>> when president grover cleveland and his bride to be came down what was then about large staircase to the family quarters at the west end of this corridor. they would have proceeded on the hallway, the music started up at the east side behind us here, where the united states marine band was assembled. the famous john philip sousa played the wedding march as the happy couple can down the hallway. they would have passed through these doors, these very same mahogany doors. come and the room, a different chandelier here, they would -- stood under the chandelier. said their vows. an enormous amount of flowers in the room brought from the white house conservatory. a large table where the sofa is now is a stream of potted plants and potted plants underneath. flowers were hung suspended from the moldings. the mantelpiece was covered with flowers. the fireplace was full of red begonias. it was a very brief ceremony, an evening ceremony. the assembled throng just went down to the eastern promenade, for the bride probably to show off her dress. they went down that same hallway we were just in, to a wedding dinner in the state dining room. ♪ >> those are the strains of in 1890's recording of john philip sousa in the marine corps band playing the wedding march they --formed at the wedding white house nuptials of francis and grover cleveland. and welcome. tonight, the story of francis. cleveland, the youngest first lady to ever serve in that role. meet our guest for the evening. the author of a bad buffet on her, -- biography on her. , describe what it was like for the nation in the 1880's and how this business of covering presidents was coming into its own. >> think about the 1880's, it is probably what i would call the age of newspapers. every city had multiple newspapers and every one of those was looking for a way to make money. the best way was to get the best story. whoever could find out where francis was saying, what she was wearing, what she was doing, what she looked like, that would help sell papers. it did not hurt that they made a little bit of it up. >> it was not quite a secret by the time june 2 came across. use of the word was beginning to leak out and investigations into who she might be and what the circumstances could be. they were really priming. >> absolutely. from the time cleveland came into office in 1885, there was all this speculation about who could possibly be his bride. it would waver between some of the women who would help his sister and her receptions at the white house, and then this competition in the mind of the public between whether or not it was francis or her mother, and all. -- her mother, emma. people were convinced it was not francis, she was way too young. write about this time, they used to call it decoration day, cleveland sent out the wedding invitations. at the decoration day parade in new york city, frances was introduced to the public. >> the president was not very fond of the press. aboute one of many boats the ways that he described them. refers one way you would to them -- those schools -- ghouls of the press. he said, i begin to fear -- honeymoon.ut their he had some naïve concept that they would be able to sneak away for a honeymoon on their own. >> data slut he wrote when they were going at the end of the summer. she thought that he had been able to outsmart press, because they had arranged for a special two-car train, on a side rail, and they figured they could get off to an area around maryland on some privately owned property. there was a telegraph agent who was bribed and revealed what the destination of the trade was. because it was pouring rain that night, when they got the train station, they had to take a carriage from the station to to their actual honeymoon location, the carriage got bogged down in the mud which gave the press even more time. they were staked out there by the time they got there. >> it gave rise to a new term -- keyhole journalism. >> and another term, which was ,ssociated with joseph pulitzer looking in the keyhole to see if you could see what was going on in their private lives. >> in your book, i read that they finally try to concede and gave an interview during a honeymoon. how does that work to keep the interest down a little bit? he had what he called the respectable papers, then the not respectable papers. i assume the respectable papers were those whose views coincided. he invited reporters from the so-called respectable papers to come into the cabin where he and francis were staying. telegrams fromd well-wishers on the table. they shared some of those. very nicely staged, very choreographed. they allowed the press to see some of these papers, allow them tosee him and her engaged each other. it was their way of saying, now can you leave us alone? >> not only the age of news papers, but the beginning of the age of consumer branding. as we said in our introduction, there was widespread use by the president and first lady's image image to sell all kinds of products. that is how you first learned of this young first lady. looking back at the history of renting and america. if you are to use the president 's image today, you would quickly get calls from lawyers about doing that. were there any rules whatsoever about the use of the first couples in the jacco >> no, and that is why these companies get away with it. several supporters of clinton and congress were trying -- of cleveland in congress were trying to get stuff past to not use their image without permission. he had enough detractors that even though they liked frances, they do not want to give them anything they wanted. they could not get these laws passed. >> here is a bit of francis cleveland" she had about her frustration. where is this from? >> that was a letter she wrote to the editor of country magazine. he had running -- had run an ad for this company. she had become friends and asked him to arrange for that to happen. >> we have to explain how this 49-year-old president and the 21-year-old ride ever became a couple. tell us the story of grover and frances cleveland. >> grover was law partners and friends with frances'partner -- father. cleveland supposedly gave him the first a.b. carriage and became a fixture in the house. as she grew up, she started to call him uncle cleve. her father was tragically killed when she was 11 in a carriage accident. money manager,od some people who knew more about the family history said he was a bit of a roague. cleveland stepped in as executor and money manager to help handle the affairs and work with emma to oversee france s'education. >> i read all of these short biographies, and it tells a story that he became interested after getting into the white house on a visit from the mother and daughter, but your tail goes back further. all the time that she was in college, he was sending loads of flowers to her and writing letters constantly. his eye on her for quite a while? >> i think he did. one thing that is interesting, people know little of her history. there -- her alma mater will special about the train them would come so he could come visit her. he did write her letters and send flowers. she also come -- accompanied him on campaign appearances when he ran for governor of new york. this is definitely well three- white house years. >> her family was receptive of this relationship. what was the public reception about the age difference? language thate call them beauty and the beast, because they did not like him and he was 47 -- 49, he was portly, not necessarily the handsomest man in the world. she was an absolute stunner. , veryair, blue eyes, tall good-looking. there were people that thought there was something strange about it, but they fell immediately in love with her. they kind of accepted him as part of the package. >> gary robinson on twitter -- asking how they met and asks this question -- did she love him? isn't a lot of time and -- reading you spent a lot of time reading your correspondence. >> i think she started out as most people do, thinking the marriage was semantic. but the age difference was significant. matured intoed -- a deep caring. i would say it was a respectful and caring kind of love. >> grover cleveland had some very specific views of women in society and what he wanted from a wife. >> yes. >> would you explain it? >> in that time, there was still this attitude of spheres of influence where women were supposed to stay pure and take care of the home and children. that is exactly where he wanted francis to be. he did not want her pretty little head upset with notions about it and first lady -- being first lady or the demands of being in the white house or the wife of a president. he did not think that women should vote or work outside the home. , this series if you have been watching along the way, it is interactive. there are a lot of ways to do that area can send us a question on facebook. there is already a chat going on for a little while about frances cleveland. you can also find our facebook page and be part of that. you can send us a tweet with the #firstladies. the good old fashion way, can make the phone call. here are the phone numbers. we will be working your questions in throughout our 90 minutes on frances cleveland. also something special for you, an opportunity to go inside the smithsonian's collection. you will meet lisa, the first lady's ear rate or at the smithsonian, to go behind the scenes a look at some of the frances cleveland items they have in storage here. not open to the public. we will be taking you for the first of center looks at the smithsonian collection right now. >> we are here at the political history storage room. the collection is too fast to be on display at one time. objects not currently on the floor are stored in here. at any point, they can be used for exhibition or lend to another institution. this is her wedding dress. s cleveland was an incredibly popular bride. she married the president in a white house ceremony, the only white house ceremony for a first lady. the bodice, filled in with a neck piece. and createsound it a softening effect. it was a longsleeved dress. long trainnderful on the underside, trimmed in lace. even the underside of his clothes you don't see had this beautiful trimmed. and this sweeping train. the collection contains more than clothing. at their wedding, we have public and personal pieces. one of my favorite things in the entire collection, this cake box. each of the guests at the wedding were given a satin covered box, painted with the bride and groom initials, to hold a piece of wedding cake. before the wedding, grover and frances signed a card for every cake box. inside, wrapped in lace. there would have been a piece of cake. this particular cake box was given to the minister who performed the wedding. sunderland. the minister at the first presbyterian church in washington d.c. that testing to the public fascination of frances cleveland. this is a piece of sheet music, the cleveland's wedding march, composed in honor of the wedding, it was not the wedding march played at the wedding. you can see, it is decorated with pictures of mr. and mrs. cleveland. these are the images of the cleveland's together that will be part of popular culture for the next 12 years. we are back to our sector. i want to introduce our second guest for the evening, returning from an earlier first ladies program. a historian for colonial firstmsburg, steeped in lady's history. welcome to the conversation. let us talk about the election. anybody who thinks there is hard knuckle politics today, look at the election of 1884 that brought grover cleveland into the white house. pretty rough stuff going on. what would you like? >> politics in the 1880's is brutal. we think about earlier elections where they are taking swings at each other like jefferson and adams. they be in the 1800 election. you are in the 1880's, he talks about newspapers, it is personal, it is visceral and because of the way political parties have developed, they are able to take these swipes at each other that really we would find surprising today. in 1884, all of these things would come out in the 1884 election. two candidates cannot be more different from each other. grover cleveland on the one verywho probably has little political experience of this sort. he was mayor of buffalo in 1881. elected governor of new york in 1882. two years later, he is the democratic nominee for president. that is all the major political experience that he has. he has developed a reputation of being honest and trustworthy and a reformer. on the other hand, you have got , the named john blaine continental lawyer from maine. too muchng, he has political experience. he has been speaker of the house, a senator from maine, one of the major figures in the republican party. he has a reputation for probably having private virtue, a good family man, but also tainted by public corruption and an inside the beltway guy. endsole campaign of 1884 up revolving around these things. personal politics. the greatest strength of grover cleveland, the greatest opportunity that the democrats , is the reputation of cleveland as being a man of public virtue man as any good political operative. they went straight after ,robably his most weak points the illegitimate child. >> the refrain for anybody who studied history, ma, ma, where's your pa? gone to the white house, ha ha ha. an illegitimate child in buffalo, new york. given the way buffalo was at that time, a lot of breweries and immigrants and massive growth, and illegitimate child was not all that unusual. maria named him oscar. cleveland. he stepped up to the plate and said he would take responsibility for her and the child. maria perley had problems with alcohol and was not taking care of him. an opportunity developed for him to place the child in the home of the family, mr. and mrs. james king. this young man started his life as oscar cleveland became james king junior. , untilall pretty quiet they uncover the dirt and found out that cleveland had assumed responsibility for this child, therefore the assumption that he .lso was father of the child there were some efforts to cover it up initially. then the famous line that cleveland says is, tell the truth. >> what to learn learn about cleveland from ms.? >> -- from this? >> he understands the virtue of making a story a nonstory. admit to it and move on. that is sort of how it works are. stories go back and forth about why he does it. either he is telling the truth and it is his child, all evidence, the scant evidence that we have is that there is a possibility it is his child. also the possibility it is the child of frances' father. the other part is to admit to it, make it a nonstory, say that it is true and move onto let us next. that is what happened in essence. >> how did frances' family react to this? thefected uncle cleve, man she was eventually betrothed to. at the same time it could have been her father's child? >> the reaction was interesting, considering as we have been talking about cleveland was very obviously courting frances at this point. she has been getting lots of flowers and going amounts of campaign trips. apparently there is a story where one of her classmates came into her dorm room and happened to see a picture of cleveland of the desk and wanted to know who it was. at thatreferred to him point as the mayor of buffalo. i don't know why it was the governor of new york. her comment was a man more sinned against than sinning. cesa wrote a letter to fran saint she hated cleveland going through all this trouble with this boy. there is never any discussion in those letters about who they thought the father was. >> we will take some calls and come back and talk about the cleveland administration and its significance in history. are on. maryland, you >> thank you, first of all i have been a viewer of c-span from almost the beginning. you do a wonderful job across the board. i live in allegheny county, maryland. one county east of garrett county, which is where the cleveland's honeymooned. several years ago i had to do some research on the presidents who visited this area, and i dug out my notes on the honeymoon s. grover cleveland and france i wrote down a few notes on want to share with you. after the white house ceremony, apparently late that night or the next morning, they boarded a andate railroad car arrived in deer park, maryland, which is in present-day garrett county. they honeymooned here for about at whatsix days stayed is now known at the cleveland's pottage. the press followed them up from watching 10 and railroad detectives had to sit on their honeymoon cottage so reporters would not bother them. they climbed trees, they tried to spy on the couple using binoculars, they would drive the servants to try and get a jury of what they were eating, where they were going. according to accounts, they went trout fishing several times in a stream known as deep creek. they caught almost 50 trout. they attended church together in downtown oakland, that has since been known as the church of the presidents. on their departure back to washington, a left from the deer park railroad station, it was then that the president met through orders and some of the locals. and someth reporters of the locals. he said their honeymoon exceeded their expectations. they never slept better. the air and temperature were delicious and they could not have found a more suitable retreat have a searched the entire united states. >> let's jump in. you have added some details to the story from the beginning and we thank you for that area anything more to add to his description of their enjoyment? research.done good what winds up with everything i have discovered, too. >> is the cottage still around? >> data don't know. indiana.p is joseph >> excellent series. always concerned about rovers wait. -- grover's weight. is there anything in research that she actually tried to get into lose weight after -- weight? >> she makes some comments -- they got a place outside of what is now part of the cleveland park section of washington d.c., oakfield. they were the first president to purchase a private residence to have someplace to go besides living in the white house. frances talks about trying to get him to walk around the farm or dress any way that that did not accentuate his weight. >> not his size as much as how he looked. expect holiday inn pennsylvania. paula inup is controlling you. >> i have a question about the wedding dress. i am assuming it is white in color? >> it looked the more dark cream color. without the original original color? >> i think cream was the correct color. it has available his age, but believe green was more appropriate. >> any other christian echo >> -- any other questions? >> because of the age difference, if that would take place today, would we call her a gold digger in today's society? >> who would be criticized, he or she? >> he could've been criticized as robbing the cradle vomited goes both ways. it is interesting to speculate what the media would do. and his pursuit in years beforehand. seemss age when nothing to be secret for a long time. know now about his involvement with her from her birth, she bought her first baby carriage. he knew her her entire life. there would be people who would think this was a little creepy. modern, people think about donald trump in these kind of made december relationships. december relationships. depending on what your moral basis is for these relationships, i think you will get into a similar conversation. >> to the serious politics of the age, you told us the grover cleveland successfully ended a 24th perigee of the republican run at holding the white house. time for the the gold and silver standard, paris and corruption. what was his approach to the presidency? ocs front executive? >> he was exceptionally strong. a greatay that he was constitutional thinker. he was no james madison. he did have a very clear idea about what the role of the presidency was and the role of the federal government was. he thought his role as president was to be the guardian of the federal government and do what he had done as governor of new york, to go ahead and make sure that congress was not doing anything that would screw the country up. they were not going to engage in unnecessary social policy, unnecessary economic policy, he was there to keep them honest and do what he had done in these other positions and reform the broader system of internet that -- ofught it undermined confidence that he thought it undermined. 304 times.the veto >> more than that are. if you include pocket vetoes. 414 in his first term, which is more than all presidential vetoes combined before him. -- heare bills like thinks this is just a way for guys in congress to the cable to curry some favor among their friends. he is detailing these things left and right. he has no problem in doing that. he has no real understanding, given his experience, of how the legislative process works. he is not really about compromising with congress. he is not interested in having discussions about these issues. ,e cares about health reform making sure that tariffs are being lowered, maintaining the gold standard, that is a sounder economic policy. outside of that, he wants congress to stay quiet. >> the sad part about that, we had reached a point in our economy where terrorist reform is important because we still had tariffs that were way too high and it was hurting us internationally. probably some of the lack of that reform is hard the reason -- part of the reason that the madession starting that his second term so dismal. partly because they could not yet terrorist reform in place. cleveland -- terrorist =-- tariff tara form tariff reform passed. >> you see the women hosting dinners to bring warring factions in under one roof. did they use the white house to try to bring together any of the forces looking for compromise? >> less in this white house than many of the previous white houses. and like we said, one of grover cleveland's -- perhaps his biggest issue was tariff reform and she actually attends a senate debate and sitting in the gallery over his major piece of legislation on tariff reform. so it's one of the only pieces of direct evidence that we have of her in any involvement of current political influence. other than that, they're using the white house for very different things. she's able to improve his standing in d.c. just by standing next tom. he has the reputation of coming in the white house, he likes poker and hanging out with his guy friend and he likes smoking and hunting, fishing, drinking bourbon. and she socializes, civilizes him almost immediately and gives him some political cache but then you talk about how the white house is being used in the ways we talked about in terms of other first ladies, she's doing things like getting involved in copyright legislation to focus on intellectual property, that this is a woman's sphere in order to protect the arts and authors and holds a reception at the white house for authors to bring attention to the need for intellectual property legislation. >> and just to pick up on what taylor is saying, part of the reason you don't see the parlor politics, cleveland wouldn't have it because he didn't see that as frances' responsibility or role and didn't want her engaged in anything that would have smacked of her showing a political view or opinion. she had them but he didn't want to use her in that way or take advantage of what she probably could very well have done for him, i think. if he had utilized her skill set as much as you talked in other shows how first ladies have exercised parlor politics. >> this enormous publicity and great public interest on this young first lady that people were very excited about having her in the white house, he had this great political chip or tool at his disposal and elected not to use it. >> everybody else knows it. everybody seems to know it except for him. editorials about this is his great card play is frances cleveland and he's not going to play it. instead, he's going to focus on vetoing as much legislation as possible, taking off as many people on the hill as possible, which continues to undermine his political capacity. >> you write about the fact he had very decided views of the roles of women. so was this framing his decision about not to use frances as a political chip? >> yeah, i mean, that's part of his view is that he didn't want her involved in anything politically. and even the things that she got involved with which were not necessarily political when she starts getting active in the new york kindergarten association, you see in her letters to her friends that he is angry with her because of how much time she's spending with these organizations and not involved with things that he thinks she should be involved with, mainly at home taking care of him. >> as you can see from all these wonderful photographs you're seeing on the screen we've now moved fully into the able of photography and we're able to show you so many more images and also with the rise of media, many more illustrations that were done by the media. this is also the first time in the series that we have some video of one of the first ladies. this is from later in her life but we thought it would be interesting just to show you as we talk about the media, what the first lady looked like later on in life and we're going to watch that as we listen to a phone call from matthew in caldwell, new jersey. hi, matthew, you're on. >> hey, how are you? i'm calling from the birthplace of grover cleveland. we had the memorial day parade today and i'm proud to say i got to play grover cleveland in the parade. >> how about that? >> a lot of fun. >> how did you get the role of grover cleveland? >> a member of the association and they talked me into it or they talked -- i talked them into it. >> how is your shape compared to the president? >> i'm 230, i guess he was a little heavier. i'm 6'2", i think he was a little shorter. >> that's right. p it was said he was five feet tall and four feet wide. >> matthew, as someone who was interested and played the president, what's the question you had for our guest tonight? >> good question. and that is the question about veto. i guess i was saying he was lucky because garfield before him and mckinley after him were assassinated so tough time to be a president of the united states in the 18th and 19th century. i just find him interesting. i'm proud of the democrat that about 11 presidents in a row was the only democrat. so i focus on that a little bit but in a 50-year period there was one democrat and we got him. >> thank so you much for calling from the president's birthplace. we talked about frances while she was not being used politically, she certainly was, we talk about influence and image. on the image side of the equation, one carefully watched in the united states, we're going to return to the smithsonian and look at some of the dresses she chose and look at how she might have affected style in the country. >> the public's fascination with frances cleveland really extended to her clothes and she was a real fashion icon, women emulated her hairstyle and her clothing. this is a dress from the second administration, and in a way, this is the most prized piece of all because this is the inaugural gown. this was her inaugural gown from 1893 and it stayed in her family and became the family wedding dress. the bottom of the dress is exactly the same, but the top has been remade. it originally had a saten top with large sleeves and bows on the shoulders and the lace from the original dress was used to re-create a new bodice to make it a more fashionable, modern wedding dress and used by her granddaughters. >> a wedding dress and inaugural dress. let's look at her other clothes. even her everyday clothes were ery stylish. a lot of them look like something you could wear now. this is a jacket, a wonderful bolero jacket, black with this wonderful purple-blue velvet. definitely day wear. this is a more evening appropriate piece. and this is a bodice, would have had a matching skirt. you see the beautiful lace and sequins, netting, beading. slightly more ornate p day time vest. this would have a matching collar. gain, you can wear this with a skirt. those who know the history of the first lady's collection, it's 100 years old now. and one of the earlier dresses, the wedding dress is on display for many years, we change the dresses around. and this dress was on display before even that. this is a reception dress mrs. cleveland would have one during the second administration. the 18 0's is when sleeves become much larger and the puffs become a big facet of the clothes. this is a beautiful skirt and bodice and would have been a matching evening gown, huge, large puff sleeves trimmed in lace and butterflies. and a description at the time talks about the butterflies looking as if they would take flight from her shoulders. but you can see the damage that light will do and why we rotate dresses, velvet was originally this color and over the years f display, it's faded. >> i'm curious about how this 21-year-old whose family finances were rather insecure after her father died when she was a youngster developed a sense of taste and style? >> well, i think it's sometimes just innate and she seemed to have had it. there is some suggestion that her grandfather who had lost all three of his adult children and therefore was able to -- or interested in taking care of his grandchildren provided ney to pay for her truceo -- true sew and cleveland was not -- truseax and cleveland was not a poor man either. so once she married him, there was money for her to be able to purchase very nice clothing. >> did she set trends? >> she set some trend, the one she's the most famous for though it may not be a true story but certainly has gotten a lot of press and that is getting rid of the bustle and the bustle was a wire contraption on the back of your dress and it was -- it had kind of gone out of passion in the 1870's and a p french ziber by the name of charles worth decided to bring it back because he could sell more fabric because you needed more fabric to drape over the metal from the waist and over the hips. so some reporters were looking for a story and they said, anything about mrs. cleveland, let's say she quit wearing the . so some reporters were looking for a story and they said, anything about mrs. cleveland, let's say she quit wearing the bustle. ll the women believed it and quit wearing. and they said we heard you quit wearing them and since we heard that and everyone quit asking for them we've moved to the basement but if you want one, we'll get one for you and frances was with her shopping companion and looked at her and said, well, if they say i've stopped wearing the bustle, then i have to stop wearing the bustle and had her clothes remade the next day. >> she must dress to suit the newspapers, to go ahead and accept that. i think it's a remarkable reflection of exactly how important all that coverage is. and she also made the saying about they can use the extra ones as catcher's masks. the one thing i love about frances. she's a baseball fan. >> we should make the point that women's dress reform was very political because the clothing that women were wearing was very constrictive d there was a movement along with the suffrage movement to release the women from the constrictive clothing and it was a battle of the conservative view versus the liberal view. did frances get involved in it at all? >> they didn't get involved directly but is interesting because if you look at the photographs of her at their summer place called buzzard's bay, she is dressed what wed call very casually. she's still wearing a dress but there are pictures of her and her mother in bathing costumes. she's wearing what we would call simple shift. just a way from the corsets, the stays, the big, puffy sleeves and the ornamentation and when she was in the public she would dress the way the public expected her to look. >> back to phone calls and go to judith in marion, massachusetts. you're on. your question? >> hello. i'm just calling to say my husband and i own the house that the clevelands rented for two summers in marion. and they came to marion because richard watson gilder had given a talk at wells college and had met mrs. cleveland and she thought that her husband was under a lot of stress and when he found out that there was good fishing off of marion, they came during the summer for four summers in between his two terms and they also have the the white orn in house, esther. and their oldest daughter, ruth, the baby ruth was supposed to have been named after her. and their next daughter, marion, born in 1895 was named after marion because they loved living here so much. and they also had le exception -- receptions here and were very accessible to the people of marion so the people from marion here are very, very fond of the memories of the clevelands. >> what is the house like today, judith? is it still in the style of the period or has it been renovated? >> it's been added on to. they lived in it when it was more like a farmhouse, and i actually have quite a few photographs of them sitting on the porch. then later on in 1891 or 19 -- 1892 it was made into a much larger house of the shingle style that was very popular for houses on the water. and so it changed. and actually, grover cleveland wanted to buy this house but the owner then named a very high price so he decided he was a very frugal man, he decided not to buy it and went down to born and bought a house there, grey gables. >> you may be getting phone calls from our guest there is so see some of the photos you have. thanks for the call and sharing your own personal connection to the cleveland history. we're going to quickly run out of time on this important first term of the clevelands. how involved was she at all in any of the aspects, any of these big issues of his presidency? >> well, the biggest issue probably at the time was the copyright that she was involved in. would you agree with that? >> you're right, in terms of her political involvement. she's going far beyond just the kind of parlor politics of having people over and that kind of retail politics. she's doing things like going to rallies to support this legislation. they would hold them at the first presbyterian church in town and she would go there unaccompanied by the president and to make sure that she was being directly associated with this legislation. >> there's also a connection between what was going on in marion, massachusetts, and the support of the copyright because that was where richard watson gilder, the owner of century magazine and his wife, who was an artist and started the arts students league had salons and that is how frances met the actor joseph jefferson and mark twain and several other well known writers of that time period and that's how she got involved and then became very supportive of the copyright and i guess we should tell your viewers the issue with the copyright is kind of reverse of the tariff issue because the issue with the copyright is american writers were not able to get royalties if their works were sold abroad and what the earth was to get these international protections for american authors so they'd be able to get royalties when their work was sold internationally. >> when you talk about the major -- those major political issues of the day outside of the kind of things that frances was directly involved in, like we said about tariff reform, the huge debate over the gold standard versus replacing it with something that is based -- with the standard based upon silver or with legislation regarding native american land and assimilation, that any kind of legislation that's dealing with the massive increase of immigration into america, how america is really being transformed, we -- she's really not involved in any of that to any extent because there's one particular story, and it was during the first term in 1887, the new york fire department asks her to go ahead and come up to be a part of a public event. and p she writes back saying that she is not going to attend because it's her view of the role of the first lady is to not engage in these kind of public ceremonies without the presence of her husband but the head of the new york fire department gets a little ticked off about this and writes to the president and so president cleveland responds directly to him saying, well, you know, i agree with her decision. however, it's up to her. and if this is her concept of what the role of a first lady is, i wholly support her. >> i'm not exactly sure that was her decision. i'm thinking he told her that was her position. >> did they travel during the first term? >> yes, they had a very successful calleded the western and southern tour. >> so important. >> yes, because this was -- correct me if i'm wrong, this was the first time since the end of the civil war where the president emwarked on this extensive tour to cover the south as will as the west gaining population. and the crowds were -- richard watson gilder writes letters to frances, get some bodyguards or protection, you'll be crushed to death. and she writes letters back and the letter she writes, we're finally on the way home, it's been a wonderful and terrific tour. i'm so nobody got killed or a child trumped because the crowds were enormous. >> the people of st. louis make coins with her image on them and hand out. >> as momentos of their having been there. >> we're up to the 1888 election which pits grover cleveland who stands for re-election against benjamin harrison of indiana. and what were the big issues? >> well, i think that the is st issue at this point the economy is really starting to teter. the major part of the issue is really about partisan politics and really about making sure that -- so they can to the monetary standard silver, that the republicans were able to get back into the white house. you've got to get back. you've got to get back to new york. so benjamin harrison end up being this compromise candidate. he was a little bit of a cold fish and the political cartoonists had their way with him and would always depict him in this huge overcoat and old-fashioned hat to suggest he was wearing his grandfather's clothes and obviously his grandfather was william henry arrison, the former president. and that he's riding that connection into the white house. but the important thing about the election in terms of the -- in terms of our understanding of it are really two things. the first thing is that it really is the first of a big money elections. this makes campaign finance history. the republicans put $3 million into this race. and they forget about the popular vote. they really want to focus on the electoral vote. they want to focus on strategically put this money to win new york and indiana. $3 million is an enormous amount of money, more than has gone into any election up to that point. and then there's -- another issue is really about what are you going to do about pgrover cleveland's greatest card, a republican once said at the time that it will be -- it's one thing to go ahead and go after grover cleveland. it's another thing to go after him and try to defeat them both. so what they do, again, we're back into this bare knuckle the of politics in which republicans bring up the story that -- grover cleveland is in fact abusing frances. >> so of course, rumors of spousal abuse during this campaign. is it true or untrue? >> i'm sure it's untrue. frances loves to go to the theater and grover loved to veto legislation. so he didn't always go with her. of course the woman didn't go unescorted so a lot of times she went with a member of congress or somebody who was on the white house staff who would take her. and so the story is that a supporter from congress, senator waterston took her to a play and came back and had a nice chat with the president and said good evening and that's allegedly when he beat her and beat her mother. and nobody said anything initially. there was a minister from massachusetts, reverend pendleton who started saying these vial things from the pulpit and much like the situation with the illegitimate child, kind of what we'd now call, getting it out in front of the story, frances write as letter that's sent to all the papers. and as we're talking about she's not supposed to be political and she's supposed to kind of stay in her sphere, but this letter goes out over her signature that says that i wish that all the women of this country were as fortunate as i to have such a kind and caring husband. but here's the interesting thing about this letter, even though it's her signature, if you look at the actual letter in the grover cleveland papers, it's not her handwriting and was written by daniel not -- daniel motte who was the general chief of staff and crafted within the administration and their political way to deal with it. >> these contradictions when we're talking about grover cleveland and the deployment of frances in political ways. the ways the democrats use her during the election, obviously you've got to tamper down this particular issue, but this election is in fact the one election in which the image of the first lady is deployed in direct political ways more than any other election in american history. jesse fermont had her image one one particular campaign in 1956, lucy hayes hadder picture on a poster but in the 1888 election they're rolling out frances cleveland. >> donald blaze writes, i read that when she left the white house in 1889, she told the white house butler she'd be back exactly four years from today. how is she so confident president cleveland would be re-elected after losing the 1888 election. here's her quote, i want you to take good care of the furniture and ornaments in the house because i want to find everything just as it is now when we come back four years from today. sounds supremely confident. >> sounds supremely confident and to be honest with you, i think that the minute they hit new york which is where they lived the next four years, she started campaigning for him. >> and part of it is that he didn't lose the 1888 election. he won the popular vote. he actually outpaced harrison by tens of thousands of votes but swamped in the electoral system. he's the only president other than f.d.r. to win more than two elections. >> what happened was the republicans were ahead of the democrats in doing this electoral strategy. >> absolutely. >> and it worked. >> absolutely. that's exactly what happened. >> we have another smithsonian video and this will talk about the political partner and the roles that it played in the election that year. >> frances cleveland is so popular, people are imitating her clothes and her hairstyle. but they really just want a piece of frances for themselves. p they always felt we owned the first lady, she was someone we know. so pictures of the first lady became extremely popular. you can purchase your own pictures of mrs. cleveland to have in your home. and based on these pictures, advertisers and manufacturers make an array of souvenirs that you can purchase and have mrs. cleveland in your house, in your home. so you can purchase a small painted glass portrait. you can have plates of mrs. cleveland. mrs. cleveland can convince you to buy a product, including this thread, binding the country and the first couple together. and she's used in campaigns. so while we have grover cleveland running for president, we also have mrs. cleveland running for first lady. this is a set of campaign playing cards where you're actually electing the president, the vice president, nd the first lady. so frances cleveland in the second administration looks a little different now. she's a young mother, a confident matron. and this is just a pretty piece you can have in your home. a print of frances cleveland. the same image is used in this ribbon. so the clevelands visited the world fair and you can have a souvenir from the world fair which not only commemorates the world fair but the clevelands visit to the fair. >> they're moving to new york. why do they choose new york city as their next stop in life? >> i think that was probably just a good place for frances with her interest in the arts and cleveland got a job there. >> what did he do? he worked for a law firm, francis lynn stetson who was the attorney for jp morgan and several extremely well known and financially well off and influential people but he was considered at counsel and wasn't actually practicing law as a practicing attorney as much as overseeing activities within the law firm. >> but the suggestion was it was an immediate bid to reclaim the white house? >> right. they sort of launched right back into it. i think that people -- the fact of him winning the popular vote continues the democrats in thinking that they're going to be able to recapture new york. there's some adjustments they can do to get back into the white house. it was very much questioned that cleveland is going to be the candidate in the 1992 election and so what are the steps they really need to take to shore up their electoral vote so that they can get right back there. >> she also gives birth to the couple's first child named ruth and there are a number of questions. here's one from holly wondering about the baby ruth candy bar being named after the cleveland's first daughter. what's the story there? >> the story there is that curtis candy company developed this candy bar. i should say that ruth cleveland tragically died of distier yeah in january of 1904 and -- dysteria in january of 1904 and would have been 12 years old and the candy bar came out in 1909 but there had been a lot of songs we may get to in a little bit, songs, images, just as they used mr. and mrs. cleveland in the 1888 election they used mr. and mrs. cleveland in the baby ruth in the 1892 election and the phrase had been out there and the curtis candy company took the name and named the candy bar for her. >> you reference her interest in the kindergarten movement. the kindergarten movement was a big social movement in the country at the time which was designed to do what? >> it was designed to help americanize immigrant children and their mothers. it was the idea of being able to put children into a school setting in which you could begin to teach them their numbers, their letters, to speak english, american customs, american patriotism and then it was also a tool with which as the children were learning, the mothers would learn along with it. and back in the spirit of influence, the mothers would take that knowledge back and bring it to the husband and to all the children in the family. >> because we should say about immigration in the country at this time, it was >> it is extraordinary. the greatest. of mass immigration in america. in terms of percentage of the population. 500,000 people coming in every year. they are german. they are irish. there are catholics. they are eastern europeans. the demographic change that the american population is going through in this major movement from a mainly a growing population to one that is based in the cities and is focused more on manufacturing. havingappening -- it is a major impact on american culture. there's the question question about how do you assimilate these immigrants. temperancedeal with as a political issue? au have people who enjoy pint or two at the end of the day. these kind of issues that are coming up are the kind of her sphere.are in especially when you're talking about what is going on in bigger cities like new york. what do you do for the people will have the least resources among them. kindergarten was a way to get at that. >> she did. she had a kindergarten for ruth. was back as the chief of staff. about thead children same age. there was a kindergarten in the white house. francis was active in higher education. she founded a college. she was very active with their alma mater. 1892 election was a rematch between benjamin harrison and grover cleveland. and mrs. harrison died just before the election all stop how did that affect the election? to that affects benjamin harrison? he was never terribly interested in campaigning. it does put a little bit of an impact. it impacted him negatively. he had no gusto. harrison suffered major defeats during his presidency. the economy was going into a tank. there was not anything that he could do about it. the republican party was splintering. secretary of state resigned right before the end of the presidency. he wanted to see if he could get one last bite at the nomination apple. the democrats are finding a better recipe to call lasts. it was the election, backdrop. 1892, francis's production comes true. there was both economic uncertainty -- there was economic uncertainty in the country. president cleveland returned to office. one of the most interesting presidential stories. tois the only president serve two nonconsecutive terms. he gets to numbers in the lineup. they discovered a spot in his mouth. he was a cigar smoker. it leads to an interesting story in which francis cleveland was involved. >> he called his doctor because the spot bothered him. they decided that he was probably -- that it was probably cancerous. esther was born in the white house. they went to a rental house that they had been renovating in the cleveland park section. there was anen, announcement in the paper that they changed their plans. mrs. cleveland wanted to take her baby to winter's day in massachusetts. she wanted to enjoy the wind and breeze. on a yacht with her friends. and groveromes back cleveland gets on it. in the meantime, to dispel some , they said that he was on a diet program. was on the 1890s version of weight watchers. he is gone for a month on the yacht. the press starts to say, what is going on, mr. president? says, he's just having a good time fishing. he needs the rest. . he needs this time away. finally, he arrives. for a final back operation. reporter finally breaks the story. the administration, unfortunately, decided to discredit him. she wrote to joseph jefferson you think aen child would have more sense than that? >> this is an incredible tale. coastesident is off the of the united states being operated on for cancer surgery. yes his entire upper jaw removed. he is with a prosthesis. and, he is hidden from the press. and francismont said that he was just off on a fishing trip. they tried to cover every step that they could. there are fears that the economy would take further. >> this is the issue. there are bigger things at stake, in terms terms of the american economy. the markets are very jittery. , who was theident grandfather of adlai stevenson, was not someone who is seen as being reliable. his supporters believed that any hints that the president was in danger at all, in terms of his health, would send the markets further into the tank. all of the investors would pull out and accelerates a tank that was already in full swing. they had to maintain the liquidity in the markets. the only way to do that was to keep this completely secret. not talking about a little secret. they have to do a surgery to make sure that that there are no external scars. he sounded like he was purposely ok. >> it must've been a skill to learn how to speak with that. has to do with what mrs. cleveland did after she left office. the next democratic first lady, mrs. wilson, got involved in international affairs and attended democratic conventions. .o did eleanor roosevelt jacqueline kennedy worked to save places like grand central station. did francis get involved in any way? did she attends democratic conventions? did she use her influence politically? >> we will get to that story and a few minutes. thanks for asking that. that is an important question. .atricia, your question >> hello susan. i never miss your friday night program. -- there is a waster -- my grandfather appointed as he on a dirt secretary of state. francis's closest friend in aurora. they often visited the white house. the godmother to my father. i still have the long dress. my question is this, kamala -- on -- aunt. how did francis feel about the temperance movement? i lost track of catherine willard. catherinetroduced willard to mr. baldwin. she honored that up until the latter part of her life. -- unlike thees, , she served alcohol. it is not a policy issue of hers. movement was not just about temperance. -- were the biggest critics of her in the first term. her dressest was or her loan that winds, -- her .or low necklines >> i found myself very busy with my social duties beginning again and my two babies. i give so much time to the children because i won't be cheated by the babyhood by anything. francis cleveland held weekly summits for working women. did she continue that during her second term question mark >> she did not. she scaled back the social calendar. she said it was necessary from a diplomatic standpoint. of theied to get out white house to a house that they had in another part of washington. >> there was concern about the cleveland children at that time. will concern. how do the cleveland's approach this? >> people decided that they did not like her. she started closing the white house gates so that the public could not see the children armor when they were out on the grounds. >> we have another video on the cleveland children. of the children has always been popular with the public. when she became first lady, she was a young bride. she developed her style. was grover cleveland reelected, both baby ruth and the harrison grandchild were part of the campaign. this is a piece of sheet music. the music talks about the two babies vying for who will be the next baby in the white house. , theg the second term cleveland's had their second child. her name was esther. esther cleveland. she has eyes that open and close. so fascinated with them. every time they went outside, mrs. clinton was afraid that people would try to pick up the children. they felt that the first children needed to be protected. they were part of the american family. mrs. cleveland had a second home. they only stayed in the white house during the social season. they had a private residence the rest of the time. >> her approach to protecting the children made her less popular with the american public. the economy continue to be challenged. by the time they finished their second tour of duty in the white house, what was the american public's view of the cleveland's? was in the midst of the worst depression in american history. it lasted five or six years. unemployment was above 10%. he was seen as being able to do nothing about it. in fact, he was not able to do very much about it. as being muchen more withdrawn. these questions about the first family great game for the very first time. snipped a reporter was a lock off of bruce hare. there were concerns about the security. the white house security staff goes from four to 27. she is seen as being much more aloof to the american people. she is not the same personality that we came to expect during the first term. you combine these two things together, they cannot wait to get out of the white house by the end of their first term. >> maplewood, new jersey. hello, sarah. >> cleveland is buried in princeton, new jersey. along with ruth and francis -- frances. . had no idea i figured that out. about to learn the story of of their post-white house years. he was a new jersey native. after he ran for the white house for the second and final time, how did they decide where to live next? , sheat is interesting is said that they could not go out and look for a house on their own. they had agents. forlly, they both came down breakfast and one said to the other one, i had an idea where we should live. the other one said, i did, too. they decided on princeton, new jersey. the best from the time that they got married. they were a family unit. they got involved in princeton university. she got involved in the growing number of women who graduated college. princeton students who did not have family close by or money. they provided a home and support for them. with the lifeed insurance association. .e wrote articles >> and had more children question mark >> they had more children. their first was richard. 1903, she gave birth to their last child. >> how long after that did the president died question mark >> he died in 1908. he probably had cancer. , drawn out,w painful death. he died in the house in princeton. a number of comparisons drawn between francis cleveland and jacqueline onassis kennedy, the public fascination with her and that she remarried when she became a widow. what is the story about her remarriage? how long after his death did she remarry? >> it was 1913. it was to a professor at princeton. had moved to wales from princeton. he is a professor of archaeology. there will a couple years apart from each other. his name was thomas hobson. point of saying that she and the president had very little in common. he found boring when she found interesting. it is different with the second husband. they had a lot of insurance -- they had allotted share interest. interest in traveling. they had a lot of the same interest. interest in traveling. they had much better relationship. public was mrs. cleveland's life after grover cleveland's death? she had to manage the press. it waned over time. she was active during world war i. she was active with an organization which made him made garments that they gave to nonprofits for giving out in emergency situations. you could still read these items about her. the session was nowhere near. >> she continued to be against women's suffrage. ofshe was the vice president the league of anti-suffrage from 1913 on tell women got the right to vote. public'sas the reaction to a first lady who is campaigning so vigorously against women's suffrage? >> it is interesting that there is this lets. there was a debate on whether or not it is necessary for women to have the right to vote. whether or not it is important part of women's role in life. her ownveland exercised right to vote. at, she was still part of way of thinking about women and their place in american society and developed in the 1870s 1880s. that first wave feminism. if you want to be the best woman that you can possibly be, that exercising authority within your own special realm. what grover cleveland thought about what women should be able to do. ,women's voting and also her language during world war i and when she was doing in terms of trying to be active in supporting american patriotism. the qaeda speeches that she did during world war i are incredible pieces of rhetoric. she becomes a very different hern after her marriage to second husband. first wife was an alcoholic. so, they were divorced. mrs. cleveland thought it was important for her to have -- for them to have a mother. helped to raise and cleveland robertson. anne cleveland robertson. she was my grandmother. happened on aent sunday night in new hampshire where we spent the summer. on sunday nights, we used to get and the the family cleveland family to sing hymns. we all really enjoyed that. each person had their own favorite hymn. i got together with a group and went bowling with my cousin and square dancing friends. we had a very good time. i do not think there is anything terribly malicious about it. closest friends called my grandmother and said, where was ann during the him session. my grandmother called me to her desk. ,he said, with a quiet smile she would like to have me back for the rest of the summer. ,he did it because my godmother waswas a very dear lady, very influential and very strict. my grandmother was trying to be strict with me. i appreciated that. i obviously went back and hymms.-- sang >> your grandmother didn't drink because of the temperance plies -- the temperance pledge. >> my grandmother was older. . stop by i love to see her. i stop by. -- i stopped by. had a poor set had a lovely view of the mountains. she was having her breakfast and she was taking her medicine with her breakfast. she announced, with a laugh, her medicinetaking that was supposed to be good for her heart. grandmother had always been a key told her. she allowed alcohol to be served in the white house. she herself had never had whiskey. i can assure you that she did not like it as medicine. we thought that was pretty funny. .hat was the way she was she had a wonderful sons of humor. she can laugh at herself. she did not appreciate whiskey. >> that whole interview runs about six minutes long. and cleveland robertson -- ann robertson. a we are creating a repository up on our website of first ladies. have just a short time. i want to get larry and from frankfort, kentucky. >> good evening. a question for dr. dunlap. local history suggest that was a very close friend of francis because they were both younger women married to older men. i wonder if dr. dunlap knows about this relationship and, what herrally, relationship was with otherwise in washington? >> i do not know anything about the relationship with ms. lindsay. she did an excellent job of having friendships with some of the older washington wives. that was held by the fact that older wives took her under her wing. she was a young bride. her.respected she had a great relationship with them. future presidents are other first ladies ever invite france's cleveland act the white house? invited in 1913. >> there is only one criticism of the remarriage. the most part, people embraced it. she was back in washington a number of times. she met sherman and eisenhower. she maintains her level of celebrity. .> this is the dunlap biography frank was originally a given name. it was a nickname that she went by. >> what the grover cleveland color? >> frank. your closing paragraphs, you make the case that she has been lost to history but shouldn't be. why? >> she was strong on education and the arts. >> attaches the role of first lady? >> she changed it in terms of putting education in the forefront. care of children. she was very concerned about them. inwhere would you put her the pantheon of first ladies? >> she's the first national celebrity first lady. i think we're talking about the development of of our understanding of the institution of first lady. she is the first one in which we didn't think about what the uses are all the celebrity, and good ways and bad ways. the first family was owned by the american public. we talked about how that could be a positive tool for the presidency. if only grover cleveland could have seen that. >> thanks to both of you. thanks to our viewers for your participation.