Transcripts For CSPAN Key Capitol Hill Hearings 20150414

Economic perspective . Now the state department under Hillary Clintons leadership saw the importance of whats called the diaspora. So i am a member of the jamaican diaspora because i am no longer living in my country. Gepsie is a member of the haitian diaspora living here. The state department under mrs. Clintons leadership has seen the importance of the diaspora and so there has been programs that have been put in place for different members of the diaspora to come together to see how they can benefit their home countries. And as jamaicans we do that, i know the Haitian Community also has a very vibrant diaspora. So thats one way that you can help to stop the pull factor. The push factor, rather. But the pull factor is always going to be there where people are always going to want to come to america because its a shining beacon in the world of everything that you can achieve. And to the young man who missed the daca by 30 days, you certainly wouldve been, you are an example of somebody who wouldve benefited from the president s executive action because the executive action changed the date. It moved it up. [inaudible] you came within the timeframe but you came 30 days to old . Yes. You are really an example of somebody who could use overall Immigration Reform in order to change your status. We have a kid that is your age. Helen to be an unaccompanied minor is a frightening experience. Even though you are a young man, your journey may not have been an easy one, we do not know. I can only imagine if you do not have family here how difficult it is to be able to face the trials and tribulations of coming to a different country that is foreign on multiple levels, it is frightening. Part of the problem of trying to assist with unaccompanied minors, particularly the many who are under the age of 12, is who propelled them to come here . Are they really unaccompanied . Do they have parents that are here . Many of them are not going to court. It is a very complex system but there is something that i find interesting and we danced a little over the 2016 president ial election and something that i find gratifying is that two possible republican candidates from florida talk marco rubio and jeb bush, have talked about understanding the opportunities and if they were in similar situations they would do the same thing and for the benefit of their families would come over here and break the law. The struggle is that there is the misunderstanding of breaking the law as if all laws are felonies and they are not. Being here illegally is a civil offense and it is not a felony. But unfortunately there is a huge misunderstanding given that issue. Marco rubio gets heckled a lot and criticized a lot because she was on the forefront of Immigration Reform and then he pushed back because you did not like the bill at the end of it. He does not get the credit for bringing it forward and having it approved and he does not get credit then after for trying to walk it back. But i will tell you something about marco rubio and that is that before the president , six months before the president did different action, i called his office and i asked if i could take a number of undocumented students to him so that he could get a sense of who they were and speak to them and see if there was something we could do with Immigration Reform. And he accepted and there were maybe eight or nine students who went. Some gave full names and some only gave a first name because they were mistrustful. And senator rubio was only in office six months or so, maybe less, and he had a very frank conversation with the students about what could be done and what could not be done. He allowed them approximately a two hour meeting, allowed them to speak about what the experience was about. They asked, if we are legalized, i think they spoke about legalization but it was met but it was not just deportation. What does that imply . Do we get Social Security numbers and a drivers license . What happened to parents was a big concern, will they be kept whole . It was a fascinating process and it started what i think is an important conversation. Gabby was a part of that group and she was one of the leaders that really started the dream act from miamidade college. In that conversation, it was obvious that gabby, because of her age, was not going to be included in what was being proposed and aged out for daca as well. So you are not alone in missing it because of age, but that is not to say that you cannot contribute and i wanted you to know that. I find it ironic that we struggle with this conversation today and yet, tell me if this isnt strange . We are allowing people to pay for visas to come in here. We have even dropped the threshold. Im not saying having half a Million Dollars is easy, but if you have 500,000, you can come into miami and you can promise five jobs. You dont have to prove them. We have people here that deserve the right to not fear deportation. It is not a right to not fear deportation but deserve the benefit to be here and to not fear deportation. Archbishop Thomas Wenski we need Immigration Reform, comprehensive Immigration Reform. We should not give up on this congress. We have to keep on asking people in this congress. And i think that daca will, on the table. The judge put out a stay but that could be overruled. It could take time. When it gets overruled, then it will be in effect and this time right now for those that could be beneficiaries of it, it is time for them to gather up documentation. There is going to be a lot of paperwork, rent receipts, things the lawyers will be asking. And you should save up your money because the u. S. Government will charge you 500 to partake in that. And a lawyer might ask you for a few dollars more. [laughter] archbishop Thomas Wenski for those who are potential beneficiaries of this bandaid and it is only a bandaid to start preparing written documentation and money to participate in it in the eventuality of the stay being overturned. In the meantime, we all have to work for comprehensive Immigration Reform not only for the beneficiaries but for everybody like our friend here. Jorge duany i think we have time for a couple more questions. Anybody else . I am a professor in the English Department and i have a question. Everything you are saying is important and pertinent for questions. Media is important and law is important and communal activism is important. But i have not heard one element that i think might also be of significant importance and that is education. We are talking about putting a face to the problem, but who talks about people here . You talk about the laws, different procedures, a lot of technical things which are very important, i do not deny the significance. But how about education . Is there a role for education to play in advancing the cause you have so elegantly advocated . Thank you. Helen ag. Irre ferre i would say education has been at the forefront of this discussion. Educational institutions have been the primary proponents of the dream act. To show you how complicated it is, we did not get the state tuition waiver, our form of the dream act, until last year. It was absolutely astounding, a state where the hispanic population is so significant. It has been there but for some reason or another, educational institutions push for so many things, at the end of the day they end up pulling back on some things because they have, in legislatures, budget interests that they need to push more strongly than other issues. I would say that education has been at the forefront as has been hospitals. Archbishop Thomas Wenski and the human faces, i see them in pews every sunday and you see them in the desks every day. That is the human face. Education, like the church, can put a human face on this issue because we are not talking about statistics, we are talking about human beings, men, women, and children, whose futures are affected by a broken system. Somebody said, as i like to say, Immigration Law is not criminal law, it is civil law, so it is not a criminal offense, it is a civil offense. Call undocumented aliens lawbreakers is a bit of a misnomer. In that reality, they are not breaking the law as much as the law is breaking them. That is why the law is unjust and has to be changed. Dahlia walkerhuntington the panel that is being done, i want to say thank you for providing us the opportunity by hosting this panel. This can just be one of many that is held. Certainly, there is a certain amount of fear in the community. You talked about some of the students not giving their last name. There is this fear of deportation that is very real. From time to time, washington will send an email. A reporter is doing a story and they want to see a particular person who fits this demographic and you cannot find anybody because nobody wants to come forward to put a face on it so that becomes difficult. Helen Aguirre Ferre two years ago, the feds would come in and clear everybody out. We did not have this fear 10 years ago. Dahlia walkerhuntington the fear was always there. Archbishop Thomas Wenski it is not just a fair because in the past six years more people have been deported than in the past 19 years. 15 years. Gepsie metellus to address another issue of your comment, i think in the Advocacy Community we need to step up the education through creating opportunities to share the Success Stories on the one hand. And on the other to remind american brothers and sisters and our country of history and heritage as a land of immigrants, a land whose riches we all enjoy and benefit from today. Created and built upon continuously by immigrants. Yes, we have a lot more work to do in terms of community education. Helen Aguirre Ferre youre absolutely right about that. And just a thought to throw out there, it will be interesting to see if jeb bush runs for president , he married a mexican and he did peace corps. He met her in mexico city. It will be interesting to see how that plays. I was fascinated to see how we presented at cpac, the conservative pac in the Republican Party. 25 or 30 people walked out but the rest stayed and he got applause. And he had been proImmigration Reform. That to me says something that i think we have reached the Tipping Point and things are beginning to change in this country but that needs political will. I will tell you something, a couple of weeks ago, what did john boehner do . He passed the Homeland Security bill. He said, forget the hasstert view. Lets vote up or down and it passed. The world as we know it, continued. And i think that is a lesson that maybe others are going to notice, that the bread continues to be sliced. Dahlia walkerhuntington it is interesting that you talked about jeb bush because his name cannot you mentioned in conjunction with that cannot be mentioned in conjunction with his run for presidency without knowing how his immigration is going to fall out. I would hope he would step up to the plate and that is a problem that people have with politicians in general and marco rubio in particular. Because of his wishywashy, i introduced the bill that i am not going to back it and you are not coming up with an alternative and not your hands off as though your family came over on the mayflower. It is a problem. If politicians will stand up for what they believe in, people will have more respect for them. I certainly would respect to jeb bush if he stepped up to the plate. I am not going to vote for him but i would certainly respect him for stepping up and taking on immigration. Archbishop Thomas Wenski they say that making laws is like making sausage. Not a pretty process. But i think there has got to be a way to clear the logjam. I do not think the Republican Party is completely restrictionist. There are certainly some restrictionists in the party strong antiimmigration. There are some on the democratic side as well. I think we have to deal with the good angels on everybodys side and remind people that politics is a noble vocation and it is about the common good. And one of the areas that touches on the common good of everyone in this country today is our broken immigration system, and it needs to be fixed. Jorge duany thank you to a wonderful panel and thank you all for being here. [applause] jorge duany and good afternoon. Tuesday at 2 15 p. M. , the rein Nuclear Agreement act. On cspan3. During this month cspan is pleased to present the entries in this years student cam documentary competition. Student cam encourages middle and High School Students to think critically about issues that affect the nation. Students were asked the three branches and you to tell a story that demonstrates how a policy law, or action has affected you or your community. Paul levin haley ally lee, haley leavenns and clare pene. They focused on the issue of same sex marriage. Hi. We live in oregon where same sex marriage is legal. I really love the fact that leah will have two parents that are married. I think it is important for children to see that in their lifetime. It truly does feel like we are solid. Not that we wrpt solid before, but we are truly a recognized family. Same sex marriage is legal in 35 states. 15 do not. In seven of those states, same sex marriage laws have been overturned. These states include missouri, texas. Completely against are alabama georgia, louisiana north dakota south dakota, tennessee and nebraska. 36 states have made same sex marriage legal. One of the arguments against same sex marriage is religion. That god says he doesnt like it. That it may lead to other nontraditional marriages, and that same sex marriage threatens their lives and relationships. If you belong to a religion that doesnt accept same sex marriage you have a right to belong to that organization and hold that religious view, but that doesnt mean that other people have to adhere to your particular religious view. Religious institutions can discriminate. They are allowed to decide as an institution who is going to be a member, who is going to be eligible. They get to decide. They always get to decide the religious definition of marriage separate of that state. Thats who they are. Thats who god made them to be. The big difference between matrimony and civil unions is matrimony receives both state and civil benefits whereas civil union only receives state benefits. Matrimony also receives much higher praise than criffle unions do. Than civil unions do. There are over 1,000 protections that civil unions dont get and domestic partners dont get that are in marriage laws. I dont think civil laws are appropriate, constitutional, or respectable. Ive never been in favor of civil unions. I dont think there should be a distinction between marriage and Something Else between two people who are committed and who love each other. One is for straight couples and we have this lesser marriage for you people. If you are going to present benefits to another group and deny benefits to another group, you need to have a good reason to do that. The government has said we dont really have a reason for that. The reason is traditional and morality, two reasons the law cannot get into making decision based on. About two million l same sex couples have had children, so that means two million families that are not equal under the law to other families. It is about not just the financial rights they get, but more importantly, that the law is supportive to families to get to saying, we have the same recognition as other families instead of this idea that were in a different status. For children, i think there is a lot of advantage, not just a legal advantage, but sort of a social structure of knowing we feel like a complete family. We are recognized as a complete family in our community. I think thats really important. Some people believe that families should have one scommom one dad where they can have a family where two men and two women cannot. It has always been my version of normal. We have never known any other kind of family. I felt we had a normal family. It is not traditional. But there are very few traditional families. I didnt have a dad. Im sure people with dads have great relationships growing up with their father that are probably a little different than experiences with mothers. I didnt have those. At the same time i have a totally different thing, and i wouldnt change it. Legalizing gay marriage would help our economy by boosting tax revenues, helping cities economies, it would make creating laws about relationships easier, and would help economics. I think anyone who ask can contribute to the economy, and if we can make aamerica stronger and provide more opportunity for people, thats a good thing. They contribute to society, and should be entitled to the same benefits. Here are a few opinions on the topic. It is an important social commitment in our culture. I think social commitments are important. I think when we commit to a community or a cause or a church or a person who is a more solid human being because they have made a commitment. I think those commitments are important, and marriage certainly falls within that. I think every society must recognize the rights of each individual. That means it is very important. When you are talking about law and fairness you have to actually recognize it is the glue that puts this country together, that holds it together. That we are all treated equally. It is very important toward finding a constitutional right to same sex marriage. We are much more accepting of each other as time goes on. It is a different world today. To watch all these videos and learn more about our competition, go to cspan. Org and click on student cam. Also tell us what you think about these issues on facebook and twitter. On our next washington journal well get an update on the president ial race. We will be joined by shira center and catherine lucey. President obama will talk to former u. S. Ambassador to iraq Christopher Hill about relations between the two countries. You can join the conversation on facebook and twitter. Were you a fan of cspans first ladies series . First ladies is now a book. Looking inside the personal life of every first lady in american history. Bhaced on original interviews with more than 50 preeminent bog fers learn about what biographers. The book first ladies, president ial historians on the lives of 45 iconic american women, provide insight into these women that survived the scrutiny of the white house sometimes at great personal cost while supporting their husbands. Cspans first ladies is an entertaining and inspiring read and is now available through your fafrlte bookstore or online book seller. Next, two v. A. Doctors testify about some of the retaliation they face after becoming wiffle blowers whistle blowers at the federal affairs department. Congressman mike kaughman chairs this meeting of the house subcommittee meeting. Congressman mike coffman i would like to ask that be allowed to join us as she has been active in the case of one of our witnesses here today. Seeing no objection, additionally, i would like to ask unanimous consent that three statements be admitted into the hearing record. Two from whistle blowers and one from the project on government oversight. Hearing no objections, so ordered. The hearing will focus on the treatment of whistle blowers within the department of veterans affairs. Particularly the types and levels of retaliation they experience when reporting problems. This will serve as a followup to the hearing conducted by the committee on july in july 2014 where we will address what progress the department has made to correct its retaliatory culture and fail to protect conscientious employees. The three whistle blowers well hear from today come from v. A. Facilities across the area. The hostility they receive for their behavior shows that the retaliatory culture is still very alive ask well in the department of veterans affairs. The truth of the matter is the Congress Needs whistle blowers to help identify problems on the ground in order to remain properly informed for the development of an effective legislation. For example, the National Wait time scandal that this committee revealed just over a year ago which resulted in the secretary of the department resigning simply would not have occurred without responsible v. A. Employees stepping ready to fix problems. In the year since that came to light a new secretary has come to the department and stayed one of his primary missions is to end whistle blower retaliation in the v. A. Jeff miller introduced legislation that would improve legislation to whistle blowers within the v. A. And discourage supervisors and other employees byism posing more strenuous penalties foreign gauging in retaliation. You should not be working for v. A. And you certainly should not receive a bonus for your despicable actions. To that end i encourage members in support of h. R. 571 retaliation prevention act. Along with the whistle blowers here today well hear from the office of special counsel regarding the efforts v. A. Has made since our last hearing and where improvements remain absent and needed. I was very pleased to learn that the office of special counsel recently took action on behalf of a whistle blower in the v. A. From the eastern colorado healthcare system. This employee was removed from her nursing duties and assigned to a windowless basement after reporting the misconduct of a coworker. Thanks to the efforts of o. S. C. , this whistle blower has returned to her nursing duties at an another clinic while her reprisal claims are being invest guyed. Theyll also be here to address why whistle blowers continue to have their livelihood jeopardized. I look forward to the discussion well have here today on this important issue. With that, i now yield the Ranking Member custer for any opening remarks she may have. Thank you mr. Chairman. The Sub Committee is holding a followup hearing to the hearing that our full Committee Held last july. I believe that some of the most effective hearings this Sub Committee holds are followup hearings. They that is the core of our work here to identify problems and Work Together to fix them. And ensure the highest quality of care is being delivered to every veteran. Todays hearing will focus on the treatment on whistle blowers who play a crucial role in ensuring theyre held accountable for providing quality care for the nations veterans. They were drews mental in helping this committee uncover the wrong doing in phoenix, arizona, which helped enform or drafting of the choice acts. In addition, the v. A. And the o. F. C. Have implemented and expedited the review process for whistle blower retaliation plans. Im please to hear the v. A. Have taken steps moving forward but there are too many problems regarding how the v. A. Treat and handles whistle blowers. O. S. C. Is responsible for whistle blower complaints from all across the federal government yet 40 close to half of its incoming cases in 2015 will be filed by v. A. Employees. O. S. C. Reports that the new number remains overwhelming. And its monthly intake of new v. A. Whistle blower cases remains high at a rate of nearly 150 above historic levels they include include encloseers to fraud and abuse. The large number of complaints received is to some extent a reflection of the size of the v. A. But it also raises serious red flags as to the continuing problems that are systemic throughout the v. A. s system and the treatment of v. A. Employees. The o. S. C. Testimony highlights some troubling concerns they investigate the whistle blowers themselves rather than investigating allegations raised by the whistle blowers. They also reference several cases where the medical records were improperly and unlawfully accessed in what seems to be attempts to discredit some whistle blowers. As a New York Times article last year outlined there an is a culture of silence and intimidation and a history of retaliation at the v. A. According to the whistle blowers testifying before us this afternoon, this is still the case for us today. Theyll testify about this environment of intimidation and retaliation in order to silence whistle blowers. I believe that the v. A. Has made progress but clearly more remains to be done. V. A. s culture of retaliation and intimidation did not happen overnight but a combination of decades of problems that are deeply engrained in the v. A. System. We must also not forget they are involved in healthcare an industry that is intolerant of whistle blowers. This culture cannot be changed overnight but the sake of our veterans and the sake of ensuring that the v. A. Is finding the highest quality of care this the culture must be changed. Its the lack of accountable and the absence of collaborative spirit to in order to seriously address whistle blower complaints. This afternoon let us begin the process of identifying what steps the v. A. Needs to take Going Forward as the v. A. Works toward the secretarys goal of sustainable accountability. All v. A. Employees are working toward the common goal of helping and serving our veterans. Mr. Chairman i thank you for holding this hearing and before i yield back i want to take a moment and thank our whistle blowers for appearing before us today. It takes real courage to put your careers at risk for coming toward and calling attention to these problems and concerns. Its my hope we move forward creating a culture at the v. A. That welcomes is whistle blowers and acknowledges your portions in better serving our veterans. I hope that the v. A. Will be known as an organization that welcomes and encourages all employees to Work Together to solve problems. And i yield back. Host thank you reigning member custer. I ask that all members waive opening remarks. I invite first and only panel. On the panel we hear from director of the v. A. s office of accountability review and the honor honorable and chief of staff legal and Quality Assurance for the greatest los angeles v. A. Healthcare system and dr. Marilyn hooker m. D. Neurologist and president a. F. G. And mr. Richard truemain. V. A. Exists to serve veterans. That Service Takes place through interactions between veterans and frontline v. A employees. Doctors and nurses, claims processers and cemetery workers and countsless others upon whom v. A. Depends to serve veterans with the dignity compassion and dedication they deserve. We depend on the same employees to have the moral courage by helping to make our processes and policies together. The departments responsibility to protect whistle blowers is an integral part of our objectsation to provide safe, high quality healthcare and other benefits to veterans in legally compliant and fiscally responsible ways. It is important to keep in mind that the underlying purpose of the whistle blower protection rules is to encourage candid disclosure of information. So problems can be identified and corrected. V. Aplt is fully committed to correcting problems and ensuring fair treatment for employees who bring problems to light. Secretary mcdonald talks frequently about his vision of sustainable accountability. We need a Work Environment in which all participants to top v. A. Officials tpraoerly share what they know whether good news or bad for the benefit of veterans and as good stewards of the taxpayers money. To reach these goals the department has taken several important steps. Last summer, the secretary reorganized and assigned new leadership to the v. A. Office of the medical inspector which investigates disclosures related to patient care. They also established my office to ensure leader accountable for serious misconduct. In addition to its on going work investigating leader misconduct o. A. R. Is working to improve the ability. V. A. Has also improved its khraeub collaboration. That certification reflects the departments commitment to educating employees and supervisors about the whistle blower protection rules. The v. A. Has also negotiated with o. F. C. And expedited process to speed corrected action for those experiencing retaliation. We are also working with o. F. C. To create a robust knew face to face Training Program so they understand their roles and responsibilities under the protection rules. Since secretary mcdo notnald was con tkeurpld they met with whistle blowers across the system and engaged with those who raised their voices to propose solutions. They do that both to acknowledge the Critical Role whistle blowers play in improving the programs and to model to supervisors throughout the engaged open and accepting behavior they expect them to exhibit. They have identified problems v. A. Needs to address. Last month i had the opportunity to appear before the Sub Committee to provide the departments views including two to whistle blowers. At that time i acknowledged and i reiterate that the Department Still has work to do to ensure that all digs khroerz received prompt attention and protected from retaliation. Not withstanding significant efforts on our part v. A. Is still working toward the full culture change we must achieve to ensure all feel safe and any supervisor who retal late is held accountable. On behalf of the Department Im committed to continue to work with o. F. C. And this committee to get things right. Im honored that they have asked me to assist them in this critical effort. This concludes my testimony. I look forward to answering any questions you may have. Thank you, chairman coffman and members of the Sub Committee. Thank you for the opportunity to to testify about the special counsel and our on going work with whistle blowers. Last july i spoke to this about their early efforts about the unprecedented increase in whistle blower cases from the v. A. Since then there has been substantial progress. For example, they started an expedited process. This process has resulted in relief for many whistle blowers including landmark settlements on behalf of phoenix v. A. Employees. In total, they have secured relief for over 45 v. A. Whistle blowers and putting courageous Public Servants back on the job. These sentl settlements are accepting messages if they report problems theyll be protected from retaliation. In my earlier testimony i also addressed several Serious Problems with investigations by the v. A. s office of medical inspector or o. M. I. And in response to my concerns, this review that is led to positive change. A recent whistle blower case is tkepldemonstrative demonstrative. In response to the referral the medical inspector determined that the beckly facility was trying to save money guy substituting medications with older and cheaper drugs. They were made over the objections of Mental Health providers. This was a clear violation of v. A. Policies. O. M. I. Investigation called for review of all patients who were impacted to determine if there was any harm caused by the subs stews. They also recommended the discipline be considered for beckly leadership and others who were responsible. While the facts are very troubling, the omi responses and sign of progress from where we were just nine months ago n an organization the size of a v. A. Problems are bound to occur. Therefore there its critical when they identify problems they are addressed swiftly and responsibly. Properly functioned omi is key to doing so. Finally since last year the v. A. Became the first Cabinet Level Department to complete them. In addition to fulfilling the basic Certification Requirements theyre work to conduct training for supervisors. Its not consistently filtered down to the regional facilities. So additional training for regional employees may help address this issue. I want to close by flagging 1edation natural and on going area of concern. Often where whistle blower comes forward with an issue of real importance, the v. A. s investigation focused on the whistle blower instead of their disclosure disclosure. There are two main problems with this approach. First by focusing on the whistle blower, they may not receive the attention that it deserves. Second instead of creating a welcoming environment, it could chill whistle blowing and their own actions might come under intense scrutiny. The v. A. s focus should be Holding Accountable those who are responsible and not going after whistle blowers. We looked forward with working with the v. A. And committee to address this issue. We appreciate the committees on going attention to the issues we raised. I thank you for the opportunity to testified to and i look forward to your questions. Thank you. Doctor, you are recognize for five minutes. Thank you, mr. Coffman and all other members for inviting me again to i think a very important meeting. Since my last testimony july 2014, when i returned back to west l. A. V. A. Hospital in my position as associate director, my leadership my direct leader was essentially resigned resigned basically was assigned to a chief of staff outside of West Los Angeles to long beach hospital, who ive never met and still have never met. I started to notice that my patience were reassigned mid therapy to other surgeons. When i asked this, the chief of staff said, if you dont like it, take it to congress. There is nothing they can do to me. I reported the statement to congress and also the office of special counsel. Following that, i was presented to go into the operating room when i had a patient under anesthesia. I was told my credentials had been revoked to go in the operating room. When i asked that an hour later they were told, oops, we made a mistake. Its okay. Unfortunately veterans and other hospital officials overheard that conversation. I have essentially been removed from my office in the chief of staff suite and transferred to the fourth floor. The cleaning crew told me they believe it used to be a nursing storage unit. There is a hole in the floor and non functional along with some of the other equipment in the room. A group of the general a piece of plastic was placed over the floor and janitorial other employees have reported that it seemed to be more of an investigation into me than my actual complaints. When the v. A. Submitted Court Records saying the meaning i was removed from a chain of command was because i testified in congress. Theres a sworn affidavit that said i questioned her authority and thats why i was transferred out of the chief of staff offices because i questioned her authority in congress. I dont remember actually mentioning donnas name personally during my original testimony. Through all of this i have always placed veterans ahead of of me essentially and today we should focus on the veterans. Because of the way i was brought up, i will always take a stand for this population. You remember i made reference to the email in november 2012, thats part of the packet i committed where i questioned the irregularities of the counsel. I also noted there is a number of patience and the number of colon cancers that were entering the system but later appearing with advanced cancer. I did this as a team player asking for a briefing to all of the chief of staff. I was rebuffed. I want to go on the record to be more specific. I witnessed the did he lesion of 179 consults. Two, the systemic did he lesion of the consults most of them were done by nonmedical staff. Three, i witnessed 40,000 consults. The other thing i want to go on record when i realized it was probably result me in losing my job but i think the veterans deserve better. 25,000 was given to our v. A. Where is it . It was reported that it was given. Could you review that number with us again. Im sorry 25 million was appropriated to our hospital to improve access for veterans. Thank you. Doctor. Thank you for the opportunity to speak on continued whistle blower retaliation. My written statement outlines the type and extensive reprisal against federal employees that continues. Retaliation is destructive and costly to our nation in so many ways and too convenient to be used without fear of consequences. When they sound alarm its for the safety and well being of the veterans we serve. My written statements speaks as a house divided with power and resources for the v. A. Itself gained at the expense of Care Provision to the veterans we serve. For example, i had the honor of meeting an 88yearold world war ii veteran several weeks ago. He aryedrived in an electric wheelchair as he was unable to walk. Same for the loss of his left arm and hand and right shoulder. He was unable to see to his right eye due to glaucoma. He was living at the ymca. Thats all he could afford 500 a month special security. He was sent to the y as an answer to homelessness. Years ago he could have called our facilities extended care section his home. But due to yearly mandates reducing the beds earmarked for extended air if favor of more rapid turnover and hence more billables and collections this 88yearold warld war two veteran was sent to live in the ymca ymca. Who is community is the Community Living center and what type of living is being provided. True to world war ii vet generation he believed a bed must be needed for someone in worse shape than he. He had no what do we look at when we evaluate success . If expediency the only measure . What is the most important thing . There is a spirit that enters the body at birth and ace area that leaves at death. Our nation was founded ons airport. On air it. On spirit. When the day come to the v. A. Must they have their spirit crushed . Rep. Coffman thank you. You have five minutes. Mr. Tresmaine thank you. I am here with you today to testify about the unacceptable vicious, ongoing retaliation against our Health Care System where the director became the first Senior Executive Service Member in history fired for neglect of duty. The chief of staff under investigation was on paid leave for six months. The disingenuous claims of improvement there remains an atmosphere of retaliation. We were to seasoned and experienced too seasoned and experienced. We i didnt of wide manipulations and illegal higher her we [indiscernible] fraud and breakdown of human resources, we quickly concluded he would not support our efforts to whole stuff accountable. Staff accountable. We were forwarded emails. Alerting him to critical manipulations from the staff position. Publicly claiming to no prior knowledge of no scheduling manipulations and we became concerned about his integrity. On june 11, we raised it. We also informed we had been contacted by representative martha roby about her facetoface. Immediately after, the severe retaliation escalated exponentially for we later learn it was because about talton t o talton. From june 24, i sent a plea about violent outburst in management mismanagement about talton. I was forced on the campus by order of Robin Jackson. I was devastated to realize i had been betrayed. I was removed from my leadership responsibility and prevented by talton and jackson and humiliating all employee emails. He promised he would immediately be in effect if needed to help us bring four days earlier, he had chartered a factfinding about allegations by talton and jackson. It was chaired by a subordinate as a result, they requested an aib without specific charges. It was conducted by aor. Instead requesting additional testimony citing a new allegation by a Union President thus extending the investigation. One of the members, sitting director was a former subordinate. Incredulously during my first year, id been under investigations for the render five out of 365 day 305 out of the render 65 days per it is difficult to describe a 365 days. It is difficult to describe. Major reorganization and without my input. My direct reports i was excluded from key information. Blocked from critical horse on major, when i asked for the assessment done before i write he told me if you want to see it, requested through a freedom of information act. A detailed they detailed the doctor out for 90 days. I speak to you with a heavy heart disgusted by the continued coverup and Discrediting Campaign to open an investigation by the v. A. Ive always loved serving and being a part of area so many employees are monitoring and hope leadership at all levels demonstrate a commitment to true excellence and transversely by creating an environment free from whistleblower reprisal. If the actions against a dedicated veteran executive and a brilliant terror woman executive both who have committed their lives it will most certainly have a Chilling Effect on any other of those 74. Of those stepping forward. We both fear a further loss of our reputations. We sat in disbelief a year ago and agreed that moment in time we do not have a choice because it was more important to protect our veterans than protecting either one of our careers. We respectfully request you immediately address whistleblower retaliation that has become rampant in our v. A. Thank you for your commitment to our veterans and im available to its are any questions. Rep. Coffman thank you for your testimony. As a combat veteran, my heart goes out to you. You are waiting for our nations veterans. I would like to ask the whistleblowers a question first or all three of you, to your knowledge, has there been any disciplinary action taken to those who have intentionally created kind of hostile workplace that you testified today in terms of retaliation against you . Start with mr. Tresmaine. Mr. Tresmaine there has been none. Dr. Hooker none. Dr. Head none. Rep. Coffman ms. Lerner, if you look at the number of cases from the v. A. That have gone before the usc compared to other agencies of the federal government, it seems substantially higher. A civil comparison would be to the department of defense. I believe it is the number of Civil Servant employees and yet there are more cases. Last year, that came forward from that of armor of veteran affairs that the department of defense. Can you explain just the nature of the volume of cases from the v. A. . Ms. Lerner we do get more retaliation claims is cases that any other federal agency and other department. The numbers are increasing. Just for comparison, the complaints we get from the v. A. Are higher than the dod which has doubled the number of employees. So we know that people come forward when they feel that they have to to protect the life of a veterans or the health and safety and so the fact that people are coming forward is a very positive sign. While the numbers are bad and are increasing, i personally am encouraged that more people are coming forward. We need to know when the problem exist. And so, i am encouraged that people feel confident that they will get some relief when they come to our agency and get some results. The number one reason whistleblowers come forward is they feel an obligation. The number of a reason they do not come forward is they feel like they will not get a result, nothing will happen. It is a double edge sword. We are not happy the numbers are increasing and our staff is overwhelmed by the word. On the other hand, were glad they feel comfort and coveted coming to us. Ms. Flanz i would add go what echo what ms. Lerner said. People feel comfortable raising disclosures whether to members of the committee or rep. Coffman i think they are willing to take a risk. Ms. Lerner i would agree with that. The whistleblowers left come forward today to provide their stories, it is an act of cour age. Something we need to celebrate because disclosures about problems give us an opportunity to fix them. If we do not learn about them were not able to improve. To ms. Lerners point, we do need to to understand what it is that is driving these numbers continuing to drive these numbers and be able careful not to assume good or bad things about the numbers. The fact people are coming forward with a concert is an indicator with concerns is an indicator. The fact that they are bringing them forward it means we have the opportunity to identify the problems. Rep. Coffman can you comment give me some idea, we had testimony from the witnesses here that are whistleblowers that in no disciplinary action has been taken a guess at those who retaliated against them. Can you give me any data in terms of actions that the v. A. Has taken in terms of disciplining those who have retaliated against our whistleblowers . Ms. Flanz absolutely. I cannot speak to the cases of the individuals here. Tell from my colleagues at the office of special counsel. Their issues are pending. We currently have in my office 80 Ongoing Investigations of which 15 involve among other things whistleblower retaliation. We keep a database of employee disciplinary actions taken across the department until the late summer of last year we do not have any particular database that show discipline across the v. A. We have begun to collect and that data. Among the things that go into the database are general descriptions of the charges that are used to support the discipline. One of the charges is something having to do with prohibited Personnel Practices. A generic term that includes whistleblower retaliation. Another type of charge is retaliation. Information that i have is that ended the approximately one year we have been collecting information and we have 22 actions in our database that include charges of prohibiting Personnel Practices or retaliation. It is not a large enough number. I will say that now. We have more work to ensure individuals who have retaliated against whistleblowers as ms. Lerner and her staff bring cases to us to provide corrective remedies to the employees who have been subjected to retaliation rep. Coffman i am running over my time. It seems like such a typical hearing. You are giving us a great news. We have three individuals who have testified and not testified before. No disciplinary action is taken against those retaliating against them. That situation remains unchanged. Ranking member kuster. Rep. Kuster thank you, mr. Chairman. I want to address my remarks to ms. Lerner and i want to thank the whistleblowers for bringing your individual cases and encourage you to work with our good colleagues. Representative roby is on the case with you mr. Tresmaine and encourage you to work with the office of special counsel as well to make sure that you get the protection you deserve. And we do not have any other tragedies. Chris absolutely. It has been a lifeline. Working throughout this ordeal for the past year has made a huge difference. I do not think there is any question. They are totally understaffed. The opportunities ive had to speak with them made a huge difference. Rep. Kuster good and i hope your situation will get resolved. It sounds like we have 45 settlements of whistleblower cases which hopefully did bring some relief to those people and i know there been reinstatement with back pay and such and it is important to send that signal to others. One of the issues i wanted to get at is the issue of the v. A. Culture and because it seems to me that in the idea it has gone to the osc is a recognition that this issue has blown up to a place where it was not resolved at a lower level. I want to make sure that we have a collaborative workplace throughout the agency. I did note of the charges we received, the top agencies providing case were, it is true that the v. A. Is higher than the dod. What is interesting for me and i did i know if they get the desk for the camera, the v. A. And dod are right at the top. Then it drops dramatically down for any other agency in the cabinet. And im curious about sort of the hierarchical nature and structure of those organizations and whether it is a greater challenge to change the environment. I am a so curious and this is to ms. Flanz what steps are being taken to foster a more collaborative workplace . I will combine this with my followup question. We hear about steps taken here in the dce for improvement but how what are the specific steps that are being taken to improve the a culture and ensure accountability on the frontline . Stepbystep with the people can protect the lives of these whistleblowers and protect the quality of service of all veterans . Ms. Flanz i want to speak to both of those questions. One with respect to improving the culture at the front line across the v. A. System. The veteran Health Administration has an office called the National Center for development. That office is looking at an issue of Psychological Safety and how Psychological Safety can be improved in v. A. Workplace. It is a larger term of which protecting whistleblowers is a component. He had all the National Center for Organizational Development speaks in terms of 4 cornerstones of the culture that is required to ensure that patient care is provided in an environment in which people feel safe and the workplace is as we want it to be. Those 4 cornerstones are transparency, accountability Psychological Safety, and risktaking and innovation. They need to be in balance. Transparency perhaps is stressed above all other things. You may get people feeling less they and or less willing to involve in risktaking and innovation. If accountability is overstressed you may sacrifice other issues. The experts are focusing on tools for employees and supervisors across the v. A. System to improve Psychological Safety within the framework of those cornerstones. With respect to accountability for whistleblower retaliation we are working on a number of things. First, we need to capture the attention to understanding of Medical Center directors Regional Office directors and Regional Council at the facility level. Ms. Lerners staff are coming to get a Training Program to our Regional Council coming to town later this month. We will address them and begin with some training, new training we will rollout to supervisors. Training regional attorneys and hr from the facility level and having them serve as the trainers. We need to get at 2 things. Make sure the environment in the workplace is appropriately safe and we need to improve understanding on the part of supervisors and attorneys as to the ramifications for retaliation. Rep. Kuster thank you very much. Rep. Coffman the story emerged about the wait time scandal in the phoenix v. A. , how many since that time, how many disciplinary actions have been taken against those who have retaliated against whistleblowers . How many kfed and finalized . Ms. Flanz the numbers i brought i did not break down by month. Rep. Coffman utahs only about pending cases, how many cases have been finalized where those who retaliated against whistleblowers . Ms. Flanz i am aware of three. The numbers from the facility level are kept in our database and i would love to provide you specifics which i do not have to my fingertips. Rep. Coffman youre here to testify on the congress and you do not have specifics . Ms. Flanz i have the specifics i have rep. Coffman how convenient. I was ask you on the record to submit. Dr. Head thank you. I am frustrated by this. You testify you are not familiar with his case . Ms. Flanz i am not free to speak to the specifics. Are you familiar with all the cases in your department . Ms. Flanz those that involve senior members. Are there other active cases . Ms. Flanz we have 80. Some allegation of retaliation. How many have you closed within the past year . Ms. Flanz we have been operating since july of 2013 and with closed dozens. Only three of those dozens have disciplinary, is that what i am to understand . Ms. Flanz each result in a finding that the alleged misconduct could be substantiated or a recommendation around discipline. Let me ask you about ms. Lerners written testimony. Theyre all types of cases specific cases are the people involved do you get involved in the discipline of the person who did the retaliating against the whistleblower a you are mainly concerned that the whistleblower is restored, is that correct . Ms. Lerner it is a relief for the whistleblower. Rep. Benishek do you report to ms. Flanzs department . Ms. Lerner we are working to expedite the identification of cases where it is appropriate. I want to mention we know all 40 disciplinary actions against employees who were complicit in their wrongdoing identified by whistleblowers. On the disclosure side where people cant toss and make the disclosure of health and safety problems, it is part of our review on the agency and we look at what there taken disciplinary actions. On that par we know of at least . 40 40. Rep. Benishek you are only aware of three cases. Three cases of disciplinary action being taken amongst the case. It seems surprising especially in view of dr. Head was here last summer. And still under investigation. Mr. Tresmaine seems like he is under quite a bit of distress. Let me ask dr. Head what have you been doing in the last since your testimony here . What actions have you taken . It seems i you are still having trouble . Dr. Head i continue to report each and every event. You know rep. Benishek is anybody coming to you from ms. Flanzs department asking what is going on . Dr. Hooker the office of special counsel has communicated with us. Rep. Benishek did the office of accountability review talk with you . Dr. Head they have but it has been disappointing. Rep. Benishek mr. Tresmaine, i heard you testify you made contact with ms. Lerners department, is there anybody else you have talked to . Mr. Tresmaine no, sir other than the aib after about six i want to say 12 or 13 hours of grilling over 2 days i am sorry, three days. Rep. Benishek they were talking to you. Mr. Tresmaine they were not talking, they were grilling. They were investigating. And i told them i clearly thought it was a sham and i expressed it on numerous occasions during the investigation. One of the most interesting questions, the questions they wanted asked or answered the most dealt with the fact that i identified a vehicle that was driving on a friday night at 8 30 in the evening did not have any tell lights on it at all. I stopped in the vehicle and notify the driver there were not any tell lies before they got on a dark highway. And then the next monday i and part about what the vehicle was doing at 8 30 because would have feel close destroyed by staff and used to take staff to crack houses. I had a concern about why it was out. The oar and aib investigation was more concerned why i stopped the vehicle. When i said maybe it is a good samaritan, all three of the members advise me they would never have done anything like that. I thought it was incredulous. They questioned me why i questioned the employee on monday without a union representative. I told them, im still number two in the organization and i felt i had responsibility to ask what the vehicle was doing at 8 30 p. M. At night. That was my rep. Benishek i am out of time here. Thank you. I always felt that a lot of time these investigations are more about us and not the facts of what we have complained about. And my experience is very similar to that. I will try to organize this. I am at a loss. For words. First of all, i do not understand your attitude ms. Flanz the fact you can sit in there and come with literally no information and you cannot answer a question with any specificity is very disturbing. So i do not understand how any, the 2 of you, ms. Flanz and ms. Lerner can say theres been progress when we have ms. Lerner saying she attributes the increase of complaints to the fact people are feeling more comfortable coming forward. At the same time that ms. Flanz is admitting that there has been literally no accountability on the part of the people retaliating against whistleblowers. Can either one of you explain that conundrum to me . Ms. Flanz i would like to try. We are committed to ensuring that supervisors who retaliate against whistleblowers are held accountable. Let me stop right there. It seems to me that maybe it is my prosecutorial background, if you want to send a message that road doors will be held accountable you actually have to hold at least one accountable. If you look at the numbers of complaints, they far outweigh any level of accountability. Please explain that. Ms. Flanz again, i would like to very much. We have Ongoing Investigations right now that will provide as the evidence necessary to hold employeessupervisors accountable. Until recently, we have not had the collaboration with ose that we have now that allows us the evidence that they have pulled together to give a jumpstart so we do not have to start fresh with our investigation. We will whenever the evidence shows that retaliation has been engaged in. Rep. Rice will hold people accountable. Let me ask you this. Why is that the determination of the whistleblower was not giving Accurate Information . It is a much easier determination to make them retaliation against a whistleblower. What i am hearing from the three whistleblowers is that if you guys have no problem saying this whistleblower was wrong but you have no ability to hold a wrongdoer accountable. Explain that. Ms. Flanz with all do respect, that is not how the process works. Rep. Rice no, no. I have to stop you. This is a simple question. Why is it youre able to come to the conclusion that whistleblowers have made allegations that were not based in fact and you could do that pretty expeditiously it seems to me. And you cant do as expeditious an investigation when it comes to holding the retaliate or against the was laura accountable. Guess what . The numbers support what i am saying. You can give whatever as nation you want, but i am telling you right now, the level of disrespect that you are showing to the veterans. By the way, and we know allegations are true in terms of treatment, ms. Treatment of patients, the list, a luxury list of stuff we know is going on. Everybody knows. You are telling me you are spending all of this time trying to hold somebody accountable. Forget about what is happening about fixing the problem where veterans are not getting the services they need. Just another disturbing the. Thats almost an afterthought to you. Disturbing thing. I cannot hear and estimation that includes some kind of, well believe me. I am a lawyer. I get to the Ongoing Investigation is a convenient way of getting out of answering. I apologize. My blood is boiling. This is a disgrace. Please give me a succinct answer. Why is it that it is easier for you to come to the determination that whistleblowers are wrong before you can in a faster way you can say these retaliate ors are wrong . Retaliate ors are wrong hold one rick talley retaliate orfiring them. Ms. Flanz it has to do with the burden of proof. What to show the preponderance of evidence supports. Rep. Rice i get the burden thing. Thats why you shall more people working on it. This system is not going to get fixed a you can tell about we change the culture here and it is so much better. If retaliators are not held accountable, thats the bottom line. Rep. Roe thank you. The direction i want to go is with dr. Head and mr. Tresmaine and dr. Hooker. When you make an allegation obviously, you are not a team player right there. What is it to lead me to believe you are not just an incompetent employee . You are a troublemaker and you do not want to work with the team. We have all been on the team before, what is to make me because ive seen this happen before where how do i know dr. Head is a very good dr. . He may not be good at we move them off somewhere. Essentially move you out of Clinical Care just to get you out of the way. It is hard to protect your reputation if you have two or three or four senior people ahead of you making those allegations. How do you protect yourself from that . To follow on ms. Rices statement . Dr. Head my reputation speaks for itself and my education and expertise in track record speaks for self. I have never had a lawsuit filed against me. Ive never had a level three complaints filed against me until i testified in congress. Rep. Roe i am being facetious. Dr. Head i understand. As a whole world needs to understand. I am a team player. I have followed the chain of command. Every allegation of malfeasance the problems with the wait times , suggesting perhaps that the medical stop should staff should review record and nonmedical as were teasing rather than students should be doing. It is common though as i said before, what is the first thing they do . They take the whistleblower and they isolate them. Second, they defame them. Third, they push them out. What they have them isolated and defamed, they try to go back and rewrite history as the just something they have done to cause the action against them. And then they send out their surrogates usually not trained professionals to suggest that perhaps that person is a bad person. Not a good doctor. My strength comes from my patients. I get much more out of seeing you then i give you. I do my best every day of the week to make sure that i give them the best care possible. The mistake i made initially during this process was allow them to push me out of here. I am stronger now only because i have insisted and i fight to see as many veterans as possible. Rep. Roe the problem is when you stick your head out. It is easier to keep your head down. Stick your head up and speak out you get a lot at rose. The point is that people shooting arrows do not have any going back there way. Mr. Tresmaine you come into a new shop in working in there and see issues and pointed him out. And what happens you become the problem. Mr. Tresmaine yes, sir. With a 24 point five years of the experience at two different facilities and nothing less than an outstanding rating, after arriving in Central Alabama, it really quickly we discovered and i discovered and then simultaneously the assistant director, we started comparing to know a little bit. We both realized we were team players and we wouldve done anything on the team that was going to fix things. I promise you we were never built the wrong team. The team that disrespect or harms veterans. Im a veteran myself. I come from a family of veterans. I have my son here who will more likely be in air force veteran. If he wants to go surf, i will support him. I want to make sure she walks into az 8, 80 v. A. Across this nation. The moment he crossed the threshold, he should be treated with dignity. It should not be a matter of which team are you on . Theres only 1 the right team. We realized the wrong team was in place and we tried our best to help that team to reenergize that team. As it turned out, that team did not want to be helped. They wanted to protect themselves. Neither dr. Muse or i would give up the fight. Rep. Roe thank you, the three of you for being here and speaking doubt. I think it will help other people around the country to have the courage to stick their head up. I yield back. Rep. Coffman thank you. Mr. Waltz you are recognized. Rep. Waltz the v. A. Can not provide the best care if there is a coulter of fear. Since i have been here and im somewhat biased, this idea of coulter is never far from us. It is difficult. A week or so ago, we were on a field hearing on this very issue of over prescription of opiates and a whistleblower if you will, Christopher Kirkpatrick was one of the people who brought into peoples attention. He was backed up by this. We have another whistleblower out to their whose medical record, a veteran, was looked into with a very clear example of trying to find a Mental Health issue to discredit them. It is so despicable because the very stigmas we are trying to overcome among Mental Health is used against the people were talking about it. This is a cancer and i know the attempt and im grateful that we start to bring into light. In so many of these cases, the difficulties to overcome and i think ms. Rice was hitting on it. We understand you have to make a case a you cannot accuse people and there is safety and collective bargaining that makes sense. I will come back to that. Thank goodness for dr. Hooker and the local 342 for providing democracy where management cannot run rock shock over employees. This issue seems to me and i know it runs deeper than you at the table. I looked up in the dictionary, looked a whistleblower. You know the synonyms are . But trader betrayer, narc. This is hard. What you 2 are doing is more important to make sure the integrity is there. I went through the list and im grateful it appears we are starting to get justice for the whistleblowers. Thats one piece. The accountability piece, the thing that troubles me in the nine cases you listed, i may be wrong because they are summaries for it only appears that charles led to changes to how business was done in a hydration practice that was wrong. Am i wrong to assume . My concern is is threefold. Justice, accountability, and improved quality. When you adjudicate these things, all you gave them back is what they shouldve had. You do not get a pat on the back for doing the right thing. We paid them back the music the money because you fired them incorrectly. Maybe were talking to the wrong people for implementation of the changes. Are we seeing true change in your mind or are we just going through the motions and paying people back pay and never shouldve been taken away in the first place . It is the taxpayer that settles when they do this wrong. Ms. Flanz we are seeing changes. Not as profoundly as we should. We are seeing changes. The office of the medical inspector when they go out to investigate disclosure that comes to us through ms. Lerners office if asked to do with patient care, the recommendation in close not just it includes not Just Protection for the individual but substantive change around whatever the problem is that was disclosed. Added the department have an obligation to provide the information about what it is going to do and provide updates toward the corruption of the problem. Absolutely, it is fundamental. That is what the process is about. Ms. Lerner culture change requires many elements. This is not a problem that just developed overnight. It has been around for a long time. Here are things we see that makes a difference in changing the culture. You have to have a message from the top. Leadership has to be very strong. Some of the things was seen like secretary mcdonald meeting with whistleblowers. Rep. Walz this troubles me is was secretary shinseki unethical . Did you get the impression he did not care about this or those that came before him . Ms. Lerner i think a lot of the props under secretary shinsekis term was at the office of medical inspector was doing nothing when they found a problem. When there was a disclosure, the office would say an incident and maybe the whistleblower is wrong that is very different now. The office of medical inspector is different. After our report, the office of medical inspector was changed around. Though person was heading get left. We are seeing a change in the types of investigations they are doing, including disciplinary actions. Rep. Walz my time is up. I would like to have the other three address that. I think that is fundamental. If it is made a significant change. That is an important piece. Rep. Coffman you are recognized for five minutes. Chris i appreciate you holding this hearing and i wish you were not necessary. I wish listing the types of changes that we wouldnt be sitting here. I want to follow up on what thing that was just mention and i think it was the travel by the secretary and other top of v. A. Leaders. This can be a question for ms. Flanz as she makes reference to visiting with whistleblowers. Has the current secretary visited the l. A. Facility . Did he meet with the doctor . Ms. Lerner i do not know. Dr. Head i was prevented from meeting with the secretary. I was told my id badge was there was a problem with my badge. I went to human resources. Rep. Huelskamp say that again . Dr. Head i was told you had to have an updated card and mine had expired and i would not be allowed to see the secretary. Rep. Huelskamp did that happen when you were before the Congressional Committee . Dr. Head it could have. I was instructed to get that taken care of. I went to human resources. When i went to resolve the issue which was resolved they instructed me that a block had been placed in my id and they had a problem with the block. I was called saying you could meet with the secretary now. Dr. Norman has said is not a sorry to have an updated card. The problem is the secretary just finished his presentation. Rep. Huelskamp very troubling. Ms. Flanz any response . You made the claim this a very public whistleblower. Dr. Head put his reputation on the line and very courageous, very public. Was he not searched out to less solve this problem . Ms. Flanz i was not consulted for it if i had been, i would want to intervene. The secretary makes a point to model the behavior in all supervisors. I am sorry dr. Head was not able to meet with him. I know that conversation would have been of use. Rep. Huelskamp are there any other whistleblowers . You made is that he would like to me with the whistleblowers, in others he skipped . How many times has he met with whistleblowers . Ms. Flanz it is my understanding he seeks them out. Rep. Huelskamp except for dr. Head . Ms. Flanz it is the first time ive heard of this. Rep. Huelskamp when you make statements for the record, this pretty certain. I want to the firm correctly earlier that no v. A. Supervisors have been fired for retaliation against was a blowers . Ms. Flanz that is not correct. Rep. Huelskamp how many . Ms. Flanz they fall in the jurisdiction in my office which a look at senior managers. I cannot speak of the photos below that level. We have been involved in recommending termination for three individuals. It included whistleblower retaliation. Rep. Huelskamp they have been terminated . Ms. Flanz yes. Rep. Huelskamp the second question. Maybe have the names of those . Ms. Flanz not in this public forum, but i would be happy to provide them. Rep. Huelskamp followup all medical records. You made a reference in your written testimony that perhaps supervisors or others have access to medical records to whistleblowers to discredit them. Can you describe that . I am astonished that would actually be occurring in the v. A. Ms. Lerner we have raised sorry. We have raised some the concerts with eva and the v. A. And ig. We are seeing a pattern of not just accessing medical records but opening things for like hippa violations, relative minor violations that become the focus rather than the underlying focus that the whistleblower came forward with. That is problematic. One of them is the underlying disclosure and it has a Chilling Effect on other whistleblowers and so we are rep. Huelskamp hippa violation by the v. A. Retaliating against the whistleblower . Ms. Lerner it is all of those things. Rep. Huelskamp medical records of whistleblowers being accessed, that has occurred . Do you have any idea roughly of how many times . Ms. Lerner i dont have the number. I can find out. We have cases that involve improper access to the whistleblowers medical records. A lot of people who work at the v. A. Get their care for the v. A. So their medical records are there. Rep. Huelskamp are the exempt from hippa . Ms. Lerner i dont know. Rep. Huelskamp what is the penalty for inappropriately accessing whistleblower medical records . Ms. Flanz there is a range of penalties and in each case we have to look and see if the individual acts test a business reason to do so. I am also deeply troubled by this. We see it far more often than you would expect. I do not know if that is because of so many of our employees are veterans who receive their care at v. A. Facilities for it is deeply troubling. Rep. Huelskamp my idea for penalty for that would be immediate dismissal. I yield back. Rep. Coffman ms. Robie, your recognize. Rep. Roby thank you for the invitation to join you. I do not center your committee but i said on the appropriations subcommittee and mr. Tresmaine is my constituent. To choose understatements, first to say these people are coming forward shows there are issues that need some attention as well as saying we hear over and over that you cannot change a culture overnight. It has been a year. It has been almost a year since mr. Tresmaine and i had our first conversation. We are tired of hearing you cannot change this culture. It has not been overnight. It has been a year. Here we are today. Mr. Tresmaine i was traveling up here today and i was taking about us being in this room together today and how significant that is and i just want to thank you for you being willing to tell the truth when no one else was. For you to step forward to reveal the horrible circumstances in montgomery, tuskegee, just says a lot about who you are. I want to thank you many times. I want to take this opportunity today publicly to thank mr. Tresmaine and the other whistleblowers who are here who i do not know but i appreciate your courage. Thank you to mr. Tresmaine. We uncovered layers of scandal. Thousands of missing xrays. Manipulated medical records as mr. Tresmaine referenced dva employee who took a recovering veteran to a crack house and only took a year and a half even though the administration knew it had happened. It took a year and a half for the individual to be fired. The culture we are talking about a here a year later with taken a step backward in an ap article showed that montgomery and tuskegee, the hospitals mr. Tresmaine that mr. Tresmaine work that where number one and number two were the worst in the country. There is a new scam. Lets scheduled appointment within the timeframe but we will cancel 30 minutes before and reschedule it. It is on the books. It looks is though the v. A. Is doing what they are supposed to. By the way, if they come in, i learned last week, if a Mental Health patient comes in and asks the scene as a walkin they only get reimbursed for half of their travel expenses. Otherwise as an appointment holder, which by the way canceled 30 minutes prior this is the kind of stuff we are hearing directly from veterans. I have to tell you nothing has improved. We have taken steps backward. Mr. Tresmaine, thank you for being here. I want to ask you because of asked nicely for a year and all apologies, im a little over being nice at this point. How often, mr. Tresmaine did a professional staff member from the secretary of the v. A. Office here in washington sit in your regularly scheduled staff meeting . Zero. Senator shelby from alabama and myself sent a letter that we wanted washington v. A. To come down in oversee what was happening in Central Alabama v. A. Has to there been any presence from the national v. A. In Central Alabama . Direct link to the secretarys office here in washington to oversee in the last six months . Ok. Has the secretary and other top leadership here in washington shown a direct interest in investment in correcting the problems . Would you say that washington the following through with his promise to directly oversee the overhaul in cabinet . Mr. Savage wasnt the visiting director and mr. Chapter jackson is the acting director after mr. Talton was remote. Mr. Tresmaine he was placed there by dr. Savagery when dr. Talton was fired, Robin Jackson came in as the director. Again, i pointed out i thought rep. Roby im a visitor so i have to be careful not to violate your rules all five minutes. Ms. Flanz was in the room with me and the deputy secretary when i asked mr. Savage to be in the same investigation that mr. Tres maine. Mr. Savage was the first fired against the law this Congress Passed in august. Mr. Savage quietly retired one week ago. Thank you for letting me be here. Thank you to mr. Tresmaine. I cannot tell you how much i appreciate your courage and your willingness to help get this right. Rep. Coffman i think your passion speaks for itself. When i mentioned about being on the right team, theres no question our representative martha roby has been advocate. Web not seen the likes of. Thank you so much for that. We have not seen the likes of. Rep. Kuster a brief followup along the lines of representative rice and i want to ask ms. Lerner is procedural but i think it will get an important point. You talked about the office of medical inspector doing a more proactive or interactive followup to the recommendation and you mentioned including disciplinary action and that seems to be what is hanging over this hearing. Our disappointment that it sounds as though it is more rigorous investigation of the whistleblower then those who have been standing behind retaliation. To me and i think this what representative rice is getting cap, if you want to change culture, you have to change the view not just a first step that we would take care of whistleblowers and treat them fairly. But something will actually happen to those who retaliated against. I am an attorney as well in understand the burden of proof. Can you follow up with this . Maybe we do not have the right witness in terms of the medical a office of medical examiner. Can we ask for data that may be available . Ms. Flanz i think there are 2 ms. Lerner i think there are 2 different processes. One of the things we look at when we decide whether the office of medical inspectors is adequate before we report it have they taken appropriate corrective measures . Has relief it is not really retaliation investigation. Where we are seeing the problem with rotarian with tori investigation is with the ig and Regional Council the problem is that when someone comes forward with the disclosure, and then an investigation is often opened up into their own behavior. We can protect them from retaliation if they come for but the office of medical inspector is look at the underlying disclosure. Rep. Kuster then theres a procedure because my colleague talked about you need to deal with protecting the whistleblower and making the long term changes for the health and wellbeing of the veteran. I want to get at the crux of the matter. Who is investigating the retaliatory action and what is the Disciplinary Procedure for that person . Do you follow me . Ms. Lerner when somebody makes a disclosure, they have a number of options. They can go to the accountability and review or the ig or ose or congress for if they experience retaliation, we can open up an investigation or within use our process to get relief very quickly for them. We have been able to get relief quickly rep. Kuster you are still to our relief to protect them. Keep going on the track, what is the procedure for disciplinary proceeding to set the example . That is half of what criminal Justice System is all about part of what an employee Justice System is about. To set this example, here were modeling the behavior of this collaborative approach. Over here, we do not want this to happen. Sending somebody to an office with a hole in the floor. Sending somebody to an office with no windows. These are things that are not tolerable and we will demonstrate to all of the other employees by saying, that person was led to go. They didnt uphold the spirit we hold dear in our workplace. Ms. Lerner disciplinary action is key to accountability, there is no question in terms of changing a culture you have to hold people accountable. It deters future violation. Our primary focus has been making the whistleblower back. We have 130 employees and we have to prioritize, but what we do