Transcripts For CSPAN Key Capitol Hill Hearings 20160327

The dea said that heroin is currently available in larger by aities, that it is used large number of people, and that it is causing the increasing number of Overdose Deaths in his expert . Mr. Milione yes, sir. Representative hice i want to focus on where this is coming from. Mr. Milione, let me start with you. Fromr test a meeting your testimony, it sounds to me like the da is going to focus less on the mexicobased organizations that are trafficking heroin and focusing thaton the street gangs are distributing heroin. We are never going to go away from our core mission of working up the chain. The link point that bridges the violent distribution sales domestically and also the cartels that are flooding the country with the heroin. It is absolutely not one or the other. It is a conference of approach. There atative hice is greater emphasis on the dissolution side of things . Mr. Milione i wouldnt say it is a greater emphasis. It is a shift of focus or we can do everything we can to get the violent dissolution sales. Under control. Representative hice is it fair to say that our interdiction efforts with the cartels have failed or at least not been as cisco as we had hoped . Mr. Milione i wouldnt characterize it as a failure. Interdiction is one part of it. We are focused on going after the actual individuals who are selling the powder, who are pushing it, the for structure, the corrupting influence, the money. it soundsive hice to me you are saying the evidences will be on the dissolution side of things. Mr. Milione i dont believe i said it would the just on the dissolution side there will be emphasis on the description side and also on the supplysider. Representative hice i shook my head all of this because we have been on this war on drugs forever. And its getting worse. We are not making any headway on this. You mentioned a while ago that we have a great relationship with the mexican government. And that relationship the reality is heroin is coming over the border now than it ever has. What good is a great relationship if we are not addressing the problem . At some point, this thing is getting worse and worse and worse. And we are throwing more and more money to it all the time. Frankly, it doesnt appear to me as though anything is happening that would problem go to the point of what you said a while ago, that we are addressing this aggressively. Mr. Milione sme who has served for 20 years and seen sacrifices of the men and women of the da in dangerous it it of the dea in dangerous situations, we are dealing with a difficult and cockpit of problem. We are working to reduce demand, but we are also going after the organizations. Investigations of highly dangerous, sophisticated cartels operating i am not ine hice any way belittling the agents in the field. But to try to give a picture that we are aggressively dealing with the problem went, in reality, it is getting worse and worse, it is putting forth a false image. You can disagree all you want. The fact is that problem is getting worse. You yourself has admitted that. Mr. Milione i dont disagree that it is a difficult problem and that there are parts that are getting worse. But i am not painting a picture that is and that is inaccurate when i say that we are doing everything we can at acumen to sacrifice. Representative hice how many people have been arrested in the Rolling Thunder program . Mr. Milione i cannot say you how many have been arrested. I will have to get back to with any specific statistics. Representative hice mr. Chairman, thank you. I see my time has expired. Mica the gentleman from california. iresentative the soldier would like to ask a couple of questions on the opiate side. Came to meuent who and made me aware of her personal situation where her son was going to school at the university of arizona and drove to los angeles with some other students who actually go to a doctor in los angeles and then overdosed. This doctor was recently convicted, multiple convicted convictions in los angeles. Constituent who drove to a baskinrobbins on afternoon and one of his skins desk is gives was killed right in front of him when a woman who had been abusing opiates and was dropped him across. One of the things that we were able to do in california was update our prescription Monitoring Systems. My question is really around Electronic Health records, where i would talk to doctors and they would say that electronic else records are right around the corner. Dr. Shopping will be a thing of the past. We talked with the attorney general in california. That process is in effect now and we are just weeding to see how effective that is. Arer. Botticelli and we just waiting to see how effective that is. So mr. Botticelli, it seems to me, it would be fairly efficient for the federal government to provide the infrastructure for a nationwide electronic Monitoring Systems so the department of justice in all 50 states would have red flags so they would see if a doctor, like the doctor in los angeles, is abusing his or her privileges or, if a client is dr. Shopping. Botticelli to your point, we are seeing a tremendous amount of success. We actually looked at when we started, we had only 20 states drugeffective prescription monitoring programs. And now we have 49 states to do that. We thought it was more prudent because we had some a states that already had an existing program to really look at state level. Point, what we are turned to focus on next is interstate data sharing so that states can talk to one of the desktop to one another and operability with Electronic Health records. In the to be responsive version of workload and how do we get timely information to them by supporting that. We have been working with hhs and others. This is an important priority for governors as well. We have talked with the National Governors association in terms of what states can do. This is one of the more effective tools we have seen. The we also need physicians to use them. So part of this is, you know, i get come i think we are very interested in states that have passed not only mandatory education, but, like massachusetts just did, checking the Prescription Drug monitoring , not only at first it but only a first dispensing, but every dispensing. And they are only as good as when people use them. Inresentative desaulnier early california, we have a lot of kaiser clients. Andou have a closed system there is still a problem. There is a financial aspect to this. For them, if they were able to use electronic records, both for the cost and for the efficient use of the system, but also to protect clients from being either overprescribed or clients taken advantage of the system. How far away are we from having a strong electronic Monitoring System that can do both . Seeing in some states great progress. In 2012, we had the opportunity to issue grants for the enhanced into Prescription Drug programs hrt offer operability with and interstate operability. And if those states, during the period of the grant, we had six of the nine states that were able to achieve that operability. Post a grant, we have two more states that are in line so they can start exchanging information very soon. A relatively small investment, partnering with cdd, with the national coordinator, we were able to get eight out of nine states to achieve that level of interoperability. thesentative desaulnier u. S. Has about 5 of the worlds population, but we use over 80 of the opiates. How much of this is the criminal aspect of this . Mr. Botticelli i would say very little. Again, i think this has been a concerted effort by the Pharmaceutical Company to look at falsely promoting those medications. We gave the cdc guidelines become so important of looking at not having opioid therapy as a firstline defense for chronic pain. When you do so with opioids, for some people who do need them, starting with the smallest, the lowest dosage and the smallest possible amount. You know, weelieve have made progress in many areas, but not enough progress in of lamenting safe opioid prescribing behavior. Chairman mica let me recognize mr. Carter from georgia. Carter thank you for being here. I have been in and out. I apologize. I had three Committee Meetings at the same time. I want to associate myself as a ball with all the comments that have been made about marijuana being a gateway drug and leading to drug abuse. I could not feel more adamantly about that. I just want to make sure everybody understands that. For those of you who dont know, i am a pharmacist, not practicing anymore. I have over 35 years of experience and a lot of experience with opioids as a dispenser. I am blessed that i have never taken any drugs and never had that im human. I have weaknesses, but thats not one of them and i feel very strongly about that. I will just are with you, mr. Milione. This is very uncomfortable. I would tell you that almost a year ago, a little over a year ago in fact, in cap a judge ruled against the actions of dea when you rated a compounding pharmacy. You completely shut down the pharmacy without real cause. Are you familiar with that situation . Mr. Milione im not. Needsentative carter you to be. This is not a shining example he want to point toward. This is an example where one of your supervisors conducted a raid and at the time had no experience in diversion investigation, hadnt written had not read the da handbook and had shut down the business, seized hundreds of thousands of dollars of medicine and rendered them useless, all because the dea misinterpreted and failed to follow their own laws. This is, as the judge said, per sponsors preposterous. I support that dea. I dont like anybody in health care who is not practicing by the best of standards. Weve got bad pharmacies out there. Weve got that pharmacists. Weve got bad doctors. R. Wen , you cant paint with a broad brush there are bad actors in every profession. But this kind of action is totally an acceptable. Especially when you have someone coming to your pharmacy bearing guns. That is unacceptable. I hope you will look at that. It is westchase pharmacy. I want to ask you, dr. Wen especially, you know, we talked about opioids being used as the entrylevel drug for pain control. One of the problems i see here, and mr. Bout, we were together before and mr. Botticelli, we worked together before. One of the problems i see is the fda taking products off of the market. Specifically, i want to talk ropoxin. R coxon p when they took it off, what did it do . It led people and opioids. That the only choice that doctors had. What do you do now . You had ibuprofen and acetaminophen. As a pharmacist, i can tell you. You try to give a patient something that is available without a prescription, you are not able to convince them that it is going to work. And i will tries hard as i can and i cant convince them of that. Thejust like the oxygen porpoxiden. Problems. T he had its im not trying to question that. What i am trying to point out is that we need more entrylevel dogs drugs, some bit drugs, something in between ibuprofen and acetaminophen and opioid. For doctorselines is very helpful. It needs to be enforced more. It needs to have some kind of teeth in it. Is mailorderm pharmacies sending these gigantic containers of opioids to the doorsteps of people, leaving them on the doorsteps for them to who knows whats going to happen to them. You get a 90day supply. They bring them to the drugstores all the time, joining containers giant containers of opioids. That needs to be suppressed, mr. Milione. The dea is to do something about that. That is ridiculous. The last thing. Listen,o talk about i am a big proponent of 21st century cures. I supported and i voted for it. It is dangerous and as to be looked at. You have the relationship between pharmacies in patients and doctors and patients. When you get into a locked in provision, it is difficult because you need pharmacists. We need pharmacists to participate in this and help us curb this problem. I have seen it ruined families. I have seen a real lives. I have seen it run careers. It is worse than can even be imagined at this point. I know ive gone over and i apologize. Chairman mica thank you. Mr. Connolly. Representative connolly thank you, mr. Chairman. Say, mr. Micah and i had a series of hearings in the Previous Congress on u. S. Drug policy and it included marijuana. It forced me to examine some things that i knew are believed about our drug policy, with respect to marijuana. But what is disturbing to me, if there is a gateway drug to heroine, it is opiate Prescription Drug addiction. Far more than marijuana. This hearing is so timely. Its affecting every community we represent here in this body. A is not a rural phenomena or urban phenomenon or a suburban phenomenon. You, mr. Botticelli, how did we get to this point . I mean, i dont want any doctor to leave a patient pain. Serious pain. You know, its a terrible flexion. Its a terrible affliction. First do no harm. But how do we draw the line justen Pain Management and an unbelievable avalanche of prescriptions for opioids that has now led to an epidemic of it epidemic of addiction in america . With presumably the best of intentions originally. Mr. Botticelli when you look at the roots of this epidemic and the significant drivers, yes, there are other issues going on. It is really the overprescribing of this very addictive pain medication. Representative connolly but how did we get there . Doctors are not stupid people. Mr. Botticelli i think doctors were given a significant amount of misinformation from the pharmaceutical companies in the medication the medical field itself. The scientific evidence, there was this fullcourt press to basically educate physicians and saying that these medications were not very addictive. And at the same time, we had, which i think was a very noble and should be a noble goal, that we should do a better job at a treatment in the unit is its. There are a lot of people who. In the United States. There are a lot of people with significant pain and there is a fullcourt press to treat pain. The v. A. Mention that it is the fifth vital sign. But also talking with prescribers about how addictive these painkillers were. Physicians in the United States get very little training on appropriate prescribing. Veterinarians get more training on prescribing and physicians get no training on Substance Abuse issues. It is a mixture of a whole set of factors that relate drove up addiction and overdose in the United States. And of late, now we have it compounded by heroine. Availability. Representative connolly dr. Wen , what is treatment or the system to recognize summit he has a problem someone has a problem and we need to get them treatment . What is efficacious treatment in trying to turn this around early before they move on to heroine or something worse . it is said that medicine is an art and not really a science because pain is subjective. What is a 10 for you is not the same for somebody else. Tothat is why doctors need understand how to treat individual individual patients and that it is not just about medication. We have to do physical therapy and education. Sometimes pain is ok and we dont have to do everything with a pill. Some pdmps that are some are difficult to use. Representative connolly what is efficacious treatment . What do you recommend . Dr. Wen judicious use of pain medication representative connelly i get that. What about treatment . What is efficacious . What have we learned . We are policymakers up here. We want to solve the problem. We get that part. Point we have got to the where we have an addictive problem and we are trying to avoid prevent a person from going to the heroine part, what works . What works by way of intervention . Recognizing that addiction is a disease and therefore we have to get people into addiction treatment, which is psychosocial counseling and wraparound services. We know that the World Health Organization shows that, for one dollar invested in treatment, that saves 12 for society and that is something we should invest in. Representative connolly thank you. They were quite informative. Chairman mica the gentleman from wisconsin. Grossman ve grothman this isthma an opportunity to learn more about Prescription Drug abuse. It is a great, great summit and i encourage everyone to attend. I think the gentleman for yielding. I have a question. One of the things that bothers me is the legal prescription of opiates. Ive had two minor Health Things in my life in the last two years. Both times, the medical professionals willing to give like a months worth of opiates, for something that had no business under any circumstances prescribing opiates. I will start with mr. Botticelli. Someone is can chime in here. What can we do to stop in these basic things i dont want to embarrass the medical professionals i would say it was par for the course. We are not going to reimburse anythingaid, medicare, else the federal government is for these sort of problems, no matter how much pain you claim you had because people never used to have them even forld perhaps say cms, we are just not going to reimburse across the board or if we are ever going to reimburse, if i friend three days, not this month prescription stuff. I know we can give the medical professionals a lot of little room. We have seen in the past that they will use that little room. Mr. Botticelli youre right. There is room to work with cms and with private insurance as well. I also think we need to continue to focus on mandatory prescriber education. Governmentbig fan of mandates around that, but i do think, again, we really need to educate the medical profession about safe and effective over your prescribing. Representative grothman all you need is a Little Common sense. If we have that many people in the medical field lacking that kind of common sense, we have a bigger problem. Mr. Botticelli i dont think that its common sense. We have the medical profession given the lack of information about the Addictive Properties and a full 4 and a full court press. i cantative grothman believe the medical professionals need training on this. But ok, you say they need training. I want to cover and to the. Enalty thing, mr. Milione that theto me penalties for people who sell heroin is not as high as it should be. Or they are not going to prison as long as possible. One of the problems i have is that a lot of this is local stuff here it is not a federal issue. But i assume we do arrest people. The federal government arrests people who possess heroine or possess heroine enough that you can assume that they are dealing in that drug. Do we arrest people for that . And if we do, what is the recommended sentence . at the federal level and our task forces, we are not focused on drug users or civil possession. Representative grothman if you get someone that has enough heroin that you know that it is not just for personal consumption and you know that they will be selling for summary, what do you do with that person . I give you ai can quick answer like that. It depends on the investigation. Cant give you a quick answer like that. It depends on the investigation. It will be based on the guide is the judge gets. Representative grothman its a very muddy answer. Mr. Milione thats the world we live in. what doative grothman they do in other countries . I toward another country 10 years ago and i asked about the problem. The penalty was shockingly high. I wont say what it was. What do they do in other countries . Say, in Southeast Asia, what kind thats what type of penalties do they had a . Do they hand out . Botticelli i think there is an emerging consensus with the vast majority of countries that we need to continue to focus on enhanced Public Health response. Plays aw enforcement key role for some of our major traffickers, we need to look at and continue to explore alternatives to incarceration. So i think there is a consensus among countries. Representative grothman im well past my time. I would like you to answer my question. I know that there are a lot of people who like this public offi fonts. Thatunder the impression we put people in prison for a reason. Largecountries have very counties and less of an opiate problem. Can you tell me what their . Penalties are . What their penalties are . These are countries that are fairly advanced and have a no. Problem and part of it is that the penalties are pretty dramatic. Do you know it these are, say in places like Southeast Asia . Mr. Botticelli i dont, but i can tell you that Southeast Asia considers labor camps part of their treatment regimen. I wouldnt necessarily. Equate drug policy around there as it relates to the drug problem. Representative lou mr. Botticelli, thank you for your public service. Let me begin by saying that the current heroin and opiate epidemic has some similarity to crack epidemic of the 1980s. Thentunately, our sponsor was to increase prison sentences. Im led to see we are taking a different approach this time in america is starting to realize that drug addiction is primarily a disease. One of the most noticeable differences between the crack epidemic andrack the Opioid Epidemic is that the crack epidemic mostly faced communities of color. Nearly 90 of people who try heroine for the first time in the past decade are white. Does that sound was refer to you . Mr. Botticelli yes. Representative lieu i have an familiesitled white seek gentler war on drugs. They are white and middleclass and the no had to be empowered. They know how to advocate. They have been instrument till in changing the conversation. You said that, correct . Mr. Botticelli correct. Representative lieu i want to make sure that our resources are directed across the country socioeconomicss or race status. How do we match the unique issues facing individual communities . Mr. Botticelli i have been doing this work for the better part of my life. Im glad that come in this country, we are finally at a point where we have acknowledged the disproportionate impact on people of color, poor folks in terms of this issue. And im glad that we are at a different place. Im glad that we have a huge Political Movement that is happening with people around the country to call for a different response. I completely agree. We have to make sure that the policies we are implementing, and lamented are targeting the communities with the miss learning need. On we talk about criminal justice reform, we talk about it for everybody, regardless of color as it relates to this. Our human response to this epidemic needs to be a human response for everybody and not just for the 90 of white people who are affected by this issue. Im glad weve learned a lot over the past four years in response to failed drug policies in the past. Im glad we are at the place where we are finally knowledge and that this is a disease and that we cannot make our jails and prisons are de facto treatment programs for anybody. I feel iger ministers possibility in terms of making sure that we use this moment in time where there is broad is awledgment that this disease and that we cannot arrest and incarcerate, that we implement those policies and programs for everybody. thank youive lieu for that answer. I would like to enter this article. Chairman michael without objection, so ordered. Is anentative lieu there anecdotal story today that marijuana is a gateway drug. Are you familiar with the ticle in Time Magazine marijuana, the myth that will not die . Says that scientists abandoned the idea long ago that marijuana causes users to move on to other drugs. In theident of Medicine National academy of sciences road there is no conclusive evidence that there is a causal link. It is true there is a correlation and this article in the study explains that underage Drinking Alcohol also has a correlation, that those actually typically precede marijuana and gatewaya is rarely the to illicit drug use. That leads to the question why is there a correlation . People are increasingly interested in altering consciousness. If you are a true music fan, you probably will not stick to listening to one band . That doesnt make lullabies a gateway to the grateful dead. That means the people who like music like different songs and groups. Mr. Botticelli i think the evidence is pretty clear that early use of alcohol or tobacco and marijuana, often used together, significantly possibility that someone will develop an addictive disorder later in life. Use,nk that younger people the more the chances grow. I also think the music analogy is kind of inaccurate in the situation. Because early Substance Abuse actually affects brain itpment, not just actually affects Brain Development and predisposes people for more significant vulnerabilities later in their life. You. Sentative lieu thank mr. Chairman, i would like to also enter the article. Representative Lujan Grisham thank you. And statesat cities will continue the debate about gateway drugs. I have participated in many of ,hose discussions about alcohol which is really the foundation for creating an environment where you put yourself more risk. I come from a state that unfortunate has some of the highest drug abuse rates and overdose rates in the country. Mr. Botticelli, i appreciate very much you raising the issue in your testimony and talking about there is now a very direct and specific correlation between the number of prescriptions that have gone up and the number of description drug issues, which we are trying to deal with today. While i would hope that congress undertakes an effort when we are combating the ob problem that we will get drug issues in general and policy in general and certainly continue to debate and justice reforml so that we are focusing on those prevention and effective treatment, which is really the way to get at it. We also want to say that we preach to the panel and the members questions. I am in a state that just pass legislation that would make moloxone available to more than medical providers and prescribers. That we want the means jails and we want First Responders First Responders was debated to include family members and crows in close proximity so we can in ant Overdose Deaths state that has a Republican House and a democratic senate. There was great bipartisan actor effort to recognize that come note can do that and minimize everything else. Finally, potentially a question and may be either director or direct setthis is a of problems. We can get into an argument about how good faith dispensing could be a benefit and access and how overprescribing isnt just the sellers. The manufacturers of this drug. Ave done such a great job but if you cant get back to your physician, you are in the hospital or in the er and you waited 27 hours to be seen, they need to make sure that whatever prescription they are giving you is going to tide you over. The issue is that you have a lot of these patients who have access to the exes medication. Im struck by the by the excess medication. Im struck by the pharmacies who have kiosks and opportunities to get rid of those drugs safely come especially with guests and kids and families and grandkids, which is partly part of the epidemic here. Given the complexities, i want to talk about the Behavioral Health correlation, too. In my state, we have no Behavioral Health infrastructure. I submit to you that it is partially the fault of this administration through cms and hhs. So there is zero treatment available. We have some of the highest , one inverdose rates 500 is going to die of a heroin overdose, huge. And its not new. Ecadesold what are we doing to really create policy that recognizing that Behavioral Health, dual diagnosis and selfmedicating is really also part of this larger problem . Mr. Botticelli ill start. Ofhink there are a number things from a large policy perspective has happened. The Affordable Care act, one of the dramatic reasons that to in 10 people iresentative Lujan Grisham will caution you. The Affordable Care act is the reason that this administration has said that it is ok to cancel the Behavioral Health. You should know that about new mexico. Mr. Botticelli part of the reason that people are not able to access care is the fact that they dont have affordable coverage. We know that from data. The Affordable Care act says a couple of things. One, that Mental Health and Substance Abuse benefits has to be part of any marketplace land. That is huge. There has always been lack of coverage. The second thing it does, to your point, is says to Insurance Companies is you cant discriminate representative Lujan Grisham how are we enforcing that . Access is still a giant issue in my state and in others. We recognize it in policy but what are we doing to make sure it is occurring . And now that medicaid is a , the reality is, if the Insurance Companies are not making it available, then you really dont have access in spite of coverage. Mr. Botticelli i hear that a lot in my travels around the country. One, the federal government can do more around enforcing parity. But state commissioners can also play a pivotal role in this. Play a role to make sure that complaints get to stay insurance commissioners. Inall have a role to play ensuring that we are about to finalize managedcare rules as it comes to parity. epresentative Lujan Grisham im well above my time. Think you for your flexibility of. Gary i want to talk about drug court. But before we get to drug court, would you agree that there are some who traffic in narcotics who themselves are not user . Mr. Milione i would agree. Representative gowdy so drunk were will not be much use for them because so drug court would not be of much use for them because they do not use. Folks who commit folks who use drugs commit elements of violence. Mr. Milione yes. So yountative gowdy have drug dealers who do not using you have drug addicts who 21 not engaged in title [indiscernible] models ofdifferent drug courts. Some you plead guilty and you are sentenced drug court. Time in dickens of a South Carolina of getting criminal Defense Attorneys to plead their clients to drug court, even though it was in the eyes of everyone better for their client who happened to be an addict. It is tougher than probation. So the criminal Defense Attorneys had no interest in that. So how do we devise a plan where youret drug court even if criminal defense attorney doesnt want you to have it . Mr. Milione i dont know if i am the right person to answer that. At the federal level, drug courts is not an option. i want toive gowdy ask you something that might be in your wheelhouse and that would be diversion. You have a background in diversion. Mr. Milione yes. Representative gowdy back in the old days, the standard was, prescribed drugs outside of the course of a professional medical practice, they could be prosecuted themselves. Mr. Milione thats correct. Representative gowdy there was a dip in the number of cases the eea was pursuing from a diversion standpoint. Was that an optical illusion . Or was the dea working more with the pharmaceutical companies . im not aware if you are talking about criminal, im not aware that there was a dip in any criminal numbers as far as criminal prosecutions. Representative gowdy we check that for me . which span were you talking about . Sinceentative gowdy 2010 . That the focus shifted over to pharmaceutical companies. We haveone aggressively gone after where appropriate. There has not been a shift. I will certainly look at those numbers and get back to you on that. Representative gowdy i know it is hard to prosecute doctors. But when you are prescribing medicine without doing an examination, even without so pressure,ecking blood just running a pill mill, with on due respect to my friends the other side, prison might be the right place for those doctors. Mr. Botticelli, what kind of recommend could you for mr. Botticelli i would be happy to work with you. Representative gowdy are you familiar with any Defense Attorneys . Botticelli i am. There has been huge support when it comes to drug court. Im nottative gowdy talking about diversion where you have no record and you actually dont race any consequence. Im talking about pleading guilty and your punishment is drug court as opposed to probation, with probation being much easier than drug court. Are manycelli there drug courts that operate under that model. Again, its gotten wide support among many folks in the criminal justice world. If there are particular folks you would like us to work with injuring more education or on drug courts, what they can do with the various models, we work with the National Association of drug or professionals. I would be happy to work with you. Representative gowdy could i ask one more question . Lets assume you plead guilty to Armed Robbery and your sentence is drug court. How many lapses do you think are appropriate before the actual sentence imposed is carried out . Mr. Botticelli i would have to go back and look at the guidelines. Im sure that that would be interpreted in different ways by different judges. Ifsked the dont know that there is a specific guidance around representative gowdy im talking about s practices. The first offense, the first relapse doesnt make any sense. The hundredth doesnt make any sense either. Botticelli the National Association of drug court does put our guidance. But to your point, i think there is in a dollars meant that many people with Substance Abuse disorders do relapse and we do need to have a good response in terms of that. You are right, people need to be held accountable for their actions as well. So it is a real balance between recognizing relapse and Holding People accountable. Representative gowdy outsell you what ill do than, i will tell you what ill do. I will acknowledge there are relapses. And the next time you get a chance to talk with criminal Defense Attorneys, you tell them that it is overall in their clients benefit to get off drugs and not to get probation. Mr. Botticelli happy to do that. Chairman mica to conclude, we will do a summary round of questions. Representative cummings dr. Wen , one of the things that is so disturbing to me is there are certain areas of baltimore where people are getting methadone see thet and, when you lives of people whose have been destroyed and we see , and i would them say to the gentleman of South Carolina, mr. Gowdy, i would invite you at some point to just come with me to baltimore. When you see the masses of not who are using, it is painful. Those whoat there are are selling drugs that are not using. I agree with you that they are folks who are going out and committing a lot of crime. As a matter of fact, probably most of the crime in baltimore has something to do with drugs in one way or another. But there is also a group of people who are truly addicted and dying in a day. That is major stuff. , think when you see like that the chairman came with me to baltimore and saw what im talking about. We have to get through that. I think there are a lot of remedies to try to address these things. But im definitely not one that wants to be soft on people that are going around and selling death. I said that many times. At the same time, weve got a lot of people who truly are addicted. , where do you and the gentleman from South Carolina made a lot of points where do you draw the line and say, ok, ive got these addicts and some of them are committing crimes how do you and what you think of the methadone treatment . A lot of people question whether you are just keeping people continuing to be addicted to a substance. the first issue is that we know, in baltimore, that there are 20,000 people who use heroine and many more who are addicted to other drugs. And most of the drug arrests that are happening, there are 73,000 arrests that happen in our city every year. And the majority are those who are selling drugs to feed their own addiction. We need to make sure they are getting treatment while they are incarcerated. Cummings mye thing a lot of people dont know about heroin is you can be addicted to heroin for 30 or 40 years. In my right . And still function. Yes, there are some individuals who are high functioning in all walks of life, all professions, while they are addicted to a variety of drugs, including alcohol as well. Imour point to treatment, a doctor and a scientist. I have to point to the evidence. Methadone is the standard of care when it comes to opioid addiction. We need to have increased treatment. It will help to reduce the stigma around addiction. I want to thank you for your leadership in baltimore city. We hope there will be additional funding directed to our cities with the greatest needs. We are on the front lines. We are the ones innovating. And we are the ones he knew the most resources rather than have that Peanut Butter spread evenly across all areas. Callin the notummings sone, have you seen any movement at know a lot of our states and the attorney general is trying to work at have to get the cost back down. Have you seen any movement in that area . Dr. Wen we have not a baltimore city. Last year, we received a generous donation from a Pharmaceutical Company to assist us, but we cannot depend forever on the donation of companies. We have to have a generic medication that is on the World Health Organizations list of Health Medications available to everyone so we can save lives very lives. Representative cummings i want to thank everyone. We have a lot to do. It is a serious problem. We will have to try to hit it from a lot of angles. As chairman mica said, years called the drug subcommittee and we did a lot of work there. We will have to do even more. So i think all of you. Chairman mica ok, mr. Grassley grothman. iveentative grothman only met two people in my life who used heroin in the criminal justice system. Both of them thought they were not addicted. Arrestedople who are with possession are not added to and how many are just people who are social pressure or whatever, want to feel good for the day using heroin . What percentage are seeking treatment and what percentage are people just, like the person who gets drunk driving because they were irresponsible . Esther botticelli i would assume the rates of the nonaddictive heroin use of user is very low because it is highly addictive. Grothman what about the percentage of people who didnt crave it, didnt need it and another was going through depression. And percentage are addicted what percentage are just using it because my buddy was using it at school . Saybotticelli i would probably 5 of people using marijuana have no addiction to it i mean heroine. Grothman that gentleman. Mr. Milione i cannot give you a number. We do not follow that way. Ms. Enomoto we serve tape youll we survey people on how much they used in the last month. I would imagine you find parallel realities. We do not do screening on arrests. We do not have time to do diagnostic on people who are arrested. Grothman do you have an opinion . Ms. Enomoto no. i can give you my perspective as a practicing physician and also experience in baltimore where well over 90 will be individuals who have an addiction. Oine comes from opie and opium and it is one of the more addictive substances in the world. Jones mayor jacobs i dont not have the number. I think that there is some information we could obtain through some databases dealing with people who have been prescribed opioids and have many of them have become addicted. Othman ok, so gr the two people who used heroin and got caught and said they were not craving it and maybe they were just adverse. If i break my arm, just a simple break, do you think under any circumstances, given that they never prescribed a 15 years ago, what percentage of time do you think a doctor should prescribed opiates for a broken arm . Dr. Wen a broken arm is extremely painful. If someone had come to the er with a broken arm, i would give them even iv medications for an opioid. That is a reasonable use for opioid. Rothman anyone g else think we should be prescribing opiates for a broken arm . How about for a week . Mr. Botticelli i can tell you what the cdc guidelines recommend for those situations. Obviously, that is a decision that needs to be made between the patient and the doctor. There should be a conversation to do it. But the cdc guidelines as the lowest possible dose and the shortest representative possible duration. Othman ntative gr politicians are known for not getting straight answers, but go ahead. Anybody else have a stab at this as is it responsible to give opiates for at least a week if i crack my arm . Mayor jacobs i am not a doctor. Brokena child with bones. They have all gone through a lot of surgery. Each time, they have been given opioids and each time i would say it was probably for about a week. I was warned about what to look for in case of addiction. In every case, they were not on opioids for more than 48 hours. We took them off in 48 hours. I can tell you a severe as those injuries were, we weaned him off. I had a severely broken bone in both of my arms, i was off and killers in three days and never on opioids. Anything more than that really needs to be carefully look at. Are you a Health Professional . No. I am a mother of four kids. I could be a Mental Health professional by the time i raised four children. Good. We got one common sense answer and it was not from a Health Professional. Thank you. Thank you. I want to thank all of our panelists and i want to thank my friend from maryland for his gracious invitation which i will take him up on. I would love to go see what is happening in baltimore. I suspect, mr. Chairman, it is at least on a large or larger scale of what was happening in my own hometown when i started a drug court. In addition to that drug court we started a drug court for expectant mothers who are using drugs in the course of their pregnancy. I do believe that getting them off drugs is in the nightly preferable to keeping them out of jail in nonviolent cases. I would also say this to my friend from maryland, there is no joy like going to a Graduation Ceremony for those who have concluded drug court successfully. I have prosecuted i have had people who i prosecuted stop me in the Grocery Store to show me their certificate. And they were prouder of that then anything you or i could have accomplished in the course of our careers. When we open up drug courts, maryland is right. Half of the crime we saw for 16 years, drugs and alcohol were at the root of that. There was one addict in particular, mr. Chairman, who took a hammer to the older couple that lived next to him and beat them. They were in bed, sleep, in the middle of the night. He broken to rob them antibeat them with a hammer to the point they were unrecognizable as humans. That was the pathologists description, not mine. Then he raped the female victim. He was an addict. We are going to have to hold onto those prisons in addition to the drug court. I would be happy to go to maryland with my friend and i would invite him to save peoples lives. I just hope they get off before they do acts of violence against the innocent public, because the addicts sometimes leave a wake of violence and mayhem in the wake of their addiction. I yield back. I want to thank you. I agreed to go to South Carolina. I would be happy too. One thing, mr. Chairman. I agree with you. We have very effective drug courts in maryland. And, i know what you are talking about one of my first cases was a death he tastes. A young man hammered his grandmother to death and he was on drugs. I get to it. I get it. The different categories here of both, i swear, i just wish we could catch them early like you said. These substances are bad. Bad. The thing is trying to figure out a balance. When you figure out the balance, you still find people falling through the cracks. I just have a final thing. We started this three hours ago. 15 people have died from Drug Overdoses. Three of them from heroin. He for the day is over, one hundred 20 americans will die, 24 of them from heroin. We have heard many things touted here today. Some of them have said we just need to put more money in to treat it. Treat and is essential but treatment is at the end of the line. And, you heard a couple comments from the other side of the aisle today that we need to act before we go home at easter and put more money into the heroin and Drug Overdose situation. This is the remarks of senator grassley on the floor. In fact, according to the office of National Drug control policy, the appropriations act passed in december provided more than 400 million in lending specifically to address the Opioid Epidemic. This is in increase of 100 million over the previous year. That is 25 increase. Ok . None of that money, when he said that just a few months ago, has been spent yet. All of that money is available today, is that right push mark or most of it . Tell me most of that money is available today and you would think we were going out of here not providing money. 25 increase. I want this in the record, and put it in the record, too, how much was asked for and how much was appropriated. How much was taken from interdiction and lot enforcement and put into treatment. Ok . This is just the facts. We dont want to deal with the facts but we are going to put this in the records of you can see. There is money there. And, i want a report i want a report, i am telling you, this week, of how much money is spent. And i want that in the record. Ok mr. Botticelli . And i want something from you, too, mr. Direct her of our substance and health abuse office. I want to see how much money is pending and i went to see how much it is by friday. Ok . As i know the money is there. It has not even been distributed. We are not going to play these games, i want the back. We need to stop this stuff at our border. I just challenged our mirror. It is coming in by the boatload across the borders. I have one question, too, i talked about el chapo. The drugs coming across the border like it was a vacation holiday. I was told, speaking of weapons used in most drug offenses, this is murders. In baltimore, they are killing people. In orlando, they are killing them. We kill them in the mall. We kill them on our streets, in our great communities. In our work communities. Most of them are gunned it down and it is related to drug trafficking. Ok, mr. Maloney . And a lot of those are illegal weapons. This morning, el chapo, who was coming back and forth, one of the weapons he had was traced to the fast and the furious. A weapon supplied by the United States government. The principal drug trafficker trafficking across the border like a holiday visit, he had one of the past and furious. Are you aware of that . I am aware from the press report. Can you confirm that for the committee . I would not be in the best position to do that. I want you to check on it for me and let me know, ok . I am very pleased i the people out there, but ive met with some of your people on the prosecutions are not what they should be. You know, you go to singapore and they do not have a treatment program. I want to put you out of this news, dr. Wen. All the treatment programs. I want to put them out of business because our kids and our adult should not have to go to treatment. But we are allowing this to come into the United States. It is offensive. We are killing tens of thousands. Anything else, people would be outrage. Where are you . Just say no and it just say may be . There are consequences. Just saying that okd a difference to our young people. You can tell that i am getting a little hot. The italian comes out of me. I have seen them dying on the streets in baltimore and dying in my community and we need to do something about it. The supply needs to be cut off. Then i can put dr. Wen and others out of business. We will not have to treat people, we will not have the scourge on our streets. This hearing is adjourned. Thank you, witnesses. [gavel] [indiscernible conversation] [indiscernible conversation] [indiscernible conversation] timeok tv is in prime starting monday night. Each will feature a range of topics from medical care to National Security. Plus, encore presentations. Tune into book tv on prime time. Go to book tv. Org for the schedule. Threats tok at National Security at the u. S. Borders. Witnesses include the acting chief of the u. S. Border control, and a law professor talking about a loophole be exploited as some people to gain asylum. This is one hour, 45 minutes. The subcommittee on National Security will come to order. The chair is authorized to declare a recess at any time. The u. S. Faces a wide array of threats at the borders including smuggling drugs and foreign goods. Are busy borders places of every year. Hundreds of millions of lawful travelers entered the country while tens of thousands of illegal cargo are seized and migrants are denied entry. Hundreds of thousands of immigrants evade detection to gain access to the United States unlawfully. Recent terrorist attacks in the United States and europe, and worldwide, have highlighted security challenges we face. The attack in paris transformed europes migration past spurred debate. Yesterdays attacks in brussels demonstrates the strength of the Islamic State and highlights policies of european nations that have facilitated the growth of islamic communities within these countries that are parallel to western society. Concern about borders are not limited to europe. U. S. Customs and Border Protection have been just opted Research Members known by Islamic State. Border security agencies have arrested several somali immigrants who are members of , as well as other somalibased groups, including one funded by osama bin laden. Special interest aliens come from countries with known ties and terrorist groups. Over the past few years, the committee is obtaining information from customs and order control that can confirm thousands of indians, bangladeshi and others have been stopped at our borders. Individuals have saw to enter the u. S. Illegally from afghanistan, pakistan, syria and turkey. Is potential for liability the nations generous asylum system. Claims areng asylum being released into American Society by the Obama Administration. A number of aliens making credible fear claims has increased exponentially. The number of credible fear 4995 inncreased from in 2015. 000 and an increase of 91 . Rating is 87 . By claiming to have a credible is set in motion that allows them to remain in the United States for years. Operatorsrs, cartel and supporters of terrorist the system. Exploit such individuals could enter illegally and evade Border Control and remain in the United States. Can makeet caught they a credible fear claim and be released. During a recent visit to el paso, ice confirmed they are seeing increased numbers of somalis and pakistanis and other nationals from countries of concern coming across the border. These reports are supported by information provided to the committee that says thousands have claimed credible fear in years. For these reasons, has quoted that the border with mexico is the most significant for her ability because it provides tobers from terrorist groups enter the nation, i detected. I think our witnesses for their testimony. I now recognize mr. Lynch, for his opening statements. Thank you. I want to rank the panelists. I would like to thank chairman meetingfor holding this and i would like to thank the witnesses for your expertise in this area. We are witnessing the Largest Global displacement of people since world war ii. Conflict, violence, Human Rights Violations are forcibly moving 60 Million People worldwide. Including 19. 5 million refugees million asylum seekers, a decade ago. The refugee population is made up of children under 18 years old. In 2014, 34,000 psi asylum 34,000 asylum applications were entered, the highest count on record. The war in syria and the rise of the Islamic State have been the driving factors in the surge in global displacement. Than 4 million refugees have left out of the conflict since 2011. The devastating attacks in paris, San Bernardino, beirut and brussels yesterday has led bestlicy debates on how to stop terrorists from infiltrating our immigration process. This is a critical examination that must contain factbased oversight over our border policies. In the interest of national it reflects our National Commitment at the Geneva Convention to protect vulnerable individuals fleeing from persecution and violence. Signed by 22er members, we believe that america can and should provide refuge to those fleeing violence and persecution without compromising the security and safety of our nation. To do otherwise would undermine our core objective. These leaders included general , and the former nato allied commander who is now at test university. Efforts tomittees review the National Security framework, we recently traveled on a mission to turkey and jordan and lebanon to participate in the vetting process required for the refugee entrance to the United States. , we discovered that the vast majority, 80 , they are not interested in resettlement. Instead, they stay in the neighboring host countries in the hopes of returning home. The overwhelming preference is to stay close to syria, indicating that one goal should be to financially strengthened those countries and make sure agencies have the necessary funds to provide a life for the refugee populations in place. Prior to the oversight is it, i had doubts about the effectiveness of vetting conducted in war zone environments and i supported the public and asked democratic measures to enhance the vetting process. In beirut, wehat arrived in istanbul four days after a suicide bombing that killed tourists. And we left before a rocket fired from syria hit a school. For the small percentage of families who seek resettlement, what we found in the vetting centers in all three countries was a multivetted process that is conducted by specialized u. N. And u. S. Trained agencies to ensure that only the most thoroughly vetted and vulnerable, 1 of refugee applicants, are approved for resettlement. Any step in the vetting process could pose a danger to the u. S. Public. It is this type of factbased oversight that should guide the Border Control procedures across the board. This is imperative at a time when federal agencies are responsible for securing Homeland Security with severe budgeting constraints. Mr. Chairman, i thank you again committee. This i yield back the balance of the time. I recognize the chairman of the subcommittee on government operations. Thank you, thank you for your leadership and thank you, mr. Lynch for your factbased willingness to look at the record and also your willingness to work in a bipartisan manner to address this issue. From the surge of unaccompanied minors and family units from central america, a across our borders due to the ongoing , as wellfugee crisis as the visa issued to the San Bernardino terrorist, there seems to be no shortage of immigration issues that impact our National Security. Todays hearing will take a closer look at the National Security implications at our nations borders. I want to emphasize that it is a National Security interest that brings us here today. Of other plenty rhetoric that can go on as it relates to immigration and emigration policy. But this is looking at not only Border Security and how it affects National Security. It has been at the forefront of much of the discussion in recent months. The department of Homeland Security officials have indicated to the public that our borders are more secure today than it has ever been. I think many of us have heard that. It seems to be counterintuitive to me, in fact the Government Accountability office has indicated that the dhs has no toicial metric in place measure whether our border is secure, or not. So those statements are very difficult to comprehend, if there are no matrix in place. From the Border Controls tell us that the situation at the border is exactly the opposite to what the administration points. United states has a proud history of providing victims of persecution and will continue to be unwavering in our commitment to be the beacon of hope for those facing persecution around the world. But when this administration fails to enforce the immigration laws or turns a plan turns a ,lind eye to oversampling thencee fear claims and the integrity of our system is undermined. Our generosity is taken advantage of and National Security is at risk. The protection of our system from fraudulent claims made by those seeking to do us harm. Individuals who seek to defraud the asylum process make a mockery of those who are truly persecuted, for those who are fleeing for fear. The United States is one of the most generous nations in the world and our asylum system is ,n extension of the generosity and various organizations are coaching people to claim credible fear in order to avoid deportation. By invoking the credible fear most aliens and dry process to which they await proceedings before an immigration judge which buys them more time in the United States. It often takes years before those court dates take place. In the meantime, the alien is permit,to obtain a work go about their business in the United States. It seems to me that the word is out that claiming credible fear is the way to go. The numbers say that much to me. As we look at the credible fear claims that have grown , and oneally in years of my biggest concerns is that people have taken advantage of our generosity. Officers they cap claim credible fear to remain here in the United States. With no ties to cartels and terrorist groups have been apprehended along the border claiming credible fear. The data that this committee has received confirms that the Border Patrol is encountering migrants from afghanistan, bangladesh, egypt, iran, iraq, lebanon, pakistan, saudi arabia, somalia and turkey. This is coming across our southern borders. These are just the individuals who were apprehended. So what about all of those who were never seen by Law Enforcement at all and make it into the interior of our country . I hope to hear from our Witnesses Today on their assessment of the current holds that might enable these bad actors to take advantage of our system. Most importantly, i would like to hear what should be done to address these deficiencies, and help ensure the safety of the American Public. Mr. Chairman, i would like to ask unanimous consent to enter into the following documents into the record. One, a u. S. Border patrol nationwide apprehensions for 2015 and 2016. Of the other, the uscis nationality reports for fiscal year 2014, 2015, 2016. And the uscis credible fear data and affirmative asylum case data. Without objection. Mr. Meadows with that, i yield back mr. Chairman. I will hold it open for anyone who wants to have a statement. I am pleased to welcome mr. Ronald vitello, mr. Stephen mccraw, director of texas Public Safety, mr. Brandon judd, professor ting at the Beasley School of law, and senior director of Senior Rights first. All witnesses will be sworn in before they testified. You can please rise and raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear the testimony or about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god . Please be seated. All witnesses answer and affirmative. In order to allow time for discussion, please limit your oral testimony to five minutes. Your entire written statement will be made part of the record. Mr. Vitello, youre up. Five minutes. Mr. Vitiello thank you chairman , and distinguished members of the subcommittee. It is an honor to appear before you today to discuss the role of the United States Border Patrol in defending against threats against our border. During my long force me career more than 30 years in the u. S. Portal, the environment has changed. Not only the incentives, taxes, and capabilities of our adversaries, but also our resources, our capabilities, and or operational approach to securing the border. Today we focus not only on responding to the complex and rapidly changing border conditions, but we also work to decrease the risk and potential threats. We do through strategic deployment of resources, and expanding in increasing our capabilities to intelligence, information sharing, and international collaboration. Land, air, and see, it is crucial to operations. Mobile Service Provides increased awareness of border activity. Increase technology increases our ability to find changes in the border environment, which is important to emerging threats along our borders. Detecting terrorists and taking the weapons will always be a focus priority of our mission. Also, illegal crossborder activity, involving crossborder trafficking of guns, currency, human smuggling, and drugs, pose a continued threat to Border Security and Public Safety. Responding to the continuing flow of alien children and families is also a priority. The Border Regions of the United States are most secure when using a hold government approach. That leverages interdepartmental agencies and international help. We participate in the dhs campaign, and have a leading role in the joint task or sciquest, and integrative operational approach against criminal organizations around the southwest border. We use resources in a collaborative fashion to approach a broad and complex range of threats and challenges including illegal immigration, smuggling drugs, human trafficking, and the threat of terrorist exportation and border vulnerabilities. The creation of a task force is to increase information sharing between federal, state, local, and international Law Enforcement agencies. Improve situational awareness, improve their abilities to counter transnational threats and associated violence. Using a riskbased and Intelligence Driven approach, the Border Patrol, will continue to enhance our efforts and respond to threats and National Security, and ensure the safety of the u. S. Public. The continued focus on unity of effort in conjunction with intelligence and Operational Integration in deployment of advanced technology, enhances our situational awareness, better enables us to effectively and efficiently detect, respond to, and disrupt threats in the nations Border Regions, and approaches to secure the homeland. In closing, let me state the obvious. It is the men and women of cbp and Border Patrol agents that face the threats we will discuss today. They deploy in all manner of weather and rough terrain, all day every day. Im grateful for their professionalism. The nation is safer, and the communities they serve are better protected because of their efforts. They have my unwavering support, and i want them to do their jobs in the safest manner possible. Thank you for having me as a witness today, i look forward to the opportunity to testify. Thank you. Mr. Mccraw, five minutes. Mr. Mcgraw thank you for the opportunity to testify today. I want to echo a few comments the chief made that maybe we missed. Two things. First, mention the governors comments yesterday on the aftermath of the brussels attack , the cowardly attack by terrorists. He pointed out that our hearts and prayers are with the victims, our minds must realize the consequences of open borders, and resolve must be security. Including the governor of the texas state legislature, understand the scope and magnitude of the threat to texas and the rest of the nation. What happened on the texasmexico border does not just affect texas, it affects the entire nation. Whether it is transnational crime or a security threat. We recognize it, it is not a new phenomenon. An fbi agent we learned they were detaining african individuals with known al qaeda presence. It is no question why texans are can concern from a National Security standpoint. There been changes we have seen over the years. Crime is remarkably different, it is more transitory, transnational, organized, discreet. Certainly, it compromises and undermines National Security. From a texas standpoint, it is been very clear in terms of the governor, our state legislature, two things. A sense of urgency and unity of effort. The chief over here, when he was the secretary chief of the rio grande valley, he was a team player. We had unity of effort. Right now, if properly resourced, they have the type of people that can get the job done at the mexican border, and that is important. Our strategic intent that the Texas Department of Public Safety is working with our local and other state partners, and game wardens, will provide direct support to Border Patrol. In the detection, deterrence, in ports of entry. And do so very aggressively. Every day we deploy texas state troopers and rangers and special agents around the state down to the rio grande valley, where right now, is the epicenter of drug and human smuggling into the united date. States, whichited has been our direction and we will continue to do until the border is secure. There are a number of things it certainly can be done if properly resourced, there is no doubt we can get it done. But we need the resources to do that. That concludes my comments at this point. Thank you. Mr. Judd, five minutes. Mr. Judd i appreciate the opportunity to testify on behalf of the agents i represent. I am going to stick to my comments on the National Security threat at the border. Leave out the rhetoric and what might have led to it. What i will tell you, the Obama Administration have repeatedly told the American Public the border is more secure today than it has ever been. As a Border Patrol agent, i will cut you the exact opposite. The commissioner pointed to a decrease in arrests over the past several years, but they failed to give the American Public key indicators, such as the number of arrests, or from countries with known terrorists ties, or those that compete economically with our interest. In all of fiscal year 2015, they arrested five from afghanistan, 57 from pakistan, and hundreds from the republic of china. This year, they arrested 18 from afghanistan. First quarter, five all of last year. First quarter, 18 from afghanistan. Pakistan. 619 from the peoples republic of china. Those numbers at should alarm everyone. And were seeing a trend from albania, bangladesh, and brazil. A single factor from the litmus test is lower numbers, then compared to fiscal year 2015, one must conclude we are failing. As someone who is been involved in detection for more than 15 years, i can tell you the border is not secure, the condition situation is getting worse. Arrests not always factor in whether the border is secure. We have to look at the totality of the situation, such as violence. Evadinger of persons arrest and whether they are turning a profit. We must also look at persons from countries that would do us harm or exploit our weaknesses, policies, or lack of manpower on the border. It is well documented that criminal cartels control the borders the way many inmates control prison facilities. They are organized, and pathologically violent. In mexico, it is estimated that 150,000 people have been killed in cartelrelated violence. They kill police officers, judges, and ordinary civilians that cross their path. This is the opponent they face daily. An opponent who controls all aspects of border crime, including illegal smuggling. One way to know if the cartels are winning, is to analyze arrests. Two weeks ago i was visiting a region, during that week, that i was there, i told of 157 known entries came into United States in that area responsibility. Of those, 54 were arrested, 54 were known to have evaded arrest, 17 were able to evade arrest and make it to mexico, and 12 were still outstanding and unaccounted for. That is a 47 arrest rate, that is not very good. But it is not the agents, we are simply over manned. We dont have the resources necessary. In fact, yesterday i received an email from agent in arizona. That email said that there was a 10 mile stretch for two days, and this is documented on the reports from management. A 10 mile stretch of border, that was unmanned for two whole days. Criminal cartels were able to go to the fence, cut a hole in the fence, drive to vehicles through that hole, and escape. They were then able to put the fence back up and try to hide the cuts they had made. Border patrol agents were able to go down and see the vehicles tracks. There was actually camera the did catch the two vehicles on the border. The tracks clearly indicated it was, and there were no other vehicles coming from east, so it had to be those two vehicles across the border. The scariest part of those vehicles entering into the United States, is that we dont know what was in those vehicles. We have no idea. From those persons able to evade arrest, those 54 and a 12 outstanding, we dont know where they were from. It is unfortunate that we are currently in this situation in which it appears that we invite what we are currently experiencing. And because we are over manned, and it is not that we dont want to manned these areas in arizona , they just did not have the manpower to do it. And that is the unfortunate situation today. I look forward to answering any and all of your questions. Thank you very much. Mr. Ting thank you to the two subcommittee chairman and all the members for inviting us here today. I also share the concerns over the statistical information that the members, particularly mr. Meadows, have referred to here it and i share the concern that mr. Judd has just expressed about the situation at our border. I want to talk about two issues in particular, expedited removal and credible fear, that bear on the concerns that many of us here share. Prior to 1996, we had no expedited and arriving aliens could basically stay for a long time by making an asylum claim. There was an enormous backlog. And they were put in line and released on their own recognizance. There was a 60 minutes, piece that showed people landing at Kennedy Airport every day without documentation and being released into the general population. That pushed congress in 1996 to enact expedited removal, which on its face, provides a way to turn arriving aliens around who lack any documentation. The problem is, as i discussed in my written comments, in one of the classic bipartisan compromises for which congress has alternately praised and condemned, congress enacted expedited removal in a way that provides that, first of all they did two things. They determined that the first interview would be a credible fear interview. And in the end, even know they tried to take the Immigration Judges out as i discussed in my written comments, the Immigration Judges get back into the process anyway. So while it looks good on its face, expedited removal in practice, has not worked up very well, even though it has been expanded, not just to arriving aliens, but within 100 miles of the border. So expedited removal is potentially a useful tool, but it is hobbled by this edible fear determination, and by the ultimate right to delay removal by an appeal to an immigration judge. There are two problems. I talked to my written comments about credible fear, and where did credible fear come from anyway . I have some knowledge of the because i know in 1991 in the midst of the haitian migrant crisis, when we had a lot of haitians headed to the United States, we were in a chaotic situation. We manage that flow, and provided asylum interviews for people. It was very difficult. In fact, we started operating the detention facilities at guantanamo bay. And we invented credible fear on the fly as a way of screening out people who obviously were not entitled to asylum. They could not even present a story, which if true, would entitle them to asylum. We determined that they could be turned around immediately and return to haiti without the fullblown asylum interview. On the other hand, those who could articulate a coherent torry and see incredible, they would be allowed to advance to a fullblown asylum interview, recognizing there was a backlog for that, and would slow the process down. But for those people, they would get the full asylum. As it turns out, that credible fear practice was very shortlived. The numbers werent so enormous, because the numbers were so we could not continue processing migrants from haiti. He determination all be returned to haiti without any processing at all. Obviously, that was challenged by many advocates and when all the way to the Supreme Court of the United States, and the Supreme Court in an 81 decision in a case United States which i cite in my written remarks, the Supreme Court of the United States held that, that was fine. The United States had no obligation under its own laws or International Law to conduct asylum interviews on the high seas. Credible fear was a temporary measure, probably not even necessary. In the end, it only lasted a few months. And i was startled to see credible fear appear in the statute of the United States. Credible fear shows up, where does that come from . While it was invented as a device to screen out migrants, as has been commented on, is being used now as a device to screen people in, so they dont have to actuate or approve their asylum claims. All they have to do is state credible fear, and they are basically in. They join the queue so they can make their claim in proceedings. As we know, that can sometimes take a long time. And the word is out, this is how you do it. Make a good credible fear claim, and you are in. In this age of modern, instantaneous communications, that word spreads quickly. So, i am very concerned about that. I have a number of proposals. I am over time already, but i do want to say, i think we need to train more asylum officers, and immigration officers including Border Patrol agents. And we ought to have them do asylum interviews. I think they should remove credible fear from the statute. It does not belong there. We should go straight to an asylum interview and ought to have enough asylum officers including trained Border Patrol agents and other customs and Border Patrol officers to do that. I have other recommendations, and i refer you to my written comments. Thank you. Thank you. Ms. Acer thank you. It is an honor to be heard today to offer our views regarding National Security at our borders, and the importance to the u. S. Commitment to protect refugees. The terrific terrorist attacks in brussels yesterday are yet another reminder of the harm the terrorists are inflicting on innocent civilians across the world. Human rights first is a Nonprofit Organization with offices in texas, new york, and washington, d. C. We operate one of the largest Pro Bono Legal operation programs for asylumseekers in the country. We are in partnership with lawyers from some of the world leading law firms. Including databases which contain information from various databases. Officers also can do vetting and checks. Theye they can get asylum either have to be interviewed by an asylum officer. Portion seek protection in the United States. The increase in south american claims in the north american triangle have not only affected the United States but the human have seen the number thesylum applications from northern triangle grow to more than 13 times what it was in 2008. Some come from outside this hemisphere. Many of those from refugee hosting states as well as china. U. S. Leadership in protecting refugees advances National Security a foreignpolicy interest. Year, i visited jordan, lebanon and turkey to address the refugee crisis. Severet states are under pressure and as the former ambassador to syria, iraq, and lebanon has explained, advancing security interests by helping protect the stability of a region home to key u. S. Allies. Policies and practices make it hard to distinguish between victims of oppression and the perpetrators of horrific acts. A number of leading his Security Experts have describes, efforts to bar Syrian Refugees are counterproductive as it actually helps the isolate narrative. Cautions, you do not want to play into the narrative of the bad guy. That is giving propaganda to the enemy. Program that edge indicate in a timely and fair manner is essential both for the integrity of the u. S. Immigration process as well as refugees from a place of persecution. Yet, over 480,000 court removal cases have been pending for an average of 667 days in the u. S. Immigration courts with average wait times being three years. We ask for Additional Support for judges and staff to address this backlog. The current asylum system is failing to provide asylum consistent with this countries commitment. Hurdles and complexities have been added to the complexity the asylum system. Cases, over lingering in detention facilities. In our experience, the expedited removal system and the credible fear process, which i think has a 70 8 pass rate is presenting many from applying for asylum. I am happy to answer questions. To navigate this increasingly complicated system, many go without being represented because they cannot afford it. In my testimony i have outlined recommendations and am happy to talk about them. Thank you for the opportunity. The chair recognizes himself. Gave a reportull saying many who represented all shabbat to have been apprehended. Can you explain the aliens, the threat posed, and how the United States is dealing with that population . As previously testified by those from yemen have been coming across the border and are apprehended by texas Border Patrol. The connection to the somalians is an fbi case. It is open Source Information regarding the support of the operation outling of san antonio, bringing them across and helping them resettle. There have been ties we have through terrorism. We are mindful about other aspects. Until we get a handle and our is able tono one cross between the ports on detective, there is no one no way to tell. Is no excuse not to secure the border and this can be done with proper resources applied it absolutely can be done. Made that time, texas has it clear the legislature will spend whatever it takes to support Border Control to get it done because it is too important to texas. Becauseill often say apprehensions are down the borders are more secure. How does that sound to those the Border Control does not see . It does not. Agents there were no agents assigned to where to place. If it was not for a camera that saw the vehicles, we would not know the vehicles had crossed. If we do not have the resources to assigned to a specific area, we do not know what is happening in that area. I would like to correct myself that area was not open for two days, it was open for longer. I do not know how long. It was at least one shift. Sayingeceived reports that lower apprehension numbers are rewarded and when they fall between jurisdictions, those apprehensions are not counted. Have you heard similar reports suggesting the apprehension data maybe fudge . Not only have i heard it, i have seen it. To one of assigned these stations, there were notes that came across from a highranking manager that said, you must remove these numbers from the report because there is no entry point and if there is no entry point, we cannot say where it entered and cannot reconcile the numbers. The question that was both to away,as, we know they got where are we going to report they got away . And he says, if there were no entry point there were no got a ways and we said, but there was a got away. And he said, no entry point and no got away. Ani hear resources are issue. Isnt our policy catch and release . In other words, you can have beefed up Border Patrol but if people know they get across, they are most likely going to begin when a citation be released and then they come back and one year or whatever. A majorhat is still incentive to come illegally. Am i wrong . Are important. S in part you are correct. The del rios sector does not necessarily release a whole lot of illegal aliens because they have immigration customs and foresman will stop they have the bed space to hold onto these people. Is, do we have the space to hold onto these individuals and if we do have the space, then they do hold onto them. If we do not have the space, we release them. That is where the resources come into play. That is where the resources come into play. Claim fearys aliens and have been subject to terrorism bars. Do you think that