Transcripts For CSPAN Presidential Candidates Debate 20161009

Clinton has arrived in st. Louis in tonights debate Washington University. Here we see her getting off of her plane about an hour and a half ago. And donald trump has also made his way to st. Louis. Heres a tweet from Kellyanne Conway showing mr. Trump on his plane, alongside Reince Priebus and former new york city mayor, rudy giuliani. Now, lets take a look at the scene outside of the debate hall at Washington University in st. Louis. It will give you a sense of whats going on is we prepare for tonights debate. It gets underway at 9 00 eastern. Our coverage starts at 7 30 p. M. Here on cspan. Look now ate a another president ial debate. This time, 2008 with democratic senator barack obama facing republican senator john mccain at Hofstra University in hempstead, new york. This is an hour and a half. Schieffer good evening. And welcome to the third and last president ial debate of 2008, sponsored by the commission on president ial debates. Im Bob Schieffer of cbs news. The rules tonight are simple. The subject is domestic policy. I will divide the next hourandahalf into nineminute segments. I will ask a question at the beginning of each segment. Each candidate will then have two minutes to respond, and then well have a discussion. Ill encourage them to ask followup questions of each other. If they do not, i will. The audience behind me has promised to be quiet, except at this moment, when we welcome barack obama and john mccain. [applause] gentlemen, welcome. By now, weve heard all the talking points, so lets try to tell the people tonight some things that they they havent heard. Lets get to it. Another very bad day on wall street, as both of you know. Both of you proposed new plans this week to address the economic crisis. Senator mccain, you proposed a 52 billion plan that includes new tax cuts on Capital Gains, tax breaks for seniors, writeoffs for stock losses, among other things. Senator obama, you proposed 60 billion in tax cuts for middle income and lowerincome people, more tax breaks to create jobs, new spending for public works projects to create jobs. I will ask both of you why is your plan better than his . Senator mccain, you go first. Mccain well, let let me say, bob, thank you. And thanks to hofstra. And, by the way, our beloved nancy reagan is in the hospital tonight, so our thoughts and prayers are going with you. Its good to see you again, senator obama. Americans are hurting right now, and theyre angry. Theyre hurting, and theyre angry. Theyre innocent victims of greed and excess on wall street and as well as washington, d. C. And theyre angry, and they have every reason to be angry. And they want this country to go in a new direction. And there are elements of my proposal that you just outlined which i wont repeat. But we also have to have a shortterm fix, in my view, and long term fixes. Let me just talk to you about one of the shortterm fixes. The catalyst for this housing crisis was the fannie and freddie mae that caused subprime lending situation that now caused the Housing Market in america to collapse. I am convinced that, until we reverse this continued decline in Home Ownership and put a floor under it, and so that people have not only the hope and belief they can stay in their homes and realize the American Dream, but that value will come up. Now, we have allocated 750 billion. Lets take 300 of that billion and go in and buy those home loan mortgages and negotiate with those people in their homes, 11 million homes or more, so that they can afford to pay the mortgage, stay in their home. Now, i know the criticism of this. Mccain well, what about the citizen that stayed in their homes . That paid their mortgage payments . It doesnt help that person in their home if the next door neighbors house is abandoned. And so weve got to reverse this. We ought to put the homeowners first. And i am disappointed that secretary paulson and others have not made that their first priority. Schieffer all right. Senator obama . Obama well, first of all, i want to thank Hofstra University and the people of new york for hosting us tonight and its wonderful to join senator mccain again, and thank you, bob. I think everybody understands at this point that we are experiencing the worst financial crisis since the great depression. And the Financial Rescue plan that senator mccain and i supported is an important first step. And i pushed for some Core Principles making sure that taxpayer can get their money back if theyre putting money up. Making sure that ceos are not enriching themselves through this process. And i think that its going to take some time to work itself out. But what we havent yet seen is a rescue package for the middle class. Because the fundamentals of the economy were weak even before this latest crisis. So ive proposed four specific things that i think can help. Number one, lets focus on jobs. I want to end the tax breaks for companies that are shipping jobs overseas and provide a tax credit for every company thats creating a job right here in america. Number two, lets help families right away by providing them a tax cut a middleclass tax cut for people making less than 200,000, and lets allow them to access their ira accounts without penalty if theyre experiencing a crisis. Now senator mccain and i agree with your idea that weve got to help homeowners. Thats why we included in the financial package a proposal to get homeowners in a position where they can renegotiate their mortgages. I disagree with senator mccain in how to do it, because the way senator mccain has designed his plan, it could be a giveaway to banks if were buying full price for mortgages that now are worth a lot less. And we dont want to waste taxpayer money. And weve got to get the financial package working much quicker than it has been working. Last point i want to make, though. Weve got some longterm challenges in this economy that have to be dealt with. Weve got to fix our Energy Policy thats giving our wealth away. Weve got to fix our Health Care System and weve got to invest in our Education System for every young person to be able to learn. Schieffer all right. Would you like to ask him a question . Mccain no. I would like to mention that a couple days ago senator obama was out in ohio and he had an encounter with a guy whos a plumber, his name is joe wurzelbacher. Joe wants to buy the business that he has been in for all of these years, worked 10, 12 hours a day. And he wanted to buy the business but he looked at your tax plan and he saw that he was going to pay much higher taxes. You were going to put him in a higher tax bracket which was going to increase his taxes, which was going to cause him not to be able to employ people, which joe was trying to realize the American Dream. Now senator obama talks about the very, very rich. Joe, i want to tell you, ill not only help you buy that business that you worked your whole life for and be able and ill keep your taxes low and ill provide available and Affordable Health care for you and your employees. And i will not have i will not stand for a tax increase on Small Business income. Fifty percent of Small Business income taxes are paid by Small Businesses. Thats 16 million jobs in america. And what you want to do to joe the plumber and millions more like him is have their taxes increased and not be able to realize the American Dream of owning their own business. Schieffer is that what you want to do . Mccain thats what joe believes. Obama he has been watching ads of senator mccains. Let me tell you what im actually going to do. I think tax policy is a major difference between senator mccain and myself. And we both want to cut taxes, the difference is who we want to cut taxes for. Now, senator mccain, the centerpiece of his economic proposal is to provide 200 billion in additional tax breaks to some of the wealthiest corporations in america. Exxon mobil, and other Oil Companies, for example, would get an additional 4 billion in tax breaks. What ive said is i want to provide a tax cut for 95 percent of working americans, 95 percent. If you make more if you make less than a quarter Million Dollars a year, then you will not see your income tax go up, your Capital Gains tax go up, your payroll tax. Not one dime. And 95 percent of working families, 95 percent of you out there, will get a tax cut. In fact, independent studies have looked at our respective plans and have concluded that i provide three times the amount of tax relief to middleclass families than senator mccain does. Obama now, the conversation i had with joe the plumber, what i essentially said to him was, five years ago, when you werent in a position to buy your business, you needed a tax cut then. And what i want to do is to make sure that the plumber, the nurse, the firefighter, the teacher, the young entrepreneur who doesnt yet have money, i want to give them a tax break now. And that requires us to make some important choices. The last point ill make about Small Businesses. Not only do 98 percent of Small Businesses make less than 250,000, but i also want to give them additional tax breaks, because they are the drivers of the economy. They produce the most jobs. Mccain you know, when senator obama ended up his conversation with joe the plumber we need to spread the wealth around. In other words, were going to take joes money, give it to senator obama, and let him spread the wealth around. I want joe the plumber to spread that wealth around. You told him you wanted to spread the wealth around. The whole premise behind senator obamas plans are class warfare, lets spread the wealth around. I want Small Businesses and by the way, the Small Businesses that were talking about would receive an increase in their taxes right now. Who why would you want to increase anybodys taxes right now . Why would you want to do that, anyone, anyone in america, when we have such a tough time, when these Small Business people, like joe the plumber, are going to create jobs, unless you take that money from him and spread the wealth around. Im not going to obama ok. Can i mccain were not going to do that in my administration. Obama if i can answer the question. Number one, i want to cut taxes for 95 percent of americans. Now, it is true that my friend and supporter, Warren Buffett, for example, could afford to pay a little more in taxes in order mccain were talking about joe the plumber. Obama in order to give in order to give additional tax cuts to joe the plumber before he was at the point where he could make 250,000. Then exxon mobil, which made 12 billion, record profits, over the last several quarters, they can afford to pay a little more so that ordinary families who are hurting out there theyre trying to figure out how theyre going to afford food, how theyre going to save for their kids College Education, they need a break. So, look, nobody likes taxes. I would prefer that none of us had to pay taxes, including myself. But ultimately, weve got to pay for the Core Investments that make this economy strong and somebodys got to do it. Mccain nobody likes taxes. Lets not raise anybodys taxes. Ok . Obama well, i dont mind paying a little more. Mccain the fact is that businesses in America Today are paying the second highest tax rate of anywhere in the world. Our tax rate for business in america is 35 percent. Ireland, its 11 percent. Where are Companies Going to go where they can create jobs and where they can do best in business . We need to cut the business tax rate in america. We need to encourage business. Now, of all times in america, we need to cut peoples taxes. We need to encourage business, create jobs, not spread the wealth around. Schieffer all right. Lets go to another topic. Its related. So if you have other things you want to say, you can get back to that. This question goes to you first, senator obama. We found out yesterday that this years deficit will reach an astounding record high 455 billion. Some experts say it could go to 1 trillion next year. Both of you have said you want to reduce the deficit, but the Nonpartisan Committee for a responsible federal budget ran the numbers on both of your proposals and they say the cost of your proposals, even with the savings you claim can be made, each will add more than 200 billion to the deficit. Arent you both ignoring reality . Wont some of the programs you are proposing have to be trimmed, postponed, even eliminated . Give us some specifics on what youre going to cut back. Senator obama . Obama well, first of all, i think its important for the American Public to understand that the 750 billion rescue package, if its structured properly, and, as president , i will make sure its structured properly, means that ultimately taxpayers get their money back, and thats important to understand. But there is no doubt that weve been living beyond our means and were going to have to make some adjustments. Now, what ive done throughout this campaign is to propose a net spending cut. I havent made a promise about schieffer but youre going to have to cut some of these programs, certainly. Obama absolutely. So let me get to that. What i want to emphasize, though, is that i have been a strong proponent of payas yougo. Every dollar that ive proposed, ive proposed an additional cut so that it matches. And some of the cuts, just to give you an example, we spend 15 billion a year on subsidies to Insurance Companies. It doesnt under the medicare plan it doesnt help seniors get any better. Its not improving our Health Care System. Its just a giveaway. We need to eliminate a whole host of programs that dont work. And i want to go through the federal budget line by line, page by page, programs that dont work, we should cut. Programs that we need, we should make them work better. Now, what is true is that senator mccain and i have a difference in terms of the need to invest in america and the American People. I mentioned health care earlier. If we make investments now so that people have coverage, that we are preventing diseases, that will save on medicare and medicaid in the future. If we invest in a serious Energy Policy, that will save in the amount of money were borrowing from china to send to saudi arabia. If we invest now in our young people and their ability to go to college, that will allow them to drive this economy into the 21st century. But what is absolutely true is that, once we get through this economic crisis and some of the specific proposals to get us out of this slump, that were not going to be able to go back to our profligate ways. And were going to have to embrace a culture and an ethic of responsibility, all of us, corporations, the federal government, and individuals out there who may be living beyond their means. Schieffer times up. Senator . Mccain well, thank you, bob. I just want to get back to this Home Ownership. During the depression era, we had a thing called the Home Ownership loan corporation. And they went out and bought up these mortgages. And people were able to stay in their homes, and eventually the values of those homes went up, and they actually made money. And, by the way, this was a proposal made by senator clinton not too long ago. So, obviously, if we can start increasing home values, then there will be creation of wealth. Mr. Schieffer but what mccain but ok. All right. Schieffer the question was, what are you going to cut . Mccain energy well, first second of all, energy independence. We have to have Nuclear Power. We have to stop sending 700 billion a year to countries that dont like us very much. Its wind, tide, solar, natural gas, nuclear, offshore drilling, which senator obama has opposed. And the point is that we become Energy Independent and we will create millions of jobs millions of jobs in america. Ok, what what would i cut . I would have, first of all, acrosstheboard spending freeze, ok . Some people say thats a hatchet. Thats a hatchet, and then i would get out a scalpel, ok . Because weve got we have presided over the largest increase weve got to have a new direction for this country. We have presided over the largest increase in government since the great society. Government spending has gone completely out of control; 10 trillion dollar debt were giving to our kids, a halfatrillion dollars we owe china. I know how to save billions of dollars in defense spending. I know how to eliminate programs. Schieffer which ones . Mccain i have fought against well, one of them would be the marketing assistance program. Another one would be a number of subsidies for ethanol. I oppose subsidies for ethanol because i thought it distorted the market and created inflation senator obama supported those subsidies. I would eliminate the tariff on imported sugarcanebased ethanol from brazil. I know how to save billions. I saved the taxpayer 6. 8 billion by fighting a deal for a couple of years, as you might recall, that was a sweetheart deal between an aircraft manufacturer, dod, and people ended up in jail. But i would fight for a lineitem veto, and i would certainly veto every earmark porkbarrel bill. Senator obama has asked for nearly 1 billion in porkbarrel earmark projects schieffer times up. Mccain including 3 million for an overhead projector in a planetarium in his hometown. Thats not the way we cut well cut out all the pork. Schieffer times up. Obama well, look, i think that we do have a disagreement about an acrosstheboard spending freeze. It sounds good. Its proposed periodically. It doesnt happen. And, in fact, an acrosstheboard spending freeze is a hatchet, and we do need a scalpel, because there are some programs that dont work at all. There are some programs that are underfunded. And i want to make sure that we are focused on those programs that work. Now, senator mccain talks a lot about earmarks. Thats one of the centerpieces of his campaign. Earmarks account for 0. 5 percent of the total federal budget. Theres no doubt that the system needs reform and there are a lot of screwy things that we end up spending money on, and they need to be eliminated. But its not going to solve the problem. Now, the last thing i think we have to focus on is a little bit of history, just so that we understand what were doing going forward. When president bush came into office, we had a Budget Surplus and the National Debt was a little over 5 trillion. It has doubled over the last eight years. And we are now looking at a deficit of well over half a trillion dollars. So one of the things that i think we have to recognize is pursuing the same kinds of policies that we pursued over the last eight years is not going to bring down the deficit. And, frankly, senator mccain voted for four out of five of president bushs budgets. Weve got to take this in a new direction, thats what i propose as president. Schieffer do either of you think you can balance the budget in four years . You have said previously you thought you could, senator mccain. Mccain sure i do. And let me tell you schieffer you can still do that . Mccain yes. Senator obama, i am not president bush. If you wanted to run against president bush, you should have run four years ago. Im going to give a new direction to this economy in this country. Senator obama talks about voting for budgets. He voted twice for a budget resolution that increases the taxes on individuals making 42,000 a year. Of course, we can take a hatchet and a scalpel to this budget. Its completely out of control. The mayor of new york, mayor bloomberg, just imposed an across theboard spending freeze on new york city. Theyre doing it all over america because they have to. Because they have to balance their budgets. I will balance our budgets and i will get them and i will. Schieffer in four years . Mccain . Reduce this i can we can do it with this kind of job creation of energy independence. Now, look, americans are hurting tonight and theyre angry and i understand that, and they want a new direction. I can bring them in that direction by eliminating spending. Senator obama talks about the budgets i voted for. He voted for the last two budgets that had that 24 billion more in spending than the budget that the Bush Administration proposed. He voted for the energy bill that was full of goodies for the Oil Companies that i opposed. So the fact is, lets look at our records, senator obama. Lets look at it as graded by the National Taxpayers union and the citizens against government waste and the other watchdog organizations. I have fought against spending. I have fought against special interests. I have fought for reform. You have to tell me one time when you have stood up with the leaders of your party on one single major issue. Schieffer barack. Obama well, theres a lot of stuff that was put out there, so let me try to address it. First of all, in terms of standing up to the leaders of my party, the first major bill that i voted on in the senate was in support of tort reform, which wasnt very popular with trial lawyers, a major constituency in the democratic party. I support mccain an overwhelming vote. Obama i support Charter Schools and pay for performance for teachers. Doesnt make me popular with the teachers union. I support Clean Coal Technology. Doesnt make me popular with environmentalists. So ive got a history of reaching across the aisle. Now with respect to a couple of things senator mccain said, the notion that i voted for a tax increase for people making 42,000 a year has been disputed by everybody who has looked at this claim that senator mccain keeps on making. Even fox news disputes it, and that doesnt happen very often when it comes to accusations about me. So the fact of the matter is that if i occasionally have mistaken your policies for george bushs policies, its because on the core Economic Issues that matter to the American People, on tax policy, on Energy Policy, on spending priorities, you have been a vigorous supporter of president bush. Now, youve shown independence commendable independence, on some key issues like torture, for example, and i give you enormous credit for that. But when it comes to economic policies, essentially what youre proposing is eight more years of the same thing. And it hasnt worked. And i think the American People understand it hasnt worked. We need to move in a new direction. Mr. Schieffer all right mccain let me just say, bob. Schieffer ok. About 30 seconds. Mccain ok. But its very clear that i have disagreed with the Bush Administration. I have disagreed with leaders of my own party. Ive got the scars to prove it. Whether it be bringing Climate Change to the floor of the senate for the first time. Whether it be opposition to spending and earmarks, whether it be the issue of torture, whether it be the conduct of the war in iraq, which i vigorously opposed. Whether it be on fighting the pharmaceutical companies on medicare prescription drugs, importation. Whether it be fighting for an hmo patients bill of rights. Whether it be the establishment of the 9 11 commission. I have a long record of reform and fighting through on the floor of the United States senate. Schieffer all right. Mccain senator obama, your argument for standing up to the leadership of your party isnt very convincing. Schieffer all right. Were going to move to another question and the topic is leadership in this campaign. Both of you pledged to take the high road in this campaign yet it has turned very nasty. Schieffer senator obama, your campaign has used words like erratic, out of touch, lie, angry, losing his bearings to describe senator mccain. Senator mccain, your commercials have included words like disrespectful, dangerous, dishonorable, he lied. Your running mate said he palled around with terrorists. Are each of you tonight willing to sit at this table and say to each others face what your campaigns and the people in your campaigns have said about each other . And, senator mccain, youre first. Mccain well, this has been a tough campaign. Its been a very tough campaign. And i know from my experience in many campaigns that, if senator obama had asked responded to my urgent request to sit down, and do town Hall Meetings, and come before the American People, we could have done at least 10 of them by now. When senator obama was first asked, he said, any place, any time, the way Barry Goldwater and jack kennedy agreed to do, before the intervention of the tragedy at dallas. So i think the tone of this campaign could have been very different. And the fact is, its gotten pretty tough. And i regret some of the negative aspects of both campaigns. But the fact is that it has taken many turns which i think are unacceptable. One of them happened just the other day, when a man i admire and respect ive written about him congressman john lewis, an american hero, made allegations that sarah palin and i were somehow associated with the worst chapter in american history, segregation, deaths of children in church bombings, george wallace. That, to me, was so hurtful. And, senator obama, you didnt repudiate those remarks. Every time theres been an outofbounds remark made by a republican, no matter where they are, i have repudiated them. I hope that senator obama will repudiate those remarks that were made by congressman john lewis, very unfair and totally inappropriate. So i want to tell you, we will run a truthful campaign. This is a tough campaign. And its a matter of fact that senator obama has spent more money on negative ads than any Political Campaign in history. And i can prove it. And, senator obama, when he said and he signed a piece of paper that said he would take Public Financing for his campaign if i did that was back when he was a longshot candidate you didnt keep your word. And when you looked into the camera in a debate with senator clinton and said, i will sit down and negotiate with john mccain about Public Financing before i make a decision, you didnt tell the American People the truth because you didnt. And thats thats thats an unfortunate part. Now we have the highest spending by senator obamas campaign than any time since watergate. Schieffer times up. All right. Obama well, look, you know, i think that we expect president ial campaigns to be tough. I think that, if you look at the record and the impressions of the American People bob, your network just did a poll, showing that twothirds of the American People think that senator mccain is running a negative campaign versus onethird of mine. And 100 percent, john, of your ads 100 percent of them have been negative. Mccain its not true. Obama it absolutely is true. And, now, i think the American People are less interested in our hurt feelings during the course of the campaign than addressing the issues that matter to them so deeply. And there is nothing wrong with us having a vigorous debate like were having tonight about health care, about Energy Policy, about tax policy. Thats the stuff that campaigns should be made of. The notion, though, that because were not doing town Hall Meetings that justifies some of the ads that have been going up, not just from your own campaign directly, john, but 527s and other organizations that make some pretty tough accusations, well, i dont mind being attacked for the next three weeks. What the American People cant afford, though, is four more years of failed economic policies. And what they deserve over the next four weeks is that we talk about whats most pressing to them the economic crisis. Senator mccains own Campaign Said publicly last week that, if we keep on talking about the economic crisis, we lose, so we need to change the subject. And i would love to see the next three weeks devoted to talking about the economy, devoted to talking about health care, devoted to talking about energy, and figuring out how the American People can send their kids to college. And that is something that i would welcome. But it requires, i think, a recognition that politics as usual, as been practiced over the last several years, is not solving the big problems here in america. Mccain well, if youll turn on the television, as i i watched the Arizona Cardinals defeat the Dallas Cowboys on sunday. Obama congratulations. Mccain every other ad ever other ad was an attack ad on my Health Care Plan. And any objective observer has said its not true. Youre running ads right now that say that i oppose federal funding for stem cell research. I dont. Youre running ads that misportray completely my position on immigration. So the fact is that senator obama is spending unprecedented unprecedented in the history of american politics, going back to the beginning, amounts of money in negative attack ads on me. And of course, ive been talking about the economy. Of course, ive talked to people like joe the plumber and tell him that im not going to spread his wealth around. Im going to let him keep his wealth. And of course, were talking about positive plan of action to restore this economy and restore jobs in america. Thats what my campaign is all about and thats what itll continue to be all about. But again, i did not hear a repudiation of congressman obama i mean, look, if we want to talk about congressman lewis, who is an american hero, he, unprompted by my campaign, without my campaigns awareness, made a statement that he was troubled with what he was hearing at some of the rallies that your running mate was holding, in which all the republican reports indicated were shouting, when my name came up, things like terrorist and kill him, and that youre running mate didnt mention, didnt stop, didnt say hold on a second, thats kind of out of line. And i think congressman lewis point was that we have to be careful about how we deal with our supporters. Now mccain youve got to read what he said obama let let let mccain youve got to read what he said. Obama let me let me complete schieffer go ahead. Obama my response. i do think that he inappropriately drew a comparison between what was happening there and what had happened during the civil rights movement, and we immediately put out a statement saying that we dont think that comparison is appropriate. And, in fact, afterwards, congressman lewis put out a similar statement, saying that he had probably gone over the line. The important point here is, though, the American People have become so cynical about our politics, because all they see is a tit fortat and backandforth. And what they want is the ability to just focus on some really big challenges that we face right now, and thats what i have been trying to focus on this entire campaign. Mccain i cannot obama we can have serious differences about our health care policy, for example, john, because we do have a difference on health care policy, but we mccain we do and i hope obama talking about it this evening. Mccain sure. Obama but when people suggest that i pal around with terrorists, then were not talking about issues. What were talking about mccain well, let me just say i would schieffer inaudible mccain let me just say categorically im proud of the people that come to our rallies. Whenever you get a large rally of 10,000, 15,000, 20,000 people, youre going to have some fringe peoples. You know that. And ive and weve always said that thats not appropriate. But to somehow say that group of young women who said military wives for mccain are somehow saying anything derogatory about you, but anything and those veterans that wear those hats that say world war ii, vietnam, korea, iraq, im not going to stand for people saying that the people that come to my rallies are anything but the most dedicated, patriotic men and women that are in this nation and theyre great citizens. And im not going to stand for somebody saying that because someone yelled something at a rally theres a lot of things that have been yelled at your rallies, senator obama, that im not happy about either. In fact, some tshirts that are very obama john, i mccain unacceptable. so the point is the point is that i have repudiated every time someones been out of line, whether theyve been part of my campaign or not, and i will continue to do that. But the fact is that we need to absolutely not stand for the kind of things that have been going on. I havent. Obama well, look, bob, as i said schieffer i mean, do you take issue with that . Obama you know, heres what i would say. I mean, we can have a debate back and forth about the merits of each others campaigns. I suspect we wont agree here tonight. What i think is most important is that we recognize that to solve the key problems that were facing, if were going to solve two wars, the worst financial crisis since the great depression, if we can if were going to focus on lifting wages that have declined over the last eight years and create jobs here in america, then democrats, independents and republicans, were going to have to be able to work together. Obama and what is important is making sure that we disagree without being disagreeable. And it means that we can have tough, vigorous debates around issues. What we cant do, i think, is try to characterize each other as bad people. And that has been a culture in washington that has been taking place for too long. And i think mccain well, bob, you asked me a direct question. Schieffer short answer, yes, short answer. Mccain yes, real quick. Mr. Ayers, i dont care about an old washedup terrorist. But as senator clinton said in her debates with you, we need to know the full extent of that relationship. We need to know the full extent of senator obamas relationship with acorn, who is now on the verge of maybe perpetrating one of the greatest frauds in voter history in this country, maybe destroying the fabric of democracy. The same front outfit organization that your campaign gave 832,000 for lighting and site selection. So all of these things need to be examined, of course. Schieffer all right. Im going to let you respond and well extend this for a moment. Obama bob, i think its going to be important to just ill respond to these two particular allegations that senator mccain has made and that have gotten a lot of attention. In fact, mr. Ayers has become the centerpiece of senator mccains campaign over the last two or three weeks. This has been their primary focus. So lets get the record straight. Bill ayers is a professor of education in chicago. Forty years ago, when i was 8 years old, he engaged in despicable acts with a radical domestic group. I have roundly condemned those acts. Ten years ago he served and i served on a School Reform board that was funded by one of Ronald Reagans former ambassadors and close friends, mr. Annenberg. Other members on that board were the president s of the university of illinois, the president of northwestern university, who happens to be a republican, the president of the chicago tribune, a republican leaning newspaper. Mr. Ayers is not involved in my campaign. He has never been involved in this campaign. And he will not advise me in the white house. So thats mr. Ayers. Now, with respect to acorn, acorn is a community organization. Apparently what theyve done is they were paying people to go out and register folks, and apparently some of the people who were out there didnt really register people, they just filled out a bunch of names. It had nothing to do with us. We were not involved. The only involvement ive had with acorn was i represented them alongside the u. S. Justice department in making illinois implement a motor voter law that helped people get registered at dmvs. Now, the reason i think that its important to just get these facts out is because the allegation that senator mccain has continually made is that somehow my associations are troubling. Let me tell you who i associate with. On economic policy, i associate with Warren Buffett and former fed chairman paul volcker. If im interested in figuring out my Foreign Policy, i associate myself with my running mate, joe biden or with dick lugar, the republican Ranking Member on the Senate Foreign relations committee, or general jim jones, the former supreme allied commander of nato. Those are the people, democrats and republicans, who have shaped my ideas and who will be surrounding me in the white house. And i think the fact that this has become such an important part of your campaign, senator mccain, says more about your campaign than it says about me. Mccain well, again, while you were on the board of the woods foundation, you and mr. Ayers, together, you sent 230,000 to acorn. So and you launched your Political Campaign in mr. Ayers living room. Obama thats absolutely not true. Mccain and the facts are facts and records are records. Obama and thats not the facts. Mccain and its not the fact its not the fact that senator obama chooses to associate with a guy who in 2001 said that he wished he had have bombed more, and he had a Long Association with him. Its the fact that all the all of the details need to be known about senator obamas relationship with them and with acorn and the American People will make a judgment. And my campaign is about getting this economy back on track, about creating jobs, about a Brighter Future for america. And thats what my campaign is about and im not going to raise taxes the way senator obama wants to raise taxes in a tough economy. And thats really what this campaign is going to be about. Schieffer all right. Lets go to the next topic and you we may want to get back into some of this during this next discussion. I want to ask both of you about the people that youre going to bring into the government. And our best insight yet is who you have picked as your running mates. Schieffer so ill begin by asking both of you this question, and ill ask you to answer first, senator obama. Why would the country be better off if your running mate became president rather than his running mate . Obama well, joe biden, i think, is one of the finest Public Servants that has served in this country. Its not just that he has some of the best Foreign Policy credentials of anybody. And democrats and republicans alike, i think, acknowledge his expertise there. But its also that his entire life he has never forgotten where he came from, coming from scranton, fighting on behalf of working families, remembering what its like to see his father lose his job and go through a downward spiral economically. And, as a consequence, his consistent pattern throughout his career is to fight for the little guy. Thats what hes done when it comes to economic policies that will help working families get a leg up. Thats what hes done when it comes to, for example, passing the landmark 1994 crime bill, the violence against womens act. Joe has always made sure that he is fighting on behalf of working families, and i think he shares my core values and my sense of where the country needs to go. Because after eight years of failed policies, he and i both agree that what were going to have to do is to reprioritize, make sure that were investing in the American People, give tax cuts not to the wealthiest corporations, but give them to Small Businesses and give them to individuals who are struggling right now, make sure that we finally get serious about energy independence, something that has been languishing in washington for 30 years, and make sure that our kids get a great education and can afford to go to college. So, on the key issues that are of importance to american families, joe bidens always been on the right side, and i think he will make an outstanding president if, heaven forbid, something happened to me. Schieffer senator . Mccain well, americans have gotten to know sarah palin. They know that shes a role model to women and other and reformers all over america. Shes a reformer. She is she took on a governor who was a member of her own party when she ran for governor. When she was the head of their energy and Natural Resources board, she saw corruption, she resigned and said, this cant go on. Shes given money back to the taxpayers. Shes cut the size of government. She negotiated with the Oil Companies and faced them down, a 40 billion pipeline of natural gas thats going to relieve the energy needs of the united of what they call the lower 48. Shes a reformer through and through. And its time we had that bresh of freth air sic breath of fresh air coming into our Nations Capital and sweep out the oldboy network and the cronyism thats been so much a part of it that ive fought against for all these years. Shell be my partner. She understands reform. And, by the way, she also understands specialneeds families. She understands that autism is on the rise, that weve got to find out whats causing it, and weve got to reach out to these families, and help them, and give them the help they need as they raise these very special needs children. She understands that better than almost any american that i know. Im proud of her. And she has ignited our party and people all over america that have never been involved in the political process. And i cant tell how proud i am of her and her family. Her husbands a pretty tough guy, by the way, too. Schieffer do you think shes qualified to be president . Obama you know, i think its thats going to be up to the American People. I think that, obviously, shes a capable politician who has, i think, excited the a base in the Republican Party. And i think its very commendable the work shes done on behalf of special needs. I agree with that, john. I do want to just point out that autism, for example, or other special needs will require some additional funding, if were going to get serious in terms of research. That is something that every family that advocates on behalf of disabled children talk about. And if we have an acrosstheboard spending freeze, were not going to be able to do it. Thats an example of, i think, the kind of use of the scalpel that we want to make sure that were funding some of those programs. Schieffer do you think senator biden is qualified . Mccain i think that joe biden is qualified in many respects. But i do point out that hes been wrong on many Foreign Policy and National Security issues, which is supposed to be his strength. He voted against the first gulf war. He voted against it and, obviously, we had to take Saddam Hussein out of kuwait or it wouldve threatened the middle eastern world supply. In iraq, he had this cockamamie idea about dividing iraq into three countries. Were seeing iraq united as iraqis, tough, hard, but were seeing them. Were now about to have an agreement for status of forces in iraq coming up. There are several issues in which, frankly, joe biden and i open and honestly disagreed on National Security policy, and hes been wrong on a number of the major ones. But again, i want to come back to, notice every time senator obama says, we need to spend more, we need to spend more, thats the answer why do we always have to spend more . Why cant we have transparency, accountability, reform of these agencies of government . Maybe thats why hes asked for 860 sought and proposed 860 billion worth of new spending and wants to raise peoples taxes in a time of incredible challenge and difficulty and heartache for the american him and families. Schieffer lets go to lets go to a new topic. Were running a little behind. Lets talk about energy and climate control. Every president since nixon has said what both of you mccain Climate Change. Schieffer Climate Change, yes has said what both of you have said, and, that is, we must reduce our dependence on foreign oil. When nixon said it, we imported from 17 to 34 percent of our foreign oil. Now, were importing more than 60 percent. Would each of you give us a number, a specific number of how much you believe we can reduce our foreign oil imports during your first term . And i believe the first question goes to you, senator mccain. Mccain i think we can, for all intents and purposes, eliminate our dependence on middle eastern oil and venezuelan oil. Canadian oil is fine. By the way, when senator obama said he would unilaterally renegotiate the north American Free trade agreement, the canadians said, yes, and well sell our oil to china. You dont tell countries youre going to unilaterally renegotiate agreements with them. We can eliminate our dependence on foreign oil by building 45 new nuclear plants, power plants, right away. We can store and we can reprocess. Senator obama will tell you, in the as the extreme environmentalists do, it has to be safe. Look, weve sailed navy ships around the world for 60 years with Nuclear Power plants on them. We can store and reprocess spent nuclear fuel, senator obama, no problem. So the point is with Nuclear Power, with wind, tide, solar, natural gas, with development of flex fuel, hybrid, Clean Coal Technology, Clean Coal Technology is key in the heartland of america thats hurting rather badly. So i think we can easily, within seven, eight, ten years, if we put our minds to it, we can eliminate our dependence on the places in the world that harm our National Security if we dont achieve our independence. Schieffer all right. Can we reduce our dependence on foreign oil and by how much in the first term, in four years . Obama i think that in ten years, we can reduce our dependence so that we no longer have to import oil from the middle east or venezuela. I think thats about a realistic timeframe. And this is the most important issue that our future economy is going to face. Obviously, weve got an immediate crisis right now. But nothing is more important than us no longer borrowing 700 billion or more from china and sending it to saudi arabia. Its mortgaging our childrens future. Now, from the start of this campaign, ive identified this as one of my Top Priorities and here is what i think we have to do. Number one, we do need to expand Domestic Production and that means, for example, telling the Oil Companies the 68 million acres that they currently have leased that theyre not drilling, use them or lose them. And i think that we should look at offshore drilling and implement it in a way that allows us to get some additional oil. But understand, we only have three to four percent of the worlds oil reserves and we use 25 percent of the worlds oil, which means that we cant drill our way out of the problem. Thats why ive focused on putting resources into solar, wind, biodiesel, geothermal. These have been priorities of mine since i got to the senate, and it is absolutely critical that we develop a high fuel efficient car thats built not in japan and not in south korea, but built here in the United States of america. We invented the Auto Industry and the fact that we have fallen so far behind is something that we have to work on. Obama now i just want to make one last point because senator mccain mentioned nafta and the issue of trade and that actually bears on this issue. I believe in free trade. But i also believe that for far too long, certainly during the course of the Bush Administration with the support of senator mccain, the attitude has been that any trade agreement is a good trade agreement. And nafta doesnt have did not have enforceable labor agreements and environmental agreements. And what i said was we should include those and make them enforceable. In the same way that we should enforce rules against china manipulating its currency to make our exports more expensive and their exports to us cheaper. And when it comes to south korea, weve got a trade agreement up right now, they are sending hundreds of thousands of south korean cars into the United States. Thats all good. We can only get 4,000 to 5,000 into south korea. That is not free trade. Weve got to have a president who is going to be advocating on behalf of american businesses and American Workers and i make no apology for that. Schieffer senator . Mccain well, you know, i admire so much senator obamas eloquence. And you really have to Pay Attention to words. He said, we will look at offshore drilling. Did you get that . Look at. We can offshore drill now. Weve got to do it now. We will reduce the cost of a barrel of oil because we show the world that we have a supply of our own. Its doable. The technology is there and we have to drill now. Now, on the subject of Free Trade Agreements. I am a free trader. And i need we need to have education and Training Programs for displaced workers that work, going to our community colleges. But let me give you another example of a Free Trade Agreement that senator obama opposes. Right now, because of previous agreements, some made by president clinton, the goods and products that we send to colombia, which is our largest agricultural importer of our products, is theres a billion dollars that we our businesses have paid so far in order to get our goods in there. Because of previous agreements, their goods and products come into our country for free. So senator obama, who has never traveled south of our border, opposes the colombia Free Trade Agreement. The same country thats helping us try to stop the flow of drugs into our country thats killing Young Americans. And also the country that just freed three americans that will help us create jobs in america because they will be a market for our goods and products without having to pay without us having to pay the billions of dollars the billion dollars and more that weve already paid. Free trade with colombia is something thats a nobrainer. But maybe you ought to travel down there and visit them and maybe you could understand it a lot better. Obama let me respond. Actually, i understand it pretty well. The history in colombia right now is that labor leaders have been targeted for assassination on a fairly consistent basis and there have not been prosecutions. And what i have said, because the free trade the trade agreement itself does have labor and environmental protections, but we have to stand for human rights and we have to make sure that violence isnt being perpetrated against workers who are just trying to organize for their rights, which is why, for example, i supported the peruvian Free Trade Agreement which was a wellstructured agreement. But i think that the important point is weve got to have a president who understands the benefits of free trade but also is going to enforce unfair trade agreements and is going to stand up to other countries. And the last point ill make, because we started on energy. When i talked about the automakers, they are obviously getting hammered right now. They were already having a tough time because of high gas prices. And now with the financial crisis, Car Dealerships are closing and people cant get car loans. Thats why i think its important for us to get loan guarantees to the automakers, but we do have to hold them responsible as well to start producing the highly fuelefficient cars of the future. And detroit had dragged its feet too long in terms of getting that done. Its going to be one of my highest priorities because transportation accounts for about 30 percent of our total energy consumption. If we can get that right, then we can move in a direction not only of energy independence, but we can create 5 million new jobs all across america, including in the heartland where we can retool some of these plants to make these highly fuelefficient cars and also to make Wind Turbines and solar panels, the kinds of clean energy approaches that should be the driver of our economy for the next century. Mccain well, let me just said that that this is he senator obama doesnt want a Free Trade Agreement with our best ally in the region but wants to sit down across the table without precondition to with hugo chavez, the guy who has been helping farc, the terrorist organization. Free trade between ourselves and colombia, i just recited to you the benefits of concluding that agreement, a billion dollars of american dollars that could have gone to creating jobs and businesses in the United States, opening up those markets. So i dont i dont think theres any doubt that senator obama wants to restrict trade and he wants to raise taxes. And the last president of the United States that tried that was herbert hoover, and we went from a deep recession into a depression. Were not going to follow that path while im when im president of the United States. Schieffer all right, lets go to a new topic, health care. Given the current economic situation, would either of you now favor Controlling Health care costs over expanding Health Care Coverage . The question is first to senator obama. Obama weve got to do both, and thats exactly what my plan does. Look, as i travel around the country, this is the issue that will break your heart over and over again. Just yesterday, i was in toledo shaking some hands in a line. Two women, both of them probably in their mid to late50s, had just been laid off of their plant. Neither of them have Health Insurance. And they were desperate for some way of getting coverage, because, understandably, theyre worried that, if they get sick, they could go bankrupt. So heres what my plan does. If you have Health Insurance, then you dont have to do anything. If youve got Health Insurance through your employer, you can keep your Health Insurance, keep your choice of doctor, keep your plan. The only thing were going to try to do is lower costs so that those cost savings are passed onto you. And we estimate we can cut the average familys premium by about 2,500 per year. If you dont have Health Insurance, then what were going to do is to provide you the option of buying into the same kind of federal pool that both senator mccain and i enjoy as federal employees, which will give you highquality care, choice of doctors, at lower costs, because so many people are part of this insured group. Were going to make sure that Insurance Companies cant discriminate on the basis of preexisting conditions. Well negotiate with the Drug Companies for the cheapest available price on drugs. We are going to invest in Information Technology to eliminate bureaucracy and make the system more efficient. And we are going to make sure that we manage chronic illnesses, like diabetes and heart disease, that cost a huge amount, but could be prevented. Weve got to put more money into preventive care. This will cost some money on the front end, but over the long term this is the only way that not only are we going to make families healthy, but its also how were going to save the federal budget, because we cant afford these escalating costs. Schieffer all right. Senator mccain . Mccain well, it is a terribly painful situation for americans. Theyre seeing their premiums, their copays go up. Fortyseven million americans are without Health Insurance in America Today. And it really is the cost, the escalating costs of health care that are inflicting such pain on working families and people across this country. And i am convinced we need to do a lot of things. We need to put Health Care Records online. The v. A. Does that. That will that will reduce costs. We need to have more Community Health centers. We need to have walkin clinics. The rise of obesity amongst Young Americans is one of the most alarming statistics that there is. We should have physical fitness programs and nutrition programs in schools. Every parent should know whats going on there. We we need to have we need to have employers reward employees who join health clubs and practice wellness and fitness. But i want to give every American Family a 5,000 refundable tax credit. Take it and get anywhere in america the health care that you wish. Now, my old buddy, joe, joe the plumber, is out there. Now, joe, senator obamas plan, if youre a Small Business and you are able and your the guy that sells to you will not have his Capital Gains tax increase, which senator obama wants, if youre out there, my friend, and youve got employees, and youve got kids, if you dont get adopt the Health Care Plan that senator obama mandates, hes going to fine you. Mccain now, senator obama, id like still like to know what that fine is going to be, and i dont think that joe right now wants to pay a fine when he is seeing such difficult times in americas economy. Senator obama wants to set up health care bureaucracies, take over the health care of america through as he said, his object is a single payer system. If you like that, youll love canada and england. So, the point is schieffer so thats your objective . Obama it is not and i didnt describe it mccain no, you stated it. Obama i just mccain excuse me. Obama i just described what my plan is. And im happy to talk to you, joe, too, if youre out there. Heres your fine zero. You wont pay a fine, because mccain zero . Obama zero, because as i said in our last debate and ill repeat, john, i exempt Small Businesses from the requirement for Large Businesses that can afford to provide health care to their employees, but are not doing it. I exempt Small Businesses from having to pay into a kitty. But Large Businesses that can afford it, weve got a choice. Either they provide Health Insurance to their employees or somebody has to. Right now, what happens is those employees get dumped into either the medicaid system, which taxpayers pick up, or theyre going to the emergency room for uncompensated care, which everybody picks up in their premiums. The average family is paying an additional 900 a year in higher premiums because of the uninsured. So heres what we do. We exempt Small Businesses. In fact, what, joe, if you want to do the right thing with your employees and you want to provide them Health Insurance, well give you a 50 percent credit so that you will actually be able to afford it. If you dont have Health Insurance or you want to buy into a group plan, you will be able to buy into the plan that i just described. Now, what we havent talked about is senator mccains plan. He says hes going to give you all a 5,000 tax credit. That sounds pretty good. And you can go out and buy your own insurance. Heres the problem that for about 20 million people, you may find yourselves no longer having employerbased Health Insurance. This is because younger people might be able to get Health Insurance for 5,000, young and healthy folks. Older folks, lets healthy folks, whats going to end up less healthy folks whats , going to end up happening is that youre going to be the only ones left in your employerbased system, your employers wont be able to afford it. And once youre out on your own with this 5,000 credit, senator mccain, for the first time, is going to be taxing the Health Care Benefits that you have from your employer. And this is your plan, john. For the first time in history, you will be taxing peoples Health Care Benefits. By the way, the average policy costs about 12,000. So if youve got 5,000 and its going to cost you 12,000, thats a loss for you. Last point about senator mccains plan is that insurers right now, the main restrictions on what they do is primarily under mccains plan, those rules would be stripped away and you would start seeing a lot more Insurance Companies cherrypicking and excluding people from coverage. That, i think, is a mistake and i think that this is a fundamental difference in our campaign and how we would approach health care. Schieffer what about that . Mccain hey, joe, youre rich, congratulations, because what joe wanted to do was buy the business that hes been working for 1012 hours a day, seven days a week, and you said that you wanted to spread the wealth, but in other words, take joes money and then you decide what to do with it. Now, joe, youre rich, congratulations, and you will then fall into the category where youll have to pay a fine if you dont provide Health Insurance that senator obama mandates, not the kind that you think is best for your family, your children, your employees, but the kind that he mandates for you. Thats Big Government at its best. Now, 95 of the people in america will receive more money under my plan because they will receive not only their present benefits, which may be taxed, which will be taxed, but then you add 5,000 onto it, except for those people who have the goldplated cadillac insurance policies that have to do with cosmetic surgery and transplants and all of those kinds of things. And the good thing about this is theyll be able to go across america. The average cost of a Health Care Insurance plan in America Today is 5,800. Im going to give them 5,000 to take with them wherever they want to go, and this will give them affordability. This will give them availability. This will give them a chance to choose their own futures, not have senator obama and government decide that for them. This really gets down to the fundamental difference in our philosophies. If you notice that in all of this proposal, senator government wants senator obama wants government to do the job. Senator obama wants government to do the job. I want, joe, you to do the job. I want to leave money in your pocket. I want you to be able to choose the health care for you and your family. Thats what im all about. And weve got too much government and too much spending and the government is the size of government has grown by 40 in the last eight years. We cant afford that in the next eight years and senator obama, with the democrats in charge of congress, things have gotten worse. Have you noticed, theyve been in charge the last two years. Schieffer all right. A short response. Obama very briefly. You all just heard my plan. If youve got an employerbased Health Care Plan, you keep it. Now, under senator mccains plan there is a strong risk that people would lose their employerbased health care. Thats the choice youll have is having your employer no longer provide you health care. And dont take my word for it. The u. S. Chambers of commerce which generally doesnt support , a lot of democrats, said that this plan could lead to the unraveling of the employerbased Health Care System. All i want to do, if youve already got health care, is lower your costs. That includes you, joe. Schieffer all right. Lets stop there and go to another question. And this one goes to senator mccain. Senator mccain, you believe roe v. Wade should be overturned. Senator obama, you believe it shouldnt. Could either of you ever nominate someone to the Supreme Court who disagrees with you on this issue . Senator mccain . Mccain i would never and have never in all the years ive been there imposed a litmus test on any nominee to the court. Thats not appropriate to do. Schieffer but you dont want roe v. Wade to be overturned . Mccain i thought it was a bad decision. I think there were a lot of decisions that were bad. I think that decisions should rest in the hands of the states. Im a federalist. And i believe strongly that we should have nominees to the United States Supreme Court based on their qualifications rather than any litmus test. Now, let me say that there was a time a few years ago when the United States senate was about to blow up. Republicans wanted to have just a majority vote to confirm a judge and the democrats were blocking in an unprecedented fashion. We got together seven republicans, seven democrats. You were offered a chance to join. You chose not to because you were afraid of the appointment of conservative judges. I voted for Justice Breyer and justice ginsburg. Not because i agreed with their ideology, but because i thought they were qualified and that elections have consequences when president s are nominated. This is a very important issue were talking about. Senator obama voted against Justice Breyer and Justice Roberts on the grounds that they didnt meet his ideological standards. Thats not the way we should judge these nominees. Elections have consequences. They should be judged on their qualifications. And so thats what i will do. I will find the best people in the world in the United States of america who have a history of strict adherence to the constitution. And not legislating from the bench. Schieffer but even if it was someone who had a history of being for abortion rights, you would consider them . Mccain i would consider anyone in their qualifications. I do not believe that someone who has supported roe v wade that would be part of those qualifications. But i certainly would not impose any litmus test. Schieffer all right. Obama well, i think its true that we shouldnt apply a strict litmus test and the most important thing in any judge is their capacity to provide fairness and justice to the American People. And it is true that this is going to be, i think, one of the most consequential decisions of the next president. It is very likely that one of us will be making at least one and probably more than one appointments and roe versus wade probably hangs in the balance. Now i would not provide a litmus test. But i am somebody who believes that roe versus wade was rightly decided. I think that abortion is a very difficult issue and it is a moral issue and one that i think good people on both sides can disagree on. But what ultimately i believe is that women in consultation with their families, their doctors, their religious advisers, are in the best position to make this decision. And i think that the constitution has a right to privacy in it that shouldnt be subject to state referendum, any more than our First Amendment rights are subject to state referendum, any more than many of the other rights that we have should be subject to popular vote. So this is going to be an important issue. I will look for those judges who have an outstanding judicial record, who have the intellect, and who hopefully have a sense of what realworld folks are going through. Ill just give you one quick example. Senator mccain and i disagreed recently when the Supreme Court made it more difficult for a woman named Lilly Ledbetter to press her claim for pay discrimination. For years, she had been getting paid less than a man had been paid for doing the exact same job. And when she brought a suit, saying equal pay for equal work, the judges said, well, you know, its taken you too long to bring this lawsuit, even though she didnt know about it until fairly recently. We tried to overturn it in the senate. I supported that effort to provide federal guidance to the courts. John mccain opposed it. I think that its important for judges to understand that if a woman is out there trying to raise a family, trying to support her family, and is being treated unfairly, then the court has to stand up, if nobody else will. And thats the kind of judge that i want. Schieffer times up. Mccain obviously, that law waved the statute of limitations, which you could have gone back 20 or 30 years. It was a trial lawyers dream. Let me talk to you about an important aspect of this issue. We have to change the culture of america. Those of us who are proudly prolife understand that. And its got to be courage and compassion that we show to a young woman whos facing this terribly difficult decision. Senator obama, as a member of the Illinois State senate, voted in the Judiciary Committee against a law that would provide immediate medical attention to a child born of a failed abortion. He voted against that. And then, on the floor of the state senate, as he did 130 times as a state senator, he voted present. Then there was another bill before the senate Judiciary Committee in the state of illinois not that long ago, where he voted against a ban on partialbirth abortion, one of the lateterm abortion, a really one of the bad procedures, a terrible. And then, on the floor of the Illinois State senate, he voted present. I dont know how you vote present on some of that. I dont know how you align yourself with the extreme aspect of the pro Abortion Movement in america. And thats his record, and thats a matter of his record. And hell say it has something to do with roe versus wade, about the Illinois State senate. It was clearcut votes that senator obama voted, i think, in direct contradiction to the feelings and views of mainstream america. Schieffer response . Obama yes, let me respond to this. If it sounds incredible that i would vote to withhold lifesaving treatment from an infant, thats because its not true. The here are the facts. There was a bill that was put forward before the Illinois Senate that said you have to provide lifesaving treatment and that would have helped to undermine roe versus wade. The fact is that there was already a law on the books in illinois that required providing lifesaving treatment, which is why not only myself but prochoice republicans and democrats voted against it. And the illinois medical society, the organization of doctors in illinois, voted against it. Their hippocratic oath would have required them to provide care, and there was already a law in the books. With respect to partialbirth abortion, i am completely supportive of a ban on lateterm abortions, partialbirth or otherwise, as long as theres an exception for the Mothers Health and life, and this did not contain that exception. And i attempted, as many have in the past, of including that so that it is constitutional. And that was rejected, and thats why i voted present, because im willing to support a ban on lateterm abortions as long as we have that exception. The last point i want to make on the issue of abortion. This is an issue that look, it divides us. And in some ways, it may be difficult to to reconcile the two views. But there surely is some Common Ground when both those who believe in choice and those who are opposed to abortion can come together and say, we should try to prevent unintended pregnancies by providing appropriate education to our youth, communicating that sexuality is sacred and that they should not be engaged in cavalier activity, and providing options for adoption, and helping single mothers if they want to choose to keep the baby. Those are all things that we put in the democratic platform for the first time this year, and i think thats where we can find some Common Ground, because nobodys proabortion. I think its always a tragic situation. We should try to reduce these circumstances. Schieffer lets give senator mccain a short response. Mccain just an example of the eloquence of senator obama. Hes prohealth for the mother. You know, thats been stretched by the proAbortion Movement in america to mean almost anything. Thats the extreme proabortion position health. But, look, cindy and i are adoptive parents. We know what a treasure and joy it is to have an adopted child in our lives. Well do everything we can to improve adoption in this country. But that does not mean that we will cease to protect the rights of the unborn. Of course, we have to come together. Of course, we have to work together, and, of course, its vital that we do so and help these young women who are facing such a difficult decision, with a compassion, that well help them with the adoptive services, with the courage to bring that child into this world and well help take care of it. Schieffer lets stop there, because i want to get in a question on education and im afraid this is going to have to be our last question, gentlemen. The question is this the u. S. , spends more per capita than any other country on education. Yet, by every international measurement, in math and science competence, from kindergarten through the 12th grade, we trail most of the countries of the world. The implications of this are clearly obvious. Some even say it poses a threat to our National Security. Do you feel that way and what do you intend to do about it . The question to senator obama first. Obama this probably has more to do with our Economic Future than anything and that means it also has a National Security implication, because theres never been a nation on earth that saw its economy decline and continued to maintain its primacy as a military power. So weve got to get our Education System right. Now, typically, whats happened is that theres been a debate between more money or reform, and i think we need both. In some cases, we are going to have to invest. Early childhood education, which closes the achievement gap, so that every child is prepared for school, every dollar we invest in that, we end up getting huge benefits with improved reading scores, reduced dropout rates, reduced delinquency rates. I think its going to be critically important for us to recruit a generation of new teachers, an army of new teachers, especially in math and science, give them higher pay, give them more professional development and support in exchange for Higher Standards and accountability. And i think its important for us to make college affordable. Right now, i meet young people all across the country who either have decided not to go to college or if theyre going to college, they are taking on 20,000, 30,000, 50,000, 60,000 worth of debt, and its very difficult for them to go into some fields, like basic research in science, for example, thinking to themselves that theyre going to have a mortgage before they even buy a house. And thats why ive proposed a 4,000 tuition credit, every student, every year, in exchange for some form of community service, whether its military service, whether its peace corps, whether its working in a community. If we do those things, then i believe that we can create a Better School system. But theres one last ingredient that i just want to mention, and thats parents. We cant do it just in the schools. Parents are going to have to show more responsibility. Theyve got to turn off the tv set, put away the video games, and, finally, start instilling that thirst for knowledge that our students need. Schieffer senator mccain . Mccain well, its the civil rights issue of the 21st century. Theres no doubt that we have achieved equal access to schools in america after a long and difficult and terrible struggle. But what is the advantage in a low income area of sending a child to a failed school and that being your only choice . So choice and competition amongst schools is one of the key elements thats already been proven in places in like new orleans and new york city and other places, where we have Charter Schools, where we take good teachers and we reward them and promote them. And we find bad teachers another line of work. And we have to be able to give parents the same choice, frankly, that senator obama and mrs. Obama had and cindy and i had to send our kids to the school their kids to the school of their choice. Charter schools arent the only answer, but theyre providing competition. They are providing the kind of competitions that have upgraded both schools types of schools. Now, throwing money at the problem is not the answer. You will find that some of the Worst School Systems in america get the most money per student. So i believe that we need to reward these good teachers. We need to encourage programs such as teach for america and troops to teachers where people, after having served in the military, can go right to teaching and not have to take these examinations which or have the certification that some are required in some states. Look, we must improve education in this country. As far as College Education is concerned, we need to make those Student Loans available. We need to give them a repayment schedule that they can meet. We need to have full Student Loan Program for instate tuition. And we certainly need to adjust the certain loan eligibility to inflation. Schieffer do you think the federal government should play a larger role in the schools . And i mean, more federal money . Obama well, we have a tradition of local control of the schools and thats a tradition that has served us well. But i do think that it is important for the federal government to step up and help local School Districts do some of the things they need to do. Now we tried to do this under president bush. He put forward no child left behind. Unfortunately, they left the money behind for no child left behind. And local School Districts end up having more of a burden, a bunch of unfunded mandates, the same kind of thing that happened with special education where we did the right thing by saying every school should provide education to kids with special needs, but we never followed through on the promise of funding, and that left local School Districts very cashstrapped. So what i want to do is focus on Early Childhood education, providing teachers higher salaries in exchange for more support. Senator mccain and i actually agree on two things that he just mentioned. Charter schools, i doubled the number of Charter Schools in illinois despite some reservations from teachers unions. I think its important to foster competition inside the public schools. And we also agree on the need for making sure that if we have bad teachers that they are swiftly after given an opportunity to prove themselves, if they cant hack it, then we need to move on because our kids have to have their best future. Where we disagree is on the idea that we can somehow give out vouchers give vouchers as a way of securing the problems in our Education System. And i also have to disagree on senator mccains record when it comes to College Accessibility and affordability. Recently his key economic adviser was asked about why he didnt seem to have some specific programs to help young people go to college and the response was, well, you know, we cant give money to every Interest Group that comes along. I dont think americas youth are Interest Groups. I think theyre our future. And this is an example of where we are going to have to prioritize. We cant say were going to do things and then not explain in concrete terms how were going to pay for it. And if were going to do some of the things you mentioned, like lowering loan rates or what have you, somebody has got to pay for it. Its not going to happen on its own. Schieffer what about that, senator . Mccain well, sure. Im sure youre aware, senator obama, of the program in the washington, d. C. , School System where vouchers are provided and theres a certain number, i think it is 1000 and some 9,000 parents asked to be eligible for that. Because they wanted to have the same choice that you and i and cindy and your wife have had. And that is because they wanted to choose the school that they thought was best for their children. And we all know the state of the washington, d. C. , School System. That was vouchers. That was voucher, senator obama. And im frankly surprised you didnt pay more attention to that example. Now as far as the no child left behind is concerned, it was a great first beginning in my view. It had its flaws, it had its problems, the first time we had looked at the issue of education in america from a nationwide perspective. And we need to fix a lot of the problems. We need to sit down and reauthorize it. But, again, spending more money isnt always the answer. I think the Head Start Program is a great program. A lot of people, including me, said, look, its not doing what it should do. By the third grade many times children who were in the Head Start Program arent any better off than the others. Lets reform it. Lets reform it and fund it. That was, of course, outofbounds by the democrats. We need to reform these programs. We need to have transparency. We need to have rewards. Its a system that cries out for accountability and transparency and the adequate funding. And i just said to you earlier, town hall meeting after town hall meeting, parents come with kids, children precious children who have autism. Sarah palin knows about that better than most. And well find and well spend the money, research, to find the cause of autism. And well care for these young children. And all americans will open their wallets and their hearts to do so. But to have a situation, as you mentioned in our earlier comments, that the most expensive education in the world is in the United States of america also means that it cries out for reform, as well. And i will support those reforms, and i will fund the ones that are reformed. But im not going to continue to throw money at a problem. And ive got to tell you that vouchers, where they are requested and where they are agreed to, are a good and workable system. And its been proven. Obama ill just make a quick comment about vouchers in d. C. Senator mccain is absolutely right. The d. C. School system is in terrible shape, and it has been for a very long time. And weve got a wonderful new superintendent there whos working very hard with the young mayor there to try to mccain who supports vouchers. Obama actually, supports charters. Mccain she supports vouchers, also. Obama but the but heres the thing, is that, even if senator mccain were to say that vouchers were the way to go i disagree with him on this, because the data doesnt show that it actually solves the problem. The centerpiece of senator mccains education policy is to increase the Voucher Program in d. C. By 2,000 slots. That leaves all of you who live in the other 50 states without an education reform policy from senator mccain. So if we are going to be serious about this issue, weve got to have a president who is going to tackle it headon. And thats what i intend to do as president. Schieffer all right. Mccain because theres not enough vouchers. Therefore, we shouldnt do it, even though its working. I got it. Schieffer all right. Gentlemen, we have come to the close. Before i ask both of you for your closing statements tonight, id like to invite our viewers and listeners to go to mydebates. Org, where you will find this evenings debates and the three that preceded tonights debate. Now, for the final statements, by a coin toss, senator mccain goes first. Mccain well, thank you again, bob. Thanks to hofstra. And its great to be with you again. I think weve had a very healthy discussion. My friends, as i said in my opening remarks, these are very difficult times and challenges for america. And they were graphically demonstrated again today. America needs a new direction. We cannot be satisfied with what weve been doing for the last eight years. I have a record of reform, and taking on my party, the other party, the special interests, whether it be an hmo patients bill of rights, or trying to clean up the Campaign Finance system in in this country, or whether it be establishment of a 9 11 commission, i have a long record of it. And ive been a careful steward of your tax dollars. We have to make Health Care Affordable and available. We have to make quality education there for all of our citizens, not just the privileged few. We have to stop the spending. We have to stop the spending, which has mortgaged your childrens futures. All of these things and all the promises and commitments that senator obama and i made made to you tonight will base will be based on whether you can trust us or not to be careful stewards of your tax dollar, to make sure america is safe and secure and prosperous, to make sure we reform the institutions of government. Thats why ive asked you not only to examine my record, but my proposals for the future of this country. Ive spent my entire life in the service of this nation and putting my country first. As a long line of mccains that have served our country for a long time in war and in peace, its been the great honor of my life, and ive been proud to serve. And i hope youll give me an opportunity to serve again. Id be honored and humbled. Schieffer senator . Obama well, i want to thank senator mccain and bob for moderating. I think we all know america is in going through tough times right now. The policies of the last eight years and and washingtons unwillingness to tackle the tough problems for decades has left us in the worst economic crisis since the great depression. And thats why the biggest risk we could take right now is to adopt the same failed policies and the same failed politics that weve seen over the last eight years and somehow expect a different result. We need fundamental change in this country, and thats what id like to bring. You know, over the last 20 months, youve invited me into your homes. Youve shared your stories with me. And youve confirmed once again the fundamental decency and generosity of the American People. And thats why im sure that our brighter days are still ahead. But were going to have to invest in the American People again, in tax cuts for the middle class, in health care for all americans, and college for every young person who wants to go. In businesses that can create the new Energy Economy of the future. In policies that will lift wages and will grow our middle class. These are the policies i have fought for my entire career. And these are the policies i want to bring to the white house. But its not going to be easy. Its not going to be quick. It is going to be requiring all of us democrats, republicans, independents to come together and to renew a spirit of sacrifice and service and responsibility. Im absolutely convinced we can do it. I would ask for your vote, and i promise you that if you give me the extraordinary honor of serving as your president , i will work every single day, tirelessly, on your behalf and on the behalf of the future of our children. Thank you very much. Schieffer senator obama, senator mccain, thank you very much. This concludes the final debate. Im Bob Schieffer of cbs news, and i will leave you tonight with what my mother always said go vote now. It will make you feel big and strong. Good night, everyone. [applause] mccain good job. Good job. Obama thank you very much. [applause] announcer we are less than four hours away from the second president ial debate between donald trump and Hillary Clinton. Live coverage begin 7 30 eastern. Right now, a live at what to expect with ginger gibson who spoke with us on washington journal. Campaign so far. Good morning, and thank you for joining us. Guest good morning. Thanks for having me. Host so tonights debate will be a town hall format. That will be first than the fist one. What are the biggest differences you expect to see tonight compared to the first one . Guest this debate has more of a wild card element. The crowd can ask questions. Now, they are vetted beforehand, but we all know theres only so much you can do to get people to say and do the things that you want. It also requires that the candidates demonstrate that they can interact with people. Simply sitting at the podium or the table and repeating their lines or looking to the camera is just not going to fly in a town hall space. They have to be able to show that theyre interacting, that theyre engaging, not just with the viewers at home, but also with the participants there in the town hall. Host can we expect the kinds of questions that are asked from these voters to be different than the questions that a journalist moderating a debate might be . Guest i have to say, as someone who goes out and talks to voters in the swing states on a regular basis, i think were going to see the kind of questions you would mostly expect. People to want hear them talk about the economy. They want to hear them talk about jobs and taxes and National Security. People are asking of the candidates the kind of questions that we ask of the candidates. So not a lot of variation there. What happens thats a little bit different in the questions in a town howl format is they can sometimes have a personal element. A person stands up and says my son is fighting in iraq right now, and i want to you tell me what youre going to do to keep him safe. Or they can stand up and say, i lost my job, or my husband lost his job, and i want you to tell me what youre going to do to revive manufacturing. That personal element is something journalists cant bring to it. The candidates, frankly, cant ignore it while theyre on the stage. Scommoip our viewers can join our conversation. 2027488001 for supporters of donald trump. 2027488000 for Hillary Linton supporters. 2027488003 if you support a third party. D 2027488002 for thirdparty candidates. 8003 for undecided. And how are the audience, how are they selected . Guest many of them were vetted by the commission and by the journalists who are going to be hosting this forum. They were brought in by people who are legitimately undecided. I know my editors are often surprised that i can find undecided main between Hillary Clinton and donald trump, but there are a lot of them out there. I talk to them on an almost daily basis. These are people who either would traditionally vote republican and they just cant bring themselves yet to sign up with donald trump, or have voted democratic in the past and just arent crazy about Hillary Clinton. Host all right. We are talking with ginger gibson of reuters about campaign 2016. Now, theres a lot that has happened since the first debate. Theres a lot thats happened in the last 48 hours. You write in reuters, with his campaign in crisis, u. S. President ial candidate donald trump vowed on saturday to stay in the race, despite calls from more than two dozen prominent republicans for him to drop out, following the release of a recording of him making lewd comments about women. Both trumps wife and his running mate criticized his words, saying that they were insulting and indefensible. How do you think this issue will come up in tonights debate . Guest this is the biggest wild card weve ever seen in a president ial debate. There is no precedent for a major candidate having to come out the day before the second debate and vow to remain in the race. Theres just never been anything like this. I expect that well see both candidates want to engage on this issue. Donald trump made a very hastily recorded video apology on friday night that came out early saturday morning. He hasnt given any other public comment. Hes going to have the largest audience he could ever have acquired to address this head on. His supporters, you know, people in the Republican Party are saying he needs to make a real act of contrition. He needs to apologize for what he said. And Hillary Clintons campaign has said theyre waiting until she gets on that debate stage to have her address it, and thats because they think this is a real problem, and were going to see clinton attack donald trump on this front. Host and in a tweet, donald trump has been responding on twitter in addition to the video that he released. He said the media and establishment want me out of the race so badly, then in a twitter shout, he adds, i will never drop out of the race, will never let my supporters down, maga, make America Great again. How do you expect him to handle this tonight . I mean, he was criticized in the first debate for his composure or lack thereof. Do you think that that might happen again . Guest if i had the ability to guess what donald trump was going to do tonight, i think i would be getting paid a lot more money. It is the big Million Dollar question. Does he get up there and apologize, say im sorry, this is something i regret, im a changed man . I hope American People realize that thats just not who i am anymore, that im a different person. Or does he get up there and talk about bill clintons marital infidelities . In which case, all bets are off. He has said thats what hes going to do. He was retweeting, last night on twitter, which would also point to that. And thats a very risky political move. We know that when people talk about bill clintons marital infidelities, they dont blame hillary for it. If hes trying to win women voters, that might not be the way to go. Host joe is calling from dallas. Youre with with ginger gibson. Caller good morning. My question is to the young lady, if i could ask the question of mr. Trump and mrs. Clinton, with the United States so divided and so many poor people and so many rich, what would be their real plan to help everyone in the United States . Because i think that right there is what it boils down to. Host ok. Is that an issue that you expect to come up tonight . Guest i do expect to see both candidates asked to address what theyre going to do about income inequality. It is something weve seen discussed by democrats and republicans in this race. It is an issue that comes up time and time again. And to your point about being divided, i could ask Hillary Clinton the question, one of the first questions i would ask them would be what would you do once you want to try to unify this country . We could see president ial election end without either one of them taking a simple majority of the popular vote. It looks like thats the direction that were moving in. And reuniting our country both economically and more figuratively as were so divided over this election thats going to be a big issue moving forward. Host maria calling in from fairfax, virginia, a thirdparty supporter. Good morning, maria. Caller good morning. Basically i voted for bernie sanders. Now im voting for hillary, because i feel like donald trump is 100 unqualified. Hill have i qualified, although i was not 100 for hillary. But its embarrassed when i travel overseas. I was a diplomat, and i began to see this after donald trump announced his candidacy. The whole world look at the United States like people are ignorant, we all are racist, and im afraid to have a type of world because of donald trump. Host ok. Lets let ginger gibson. Guest first, congratulations on casting your first ballot as an american citizen. Thats always a big moment for people who become citizens. So enjoy that moment next month when you head into the booth. I think that we do see a lot of people when i talk to voters, i hear a lot of concern about what donald trump is going to do on an international stage. If he says these things that are outlandish about america, in america, thats one thing. But what happens when hes asked a United Nations General Assembly and he says something that provokes one of our allies . I do hear that concern a lot, and thats a challenge that donald trump is going to have to face tonight at the debate. Hes going to have to continue to try to lessen those concerns for undecided voters and convince them hes not going to do anything to embarrass the United States, that he can be evenkeeled, he can bite his tongue when he needs to, and that he can proceed as a diplomat. Host he has been pegging himself as the champion of working class voters. But he has to be able to convey that tonight if hes in the Washington Post previewing the debate, points out, town halls test two things at once, the depth of your substantive knowledge and also your capacity for empathy. They test your head and heart, said paul begala, who advised bill clintons first president ial campaign. Will trump show his empathy for workingclass people, and can he do that . Guest he will. He has won over many bluecollar, particularly white male voters, by satisfying i feel your pain by saying i feel your pain. I think donald trump is going to have the biggest challenge to appear human that hes ever had in this election cycle. With all the controversy about this explicit video and his remarks, hes going to want to say im a human being, heres where i feel for you. Bill clinton was well known for his ability to get on a stage and make the person feel like he was talking directly to them and that he heard their woes and their troubles. That is a political skill that we rarely see ever, and i dont believe either donald trump or Hillary Clinton has that particular skill. But both of them are going to be trying to emulate it as much as possible. Host ok. Israel is calling in from south burlington, vermont, a trump supporter. Youre on with ginger gibson of reuters. Caller good morning. How yall doing today . Host good. Caller yeah, my comment is that donald trump, i dont want to say this really, but hes kind of like gangster wise, hes streetwise. The way that he talks behind closed doors is the way that he expresses himself behind closed doors. And he talks like it in front of people. You know, hell bring it up the way it is. He doesnt disguise it like hillary tries to disguise it or anybody else tries to disguise it. He just comes straight out and just lets words come out of his mouth the way they supposed to, you know . Besides all that, i mean, what he said about the judge and about the Miss Universe padgett, i read his book, i see how he was trying to help this girl, you know what im saying . The media completely turned that on him. Host well, lets let ginger gibson respond to that. How do you think those issues will come up, or will they come up tonight . Guest i expect them to come up tonight. I expect, if not a question from the audience or the moderators, Hillary Clinton is going to force the issue. His remarks have been largely criticized, but defended as well. I know i spoke with people yesterday in writing about the video, that this is just the way he talks behind closed doors, and its just two guys, he didnt really mean t. His campaign tried to call it locker room talk. Now, the response to that is that it borderlines on sexual assault, and that no one should talk that way behind closed doors and that it was inappropriate and that we simply got a look at it. Ere going to see that on full display at the debate tonight. Were going to see Hillary Clinton saying what you said was inappropriate and that you shouldnt have said those things or advocated for those things, and we got a glimpse of that. But i do think that, people start wondering, is anyone absolutely not. Lots of people see this as just the way that he talks. One woman yesterday said men talk that way, its just what they do. And theres, especially among his supporters, a lot of belief that its fine, that it was ok that he said those things. Host all right. Anthony is calling from new york, hes a thirdparty supporter. Good morning, anthony. Caller good morning. Good morning, cspan. Yes, im a cspan nut for many, many years. m following everything. Whatever the republicans talk negative, t is true, and whatever. And whatever they say about hillary, theres a lot thats true. Personally ill never forgive her for the war powers act. You got to be stupid if you voted for that or very ambitious. Out of all of this emerges bernie sanders. Bernie has all these people giving more contributions. Thats the real call of this nation, and he was doing very well. He got knocked out with this super p. A. C. Business. And so what we have is a little seedling called jill stein, who is morales like bernie sanders, but she does not operate, although she tried to jump over the banks thing. But i would love to see her emerge. And if wikileaks really finds hillary guilty of crimes, then she is out. Host hang on, anthony. Thats a lot to tackle. What about the issue of third parties . Neither dr. Stein mr. Governor johnson will be at the debate tonight. What have you been hearing about the standards, and do people oppose the decision to keep, particularly governor johnson, who is polling in double digits, not beat enough, out of the debate . Guest im sure youre going to be wishing jill stein was there and maybe even gary johnson. We have polling, reuters does polling, asking voters about the inclusion of thirdparty candidates in the debates. Its interesting to look at the numbers, because people think yes, they should be included. Gary johnson thinks he should be included. Do you think there should be a threshold . Everyone says yes, there should be a threshold. Do you think that threshold should be 15 . Absolutely, we think that its a good number. And then you say, well, gary johnson is not a 15 , and they go, well, well, it doesnt quite add up. There has to be some type of threshold. If you look at a ballot or Campaign Finance disclosures, hundreds of people actually are registered to vote, and you couldnt fit them all on this page. The 15 threshold absolutely will be reevaluated. Gary johnson may become a oneman campaign for changing that threshold. He talks about it all the time. But it is a difficult thing for the commission to deal with. Gary johnson got a lot of exposure, more exposure than most thirdparty candidates ever get and wasnt able to turn it into breaking the threshold. I think its going to cause a lot of questions about whether or not the threshold is too high or if it was exactly right. But despite all that coverage, he still couldnt break through. Host we are talking with ginger gibson, a Campaign Correspondent at reuters, also previously worked at the International Business times, as well as politico. So tell us a little bit about how the candidates are preparing for tonights debate, how they have prepared. Has donald trump prepared, and what do you expect Hillary Clinton to be doing today . Guest Hillary Clinton has been holding intensive study meetings essentially. Holed up in her home in new york. Aides coming in, policy advisors. Theyre going through the minutia of policy. And frankly, clinton enjoys that. She is sort of she sort of calls herself a policy wonk. Spending lots of time, going back about the minutia of economic policy. Sounds like a good time for her. Thats what shes been doing. Donald trump has taken a very nontraditional approach to debate preparation. He has not, especially in the most recent, between the first debate and second, have the sort of intensive study sessions. He doesnt know policy as well. He doesnt speak to the minutia. Frankly, if he tried to, it probably wouldnt play to his strengths. Thats not what people want to hear from him. So it doesnt make sense for him to really sort of stick his nose in a book and learn all of the minutia of the tax code. Instead, hes having more broader study sessions. We know that he has done some practice with new jersey governor chris christie, whos very famous for his town hall and how he interacts with folks at town Hall Meetings. I spent my life following him around the state of new jersey. So he got christie, so it will be interesting to see. And rudy giuliani, the former mayor of new york, who has become one of the leading spokespeople for this campaign in the public arena. We talked earlier about the wild card and whether or not trump is going to attack bill clinton. I think we probably, if we were flies on the wall in trumps preparations, theres opinions between governor christie and mayor giuliani over whether he should do that. So it will be interesting in a tug of war which one won out. Host ok. Debbie is calling in from maryland. Thirdparty supporter. Good morning, debbie. Caller hi. My questions are really all for gary johnson, because i feel like he should have been included in this debate. I know there has to be a threshold, but he has well over a million supporters on a petition to get him in the debate. He has a lot more support than anyone realizes. And the threshold that you were talking about, ginger, was set by the republicans and democrats, not the thirdparty people. I feel like i dont have a voice. I am a registered republican, but i cant in good conscience vote