Isil. We thought isis sounded better and would be more familiar to people even though the president refers to the group as isil. Brian why is there a difference between the president using isil and some people using Islamic State . Jessica the president doesnt want to call it the Islamic State because they claim to be a state, but they are not. He does not want to give them that credit. We called it isis just for editorial, to make it easier. Thats the only reason. Brian what was the reason to write the book . Jessica my editor asked me to write the book. It wasnt actually my idea. In fact, i was in the middle of writing another book that is taking me a long time. When he first asked me, i was about to say no. And then, i realized that it is a very important topic and people really need to know about it. So thats why. Brian you have a coauthor, j. M. Berger. What role did he play . Jessica i didnt know enough about social media. I told my agent, there is a guy on twitter who knows a lot about social media. Maybe i will make him a character in the book. My agent said, why dont you make him a coauthor . I barely knew the guy. I got to know him on twitter. I had only met him once. But it was a very good decision. He is a great guy. And we had fun working together. Brian what did he bring to the book . Jessica he has been communicating with terrorists on social media since they started using social media. So he really knows a lot about what they say, how they use social media. He developed software with someone from google to monitor their use of social media. He is also a good writer. He brought a lot to the book. Brian here is propaganda video from isis. [video clip] [mortar fire] president obama our combat troops will not be returning to fight in iraq. [explosions] brian what impact does this sort of thing have on the world . The video, and then we will get to isis. Jessica for most people, it is horrifying and terrifying. For some people who want to reinvent themselves, it is apparently exciting. Who want to reinvent themselves as violent terrorists. Brian where and when did isis start . Who are they . Jessica isis came to International Attention when they started beheading foreigners. I mean, that is when they got the attention they were seeking. But it comes out of al qaeda in iraq. Which was formed in 2004. So, it does, in some ways, come out of the invasion of iraq in 2003. And it has changed names, changed leaders, but it is essentially al qaeda in iraq under new leadership, with a somewhat different agenda. Brian could we find a headquarters somewhere . Jessica isis has a headquarters in syria now, in rocca. Yes. Brian back to the iraqi situation and al qaeda coming out of the 2003 invasion. What makes up that group . Sunnis, shias . Jessica al qaeda in iraq was led by a former criminal who had been secular, and had been living a life of crime. He decided he wanted to cleanse himself of that life of crime, and he started a series of terrorist organizations. He went to afghanistan, he met Osama Bin Laden, and in 2004, he actually agreed to become a franchise of al qaeda, al qaeda in iraq. Brian who was that . Jessica his name was zarqawi. He formed a group that started beheading, i mean, one of the things people dont realize is that isis was not the First Organization to use beheading. He was beheading westerners, he was beheading shiites, and he was also filming his beheadings. But he had very low production value. He didnt get the same kind of attention that isis has. With its very revolting videos. Brian we have videos of zarqawi. I wanted to ask you to Pay Attention to the translation at the bottom. [video clip] brian if mohammed was here today, what would he think of that based on what you have read in the koran and other writings . Jessica i am a bit uncomfortable answering that question. I do not believe that isis is islamic. I believe that they are, they take passages of islamic teachings, text, and use it to justify violence in the same way identity christians do that. But very few christians would recognize identity christians, which is a neonazi sect, as christian. Very few have even heard of them. Very few muslims recognize the islam that isis promotes. On the other hand, i am uncomfortable voicing what mohammed, how he would react. It just does not deal to be my place. Feel to be my place. Brian what happened to zarqawi . Jessica he was killed in 2006 in a u. S. Airstrike. The group continued, and it changed its name to the Islamic State of iraq. Eventually, baghdadi, who is now the leader of isis, took over the Islamic State of iraq. Brian who is baghdadi . Jessica he is a cleric. He reportedly has a phd in islamic studies. He had been in a u. S. Run detention facility in iraq, and started organizing the group that would ultimately become isis while he was in prison. He populated his organization with people who had spent time in u. S. Detention facilities in iraq. Brian where would you find him now . Jessica he does not show himself very often. I assume that he is moving around. He tries to stay hidden. I think he knows he is a very attractive target. Brian we have video also of him. Again, watch the bottoms so you can understand. [video clip] brian what do you think of what he was saying . Jessica he would like to see all muslims feel obligated to join the caliphate that he has established. I mean, it is pretty outrageous. I think King Abdullah of jordan, he calls him an outlaw. He says this caliphate that baghdadi has established has nothing to do with islam. I think the most muslims view it that way. Brian we have a map to show where isis controls the territory. Part of iraq, part of syria, right up to the turkish border. How long has it taken them to control this part of that world . Jessica it has taken them, it took them months, actually. Brian is it expanding . Jessica they are expanding into libya. They are, they have groups that have pledged allegiance to them, including boko haram in nigeria. They are seeking to expand all over the world. That is their goal. Brian what is a caliphate . Jessica an islamicbased state. They believe that when the caliphate was ended, around world war i, that it was imperative to reestablish the caliphate in advance of the end times. Brian what was it about world war i . What was the area of the caliphate . Jessica i dont know exactly, i am sorry. I dont know the whole area. It was around turkey. You probably know. Brian no, actually. Is baghdadi a caliph . Jessica he is selfanointed. In order to take on that role, he needed to be a descendent of the prophet. He claims he is. Brian what is the difference between, i know sunnis are dominant in the world. 1. 6 billion muslims. And the shia. What is the difference between those two . Jessica they have different practices. From the perspective of isis one of the most important differences is that shia have monuments, they have holy, i am sorry, i shouldnt go into this. I have that in the glossary. I am sorry youre going to have , to cut this out. I just brian tell me about the glossary. Jessica we have it in the appendix of the glossary. I had a doctoral student write this. Brian how did you approach this from the very beginning . Jessica i am not a scholar of islam. I am a scholar of terrorists. I can talk about terrorists from across religions, but i am not a religious scholar. In order to write the book, i got a scholar of religion to teach people about the differences. Brian what part did the scholar write . The glossary and appendix . Who did you hire to do that . Jessica a doctoral student from brown who has become my doctoral student. Im helping her with the terrorism part of her dissertation. Brian what is your fulltime work now . Jessica i am a lecturer at harvard. I am teaching a freshman seminar on terrorism. It is called, the terrorist. Brian why do students want to come to your class . What is the motivation . Jessica students are interested in terrorism. Some of them were in new york on 9 11. I have a tunisian Computer Science student who was serious curious about terrorism. He is totally secular, but he wanted to understand what is happening in his country of origin, where quite a few young people have joined isis. Brian how large is your class . Jessica the freshman seminars at harvard, we accept 12 students. Brian what is your approach to teaching . In other words what material do you use to get through it the semester . Jessica we teach them about many different organizations. I have, i teach with someone who is a forensic psychiatrist and an attorney. We look at lone wolf terrorists who claim to be christian, we look at the unabomber. We look at terrorists. All kinds of terrorists. Brian so what are the motivation of those students . Is it an elective or part of a major . Jessica it is an elective. Freshman have the opportunity to take one very small class where they really get to know the faculty. For me, its really fun, because i get to know the students really well. Part of what is happening is that they are learning about terrorism and they are curious about terrorism. Also, they are getting to be in a really small group. Most classes are much larger. Brian your approach to this book, how did you set out to do it . Jessica well, both my coauthor and i had been following the groups that turned into isis over time. We had been following al qaeda in iraq, the Islamic State of iraq, we followed el nusra, and we followed isis. Baghdadi declared he was going to be the leader of isis and alnusra, which was in syria and they would be together in a group called isis. We were also following when the zawahri kicked baghdadi out. So, we knew something about it but neither of us was planning on writing the book. We had been writing articles about it. We tried to figure out what was most important for people to know about this group, is it really is not really new but has a new name and a new mission. Brian if Osama Bin Laden was alive, when do you think, based on following him over the years, he would think of his success . Would he feel successful . Jessica i dont think bin laden would be very happy with isis. I dont think he would be happy with the way they are killing so many muslims. In fact, zawahri, his deputy wrote to zarqawi, the leader of al qaeda in iraq, and said, this is not good for our image. Bin laden was very concerned about the image of al qaeda. He thought that killing muslims was harming the image of al qaeda. It is pretty clear he would not have been happy with the direction that baghdadi has taken isis. Brian what do you think his feeling would be about the impact he has had on this country . Jessica i think he would probably feel approving of the way this country is gearing up in some ways, to respond. Bin laden really wanted to goad the west into reacting. I think he would think what baghdadi is doing is good in that regard. Even though baghdadi says he is beheading westerners to keep us out of iraq and syria, it is clear that he really wants us there and indeed, needs us there to fulfill his narrative about the final battle and the end times. Brian zawahri, where is he . Jessica i assume he is in pakistan. Brian we havent found him . Jessica i cant speak for the government. I dont know what they know or dont know. But i dont know personally who , he is. Brian he is head of al qaeda now. We will run some videos of video now. [video clip] brian what is your sense of why, what are they trying to do . Whats the point . Jessica baghdadis point is to spread this caliphate around the whole world. That is his fantasy. That he will be able to establish a shariabased state under his leadership around the world. But he also is trying to fulfill a narrative about the end times and the apocalypse. Brian so sharia law, have you studied that . Jessica no, i really havent. I mean i understand it only as , much as terrorists try to promote it. Brian we have people who spend their lives in this country saying that it is coming and we are not stopping it and someday we will live under sharia law. If we did, what impact would it have on us . Jessica sharia law, as practiced in saudi arabia, means that people are beheaded for certain crimes. It means they are stoned for certain crimes. Those are aspects of sharia law as practiced in saudi arabia that most americans would find repugnant. As practiced in saudi arabia women cannot drive. Women do not have equal rights. Those are aspects of how it is interpreted in saudi arabia and certainly by isis, that most of us in america would find utterly unacceptable. Brian do you have any sense, when you hear people predict it will come to this country someday, do you think that will happen . Jessica no. I dont. Brian why . Jessica i dont see how it could. Americans would never accept that, i think very few Muslim Americans would accept that. Brian i guess thats what i wanted to ask. Inside our country, there are different places where muslims live. Would they be able to, under our constitution, bring sharia law to their world . Jessica it is something i cant imagine. I cant imagine that happening. I cant imagine, i am sure there are small groups of muslims who would like to see that happen in america, but the vast majority would never accept the way sharia law is interpreted by isis or saudi arabia, certainly. Brian what is your view about how the American Government is dealing with terrorism . Jessica i think that terrorism presents many different kinds of threats. Isis in particular presents a military threat, especially to the countries that surround the area it controls. It presents a terrorist threat to the entire world. It presents an ideological threat. Isis is able, astonishingly, to to attract westerners. One of the biggest problems for us in the west is precisely that, that somehow, it is able to attract people who want to reinvent themselves with a very clear, black and white identity, where it is clear with the good guys are, with the bad guys are, a version of islam that most muslims do not accept or recognize. Brian in the clinton administration, you worked in the National Security council for how long, and what did you do . Jessica i worked the National Security council for one year. I was director for russianukrainian and eurasian affairs. That sounds highfalutin, but i mainly worked on Nuclear Smuggling and the possibility of terrorists getting access to nuclear materials. Jessica brian right now, how do you think the National Security council and the white house is getting their information . We often hear that we dont understand. Do you know people working in the administration . Jessica it was 20 years ago and i worked in the administration. I dont know very many people working in the administration today. I did recently attend the white house summit on countering violent extremism. One of the things they are trying to do is run pilot projects in three cities to prevent individuals from getting recruited to terrorist groups acting abroad, or potentially, acting at home, where they have pilot projects in st. Paul minnesota, and los angeles, and my hometown of boston. Brian if the president called you up right now and wanted to talk to you about this book and what is in it that he could benefit from, what would you say to him . Jessica i think there are two aspects of isis that are very, very important for the president to understand. One is their efforts and successes on social media and the need for us to respond to that, to counter the narrative they are spreading so affect of late and so far. The other is their apocalyptic narrative. Of course it is impossible for , me to know for sure whether they really believe the end times are coming, or whether they are capitalizing on widespread belief in muslimmajority countries, that they will witness the end of times. So are they manipulating people . Are they spending this narrative spinning this narrative about the end of time as a recruitment drive . Or, do they really believe it . Part of what they anticipate will occur is that there will be a battle both the between sunni and shia, and a battle between isis and rome, which many people interpret as the west. They want to carry out the minor signs and the major signs leading up to the end times. It is really important that we understand this. Brian let me show you some video that the state department used to counter the propaganda. Brian will it work . Does it work . Jessica i think they are trying to measure the effectiveness. Obviously that looks horrifying to us, would make us think twice about joining a group that is doing that. But, some young people find the production values of isis videos much more appealing. Than the state departments rendition. They have definitely gotten better over time. The other problem with the state departments efforts, is that it is the state department. The fact that it is the state department running, think again, turn away, makes it less edible. Less credible. I would like to see nongovernment organizations getting involved. I like to see many people watching this program. Think about how they might counter isis. Anybody who has something to offer. I think we all need to really think about that. For over 12 years, i have been arguing that the people who need to counter this message need to be the same age as those who are being recruited. There is now an organization in california called edventures that is having students at universities around the world compete to come up with platforms for spreading counter messaging. What i think we need to do is find former terrorists who can speak very eloquently about whether their experience was. There are plenty of former terrorists out there who said, i thought i was going to be helping people. I was witnessing beheading, or forced to be involved in horrific acts of violence that i will never recover from. The jihadi wife wives who get passed from husband to husband every week, we need to hear from these people who leave with the same kind of production values that isis is using. The fact that students are now getting a chance to develop a response and compete for the best response most effectively i think its great. Brian what would have happened in world war ii when the germans were exterminating the jews, if there had been twitter and iphones and cameras and the internet . Would it make a difference . What is the difference by the way, from what the germans did to what isis is doing now . Jessica the first obvious difference is that isis is flaunting its brutality. Isis is not uniquely brutal in history, it is not uniquely barbaric. But the fact that it is flaunting its barbarism, that is, as far as i know unique. And certainly the way it is able to spread images of barbarism so widely, that is certainly unique. What would have happened if the germans did the same thing . Really what isis is doing would be analogous to the nazis trying to recruit americans or people in the enemy countries to join its side by showing acts of barbarism. That is essentially what isis is doing. I think as a result it is getting psychopaths. It is attracting psychopaths. That is not the only people theyre attracting by any means, but those that they are attracting in the west, clearly they are getting a higher percentage of people attracted to violence than we have seen in the past. Brian when you and your coauthor talk about the new media and all of that, what is your own conclusion . New media is good or bad for the world . Jessica i think it is good for the world, but i think we have to ask my coauthor. I just think this is the dark side of the new media. We have not come up with a way to deal with that. We have not yet come up with a way to deal with it. Brian in your conversations with him, does he think there is a way . Jessica he has been an advocate of taking down terrorist recruitment messages. He knows i think i can speak for him in this regard he knows it cant possibly be 100 effective, but what we would like to do is make it a little bit more difficult for isis to recruit. Youtube has been very active. Facebook has been very active. Twitter has now become much more active. Isis is now threatening people working for twitter. Because they are so angry. They have been able to use twitter effectively. One of the things that is so great about twitter is, if you are interested in gardening or cooking, it will help you find other people who are interested in whatever your passion is. Unfortunately, it also help people find others interested in isis or joining isis. Twitter is now taking a much more active stance against this. Brian we have some video of beheadings. We are not going to show the actual beheading, but about two minutes of this. I have never seen this before. You can find all of this on the internet. This particular one, we will show two minutes of it, because it shows from almost beginning to end beheadings of Something Like 17 people. This was at the end of last year. You cannot be sure about this video, you never know where it is coming from or what timing is on it. I would just one people if they dont want to have anything to do with this, turn it off at this point. We will not show the actual beheadings. That we get pretty close to it. We will run this and get the opinion of the impact of it. Today the soldiers and tomorrow your soldiers. We will break this last crusade and the Islamic State will begin to slaughter your people on your street. Brian what do you think . Jessica i think two things. The impact is one wants to just put a stop to it right now. You can feel how i feel, i want to stop them. That is part of what they want. They want us to go and fight them over there. Apparently there are people who see a video like that and think, i want to join them. I think what happened what isis is doing, they are capitalizing in the region on the disenfranchisement of sunnis. They are getting people there who want to protect their own families. Who feel under siege either by asaad or by the sectarian especially under mall i can the sectarian regime in iraqi. Those they attract in the west, clearly some of them know this is happening and actually want to join. I think the more important response is that it makes us want to go protect those people right now. We want to go and fight isis. And im not sure that is the best thing for the world. Brian why . Jessica i think the presence of western troops could really assist isis with its recruitment. Isis has a narrative about a battle between the west and islam. We really dont want to feed into that narrative. Brian from what you have observed, do Many Americans want to send troops into this situation . Jessica the polls suggest that more than half of americans would like to send in ground forces. Brian as you watched that video, first of all isis produced that. It is hard to even describe the fact that the production values are pretty good. The music. And you look at the faces of both sides, both those that are being beheaded and those that arent. There is nothing unusual looking about either side. You wonder what is going through a mans mind to pick up a knife and do a mass beheading. You studied terrorists, how did they do it . Jessica i can speak in general terms. They train. They learn to dehumanize the enemy, whether the enemy is anyone who doesnt go along with their interpretation of islam, shiites, also anyone, including sunnis who do not accept their interpretation of islam. They train to dehumanize. They are training children to behead people using dolls. They are starting on children. It takes training to get someone to erode empathy the way they are doing things. You turn someone into a monster deliberately. Brian lets look at the map again of where isis has the territory at the moment. Thats the orange part of this. Where do they get money . Jessica one of the most difficult aspect of countering this organization is that they dont require contributions the way previous jihadi organizations have. They are a very effective criminal organization. They are selling oil, they are selling antiquities. They have been involved in crime for profit since al qaeda in iraq. They have longstanding smuggling routes. Indeed, al qaeda asked zarkawi the leader of al qaeda in iraq for money. I kind of al qaeda was so effective criminal activities for money, that al qaeda itself asked him for donations. Brian there is a recent story in the wall street journal that suggests that hundreds of millions of dollars that we send to iraq for the government to use to pay the people there is being siphoned off to a sisto buy weapons and ammunition. Jessica apparently a fraction of the money that is being used to pay iraqi officials is being siphoned off as a form of taxation. Yes. Brian how many people belong to isis . Jessica approximately the numbers vary. Approximately 100,000. Brian predominantly sunni or shia . Jessica predominantly sunni. Brian 90 of the muslims in the world are sunni. Why arent the sunnis reacting stronger to this than they have so far . Jessica they are reacting very strongly. We have many many clerics who are talking about isis misinterpretation of islam. The problem is, they are not doing it in a compelling way. I think that we need people who can create a response using similar production values that would appeal to the very people isis is trying to recruit around the world. There are approximately the figures vary Something Like 20,000 foreign fighters acting on behalf of isis. Those people need to hear from clerics who can speak in an exciting way, who can say this is why this is wrong. This is not how we interpret islam. But it cant be boring video. It has to be well produced. Brian have any idea where the money is coming from . Any of the arab countries or shia countries iran, iraq . Jessica isis is a sunni organization and there have been videos who want to support isis in some sunni majority countries. Saudi arabia, kuwait qatar. Saudi arabia has apparently completely shut down the flow of money. According to the Treasury Department money is still to some extent going in through kuwait, but that is not important. What is more important for isis is it is able to selffund, at least for now. Brian ive noticed a trend. Its a bit complicated, but a lot of people that are involved in what is going on over there were educated in the United States. I have a list of about five. The president of afghanistan spent a decade in this country and got a phd from columbia in this country. Cody Shaikh Mohammed, the mastermind of 9 11, got a one of the writers, an egyptian, spent two years in this country and went to Colorado State and stanford and went on to join the Muslim Brotherhood and have a big impact of what he wrote negatively about the United States. The oddest one of all, or in the sense of the foreign minister of iran, Mohammed Zari went the university of denver and got a p. H. D. At the joseph corbel street and that is the father of madeleine albright. His daughter and son were born in this country. Are we making a mistake by having such openness here in letting these people come over here and learn the world . From our perspective . Jessica certainly not, i dont think so. Obviously Shaikh Mohammed is a terrorist. Then most of the people you are mentioning are not terrorists per se no, i think i would never try to close off education just because in the United States, just because sheik mohammed became a terrorist. Brian i was also thinking about the foreign minister of iran who spent a decade in this country. And then isnt iran part of some of the money being funded to isis . Jessica iran is fighting isis. Isis poses a threat to iran. I certainly if there is individual money, if individuals in iran are funding isis, that is possible. Brian let me show you some video from your last stop here back in 2003. Get your reaction to what you see of the former jessica stern. Brian you dedicate the book to evan and jeff. Who are they . Jessica my son and my husband. My son is almost 2. Brian what about the personal side of all this . Do you ever feel threatened or you might be marked as of the way you take this information and present it in books and interviews. Jessica i will not be going back to talk to terrorists in the field the way i did researching this book. Having a child completely changed my feeling about doing that. Even though i was always extremely careful, still having seen what happened to daniel pearl, who did exactly what i did, i believe being a woman made me much safer. Nonetheless with a son, that is not something i will do. I probably will not go back to pakistan where i am told i am the best known american among the jihadis. Brian did you go back at all since then . Jessica no, i didnt. Brian our first discussion is available, it talks about where you went looking for the same thing we are talking about here. Your son is 15 now. Jessica he is now 13. Brian 13. What is he doing . Is he interested in what mom is doing . Jessica somewhat. He is mainly interested in dungeons dragons. Brian we have one more clip. This is something we have not talked about. When this book came out we didnt talk about it. With the little time we have remaining, get your point of view. Jessica i decided to investigate my own as if he were one of the terrorists i study. You were raped when you were 15 . Jessica yes. With a knife. The police did not believe my sister and me. Nobody bothered to investigate. It turned out we found out 35 years later this was a serial rapist who raped at least 44 girls. 20 of them at harvard. Harvard university covered it up. Brian why did you write that book . Jessica i wanted to help people who have been severely traumatized. I realized that having been the victim of a very violent man that actually influenced my choice of career. But i had not spent my life in huddled in hiding away from the world, which is one of the ways a person might react. I will say that my publisher was and my editor, were not that keen about that book. But i got a lot of letters from people saying how much the book helped them. You know, that is not enough for the publisher. But i know the book really helped people. But it is also as if i have two different audiences. The people interested in that book and the people interested in the work i do on terrorism. I was a little worried. My unofficial editor talked me into writing the book about my own rape and rapist. I was afraid it might ruin my career. But the truth is, many of the people who are interested in my work on terrorism dont even know about that book. You are perhaps introducing them to it. Brian you were raped at age 15 and your sister was how old . Jessica 14. Brian where . Jessica in our home in a very thick town in concord, massachusetts. I man came in with a gun. Brian you took a swipe at harvard or not doing anything about it. You are still lecturing there. Does this book have any impact on harvard and is it still a problem . Jessica harvard has gotten me in some trouble with title 9. But one of the people i interviewed and that book, someone who was raped by the same man, was the daughter of the then dean of harvard law school. The fact that harvard covered up what was going on was very dangerous. Had harvard not covered it up this was a long time ago, they would not doing today. She would not have been a victim. Her sister saw someone casing the house. I think it is important for universities to be aware of the impact of covering up sexual violence. That it can lead to additional violence. Brian the name of that book is denial, a memoir of terror. Are you still glad you did it . Jessica i am, because i think it helps people. Not just victims of rape, but victims of trauma because part of what i tried to do was show what it was like to have posttraumatic stress disorder. Brian do you still have it . Jessica i guess i do. My analyst says i do. Most symptoms are gone, but i am able to use the capacity to dissociate in my work. I can use it productively. As many people do. Ptsd is not only a debilitating disorder, but can actually be used productively at work. It is not good for ones personal life. Brian what is the book you are working on that you interrupted to do this book . Jessica im working on a book on war criminals. Im interviewing war criminals in prison, which is much safer than going out and finding jihadis in the field. I know how to do that. I have honed an instrument. Brian war criminals based in the United States . Jessica no, were criminals indicted or mostly convicted for their participation in the war in bosnia. Brian what is your timing on the release of this book . Jessica im not sure. This is a very research intensive book. I would love to come talk to you about it when i finish it. Brian the name of the book we have been talking about is isis the state of terror. Our guest is coauthor jessica stern. We thank you very much. Jessica thank you so much. Announcer for free transcripts are give us your comments about this program, visit us at qanda. Org. Programs are also available at cspan podcast. [captions Copyright National cable satellite corp. 2015] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. Visit ncicap. Org] announcer what we are challenging is a telecommunication service