Commissioner ramsey got the worst news that a Police Commissioner could get when he learned that one of his officers were shot in the line of duty in philadelphia. Let me introduce are two reporters who cover the Justice Department. Kevin johnson is National Reporter for usa today. And the National Reporter for the washington post. You are first. Thank you for coming. I know you have been involved in a real intensive review over the last 90 days. You heard from a number of police groups. They sounded fairly defensive about how the ferguson situation had cast policing currently. I dont want to say resistant to police tactics, but i wonder if after your review has been published, do you feel like there is a recognition on the part of Law Enforcement that changes were necessary. That is a very important question to ask. Going forward, policing in this country is really a local function. We have close to 18,000 Police Departments in this country at the state and local level. We are looking at state and local departments as they need to lean forward and embrace the need for change. As chuck ramsey said. It is really a question of the need for Law Enforcement to own this issue. I would say your question is an important one. Do you feel like there is this recognition that some things that came from ferguson are problems or challenges that we need to confront . My own view is an optimistic one. For example i have been active with the International Association of chiefs of police and chairman of one of their committees. At their annual meeting this october, which was after ferguson i heard so much talk from cheese and departments around the country who were cognizant of what happened in ferguson and changes that need to be made in communities. That gives me hope. The kinds of testimony that we heard from witnesses. We heard from chiefs that are undertaking innovation and more importantly, Community Members from advocates who are coming forward in cities like cincinnati and other jurisdictions who say we have had problems and we are making progress. Those of the kind of things that give me hope. Do i think the problem is solved in any way . No, i dont. But steps are being taken. When i see also from Police Organizations that have come to us and said that they view this report that a sitting here on the table and describe it as a landmark document, that also gives me optimism. Kevin thanks. Sari kevin and i were together at the Justice Department this week when the Civil Rights Division released two reports. One on why the decision was made not to charge officer wilson in the shooting of Michael Brown, and the second one was really a scathing report about the Ferguson Police department. About the racial bias, and about the unconstitutional acts of policing. And im wondering what your reaction to that report is . And also, when you traveled around the country with commissioner ramsey and listen to people in other cities, what is your sense of how common what the Justice Department found in ferguson is in the other Police Departments . As you said, 18,000 other Law Enforcement agencies. Professor robinson well, i have not read the report, so i dont want to comment on the report in particular. Of course, it was really about 60 or 70 days for our study. I would not presume to have surveyed the 18,000 departments, but we were concerned about for example, the practice of municipalities and Police Departments having, in effect, quotas for officers going out and issuing tickets in some instances based on some number for purposes of revenue generation, rather than public safety. That was something that we made a recommendation specifically that this should not be pursued because testimony that we collected said that this is a problem that is not common only to what we had heard through the media occurring in ferguson. So that is something that we were concerned about. And so there certainly are some of those practices that are not something that is occurring simply in that jurisdiction. Sari and again, from your experience going around the country and listening in communities, what you think do you think the obstacles will be for these reforms to be implemented, to be put in place, given the culture of policing that you have heard much about . Professor robinson yes. I think there are several of those obstacles. One of them has to do with very broadly looking at the culture of policing. And that, of course, is a broad kind of issue. One point there has to do, of course, with education and training. We have in the report six chapters that we call pillars. One of those pillars is devoted to the subject of training and education. And i will point to several different issues that we address there. One has to do with recruitment recruit training, and another has to do with leadership training. On the latter, we suggest that there is a clear federal role. That the federal government should help to fund what we call innovation hubs for training around the country so that there is a standardized curriculum which can really address some key needs here. Issues like how to deescalate encounters by police. Issues like turning toward more of a guardian mentality in policing, rather than what is kind of a warrior mindset. Issues like how to deal with the mentally ill when officers encounter them on the street. So those are the kind of issues that we are looking at there. We have also suggested that the federal government look at funding Something Like a Postgraduate Institute for police leadership. This is something that england has done. They have a National College of policing. To try and educate the next generation of police leaders. It is something that could help to carry us forward to the next generation of police leadership. So we have to look down the road on these kinds of things as we are looking to change the culture of policing. Kevin adequate training seems to be a common theme that runs the entire report. And one of the things that are striking about it is when you look, you have you have a chart in their, which breaks down the size of Police Department across the country. First, the number of departments is striking in itself. Almost 18,000 at the moment. But nearly 16,000 of those departments are of a size of one officer to 50. Which relates in some way to ferguson. Ferguson, a very, very small agency. Some of the findings in ferguson indicated a real lack of training, if any. Structures that didnt even exist. And i wonder, given the number of departments that have so few officers, i wonder if you have confidence that those departments do get adequate training, given the size and perhaps where they are in the country. Professor robinson of course, many localities really value and cherish their local departments. So we are very respectful of that. But we do have one recommendation in the report that encourages the use of shared services. So regional training would be one way to approach that. And we have encouraged the Justice Department to have the office of Community Oriented services, provide technical assistance, or even funding. If available. To utilize those kind of shared services, if they are very small. To really look towards even potentially combining forces toward that because it is very difficult for a Small Department to send officers to training because they then have to take them out of patrol and send them off the field. Kevin is there a point where a departments operation and while ferguson is in the news, the question is not specific to ferguson but should the question be asked to whether or not all these departments are necessary . And when it becomes, you know, time to decide whether or not their operations should be salvageable . Professor robinson i think that question down the road does need to be asked. It is a question that england has asked in the past and has moved towards larger department. Sari i wanted to followup on your comment or reference to an earlier answer about technology. I was just reading a story in political magazine that is about policing. They were looking at the oakland Police Department, where they have instituted body cameras since 2009. In that short it of time, they have seen the number of complaints of Excessive Force dropped to one quarter of what they were before the body cameras. How important is technology to solving some of the issues . Professor robinson i think our judgment is that technology, like body cameras, are not a panacea. But they can be useful in addition to other steps. In order to really bridge the gap between a community and Law Enforcement. Many steps of communication and trust building need to be taken so they can be an added step along the way. But as an example, the communities should be consulted as you are implementing Technology Like body cameras. And the research along the way that has been done does demonstrate that body cameras can be helpful. But there are many challenges about using body worn cameras. For example, privacy issues arise. If you are going into a home where there are children, what happens with that part of the tape . When you are interviewing a rape victim, does that part of the tape get released . And in many states, we learn the laws on Public Record would provide that all of the tape is easily accessible to those Public Record laws. So those, we recommend need to be reexamined. Those Public Record laws. There are also very large costs involved, especially in the storage of the videotapes. Jurisdictions need to have their eyes pretty wide open in going into this. Susan about 12 minutes left. Sari commissioner ramsey is not here today because of the death of robert wilson, an africanamerican officer who was killed in philadelphia. Two days ago, another africanamerican officer was killed in georgia. Can you talk a little bit about and again, from your expense experience going around the country this aspect of the debate on race and policing . And what you heard out there about the real dangers and the aspect of selfdefense and policing, and how this is a part of the debate. Professor robinson clearly, Law Enforcement is a dangerous profession. And one of our listening sessions was devoted to officer safety and wellness. Because we recognize that there is a lot of risk not just from the potential of being shot or killed, but also from the stress that occurs, and other problems that can arise that threaten the health of officers from the job that they undertake. So we devoted an entire hearing to that come and have a whole set of recommendations related to that. But specifically relating to that issue, we recommended, for example, the reauthorization of the bulletproof vest legislation and Adequate Funding for that. And that every officer who serves in this country be provided a bulletproof vest, and that there be a mandatory where wear policy. So that was one thing. But we also noted that a large percentage of the officers who have died in the course of duty it has been as the result of vehicular accidents. Many officers who are racing to the scene of a call do not wear their seatbelts because they want to be ready to jump out at the scene of the crime. And because they are wearing so much gear, it is a little bit awkward sometimes to be wearing that seatbelt. Some departments, as a result, have instituted mandatory seatbelt wear policies. And we have endorsed that, but in fact, commissioner ramsey has suggested that there be some Technology Developed to make the seatbelt easier to get off in the case of officers who are wearing all of their gear. So we are looking at some Technology Issues around this, as an example. Sari picking up on an earlier question with criticism of your report even though there are many good recommendations is that you didnt require body cameras. Some officers i have talked to say they feel like they would like to have those by the cameras. Can you talk a little bit more about why you didnt require the body cameras . And also, another requirement that people felt to be in the report is federal funding tied to training on racial bias. Professor robinson addressing the first one, any jurisdiction because policing is a local matter in this country any jurisdiction could, of course, require body cameras. I think it ignores the fact that there may be local decisions that will very on that front. Vary on that front. And part of a we said is that every Police Department should consult the community about what that community thinks is best. So i think it is overriding what local communities would decide. And part of that goes to issues around cost. The costs are pretty high. The purchase, as i understand it, and im not a technology person, but the cost is much less about purchasing the individual body camera than about the storage, the redaction costs which require paying for the time of somebody to go to through the redaction. Apparently, it takes a fulltime person to handle redaction because the tapes are subpoenaed regularly in court cases. So it is a big job on redaction. And then there are other issues surrounding it, too. Public record law issues. So that is a little more complicated than just, we will order them up and send them out. So that was the first issue. And your second issue was around the required training. The federal funding, and basically whether or not to condition grants around the training, we basically do not get into a lot on conditioning grants. I think primarily for the recent reason that most federal grants that are going out like a block grant go directly to the state. There are no federal grants that go to all 18,000 Police Departments. So there would be no way to reach all of those department. And, quite frankly, the ones who might need it the most are the smaller departments. I would say most of those Small Departments dont receive any federal grants. That would be harder to reach. Susan five minutes left. Kevin one shortcoming, in terms of analyzing Law Enforcement encounters, especially those that are racially charged, is a lack of data. And there has been some legislation that is now going or supposed to require the collection of that data. But it is very there are a number of questions that remain about how that data is going to be collected. Who is going to manage it . Do you know how that data is going to be collected, and who is going to manage it . And how quickly such a repository can be constructed . Professor robinson well, the death in custody data i think would be collected by the bureau of justice statistics. Is that what you are referring to . I think that is clearly the bureau of justice statistics that would collect that. I think the question about how really it will, and go readily it will come in goes, again, to the 18,000 state and local departments. My understanding, from talking with a statistician at dhs, is that they do get some of that data in, but basically it is a voluntary matter. Logic departments tend to report data, smaller larger departments tend to report data, smaller departments if you have nine or 10 officers, you dont have a data department. And so it may be much more difficult for them to do it. I think one of the answers here will be to work with the professional associations of for example, the International Association of chiefs of police the sheriffs association. And who work with them and trying to reach those departments. Kevin should federal aid be tied to that requirement . Professor robinson i think that can definitely be done, but remember my comment two minutes ago, many of the smaller departments do not receive federal grants. So there is no leverage there. Sari youre in the Justice Department and you are a professor of criminology. I was so surprised that there was never a database for the use of force. Did that come as a surprise to you . And why was it a voluntary kind of information gathering . Professor robinson it was not a surprise to me because actually, back in the 1990s, there were attempts to set up such a database through the National Institute of justice. But again, it goes back to the large numbers of departments and the fact that in a country like ours with a federal system, you have these multiple, multiple small jurisdictions who operate independently. And you can ask for data, and they are busy and small, and they may just it is not necessarily that they dont want to cooperate, but they are just busy and they may or may not have time to send things in. And there are also difficult questions about how to define use of data. Those can be cost by this question of then getting the men and figuring them out. But the main question is, how to collect it from so many departments . Susan as we close out here, your number one recommendation was the establishment of the National Crime and justice task force. And you do note that this has been called for since 1967. So, let me ask you whether or not you think theres Something Different about this time the and place that some of these recommendations and real changes might be affected now versus times in the past when we have had similar crises . Professor robinson i think what is different now is that there is a great focus on criminal justice. You can see people on both the left and the right focusing on issues relating to drugs relating to sentencing, relating to mass incarceration. So maybe the time is now for a broader look at criminal justice. Susan thank you for your time this week. Professor robinson thank you. Susan newsmakers is back. 20th century policing. I would like to both of you have been at the Justice Department this week as they issued their report on ferguson, missouri. This morning, the president was on the joe madison show. And he talked a little bit about ferguson. Lets listen to some of what he had to say. President obama we just saw the ferguson report come out. I dont think that is typical of what happens across the country, but it is not an isolated incident. I think that there are circumstances in which trust between communities and Law Enforcement have broken down. And individuals or entire departments may not have the training or accountability to make sure that, you know, they are protecting and serving all people, and not just some. Susan i wanted to play that because i wanted to ask you a scene we were talking about with ms. Robinson is what happens next . The president created this task force. The Justice Department has issued its findings on ferguson. We seem to be at some point of national attention. If not a tipping point. But where does this go . Kevin well, i think one of the questions that is raised from this report not only the findings, which were devastating for ferguson but i think it is a question that the president raised in his remarks just now. How many other departments are in similar straits . The attorney general remarked after the report was made public that the public trust between the community and the Police Department had been broken long ago. And that it seemed to be waiting for an incident to sort of work as a fuse to set this off. And so so it raises the question of how many other communities are in a similar way . And from the department possible records, there are a number of departments who are struggling with this issue. Susan what do you see happening next . Sari it is interesting because eric holder talked about the tinderbox. That ferguson is a tender bucks. And that when a Michael Brown was shot, there was so much misinformation that came out of that. That is why so many people are surprised about the report clearing officer wilson from Michael Browns shooting and what he said was that because there had been so much mistrust in this community, it was just ready to explode really. As a tinderbox. I think so much is going to depend on how successful the Justice Department is in implementing their 26 some recommendations. How much cooperation they are going to get. Are people going to be fired for those racist emails . Are they going to get a change in leadership . There is really going to have to be, as holder said, a wholesale change in that department for feeling of trust to be buildup in the community. Susan beyond ferguson, picking up on kevins comments, is this a time of national reexamination of the relationships between communities and the Police Departments who serve them . Or will this be a flash and move on again . Mr. King two decades or so ago. So, i mean, is this different . Sari it feels different to me. I think that the fbi director gave a very powerful speech a couple of weeks ago at georgetown university. And he talked about this being a very important crossroads, really. Where, and he quoted a broadway show song, everybodys a little bit racist, in talking about the problems between communities and the police who are in these communities. And the need for dialogue. It is so interesting because when eric holder first became attorney general, he got into trouble for giving this speech talking about a nation of cowards. He is ending his tenure, and the fbi director is giving a speech about how important it is to talk about race now in america. Susan last question specifically about this task force that ms. Robinson and chief commissioner ramsey i am wondering, what kind of leverage it has. You asked a lot of questions about the size of Police Forces around the country. Professor robinson said there is very little federal leverage because they are small and locally run. So how does change come about in smaller Police Forces . Kevin the federal government does not really have a lot of leverage over these local departments. Except in the pocketbook. In terms of what kind of federal