Transcripts For CSPAN Hearing On Amtrak Train Derailment 20240621

I look forward to working with my friends in the senate to get that reform bill enacted into law. In closing i look forward for hearing from our witnesses regarding these important issues and i would like to recognize Ranking Member defazio for an opening statement. Thank you, mr. Chairman and thanks for holding this hearing today. I certainly agree with you about the extraordinary importance on the performance of the population of the east coast on the United States on the use of this corridor on a daily basis. In terms of the number of people that use it and the contribution to the economy and what happens when that corridor goes down and i also agree that this committee does have a longterm commitment to amtrak and other infrastructure needs of the United States. Unfortunately, that is not shared by your republican colleagues on the transportation, housing, urban development subcommittee. In fact, on the day of the accident, they cut a 251 million, is it . Or 290 million from the Capital Budget of amtrak. The Capital Budget goes to things like positive train control. It also goes to things like the 140yearold tunnel if that collapses or becomes unusable, the system will totally be out of use for an indefinite period of time or many of the 100yearold bridges that need repair or replacement along that line. Any cuts to the budget of amtrak which has a 21 billion, a 21 billion backlog on Critical Infrastructure investments and maintenances investments and things that do include positive train control and do include bridgeses and bridge safety and do include signal systems and other things that are so outmoded and i dont think theyre using vacuum tubes and theyre sort of before that era. This is not ok. And to further reduce that budget is going to jeopardize minimally the operation of this corridor or even worse, cause an accident directly with the tunnel collapse or bridge collapse or failure of the signal system. We cant point to this accident and say it was directly caused by a lack of investment. Thats true. We still dont know what happened and were looking forward to the ntsb, but we do know that the ntsb first in 1969 proposed that we should move forward with positive train control and we have something called the most wanted list in 1990 and the First Edition of the most wanted list said we needed positive train control and since that time quite a number of people have died in preventable accidents around the country because of the lack of positive train control. Yes. Human error. Thats what positive train control is designed to prevent. Human error. We still dont know if it was a mechanical malfunction. Its a relatively knew train set, but we dont know yet. The point is ptc could prevent accidents like this. It could have prevented many other accidents over the last two decades since it was first recommended by ntsb and we need to move forward with all due dispatch in installing that system on Commuter Railroads and passenger or other Passenger Railroads or the entire amtrak system or on those required critical Freight Lines and particularly those carrying hass douse materials and broken areas. Im pleased we are here today to try and understand better what caused this accident and what to do to prevent it in the future and i dont think well get to a definitive point, but for me the bottom line is we can no longer ignore a 21 billion backlog. We cant ignore were running trains over 100yearold bridges of dubious stability. We cant ignore that were running trains through 140yearold tunnels that need total rehabilitation. We cant any longer ignore the fact that we have signalization systems that are, you know prevacuum tube era that are trying to link into more modern, sophisticated systems. So there is much to be done, and i wish that all our colleagues in congress shared our commitment to infrastructure investment. With that, mr. Chairman, i yield back the balance of my time. Thank you, gentlemen and they will now recognize the subcommittee chairman on railroads, pipelines. Thank you and good morning. First, let me thank you for holding this hearing and obviously, very important. I also want to thank the Ranking Member capuano for quickly going up to philadelphia and really surveying the situation and it was important to understand specifically some of the things that were happening, but let mee me let me talk a little bit about my frustration. We went up there to immediately assess the situation. Individual was already making definitive statements and now three weeks later while we had a brand new locomotive we cant confirm whether or not there was a malfunction with that locomotive and even though ntsb made definitive statements still cannot defend whether or not there was an operator error, cannot identify whether or nots there was an engineer that bypassed the system. The engineer has been working with ntsb, but still cannot verify that the cell phone that was in use whether it was texting or using Cell Phone Service during that time. Its my understanding the engineer has given his password and we still cant identify whether or not there was an issue. The ntsb came out and made an immediate statement a couple of hours after the accident and three weeks later is unable to identify any of these issues around it. I think this committee expects answers. I think these families are owed answers. I think the American Public is looking to make sure that rail safe across our entire nation. Were also looking for solutions. Im looking forward to seeing ptc implemented in a very, very quick manner and i ask that you take a look at this emergency proclamation that was put out, emergency order that was put out by fra. My concern is a year and a half ago when we had metro north, one of the worst accidents this country has ever seen and almost the exact same emergency order was put out a year and a half ago saying ptc was important and that we still dont have ptc on that area of track either. Now a new emergency order saying we will have amtrak on the northeast corridor by the end of the year. Obviously, we have concerns. We are looking for solutions. I think the families deserve to hear what those solutions are and more importantly, those solutions are put into place. With that, i yield back. We recognize the Ranking Member of the subcommittee, mr. Capuano. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Welcome to the members of the board. Im looking forward to your testimony testimony. We want answers and more than anything else, they need to be right and not just speculation. I also want to comment that i know many people along the northeast corridor and particularly those in philadelphia, my friend congressman brady and my friend are watching this closely and they want answers, as well and theyll be keeping a close eye on this. I guess im looking forward to the specific lessons we learned and also the lessons that congress has learned and what should our priorities be. We talk a good game, are we going to fund this or are we not going to fund this . Ptc is not new and not limited just to amtrak. Positive train control issued across the country of every rail line in this country. Are we going to require it or are we not . Everybody here knows we dont want to talk about it and there are proposals floating around congress to delay it even further and we all understand the realities of the costs involved and those are questions we need ask in a serious basis how much responsibility will we as a member of Congress Take on our shoulders the next time an accident happens and we look in the mirror. Have we done everything we can reasonably do . Reasonably do to prevent it, and i think im not looking for scapegoat scapegoats. I am looking for answers as we all are, and i have full faith that the ntsb along with the fra and amtrak will find those answers and again, i want them quickly, but more importantly, i want them right. I appreciate you being here i appreciate the chairman calling this hearing very much. I yield back. Thank you. With that, i would like to welcome our panel of witnesses. Thank you for being here today. First, the honorable Christopher Hart is the chairman of the National Transportation safety board board. Next, joseph boardman, the president and chief executive offer of amtrak, next miss sarah feinberg, for federal Railroad Administration and just been nominated and congratulations as you go through that process. Good luck. The brotherhood of local employ nears and Train Derailment. I ask that our witnesses full statements be included in the record and without objection, so ordered since your complete written testimony will be in the record ill ask you to keep it to five minutes, your statement and with that well start with mr. Hart, please proceed. Thank you and good morning. Chairman schuster and Ranking Member defazio and members of the committee, thank you for inviting the ntsb to appear before you today. Can you pull your my closer the ntsb determined that seconds before the derailment, the train was traveling at 106 miles an hour. Emergency braking was applied but the train slowed to only 102 miles and hour before the data recording ended. Sadly, eight people were killed and more than 200 people were injured. On behalf of the ntsb, i would like to offer my sincerest condolences to those who lost loved ones and our thoughts remain with those who are still recovering from their injuries. Briefly, air is who will explore include track recorder, mechanical signals, operations human performance, survival factors and medical. At i can report to you today. We know a properly installed and functional positive train control or ptc would have prevented this accident. Ptc is technology that is designed to prevent overspeed derailments as well as train to train collisions and they worked protection zones and proceeding through misaligned switches. The accident we have investigated have shown us that we need technology that can step in when humans fail due to distraction, medical conditions or other factors. As a result, the ntsb has called for Train Control Technology for decades as was mentioned since 1969. Present law requires implementation of ptc by the end of this year and seven years after the mandate was signed by congress into law. We know most railroads will not comply with this law. Those railroads that have made the difficult decisions and the safety enhancement should be commented for this leadership. It much have a trance parents accounting of the steps that have been taken to meet a new deadline. Regulators and policymakers need that information to make important policy decisions and the traveling public deserves that accountability. Rail car crash worthiness is another area that well investigate. As you can see from the picture, the survival space in the first Passenger Car was severely com from myselfed. We will fully document and analyze the damage to this car and other cars and make recommendations that the ntsb determines are necessary to improve crash worthiness and improve on recommendations in this area. We have received full cooperation from the crew and their interviews and followup conversations. As you know, we are evaluating the engineers cell phone records to coordinate the timing and voice activity with the accident time line. This process involves reviewing the time stamps from the phone records which are from different time zones with data from other information, such as the locomotive event recorder and the outward facing camera and Radio Communications and surveil surveillance video. When we have clarity on this time line we will release this information to you and to the public. Additionally, the ntsb has called for inward and outward facing video and with audio recordings on trains. Since amtrak uses outward facing cameras at the time of this accident. These cameras can provide critical information with the ntsb as we work to determine ways to prevent future accidents. In this case the engineer states that he has no memory of the events leading up to the derailment and video can fill in those gaps. Im encouraged by amtraks announcement that they intend to stall inward facing cameras and we install audio recordings, as well. We look forward to learning more about the amtrak initiative and i hope they proceed with both inward facing cameras and locomotive audio recorders throughout the fleet. As i stated, we have much work ahead of us and i will keep you informed as this investigation proceeds and im available to answer your questions. Thank you. Thank you, mr. Hart. With that, mr. Boardman, please proceed. Mr. Boardman thank you. Im going to start this morning by offering my heartfelt regret for the recent derailment at frankfurt junction. It was amtraks train on our railroad and were responsible for the incident and its consequences. I regret it deeply, and based on the conversations ive had over the last three weeks that sentiment is shared by everyone in our company. Everything weve done since the accident has been driven by a sincere hope that we can do something, however small, to mitigate the suffering and loss that everyone endured as a result of this terrible accident. Weve been greatly helped in that effort by the people of philadelphia and i would like to thank all of them, but particularly mayor nutter and the staff of the hospitals thank you for everything you did on behalf of the passengers and employees. I should also take this opportunity to know that we want to do everything to support the visa the ntsbs investigation. Ill refrain from addressing matters that are still under investigation. Well be working closely with both the ntsb and the regulators and the fra to ensure that we address the root causes of this accident and to you, ladies and gentlemen of the committee and to our passengers and employees. We run a safe railroad and safety will continue to be our top priority. The northeast corridor in particular has an excellent Safety Record and this is so shocking because it is so unexpected. In no other place in the country is the comparable volume moved. The last fatal accident on the northeast corridor occurred 28 years ago. The northeast corridors Safety Systems are the best in the country. We operate a layered signal system that provides it with multiple levels of protection. There is an alert that engineers are awake. There is an automatic cab control system to prevent train collisions and stop the train if the crews fail to acknowledge or comply with signals and theres the enforcement system, amtrak thats amtraks positive train control system. To stop trains that engineers have failed to comply with authorized speed limits. At points between washington and new york were trained to exceed 125 miles an hour. Its installed in the amtrak that operate the northeast cor door and should be to apply in december 31, 2015. This stops people responsible for Safe Movement of the trains. We operate an oversight and coaching system from the crews. Our engineers and conductors are required to pass an extensive fraapproved Training Program and to develop a high level of familiarity with the route. Probably millions of train movements negotiated a curve at frankfurt junction safely since amtrak took over the northeast cor door in 1976. The system works because generally speaking weve put together a series of layered nets each guarding the previous layer. We rely on these systems where we have not been able to completely eliminate the risk of human error. There is alsz a rick of a gap in the most tightly woven net. The train 188 derailment revealed one such hole in the safety net and in the weeks since the derailment people have asked a seemingly simple question. Why didnt the track have some kind of safety feature involved to force the engineer to slow the train . This is the right question to ask and ill address it directly while providing you a necessary Background Information to understand the answer. In 1990 an ak track train derailed on a sharp curve in back based station in boston and collided with an oncoming mbta train. It failed to slow before the curve. Shortly thereafter industry operator reviewed the nec and other places where the approach speed of a train was greater at which the speed might derail in the curve. If an engineer failed to slow down. At those points we modified the system by installing a code if an engineer a code change point to force engineers to slow down. The southbound tracks at frankfurt junction were one such place. The derailment speed at frankfurt junction is 98 miles an hour. It approached that curve at 80 miles an hour while the southbound train approaches at 110 miles an hour. So in short, when a train approaches from one direction, but doesnt slow down theres no risk of derailment, but if a train comes from the other direction and doesnt slow down for whatever reason there, is a risk of derailment. We, therefore, apply the modification to the southbound tracks so the trains approaching from the north at spees of 110 would receive the signal indication from the cab just before the curve forcing them to slow at 45 miles an hour so that they can pass through the curve sifly at 85 miles an hour. They didnt have the same protectionic stalled because the approach speed was 80 miles an hour which was slow enough that a train could round the curve at that speed without derailing if the engineer failed to slow down. At that time, the notion that an engineer might actually accelerate into the northbound curve was not a circumstance we anticipated and thus, we didnt mitigate for. It was a reasonable decision reached by reasonable experts under reasonable circumstances and since this and similar change points were installed in 1991, the application of this policy successfully prevented overspeed derailments throughout the northeast corridor for about 25 years. That clearly changed on may 12th. The proper response now is for us to figure out what happened and to narrow or eliminate the gap so that this accident cannot happen again. The full implementation of ptc later this year will be a major step forward in this regard until it is full ney service and were working now to implement the measures called for in the emergency order to ensure the safety of the trains and passengers. The most important thing we can do, however is to implement ptc. Amtrak is the nations leader in ptc, we were the only company to have a system approved for use for speeds up to 150 miles an hour. No other class 1 railroad in the United States, not one, is as far along in installing ptc as amtrak is. My belief and the importance of ptc predates my arrival at amtrak. As the federal Railroad Administrator i worked hard to secure the passage requiring ptc installation on the railroads. I still believe the single greatest contribution that my generation of railroaders can make to this industry is to implement ptc as rapidly as possible, and i promise you that by the end of this year this system which will dramatically enhance safety will be complete and operational on the nec. Thank you. Thank you, with that, ms. Feinberg, proceed. Ms. Feinberg chairman schuster and Ranking Member defazio thank you for the opportunity for discussing issues related to the amtrak accident in philadelphia pennsylvania and the safety of Passenger Rail. We extend our deepest sympathies the victims of this accident and to their loved ones, and i can assure them that we will take every step we can to ensure an accident like this cannot happen again. I also want to thank the city of philadelphia, its mayor and First Responders for their heroic and incredible response to this accident. Their leadership was truly remarkable. Let me say at the outset, all of us at the fra are heart broken about this tragic accident. The driving mission of our organization is to keep the public safe and so while every accident matters to us, this accident in particular which appears to have been preventable and which took so many lives and left so many injured is truly painful for the fra family. We continue to investigate the circumstances surrounding the accident. While it will take time to complete the investigation, we have not and will not wait to take actions that will improve the safety of amtrak as well as other pass everyoninger rail operations. On may 16, four days after the accident i directed amtrak to take several actions to resume north of philadelphia. I followed those directives with an emergency ord or may 21st. Amtrak has complied with those directives thus far and amtrak will follow through to implement them. When we released the may 21st emergency order we stated we were considering taking additional steps to direct similar orders at other Passenger Railroads that may have similar curve and speed issues. We continue our work on those directives and we plan to release Additional Information about that work in the coming days. And while the cause of this accident has not been officially determined, we do know that speed was a significant factor and speed, simply put s what we refer to as a human factor. A factor based on human behavior. Human factors remain the leading cause of all rail accidents and they are also the most difficult to address, but today i want to announce that fra is preparing a package of actions that we will finalize in the coming weeks and months aimed at addressing just these kinds of factors, Human Factors, factors such as speed distraction and training. These actions may include additional emergency orders, safety advisories, rule makings, agreements and other initiatives and again, beyond just those next steps, i want to assure you that the fra is firmly committed to continue taking additional actions, as many as it takes that will mitigate the risks and hazards identified in the ongoing investigation. Now there has been significant amount of public discussion about what, specifically, would have prevented this accident which specific technology and which new regulation, but the reality is if we believe that the cause of this accident was speed it would have been prevent prevented by positive train control. As this committee is aware positive train control is the single most important Technological Development in more than a century and it is absolutely necessary to ensuring the kind of safety that we expect on our rail system. Per the congress mandate railroads are required to install ptc on all passenger routes and certain freight routes by december 31, 2015, seven months from now. Fra has been actively pushing the railroads to have ptc fully implemented by the deadline. We have met with the railroads for years on this issue. We have hired staff to assist and oversee the implementation of this technology. We have earned the submission of ptc safety and Implementation Plans and we haven choired with individual railroads and with the aar about their progress and we have worked with the ecc with the spectrum. We have also urged year after year for more funding to be connected at Commuter Railroads and amtrak to implement positive train control. For the past two years as part of the grow america act, fra has requested 825 million to assist Commuter Railroads with the implementation of ptc as well as additional funding for amtraks implementation of ptc. It was grant the authority to review, approve and certify ptc safety plans on a railroad by railroad basis. They asked for this authority in order to ensure that railroads would be forced to work with safety regulators to take other and equivalent actions to raise the bar in safety even prior to full ptc implementation. We believe it is important that even those railroads that fail to meet the congressionally mandated deadline be required to improve safety in the interim. Despite the many challenges facing full implementation of ptc, the fras role is to carry out the enforcement of the deadline mandated by the congress and to ensure that railroads implement ptc as quickly, safely and efficiently as possible. So on january 1, 2016, the fra will be prepared to take necessary Enforcement Actions against railroads that have failed to meet the deadline. Safety will be the fras priority and we appreciate the attention and focus to issues related to the passenger train accident in philadelphia. Again, i want to express our deepest sorrow for the victims and their families, we will make the American Rail network as safe, reliable as possible. I look forward to your questions. You may proceed. Mr. Pierce hello, Ranking Member schuster and the teamsters rail conference they represent, thank you can you pull up the microphone closer. Mr. Pierce ok. Thank you for the invitation to speak today. I first want to express our sincerest condolences 188 and their family. Its a sadly familiar territory for me because ive had to convey the sorrow to the families of 11 members since i became National President five years ago, and i fear that this will happen many more times. Its even more tragic when technology could have prevented a death and positive train control could have saved five of those lives. The ntsb has confirmed that excess speed contributed to the derailment. These facts implicate the railroad industry. Crew size, fatigue, inward facing cameras and the expectations for amtrak. The small percentage of americans who are working locomotive engineers and all Railroad Operating employees are among the most highly skilled, highly trained and highly regulated professionals in the nation. But todays workforce or workplace often creates task overload for engineers and when too much is expected of any system, man or machine a breakdown is inevitable. One of the questions before us now is what level of risk were willing to accept knowing all of that. Most of the industry and not amtrak or vnsf seeks a blanket five to sevenyear extension of the deadline. Although not on the nec, there have been peripheral problems with the spectrum and fcc radio tower approvals and those must be addressed and they do not justify a blanket delay and i urge you not to be stampeded for one. We must remember that ptc is no silver bullet. Its not designed to prevent any accident and any claim that ptc renders the second crew member unnecessary is plainly put, not true. Ptc cannot replace the second crew member because it doesnt do the work of a second crew member. It isnt the second set of eyes and ears to monitor the left side of the train for defects stuck brakes or observe the left side of the highway rail crossings for highway rail grade incidentses or to separate the trains when we have First Responders that need to get access. We urge you to take up the hr1763 addressing those concerns and we think the time may have come to reconsider the 1981 language that eliminated the second crew member on northeast corridor locomotives. While we do not know whether fatigue played a part in amtrak 188, fatigue should be a major concern to all of us. To be frank the 2008 overhaul of the rail hours of service has produced very little progress towards mitigating fatigue. Work schedules are far too variable and unpredictable and instead of dealing with all issues, some have settled on single issues like sleep apnea. I am here to tell you that c. Machines wont address fatigue, caused by variable and unpredictable Work Schedules in order to get the benefit. We must redouble the benefits to fatigue in the railroad industry. I urge for inward facing cameras because it gets louder by the day. Cameras can be an accident investigation tool, but they create a false sense of security if more than that is expected. Cameras dont slow or stop trains, positive train control does and thats the plainest way to put it. Our privacy concerns with cameras are what i would call americas privacy concerns. Many railroads insist on leaving cameras on continuously even when trains are stopped on a siding for hours on a time with crews captive on a locomotive that comprises of 65 square feet of space. Constant surveillance like this we view as unamerican and it does nothing to improve railroad safety. The truth is that some railroads have shown more interest to use camera data to punitively attack employees and that is just unacceptable to us. Finally some things do come down to dollars and cents at least for amtrak which cannot continue to rely on the funding it receives. What we spend on Passenger Rail is embarrassing when compared to china france, uk, russia and turkey. We cannot expect amtrak to run a firstclass railroad when its funded at third world levels. We cannot expect reliable performance that is 75, 100 or 125 years old. Our transportation infrastructure is crumbling around our feet including amtrak yet amtrak is a good investment, a necessary resource and short changing amtrak creates other costs elsewhere. I strongly urge you to provide the resources to amtrak to thrive and grow and not just limp along. I appreciate the opportunity to address you today and we have accomplished much and i look forward to implement the lessons of 188. Ill answer any questions you may have. Thank you very much, mr. Pierce. Well start with a round of questions and i would encourage all members to theres a lot of interest. This is an important topic so i would encourage you to keep to five minutes. If the interest remains high well consider doing a second round of questions, so again please rich the five minutes and there are a lot of folks here they think will ask questions and i will be quick with the gavel so watch the clock. Ill start out. Ms. Feinberg, in december of 2013 with the metro north commuter Train Derailment it was a very similar circumstance. The train was going too fast and the accident required the the fra required metro north to put the codes into the atc system so the trains going at those speeds and now youve just issued an emergency order that literally cuts and pastes that order from two years ago to be put on amtrak. It seems that the next logical step, and i think you said this is right now youre going to look at all of the curves, but dont you think they should have done that after that after the metro north derailment . Should have put out an order for fra, and i know you werent there at the time and wouldnt that have been the logical step at that time was to look at the northeast corridor and the curves. Ms. Pierce we put out a safety advisory urging Commuter Railroads to take a look at their curves and to see if there were additional steps that they should take. The emergency order that went out at that time was aimed at metro north, and i know as you know, emergency orders are very narrow. They cannot be particularly broad. They have to be legally sustainable and enforceable and at the time the fra looked at expanding that emergency order to many other railroads and to all Commuter Railroads and deemed that it would not be legally enforceable and we did not have evidence to show that we had this problem elsewhere. As you may remember, metro north had a series of fatal and nonfatal accidents. They seemed to have a systemic Safety Culture problem and when we looked beyond metro north we did not feel that this was a systemic problem with other railroads. We were not seeing derail ams with other railroads and we were not seeing engineers at high speeds and we believe the emergency order aimed at metro north would only be enforceable to metro north. Legally, you didnt think you had the ability to do the northeast corridor . Ms. Feinberg thats correct. Does the e. O. Today, are you able to enforce it throughout the northeast corridor . Have them look at it or do you have legal problems there . Ms. Feinberg the e. O. That went out last week or im sorry, ten days ago was aimed specifically at amma track. We are looking beyond amtrak to see if we would take similar or other steps at other Commuter Railroads and we went directly to amtrak and others beyond that. Only amtrak. Ms. Feinberg for the emergency order. Does that mean you have the authority to tell connecticut and massachusetts, are they able to be included with that. Ms. Feinberg that would want work for the emergency order thats currently out, but thats what were looking at right now for next steps. See if you can include them . Ok. Mr. Boardman, positive training control. You said in your statement youre committed to getting it by the end of the year. The can you talk a little bit about the process that youve been talking to the last couple of months and i know you were talking spectrum and that was the last step of the equation and can you talk about the cost and the money . You have the mono sdpe can you talk about the spectrum . Mr. Boardman we, at this point in time do have the positive train control installed on the northeast corridor. All sections that we own on the northeast corridor is fine what we had learned along with the freight railroads is 900 megahertz system that exists right now really wasnt providing the capability and high density areas. The decision was that we needed to go to a 220megahertz radio system. That really provides a much better propagation of the signal and a much more reliable service. So what weve been doing is making sure that we finally received approval for the 220 megahertz system within the last couple of months and we have to test it. We have to get the data radios ready and thats what were doing now. So thats where we are. And you learned that because you had ptc operation from boston, new haven to boston . Mr. Boardman thats correct. along with ptc. And the entire stretch from washington, d. C. To boston will be urn the new, increased megahertz. Mr. Boardman for everything we own and control. What would massachusetts and connecticut with the state owned . Mr. Boardman there is a section between new york and new haven thats new rochelle to new hafen that we dont own or control. Thats owned by new york state and connecticut, under the control of metro north. Mr. Defazio thank you very much. Seeing my time has expired and the fiveminute rule, i turn to mr. Defazio. Thank you, mr. Chairman. You implied and didnt expand upon it that youre going to look at the cars themselves whether or not more resilient cars could better protect passengers in crashes, is that correct . Mr. Hart thats correct. Mr. Defazio have you looked at that previously . Mr. Hart yes. weve been looking at Passenger Car crash worthiness for several years. Mr. Defazio what can we design mr. Boardman, i believe these cars are what era . 70s . Mr. Boardman they started being delivered in about 1975. Mr. Defazio and have you asked to replace them . Mr. Boardman we have a plan to rebuild these cars and we are replacing some cars at this point in time. The ones that were built in the 40s. Mr. Defazio in the 40s . mr. Boardman yes, sir. and are you going to somehow improve their resilience in the case of crash . Our expectation is to be able to use Crash Energy Management which is something the entire passenger industry is beginning to do. Mr. Defazio but these current cars dont meet whatever mr. Boardman they do not. mr. Defazio and what would that take . In terms of dollars . Yes. Mr. Boardman if we asked for replacement we would talk about 4 billion. Mr. Defazio have you made a request . Mr. Boardman weve made requests for rebuilding and some questions for replacing. Mr. Defazio ok. and what happened to those requests . Mr. Boardman the requests for replacing was a complex request because if they were longdistance trains or they werent receiving enough revenue for us to be able to pay back on. Mr. Defazio but the bottom line is were you allocated the congress or not . No, sir. Mr. Boardman mr. Defazio so congress denied you the money . Mr. Boardman yes, sir. mr. Defazio again, back to mr. hart, do you believe that we could either rehab these cars hes talking about in a way that would increase resilience and surviveability or do you think they need to be totally relaced . Mr. Hart thank you for the question. Thats one of the things weve been looking into and well look at it here just as we are currently with the ramada accident with the crash worthiness of their cars. Mr. Defazio would you pull your microphone closer, please. Mr. Hart im sorry. yes, both for this accident as we are with the ramada accident in terms of the crash worthiness of the cars. Whether it will be new cars or whether these can be fixed. Mr. Defazio ok. when i look at photos, i mean, the locomotive looks pretty intact and, think, thats new construction and the engineer obviously survived yet that first car ive never seen and i heard some First Responders say theyve never dealt with anything like that before. So, i mean, that implies are there other in other nations or elsewhere around the world where they have modern railroads, do they have more crash worthiness in their Passenger Cars . Mr. Hart that will be part of our investigation is what other countries are doing in this respect is making sure that were the leading edge of crash worthiness on the car. Mr. Defazio ms. Feinberg,y i appreciate that you will push very hard. Commuter railroads are one of the greatest laggards here and theyve asked help of congress and theyre at a loss now to get this technology installed. Ms. Feinberg thats right. weve asked for 875 million to assist commuters, Commuter Railroads and implementing ptc. Weve also opened up the riff program for railroads who are looking for loans that will assist with ptc implementation. So we just completed work on a 967 million loan to mta that will assist with the ptc implementation, and then as we approach the deadline, one of the things we have asked the congress for authority for previously is to work with railroads who absolutely wont miss the deadline. Who absolutely will miss the deadline, to work with them to bring, to raise the safety bar in the interim. Mr. Defazio so they will dodge some sort of interoperating changes to compensate for the lack of positive train control. Ms. Feinberg exactly. And they would have to go through an approval process and work with us. We continue to hold their feet to the fire to make sure theyre working toward ptc implementation. Mr. Defazio and when you look at a step process, those that are really trying versus those who havent tried at all . Ms. Feinberg i would expect it would be merit based. Correct. Mr. Defazio thank you. thank you, mr. Chairman. Mr. Dunham thank you, mr. Chairman. What operations has amtrak made since the accident . What has amtrak made and will they be instituting others . Mr. Boardman we did the the code change on the northbound section of the frankfort curve as requested by the fra. Weve been evaluating the rest of the curves as required by the fra, and also checking checking the entire northeast corridor to ensure we had speed limit signs along the way that all met the requirements of the emergency order. In terms of how we check on our engineers, we have a very robust and regular method that we check engineers. For example, just since january 1st of 14 until now, weve had over 16,000 speed checks of engineers along the northeast corridor. So thats like 35 times a day do we check somebody along the northeast corridor to make sure that theyre operating at the right speed. We have a recurring Training Program, a black Training Program that lasts for a week every year, and they have to be certified on a biannual basis. So we have we continue to do that. We continue any kinds of changes that occur. We continue to provide additional training for engineers. Mr. Dunham thank you. How many curves does amtrak now have after doing this audit that have atc how many do you still have that you want to implement the atc on . Mr. Boardman after the back bay accident and the consensus for what they need to accomplish they identified six curves. One of those was the northbound section of the frankfurt curve. Since fra requested us to look at it under the new circumstances, weve identified at least four more at this point in time. We had 300 curves on the northeast corridor that could meet the newer conditions, and were moving forward with those. Mr. Dunham one of the questions that has continued to come up weve done the reauthorization bill. We funded it fully out of this committee. What guarantees do we have that the northeast corridor profits will actually be used to implement new safety and ptc regulations . Mr. Boardman the way that we have worked with the committee on how were developing a program is to make safety decisions on safety issues, and funding decisions are really about the larger scale of infrastructure not only for the railroads, but for highways and for aviation, which ive been talking about for several years at this point in time, and the necessity for increases in that way. Safety decisions. Were making those decisions and making sure we provide safety decisions. Mr. Denham i guess tp fundamental question is when we pass a broad bill like that, what types of guarantees would there be on the priorities of the spending patterns . Last year amtrak spent 350 million on new cars. That may be an important issue but the question is it a priority of congress . Is it a priority of amtrak . And do the priorities align . Mr. Boardman we think they do congressman. We work regularly with the staff of the committee. With work with all of those interested in both safety and the improvements along the northeast corridor. The sufficiency of funding to do all the things that we want to do, theres always scarce resources. So we have to make those decisions based on those scarce row sources. Scarce resources. But we dont reduce the idea that we need to have a safe railroad. We make safe decisions along the way. Mr. Dunham thank you. And my time is nearly expired. Let me thank you for your efforts. Mr. Feinberg as well as the mayor of philadelphia all coming together for a very, very rapid response. I appreciate not only the collaboration, but certainly the timeliness. And i know speaking on behalf of mr. Capuano, working with you and helping to understand how we can resolve the problems in the future. Thank you. I yield back. Mr. Catalano mr. Cap 10uano thank you, mr. Chairman. I want to thank the board, the panel for the testimony youve had. Its very thoughtful and very difficult decision to make. I would like to ask you, is the ntsb taking a look at the decisions on prioritization of the ptc, or is that beyond the scope of your normal activities . Mr. Hart we would look at the specific event and determine what needs to be done to prevent that from happening again . Mr. Capuano but you wouldnt be in the business of determining whether the priority zigs made by amtrak or others, ptc, lets assume everybody did ptc tomorrow, there cant be implements tomorrow. Every rail company in the country would have to determine what do we do second, third fourth, fifth . That would not be in the normal per view . That would be correct. Exactly how we would lead that to the implement. Mr. Hart thats fair enough. thats what i expected. Miss feinberg, do you agree with mr. Boardmans comments that amtrak will reach the december 2015 deadline to get ptc in the entire northeast corridor . Ms. Feinberg we see no reason they will not meet the deadline. Mr. Capuano and do you have an estimate of time frame for the rest of the corridor . Ms. Feinberg well, beyond the fortheast corridor, other than in michigan, the amtrak decision will be dependent on freights implementing ptc. So that could take some time. Mr. Capuano do you have any estimate on the cost of that . Ms. Feinberg the cost is in the billions. Billions have been spent. They have billions further to go. Mr. Capuano multiple billions of dollars to the rest of the am track system . Ms. Feinberg yes. Mr. Capuano and what habit the rest of the class one freight railroads . How much would that cost . Ms. Feinberg i actually thought that was the question you were just asking. So again billions. Mr. Capuano what about the short lines . Are they implementing positive train control or just for the class ones at amtrak . Ms. Feinberg its for class ones and for Passenger Railroads. Mr. Capuano so the short freights will not be doing it . Ms. Feinberg we are working with the short lines a bit separately. Mr. Capuano what about Commuter Rail . Will they be doing it . Ms. Feinberg yes. mr. Capuano what about subway systems . I would hope the fta would be working with you on that. Ms. Feinberg we work closely with fta, and they work closely with their organizations. Mr. Capuano so even under the best case scenario, that the government was flush with money, it would take multiple billions of dollars and many years to get from where we are to where we want to be on positive trade control across the line. Is that affair assessment . Ms. Feinberg i would agree with you on multiple billions with a b. In terms of multiple years, i worry we are approaching that position. But we believe there is a congressionally mandate edd mandated deadline. We intend to enforce against it. This is not a new requirement for railroads. Mr. Capuano mr. Hart, have you taken a look at the accident whether the seat belts would have helped or not . Mr. Hart yes, we are looking at that. Mr. Capuano so that will be part of the final report when you have one . Mr. Hart yes. mr. Capuano because i just road the train up to philadelphia. There are no seat belts on the train. Yet i flew down here today from boston. I had a seat belt on the entire time. And it would strike me that i dont know. I have no idea and im looking the forward to your report, that seat belts would be something that should be considered both to prevent death and injury. Mr. Hart we will be looking at that. As part of the survivability aspect. Mr. Capuano if they recommend seat belts in passenger trains is that something you would pursue . Ms. Feinberg it would certainly be something we would look at. There are different opinions about the requirements of seat belts on trains. Mr. Capuano different opinions . Ms. Feinberg yeah, well i recognize that seat belts might seem like a good solution in the event of an accident t there are also people who tend to be up and Walking Around between cars during an accident. The fact that you would have to harden the seats in order to put seat belts into the seats. Mr. Capuano i understand about the current figurations but i would suggest talk to them about automobiles x about planes. The concept of seat belts, i was under the impression it was no longer debatable that seat belts in an accident at any speed, preferable to no seat belts. If thats the case, maybe ill take mine out of the car too. Ms. Feinberg we would certainly work closely with the ntsb just as we do on every recommendation. But the hardening of the seats that would be required would cause more injuries in the accident. Mr. Capuano so were back at it again. How many people will have to die or get injured before bewe take the next step. The same questions weve had with automobiles. The same question with planes. No, sir. Ms. Feinberg not a cost benefit issue. Simply how do you keep the most people inside the car safe. Mr. Shuster thank you, with that mr. Duncan is recognized for five minutes. Mr. Duncan miss feinberg, last week secretary of fox appeared to agree that this accident was not necessarily caused by lack of funding. In fact, his exact quote was i dont think you can categorically say that more funding would have changed things. Do you agree with that statement . Ms. Feinberg i think he was referring to the bep behavior of the engineer. I do think there are issues yes. Mr. Duncan mr. Boardman, i noticed total operating revenues of amtrak have gone up from 2. 4 billion to 3. 1 billion about 700 billion increase in funding. And on top of that, the government has given you 1. 4 billion in additional funds each year. And im assuming that you felt that amtrak was moving fast enough in installing positive train control because you said in your testimony that you were ahead of every other railroad. Is that correct . Mr. Boardman we are ahead of every other railroad. Mr. Duncan and im also assuming that you were shocked by this accident because you testified that its been 28 years since you had a derailment caused fatality fatality, or fatality caused by derailment. So railroad passenger travel is still about the safest method of transportation. Is that correct . Mr. Boardman we believe that yes. Mr. Duncan and did you ever tell this committee or the congress that you didnt have the funds to move fast enough on ininstallation of positive train control . Mr. Boardman we did not. Mr. Duncan all right. miss feinberg, how do you intend to what Enforcement Actions would you take against railroads that arent moving fast in you have, and would you would a railroad be given credit for instance, if one railroad is a little bit behind another railroad in installation, but they have a better Safety Record, or maybe they have the best Safety Record of any railroad, would they be given credit for that good Safety Record . Ms. Feinberg we have having an internal conversation at fra now about how exactly we will plan to enforce against the deadline. Just as we discussed previously, there are some railroads have behaved here better than others. Certainly, and we dont want to punish railroads further ahead for the behavior of railroads who have not done any work on implementation at all. So were having an internal conversation. We have discretion within the statute on how we enforce against the deadline, it can include anything from very little enforcement to daily civil penalties. Mr. Duncan all right. thank you very much. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Mr. Shuster thank you, mr. duncan. With that, mr. Serros is recognized for five minutes. Mr. Saros thank you, mr. Chairman. You know, i ride the amtrak just about every week. I ride the amtrak just about every week. And this accident really hit home. Miss feinberg and mr. Boardman can you speak to the future of amtrak and Passenger Rail if Congress Continues to use patchwork approach to continued improvements . Mr. Boardman well, i would like to say, mr. Sires, that my concern has been the reliability of the railroad. The reliability of what we do for our hardware on our system. The reliability of our use of tunnels. Whether its in new york or through the baltimore tunnels. That our reliable on the portal bridge thats ready to be rebuilt that doesnt always shut properly. So the funding for infrastructure on the northeast corridor is absolutely behind the curve. In the last reauthorization of our funding in the pria act, there was a commission established out of all the states, the federal government and amtrak, along the northeast corridor, and thats where the 21 billion backtjt came from of the necessity for us to rebuild corridor corridor. We also have a requirement because of the growth of traffic on this corridor. Were handling over 2,000 trains a day on the corridor, amtrak does, is that we need more capacity. Which means we need new assets well. Some new tunnels into new york. Another new bridge going into new york especially. And we need to fix this point that we have. From my perspective, thats where the funding is really needed. We make safety decisions based on safety. And the infrastructure decisions were being made based on the available funds. Mr. Sires thank you. Mr. Hart, i just cant understand this is 2015, and were still analyzing whether seat belts would have made a difference. I still agree with the congressman that all these cars and planes, they have shown that it works, and i dont understand why in 2015 were still analyzing this. And in terms of people Walking Around in the train, i mean, people get up and walk in a plane too, right. But you take your life in your hands when you walk around these trains back and forth, so can you answer that . I dont see why we have to analyze this anymore. Analyzing this to what . Mr. Hurt thank you for the question. Were looking at the total safety. Not just the seat belts, but there are several seats that can be detached. Were looking at the totality of circumstances on how to protect the occupants. Mr. Sires well, i got to tell you, looking at the seats, it just seems logical to me that seat belts would make a difference. And to wait to analyze it more and more and more, i dont get it. I would be comfortable wearing a seat belt, and i go on the train, monday, tuesday thursdays and fridays. I dont see it. We have to wait for this. Miss feinberg, can you talk to that . Ms. Feinberg in my experience, the ntsb is not shy about recommending improvements to safety. And so we will work closely with them, and anything that comes out of the accident we will work very closely in. Mr. Sires will you say this is one of the cheapest accommodations that you would make . Ms. Feinberg on seat belts . mr. Sires no, i would not. Its more expensive than other accommodations . Ms. Feinberg its implementing seat belts, and again, implementing seat belts on trains would require the change of every seat, which would again, expense is not the priority here, but we would have to harden all of the seats. Mr. Sires thank you, mr. Chairman. Mr. Shuster that would cost billions of dollars is what youre saying . Ms. Feinberg yes. mr. Shuster thank you. Thank you, mr. Chairman. First of all, mr. Hart, i have a copy of the metro link crash report from 2008. Youre familiar with that. Mr. Hart yes, i am. and in that, you had two recommendations, major recommendations. One that we have cameras installed. Inward looking cameras . Yes. Mr. Micha and then you also had the positive train control recommendation, correct . Mr. Hart yes. mr. Mica i want to talk about both of those. Lets go back to the 2008 report f you just look at it. That wasnt the first time you recommended cameras or audio devices, correct . Mr. Hart correct. mr. Mica in 1997, after a 1996 crash and no operating crew members survived. This was an amtrak train near silver springs, maryland, you recommended. Thats r 979 recommendation. Then you had another accident with no surviving crew members that occurred in 1999 in bryant, ohio, is that correct . And a recommendation which is r979. The first recommended fra that they install these devices, and then the second one was back in 99. Also recommended that the fra install this. Then your recommendation in 2005, there was a crash of a cn Freight Train in mississippi. Ntsb made the following recommendations to fra. Is that correct, sir . Mr. Hart yes, thats correct. Mr. Mica what did fra did, miss feinberg . Ms. Feinberg previously the fra has not taken action on mr. Mica they have not taken action on any of these. Ok, and then 2008 was also a recommendation. They did not take action on that, is that correct . Ms. Feinberg that is correct. mr. Mica in fact, its been very difficult. In fact since then, many freight rails have installed those devices. Are you aware of that, maam . Ms. Feinberg yes, sir. Mr. Mica in fact, but its been difficult. In fact, they had to go through lawsuits. I want this to be entered into the record. Heres Kansas City Southern was attempting to put into cameras in the cab. They were sued mr. Comstock and his group. Not only will both unions fervently apose the lawsuit, they will ask the court to join them from going ahead with a plan. Could we put that in the record, please . Thoost cameras and history and nothing being done. Lets talk about financing these and positive train control. You just recommended youre going to have fra financing available . Ms. Feinberg the rif program does have financing available. Mr. Mica ok, since 2012, how many riff loans have there been . This feinberg i believe there have been three. Mr. Mica two up till this year, i think. Well, a total of three. The joke is there are more fra administrators, weve had more fra administrators than weve had rif loans. So you have the capability to loan money if you need adjustment and you need to get to us. In fact, the private sector has the responsibility for installing positive train control. Theyve actually run into some problems, havent they, with fcc . So another agency has delayed this. Part of the problem with uz native americans and approval by fcc of those requests. Isnt that true . Its not all the freight railroad. Some of that has been delayed. I would like that submitted for the record to all show that there have been problems with fcc. In fact, do you know how many licenses fcc has done per year approved on average . They do 2,000 a year. You know how many the Freight Company is approved to get this done by the end of the year . Ms. Feinberg in terms of antennas . Mr. Mica its 22,000. Theres a backlog. And its not right to penalize the freight trails for delays by an agency and things beyond control. When you say youre going to take them to task, thats not the the right thing to do. Just Getting Started here, mr. Chairman. Give me about 10 more. I yield back the balance of my time at this point. Mr. Shuster i tharjnk the gentleman. Miss norton thank you, mr. chairman. The focus here has been on positive train control. Im leery of silver bullets. And i note miss feinberg testified Human Factors continue she says on page six of her testimony of train accidents. I think this train was going at what was it . 150 miles an hour at that curve . 102. 106. No mr. Pierce, on page six of his testimony says although there has been concern about sleep disorder, he focuses on poor lineup information and far too many surprise calls for work. And he says we have identified these were more than a decade. They show the variable work cycles, where engineers move from shift to shift, routinely contribute to fatigue. Mr. Boardman, on november 25th i wrote you a letter concerning precisely the issues of fatigue, and i must ask you today particularly considering that these very tracks carry volatile substance as well as passengers i must ask you about the amtrak proposal to recon figure Work Schedules for train and engineer Service Employees at Union Station and service elsewhere on the northeast corridor. I would like to know if you are continuing to reconkonconreconfigure these Work Schedules even after this accident or whether you have stood down on the Work Schedules for the time being. The routes that were changed along the northeast corridor remain. And the kinds of difficultsties testified to in termsover unpredictable skenls doesnt really exist at railroads. Unless theres unpredictable weather or if we have a problem out somewhere on the Long Distance trains. Theres a pretty predictable schedule that occurs for amtrak engineers. So you are mandating 12hour shifts for tne employees. Theyre not mandated at 12hour shifts. They have a period of time that they have between the Work Schedules that they have. Mr. Pierce, let me ask mr. Pierce. Mr. Pierce, would you comment on what mr. Boardman has said and on this notion o f poor lineup and surprise calls to work. Whether that continues and what the effect has been on workers. My comments were inclusive of freight and passengers. And because they interact on the same tracks, we view that as a related issues. Amtrak jobs are scheduled much more so than the freight environment. There are cases where shift changes that come and people rotate from one shift to another do contribute to fatigue. Our comments were intended to at least note the things that can contribute and its been identified by the ntsb for a very long sometime. And its something that we still try to continue to get our arms around. Could i ask the witness from ntsb whether you are looking at fatigue along with the obvious absence of ptc, if you are looking at issues of possible fatigue, im concerned about this. Im assumeing we dont have people ordinarily riding the trains that go 100 miles an hour around a curve. Im asking if youre looking at what may have caused this engineer to be driving at excessive speed around this curve. Yes, we typically look at fatigue in all accidents. We are looking at it in this accident. We have been recommending for years fatigue management programs to determine issues like sift changes. Have you worked at the 12hour work shifts as whether or not those are consistent with safety and these surprise calls . Weve looked at a number of methods of work shifts and cycle shift changes and made recommendations these need to be made to look at the total picture and base it on science. Thank you very much. Thank you. Mr. Gibbs. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Mr. Boardman, im confused. On the ptc we talked about this track, i think it was a conscious decision. First of all in your testimony you said on the southbound that was instituted. But on northbound it wasnt because i think i read a report that it was you said the speed maximum speed you can get up to was 80 miles an hour in your testimony. Is that correct . No, sir. No . Its not. Its not ptc. And it is not interrogation. Its a maximum allowed speed at 80 miles an hour. And the turnover speed on the corner is 98. I understand that. But i think i read in the report the reason it was on the southbound and ptc was implemented on the southbound i just want you to understand its not positive train control. S in not positive train control that were talking about here. Its automatic train control. Its just a major difference on how it operates. Thats all. Oh, ok. So automatic train control is on the southbound track . Yes, sir. And not the northbound track. Yes, sir. So when you were talking about megahertz, that was different . I was talking about train control there. Theres no positive train control in the southbound. Its automated. Theres none at all. Theres four codes. They were really made initially for not having one train run into each other on automatic block system. Im trying to understand this a little better. Since this was a new engine, this engine, h this train have the capability to gain speed faster than previously thought . They have a difference performance metric, just like we have three or four different kinds of locomotives out there that have different characteristics, so it wornt surprise me that it does. Ok, back in 2013, in a hearing you told mr. Shuster the biggest priority was the northeast corridor or Long Distance services. I believe you responded at Long Distance services. In light of this accident, are you looking at revisiting that . I mean, the big question today is why wasnt ptc implemented sooner in this highly traveled northeast corridor . You know, where dollars reprogrammed others in the country for Long Distance services . No, they werent. We made decisions based on safety, and we knew what our scheduled time was and the deadline was going to be december 31st of 2015. So we were working against that and resolving the problems that we moved along with on that process. Ok. Mr. Pierce in your written testimony, you talk about ptc replacing the second of the cab. Twoperson crews were determined, ptc would have prevented them. Do you agree with that, or not . There is one example cited, i believe in red oak, iowa, that was not a ptc preventible accident, when two trains get into the same block as we call it, of signal, there is no meaningful way to avoid collision in that circumstance so we not believe it can replace the second crew member buzz it doesnt always do what he does. The majority of them will be prevented, but not all. Miss feinberg. Apparently its not where i thought some of it was. You know, billions of dollars cost. I would defer to amtrak on the actual cost because i think they have predicted it. But its less in terms of what they have implemented and how far they have to go to complete implementation. Mr. Boardman. Im sorry. I didnt hear the base question. In my previous question that ptc is not implemented at all in ptc quarters or . Whats the estimated cost . 111 million is where we are for the ptc. Thank you. My time has expired. Thank you, mr. Gibbs. Miss edwards. Thank you very much, mr. Chairman, and thank you to the Witnesses Today. I know theres still a lot of facts and many many r questions we have to examine before we get real answers, but theres some things, and i want to follow up with miss nortons comments. On may 12th, my understanding, mr. Pierce, is that the engineer who was operating was doing so under a new rule, under a new controversial work schedule that began on march 23rd of 2015, and that included shorter turnaround times on most runs that had happened before march 23rd. I guess im concerned for the workers were consulted prior to the the new work schedule as to what they believe the impact would be on them . Yes. The unions are in discussion with amtrak about the skenling of the workforce on the assignments that youre talking about. The ape assignments in place do not violate federal hours of service and they are not constricted by the current contract language. Its something the parties work out between themselves as the best ways to assign the jobs and our representatives on amtrak are involved in the the negotiations now. And did you express concerns to a. M. Mtrak about the schedules or the inclusion of the schedules in the new modeling of scheduling . I know our representatives have scared edshared our concerns over the schedules, yes. And do you feel its been incorporated edd by the rule in place. Im not sure i understand the last one. Do you think the concerns you expressed about including the demands on scheduling issues that impact the workers have been appropriately included in the new work requirement . I dont think the process is completed yet, so i comment comment on what the final product will be. Ynd the parties are discussing it now as to what the appropriate assignment and the respite time should be between the runs. And to mr. Boardman, can you describe for us, if you would how you incorporate fatigue as an element of the modeling when it goes into the Work Schedules. I cannot. You dont incorporate it in there . I cant describe if we have a modeling for fatigue in there. I know in this particular run there were no changes. It was the same schedule. But in developing the model what is it that amtrak does to incorporate worker fatigue engineer fatigue in the model . In the terms of whether we would have sufficient rest for the employee, we ensure that thats the case, but having a model kimpbtly from a mathematical model, im not sure of your question. Ok, so mr. Hart, when you examine what it is that the number of things that may have gone wrong, how do you look at fatigue, and how do you look at the modeling for Work Schedules . We start with the 72hour history of the person involved and look at what that reflects. If that commands us to dig deeper and find out what kinds of programs does the employer have, that would result in these the 72hour pass that this employee encountered, then we would dig deeper. Then we would start tw the 72hour history. And miss feinberg, have you has the fra engaged in a process of implementing recommendations, previous recommendations from the ntsb . On this specific issue, we have done work on tag teen and generally for quite some time and are now working on comprehensive rule making that would address fatigue. Among others. So when recommendations because we have done this when there have been, you know transit accidents and other things, when recommendations come from the ntsb, how do you decide if its not a requirement, they are recommendation, how does the fra decide to implement them. It seems that many of them remain on the list forever until theres an accident. And then we look at the recommendations again. Well, i wish it were as easy as the ntsb giving us recommendations and us implementing them. But it doesnt work that way. We have to enter into a rule making, or we would have to go into an emergency order, which probably wouldnt stand up in court. But generally a lot of times we would have to enter into a rule making that would take years. There are occasionally recommendations that we may not agree with, and chairman hart and i will write back and forth together to talk about it. Our staffs will Work Together to see if we can come together on it. But when i arrived, we had 72 outstanding recommendations. I think were down to 63. We meet weekly and work to clear the the deck every week. My time has long expired. Thank you, chairman. Thank you, miss edwards. Thank you. Among other thing, and there are members who would defund, cut back on amtrak generally, this accident, and this tragedy pointed out the importance of amtrak, i think in ways that we should observe. And i think, mr. Boardman, maybe you can speak to that. Because i view transportation of goods and people up and down the corridor as a system. And what we noticed in those days days, and you were back at work very kwekly. Ch a matter of days. A tremendous increase in some of those tickets and difficulties on the highway. I wonder if you and miss feinberg would speak to that anecdote anecdotely. Certainly. I believe that youre right. I think that people understood i think intellectually at first that shutting down the railroad was going to cause a Major Economic blip for feel that wanted to do business and conduct their work in that particular part of the railroad. And then i think they understood it after almost a week, much more emotionally and in their pocketbook because of the problems that occurred in that period of time. They can take one or two days but when it became a shutdown for that period of time, their personal economy had suffered. And the mobile and the Business Community had suffered, and was suffering from the sin creaseincrease in the number of cars that were on the highway and the inableility to find a seat. I read the tickets were over 200. I read one report where they were pretty high levels. I think one of the things the aviation people did say is the last seat is always much more expensive because the way they price their services. But it was definitely a problem. Miss feinberg . If im remembering the numbers correctly, i think its 100 million a day entity. And so any time service is shut down on a portion of the northeast corridor, it has a dramatic impact. Were talking about making sure the northeast corridor is making sure its in a state of good repair. Were fairly well concluded its not in a state of repair. The one bridge over 100 years old, that could shut down virtually. And it could be built if it were funded, and that is a point in the system that could wreck everything for a long, long time. And so the 100 million a day in a week would be 700 million, whatever. Whatever. An there are multiple choke points like that. The tunnels underneath the hudson, the baltimore tunnel, it depends where, but there are multiple choke points like that. You and mr. Pierce have disagreement about audio and inward facing cameras. I can understand both points of view. But i would like to give you a minute to maybe explain yours more thoroughly. Clearly you have a difference of opinion over privacy and what mr. Pierce referred to as unamerican. Yes, thank you for the question. The more we know about what caused a crash, the more specifically we can recommend remedies to try to prevent it from happening again. And thats the the Additional Information that we get from video and audio sources that helps us to be more specific about what caused a crash and be more specific about our recommendations. So would you say as a public ser servant that its not too much to ask . Well, Congress Asked us to improve safety, and thats one of the ways were trying to improve safety. I think our position on cameras has been misrepresented. Theres no legislation in effect that govern the legislation. And railroads are running programs on their own they have imposed or implemented from the people being filmed. We have made i dont know how many proposals go through the process. We met to try to come up with ways to have a reasonable implementation. We have not satisfied our goal yet. My time is expired. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Miss frankel, youre recognized for five minutes. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Well, one of the great things about being sort of at the end of the questioning is to get to hear all the good ideas. And so this is what so far ive heard suggestions for cameras, seat belts, hardening of the seats for seat belts. More training, more employees, better infrastructure, positive train control, and i know that and i join my colleagues in extending sympathies to all the folks who lost love ones who are injured. And i know there are those back home very angry wanting to know why we cant do more, why we dont do more. I think its pretty obviously. You give billions of dollars in figures every time we mention one of these suggestions. So my question is from a practical point of view, what do each of you recommend as the best way to proceed that will keep travel affordable and recognizing this congress has put a sequester on itself . Humans make mistakes. Thats fundamental. The engineers are a very good population of people. Theyre hard working and try to do the right thing. They make mistakes because theyre humans. Thats not criticism. Thats a statement of facts. Humans make mistakes. Thats why positive train control is the most important single backup to respond to human error. Ill stay on the positive train control for a minute. And i believe we will be done on the spine of the the northeast corridor by the end of this year. That will contribute the the greatest leap in safety for the northeast corridor and positive train control in this nation should be done by this generation of railroaders. In terms of if infrastructure on the northeast corridor, it is no different than what is happening to our interstate highway system and to our aviation system. We as a nation must begin equity investment, even if we have to find other ways to do it with third parties, Public Private financing, it has to occur for the future. Or our economy will begin to suffer. That needs to happen. In terms of Human Factors positive control is the main factor. Fatigue management and bringing our infrastructure up to state of good repair. I think positive train control. The only thing not a machine on the locomotive is the crew. And they are humans. And it would be like walking a tight rope without a net not to have ptc, and this comes down to a discussion over what level of risk were willing to take as a nation. And whoever wants to answer this question. Could you explain why, what is the difficulty of getting positive train control. Is it just the cost . Is it getting the airwaves . Is it the theechnology . What is the biggest obstacles . Ill take the first stab at it, at least. For amtrak it has been repcently getting the spectrum of radio that we really need to ensure the reliability for a system that needs to be vital and needs to be fail safe. And that has been the hold up. We moved it quickly with the ftc. The testing has occurred and we will get this done by the deadline on the northeast corridor. So do you believe the ftc has been responsive enough . Or could they be more helpful . We think theyve been very responsive in the last couple three weeks. Yes. How long have you been trying to push through. We began to run into problems with this in 2012, and they begin to point us to the private sector to buy the spectrum. Miss feinberg. Funding is certainly an issue. Spectrum has been an issue. Ptc is a complicated technology. It requires, you know, a back office. It requires the antennas, the spectrum transponders. It is a complicated technology and it takes time. You know, the fra requires railroads to submit a safety Implementation Plan to us so we can go over that plan with the railroads, provide edits and changes and so that we can working to to get them to a place where theyre able to implement it. Weve received one safety plan from a railroad. It was more than 5,000 pages long. And it was appropriately long. So it is a massive undertaking. Its complicated, and its expensive. We were able to get back to that railroad and provide them with feedback so they can moveforward and start implementing. But it is certainly complicated and expensive. Thank you very much. And i yield back. Let me remind members that we have about 20 members waiting in line with seven still before the gavel, and it is quickly approaching 12 00. If there are any members that would like to submit their question in writing, this committee would be happy to accommodate them. Mr. Rice, youre recognized. Mr. Chairman, point of information. Yes, sir. Did you just ask that members who may wish to submit their questions in writing, or are you limiting the people to ask questions allowed . There is no we are not dictating when this committee will adjourn. Were only saying if there are members that would like to, by choice, enter questions in writing, we would certainly accommodate them. Thank you. Mr. Rice. Thank you mr. Chairman. Ill start with mr. Hart. Mr. Hart, weve talked about a number of Safety Measures that could be added that would increase seafty on these lines and some were cheaper. We talked about the positive train control. Weve talked about adding seat belts and having to bulk up the seats. We talk about inward facing cameras among others. Between those three, which would be the cheapest to implement, do you think . We dont get into the cost of implementation. We look at what most effectively improves safety. Thank you, mr. Hart. Mr. Boardman, which do you think would be the the cheapest among those three . Well, for us, because we have already gotten the positive train control moving forward its not a great expense at this point in time. And the overall part of it. But we dont think the inward facing camera ises an outrageous cost either. Thats reasonable cost. Pretty reasonable price right . Why would they increase safety. Theyre just taking a picture. Because we can use them for efficiency testing. We can see whats going on with the engineer itself. You think it may change the the behavior of the engineer some . We have a Pilot Program and a system that we operate now, metro link, where there is much less stress than what the engineer thought they were going to have, and actually its really helped in a lot of situations. Stress. Mrs. Feinberg, among those three, the seat belts and inward facing cameras and train control, which would be the cheapest to implement, do you think . The most inexpensive would be inward facing cameras. You would get more bang for your buck with ptc, but we are moving forward with both. Mr. Pierce, which do you think would be the the cheapest . Positive train control . I think the jury is out on inward facing cameras. The technology has not been measured to crashworthiness standards. The technology failed in several collisions, so the data was not available. It didnt provide the post accident testing supposedly being provided for. Why dont we have inward facing cameras . Its been recommended and suggested. Miss feinberg, why dont we have those now . We do have them now. Many have implemented inward facing cameras . Why dont we have them on all the trains . Because some have chosen not to implement inward facing camera. We are moving ahead with the rule making, although we may recommend inward facing cameras l. Why havent they been mandated . Well, the issue has really been for us to mandate them. Its been that railroads are moving ahead with them regardless and should we put some sort of mr. Boardman, why are they not mandated . I dont have the answer to the mandate. Weve been supporting that it occur. Why havent you required it . It would be very inexpensive to put a camera . I have required it at this point. The decision is we are doing it. Why hasnt it been required until now . Because i did not make the decision myself to do that. We have been supporting the raf Safety Advisory Committee and discussing how this who would have argued against putting in inward facing cameras . A lot has to do with how the data is going to be used, and whether its going to be appropriately used. You know, is it privacy issues with engineers . Is that one of the issues . I would have to litet the engineers answer that. Mr. Pierce . Its not only a privacy issue, as mr. Boardman said, its the way the cameras are utilized and how theyre implemented. There are no safeguards . Safeguards. All its doing is taking a picture. What do you mean safeguard . Why wouldnt that have inward facing cameras . A cheap way to increase safety . Youre suggesting that were going to change behavior, and that suggests theres intentional bad behavior, and i would argue thats inappropriate or not an accurate representation. The bottom line is we had weve had proven cases of bad behavior. Two years ago there was a driver who said he fell asleep, i believe. Going into a curve. And people were killed. We dont know what happened in this case. I dont consider fatigue bad behavior, congressman. I would think if theyre on camera, they might be a little more aware of their surroundings. I do not think a camera will cure fatigue. It will not make you less tired. I suspect that it will would be a great increase in safety in terms of change behavior. I want to ask one more requestquestion. Mr. Hart, you said you were looking at phone data the last three weeks, complicated by changes in time zones. How many time zones do you cross in philadelphia on this line . Mr. Hart, i would ask for a Quick Response. The time zones were talking about is in the phone system. Its a california based carrier, california numbsers in. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Thank you. Miss brownlee . Thank you, mr. Chairman. Mr. Boardman, i wanted to ask i feel pretty confident based on you testimony that at least for the northeast corridor that youre going to be able to complete pdc in a timely way by 2015. I wanted to know whether you believe we have the resources and technology for amtrak at least to complete ptc across the country by 2015 . Well, amtrak doesnt have the responsibility to actually implement the ptc across the country on host railroads, for the most part. There have been a couple of class three railroads that believe, one in kansas city, and the other in st. Louis, that believe we need to be the ones to implement positive train controls in those communities, and the rest of it is primarily the class one railroads, and our part would be to implement it in the locomotives. And well be ready, we believe, when we have their positive train control available. So amtrak in california, for example, youre saying youre not responsible for ptc there . Yeah, if if its not our line, were not responsible. I see. Ok, ms. Feinberg, in terms of implementation are there penalties imposed for railroads that have not met the ptc recommendation. Were having an internal conversation at fra on how to go against the deadline. How will you complete the task and the public would know . In the coming weeks i would say. In the coming weeks. I also wanted to follow up with you just in terms of your opinion in lieu of full implementation of ptc. Do you think twoperson crews is something that would be an appropriate safety net for the short term . Doesnt sound theres going to be full implementation by 2015 certainly the airlines have two crew members. Do you think thats something that is could be a short term or interim safeguard . Certainly that is one of the things were taking a close look at and we believe could be an interim solution along with probably additional backstops as well. And there are some places where that twoperson to people in the cab may not be possible but you could have additional folks on the train communicating back and forth to each other. Why would two people in a cab may not be possible in some instances . Not enough room. Mr. Hart, also the same question to you, do you believe that a twoperson crew might be an interim solution before ptc is fully implemented . It would be based on experience, we dont find two person crews are an improvement over Single Person crews. Why is that . It seems common sense if you have another two people driving a train, that if one person falls asleep, then the other person is there to take over. In theory thats true but two people can fall asleep and be distracted were not finding from experience and it is limited because we dont have that much twoperson crews. Based on the limited experience, were not finding twoperson crews to be a Safety Improvement over Single Person crews. Thank you, sir. Ill yield back, mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, thank you. Its my understanding you would like me to yield some time to you. Thank you. Just one quick question for ms. Feinberg, safety is important across the entire country and my home state of california, ptc is slow to be implemented as well. 3. 7 billion was put to california high speed rail. That money has been transferred to the cal train, to electrify cal train, 400 million of that to help implement the trans bay terminal. Why are we not transferring money to do ptc on the connector routes in california . If youre asking specifically if we would transfer money from the High Speed Rail Authority into ptc . Youre using stimulus dollars in many different places in california for electric fiction and changing the terminal but not using it for ptc, which its my understanding high speed rail will need ptc and connector routes should have ptc already. Why are we not using money that will revert back to the federal government next year if its not spent . Why are we not using it for ptc in california . It will be going to ptc in california. Most of our money that has gone out, 600 million has gone towards ptc. You havent been able to spend it quick enough in california . No, i believe it will get spent on time by the end of the year. Just for the record, were spending california high speed rail dollars on many different areas in california to do other things other things, far behind on ptc and it is not been a big enough priority to use those stimulus dollars on ptc in california. Sir, if youre asking if we can take stimulus dollars that is going to high speed rail and transfer to ptc, i dont believe that would be in keeping with Grant Agreement but we can take a look at it and come back with a formal response. Thank you, mr. Perry. Reclaiming my time, ms. Feinberg, theres been an implication made in this committee that congress itself and maybe certain individuals, Certain Party are responsible financially for the mishappen in philadelphia. I want to get the facts straight. Its my understanding as well fra stated that a lack of Public Sector funding may cause unwanted delays in fully implementing ptc. And it also according to my records would cost 131. 2 million. 131. 2 million to fully implement positive train control on the northeast corridor, the track that amtrak owns. Now over 12 years they lost billion dollars in food service and inspector generals opinion that amtrak paid large bonuses to ineligible management and staff. The 31 million amtrak were sub sid sized to 250 a piece and this particular portion of line makes anywhere from 400 to 500 million a year. It seems to me plus we give amtrak to the tune of 1. 3 to whatever 2. Something billion dollars a year, how come they cant spend 10 of what they lost on positive train control and is it congresss fault is it fras assertion that its congresss fault that ptc wasnt funded in the northeast corridor . On amtrak, they said they will implement ptc by the congressionally mandated deadline of to2015 and we agree they can meet that deadline. Its not a funding issue . Amtrak does not have a funding issue in terms of ptc. They have said they will meet the deadline. Amtrak just to be clear, amtrak does not have a funding issue with ptc by the deadline its not congresss fault its not implemented timely, correct or not correct . Amtrak specifically has said they will meet the deadline. We have had many conversations about the need for our request of the congress to give additional assistance to Commuter Railroads to meet the deadline. Weve also requested additional assistance for amtrak to meet the deadline. One last question, mr. Chairman, before i came here, i think about 2009, 800 billion of stimulus passed and majority to go to infrastructure. If it was so much was concern, how much was spent understanding 131. 2 million, a very small percentage, if you look at that, would be required to fully implement ptc in the northeast corridor, how much was spent allocated by this congress, how much was spent if its such a priority . Well have to get back to you. Thank you, mr. Chairman, i yield back. Youre recognized for five minutes. As former member of the strong supporter of rail, my heart goes out to family and individuals who suffered in the wake of amtrak Train Derailment that occurred recently in philadelphia. I personally want to thank todays panelist for the hard work and dedication and employees. I want to particularly thank you for your leadership but my question i know you all monitor the trains and rates of the speed. Can you discuss what safeguards that you have in place to check speed of locomotives and engineers . Yes, maam, we have a regular series and i dont think you were here earlier when i said we looked check the speed weve had 16,000 checks of speed since january 1st of 14. We do that radar and downloading the equipment in the lowcomotive to find out what speed they are traveling. I was here the entire time. I wanted you to repeat it again. Thank you. Positive train control, that is one of the most important aspects of safety and what we talked about the cars itself. And we talked about the crew. Its the combination. Can expound on that a little bit . Positive train control is a system thats layered on top of several systems we operate today, one being positive train control. Every time theres a temporary speed change, we use a manual system because the dispatcher and the engineer has to write down what has occurred here. We use from the manual system up to a positive train control system in order to ensure that we operate safely and do run a safe railroad. Other than positive train control and the facing cameras what are some other Safety Measures you think we need to put in place . Thank you for the question. Weve heard questions about fatigue fatigue, looging into that. Infrastructure in terms of maintenance the state of good repair, we always are looking at that. Were looking at the totality of circumstances, the best situation is for the train to stay on the track in the first place. We want to provide survivability for passengers if it doesnt stay on the track. You all acted quickly and i want to thank you all for that. Do you think theres additional training that the employees need . That is something were taking a look at now. When i referred to the potential the package were putting together that would address potential Human Factors, thats something well take a close look at. Mr. Pierce, what are in your concerns about the training of employees for a disaster i want to commend that the employees did an excellent job. I was being it was being monitored and started to get calls as soon as it happened and i want to thank you for that. What additional training do you think the employees need for disaster . I think the training that the employees receive is in large part the normal operations Type Training, disaster training is obviously something that we dont hope well ever have to experience. Im not sure exactly to what extent the difference is as to how much actual accident Type Training that the employees are receiving on amtrak right now. I have to defer to mr. Vortman on that one. So what amtrak does today as Emergency Management system, were working in concert with First Responders up and down the corridor and across the country with Police Departments and have an incident command structure that was a requirement in the we have a Family Assistance Program and work with the ntsb to stand that up properly, we depend on those First Responders in the community such as and i talked about it earlier, philadelphia in this particular case. But we have an ongoing Good Relationship to make sure we have the proper drills across the country. My time is running out, with a i would like from each of the members in writing, what are some of the Infrastructure Projects that we need in the northeast corridor like the baltimore terminals and other things to make sure that we are we in congress are doing what we need to do because when my colleagues trying to imply that money is not an issue, money is an issue. And some of the tunnels and we went up on the train and we talked to people along the way. We know that there are many tunnels and infrastructure conditions that need to be upgraded. I ask for a response. We will provide that list for you. I would like to [ indiscernible ] well provide the questions in writing but ask for a response on infrastructure needs from each of you, thank you. Youre recognized for five minutes. I thank the chair and witnesses for their testimony this morning. Following up on questions that might have already been asked, i want to ask you about what seems to be in your testimony a right to privacy. In the locomotive is that the position of the brotherhood or not . I didnt say right to privacy. There are privacy concerns about the storage of data. I dont think anyone wants to see their last minutes if they are killed in a locomotive collision to be floating around on youtube to be honest with you. There are steps that need to be taken to make sure that the data is protected and the data is used for what everybody seems to think it is used for which is post accident testing. It seems thats covered and other modes of transportation and industry. To date it has not been worked out. There is no regulation, fra has started the rule making process on cameras but until theres regulation, the railroads are running programs, each one independent of the other and the data storage is something thats different on every railroad. Right, but however gruesome the photo or whatever the situation might be or whatever goes on youtube, when youre on the job you would agree theres a right to privacy . Youre kind of putting words in my mouth. Our concerns are many its a yes or no question. You might have answered already. You dont agree theres a right to privacy, is that correct. . I dont see it as a yes or no answer. There is a right to privacy . There should be a reasonable installation of cameras and have not been afforded that opportunity yet. Do Airline Pilots have a right to privacy in anything recorded on the black box or anything in the Atc Communications or anything like that . Its my understanding faa made a presentation to the group about the model that the Airline Industry uses and we have that was at our recommendation because we would embrace that. It is not been offered to us. Ok, but you would embrace it if that was the case. Yes. Following up on congressman perrys line of questioning on the 800 billion spent on stimulus projects or other things regarding im sorry, a head in the way. Do you have any experience or recollection or numbers to give us regarding how much of the 800 billion was spent on ptc on your railroad . 800 billion . Yeah, part of the stimulus package. No. Any of the money or any of the subsidized money that was given 800 billion is not a number that rings with me, of course amtrak would love to have 800 billion, dont get me wrong but any stimulus funds whatsoever, how much was spent on ptc in your estimation . We did not spend any stimulus money on ptc per se unless there was some particular part of another project. Why not . Because that wasnt what it was used for. It was looking for Real Investment in the bridge, for example, and also rebuilding a whole session of the railroad. Was there a prohibition . Im sorry . Was there a legal prohibition in your experience against using stimulus funds . They were looking for Infrastructure Projects was there a legal prohibition, do you know . I dont know. Can you add anything to that . Do you think theres a legal prohibition against using stimulus funds for ptc . Im sorry, i dont think theres a legal prohibition against i dont think so. Why do you think we didnt use funds for ptc if thats the case . Or do you have any estimation of the amount of stimulus funds that might have been used . To take all of the stimulus dollars and give it to amtrak and class one to implement ptc im not sure that is something that occurred to anyone. I dont think it was even discussed. Really . Its being discussed like its a no brainer high priority that has been wanting to be done for decades since 1969. This never occurred to anyone . By the deadline were approaching now, i do not know if it was a subject that you all discussed. Im asking if you discussed it. If anyone in the industry, the regulator all testifying here today that this was such an important provision whos concept came become in 1969 i think is what Ranking Member defazio stated. In all of that interim time and having the stimulus money, no one thought to use that money for ptc . My question is, if so, how much was used for ptc . We would ask for a Quick Response but this is another one we would ask in writing for all of the stimulus dollars. Mr. Chairman, if you can get a date from the witnesses when they can respond. Absolutely, well get that final testimony if we can get it on the record, that would be great. Ms. Feinberg . Were happy to get that to you all. Youre recognized for five minutes. Thank you. Mr. Boardman, the 800 billion of stimulus funds, isnt it true amtrak got 1. 1 billion total . Im sorry, sir . Of the 800 billion stimulus funds, 240 billion was tax cuts not spending, isnt it true amtrak was allocated 1. 1 billion not 800 billion . I think it was 1. 4. 1. 3. 1. 3. And the total cost of that was basically congress instructed you to spend that on projects that were ready to go as fast as possible, Infrastructure Projects, is that correct . Thats correct and you spent it on what in broad terms . Night an tick river bridge and some additional Infrastructure Infrastructure bridges and so forth, which i assume had you not spent on those it would have been safety problems . Yes. So the basic ok, thank you. Amtrak has requested for fiscal year 2016, now does this go beyond finishing the implementation of ptc by the end of this calendar year . Yes, it is off the northeast corridor. This isnt on the spine of the corridor. That will be done by the end of december. But we have other work we need to get done. Would it have been done sooner if they had more funds. If they had come a while ago but not now. Two or three years ago it could have i am plimt plemted . We had a dependable amount of money to move forward, yes. To switch topics for a moment, the tunnels into new york have been described as ticking time bombs because of damage from salt water during hurricane sandy. Whats the stalt us of those tunnels . How much funding is necessary to prevent that from happening. We found out this winter what would happen if they went out of service we had so much ice regular ice patrols had to knock down the ice in one of the tubes. When that happened you went from being able to move 24 trains an hour down to 6 trains an hour. So we got a lot of complaints from new Jersey Transit and from amtrak riders that they had to wait outside one of the tubes in order to get into new york city. Thats exactly what going from 24 trains an hour to 6 trains an hour is the only rail access into new york city from new jersey would have a significant effect on the economy . Absolutely. Can you quan fi that at all . I will for you. Ill get back to you with that answer. Please. I understand that amtrak is a 21 billion backlog of projects on the northeast corridor. Is that arc rat . Thats what the commission developed and produced, yes. Do you have any source of funding for the 21 billion . No more so than what we get each year. How much is in the budget that the house just passed . 1. 39 was what we had last year. Thats the total, thats not just for projects not just the projects 21 billion necessary to get to a state of good repair in the northeast corridor, how much was appropriated for that purpose or available for that purpose from the amount of funds voted by the house a couple of years. It was some dollars specifically identified for advancing our gateway system but not capital dollars for us to actually build it. No capital dollars at all. So zero of the 21. Thats a pretty good ratio. Now, weve heard that amtrak will have ptc, positive train control in place on the spine and whats the status of ptc implementation on other Commuter Rails and what will it take for commuter lines to meet the deadline . They are struggling, very much struggling to meet the deadline. We just completed a loan to the mta for almost a billion dollars to assist with their ptc implementation. That will go beyond the deadline. Do we have any estimate as to when the Commuter Rails across the country are likely to be able to implement ptc . It varies dramatically, anywhere from 16 to 18 to 20. We know the possible safety let me just say that the transportation appropriations bill includes no money for commuter lines such as metro north to install ptc. Amtrak funds this out of Federal Capital grants which are cut by 290 million. Despite the fact theres a 21 billion backlog to achiefly a state of good repair, we spend about 50 billion on highways and about 16 billion on 17 billion on aviation. And 1. 2 billion on rail. Theres something very wrong with the appropriations process and for us to sit here and not understand that the fact that congress has been starving amtrak has a large role to play in what were talking about is putting our heads in the sand. Mr. Costello. Mr. Castillo thank you, mr. Chairman. Let me start with ms. Feinberg, i want to thank you for your time and attention the day following the tragedy when we went and visited the site. My question to you relates to 49 cfr part 220, restrictions on Railroad Operating use of cellular telephones and other Electronic Devices, the final rule in which the secretary essentially delegated to you, do duties to exercise the authority and prohibit the use of personal Electronic Devices that may distract employees from safely performing their duties. Railroad operating employees were increasingly using distracting devices in a matter that created hazards. Im going from the federal registrar dated 2010. I found this part particularly interesting. Relating to access to employees personal cell phone records, fra has decided that a provision mandating that railroads require operating employees to provide access to personal cell phone records in the event of an accident is unnecessary for fra purposes. Fra currently uses its Investigative Authority to obtain personal cell phone records when appropriate. Is that what youre doing now . Through your investigative arm not in thats how youre getting the personal cell phone records . Ms. Feinberg thats correct, following accident we subpoenaed those records. Representative inward looking cameras, if you had inward looking cameras, would the operating engineer at that point in time you would be able to ascertain whether or not a personal cell phone was being used is that correct . Ms. Feinberg the phone should be off and stored. The inward facing camera would also provide us information after an accident, which would be useful. We wouldnt even be needing to have this debate at the moment. Representative my question next turns to mr. Pierce. I understand that you were i think making a distinction between privacy concerns and right to privacy, i sort of intu intuited that from your testimony and questions you were answering. Can you talk more about this reasonable implementation . Because im a little concerned when were talking about the privacy concerns of an individual operating engineer who would be taped while in the performance of duties because essentially you have to balance that against the Public Safety considerations of the 200 or 300 plus passengers who are in the train. I think a lot of us are concerned that your testimony seems to suggest that we need to really focus on the privacy concerns of the operating engineer and not some of the Public Safety assurances and some of the information that would be elicited if you had the inward facing cameras moving forward. So i want to give you an opportunity to sort of share with me a little bit more share with us a little bit more what it is about these privacy concerns that you hold so dear on behalf of your membership . Mr. Pierce thank you, i do want to first comment about the comments made earlier about litigation when cameras started. The unions didnt go to court to block cameras. The railroads took us to court to install them. The record needs to be clear on who actually started the litigation effort to install cameras. Cameras so far have been on freight railroads on class one properties. They run 24 7, whether the train is moving or stopped and we have crew members that can sit on a train up to six hours without moving. Weve asked the railroad shut the camera off if theres no safety sensitive duties being performed and they refused. Representative what about operating . Mr. Pierce right now they run 24 7. The parts we have taken exception to, im trying to identify, we havent said that there should be an outright prohibition, we said that the implementation has been done in a way there are disputes over it. Representative do you believe theres a sound Public Policy in favor of having an inward facing camera on the operating engineer at all times during the moving of the Passenger Rail . Mr. Pierce i know thats where the industry is headed representative that could be a yes or no answer. Mr. Pierce just so you know, all of the activities of the engineer are already recorded on an event recorder through the technology of the control stand. All we get is a picture of what it does. Representative my time is up. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Thank you, mr. Chairman, just to round out the point on funding well, first of all, ms. Feinberg, congratulations on being named the future administrator. I want to point out throughout this process my time with the committee youve been exceptionally responsive and incredibly hopeful to us in so many ways and im excited to see youre going to be continuing in this role. On the point on funding, the point is in the grow america act you included 800 million for Commuter Rail systems to help them speed up the implementation of ptc, correct . Ms. Feinberg right. Representative were not just worried about amtrak, but all types of commuter systems that cant do this on time . Amtrak is the only one who has their act together on this right . Ms. Feinberg they are the only one that has their act together and metro link is also in good shape and seta is i am pretsive. One of the great tragedies about the accident, amtrak is in the best position of all of the major rail systems were concerned about to implement this Life Saving Technology and there are real and important questions about what happened here and why. But among them is not some issue of amtrak lagging behind other systems in its implementation of ptc. Ms. Feinberg thats correct ahead of everyone else. Representative isnt it therefore beside the point to talk about what amtrak keeps doing with respect to the federal funding, the point is that the federal funding is absolutely critical for the other systems like metro north, we know it would have been prevented by ptc. I want to thank you again for approving a billion dollar, 960 million loan to get metro north moving faster with the installation of ptc. You worked with us closely on my legislation, including the Passenger Rail bill with the assistance of mr. Dunham and others, to make explicitly clear that funding is available for all systems because money is the issue, right . Ms. Feinberg correct. Representative and of all of the people who ought to be apologizing for these accidents that keep happening because we dont have the Safety Systems in place, the United States congress maybe ought to be at the top of the list, wouldnt that be fair to say . Ms. Feinberg i think that would be fair to say. Representative and i think when mr. Boardman comes in here, whos clearly heart sick over this episode and doing everything he can and it will meet this deadline and expresses his heart felt regret, it might be nice somebody on this committee express the heart felt regret for United States congress not having its act together in this area and so many others. Isnt that fair to say . Ms. Feinberg yes. Representative thank you. And weve got 30 accidents and 69 deaths and 1200 injuries and this is the first one on amtrak because we havent had one on amtrak in a quarter century. Ms. Feinberg thats right. Representative where the funding is most needed where most of the deaths and injuries are occurring. Ms. Feinberg thats right. Representative thank you. So much for whether funding matters for safety. I have a couple of specific questions, mr. Boardman, maybe you can help me out. Northbound trains approach at 80 miles an hour at this junction and southbound at 110 miles an hour. They install the system where they knew they had to slow down to get to the derailment speed of 98 on the southbound side. Isnt it a fact that the required speed through the corner 45 Miles Per Hour when you slow down, you dont just slow down to a speed equal to or less than the derailment speed you go down about half of it, right . Mr. Boardman go down to 50mileperhour speed for a safety measure from the 98. Representative can you help me understand if thats the case the recommended speed going northbound even though the approach is below the derailment speed, its not recommended that you take it at 80, right . Mr. Boardman weve been going around that corner since the 30s in the same construct is there without representative at what speed should an engineer take that . Mr. Boardman 50 miles an hour. Representative 50. It was just an oversight not to put the atc system there to force the reduction in speed to 50 . Mr. Boardman no, what had happened because of the back bay incident, the entire community of safety folks, along with regulator looked at what was reasonable for us as an industry to do. What was reasonable was was to make sure we put in six locations a cochange, only down to 45 miles an hour and that was where you were approaching at a speed that would overturn the train in the corridor. Representative i see. Thats what were working on now. Last question and couple of seconds left. Can you tell us again in plain english why we dont know whether this operator was on the phone three weeks after the accident . You said it was a time zone issue . Cant we just get the records . Wouldnt we know whether he was on the phone. The engineer was very cooperative and gave us the password to his cell phone. We have all of that, we found more and more complicated issues relating to the fact that the text is on one time zone and calls on the other, it is far more my complicate d than anyone imagined. Representative but we will be able to determine if the phone is being used at the time of the accident is to mark yes, you can coordinate that with the number of different time sources to verify the accuracy. Its crucial to get that right. Representative thank you, sir, for the extraordinary work your agency does, ive seen it up close and its real extraordinary how professional and efficient you are. Thank you. Thank you, mr. Chairman, i want to follow up on that. After three weeks im very frustrated we dont have a time line today in any way, shape or form and to the limited extent we have one indicates the train departed at 9 10 and crash is at 9 21. In terms of the phone records to follow up on that, since the requirements say it should be turned off and stored, do we know if the phone was turned off and stored during that timeframe . We know there was use of the phone on that day, may 12. Thats what were trying to narrow down to get specifics of your question. Representative i just texted back my daughter, yes,ky baby sit on friday, 11 42. Thats on my phone now. If it was in california phone, it might say 8 42 then figure it out. Three weeks after, why cant we take those 11 minutes and have a time line for the victims and their families to have that type of information . I dont understand what the hold up is. We had no idea it would be this complicated when we started down this path either. Its been far more complicated than any of us anticipated to not only get the records but Verify Representative was the device turned off . We dont representative if the device was turned off you could not have used it between 9 10 and 9 21. One of the things well determine in the time line is when was the device turned on and off. Representative given the three hours in california, your time line would have certain limits. If you had to use the phone within certain hours, you would know whether its possible or not like if my phone said 8 42, then you would know theres an issue. If it said 7 42, you would know its not possible. Im trying to understand why this is so complicated. We found discrepancies within the carriers own time systems where it didnt even agree with itself. Weve got a lot to work out representative how much would it cost us to not allow an engineer to have a phone in the cabin . I couldnt speak to that. Representative would it cost anything . My understanding is the railroads can implement their own stringent rules. Cant we way were not allowed to have devices in the cabin period, why cant we do that today . I would defer on that question to ms. Feinberg. Ms. Feinberg railroads can put that into place. Representative that would not be a cost issue . Ms. Feinberg i dont think so. Representative you would feel comfortable we wouldnt three weeks later whether someone had a device and using it. It would make our investigation easier if we didnt have to look into it but we do representative if we implemented a policy that said dont have devices in there period, in you need to use a device, you step out of the cabin, use it when youre stopped but it cannot physically go in there. Is there an issue by why isnt that done . Again, i have to defer to the regulators on that. Representative does anyone think there would be a cost related to removing personal devices from the cabin . Use of the devices is already prohibited. Youre talking been an additional prohibition that the ntsb would investigate compliance with that prohibition. Representative would kind of spot checks to know whether or not someone is using their phone or texting during their time in the cabin . Certain locomotives are equipped with cell phone detection equipment. Representative did this cabin have that . I dont know the answer to that at this point. Representative it seems like the no cost Safety Solution here is today to say dont bring them in. Whats detectible is the signal in and out and whats not, was somebody manipulating the phone but not sending representative you did find the cell phone was in the cabin that day . Yes. Representative and was it turned off or not . Do not know the answer to that. Representative does anybody know whether it was turned on or off . How can we not know that at this point . Thats the regulation. If it was on, that was a regulation violation. I dont know if thats known. I dont know it at this moment. Representative anybody here with the Witnesses Today know that . Ms. Feinberg i would say that as the ntsb leads the investigation, we partner and do our own investigation. There has not been a concern that we wont figure it out. Its a little complicated. Representative this is something so easy to find out quickly, then we could know this action could have been taken the day after. Until we know, we know there was a cell phone in there, why dont we just say youre not going to bring your cell phone in the cabin anymore . Unless someone can tell me a safety concern my grandfather worked in the railroads for 40 years without a cell phone. Im trying to figure out is there a cell phone issue here that you need to have it in the cabin for safety purposes . The gentleladys time expired. [inaudible] could you turn up her microphone . We will develop a very precise time line. You are recognized for five minutes. Representative thank you, mr. Chairman. I want to thank all of our panelists today for your hard work. As a representative from connecticut, i have to say that the folks i represent are concerned. And were talking about thousands of people in my district who ride the lines every day to get to work. And so it is in our shared interest for their safety and also for the integrity of the system. I mean, we talk about numbers of deaths confidence in the system is vital. So i want to start in part with that and again extend my congratulations to you, youve been exceptionally responsive and helpful and i hope the senate moves rapidly on your confirmation. Theres been a lot of things that have been talked about at todays hearing and i want to make sure were getting clarity on the record, particularly because of this issue about positive train control and lines owned by amtrak as well as the other lines that we have passengers riding on particularly in the northeast corridor. Is there anything else that is needed to get positive train control on all portions of the northeast corridor regardless of who owns the track . We know weve got funding for a commitment by amtrak to meet that but we have lines owned in connecticut, substantially, a bit in york, up in massachusetts. Is there anything else in terms of fundsing or authorities that is necessary for that . Ms. Feinberg well, in terms of funding, there are funding struggles throughout the system on ptc. In terms of authority, were concerned that some railroads will miss the deadline and well lack the authority to force them to implement interim measures that will raise the bar and safety between that moment and when they actually have ptc implemented. We asked and think thats appropriate. If the deadline is going to be missed, we want to make sure that railroads are taking steps to raise the bar in safety before they implement ptc fully. Representative if you can follow up with us on the specific authority you need, i have commuter lines dropping down from danbury and waterbury through new britain, these are really important for us to check. Ms. Feinberg we will do that. Representative following up on the question from chairman shuster, and its a similar question, is there any action you need from congress to followup . Obviously, we want to get high speed rail in. If were getting derailments well below the acela i take from time to time is running, is there Additional Authority that you believe you need from us to make that possible . Ms. Feinberg i dont believe we need Additional Authority on the curves, amtrak has supplied us with the curves they are focused on. Well go back and make sure we agree on actions moving forward on those specific curves. We are continuing to work on next steps that go beyond amtrak on curves and speed. We will have more to say on that in the coming days. I think there is going back to chairman shusters question could more have been done following metro north incident . Im not sure that comes down to authority so much as regulators. The tools that we have are sometimes blunt instruments. Sometimes, Emergency Order Authority is incredibly narrow and cant be as broad as we want. Safety advisories are recommendations and dont have to be followed. And rule making process takes years so representative thank you, for you, mr. Boardman, i have some concern given the importance of these accidents so much emphasis being placed just on ptc. Im looking at billions of dollars in infrastructure upgrades and in particular if you could talk about how are you going about prioritizing the bridges that are 100 years old and more that the northeast corridor runs across these bridges every single day. What if any help, in addition to the additional funding which i joined my colleague and not only seatmate but adjacent districts that we need more funding to address the issue of infrastructure. Which is also safety. If a bridge goes down, that is also a safety concern. Can you talk about the prioritization . Mr. Boardman certainly, i think one of the most important things that occurred was in the commission that was established in the northeast of all of the states, federal government and amtrak to look at what projects need to be done and how we needed to prioritize for the future. A lot of that conversation thats occurred has really identified projects that need to be done. A lot of them bridges and tunnels and the major impacts we need to get done. They have been identified in one particular case, we have ready to build the portal bridge which would be a about a billion dollar project. Our priority is there for these Infrastructure Improvements which will also improve safety. Its in place. Representative thank you. You are recognized for five minutes or it. Representative thank you, mr. Chairman. I was on the route 24 hours beforehand. I represent new york one on the east end of long island. Some other members were traveling with me as well as we are here, i would be remiss if i didnt offer my thoughts and prayers to the families of those whose lives were lost. Those who were injured. Its a terrible tragedy that took place. I kind of wish that congress had been willing to all of the entirety of congress would be willing to allow us and the families to mourn for amtrak and for the employees of amtrak, everyone impacted by it. I wish there was more time dedicated towards mourning. Unfortunately the next day, and i think its pretty shameful and disgusting, that not even 24 hours go by and we have an entire party here in congress that was blaming a potential future funding cut on an accident that happened yesterday. I mean, ive heard of spin, but this is a first for me. I mean, literally you wake up the next morning and instead of dedicating your day towards mourning the loss of those i mean, families that were so greatly impacted, you come onto the floor throughout these halls and you stand in front of the cameras and without saying my heart goes to the family or offering up emotional remorse immediately youre blaming a potential future funding cut on an accident that happened yesterday. I would challenge anyone to find an example of this in history. You couldnt even wait 24 hours. It started the next morning. The engineer was obviously traveling over speed the speed limit, and thats the reason why theres an investigation. Its very important to amtrak that they finish the project of getting ptc operational , specifically on the northeast corridor. I know that this body passed legislation. Being from the northeast and knowing how profitable the northeast corridor, acela trains are, its good we see that money get reinvested back into the system. I have colleagues in other parts of the country who may think otherwise and thats ok. I am parochial in a way to my home state, my home region. I came here from new york state, state legislature, served on the Transportation Committee. The nta, which is the nations largest Mass Transit System for that locality and heard metro north talk about the long island railroad. We found a way, republicans and democrats working together to try to create a second track between farmingdale for the long island railroad. There are Infrastructure Improvements all over the new york city metropolitan area with the involvement of people in new york city, up in albany, working with the nta and unions trying to figure out how to invest in the infrastructure. And its also important to note the amtrak legislation passioned passed by the house, discusses the component that allows the mta to apply for 1 billion in financing. But the investment can be made, it would be very nice if my colleagues on the other side of the aisle, when we asked its a great idea, how are you going to pay for it . I want to be part of the discussion to figure out how we can invest in our infrastructure across the country. Thats what i believe is a matter of principle. But with my final minute and getting back to you, just so i understand something, are there texts on the phone from 9 10 to 9 21 . We know there is text and voice activity that day. Were trying to narrow down to specifically what time that day. Representative but the phone itself, like when you look at the phone and scroll through texts, it doesnt show a text from 9 10 to 9 21. I do not have that answer yet. Representative i understand the frustration. It seems like something that if it gives you access and you know the answer in five minutes. We were surprised by the complexity of it ourselves. Representative the entire route, i know you are, it has always of these cooperation from the Cell Phone Companies and all of the cell phone towers and pings on towers. For the families that the real advocacy, to try to get your answers and amtraks efforts and all of you here for that cause, the frustration on our end too on behalf of constituents and families who are eager. They understand when some things take longer than others but maybe they dont understand why we dont have more answers as far as the engineer goes. Thanks for being here. Representative thank you. I very much appreciate and support all of the efforts in the northeast corridor but i shift west of the mississippi for just a few minutes. At 11 19 on june 24th, 2011, a tractortrailer driving north on u. S. 95 slammed into the side of amtrak 5 on the cal zepher line at a Railroad Grade crossing outside miriam in rural nevada. The driver of the truck was at fault and been on duty for nine hours and he failed to the train horn and went ahead and crossed the track. The impact created a fire and killed a driver and train conductor and four passengers and injured 15 other passengers and one additional crew member. Ptc wouldnt have stopped that , but the investigation that was done by ntsb outlined concerns about side impacts, strength requirements for Passenger Cars and what happens with impact when it comes from the side. If you look at the report they issued, two recommendations were to develop side impact crash worthiness standards, including performance validation for Passenger Rail cars. Once the side impact crash worthiness standards have been developed, to require that new Passenger Rail cars being built to this standards. I would ask you, ms. Feinberg, has any research been done on these types of side collision impacts . Ms. Feinberg yes, were doing research now on side impact. Representative is that it . Can you give me any more information what that entails or will you be making recommendations or changing regulations . Ms. Feinberg that research is ongoing and we can get your office a full report. Apart from that, we have done a tremendous amount of word on grade crossings generally which which continue to be a problem and have a slight uptick this year and we have a multifacetted approach generally but on side impact collisions our research is ongoing. Representative if i can ask mr. Boardman, going back to the first question that mr. Defazio asked about buying new trend cars, if this study comes with the recommendation that new requirements should be made for train cars that meets some increased standards for side crashes, are we going to get any new cars . How many cars have we gotten . You look at the pictures of the cars so crashed compared to the locomotive. Would you elaborate on that . Mr. Boardman they have a lower section and i went to that accident site. Representative i think you were the assistant director at that time . I realize you were involved in the report mr. Boardman i was ceo for amtrak. I went out there at that time and looked at what happened. It was a double tractortrailer. The side impact is what killed our conductor but it was really a signal case that the back trailer came up and hit the top of the train that did the passenger death and injuries. I think there would be im not an engineer, mechanical engineer, there is a huge problem at that particular location. It was a very strange crash. Because there was total visibility for the truck that went into the side of the train. And if you were going to protect for that, by replacing the equipment, you would have major engineering that would have to occur and id have to see whether any such thing could happen. Representative you disagreed with the recommendation they need to look at side mr. Boardman no, i dont disagree with the recommendation at all. I think it would be a very difficult thing we cant retrofit, so talking probably 250 of the by level type cars and 3. 5 to 4 million a piece for each of those cars. It would be a substantial cost to doing that and take stretcher probably 10 years to make those kinds of changes. What about as you buy new cars . We have bought not bought new cars and a substantial period of time. Representative we have heard money about infrastructure, but what about all the old cars . Mr. Boardman the plan right now what we did with single level cars and with the locomotives, were paying for that out of fares that we receive in the northeast corridor. On the Long Distance train theres no additional revenue. It is completely deficit operation and we dont have those resources to borrow money on the rift program or any other way to replace those cars. Representative that seems to me to be a problem. Mr. Davis. Representative thank you, mr. Chairman and to the witnesses being here today. Going back to earlier statements we made during the q and a, you mentioned there were six possibly ten, if im doing to math right, vulnerabilities identified to what we saw in northeast corridor, the northbound train going toward the curve. You mentioned these types of curves existed and have you installed cochange points at those curves and was there a cost to do so . Mr. Boardman you have to go back to the back bay incident, 1990 and when that occurred and they looked what the needed to be done to protect that case. What they identified were six curves that they needed to treat. Those included the north side of frankfurt curve because the entrance speed of 110 was greater than the turnover speed in the curve itself. So they put a cochange point there. Representative is there a cost caller mr. Boardman i will get to that in a minute. On the south side there was not a need to do that because the approach speed was 80 miles an hour. Therefore even if that engineer failed to slow, they wouldnt overturn. There was six places along. Representative total of six . Mr. Boardman there is a moderate cost to do anything. Representative whats the moderate cost . Mr. Boardman i dont know. The automatic train control system really provides an idea whether theres something in front of you on the tracks. The way you do this cochange is you really have a bit of fiction here. You say there is something at the curve. That is when you put the cochange point in. It was not built to do positive train control. The other four, what we looked at is the change that occurred here and in that conditions that exist on the south side and we put that code change in on the south side. We looked at what conditions or what curves meeting that condition need to be changed and thats what we told fra we would work to do. Representative i dont have a lot of time left. But i have a lot of questions. If you could have your staff get back to me on if you found any other amtrak corridors with the same issues and when you estimate youll be done identifying and actually installing cochanges on those areas identified as vulnerable. Mr. Boardman we would only do this on the northeast corridor. Representative i have a amtrak corridors in my state of illinois. Are there any other vulnerabilities there youve identified . Mr. Boardman you have them all over the United States. They depend on the expertise of our engineers and how the signaling system works and there are locations across the country where that occurs. They depend on what we call a form d control point. Representative in a report, amtrak was criticized because amtrak did not include the funding required and annual budget requests. This is directly from the i. G. Report here. Your engineering and finance departments cannot explain this. Can you . Mr. Boardman what we saw was in that particular report in 2012 was that they were looking for us to have come to congress to specifically ask for ptc service. That was not what we operated with with congress. It was almost like a block grant of capital projects. We identified what it would cost to meet this requirement by december of 2015. Its about the safety of that and not about the dollars of that. Representative im reading the report here and it said transportation official stated his departments purposely omitted ptc installation costs for amtraks fiveyear plan and annual budget requests. He cited his believe that including the costs we can amtraks negotiating position with host rail lines. Thats concerning for us. I appreciate the job you do. Thank you for being here. I yield back the balance of my time. Thank you. Representative thank you. Im going to try to make my comments brief since im separating him and each one you all for lunch. You guys and gal have been most generous with your time. I appreciate it. I would associate my comments with what the congressman said in regard to the losses of life. It was a very sad day. What i think is important in the wake of any sad day or tragedy is to go in and do the investigation. Make sure as a society we dont overreact in ways that would make the system less sustainable from a financial standpoint. We dont overact in ways that impinge upon the cornerstone of the American Republic individual liberties and do not overact in ways that become so constraining so the practical effect is people say im walking. The safest of all mechanisms would be to put people in those things that you strap into it at a public fair. Youre locked in but from the standpoint of practical effect you cant use your laptop or talk on phone. With that in mind it seems to me in the course of the hearing two ideas that have come out that would be dangerous in terms of overreaction to the real world tragedy that each one of you all have had to deal with. One is this idea of seat belts. If you think about it, theres a reason theres seat belts in the airplanes which is you have all kinds of vertical and horizontal considerations based on air lift well outside of the control of pilot. We have been in those thunderstorm moments where its like oh, my goodness, whats happening next . That does not occur on train. What we all know is when plane crashes, wearing a seat belt or not, tragically a lot of people die. Same thing with school buses. A lot of kids ride to and from schools daily and in most cases im aware of there arent seat belts for those kids. I think it would have dangerous effect. I would love to hear your further thoughts on this if you were to impose seat belts as a reaction to this tragedy. My sense is it would be a step too far. The other would be directed to mr. Pierce, this notion of moving to two men in the front of the train. It seems to me its an added financial burden to the amtrak system which is already straining to the tune of more than a billion dollars a year in terms of subsidy and other. If you look at the whole notion of moving toward positive train control, the idea is to take care of that possibility of human error which wouldnt be eliminated if you do mover to moved to two men system up front. I think it is important you move to this notion of inward facing cameras. I think that can watch out for human error but i think that would be a step too far as well. I apologize. It was my sister. Any thoughts on either one of those being steps to far . Shes relentless. Ms. Feinberg we are moving ahead with inward facing cameras. To be clear this is something my predecessor was moving ahead with prior to his departure. This committee has asked the rs ac to take action on inward facing cameras. We told them last week we were talking it out of the rsac and moving ahead. Representative you agree with two men in the front or seat belts . Ms. Feinberg the way i have been briefed on it, the need to harden the seats in order to put seat belts in would be more dangerous to passengers than belting passengers in. If the ntsb feels differently, we will start our engagement and conversations can them. But thats my understanding of why seat belts may not be the best move on the train because it would make people more dangerous. On two person crews representative i go back to marketability as well. Often times when i travel in new york, the reality is people are up and moving and thats part of why you take the train as posed to getting on the airplane. You can get on the phone or have a Small Group Meeting and you take that out, i think youll lose market share that must further relative to plane travel. Ms. Feinberg on two person crews, thats something we have been taking a look at. Its less relevant in Passenger Service because its multiple people on the crew. Amtrak had five or six people on the crew in this particular train. Following the metronorth incident, one thing we required is for the engineer to be in Constant Contact with the conductor and make sure the conductor had access to an emergency brake. Representative i hear my chairmans ever so gentle tap tap, tap. I get the message, sir. Id like to thank the gentleman for being expedient and yielding back so much time. Representative thank you, mr. Chairman. Last but not least, hopefully. Thank you witnesses for your time and efforts as we try to reach answers to this great tragedy that occurred in northeast corridor. Its been interesting to listen to some of these lines of questioning. Its hard for me to imagine why its so complicated to get the answer to whether the engineer was utilizing a cell phone at the time of the crash. Seems like it should be a simple answer, simple endeavor, to find out if as mrs. Comstock in her line of questioning, during this period of time did he text . Did he use his phone . It should be there. Hard to figure out why its not true. There was a news report that said amtrak 188 had a fist sized area of Severe Damage on its wind shield consistent with that being struck by a rock or object. 20 minutes before the crash a Regional Commuter train in the same area had to stop service after the window was hit by an object. Finally also around the same time, amtrak 2173 was also struck by an object while traveling southbound in the very same area. Theres an old saying that once is an accident. Twice is a coincidence and three times is a pattern. Do you think that that applies here . We are confident that the train left the station without any wind shield damage. We are confident the damage occurred after leaving the station. We dont know whether it occurred before the accident or after the accident. We know it was not a weapon fired. The fbi helped us determine that. We know that rocks were thrown at wind shields all the time and it cracks the wind shield. Thats a way it could be damage but it would be postdamage. Representative theres no finding of any individual or individuals, culprits responsible for the damage done to the other two trains as well . Have we found out anything in that regard . No, we do not have any information in that regard. Representative would anybody else, any other panelists like to address that possibility of damage to the wind shield. Mr. Boardman i think we have time to time have people throw rocks at our trains but whats the specific question, sir, in terms of representative well, i have family that lives in manhattan. They ride this train. Ive ridden the train several times along the same corridor. Ive remarked to myself and to others that theres certainly a lot of availability, possibility of vandalism, some pitching something over onto train or firing a weapon or whatever. I just wonder if theres been any, besides the investigation that is ongoing now, is there any addressing of this possibility by ntsb or any of other agencies . Mr. Boardman the way we have been addressing a particular area that we have difficulty including this one, is with our Amtrak Police department and the partnerships we have with the Police Departments along the way. As we been there, were looking to see where the rocks might have been, might have come from and anywhere else that we have that kind of difficulty on the corridor we do have an investigation that goes into see if we can find the when and the where and who that might be tossing rocks. Its generally an immature person, some kind of kids or something that are doing that. Its not just the trains. Its the buses, cars, the other kinds of conveyances as well. Representative i yield back. Thank you very much. Gentleman yields back. Representative thank you. What time is it . 1 06. Representative i got 1 06. That has 1 05. Does seconds matter in a train going 100 miles an hour . Very crucial, yes. Representative my presumption correct me if im wrong, at this point as we speak you have some general knowledge of what occurred with that cell phone . Is that a fair assumption or have you not looked at it . Yes, we have looked at it. Representative you are dotting your is and crossing your ts before you make a statement . Yes. Were not going to be hurried into an answer. Representative is that the normal course . Yes. We look at cell phones all the time. Were seeing it so frequently. Representative i appreciate that. Again, like everyone else im frustrated the cell phone thing is not settled yet. I presume you have some General Information about whats happened but been reluctant about saying whats happened because youre dotting your is and crossing your ts now. I hope its soon. I assume it will be. Nonetheless, i am willing to wait. On seat belts, youre not as old as i am. When i was a kid, we didnt have seat belts in the car. We had them but im not sure if we had them. I take it back. I used to be thrown in the back of the Station Wagon and we would run in the back until my mother and father made the classic threat, sit down and shut up. Every kid my age heard that yet we put seat belts in cars. You restricted my freedom. Now i cant run around in the car. You have seat belts in airplanes. You restricted my freedom yet i can still get up, go to the toilet and talk to my friends in the back. I understand the structure of current trains may not make it much. I get that. I get it may take us 5, 10, 15 years to get to that point. But on the presumption that seatbelts help, and i presume they do help because the Automobile Industry and airplane industry has instituted them. I know some people dont wear them. Im not perfect at it. I didnt start wearing my seat belt until i started screaming at them to put it on or i would get arrested. I realized what a hypocrite i was. I started wearing my own seatbelt. Its better for me. I get that. Im not suggesting we need to put seat belts in the train now but to pretend that seat belts in trains will restrict peoples freedom and drive the ridership down is absurd. I would simply encourage you, if its a safety issue, if seat belts can save lives we should start planning on the implementation of them. If that cannot be done in the current configuration, i get that. At some point, youre going to order some new trains. When you do maybe you can implement seat belts. I ask you to include in the record materials from the fcc which shows what the fcc has done to move towards positive train control. So observed. I yield back. If mr. Sanford were here he would take note. Obviously, theres a lot of frustration in this committee. Certainly a lot of tension to the lack of answers. Its been three weeks now. Its been all over the media and rightly so. There has been loss of life. There are americans that are still looking for answers. I know youll continue to do your research, but you have now come before the entire Transportation Committee of congress to come here and not have cell phone information whether the cell phone was on or off, operable, to not understand what the records are after three weeks, to not have an idea whether there was mechanical failure when you have train brand new seamans train but in service less than a year ago and we cant do the autopsy on the train. Understand whether there was a mechanical failure. It sounds like while the engineer does not have recollection seconds before the crash, he is at least being cooperative. We should have some assumptions or some facts on whether there was an operator error that created a malfunction. Theres very few answers three weeks after one of the most horrific crashes our nation has ever seen. Because of that, we are going to ask you for a timely response to the questions that have come here today. We need to make a determination whether or not this body will have another hearing several weeks from now. With that, i would ask unanimous consent that the record is open and witnesses provide answers to our questions for the record within 15 days of todays hearing. Without objection, so ordered. Id like to thank each of our witnesses for being here today. Again, i would like to thank our witnesses for your expedient response to the crash site itself and the collaboration each of you showed in working together to resolve that. Mr. Hart . We havent found any anomalies with respect to the track, signals or the locomotive. Representative thank you. If no other members have anything to add the committee stands adjourned. [captions Copyright National cable satellite corp. 2015] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. Visit ncicap. Org] they are different. He said it is made off the bark of the tree. And that is made from the bark we take from the root up. [laughter] the only difference i have found between the democratic leadership and Republican Leadership was that one of them was skinny from the angle of and the other from the in out. He was one of the great populists. I was an example of appealing to the masses with a good yarn. But ultimately, like a lot of characters, he surged with his own power and was consumed by the. He was a maverick. The gate just as much grieved to his own Party Leadership as he did to the opposition. The senate has always needed mavericks. The keep the institution bubbling. If they were all mavericks, nothing would get done. We were fortunate that they have been a distinct minority. Senate historian don ritchie and ray smock on the history of the house and senate, its leaders and scandals host we want to welcome back senator patrick leahy, democrat of vermont. The longestserving senator in the senate right now. Sir, thank you. We also have an studio with us mike debonis and dustin volz. Thank you both for being here as well