Before i ask a question, i want to show you a video. I mustve had six or seven biographies written about me. Exciting upnot that until i was president. Have these amazing experiences. I did not really accomplish all that much when i was in high school or in college. Folks think around and they are looking for stuff. Then they try to dramatize things that are kind of routine. There is a part of you that says why would you care about this, it is not that interesting. How right is he. Once you choose to run for president of the United States and succeed, your biography is a major part of american history. Had a mucha actually more interesting, much more richly varied earlier life then we have really to a large extent known up until now. People are aware he grew up in hawaii. But the really transformative period of baracks life in his mid20s came when he was living in chicago for the first time, 1985 to 1988, working as a Community Organizer on the far south side, his first immersion in an African American community is distinct from his, sort of, multiethnic international earlier life and also living in a very intense private relationship with a young woman in hyde park. And its during those years that really he comes to define himself both as a black man and as someone who aspires to a political career and is aiming for the presidency. Before we talk more about him and were going to talk a lot about him, where did you start in all this where did you grow up and where did you go to school . I grew up all along the east coast, outside of boston, outside of washington here, outside of new york city. Went to Wesleyan University in connecticut as an undergraduate. Then went south to Duke University for graduate school. My first book on the Voting Rights act of 1965 had begun as my undergraduate thesis. Was published by Yale University press when i was in grad school. My second book on the fbis pursuit of dr. King came out in 1981. Got a fair amount of attention. And that was the lead up to my big biography of dr. King, bearing the cross, that won a pulitzer in 1987. Why did it win a pulitzer . 1987. I said why . I think one way i would answer that is that the Pulitzer Board at that time had a number of people on it who were former civil rights journalists. Claude sitton being one. New york times, yes. So they were familiar with civil rights historiography, and if i can say so, what a significant step forward that book represented compared to earlier work. Back in 1986, civil rights historiography was just starting to gain strength. Its a whole lot more active a field now than it was when i started interviewing people in 1979. What did you have in the book that no one knew before it came out . I think with dr. King, the fundamental piece of this was how deep his faith grounding was. This was someone who had a selfsacrificial understanding of his calling. The number one thing for people to appreciate about dr. King is that he did not want to be a famous person, a celebrity. He felt drafted that this was a role that he was being asked to unwillingly take. And the great, great irony of all the fbi electronic surveillance of dr. King that was preserved and that i received under the freedom of information act is that you see in those wiretapped transcripts what a phenomenally humble and selfcritical person Martin Luther king jr. Was. A tremendously impressive person and more impressive thanks to j. Edgar hoover. How long did you work on that book . That book was a good seven years for me. Why did it take so long . At that time i was teaching almost fulltime. Where . First at the university of North Carolina at chapel hill, then at City University of new york. The technology of the 1980s meant that one was spending more time in front of the microfilm machine rather than accessing old publications digitally on the web. Brian lamb where else have you taught and where are you teaching now . Im presently a professor of law and history at the university of pittsburgh law school. Before we moved to pittsburgh, we were in cambridge, england for six years at the university of cambridge. A wonderful place. So ive had the privilege of being able to live in britain as well. I know you say in your book that you spent eight hours with Barrack Obama off the record. What can you tell us about those eight hours . Where did it happen . And what did you see up close . And when did it start that you talked, started talking to him . My first visit to see barack in person was april of 2016, probably an hour and 20 minutes or so in the oval office. After that, i offered to let him read the manuscript, typescript manuscript of the whole first 10 chapters of this book. And he did that over the course of the late summer last year. I then went back for threeplus hours on two different sundays last fall in october of 2016 and then i believe december 4th, 2016 after the election. And barack sat there with the markedup typescript and we, sort of, went through it chapter by chapter. So should i assume that he did not read the epilogue . Correct. And why did you not show him the epilogue . The epilogue was still being composed and edited down during the fall. You say that i dont have the exact quote in your book that he disagreed with what some of what he read about your book. What were the kind of things that he disagreed with, can you tell us . I think what i can say without violating these washington ground rules, which are ground rules that dont match up pretty well with academic history is that once someone has written their own account of how they remember their life, that when theyre presented with other witnesses, multiple, multiple witnesses whose memories significantly differ, someone whos already written their version remains very firmly attached to their version. So why did he want it off the record . We did not record it. Im not sure i could guess beyond that. What did you learn though, by being able to sit across from him and talk about it . I think he is very deeply attached to the version of his life that he put forward in dreams from my father. Now, thats a book that stops in 1988, when hes leaving chicago before he goes to law school. My book, only the first four chapters overlap with dreams from my father because i go all the way through harvard through all his years in illinois politics and his Senate Campaign u. S. Senate campaign in 2004. So, we spent a disproportionate amount of our time together focused on those years from his early life, his parents up through 1988. Why did he see you in the first place . How did you get an introduction . And why did he say yes . My conduit to the president whom i was first introduced to has been bob bauer former white House Counsel who has been Barack Obamas personal attorney since the beginning of the president ial campaign back in 2007 coming forward. So, mr. Bauer is someone with whom i interacted very regularly starting in the summer of 2013. His wife is anita dunn . Exactly. And thats exactly how this came to pass, because anita dunn was one of the two primary figures running the 2004 Senate Campaign of one of baracks democratic opponents in illinois, blair hull. And i had gone to see ms. Dunn to talk with her about the Hull Campaign not really appreciating that her husband was one of the people closest to president obama. Have you talked to either bob bauer or anita dunn about this book since its come out . No. I received my first copy of the book on a saturday and we had arranged for two copies to be delivered to bob bauer, i believe on that following tuesday, so that he could pass those two finished books along to president obama and president obamas press shop. Again, that was just my sense of what good manners are even when you still have remaining disagreements. Im going to make an attempt and hold it up so the camera can see how big this book is. I dont think in the 20 years this program has been on the air that weve come even close to a book this size. Why did you want a 1,500page book or almost better, why would a publisher want a 1,500page book selling for 45 retail . My very purposeful intent with this book has been to produce a book of record that folks will still be using and relying upon 25, 35 years from now. I began reading about barack in early 2008 when he won the Iowa Caucuses and sort of burst on to the political scene as a serious president ial contender. And all throughout 2008, i was disappointed by the quality and the depth of journalism about his earlier life. I thought that the Mainstream Media was simply being insufficiently curious about him. And on the other hand, we simultaneously had all of these wacky oppositional actions out there regarding where was he born, was he really muslim . And so, i came to this really with a professional belief that someone of my background and experience should really tackle this and it ended up being nine full years, and do the best most thorough job i could as an experienced scholarly historian. And now nine years later its over 1,000 interviews. And thats counting people one by one, no one counts four times just because i spoke to them four times. You say in the book that you interviewed yourself, not through a researcher, every one of the thousand people. Yes. How did you do that . And how much of it was recorded and what did you do with the recordings if you have any . Sure. Almost all of it is recorded. Its probably about 50 percent in person, 50 percent by phone. I probably have spoken with 140 or so people who were at Harvard Law School with barack from 1988 to 1991, and probably a 110 or so of his former law students at the university of chicago. Barack taught law classes at the u of c law school for a decade. Its a very important part of his life that people dont appreciate. So, a lot of the harvard classmates and u of c students i spoke to by phone, but with virtually all of the really serious major characters in the book, i tried to go and see people in person because you simply have a much richer interaction with people when you meet them facetoface. And maybe most importantly of all, when you make the effort to go see people in person, they make the effort to pull out old letters and documents that theyve hung onto. One of the great strengths of this book stems from the fact that all throughout the 1980s, barack obama was quite a letter writer. And there are many people who have, still have long handwritten letters from barack. In addition, barack and his best friend during law school rob fisher coauthored a 240, 250page unpublished book manuscript that rob and his mother held onto. And its a fascinating document. Half of it is about race and racial policy, and the stance that barack and rob taken that manuscript about civil rights process and civil rights policy is a very significant window looking forward into baracks political life. How would you describe your own politics . Im a pro forma Bernie Sanders donor. In years past, when Michael Harrington was still alive, i was a very active member of democratic socialists of america. In the context of chicago politics, but i realized not everyone will know the names, i made up somewhat more serious contribution jesus chuy garcia, a progressive challenger to mayor rahm emanuel. Did you vote either time for barack obama . Yes. Both times. I was england the first time, still living in england. Rob fisher, i know that ive heard you say this out loud is an important part of this book. Tell us more about who he is. And by the way, is he white or African American . Rob is white. Hes originally from southern maryland, tobacco farm country. Rob is a little bit older than barack. Had a phd in economics from duke. Had taught economics at Holy Cross College in worcester, massachusetts before starting law school at the exact same time as barack. They meet on like day one at harvard. And scores and scores of their classmates whom ive spoken to without exception described barack and rob as the two brightest people in that Harvard Law School class of 1991. They had an amazingly intense intellectual friendship across those three years, taking almost all of their courses together, in the third year, writing this long book manuscript together as part of a seminar paper process for something taught by professor martha minow, later dean of Harvard Law School. Thats newton minows daughter . Exactly, exactly, brian. And then when barack starts working on the manuscript that became dreams from my father in 1995, it was rob who was baracks primary sort of editorial helper, critic in reading and marking up that manuscript. By the way, you have 270 pages of source notes in the back, tiny little type. Yes. Did you get help doing that . Myself. I did all that myself. No, i had two wonderful young women, alex lerner, now a princeton history phd. Alison lefkovitz, a young history professor at rutgersnewark. They did a lot of my newspapers on microfilm and library work form me in chicago back the first two years of this book. But in terms of all of the notes taking and speaking with people and putting together footnotes, thats all 100 percent dave garrow. Want to run to you a clip of another historian who is an outsider looking in. It looks like youre somewhat quarreling with this gentleman as way to set it up so you can talk about the women in Barack Obamas life. Here is David Maraniss on his book, barack obama. In president obamas memoir dreams from my father, theres a very provocative a couple of pages where he says, i was involved with a girl in new york and she was white. And from the moment that he sort of burst that to the political scene, every political reporter in the world wanted to find out who this woman was. First, we found out someone had a letter that said, barack broke up with genevieve. That was our first hint, so we had a first name. Then over the course of many, many months, putting all of this into the computer in variations, founa wedding announcement in new york that eventually took me to a name that i checked in the records in cnecticut and found another name and eventually found Genevieve Cook and she struck up a conversation with me over the course of man many weeks. At one point she wrote to me an email that ill never forget, saying, dear david, ive been reading about how you wrote your book on vietnam and i saw what how important it was for you to have contemporaneous documents. By the way, i kept a diary. So, i got her diary. Did you see the diary . Oh yes. Myself and my wife actually made up a long trip to visit genevieve in person and actually stayed with her and her partner for three days. The journal is very extensive. But in addition, genevieve gave toe copies of all the letters and post cards that barack had written to her between 1984 and 1986. In the earlier versions of the genevieve story, folks have barack leaving her behind in new york in 1985. Actually, as the letters confirmed genevieves story, barack asked her to accompany him to chicago. She declined. But barack continued to write her throughout his time in chicago. In fact, maybe the single greatest, my favorite document in this whole book is a letter that barack wrote to genevieve about 10 days after he first arrives in chicago having left her in new york. And in that letter he describes his twoday drive from manhattan hyde park. And he had stopped for the night at a motel in western pennsylvania. By the wa its hyde park, chicago not new york. Yes. Hyde park, the chicago neighborhood, which became his home base. And in this twoday drive, he stopped for the night at a motel just bore the pennsylvania ohio state line and had a very memorable conversation with the white motel owner. Now, this is a cversation that barack himself in subsuent years in commencement speeches in 2006 would go back and recount how memorable this challenging exchange with the motel owner was. David garrow well, thanks to the letter that genevieve had save from like 1985, there is the name of the motel. At pitt law school, i had a wonderful law librarian, marc silverman. And so i said to marc, here is this motel, 1985. And marc said, ok. So, i get on the web, start looked in the Pennsylvania StateProperty Ownership records and came back to me and said that in 1985 this motel was owned by a man named robert ilia. Left two phone messages. Ffent numbers, one is across e border in eastern ohio. Day, day and a half later, my phone ris, david, this is bob ilia. And ive had several greaphone conversations with mr. Ilia back then. And his manner on the phone with me matched up just pluperfectly with the description that barack recounted of him ihis 1985 letter and in the descriptions hes remembered in more recent years. So finding bob ilia, the mel owner, thanks to my law library and is something that was received very favorably here in washington last year. Let me as i was preparing for this 1,500page book, people knew i was reading it and they came up one day and said, have you seen this . I got to get this out of the way now. This is a tweetrom david raniss. I know youveeen this. Well put it up on the screen. Will say this only once, david garrow, author of new obama bio, was vile, undercutting, ignoble coetitor unlike any ive encountered. Ats that about . I do not know. You met David Maraniss. No, he says encountered. Ive never met or spoken with David Maraniss. Zero, no interaction whaoever. To me this is a, sort of, trumplike people ttg angry on twitter at someone ey dont know. There are two paragraphs in this book that comment on David Maraniss. One where im quoting each of baracks three previous girlfriends alex mcnear, then genevieve, then sheila jager about their experiences with David Maraniss contacting them. And then theres a second paragraph where i quote the new york review of books and Nicholas Alamain in the new republic commentin on saying they werent that impressed by David Maranisss book. Yes. And thas the sum total of my personal overlap via two paragraphs with him. Let me show you something and you know this fromhepilogue. And i want to put on the screen a picture of the book. And then you say, this is in the epilogue, but it was essential to appreciate while the crucible of selfcreation had produced an ironclad will, the vessel, i assume meaning barack obama, was hollow at its core. Exactly. That is the final sentence of this 1,460page overall book. What do you mean by that . The barack obama whom we saw as president was a very fferent peon. The person we see today in 2017 giving 400,000 speeches, hanging out with billionaires and hollywood celebrities is a radically different person than whom barack was from the 1980s up through 2004. All of his life in illinois with his wife, his daughters, during the 1990s uthrough his election to the u. S. Senate, theyre leading a very modest finciallchallenging middle class life. Barack as an illinois legislator is a veroutspoken progressive, very tough critic of the patriot act, of the u. S. Intelligence community, a very tough voice calling for singlepayer universal healthcare covere and someone who did a superb job in springfield in the state legislature activelyeaching across the aisle to deal productively with very conservative replicans. State republican policians, more conservative than a Mitch Mcconnell or paul ryan. So the barack who was so successful in illinois in a republicancontrolled legislative situation for most of his time and who was a very outspoken progressive voice, thats not the man who we ended up having as president. So when was he e most hollow . I think what most surprised me was the extent of his transformation with regard to the Intelligence Community. That someone who h been so critical of the patriot act starng right in 2001 after 9 11 ended up instead as both a champion of the Intelligence Community and someone who again and again,s s been very widely reported in ourop newspapers, authorized mor investigations and prosecutions of journalts than any president inmerican history. That was not who barack obama was prior to the presidency. You mentioned what has happened to president oba since he left office, what impact has that had on you . Even during the presidency i was deeply puzzled by his the extent of his social interaction with hollywood celebrities. You dont see anything. You dont see anything in baracks life up through 2004 where hes aspiring to hang out with musicians or movie stars, nor is there any evidence of him seeking great personal wealth. Even the New York Times s criticized him pretty outspokenly for now going this routof 400,000 per appearance speeches. I find this very hard toquare with who he s up through 2004. Would you turn it down if somebody offered y 0,0 to speak . Yes, wod. Why . I have very purposely never signed up with commercial lecture agencies as most i thi prominent historical authors d because to me thats a contradiction of who i believe am given my absorption of the teachingf Martin Luther king, jr. So you liked Martin Luther king . Oh, dr. King is the formative influence in my life and im deeply grateful for my immersion in h teachings and his thought and i try to have that inform the way i lead my life every day. I want to put on the screen three pictures of three women, the general overalquestion and you can see this on the screen. Alex mcnear in 1981, thats a picture of her with a class, classmates. Genevieve cook, 1984 to 1985 and Sheila Miyoshi jager, 19 to 1988. Just to watch this for a little bit, but id ask you overall what of the impact of women on his life including his grandmother, his mother and his wifemichelle . I believe one of the most striking things with baracks own memoir, dreams from my father, is the almost complete absence of women from that book. Barack himself even back in the 1990s spoke with regret about how he pretty much left his mother out of that book. In the book, there is one composite girlfriend, an admixture of some alex, some genevieve, some sheila, but these were all very important relationships in his life. The genevieve relationship and especially the sheila jager relationship were defining, transformative relationships. Yet in his own telling of his life story, they are 99. 8 percent absent. Genevieve, like barack, was someone from a very Rich International background. Her father was an australian diplomat, a government minister. Her mother was a very prominent arts figure who with genevieves stepfather led in indonesia. Genevieve went to swarthmore college, wrote a very erudite undergraduate thesis about young people who came from nowhere whose homes were the world. So the overlap between baracks life, hawaii, indonesia, no father in the picture, his mother traveling the world, the overlap between barack and genevieves lives is very string. Sheila, half dutch, half japanese on the paternal dutch side of her family, her grandparents are honored in yad vashem, the Israeli Holocaust memorial, for helping protect jews in the netherlands during the world war ii. Sheila likewise had lived in paris for a time, written a very erudite undergraduate thesis. These were all very impressive young ladies. It turns out that sheila jager appeared here and we had no knowledge whatsoever that she ever was associated with barack obama doing a book. I just want folks to be able to see her and hear her. This is back in 2013 and well just run 15 seconds of her talking and then well come back and ask you more about her. Cold war in asia was sort of ming to an end, but interestingly, the fight bween north ansouth korea was actually heating up. At this point, this is the beginning of south koreas rise in economic power. When did yofirst discover who she was . And had she ever talked to anybody else . In 2009, once barack is already president of the United States, it was already in the Public Record where barack had lived in hyde park, chico during those years and it was in the Public Record that there had been some girlfriend. So i asked alex lerner, my first u of c research assistant, to go to the Regenstein Library at the u of c and pull the student directories for 1986, 87, 88. University of chicago . Yes. And see who else lived at the same address on south harper avenue as barack. And so she came back to me with sheila jagers name and also the ve nice couple who lived upstairs who are now at North Carolina state. And so i first emailed sheila when i was living britain in augustf 2009. She had never before acknowledged her relationship with barack. And she was extremy welcoming and i think its fair to say happy to be discovered by me, an academic historian, ther than say the national enquirer. But David Maraniss book had alex mcnear and Genevieve Cook in it but not sheila jager. Correct. And he talked to her and then she not want her name out and what has been the impact of you in some respects outing her with this close relationship with him . And tell us about the marriage proposal. My understanding from a number of fellow graduate students who were also in anthropology with sheila during those years, theres also another sheila who also recounted to me how she had been contacted by mr. Maraniss. My undstanding from sheila jager is that she did not return any call or message fr David Maraniss. So i was left with the impression that people had been told that there was a girlfriend named sheila, but they werent certain for sure which sheila. Im very happy that it took me until this point in time to finish this book in the way that i wanted to finish it, so that the public identification of sheila jagers decisive importance in Barack Obamas life took place only after barack had left the presidency, because i believe if sheila had been publicly identified in 2008 or 2012, i think the degree of paparazzi harassment she would have received, harassment that alex mcnear recounted to me experiencing when the maraniss book came out in 2012. So its very much my hope that now postpresidency, sheila jager has received a whole lot less paparazzi attention that would have been the case. Well go back to the estion about i thini remember you saying that he propod to her twice. Oh, yes. And was involved with her after he started dating michelle. Yes. Barack and sheila begin living together in the early fall of 1986 after having been introduced three or four months earlier by one of sheilas fellow graduate students, a pakistani academic, very prominent American Academic now who was friends with baracks own network of pakistani friends that dated back to his own time in college. Its worth pausing briefly here to stress that all up through baracks time in college during the 1980s, his real Close Friends were sort of neither ite nor black. They were mainly International South Asian young men, pakistani or indian ethnicity from successful families. And, again, this is part of baracks really fundamental international grounding as a young man. But barack and sheila start living together in the fall of 1988 and its a very intense relationship. Sheila takes barack home that christmas to meet her parents in Northern California and they are already talking about marriage then. Both of sheilas parents are now deceased, but her fathers best, closest friend was purposely invited up that week to meet the prospective soninlaw. Sheila pointed me towards him, he lives in nevada, so that i could speak with him to see whether his recollection of what happened matched up with sheilas. Well, it did 100 percent. So its not simply that we have a former girlfriend saying barack repeatedly asked me to marry him, we have a completely independent witness, the family friend saying, yes, i was there for this. Barack and her father argued. Sheilas parents didnt think a Community Organizer was the best potential husband material. And so nothi comes of the marriage issue right then, but barack and sheila continue to live with each other for another 18 month in chicago. By that time barack has made the decision to pursue a political career, to go to law school. He asks sheila to join him at harvard and sheila says no because she wants to get on with her fieldwork, her own professional career as a professional scholar. But she does go to cambridge, massachusetts and very privately, quietly live with barack for a month or more even then. And they remain involved with each other until early 1991. So when was the moment that sheila jager learned about his destiny . Sheila dates to early 1987, the spring of 1987 and her testimony on this is very powerful. Now, with some of his Community Organizing buddies in 1987, 88, barack would tk about being interested in a political career, becoming mayor of chicago, because Harold Washington, the first black mayor of chicago who ended up dying very suddenly, tragically in the fall of 87, washington was a very formative political presence for barack even though they barely met each other. Can i ask you to stopor a second and run a clip of Harold Washington for those who dont remember him when he was the mayor of chicago, and then well come right back to this . We dont want anything we dont earn. Were not taking anybody from anything. We just want a fair share for all the people in this city. Now, i happen to be talking to a black audience, but you understand ive got to be fair to everybody and i will be fair to everybody but im going to insist that for the first time the city is fair to you. You were talking about barack obama admired him, thought he might want to be mayor. But the original question was the destiny question when sheila jager learned this. Right. By 1987, a year and a half to being a Community Organizer, barack has understandably concluded that organizing Community Groups is not going to produce transformational change. He concludes that he needs to pursue a political career. Now, with his male friends hes saying, maybe i could become mayor. But with sheila d with a second woman, Community Activist woman to whom he was very close, mary ellen montes, lena, neither she did not know sheila, sheila did not know her. Did they date, by the way . Thewere very Close Friends i think is the correct way to describe it. But, again, its very powerful that sheilas memories of barack saying to her that i feel i have a destiny and that im thinking i could one day become president of the United States. Mary ellen montes memories of what barack is saying to her in 1987, 1988 match up identically with sheila jagers. This is very profoundly impoant to me as a historian as someone whos been interviewing people for close to 40 years, because human memory is so imperfect that you never wanto rely in a significant way on simply one persons story, one persons version. So to have two iependent witnesses, both ve cse to barack at that time, saying almost identical words what he was telling them, thato is profoundly significant. Over the nine years that you spent living with barack obama, not really but i mean living with this my wife might put it that way. Was there a point where you began to change your view of m . And what was it if there was one . The barack obama from the Community Organizing years up through 2002 or so is a person i tremendous like. Its worth taking a quick step back here to say that everyone who knew barack in high school, in college, in his first few jobs, before he goes to chicago in 1985 thought he was a completely unremarkable person. Thats the rack obama of 1985. Three years later after the three years in chicago on the far south side living th sheila, day one when barack arrives at Harvard Law School in 1988 every classmate who meets him without exception thinks that this is someone who will be a public star. So to my mind, the humungous contrast between what people who knew barack before chicago thought of him and what people at harvard see in 1988, that is what really documents the selftransformation he experienced between 1985 and 1988. Now, the barack from the community years, barack was a student and then editor of the law view at harvard, a young lawyer, a law teacher, a state legislator in illinois across the 19s, think he is a wonderful, comllg, impressive political figure. One of my favorite moments comes on the floor of the Illinois State senate where everythg was transcribed word for word, transcripts are on the web. It takes some work to go through them, but anybody can find everything. And barack is recounting how at their condominium in hyde park hes not allowed to smoke indoors. Michelle sends him out to the back porch. And hes out there one Early Morning after midnight smoking a cigar he says, and he watches an immigrant family coming down the alley collecting bottles and cans with their child or ildren in tow. And hes telling this spontaneouslon the senate floor, and the impact that it has on him of the challenges that this family is facing. Thats a politician whom i thoughwainedibly impressive. This is the senate floor in illinois. Illinois, yes. In the aftermath of losing the year 2000 congressional challenge. Bobby rush. Yes, incumbent democratic representative bobby rush, and this would have been the Harold Washington career trajectory, to go from being a state legislator to then being a congressman. But in the wake of that loss, barack, in my judgment, makes the choice that he has to figure victorious is essential. And you start seeing a series of changes. Ill give you two quick examples. When barack first announces to run for the state senate back in the mid1990s, he, by hand, fills out a questionnaire saying i support gay marriage. I think its relatively wellknown that thats something he backed off of very quickly, very significantly. Similarly, early on, hes a very outspoken proponent of gun control. Theres some significant backing away from that, too. So in the very detailed chapter recounting his senate candidacy, 2002 to 2004, i think what this book presents in quite extensively documented detail is someone who is changing themselves in order to be a successful statewide politician. Let me then ask you about the cover of the book. Should i assume that this cover photo wasnt just haphazard, that theres a reason for this particular view of barack obama . I think thats correct, but thats more the doing of my editors at harpercollins. So what were they after in presenting this kind of a picture . This picture dates from the spring of 1990, right after barack is elected president of the harvard law review. First black to ever have that honor. Exactly, very important. And i believe the photographers name is john goodman. I believe im stating this correctly and it was published in vanity fair. But the initiative for selecting this photo quite frankly came from within harpercollins, not from me. What about the title, rising star . That is mine and i was very firm in choosing that. And im simply playing off of the dozens of instances. During 2004 when barack first springs to National Prominence giving the very wellknown keynote address at the 2004 Democratic National convention, that paper after paper, magazine after magazine, tv commentator after tv commentator, all call him a rising star in 2004. So if this book had come out in 2008 as he was running, do you think it would have had any different kind of an impact on his possibility of being elected . Yes, sir. I think very much so. And why . I think, first and foremost that the unpublished book manuscript that barack and rob fischer wrote during their third year of law school at harvard. The chapter of that thats about race and racial politics and racial policy, theres nothing in there that to me as a progressive democrat who knows race finds surprising. But theres a lot of material in there that could have been used in republican attack ads to present barack as a dangerous figure. I think that manuscript, if people are old enough like you and i are to remember lani guinier, wellknown africanamerican law professor nominated in 1993 by president clinton for a Justice Department post and her nomination was abandoned because of critical reactions to some footnotes she had in law review articles. Thats what i think could have happened with that book manuscript. You mentioned gay marriage and his position on that. You write a lot, not a lot, but i mean you write enough about lawrence goldyn. Here is lawrence goldyn, june 30th, 2014 with barack obama. You dont see him. You see barack obama talking about him. I want to ask you the impact of this. Lawrence was not shy. And i took a class from him and because he was one of the younger professors, we became really good friends. But also he was the first openly gay person that i knew who was unapologetic, who stood his ground. If somebody gave him guff, hed give him guff right back. He helped shape how i think about so many of these issues and those sort of quiet heroes that sometimes dont get acknowledged. Some journalists have picked out of your book that moment where he wrote a letter saying that he was thinking of the gay life, but explain all this and lawrence goldyn. Lawrence goldyn was a Young Political science professor at occidental college. Barack was at occidental for his first two years of college, 1979 to 81, then transferred to Columbia University in new york. And just as barack says in that clip, and as he said years earlier in interviews with gay journalists back in 2004, 2008, goldyn had a big impact on him. And being an openly proud and out gay person, gay professor, gay academic in 1980, people who are much younger may not fully fathom how pathbreaking that was at that point in time. So theres no question that goldyn had a Significant Impact on barack, as did a number of other professors. There is one passage in a letter to alex mcnear, baracks first girlfriend, where he makes reference to his thoughts about gayness. Now, baracks letters to alex are i think verbose or prolix would not be unkind adjectives to use. Alex has never wanted the precise language printed, so i am relying on her description of that passage to me. We dont have the exact wording. This is something that i flagged and described to barack. He was 110 percent untroubled by it. I think i can say that without violating the offtherecord thing. So for a few tabloid people to try to make something of that is simply tabloidization. Were out of time for the first hour and theres so much more to talk about. Were going to have a second hour. But for those that may have joined us late, david garrow lives in pittsburgh, teaches the university of pittsburgh, teaching law students . Yes. And the name of this book as we just said is rising star the making of barack obama. David j. Garrow, thank you very much for joining us. Thank you, brian. [captions Copyright National cable satellite corp. 2017] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. Visit ncicap. Org] refreeze transcripts visit us at q and beto orourke. Q and a programs are also available at cspan podcast. Cspan, where history unfolds daily. In 1970 nine, cspan was created as a Public Service by americas Cable Television companies. It is brought to you today by your cable or satellite provider. Gop efforts continue to come up with legislation to replace the Affordable Care act and democrat are letting to hold the senate floor until at least the night to protest the fact that seven republicans have not held have led coverage of the senate throughout the night on cspan two. The Court Unanimously decided that a North Carolina state law violated rejected speech under the first amendment. The case was argued before the four in february. Heres the oral argument