Another important part about our hearings is, the vast majority of the witnesses if you dont like my view of donald trump or dont believe me the vast majority of our witnesses are republicans. People he appointed or people in his own family who have come forward to testify about what was happening and that period of time. And its important to watch those and ask what happened and how can we protect ourselves. Thank you. Thank you so much for being here. In an effort to win your primary put out a campaign ad featuring your father and former Vice President dick cheney who, in his condemnation of former President Donald Trump said, a real man would not lie to his supporters. As many would recall your father stated as an unequivocal truth narratives that at the time were discredited or disputed by u. S. Intelligence. Justify a bloody war with iraq or a war that killed hundreds of thousands or more in the storming of the u. S. Capitol. Whether he met with iraqi intelligence in prague, that Saddam Hussein hadnt established with al qaeda that the same weapons of mass destruction. The falsities of these narratives led public trust in government to plummet. So how do you respond to those who believe your fathers actions during his tenure as Vice President eroded this trust that he holds so highly . Rep. Cheney they are wrong. [applause] rep. Cheney look, i obviously disagree with your characterization of the policies of the Bush Administration and of the iraq war, im happy to have the discussions with you about that, and i think that its important to have facts in that discussion, including the fact that you had Senior Leaders and al qaeda, including the number two and al qaeda who had been given safe haven in iraq after 9 11, for years. So thats one part of what you laid out, the notion is that there is no connection between Saddam Hussein and the leaders of al qaeda. The extent to which Saddam Hussein violated multiple i cant remember the number, 12 or 13 National Security council resolutions. The extent to which it was very clear, despite efforts since then to change the narrative that there were connections between saddam and al qaeda. Certainly, i can go on and on again about your characterization of policy. I would say that there is a big difference between debates about policy, which we have to have in a democracy. And, a president who think about this, donald trump knew more than probably just about any other american about the results of the election. In one of the most important pieces of our hearings is a comparison that we put together that you will see in the report that shows specific allegations donald trump was making. Whether about the suitcases in georgia or about ballot dumps. The specific allegations testimony by his attorney general, his Deputy Attorney general, his, is Campaign Manager telling him those are not true, along with dates, and then donald trump says them again. Time and time again dominion voting machines, time and time again he has shown the evidence, he shown that it isnt true and he goes out and says it again. One of the things that has been interesting is as the select committee has aired our hearing, its clear that people in the Justice Department are telling donald trump this isnt true, this is not true, they did not know the people in his campaign were telling him the same thing. They were all telling him its not true. So its not true and 61 out of 62, including many judges that he appointed told him, no, there is no evidence, i wont fill out the votes, you are making these claims of fraud he made them publicly in his lawyers wouldnt make the same claims in court, or in the case of rudy giuliani, did and lost their law license. So he went through every single process in our system and he had the right to do that up until the courts ruled and up until december 14. What once the Electoral College is met, thats it, thats the end. And he knew that he was being told that these claims were true. He admitted that he knew he lost on more than one occasion. And yet, he pretrade the trust of his supporters. And i think thats the thing that is really important for people to understand. People believed him and people still believe him. And that is a disgraceful tragedy because what he saying is absolutely false, what hes saying about the january 6 committee, what hes saying about the people who have been jailed because of january 6. Think about this, we have people who have pled guilty to seditious conspiracys. That is not to january 6 committee saying people committing seditious conspiracy, thats not the Justice Department saying it, individuals who said im guilty, im pleading guilty to suggest this seditious conspiracy, which means the attempt to overthrow violence in the United States of america is the worst thing. So, i think its really important to separate out policy disputes and disagreements from a president whos attempting to undermine the constitution. [applause] dean baker i think we will go to the next question, thank you. My name is francis cavanagh, and grab im a graduate a graduate student. During the presidency reagan said there is only one berlin and we in the west should resist soviet expansion. Given the international interconnectedness in terms of trade, energy, manufacturing and rising tensions in the east and south china sea, what do you make of recent u. S. Strategy in the region and what do you think the future of u. S. Led principal driven Coalition Building and the pacific looks like . Rep. Cheney thank you for the question. I think that administrations of both parties have gotten china wrong. I think that you had, for a long time, disbelief, the clinton administration, the Bush Administration, the obama administration, this idea that the west helps china to open up economically, we help them become members of the world trade organization, that they would be forced to open up politically. And part of why that was so wrong i think is the rise of technology and the ability of the Chinese Communist party to use technology to impose the surveillance state in china. And they have, for a long time, understood that the United States of america is the leader of the free world, they believe that their own success demands and depends upon their defeat of us, and theyve been working to do that using every tool at their disposal, not just the increase that weve seen in military spending in the deployment and new weapon systems. And while they been doing that, we have not understood that for too long. We have not understood, we havent realized. I think today, one of their messages to countries across asia is, the United States has got so many problems, you cant count on them. You see this in the open source reporting that they are suggesting that democracy is somehow at an end. Ethic its very important for us, number one, to be realistic about the threat that we face. And its not just china, china is a very significant threat, but so is iran, north korea, russia, and all of those threats become interconnected if they think america is weak, distracted or wont defend our allies. I say this to all of the students in the room, if you have the chance to study the current strategy, please do, its an area of study that we really focused on during the cold war, how do you deter other nations from using their weapons against us . And its an area that has fallen out of favor, but we really need it. And it has to inform our posture, it has to inform what kinds of Weapons Systems we invest in, it has to inform our level of military spending. Theres just no question that america has to realize and recognize that a world in which china gets to set the rules is a global surveillance state. Freedom cannot exist in that world, and thats whats on the line, and we have to make sure that we are doing much better at meeting and defeating that challenge. [applause] my name is christina, im a second year masters student at the harris School Public policy, thank you for your time today. You mentioned voters should have good candidates to choose from. Given the polarization within the Republican Party, do you think americans are ready for a Third Major Party . Rep. Cheney i think that there are more republicans talking about that possibility than youve ever seen before. I think if donald trump becomes the nominee, the Republican Party will shatter. I think the question is for the Republican Party and for my fellow republicans, are you willing to stand up for the truth . Are you willing to get back to providing further voters the substance in the base of what people should vote for us, or are you going to become a cold personality . I guess the answer is we dont know for sure how this is going to unfold. I think our system is structured for two parties, and i hope that the Republican Party can climb back from where it is today. I think its much better for the country if it can. My name is daniel, im a second year. I hope to run for office year, so its great to talk to a representative. Rep. Cheney you just have about six more weeks. I appreciate it. I have been following the january 6 committee closely and i want to ask about the facts. On june 9 you cited that the department of justice and their prosecution of the proud boys, some of the members of the proud boys and the department of justice said these members directed, mobilized and put members of the crowd onto the u. S. Capitol grounds and onto the u. S. Capitol. Thats a crime, and you made the right call. The fact of the matter is, we have another person on camera doing that. His name is ray apps and its not a Conspiracy Theory. The New York Times shows him saying we need to go into the u. S. Capitol, i am probably going to go to jail, tomorrow we need to go to the u. S. Capitol. We have an actual insurrectionist on tape and he escaped prosecution. That me ask you right here, do you demand the prosecution of ray apps, and actual insurrectionist on tape, do you his prosecution . Rep. Cheney let me answer the question because i think there is confusion about [applause] rep. Cheney confusion about the role of congress in confusion about who makes decisions about prosecutions. I dont think anybody denied that the videotape exists. Ive seen the videotape, ive seen thousands of people saying things like lets go into the capitol. You seen trials of a number of people who did go into the capitol. You seen convictions of thousands of them. So, i think the question is whether or not you understand who makes prosecution decisions. And the people who make the decisions about whether they are going to prosecute or not arent the department of justice. In terms of what ive seen and in terms of what we said, which is what the department of justice has said, mr. Epps, there are conspiracy theories around the role he was playing that day. People are pushing the notion that somehow he was doing what he was doing because the federal government was telling him to. Thats not true, there is no evidence. The Justice Department and committee have said that clearly. But i would say that if you are so concerned about violent acts at the u. S. Capitol on the sixth and about insurrection, it is really worth looking at the sands groups of these hearings and looking at what the judges have said. Nobody should use violence to attempt to overturn the government. Nobody should have used violence at all in our politics. Nobody should have summoned the mob to washington, d. C. And sent an armed mob to attack the u. S. Capitol. I think we all ought to agree on those basic things as americans and status and set aside conspiracy theories and agree fundamentally on what is the line in our democracy that cant be crossed. In that line has got to be, you cannot use violence to attempt to overturn the election. If you are the president of the United States you have to guarantee the peaceful transition of power and we have to be a nation of laws. Its not a partisan issue. [applause] dean baker we have time for one last question. A new question, yes. Hi, liz. Rep. Cheney hi. I appreciate your handling of an apologize for Daniel Schmidts behavior. [applause] my question for you tonight is, we talked extensively about social media and the problems that opposes for our democracy. So, the increase in polarization is not the only consequence we see, increasing suicide rates, anxiety rates among young people as a direct result of social media. This is one of the biggest problems facing our country. I want to know what are you going to do about social media, how are you going to get kids off of social media and do support policy to get kids off of social media . Rep. Cheney im a mother and i understand what social media can do and what it does and i understand the stresses and pressures that young people face today in our society. I think that there are many things that have to be done. Some have to be done at the federal level, some have to be done in communities. We need to train people to recognize and understand danger signs among young people. We need to do a better job at training ourselves, training teachers, Training Community leaders when they see behaviors that clearly are putting people at risk. And again, i think the social Media Companies the numbers that weve seen, particularly for instagram and what that has done in terms of young people, young girls especially, is something that we cant sustain. I dont know what all of the solutions are, i know that as a parent just as a parent first, its an issue that i care very deeply about, i think every parent does. Its an issue that ive worked on on the Armed Services committee because weve seen increases in levels of veteran suicides as well, and i think one of the big things that we need to confront is the stigma around mental health. I think there are too often veterans who are afraid of seeking help because they think it will show up in their record and be detrimental. Its not just veterans, i think there is still a stigma about mental health. I think we made a lot of progress in terms of helping to eliminate that. But the support has to be there, people have to know that they can seek help, and we have to find the things in society like the social media platforms that are contributing to depression and to other concerns among young people and do everything we can at every level to help protect our young people. [applause] dean baker please join me in thanking congresswoman chaining for a truly illumin congers returns for legislative work on monday. There will be talks on the house and Senate Floors on funding the government through next year. The senate will continue debate on 2020 the defense programs and policy legislati and vote on president bidens judial nominations. Watch live coverage of theouse on cspan, the senate on cspan2. You can also watch on our free cspan video app, cspan now, or online at cspan. Org. Be uptodate with book tvs podcast, about books. 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