>> we move on to the commission of investigation report. to be cut -- cases of dec. 2010. >> i moved a motion. the revelations of the report have brought the vatican to an unprecedented juncture. it is fair to say that after the reports, ireland is>> in a moment, ireland's prime -- for the first time in his country, a reported child sexual abuse exposes an attempt to frustrate an inquiry into a democratic republic as little as two years ago. not three decades ago. in doing so, the report excavates the dysfunction, the disconnection, the elitism, the dominant culture of the vatican today. the rape and torture of children were downplayed or managed to uphold the privacy of the institution, its power, it's standing, and reputation. far from evidence of humiliation and betrayal, the vatican's reaction was to look at these situations with the eye of and lawyer. this position is the polar opposite of the compassion upon which the roman church was founded. the radicalism, and the compassion, which are the essence of a foundation and purpose. the behavior was a case of -- except in despair instance nothing is further from the tree. revelations are heartbreaking. it describes how many victims continue to live in the small towns and parishes in which they were reared ended which they were abused. their abuser often stood in the area and still held in high regard by their families and communities. the abusers continued to officiate at family weddings and funerals. in one case, the abuser even officiated at the victim's own wedding. there is little that i or anyone else can say to comfort that victim or others. however much we want to. we can and do recognize the bravery and courage of all of the victims who told their stories to the commission. it would take a long time for klein to recover from the horrors, it could take a lifetime to pick up the pieces of the shattered existence if ever they do. a day after the publication of the archbishop was clear on two things, the gravity of the actions and ireland's rejection of that power. they undertook to present a report to the vatican. the government's awais the response. i believe the irish people, including the very many faithful catholics who, like me, have been shocked and dismayed by the repeated failings of church authorities to fess up to what is required but is deserved. the day except, indoors, and require compliance by all church authorities with the obligations to report all cases of suspected abuse whether current or historic to the state authorities in line with the force of law. clericalism has rendered some of the brightest and much popular men unable to address the horrors in the reports. this clericalism must be devastating for good priests, some of the mold, others struggling to keep their humanity and sanity as they work hard to be the keepers of the goodness within their parishes and communities and the condition of the human heart. thankfully, this is not over. this is the republic of ireland 2011. the republic of applause, rights and responsibilities. of proper civic order where the arrogance of a particular version of a particular kind of morality will no longer be tolerated or ignored. as a practicing catholic, i do not say any of this easily. growing up, and ems learned we were part of the pilgrim church. today that church needs to be a panic and church. a church truly and deeply pennington for the horrors it perpetrated and hid and denied. in the name of god, work for the good of the institution. when i set up legislation to put children first, those who have been abused might take small -- some small comfort in knowing they belong to a nation, to a democracy, whose power and rights and responsibilities are enshrined and enacted always for their dead. with their love as citizens of this country will always supercede canon law and -- in the affairs of this country. this report tells this a tale of a brazen disregard for protecting chongjin. if we do not respond appropriately as a state, we will have to prepare ourselves for more reports like this. i agree with the bishop that the church needs to publish any other and all other reports like this as soon as possible. the commission is positive about the work of the national board for safeguarding children, established by the church to oversee the operation. the commission notes that all church authorities are required to sign a contract with the national board, agreeing to the standards and the toes refusing to sign would be named in the annual report. progress has been in no small measure to the commitment of others. there is some small comfort by the people of klein by the fact that the commissioners made by the diocese. in training, in the vetting personnel, and the risk management -- management of priests. nevertheless, the behavior of this bishop show how fragile even good standards and policies are to the weakness and willful disregard of those who fail to give the priority to safeguarding our children. if the vatican is to get its house in order, so does the state. in a report, it is critical of the unsatisfactory position in which the last government allowed to persist in many years the bickering between the minister for children over the statutory palate -- policies to do legislation to enable the exchange of soft information as promised after the first inquiry and the long period of confusion and responsibility for child protection as reported by the commission. these are not acceptable to me nor in a society which values children and safety. for too long, ireland has neglected some of its children. just last week, we saw a case of a torture of children. just two days ago, we're ripostes by the story of a sex offender and school take character -- care taker. it raises questions and issues of serious import for state agencies. we are set to embark on a course of action to ensure the state is doing all of it -- all the can to safeguard children. the minister is bringing forward legislation to make it an offense to withhold information related to crimes against children and vulnerable adults. at long last, to allow for the exchange of soft information on abuses. i want to do all i can to protect the space of childhood. restore its innocence. especially our young teenagers. regardless of our current crisis, the children of this country are, and always will be, our most precious possession of all. safeguarding their integrity and their innocence must be a national priority. that is why i undertook to create a cabinet ministry for children and youth affairs. the legislation children first proposes to give our children maximum protection and security without intruding on the hectic business of being a child. joseph pratt sr. -- ratzsinger said these things cannot be applied to the church. as the holy see considers its response, i want to make a clear that when it comes to the protection of the children of this stage, the standards of conduct which the church inappropriate to itself cannot and will not be applied to the workings of democracy and civil society. not purely or simply or otherwise because children have to be, and will be, put first. >> i call and deputy beyond. -- on deputy leon. >> it is appropriate to the motion aside by group leaders. the only acceptable reaction is a unity between us to condemn the actions it exposes, support to the victims, and affirm our commitment to action. the report is moving for many. we know the communities that have been affected by this abuse. they are strong communities with a great spirit. they have a vibrant and sports clubs. the church has always played a significant role. it has been respected and valued of people by faith -- of faith in the community. the facts in this report shows a different picture of the catholic church. abusers were allowed to use their status as clergy to carry out the most appalling crimes and the churches leadership in the diocese showed a disregard for the safety and the rights of the most vulnerable members of its flock. this was done not simply to avoid scandal, it went further and involved a refusal to respect basic morals and legal responsibilities. the abuse of children should never take place. but where it does, rich humanity requires swift and resolute intervention. he did not need regulations to understand this fundamental morality. however and sanctions have been in place for a long time. no person within any organization, public or private, as an excuse for not knowing exactly what to do when there is a suspicion of child abuse. the intervention of church authorities is nothing short of an outrage and the trail of those who look to them and for moral leadership. when the evidence of their failures were exposed, the reaction of church authorities have given little insurance they anderson to the scale and that of the outrage. this is not something that can be dismissed as a plot by a secular elite. the strongest views i have heard are coming from people whether great faith in the spiritual searching to -- teachings of the church. in my meeting, i made it clear that the irish state expected full cooperation in the investigation into abuse. and that all other investigations, if focus on the institutional interests of the church rather than those of the children abused and shaded by its leaders is unacceptable. it will continue to cause great damage. we should acknowledge some church leaders, especially the archbishop martin. the church will only retain a place of importance in our society if catholics follow him in his commitment to acknowledge in addressing the failure of the church over many years. the ryan reports exposed the systematic brutalization and exploitation of children for many decades. it showed the darkest chapter in our history as an independent state. thousands of children were abused in the most appalling ways within church institutions. what this report has done is to show how abuse and cover-up is not just the concern of the past. it is not something anyone can be complacent about. the ryan report emerged because of survivors who, many years into their adult lives, were determined to get justice and support. i met many of them before and after i proposed the establishment of that inquiry. a partisan note, in relation to the last government. the survival of the institutions have been refused access for a number of years. it was only the documentary that gave them any sort of access. but they have been denied any response from the stage for many years before we proposed the establishment. i admire their courage and commitment and their continued commitment to many survivors. instigated the first inquiry into abuse. george birmingham did an outstanding job in relation to that. we did not expect shocking revelations as a have had in terms of the diocese of dublin. many of the victims of abuse in their report are much younger than in the ryan report. it is right that we think the commission of investigation for carrying out this assignment with sensitivity. i welcome the general measures for dealing with what has been outlined in the report. our consideration should be a thorough and fast. equally, whether is a need for a forensic investigations, this should be carried out. >> i want to endorse the motion. the motion and the report are sending a strong message of support to those who suffered abuse. on this occasion, there is a stronger message of condemnation to those who perpetrated the abuse. it should be directed at those who covered up the abuse and the management of it. those in the vatican and elsewhere. those who in full knowledge of the impact of abuse from previous commissions, in full knowledge of the fact it was happening, they proceeded with contempt for survivors and victims, contempt for those who are members of the church, content -- contempt for the truth. a contempt has been in one name only, the protection of friends and colleagues, the protection given and offered at any cost, the cost of victims and survivors and truth. we have been here before. we have called all reports in relation to the room -- ryan report. we're also expressed sentiments to murphy. we're back here again. klein is not something that happened 50 or 60 years ago. it covers abuse allegations from 1996 to 2009. the greater a failure of the diocese was to report all complaints. there were 15 replace from the diocese. nine were not reported. this is 15 years ago. this report covers the post fer ns report period. the interest of a resource at the head of the community. we know that the this pact continued unabated in cloyne for the 30-year period. three diocese, three cover ups. we cannot say with certainty that the same is not true in every other diocese. we need that certainty. victims' need that certainty to get the peace they deserve. this country needs a certainty to move on. the vast majority of priests were not part of this. they need that certainty. we need to make sure -- the church must get its act together and published its audit. given the amount of time that is being expanded, it is not too much to ask it is published by the end of the year. it would show the real scare all of the situation throughout the country. it is only then that we will be able to say we begin the process of moving on. there is one caveat -- the matter the vatican into reared is appalling. the cloyne is quite correct. the response of the vatican can only be described as unsupportive, especially in relation to the civic authority. it strengthened the position of those super dissented from church policy. for the record, those who dissented were not interested in the protection of children. this response from the vatican was more interested in protecting friends and colleagues at the expense of children. since theone week publication of this report. the vatican has still to issue a formal response. the only response given is by a spokesman this morning who said there is nothing given by the annucio to break irish laws. he said the advice on job protection policies is not an invitation to cover-up of years. the must take us for fools at this stage. let's remind what the congregation told the vatican. they said the framework was not an official document but nearly a study document. it contained dispositions that appear contrary to discipline and could invalidate the act of some bishops. this is the most damning line -- if these were followed by bishops, the result would be embarrassing and detrimental to those same diocese. what about the children that were affected? there's no indication of any concern on the part of the vatican for that. they might not have the courage to -- bishops to break the law, they put the reputation of the church before the protection of children. they were more worried about embarrassment. how many other diocese did the vatican interfere in? in order for us to accept the audit, we need to ascertain this. we cannot believe there will be any other audit coming. the response perforce -- before us. i propose consideration be given to a joint committee in order to deal with this. -- crimes against children in september, may be given some of the discussion around this in the last few days, we might use august for some element of consultation so that people may have a chance to put forward their views to the justice committee in a dispassionate manner, strictly adhering to legislation. we may have that by the end of this month. it would be possible for that consultation. i want to abolish the efforts you're of made in addressing the backlog since her appointment. -- in your appointment. it will amount to nothing unless we use our resources. we cannot gather under another report to express our discussed and anger at what has happened. we have to put the building blocks in place to ensure that this legislature except the challenge the bishop martin has given the church when he says the church can never rest until the last victim has found peace. i put it to you today that we cannot rest until we have done our bit. >> thank you. you have 15 minutes. >> from the outset, we support the motion, we would have preferred to see the stronger language in the previous draft. the motion expresses how deplored the intervention was which undermines the guidelines of the irish state and the irish bishops'. previously the motion expressed condemnation of this scandalous intervention. the events that took place in cloyne may spend a considerable period of time but they did not take place 100 years ago. there was still abuse going on in cloyne while preparations on the constitutional amendment on children were under way. it comes right up to a couple of years ago. what we see it is a a 400 page document that shows that 17 years after the labor government was brought down in 1994, the official church has learned nothing. while the state has neglected its duties, in cloyne, the bishop held civil law. the disposition led to the abuse of more children through not adhering to correct reporting procedures and more children were placed at risk. how many inquiries to we have to put forward before reelection is taking place on this neglect? we have seen the reports. the catholic church still controls many of our schools. these incidents took place a short number of years ago. i shudder to think of the real facts and the whole story. will more reports and inquiries decommissioned? the -- they have quite -- claimed immunity. they have the role of issuing edits. it should be operated by one directly control the state. the church is not above the law and it is high time that stopped thinking that they were. this is the sort of disingenuous doublespeak that must end. the bishop had no interest in protecting the children and fobbed of his responsibility to a monsignor. john magee actively, knowingly lied to the government, to the head of services, and concealed information about the crimes committed by the priest with in his diocese. he actively engaged in the reckless and willful endangerment of children. there were prosecutions to be faced by those who perpetrated crimes against children either through directly accusing them or being accomplices in the cover-up of such abuse. nothing less will bring to an end this regime. 2000 complaints made between 2000 -- between 1996 and 2008 were not reported. while members of this house, including the ministers for children and just as were sitting in a committee room deliberating on the rights of children, bishop mcgee was still not reporting allegations of abuse. they have apologize for this report, but that is not good enough. it is absolutely disgusting and it goes right to the top. the bishops, along with the vatican, played a major role in aggravating the level of abuse of children and ireland. it found the vatican's reaction was entirely unhelpful to any bishop who wanted to implement while giving any bishop the individual freedom to ignore it. we need cast-iron guarantees from the church that they will adhere to the civil law when it comes to automatically reporting child sex abuse. it will do so now with immediate effect. they have a moral obligation to do so. however, moral obligations on members of the clergy and cloyne have not worked so well in the past. we need cast-iron guarantees for more flagrant breaches of the law which we have seen on so many occasions in the past. they must be held to account. for the vatican to state that it was merely a study document rather than an official document would be nothing short of an insult to the survivors and victims of abuse. they stated they had serious reservations of a moral and ecumenical nature of the document. regarding reporting allegations of abuse, and in some cases, cloyne parents were indeed molesters. why they were not recognized officially by the church. the monsignor actively obstructed the implementation of those guidelines in cloyne. there have now been three such inquiries into abuse in the diocese in ireland where child protection seized -- procedures have been found wanting. i again ask the question, will there be more? mr. mcgee was dependable and reliable, in his words. this was a man who had been found by the church's on magistrate board to be presiding over practices that were both inadequate and actually dangerous, and that is a scandal in itself. many people are saying we can learn from all of these reports. it is hard to see how so many reports highlighting similar failures can all have different lessons to take away. however, and looking at the lessons we can learn from the cloyne report, i wonder if there are other things we can teach others. there was the setting up of an inquiry into institutional abuse in the north, across groups set up to examine how an inquiry was set up almost a fortnight ago. a decision will be made on how to investigate crimes committed in institutions in the autumn. the minister should be aware that a number of -- a number of diocese stretch across the border. looking at possible future increase, it will be useful to coordinate in the six counties. might be of benefit to get the benefit of our experience down here and also among victim scrooges and wider civil says eric -- society in to help increase of abuse have been handled. i know a number such meetings with individuals have already taken place but i wonder if it would benefit from a more structured approach, and i ask the minister to consider this. it is only in keeping with the arrogance with which it approaches the mechanism for the protection of international human rights. i would ask the government's 2 resource these bodies accordingly. they must be absolutely capable of carrying out their responsibility. they must be affected. procedures as we have seen it not help, are of no use unless they are properly implemented, and minister, i wish you well in ensuring that these measures are indeed in place and at the earliest opportunity. >> there are five speakers, each with 3 minutes. >> i am sharing time with the other deputies. i will be brit -- very brief. like everybody else, i was horrified that the abuse went unreported in the diocese of cloyne. it is utterly reprehensible. i now call the government to break off diplomatic relations with the state's that had these pedophiles. the office stripped of its title, and the ambassador should immediately be withdrawn from the vatican. if any other foreign government conspired with our citizens to break the law here, they are ambassadors would be expelled. what does happen here is that the vatican, a sovereign state, has refused to cooperate with the investigation. it is a criminal conspiracy against children in this country. they instructed our citizens, their priests and bishops, not to comply -- not to comply with our law and to actually break our laws. we would not tolerate this for many government or any other state. the vatican state has breached the legal principle of non- interference in the internal affairs of a sovereign state. holysee is party to various conventions. the vienna convention of diplomatic relations, 1961, requires staff without prejudice. it is the duty of persons enjoying such privileges and immunities to respect the laws and regulations of the receiving state. they also have a duty not to interfere with the internal affairs of the state. the holy see has conducted itself in a manner that belies any relationship with the irish state. the vatican went to great lengths to make its new financial watchdog more independent. what about those criminals who inflicted such terrible suffering on the children of this country? surely the violation of children should take precedence over any suspicious financial transactions. i would urge using every channel available to challenge the failure of the vatican state to report on its compliance. under the united convention of 2003, i draw your attention to article 6 on the rights of the child and the failure of the holy see to insured that all cases of sexual abuse are reported. furthermore, a clear statement as to the privacy of the convention over can and law is required and i would urge setting a time frame for response from the vatican without delay, and bring this response back to the dail. >> i felt really angry after reading the report. the culture has not changed for many senior people in the roman catholic church in ireland. takes great courage to come forward, and i applaud those who did, to give testimony. the years of not being believed, being contributed as if they were in the confessional is totally wrong. for too long we have outsourced sexual morality to the roman catholic church in this country. it was an institution that was placed in a fairly privileged position. what was really horrific about this is that even after the revelations, there are people within the church is still did not get it. the culture of the protection of the church is still alive and there are many who are still in denial. i have watched the way the archbishop has been sidelined on the issue. he is one of the people who have given me any real confidence that the protection of children is an absolute and there must be no maybes. that is the approach he has been taking. it sends the most appalling message, that those who are questioning his approach are more likely to take the approach of the monsignor. he said why should we take it on ourselves to report when the complaint does not want that to be done? i don't know how he could have failed to understand that the requirement was there to protect other children. it seems to have been completely trusted by bishop magee, who said he was shocked to discover in 2008 that the framework government was not being implemented. how could bishop mcgee, after all that has been revealed in recent years, attach himself and that way? we are told in 2003, bishop mcgee held a series of meetings for all priest of the diocese to discuss the persistent crisis in the church in regard to child sexual abuse. it is even more outrageous that he did not supervise those he appointed to act on his behalf when complaints were made. i welcome the announcement that a statutory requirement will include a legal duty on the state agency to share relevant information in the best interest of the job. it is the responsibility of the state to ensure that systems are in place that are capable of handling complaints and a comprehensive manner. >> you have only 10 seconds. >> we have seen social workers complain -- they are being blamed. i am appalled by the complaints being made about how this is being handled in the lower courts. >> [unintelligible] it accentuate further that darkness. what is it about the institutions in this country that have this ability to treat children and young people so cruelly or allowing it to continue? the jewish nation had the holocaust and cambodia had the killing fields. we have had the systematic abuse of young people, up korean " how -- while we may not have had the depth those other disasters had, there is a part of every young person that dies when they are abused. there were reservations about some of them while in training. the concern for the welfare of the abuser above that of the welfare of the abused, rather than a genuine wish to help. while there were guidelines in place, reporting was not done. they were keeping inadequate records and also trying to keep the complaint within the church. there were times when the complaints were handled properly. the naming of the vatican -- widespread sexual abuse of young people not just in ireland but in other countries. equally heartbreaking by what was done by people of the same cloth. the standards that were adopted by the church or high standards. it would afford pop -- proper protection to children. it goes on to say that standard set by the state or less precise, so the state cannot afford to take the high moral ground here when there are cases being investigated of 207 people who died in state care. i welcome that the proposed bill -- children first guidelines. we have all the measures now, but we have to have the resources to match those. >> i agree that the government is very -- is right to be critical, but i think the change in wording from the original text -- condemn has been downgraded to deplore. condemn is to declare to be reprehensible, wrong, or evil, usually without reservation. ducouer means to feel or expressed grief, to regret strongly agree jakedeplore -- deplore means to feel or express grief. i prefer the use of "condemn." i think it is more important to keep communication lines open, but i think they have been deplorable. i also think the government should have to hold -- look at the whole relationship picked the church has played too big a part in the fabric of our states and the sooner it is divided, the better for broke parties. the office of the mentor for -- minister for children and youth affairs is strongly criticized in the report. the commission found it interesting to contrast [unintelligible] on behalf of the national board for safeguarding children in this case. mr. elliot took a much more robust approach to the inadequacies as he perceived them. in the commission's view, the national board of safeguarding children -- the office was overly and unnecessarily concern about the delivery of the report in july. when elliot did send the report , the ministers seem to be eager to exalt himself of any influence our responsibility in the area. it would be interesting to get some answers as to why that was the case. the commission makes it clear that the official was more concerned with protecting the minister from having to get involved. this is the official who actually asked mr. elliot to withdraw his report, redo it in a nicer way and send it on. the commission makes it clear that the official was more concerned with protecting the minister from having to get involved in dealing with the serious issue of concern that is clear and certain knowledge of the failure of the diocese of cloyne to implement job protection guidelines. it required -- the dices is not complying with documentation or guidelines on job protection. this was not the responsibility of the hsc, it was the responsibility of the minister. >> the pain and suffering that people who have been victims of abuse by a church institutions is just too horrific to describe, and in that context, the catalog of abuse and a cover-up by the church authorities of that failure to act is an absolute outrage, and i think that is what -- why this motion is a good start, being so critical of the church authorities, we need to go very considerably farther. i would say a first of all that there should be no question that until the church issues a clear and unequivocal statement that it will give precedence to civil law, the law of the state on these matters over can and law and its own concern to defend his reputation or any other self-interest that it may have, the papal nuncio should be expelled from this country. i would also say that both the church and the state should be forced into some sort of truth and reconciliation for rum were the victims of abuse by the church and other institutions should be given the opportunity to confront the authorities of the institutions that abused them and have their own voices heard and their own demands about what they need in terms of redress articulated. i also want to say that the report, while rightly criticisms were made of church authorities, the minister also needs to look at the issue of the failure to report complaints of abuse to the health boards, and the fact that in some cases, complaints were made. they have no qualifications to assess whether alleged abusers are an ongoing risk to children. that is a matter for the health authorities to assess by different criteria on whether legal prosecutions can be taken. when we talk about mandatory reporting, the key question is, to our reporting, and for what? reporting should not be just to the -- it also has to be to the health authorities who are considering the interest of the child, not just in terms of whether you can take legal prosecution, but on the best interest of the child, and what measures need to be put in place in order to secure the best interest of the child. can i also say that much of course has been agreed -- much of these problems would not have occurred if the children first guidelines were in place and being fully implemented by all agencies and respected by church institutions and everybody else. therefore, i very much welcome the government's commitment to put in place and give legislative forced to the children first guidelines. it is absolutely clear that those guidelines cannot be implemented fully and properly unless the resources are provided to do that. that goes way beyond the commitment to -- there are other staffing issues that need to be addressed. frankly, in a situation where the public sector -- it has to be looked at. >> we have to put the resources in place to make sure they do. >> monday night on the communicators, a look at cybersecurity and the u.s.'s ability to prevent attacks on private and public computer systems. a wall street journal correspondent joins three other guests as we wrap up the final in up for part series looking at the dangers of cyber security. see it monday on c-span2 at 8:00 p.m. eastern. >> on tonight's "road to the white house, an interview with republican presidential candidate jon huntsman, the former governor and u.s. ambassador to china talked about his strategy for winning the republican nomination and the state of the u.s. economy and relations with china. this is close to an hour. >> when did you first thing about running for president? >> as we were departing china, just this year. there is always talk about higher office when you are a governor. i would dismiss that as nonsense, and never really focused on the presidency until we return home from china, and there were some folks who actively had organized for another candidate who brought a real world problem-solving approach to our challenges as a nation. tion, analyzed it and as a family decided we would get in the race. >> what do you bring to this campaign? what's your message? >> well, i think i think we bring a very realistic common sense approach to, first of all, recognizing the situation that we face, which is a desperate dire difficult economic set of circumstances where you got high unemployment, record debt, the st difficult economic situation since the depression and people hurting and people not just hurting, but people downright frightened about their circumstances and about their future. so i think in order to address that, three things are going to be important as we go forward. i think i bring all three of these to the race. one, private sector experience where you have got somebody who understands the fragility and the importance of the free market and what it means to job creation going forward, because as far as the eye can see into the 21st century, we have been creating jobs as a country. you need a president who understands the dynamic of the free market system, number two, having someone who has been a successful chief executive, a governor who has actually managed a state with something to show for it. in our case, ting a great state to number one in terms of job creation, the best environment, most pripicious for business, the best managed state in america. that is very important and the results speak for themselves. that would be a very important consideration by the voters. number three, someone who understands the unpredictable nature of the world in which we live. it's not going to get any better going forward. it's going to remain unpredictable. it's going to remain a dangerous place. i have lived overseas for times. i have an intimate knowledge of our most significant economic relationship, china, and what i think is our most significant strategic challenge going forward as well, china. i think that is something that will be of great value in the oval office. >> i want to talk about yr