Transcripts For CSPAN Hearing On Older Workers In The Labor Market 20220831

Are vital with the collective prosperity and i am not just saying that because i am 71 years old. They bring decades of earned experience and with this and wisdom. Older americans make up 40 of the National Economic outlook, despite making up only 30 35 of the population. The United States primary tasks must be answering how we can build a more stronger and resilient economy where the benefits of that Economic Growth are shared. When unemployment was during 15 and it is a testament to the American Rescue plan. In the availability as we recognize the record breaking economic accomplishment, we must also address the ways are economy hasnt reached everyone. Older workers have faced unique challenges and these challenges were exacerbated by the pandemic. Decades of diminished marketing Bargaining Power and increasingly strenuous and dangerous jobs have contributed to insecurity among Older Workers and constricted Economic Growth. The pandemic on the parenting instructor. This is harmful to older black and hispanic women. Care industry wages are low and it is physically demanding. This makes an untenable situation for aging providers as they are simultaneously less physically able to continue their work but also unable to save and retire securely. More than one in five workers aged 45 to 64 reports being a caregiver to a parent. If the United States does not guarantee any workers the right to paid leave, and Older Workers even less likely than younger counterparts to have access to paid sick days. This forces many workers to make the impossible choice between caring themselves and a loved one and getting a paycheck which harms workers, businesses and the broader economy. Today, we are seeing these decadelong trends impacting Older Workers coming to a head. Just as companies have historically used downturns, the downturns to prolong older workplaces of prune workplaces of Older Workers, the same appears to be true of the coronavirus recession. At least 1. 7 million more Older Workers than expected retire due to the pandemic recession. The effects have been particularly harmful for older black workers and those without a college degree. Older workers choose to spend retirement on hobbies and families. This is not a reality for many Older Workers. The reality is over the course of the pandemic, many Older Workers have been forced out of jobs, to live on insufficient Retirement Income. For the first time in 50 years, the Unemployment Rate of Older Workers was higher than those of midcareer workers. All rates have stabilized in Older Workers have remain overrepresented. Because our economy system is not kept up with the needs of the aging workforce, the typical worker in the United States has zero Retirement Savings. No Retirement Savings at all. Among those that do, the amount is wholly insufficient to sustain a preretirement of retirement standard of living. Research shows they will experience significant barriers to be rehired particularly in recessionary periods. They face discrimination and for period of longterm employment. No worker should be forced in the early retirement and at the same time, no one should be forced to work long into their golden years because of insufficient Retirement Savings. As members of congress, addressing these challenges in order to help build a better labor market for Older Workers and create a stronger economy is central to our work. I look forward to this discussion with our expert witnesses learning from them today. Will be introduced the joint economic committee, senator lee from utah. The floor is yours. Sen. Lee Older Americans are the bedrock of our community. It is hard to overstate their role. We rely on grandparents for everything, from helping to care for our children to building our churches and volunteering in local charities. Increasingly Older Americans also make vital contributions in the workforce. Many of americas seniors and more and more of them are choosing to work because they find work to be a source of meat engagements and meaning in their golden years. A fellow utahan was missing the social connections and professional satisfaction associated with being at work after being out of the job for the last two years. Like so many other Older Americans, when he started looking for a job again, he thought he would never be able to get a leg up navigating the changes that have been brought about by the pandemic. That is when we saw story about return utah. A Great Program to help utahans who are looking for work after an extended absence. He was surprised to find the utah office of Energy Development needed someone with his technical skills. Although the position was temporary, after two months into the job, he was made a Permanent Team member and he is now able to put many years of experience to get use in his new position. His story is inspiring. It is inspiring for millions of American Workers on the sidelines and it is instructive for us today as we understand the barriers that older workforces face. As many choose to work longer many Older Americans remaining in the workforce longer and more employers are benefiting from their reliability and their experience. Older americans who choose to retire are also better set up for Economic Security than ever before. Americans have never saved more overtired and or have higher incomes for their golden years. Poverty among seniors is lower than among any other age group. The preliminary indicator is those who left work during the the workforce during the pandemic did so because they can better afford to retire. Older workers are doing remarkably well. What Older Workers do not need are due new special interest programs and policies cooked up in washington and delivered halfbaked by bureaucrats from thousands of miles away. Lets fix whats broken. Government spending is still the highest inflation rate this country has seen in four decades, and it is hurting all americans, including our seniors. Many of which are living on fixed incomes. Government programs intended to care for seniors often punish those who want to stay connected to the workforce longer. The threat of Vaccine Mandates continues to hang over the country, cruelly forcing americans to choose between the freedom to make their own Health Decisions and their jobs. Ultimately, a thriving, unencumbered economy is the best way to allow Older Americans to make their choices and make those choices that are best suited for themselves and for their families, whether that is spending more time with the kids and the grandkids, volunteering for the local congregation, maintaining a long healthy work life or all of the above. I look forward to hearing from witnesses on how we can foster this type of prosperity. Thank you. Thank you very much. Now i would like to introduce our four distinguished witnesses. One serves as a professor of economics and policy analysis at the new school for social research. She also directs the sportscenter Schwartz Center she is a labor economist and nationally recognized author and an expert in retirement economics and security. She offers various solutions to growing retirement crisis. Dr. Monique morris is an economist for the Economic Policy institute. Before joining the institute, she worked at the afl cio. She has written extensively about Retirement Security, compensation, and financial markets. In recent work, she examined the effects of the covid pandemic on Older Workers and ways to ensure they can fully participate in recovery. She received her phd in economics from american university. Miss jocelyn fly is part of the National Partnership for women and veterans. Prior to this role she was a senior fellow at the center for american progress. Before her time in the senate spencer, centre, she worked in the white house under president obama, serving as Deputy Assistant to the president and director of policy and special projects for michelle obama. She is an expert on policies that would improve the quality of work for women and Older Workers and their families. She is a graduate of harvard law school. Dr. Andrew bellocs is a senior fellow work focuses on Social Security reform, state and local government pensions, and Public Sector pay and benefits. Dr. Biggs served as the Principal Deputy commissioner of the Social Security ministration administration in 2007 and in 2005 he was associate director of the White House National where he worked on Social Security reform. He received a phd in government from the London School of economics. Lets begin with your testimony and we will in the order of introductions. The floor is yours. Thank you, chairman buyer, and Ranking Member lee and all of the other Committee Members that showed up. You are about to tackle the special issues the nation faces as nearly half of the 11 million , about 12 million jobs to be created by 2030. About half of those jobs will be filled with workers over 55. The sheer scale and the fast growth of Older Workers means they dominate conditions of the labor market. Bear falling status will hurt the overall economy. For a small minority of Older Workers, about 11 , we have great news. They still work, though they have more than enough to retire on. Those jobs are compelling and decently paid. Most Older Workers do not face those conditions. Older workers are likely to be working for big the younger workers. About one third of older nonwhite workers earned under 15 an hour, making them working poor. Older workers stopped being paid for their experience and loyalty. The rate of return for working one extra years has fallen in 31 in the last 30 years. For some Older Workers, technology might make their work easier, but technology can also intensify work. What we are seeing is as computers are spreading and some of our most robust sectors thrive on low wage Older Workers, think about Janitorial Service and warehousing more warehousing, more Older Workers are required to concentrate and use keen eyesight and more Older Workers are required to do physical labor. Over 42 of older black men are in physically demanding jobs. More Older Workers are working but despite all of that the u. S. Has one of the highest elderly poverty rates in the os cd and all of that work coupled with unequal longevity gains means American Workers have the fewest years in retirement. Black men can expect 13 years. While most workers in the g7 have well over 22 years of retirement and they have a small poverty rate. Poverty rate. Poverty rate. More Older Workers want to work but about half of workers and middleclass households will be downwardly mobile into poverty or near poverty in the next 10 years. That is because the median account balance for Older Workers is 15,000. Even if they wanted to work, most retirees are forced out of the labor force. The majority say they were forced to retire much earlier than they expected. Dynamic markets defined by bargaining relationships and power. A nobel economist observed that in when a growing group of that when a growing group of people, Older Workers, do not have the basic capacity to retire, they do not have the power to bargain for better jobs. If Older Workers have more borrowing power, one third of the younger family members providing time and money to their elders would get relief. If Older Workers had more Marketing Power communities would spend less on fragile elders and they would have more marketing demand in their community and that helps the recession. If Older Workers have more Bargaining Power we would reward the employers doing the right thing, those employers that that but higher, and training and pay Older Workers well. Finally Older Workers have more power to improve the Retirement Income security. You may hear about rosie models that conclude working longer solves everything, especially helping Retirement Income. Those models wrongly assume something i thought was always true, but is wrong. Older workers, instead of saving for retirement and delaying claiming Social Security, Older Workers, because of the lope low pay are claiming Social Security while they are working and drawing down their savings. The truth about the conditions Older Workers work mean the idea of working longer is not as costless as we thought. It is quite costly. Congress could help Older Workers. You could form an Older Workers we are all like you formed the womens bureau. It could coordinate the research and express issues we will look at, including the highest level of perceived age discrimination in the last 30 years, probably the pandemic accelerated this. Congress can spend coverage. I created a plan with former president trumps chief economist and the economic innovation group, and that plan provides a government savings to savings match to workers in the bottom half of the distribution. This Savings Vehicle works alongside and is modeled after the federal savings plan. Congress could help improve pay conditions by boosting a miniature the minimum wage, expand union rights, and increasing sickly. Congress can also make medicare the first payer and that will lower the cost of Health Insurance for employers. Strengthening older worker borrowing power helps more than Older Workers. Better jobs for older people improve productivity for the whole economy, it helps younger family members, it helps aging communities, those regions of the country with lots of older people stabilize their spending hours, and it helps all workers get the leverage they need to improve their jobs. Thank you. Thank you very much and for thank you for the very concrete policy ideas. Lets turn to dr. Money morrissey Monique Morsi morrissey. Thank you members of the committee for inviting me to participate. My name is Monique Morrissey and i am an economist at the Economic Policy institute, a nonpartisan think tank created in 1986 to include the need of middle and lower aged workers. The pandemic recession was unusual. It was not triggered by social triggered by social distancing in response to the pandemic, which affected labor supply and demand. Services are concentrated in leisure and hospitality while caregiving responsibility loomed large. In previous recessions, Older Workers Labor Force Participation increased as they delayed retirement in response to falling asset values. In contrast, homeowners and 401 k participants benefited from rising asset values during the pandemic, leading to an income among some clerk alleged workers. Workers ages 55 and older saw employment decline. Older workers were less likely to work in occupations and industries most affected by the pandemic, but they were more likely to leave jobs due to health risks. Job losses were greater among vulnerable groups including women, workers of color, noncollege workers and parttime workers. A robust federal response including relief checks and expanded Unemployment Benefits brought about rapid recovery despite the pandemics persistence. This is in sharp contrast to the slow recovery after the Great Recession that caused lasting damage to vulnerable workers and the economy. As the economy recovered, Older Workers were slower to develop return to work, accounting for over a third of missing jobs over the last year. Even though they were over a quarter of the prepandemic workforce. However, january data shows the employment date for Older Workers is now 1. 4 lower prepandemic rate. Even if Older Workers no longer account for disproportionate share of job losses, the impact can be devastating. Older workers script face greatest early earning losses than their counterparts because they are likely to be unemployed longer and their new jobs pay significantly less than their old ones. Older workers benefited from measures taken during the pandemic to extend the duration of Unemployment Benefits, increase benefit amounts, and expand eligibility. These measures help the economy recover by shoring up consumption by allowing workers to find jobs suited to their skills. Some Older Workers benefited by funding programs that encouraged programs to cut hours rather than laying off workers. We should be concerned about two groups of Older Workers. Lower wage noncollege workers who are not prepared for retirement and frontline workers in industries and occupations essential to our economic recovery and future prosperity, including workers in education, transportation, health care, and caregiving jobs. Frontline workers paid a steep price for our failure to protect workers during the pandemic. Strong Occupational Safety and Health Standards remain a priority. Many Older Workers left the paid work first stood up for health. Others were sidelined. Shirking employment in the sector effect affected family came family caregivers as well as Older Workers employed in these low paid and dangerous occupations. The build back better act would greatly improve the lives of Older Workers and enable some to return to work. It includes funding for home and Community Based services, a home creates a paid family and medical leave program, and includes the pay and working conditions for caregivers. The United States is one of few countries that do not guarantee access to paid sick leave. This is bad enough other normal under normal circumstances, but especially during a pandemic. Two thirds of lowwage workers lack access to paid sick leave, including many Home Health Aides and other frontline workers. My testimony focused on pandemic related effects and policy. Most policies that would help Older Workers also help other vulnerable workers, including raising the minimum wage, strengthening collectively collective bargaining life, rights, guaranteeing paid sick leave, addressing unpredictable and involuntary parttime schedules, combating misclassification of workers as contractors, and other policies that support good jobs with decent pay and benefits. Thank you. Sen. Byer we will next year we will next here from ms. Jocelyn fry. The floor is yours. Jocelyn thank you so much. Thank you for the opportunity to be here. Over last five decades the National Partnership of women in and family has worked to improve womens lives and tackle genderbased barriers that he wrote Economic Activity in the health and wellbeing of women and all people. We believe prioritizing equity and a comprehensive infrastructure are essential to creating effective workplaces and promoting economic stability, especially for Older Workers who are vital to our families and economy but are increasingly on shaky ground as too often the narratives about Older Workers are oversimplified stories about comfortable retirements and financial security, but these stories ignore the economic realities of Older Workers, especially older, particularly older women of color. I want to focus my remarks on specific challenges these workers face. Age discrimination, the lack of robust infrastructure, and the need to improve job quality. First, Older Workers continued to face according to the equal Employment Opportunity commission, 10 workers under the age of 45 have reported that they experience age discrimination. At even higher rates. Data from 2017 shows an increased majority of age discrimination is filed. We know that because of longstanding patterns of occupational segregation. Many women and workers of color are segregated in lower paying jobs with fewer benefits. Women workers are expected to shoulder the bulk of responsibility for their family. Paid and unpaid caregivers with too little support. Despite the fact that every family is likely to face a caregiving challenge, these obligations affect women throughout their careers. Many of them cycling out of the workforce. It is 750 billion less per year. Older women workers provide essential care for loved ones even if they address their care needs. This is performed by black women and other women of color. Care work and care workers have often been devalued with little regard to their needs. Many work in jobs with low wages. Women of color are especially overrepresented. This makes saving for retirement even harder. Disproportionately, women of color an average of a woman 50 or older will lose an estimated 400,000 in lost income and Retirement Benefits. These three problems have been on full display throughout the pandemic. Participation is lower than it was 30 years ago and caregiving challenges continue to wreak havoc. And Older Workers have seen medical declines since 2019. The current moment calls for improving employment opportunities. There should be several solutions that should be top priority. It is long past time for the u. S. To invest in robust infrastructure and reduce the longstanding gender and racial equity. This is along with strengthening communitybased services and to boost the Labor Force Participation. Congress should take action to improve job quality. Especially in caregiving occupations disproportionately held by older women of color workers. This is other forms of employment discrimination that includes increased funding and key enforcement agencies, focusing on womens employment and the different factors impeding womens participation in our economy, especially for older women. And finally, we will hear from dr. Andrew biggs from aei. Dr. Biggs thank you very much for inviting me to speak today on about employment at older ages. The opportunity it presents, the challenges along the way, and how far we have already come. The later changes later stages of our career is gateway retirement. To aid retirement give savings more time to grow, increase Social Security benefits. The question is can americans do it . I have been working retirement policy since the late 1990s and all of that time we have heard why americans cannot work longer, our health is too poor, age discrimination is too widespread for longer work to meaningfully contribute to Retirement Income security. Americans do not listen to the experts and it works anyway. Employment rates are at historical highs despite the covid pandemic and despite perceptions of Older Workers confined to only lowpaying jobs, median earnings exceeded those of younger adults. On top of this the average american claim to social surety benefits over 1. 3 years later today than they did in 1990. Employment rates have increased the most for americans. It is not merely People Like Us extending their work lives. These are things that already happened. Americans did with the expert said they cannot and have been rewarded for it. Youve heard most americans cannot afford a decent retirement. The data Shows Americans Retirement Savings are decent levels. Americans Retirement Incomes are also at record levels, not just among the richest retirees but across income distribution. Incomes are driven risen faster than incomes for working age households and poverty is at record lows. The Social Security multimillion dollar Retirement Income model projects Retirement Incomes will rise and poverty will fall. Oecd data Shows Americans work longer and save more for retirement than most other developed countries. Our will reward our reward is the typical u. S. Retiree has the highest disposable income in the developed world and reports the highest level of financial security, with the greatest number of retirees say they can maintain their preretirement standard living in the smallest number saying their incomes fall short. We can do better and one place to look is better entitlement programs. We call Social Security and earned benefit because the Social Security taxes we pay result in higher benefits. That is not true for most americans who choose to delay retirement. The typical worker who delays retirement by one year will receive only 2. 5 cents in Retirement Benefits for each dollar of additional tax. That comes from certain quirks in the Social Security benefit formula. Here retirees are particularly sensitive. Unlike middleage workers they have the option to retire. Medicare also presents challenges to work in old age. Medicare covers health costs beginning at age 65, but not for workers who continue to work in jobs that offer Health Insurance. Instead medicare acts as a secondary payer and covers only what the employee plant wants. This either reduces incentives for employers to hire Older Americans or costs are passed on to employees. Neither the Social Securitys for the medicare fixes would be cheap. It is providing benefits to americans, providing employees to american firms, and generating new tax revenues to the federal government. A strong labor market in which Older Americans can easily find jobs is the best social program. The best weapon against employers who might discriminate by age and the best method to help americans cross the finish line into a retirement. For those coming back from a it was good for those with disabilities, those with less education or skills, or those coming back from a drug problem or a criminal record. Making jobs plentiful makes nearly every other problem americans face easier to solve. The gec should think about the myriad ways in which we can build a vibrant labor market for Older Workers. Thank you for your attention. Sen. Beyer thank you very much. I appreciate all those inputs. We begin with our round of questions. Youve been a strong advocate of the idea of an order Workers Bureau in the department of labor. How would this be part of the solution . Dr. Ghilarducci i do not want to create a Big Government bureaucracy, but having one place in the government that focused all of the research about the chaining the changing issues. The Labor Department has in the treasury has unaware Older Workers are staying have given a good picture of what is happening to them, and also the order Workers Bureau is filled with lots of economist also telling us how this wave of Older Workers are affecting the whole economy, how employers are adding to productivity as workers get old and others do not. As we look at industries that are hiring a lot of Older Workers and have concrete ideas besides do not think badly of Older Workers, it was really attached to the problems you will be facing in the next 10 years, more age discrimination, more insecurity. Some good news has happened if you think about all the time. Sen. Beyer much of the story in the Mainstream Media is about financially secure order workers happily choosing to play golf and take care of grandkids. How is the media getting this wrong . Dr. Morrissey there are a few Older Workers who fall into that category. We have seen an uptick among collegeeducated white men age 70 and older who are probably already taking Social Security and then decided to leave. Their work might have dried up and covid fears and all of that. The people we should really be worried about our this large group of workers under 65 are not College Education who are predominantly workers of color employment declines. Those are the people i most concerned about in terms of the impact for their families and themselves. This is also a problem that predated the pandemic of the pandemic made it much worse. Another group of workers im worried about is workers for whom they might be able to comfortably retire. A lot of the workers are not 65, but school teachers, nurses. They are critical to the economy recovery. We are seeing large numbers of these workers leaving. For the economy that group is critical to stem that out for . We need to make sure the large the noncollege workers, under age 65, are able to return to lord force. One of the reasons this got so much attention is because there is a disconnect. It was in session by some Federal Reserve that there had been a decline in workers going from unemployment to retirement, but that was sort of a mission measurement. The retirement rate of people unemployed going into permanent retirement declined slightly, but the sheer number grew dramatically because there were so many more unemployed workers. I want to do a shout out to some grad students. Teresas team was the one who figured out why there was this communication about what was happening terms of inflows and outflows out of retirement. They untangled the two effects. You might have a slight decline in the people who are unemployed, but there are so many more unemployed older worker that that was what was causing a decline in Older Workers. It is a confusing thing but thanks to teresas team. Thank you. Sen. Beyer let me recognize senator lee. I see you are present in the digital mix. Are you also present in real life . Give senator lee just one minute. He is running a couple minutes late. We are moving towards schweikert, the Ranking Member of the house side of the joint comic committee, the floor is yours. We need to hear you. David at some point we mail be doing this in something called the metaverse we get to functionally be avatars i am familiar with a little bit of their work and i had some frustrations because i think we have problems in our data matching. That is that secondary. By a big fixation on our demographic curves and what is happening to the working poor, and we have to have a moment of honesty. The last year has been brutal to the working poor, especially if you trusted transfer payment. Inflation, populations coming over the border with similar skillsets. That may mean a burning power over the next decade. Maybe there is something using i could find a collective understanding or agreement, and that is what policy says is there an effort to save our credit type of matching that would bide additional Retirement Security, particularly for the three quartiles we are most worried about. Mr. Biggs, if i came to you tomorrow what tweaks would you make our tweets and medicare might have a health positive to the trust fund but would encourage our brothers and sisters who are older to stay in the labor force and we can also have the discussion, which i despise the antidotal discussion on health benefits. What policy sets would you move forward on . Dr. Biggs your proviso they do not hurt the health of the trust fund is where things get difficult. I may touch on two points. One is you make to want work pay at an order age all the extra money you pay goes to Social Security, not your own benefits. It is unusual to get your money back at that stage in the game. I have proposed reducing or eliminating the payroll tax at early ages to sweeten the deal for people to keep working. United kingdom does that. Once you reach their normal retirement age their version of Social Security goes away because youre not getting anything for it the Research Shows near retirements are very sensitive to these incentives. Reducing the payroll tax would cost Social Security money, but if more people work paying state and local income taxes. On medicare if medicare took over as a primary payer, again it will cost money, but that would make Older Workers more attractive to employers, it would make work more attractive for seniors because it would raise their wages. Evening it out as a tricky part, you want to think about it in the context of more comprehensive reform. I would scale that down for high earners. These are folks whose Retirement Savings are through the roof. They can more save were i think there are ways we can make these packages work but we have to not be afraid of reforming the plans stuff we need to think creatively about it. Sen. Beyer medicare it self does have some income adjustment. Would you steepen that curve and use some of those resources to help finance the incentives to stay in labor force or some of the lower quartiles of income . Dr. Biggs i would. Medicare has more effective means testing that Social Security does. I am not primarily a health care guy also focused on your lifetime earnings to encourage people to save or work more. It is really thinking about how you want to sen. Beyer i think i have a fairly robust article talking about that same formula. We have spent a decade talking about the baby boomers coming and we avoided the discussion because somehow congress forgot there were people turning 65 and are now well into that retirement cycle. The nature of work has changed. We are no longer digging ditches United States needs talent in the labor force, particularly if we are going to have gdp or economic expansion. There has to be a way the right and left can see fit to create incentives. I yield back. Sen. Beyer we will next year from senator Amy Klobuchar if she is here. The senator is not. There she is. Senator klobuchar. The floor is yours. It is still early. Sen. Klobuchar thank you. I want to thank the witnesses. I think this is such an important topic. I want to thank the chairman for going ahead with this hearing. I have been pretty obsessed with his hearing for a while because we have a lot of seniors in our state. We have huge workforce issues in our state this is one of them, making sure people have the best experience they can and being part of our economy if they want to be. My first question is that the data provided by the shores Schwartz Center shows decades has experience falling in the United States. A lower rate of return on income for each additional year worked. Can you tell us about the statistics based on your organization and why is it indicator of the challenges Older Workers face. We saw that starting to happen in the financial recession. It does seem like employers are abandoning Older Workers. They are not trading them, they do not value the experience, but there are some sectors that are who bring up Older Workers. Warehousing, the vending i talked about, amazon warehouses. We had an Academy Awardwinning movie about that. Back to your question. The return of experience is a result of employers not valuing Older Workers and it means those catchup Contributions Congress put in to have that extra weight Older Workers can save for retirement, it does not work for people who peeked around 45. Congress has to completely rethink the way they do Retirement Security because of the decline in the return senator klobuchar dr. Morrissey, could you talk about how the work sharing benefit particular benefits Older Workers. You talked about that as an alternative to traditional unemployment. I can answer the question on my own. I want to hear from all of you. Dr. Morrissey i just want to make it clear that even though i am a huge fan of work sharing, and im very grateful for congress to including work sharing in the cares act, which was wonderful, i think it was underutilized and remains underutilized by the states that provided. What work sharing does is allows employers to reduce hours across the board and compensate workers, not for unemployment, but for lower hours why it matters to Older Workers is because when Older Workers sever their Employment Relationship with an established employer, they face those challenges we talked about earlier. Longterm unemployment, discrimination in hiring, seeing much lower pay and whatever job they are able to get after the fact. It is particularly important for these workers they do not actually sever that Employment Relationship. They have employers specific skills. They have more tenure with the employer. It is important for them and the economy. Even though the extended Unemployment Benefits helped with job matching and allowing workers to get better jobs after the effect. Often there is a mismatch, because they are desperate to get any kind of work stop extended unemployed and better benefits. Thank you. I want to get one more question in and not turn off another member of congress. Not cut off another member of congress. Ms. Frye, in your testimony you talked about we should dispel the notion of an average older worker and highlight the different lived experiences of older American Workers. Could you quickly expand on that . Jocelyn thank you. I will say so quickly. The important thing to recognize his people come to the table differently. What we know is there are existing disparities in wages among women. Among women of color. Many of them some plead dont have the earnings necessary to amass a robust Retirement Fund that allows them to have a comfortable retirement. They are also in lowwage jobs disproportionately. And they have insecure jobs because they are more likely to have caregiving. We have to have a diverse understanding of the experiences they bring to the table. A couple of quick followups on that. We all know women may lead the leave the workforce for a while, raise a family, and then they have less money coming in for retirement and Social Security. The second point, mr. Chair. I have found having Older Workers in workplaces, i have one in my state office that was a complete joy. Younger workers say we will always go to them for advice, and that is good, including to have a mix of people, including romantic advice. I found that to be a nice mix of people and that is true in all work laces and we should highly value some of the Older Workers and bring them back if they want to. Thanks. Thank you very much. Great insight. Now the senator from utah, the floor is yours. Sen. Lee thank you very much. Dr. Biggs, we hear about a retirement crisis. Many say people are saving less and less for retirement and fewer and fewer americans have access to Retirement Savings account. Your research tells a different story. Your Research Finds that americans are more confident about their ability to retire comfortably and the United States ranks among the leading nations in the world in terms of retiree disposable income. Can you elaborate about what makes america different in that regard and tell us why are our seniors better prepared for retirement and why are they looking longer and more productive careers in anyone else. It seems like an accomplishment when it deserves our celebration. Dr. Biggs i think a lot of times we do not give ourselves credit and we focus on the problems and not enough on the accomplishments. The state of americans Retirement Income security is the backdrop for hearings like this. Work in late middle age can make or break your retirement. Compared to when definedbenefit tensions were at their peak in the 1970s these were the pensions everyone pined for, compared to them the share of workers participating in retirement has increased to Retirement Assets have increased sevenfold. Every age, income group. The number of retirees who receive benefits want to retire. That is up to medicaid. Across the board, with harmon income is at record high. Opinion surveys, 80 of retirees say they have enough money not just to survive but live comfortably. Only 5 say its hard to get by. These are not just numbers i cook up. These are data points. What we need to do is square with the other witnesses are saying with the other data. The way you bring us together is, despite the problems people face. Getting access, we are clearly better off in terms of preparation that we were in the past. To sum up, and my testimony i gave the example of a french scientist who said that b should not be able to fly because the aerodynamics are not very good. This is a case where everyone told americans, you cant do it, we did it. 401 k s are more common because they dont place burdens on employers. We have a vibrant labor market which gives opportunity for people to work longer. Our system is messy, but it actually works. The data shows it works better than other countries. Sen. Lee research gathered by my staff finds social capital among Older Americans has declined over time. Americans were approaching retirement age are less likely to have a spouse or companion, have fewer children, few were Close Friends and family members nearby and less likely to attend Church Services regularly. One bright spot is many Older Americans are more likely to be employed. The workplace is ending an increasingly important source of social connection. I agree with you that the best way to support Older Americans who wish to work and empower them is to have a Strong Economy , an economy with plenty of job opportunities. What do you think would best support a stronger labor market . Dr. Biggs the key is to make a lot of Jobs Available to people. When you have many choices, we have many choices. We dont want just jobs, we want jobs in this. All of those benefits are things that make the employer less likely to hire you. You can mandate whatever protections you want, but the employee does not want to hire Older Workers, theyre not going to do it. We have to have as many jobs as we can and let the market push things up. Prior to the recession, we saw wages for the first time in many years increasing faster than they did for the very rich. At this sort of thing that warms my heart. Try to make the market more vibrant and sometimes that is at odds with trying to solve individual problems. Sen. Lee thank you. I yield the floor to my friend from maryland. Thank you very much. As a fellow business guy, it is so key we have these Older Workers with us, we have 13 million americans who have a workforce and we have a tremendous shortage of workers. These Older Workers bring so much insight and dedication. My company cant find enough folks in the age bracket. I have seen firsthand how tough it is to reenter the workforce. We had a paper bill close. All of a sudden, workers are out of jobs. Most of them are much Older Workers. Submit an application that help them. As we grow our economy, what role should retraining play in helping Older Americans succeed . You need more money. The Training Programs are rewarded for placing people into jobs that pay as well or better than they have before. If you have workers in the trading program, you will have a low score. Older workers tend to make less, especially if they lost a union job and are being trained. You can raise wages through the congressional methods that you do, but the National Senior employment act is coming up for renewal. Those need to be restructured and refunded. How do we combat asias termination . How do we combat age discrimination . Lots of really good work to do that. We have to start with ourselves and stop making jokes about senior moments. Mainly, its up to congress and the justice department, age discrimination cannot be tolerated. There are proposals to enforce the laws we already have, tougher. Thank you. You highlighted the importance of paid medical leave. I have 4000 employees at my company. Its great for the employees and employers, it addresses the wage gap. What can we do to encourage and not just provide more paid family leave and medical benefits, but full utilization of these benefits by Older Workers . Ms. Frye great question. Paid leave is really critical to managedcare responsibility, and i think we have to reinforce the idea it is for all workers, not just a parental benefit, its to deal with Older Workers. We need to dispel the myth of the culture barriers that sometimes this incentivize people from taking leave and recognize the point you made, we can actually make workplaces more productive. We can improve morale and strengthen Business Efficiency overall. I think its the combination of sending that message and creating the culture within the work voice workplace you show it is beneficial. The culture piece is really key. My top priority in congress has been there. Crisis. The opioid crisis. Older americans have been hit hard. What we see is between 1999 and 2019, older American Workers, 55 and up have a tenfold increase on addiction. Tenfold. What things should be ensure americans with a Substance Use disorder have the resources to participate in the workplace . At the really important point. Economists who have written about the depths of despair, we had seen a rise in overdoses, including Older Workers and it is partly economic. This is concentrated among lower paid, lower skilled workers. One of the groups of Older Workers we have seen leaving the workforce is therapists during the pandemic. We need more therapists, much more funding for treatment and Mental Health services. No doubt about it. Thank you for that question. May recognize the senator from texas. Sen. Cruz right now, the American People are suffering from historic inflation. The National Debt has surpassed 30 trillion and inflation is raging. With the latest economic reports indicating increased by 7 over the last year, the highest inflation since 1982, 40 years ago. At the end of the day, its not complicated. High inflation presents a real problem for American Families because it means the dollar has less purchasing power and erodes savings. As a result, it is more expensive for families to put food on the table, gas in the car. Even worse, inflation hurts the most vulnerable among us. Including seniors who have saved on fixed incomes and now find the savings are worth less. Would you agree that high inflation hurts seniors, hurts those living on a fixed income . One of the best things about Social Security is is is it is inflation index. Inflation hurts working families for sure, especially if wages have not caught up. But, seniors who have Social Security actually got a big boost because of inflation. Its ironic. Im not downplaying it, but with health care not going up as much, they are more protective. Sen. Cruz in october 2013, you sent out a tweet that said reports on low costoflivings adjustment suggests the system is not working, but low inflation is good. For those people who have to rely on 401 k distributions, who dont have inflation index. Sure. In terms of the Current Situation now. Sen. Cruz you agree high hurts seniors. It does. U. S. Made about right now. Sen. Cruz prices are rising, grocery bills are climbing higher and higher. Over the last year, the price of steak is up 21. 4 . Chicken is up. Milk is up. Eggs are up. Fresh fruit is up. He wrote an article in which he stated vegetarian scan cope with inflation better than steak eaters. For americans to survive by switching to expensive from cheaper things. There are a state eating wouldnt it be a better way to help america suffering the effect of the inflation crisis, wouldnt it be better to adopt appropriate Monetary Policy such as bringing in spending and debt rather than forcing people to abandon their preferences, not eat steak, not drive truck . It reminds me of the october Washington Post oped in which consumers were told to lower expectations. Is that the right answer . Thank you for reading my stuff. I was making the point that people can change consumption. That can be bad. A lot of the places we are seeing price increases is because of the concentration of monopolies and Pricing Power in those industries. Sen. Cruz we are seeing inflation up across the board. Are you aware that studies have confirmed that inflation costs the average u. S. Household and incredible 5,000 per year . We are seeing wages go up. Economists know it affects different people differently, we need to not let it go out of control. An additional 5,000 a year, particularly those on fixed incomes. For sure. Thank you. Thank you. I would point out as a business person blackrock shows virtually none of the inflation was due to policy but rather the pandemic impacts. With that, let me recognize my friend, the former treasurer of kansas. Thank you to the witnesses for joining us today, before covid hit, we were concerned about the workforce and having enough workers and its even more important now as we look at coming out of covid and moving forward, my share the concerns mentioned about inflation and the issues there, some of the decisions around curtailing things like the Keystone Pipeline which led to higher gas prices. For the pandemic, the economy had taken off the cap washington outoftheway and returned Economic Freedom to the American People. By removing regulations, entrepreneurs had hoped. Today, i worry entrepreneurs will be scared away from trying. Anyone who wants to start a business has to face supplychain disruptions, rising prices, higher taxes. Americans have acquired skills and talents. When we discuss the labor market, it supported to understand how taxes impact them. Raising your taxes to fund more Government Programs is not the solution. We have hundreds of redundant Government Programs. We need to look at structures. As you noted in your testimony, Older Americans are faring quite well. In 2020, only 11 of retirees decided to quit because they cannot find employment. It seems retirements are because americans are choosing to retire. How should we as policymakers think about our role so they can make work or retirement choices that are best for them to mark we talked earlier on data. If you look at people in the near retirement range, people who report themselves as being retired and are asked in a federal survey, would you like to go back to work . , 90 said no, i do not want to go back to work. That is consistent with past data. Most people are retiring happily. Incomes are ok, if you ask them, we keep telling retirees they are not doing ok. Both the hard data show they are doing fine. We dont want to throw out the baby with the bathwater because we have done well. Going forward, we want to build on things. We talked about expanding options, i agree with that. We probably agree on secondary pay issues. Those are things we can do to further the progress, my general thought is, lets open the door to more jobs, lets not start micromanaging. Something like hs termination, i oppose it. We should prosecute it. There are downsides and getting too aggressive. Some Research Finds that might reduce employment. We want to be careful about getting overambitious and thinking how we can manage how the economy works. The economy has a mind of its own. And pledge made that point. I am glad you made that point. One of the things i did before i ran for Public Office was looking at efficiency. Look for the root cause of the problem. As we look for solutions, i want to make sure we are building solutions. Not something that may be a symptom. But that, i will yield back. Thank you. I want to thank congresswoman Herrera Butler for her patients. Can you hear me ok . Perfect. This is been an interesting conversation. I was with mr. Chairman in november. We got to listen to an amazing economics professor at the London School of economics. We were asking some questions. If you talk about the growth in the economy, we are not seeing it in wages. I remember asking specifically about who is not working. Some she nailed it, narrowed it down. She was talking about workers who are 50 years old, in the rust belt. Lots of working age men is a massive problem. She talked about opioid use that started with the rust belt. Trying to help identify who is not working. The other thing she talked about was productivity. When youre talking about Older Workers and the decline of manufacturing and stagnation of wages, how much of it is due to technology and other factors . She said 80 was technological. Im hearing about Older Workers, and we dont want to put them on a program where they are not productive. If youre working as an older american, you are doing it because you have to or love it. If you love it, generally its not a financial issue. How do we get them into something they can enjoy . Technological advancement, training initiatives that will help both them and boost productivity, because that is how we get out of stagnation. I have not heard anyone talk about training, opportunity in that sector. One of the things we talked about is how everyone went offline and some workers are able to use zoom, i think its like half of workers couldnt do it for their jobs. How do we make these transitions for Older Americans . Boost the productivity but bring them into the workforce . Thats open to everyone. Lets look at the industries that are really growing. Home health care is 1. 3 million of new jobs. Its a big portion. How do you create better conditions and better productivity in health care . In other countries where workers are paid a lot more, this is a disproportionately higher sector thats categorized by old women taking care of older women. They have a system of medication information. They have technology that helps. You see this in japan. They often apply technology its grueling work, its difficult. I remember trying to serve women and knowing this is only going to grow. One of the things that i think is critical is we have to find a way to boost some areas, im not going to allow my grandma or your grandma. That may not be a boost to overall gdp growth in the economy. We have to balance it if we are going to spend that money. How do we, not even thinking about workers, make sure they are in a good place, seniors coming out of a job and get retrained and Something Else . Ultimately, thats what a Company Needs in order to expand, correct . Some of that is corrected by the market. You might remember my answer about Training Programs, they are not incentives to help Older Workers. We need low income senior programs. We have millions of people who need training. Im out of time. There is no possible time were going to go for around two. Go ahead. Dr. Biggs im going to take my time while its on offer. Thank you very much. I think this goes back to some of the points senator lee made about social capital. This has direct impact on things like longterm care that in the past, longterm care was done informally. One spouse would care for the other. I moved from washington, d. C. To oregon so i could be closer. As families have broken down, more retirees are living alone, that forces them to rely more on professional care while they are in declining health and push more of them into longterm care so they do not have someone to care for them. This has an impact on them, the labor market. Its going to have an impact on the budget. Costs go up because the social fabric has broken down. All of these things are interrelated. Something like come health care is a laborintensive task. If we want to group people together, 10 seniors live in a home, maybe we can increase the Home Health Care worker, its a tough thing to get on top of. Thank you. I want to recognize my from from texas. Thank you. I have enjoyed the backandforth. Ive gained some new insights a. It appears job participation rates are better among the Older Workers, they seem to want to stay if they can. We have to get our economy back where they have that choice and can exercise their choice to stay in the workplace longer. Thats the most important thing. We dont need to do any more harm with respect to the labor shortage, inflation, input cost and stresses on the economy. I have a broader question about those companies who are doing well at attracting and retaining Older Workers. I am sure there is more time spent on millennials and other generations on what they need and are looking for to stay incentivized not only at work, but be most productive. What does that look like for the older worker . Anyone can answer this. I welcome anyone to jump in, what companies are doing the best in that regard . What states are doing the best civil private incentives and maybe even state public incentives or programs in combination that are working to keep these folks in the game longer. I think there are personal polity of life benefits for these Older Workers as well. Thoughts on that . I will be honest. I do not know the state level data very well. Often we focus at the federal level. I can take a look into that. Thinking about companies or industries, we talked a little bit earlier about how some growth is in Service Related jobs, Home Health Care areas offering flexibility to voice is helpful, at those ages many people want to work parttime, giving them the opportunity to do that is helpful in terms of the place where you work. People want to stay near families. There is a lot of employment in small firms, its made it a little easier if you are under 20 employees, you need to offer health care. Thats a big issue. Health care costs have gotten higher and higher. I completely agree. If youre thinking of strategies to make it easier, picture, reducing Health Care Costs, we look at it as macro perspective. When the doctor talked earlier about how theirs lower returns than there used to be, that means lower increases in wages as we get older. But, employers are paying more in terms of Health Care Costs and that comes out of wages. Simply, trying to reduce costs, not reality, actually reduce costs, that is a bonus that makes Older Workers more attractive to employers, makes work more attractive. There are things we can do, but health care is a real macro issue that if we can get on top of, will reap dividends for the budget and employees as well. Thank you. Just to follow up in the interest of time, you test on the Social Security benefit formula that this incentivizes folks to stay in the workforce longer. Research proves americans prefer private savings versus expanding Social Security. They get a better return. They get more choice. What incentives should myself be looking to put in place to encourage more private savings on top of our efforts to address the solvency problems with Social Security . I think thats a very important safety net, but im talking about additives. I know you are running out of time. If i have to be cut off, let me know. I commissioned a survey where i asked americans, if you want to increase Retirement Income, would you rather or and get more, or save more through an ira and 401 k and get more . Acrosstheboard, three quarters of americans would prefer to save more on their own. Its attractive to people. They trusted, they feel like they can control it. The issue is, how do we expand that . Things like automatic enrollment has helped. We want to think about how we expand access. Ultimately, i think something, some sort of federal plan who cant get a Retirement Plan makes sense. We also want to think about things like lawsuits. Thats going to disincentivize those plans. You can lead a horse to water and cant make it drink. Thank you for your indulgence. Thank you very much. We will have a second round for those who like to stay. Let me start. Weve been talking specifically about workers left out of retirement. Can you talk about guaranteed retirement accounts . Its a bipartisan plan. A former trump chief economist and i are really far apart in terms of ideology have come together as economists. By looking at the plan and how well it works, it works by getting lower income people into it because it provides a match. We have proposed a detailed plan for the government to provide a match to people who earn below the median wage. This would allow them to participate in the program, perhaps a sidecar so they can start accumulating assets. The testimony today pointed out it would help the labor market, because with more Retirement Security, people who are forced out early or want to stay and have a fallback position would have better jobs. Thank you very much. Ms. Frye, in his testimony, there could be a better way to increase Retirement Income. Why cant everyone just work longer . Absolutely. Not everybody lives the same time. There are disparities. The nature of work. If you look at Older Workers a significant percentage, jobs that are physically demanding so even the physical exertion is excessive. I dont think its they simply want to work longer, but making sure they can take care of themselves and have the ability to care for their own wellbeing and families and have the income to do so. You have to understand the differences along race and gender, the different ways people come to the table. You agreed that medicare is first payer. That certainly makes a lot of sense. Have people priced that out . Its not that scary, but it is positive. It never factors in how much healthier the workers will be or people will be as they age into medicare. If you can get Health Insurance to people quickly, if you lower the age so they are out of work at 58, that can save money. Its important for smaller businesses to have Health Insurance for their workers because they will not get the hit on experience. That answers the question, what kind of companies are open to Older Workers, a lot of it is because they can absorb the Health Insurance costs. The most likely reversed positive incentive. I am paying into Social Security and not getting anything or it. Have you consider the notion of once you have maxed out what the return is that you should not have to pay it anymore . First above, you should be tapping Social Security. After 70, you dont have any delay. I do get my check. Thats a good question. I have disagreements on a lot of these points. He conjures up an image where workers want to work longer, they can work longer, as a result they are more comfortable except there is a problem where extra benefits and expansion harm this scene he has created what we are working longer, its by choice and Older Americans are comfortable. None of that is actually true. I am sorry to be disagreeable. When you do international comparisons, the reason americans look like they are doing well at older ages is because they are working. They are having to work. Europeans are at leisure at the same age. Last year, we had a recordbreaking low poverty rate because of transfers you need to last year. Because we use a measure of poverty that is not realistic. Supplemental poverty, seniors had higher poverty rates than working age americans. In terms of whether they want to work and can, democratic witnesses have gotten less time to contribute. In terms of whether or not they can work longer, research has looked closely at this, even zero to nonworkers who have stable employment, five years or more in their early 50s. Two thirds of those workers experienced involuntary job loss before they retired, and only 1 10 of those that lost their jobs managed to get earnings anywhere close to what they were before. Its not a choice. Most workers, because they are laid off, even if they expect or want to retire later, they came. Finally, im sorry to use of time, the idea that workers have strong incentives to keep working, the longer you work, the less time you have to support yourself in retirement, the more you can save and benefits are higher. All of these factors usually overwhelm any suppose a disincentive of paying taxes for benefits. The benefits we have been talking about which draw more workers into the workforce. We have seen workers leaving because they are scared to work, because they are in danger. Its completely backwards. The more we protect workers, the more benefits, the more we keep Older Workers in the workforce. I agree we should take measures to equalize Health Care Costs by age, i am not sure incentivizing people would be viewed as fair. Nonetheless, we need to take that out of the equation. Its expensive. Its much smaller amount of money. Im sorry to eat up the time. I had a lot to rebut. There were many republicans show up to ask questions. With senator klobuchar. Im going to give dr. Biggs the chance to defend his honor. I am kidding. I love the passion, we all want to address the challenges and problems and we have different ways to do that. That is my experience, most folks have motives to help. I will say, not to be my democratic colleagues, we had a former Federal Reserve president of the Kansas City Reserve Bank talk about the easy money policies that have contributed to inflation as they did in the 1970s, and not only is it the most punitive tax on everybody, especially the working poor, it also has a greater gap in separation between the haves and havenots because those who have assets have seen asset values go up so sort of, the rich got richer. Those that do not have Asset Ownership were out of luck. That is a double whammy for the folks we all want to help the most in this country i am concerned, we talk about Retirement Security, the liabilities in the state pensions, and 2010, the unfunded liabilities in the new jersey state pension was 1 trillion, i dont know how much in the system there is. I cant quantified. Im sure dr. Biggs has looked at it. It may be a bit of a crisis if its not addressed. I thought the butch lewis legislation that went to bailing out Union Pensions was horrible, not because we dont have to spend money to solve the problem, but because we never addressed the underlying causes. What do we do about the underlying causes so we dont create more hazard, and how do we get real Retirement Security for these folks depending on it . It is a great question. Ive done a lot of work including a recent report on new jersey. Those are a big problem. A comparison to Social Security is helpful. If a trust fund runs out, there is a legal implication. Financially, it does not matter very much. If a state Pension Trust fund runs out, if you are new jersey or illinois, if they run out, that state is bankrupt. That is real money from outside the government, and if its gone, they have a real problem. Puerto rico went bankrupt because they ran pensions into the ground. 1. I would make, the risk is federal legislation that regulates pension, they would be regulated as well. The thought is, pensions arent that big of a deal, states are good actors, they will not shortchange. All that turned out to be false. If they were federally regulated, you would be shutting them down because they are poorly funded, if you think the federal government failing out them was a problem, dollars to donuts, illinois, new jersey, connecticut or one of the states goes under, its a systemic threat to the whole region. The federal government will bail those out. They should be federally regulated. Thank you for letting us have another round. I appreciate the insight, i meant to say all about about the Federal Reserve Monetary Policy, the contribution and inflationary effects and the whole greater income gap as a result. I said that to mention that i like the idea that i need to dig in, i like the idea on the lower income of encouraging work by giving people a piece of the action, ownership of our country and benefit by folks at the higher income with exponential benefits. I will follow up on that. Thank you so much. Chairman, safe travels. Thank you. That concludes the session. I want to thank all of you for joining me on a brilliant really important topic. Participation in the labor market will continue to grow. However, we know the pandemic threw a wrench into the trend. It has shed new light on challenges Older Workers face. While many stories have focused on financially secure Older Workers leaving the labor force to enjoy their golden years, the closer evidence reveals this is really not the case. They have faced weaker Bargaining Power, sluggish wage growth in the pandemic has exasperated these trends. Addressing these challenges requires Public Policy solutions, many of which you offered that improve the security of Older Workers and strengthen the labor market. Economic wellbeing depends on it. Thank you to our panelists. As we do this work, we will continue to rely on expertise. Thank you for my colleagues for being part of the discussion. The record will remain open for three business days. This hearing is now adjourned. This evening, the National Press club will hold its annual journalism awards dinner. Watch live coverage at 7 00 p. M. Eastern on cspan now, the mobile video app. I will change a bit of the topic to congress, that the fda intends to pay special attention to formula distribution in rural areas. Would you detailed plans to prioritize formula distribution . Let me say the formula distribution is a function not just of the fda but the entire government. And involves the department of agriculture, hhs and the executive branch. But, the basic plan, the first thing was to get production up in the u. S. , to use enforcement discretion. We will probably talk about this later. To bring any international sources, the distribution initially was through the larger chains. Now, there is an intense focus on the smaller stores. That is a matter of hooking up the foreign firms that have not this. In the u. S. Before to smaller areas. That is one of the two areas at this point. You can watch more of the fda commissioner testifying on the Baby Formula Shortage tonight at 9 00 eastern on cspan, cspan now, or online at cspan. Org. The conservative Political Action conference recently held its annual gathering in dallas, texas. Up next, a discussion on the Prolife Movement after the supreme courts decision to overturn roe v. Wade. What a day to be here. The most important thing is over the