did overturn several decades of previous rulings by the court when they ruled -- and of course, the minority felt just as strongly. they felt corporations should be treated like individuals on this issue. so there is a lot of controversy over this topic. it is -- it is one we will see before the supreme court again, during some point. there will be legislation not moving in this congress but future congresses. in my -- on capitol hill. congress has consistently tried to tweak this language. but now basically the rules are off. they can now use what we call soft money. not necessarily for their campaign but raise million-dollar contributions for other issues. for instance, a redistricting initiative back in their home state. they cannot benefit themselves with it. can't use it on their campaign, but it has an impact on the politics of their state. so right now we're kind of in a netherworld, and nobody's really sure what's going to happen next. this was one step the house %- democratic leadership wants to address to -- wants to take to address campaign finance rules. at some point there's going to have to be -- one of my colleagues wrote a story about a month ago. from politico. for a long time republicans, say senator minority leader mitch mcconnell had opposed finance campaign saying the real thing is disclosure. it's not how much they give but who gives it. let them give anything they want but disclose it immediately. with the internet, we can have it out that day, we can find out who did what. but the funny thing is now some of these folks who wanted immediate disclosure are not so big on disclosure saying this is a united ruling. didn't have anything to do with that. so now they are kind of hemming and hawing. so there are very strongly-held views and principaled views on the first amendment and it's an issue that draws a lot of emotion. and when you take time digging into the fascinating issue, it's one of the long in this country. we wrestled with money and politics. the powerful or well-resourced to influence our political process is not one that's going to go away. as long as we have elections, we're going to have this issue. hoot: have you ever seen a carveout such as the one that was created for the n.r.a.? >> sure. guest: sure. tax bills. they won't name it but there are -- there will be only certain organizations that can qualify for a language. ear marks. they may not necessarily name a company or the -- that gets an ear mark but the language will be structured in such a way. what was interesting on this is that you have very progressive liberal leadership, speaker plosey, these are progressive liberals, not right wingers. this is the second time in months they've had to acknowledge the real power of the n.r.a. to swing votes. it was on the d.c. voting bill. and they ended up pulling that bill because there was language in there the n.r.a. opposed. i had one say to me 260. that means the n.r.a. can mobilize 260 votes in the house so if the n.r.a. wants to come in on an issue, that's an issue that is something that the leadership is going to watch. also if you remember back to the membership in 1994 and they swept away 40 years of democratic rule, one of the groups behind the rep can takeover was the n.r.a. they were upset with the assault gun ban. they mobilized their voters, one of the democrats learned after the elections, don't mess with the n.r.a. they can bring a lot of pressure to bear on any issue that they choose to focus on. >> carol in reston. on our rep can line thank you for holding. you're on with john bresnahan. caller: yes, i think this is the most corrupt government we've had since i don't remember when. being a member of the n.r.a. we eat the deer meat we shoot and i'm also a member of the tea party. i went to the first tea party rally in little rock, arkansas. and it wasn't just white people. and there wasn't a lot of people there. but the second time i went, it grew and drew and it's continuing to grow in my small town, because people are tired of this spending. the ear marks, the pork. and it's out of control. and -- host: two points to address with what carol had to say. corruption and government are the perception of government and also would this affect the tea party movement at all? guest: corruption is part of government. there's always going to be corrupt government officials. i think something like this, what happened in this -- on kind of jockeying around -- i think will feed some people's distrust of got to the. here you have a special interest group getting an exemption carved out. a special interest group. that is kind of what people are looking at here. in this case it was the n.r.a. but in health care it was different groups and tax bills, other things. that is a legitimate issue. but then you go back to the folks pushing, what they are saying, saying this is what they are trying to address. if we don't do something about would youing special interest groups to run elections without any disclosure of who they are, how are they ever going to get to the issue of addressing some of the topics that or some of the crises that face america, across the board in terms of the economy, environment, and what not. so it's a have difficult issue to balance. host: does this affect the tea parties at all if the finance bill is passed? guest: well, the tea party as a group, primarily engage in express advocacy, if they were -- they wouldn't be affected by this. this is outside groups. this is not groups primarily involved in politics. host: jane from new jersey, democrat. hi. caller: yes. hi. good morning. guest: good morning. caller: i, you know, with all the believeuating from the right about activist judges, the finding by the supreme court on citizens united, all that was -- i mean, the issue at hand was can they make this prop demand is movie or can they? and the answer was simple. yes, they could. but this court. the roberts court, used this opportunity have this finding that's further pushing us towards an olgarky. the right has been doing whatever they could to weak at any working class and put the power in the hands of the corporations. and now our entire congress will, with this finding, the congress have become the employees or the puppets of the corporations. and the tea partiers in all their screaming about the government. government is here to protect us. and it worked just fine after the new deal. but little-by-little, the corporations have taken away our right to speak, and i'm sorry. corporations are not people. they are given privileges that we don't have. they have limited liability when they are found criminally culpable when found guilty of murder by -- they get a slap on the hand that wouldn't be worth a pimple on an elephant's butt. we would be put in the prison. guest: i think the caller read the book where he makes somewhat of a similar line. corporations are not individuals. they are treated under the law by the terms of those the right to cast a vote and in terms of their involvement in the political debate, they hadn't been seen in the same light as an individual, but again, this is, you know, this is an issue. this is an issue the supreme court has wrestled with. this is an issue that legislatures, democratic and rep can, different congresses and the president, this is not going to go away. we are going to have this debate as long as we have elections. who is paying for what and who is running for offices? and are they being helped by powerful, rich interests? i mean, until early in the to the century we didn't have any disclosure requirements at al or whose campaign -- at all, or whose campaign was funded by who. the system is a lot better than it was. it is not perfect. people are going to continue to work on it. politicians, advocates on both sides of the debate will keep covering it. it is a debate that will continue. host: about five minutes left with our guest. milton is a guest in bowling green. caller: hello. appreciate you taking my call. first time on the air. host: welcome. caller: i just feel deeply about campaign finance laws. i feel like it's the key to all our problems in government today. you know? can't have a government for the people, by the people with the current laws we have. when you look at the current laws that they just put in place with health care, i mean, who does it benefit? it benefits whoever paid those people and who gave them the noun be elected. i mean, -- them the money to be elected. i mean, we need to take our government back. and this is the way to do it. it's the only way to do it. guest: and milton, i think you made an excellent point. i have been covering congress. this is my 16th year covering congress. i cannot tell you how important this issue is. it is one that in my time up on capitol hill, races have become exponentially more expense i, which means members and senators and challengers have to spend more time raising money unless her she can write a big check out of the pocket. when urp spending that much time raising money, it -- as hard as they work and they work very, very hard and have excellent staff, fur spending that much time raising money, it's going to cut into other duties as a legislature. meeting with constituents, hearing their concerns, drafting bills, writing bills. it's just a very difficult balance they have to make. if you go around washington every night there's fundraisers, lob yippists, attended by lobbyists. and corporate folks, or those well-connected people. because members have to get money in order tore run for office. the first thing you're going to do. the people don't understand once a member gets elected, he or she wants to get re-elected. that sort of what drives everything they do. in order to get elected, they need money. to have money they have to meet money. as great as it was to see president barack obama raise $800 million. even he stepped outside the campaign finance system and raised a lot of money in small doe makes nations but wanted -- raised a money -- a lot of money from people who wanted to see things happen. 3w he went to special interest groups, because that is where the money is and what's going to give these powerful organizations time with the conditions congress. some would make an argument that's a case for public financing right there. but how do you do that and balance it with the rights people have to participate in the political process and spend their own money out of their own podget. it's a very difficult issue and a nail hit on the head. a fundamental issue. who is paying for our campaign and how?afr the spill, lobbyists for b.p. kept fundraising hopping. they hosted 53 parties for law makeers and candidates and four skins the explosion and oil spill. lobbyists -- the numbers are based on fundraisers data compiled by sun light foundation. nine of the 11 known fundraisers this year were hosted by lobbyist tony podesta or other lobbyists for his firm. >> b.p. has a right to lobby the government. they have a right to express their views to the government around participate in fundraising. there's clearly politically -- clearly politically sensitive issues taking money around b.p. at this moment. but some may have been in the works beforehand and they carried through with it. but listen, every night in washington there are dozens of these events. challengers, they go to them, because that's where the money is. they go to pack events. they can raise a lot of money at wivepbt that may take them much longer to do it over the internet or smaller events back home. you know, the folks who want things from government. they knew this is a big business. politics is a big business. running for office. campaigning is a big business. it's a multi billion-dollar industry. host: last call comes from al from gary, indiana. 3 caller: yes. i would like to say actually to carve out an exempt disclosure from the n.r.a. would actually inhibit or prohibit my free speech if i had a position that was against the n.r.a. in the sense that before you have free speech, you have to be able to have disclosure and free thought. it actually seems to be unconstitutional for someone to be able to hide and not come through with open disclosure, and that stops and prevents me from even having an opinion to incorporate and use my free speech. guest: well, right now, as the law stands in the wake of citizen's united ruling, there's no requirement for disclosure at all. again, i'm not sure i necessarily agree that to incorporate the n.r.a. would not infringe on someone else's first amendment rights. they felt strongly that they did on theirs. and they felt strongly with the language covering part of the language covering part of the language on this extension. so a group had to be in business for at least 10 years. had to be around for at least 10 years. so they've brought in other advocate groups that also fell into it. so the idea was, dump $10 million into it and then use that to run ads against congressman joe shmoe. i'm not sure that in doing that they -- on the rights of other individuals, but disclosure, as a journalist, disclosure is a good thing. the more, the better. so i think there's a lot of folks in the press who would like to see at leleast some >> tomorrow on "washington journal," are retired general -- a bat and retired general talks about the response of the gulf coast oil spill -- a retired general talks about the response to the gulf coast oil spill. ylan mui talks about new credit- card rules. joan lowy talks about a new request to open up their space to unmanned drones. "washington journal," is live at 7:30 eastern on c-span. >> president obama's remarks in columbus, ohio, and the economy and jobs. after that, coast guard admiral thad allen briefs reporters on the oil spill. then a hearing on the defense -- then the defense briefing on troop withdrawal. bp will place $20 billion to compensate people into an escrow account. it will not pay their shareholders a dividend this year. thursday, tony hayward testified before a house energy and commerce subcommittee. we will show you the testimony sunday at 10:45 eastern on c- span. -- 10:45 a.m. eastern on c-span. >> supreme court justice clarence thomas on the prospect of a new justice. >> you are bringing in a family member. it changes the family. it is different today than what it was when i first got here. i have to admit, you grow very fond of the court that you have spent long time on. >> with the confirmation hearings for elena kagan starting june 28, learn more about the nation's highest court in c-span's latest book," visit bring court -- , "the supreme court." available now in hardcover and also as an e-book. the president obama is visiting columbus, ohio -- >> president obama is visiting columbus, ohio, to discuss the economic stimulus spending plan. this is 15 minutes. [cheers and applause] >> you have one of the best governors, mayors, senators, and sheriffs. i will mention some of the congressional delegation who are here, because they have a lot to do with what is going on at this site. my last visit here was a little over one year ago. i came to take part in a graduation ceremony for 114 -- the 114th class of the columbus police recruits. you may remember that. i know the mayor does. i do not have to tell you these have been difficult times for ohio and for the country. when i was last year, america was losing 700,000 jobs per month. our economy was shrinking. plants and businesses here in ohio were closing. we knew that if we failed to act, then things were only going to get much worse. that is why, with the support of sherrod brown -- sheriff brown -- sherrod brown, and others who are here -- wave, guys. [applause] that is why we worked so hard to pass the recovery act, which cut taxes for middle-class families, boosting demand, cutting taxes for small businesses so that they could make payroll and keep their doors open, extending unemployment insurance and cobra to help folks may get through some really tough times, to rebuild our infrastructure and make an investment that would spur additional investments from the private sector and strengthen our country in the long-run. that is what the recovery act was about. since then, here in ohio, near the 2400 small businesses have gotten loans to keep their doors open as -- nearly 2400 small businesses have gotten loans to keep their doors open. 4.5 million families have gotten tax cuts to pay their bills and keep food on the table. ford 50 transportation projects are under way or have been completed. -- forerunner of 50 transportation projects are underway or have been completed -- 450 transportation projects are under way or have been completed. we're here to mark the 10,000 projects launched under the project. that is worth -- 10,000th project launched under the project. that is worth around of applause -- a round of applause. [applause] secretary ray lahood has done an outstanding job of administering this. these programs improve communities. they put thousands of construction crews to work, just like this one. they have spurred countless small businesses to hire. these guys have to eat. you have to get some food brought in. the local restaurants benefit from the cruise being here at work. it means -- the crew being here at work. means that americans across the country are helping build our future and their own future. as my friend joe biden, who has done a great job overseeing the recovery act, would say, this is a big deal. [laughter] i think it is fitting that we have reached this milestone here in this community. what you are doing here is a perfect example of the kind of innovation and coordination and renewal that the recovery act is driving all across the country. a lot of people came together to make this day possible. business and government. grass-roots organizations. ordinary citizens committed to this city's future. what you're starting here is more than just a project to repair roads. as a partnership to transform a community. the mayor was describing how these people fit together on the way over. the city is using recovery dollars to rebuild the infrastructure. because of that, in part, the hospital is expanding its operations to take even better care of more people, more children, here in columbus and throughout ohio, which means they are hiring more people. together, you are creating more than 2300 new jobs and sending a powerful message that this neighborhood will soon be a place where more families can thrive, more businesses can prosper, economic development can continue. my understanding is, because the hospital is growing, that means they are putting money back into the neighborhood for housing and other facilities so that the entire community start rebuilding. ultimately, that is the purpose of the recovery act. not just to jump-start the economy and get us out of the hole that we're in right now, but to make the investments that will spur growth and spread prosperity, paying dividends to our communities for generations to come. since i was here last year, we have seen progress all across the country. businesses are beginning to hire again. our economy, which was shrinking by 6% when i was sworn in, is now growing at a good clip. we have added jobs six out of the past seven months in the country. we were losing 700,000 jobs per month. for the last six months, we have increased jobs here in the united states of america, partly because of a policy of these members of congress who were willing to step up and implement it. i am under no illusion that we're where we need to be. i know that a lot of families and communities have yet to feel the effects of the recovery in their own lives. there are too many people here in ohio and across the country who cannot find work. many more cannot make ends meet. for these folks, the only jobs we create that matter are the ones that provide for their families. while the recovery may start with projects like this, it cannot end here. the truth is, if we want to keep up the adding of jobs and keep raising income, if we want to keep growing our economy and are middle-class, if we want to ensure that americans can compete with any nation in the world, we're going to have to get serious about our long-term vision for this country and about our infrastructure. i want to say a few words about infrastructure. along with these investments in health care and education, clean energy, the financial system that protects consumers and our economy, rebuilding our timber structure is one of the keys to our future prosperity. -- our infrastructure is one of the keys to our future prosperity. we have to rebuild america from the ports and airways to the roads and the transit system that moves are workers and connects cities and businesses. some of this involves fixing infrastructure that is already in place -- repairing bridges, replacing old sewer lines, and the recovery act has made important investments in these things. we have a huge backlog of work, just with the emperor structure that we have got, that could put hundreds of thousands of people to work all across the country -- just repairing things that we already have. here is the thing, columbus, repairing our existing infrastructure is not enough. we cannot build an economy that sustains our kids and grandkids to us by relying on the infrastructure that we inherited from our parents and grandparents. we cannot let other countries get a jump on us when it comes to broadband access. there is no reason why europe or china should have the fastest framework. there is no reason that germany or other countries in europe should have the newest factories that manufacture clean energy products instead of us here in the united states. that is why the recovery act has been making unprecedented investments in clean energy, spurring america's businesses to build some of the world's largest wind and solar projects, right here in the united states of america. i have said this once before at the state of the union address -- america does not settle for second place. we're going to make investments to make sure we're first in the future, not just in the past. that has to be our priority. that is why we are bringing high-speed internet and thousands -- tens of thousands of homes and businesses, hospitals, schools. that is why ray lahood is leading a surge of new investment in high-speed rail. that is why we invest in electronica medical records. one year ago, american businesses -- in electronic medical records. one year ago, american businesses have been making electric car batteries -- had not been making very mucany collector car batteries. by 2015, we will have 30% of that global market. we have created an advanced battery manufacturing facility right here in the united states to allow us to maintain the cutting edge. from the very first roads to the interstate highway system, our nation has always been built to compete. the history of ohio is a testament to this. nearly two centuries ago, our nation's first federally-funded highways -- the national road -- was extended across ohio, burning and generation of settlers west to the new frontier. -- bringing a new generation of settlers west to the new frontier. for our economy to thrive in this century, we have to act with that sense of purpose and spirit of innovation. that is why the recovery is just beginning. this is just the beginning of the investments we have to make for many years on our infrastructure. it is just the beginning of the work and increasing our mobility, productivity, reducing congestion, reducing pollution, creating good jobs that cannot be shipped overseas. we know what we can achieve when we act boldly and invest wisely. we're seeing it here in this community. we have seen it in the hospital and the deaths of its commitment to the city. we see it in the city leaders who saw a need -- and the depths of its commitment to the city. we see it in the city leaders who saw the need. we are, but and that we'll see it in new families and businesses who call this home. host: caller[captioning performed by national captioning institute] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2010] coming up, a defence department briefing looking at the troop drawdown in iraq. a member of the parliament of iraq will talk about his country's future -- of afghanistan will talk about his country's future. tomorrow on "washington journal" -- a retired general talks about bp's and the government response to the gulf coast oil spill. a reporter looks at the federal reserve's new credit card roles and what they mean for consumers. i transportation reporter for the associated press gives details about a defense of our request to the faa to open up u.s. airspace to unmanned drones. that is live at 7:00 a.m. eastern here on c-span. >> he was a volatile, emotional, very complicated, kind of a depressive young man. he was very adventurists. when he was in america, he was 25 and having adventures. >> take a new look at alexis de tocqueville and his tour of america. there's a new book about it. we will discuss it sunday on c- span's "q&a." >> admiral thad allen says there is a major push to acquire more ships for skimming and additional protective booms. admiral allen is the government coordinator for the bp oil spill cleanup. he briefed reporters in new orleans for about half an hour. >> good morning, folks. i will give you a couple of updates on what is going on at the wellhead. i will be happy to take any questions you might have for me. i am pleased to report that in the 24-hour period ending last night, we were able to cover 25,000 barrels of oil. this is our new system of boats. enterprise and our exploitation of the key line to bring additional oil out and be processed. there are additional vessels being brought into the area. we anticipate by the end of the increase to about 53,000 barrels a month. following that, there'll have to be a decision made when we reach max capacity with the recovery system we have on the scene with the containment cap. at that point, the option will be to actually unbolt the flange and that small section of pipe that remains where we needed to shear cut and actually replace it with a very solid, bolted-on cap that could be linked to a new flexible production system will allow us to use production platforms and shuttle tankers. once that's in place, we have the [inaudible] at that point to increase capacity on the production to 60,000 to 80,000 barrels. that should be somewhere around the middle part of july. we continue to move forward on that and it's proceeding apace. regarding the relief wells, development driller iii, which is drilling a first relief well, is now 10,677 feet below the sea floor starting to close in on the well bore. development driller ii is 4,662 feet below the sea floor and [inaudible] on task. some of the things we're working on this week -- we've had an extraordinary response to our vessel of opportunity program, in excess of 2,000 vessels operating around the gulf. our goal is to create a command and control system and a tracking system where we can most effectively utilize these vessels of opportunity. we only [inaudible] that local expertise and passion and we want to channel that and make sure we're creating unity of effort. to that end, we're doing a couple of things. we're organizing these vessels of opportunity in groups, establishing a leader with the capability to communicate. a lot of these folks are very, very small and may or may not have radio systems. we're also putting automated identification system tracking devices on the larger vessels so we can bring those in to our common operating picture and have them actually displayed on a computer. we actually brought in extra aircraft into the area to increase surveillance as well. most recently, three additional h-65 aircraft were deployed to air station new orleans to provide overhead sighting. the goal is, over this week and into next week, is to create a command and control structure and a communications backbone to allow us to effectively deploy and utilize all those 2,000 vessels of opportunity that are out there. that reflects somewhat of a change in situation in both the supply and demand of assets. most recently, earlier this week, we announced the new flow rate numbers and, as you know, we think it's somewhere around -- 35,000 is the most probable, but the rate is going to 50,000 or 60,000 barrels a day at the high end of the scientific evaluation. to that end, we need to redouble our efforts in -- regarding skimming capability from shore out to about 15 miles [inaudible] we have all this disaggregated oil starts to go to shore. we have the opportunity to do that with the vessels of opportunity that have volunteered their services to us, and now it' it is an indication of the passion of local people who want to get best -- to want to get involved in the cleanup. the important thing is university -- unity of effort. opportunity. [inaudible] let's work with some fish guides out on barataria bay [inaudible] the jack-up rigs on the barges down there. later on today i'll be meeting with deputy secretary jane lute and deputy secretary david hayes from interior. deputy secretary lute is deputy secretary of homeland security. we will go down to grand isle. we will -- we will also get a briefing on the vessels of opportunity and hopefully get out on the water and see what they're able to do down there. this follows several other trips i've made to grand isle with the president where we met with the local watermen regarding the best use of these vessels of opportunity. so i will tell you this is focused on vessels of opportunity and getting the command and control down right so we can most effectively apply these resources. and to that end, the best place we can apply them right now is in the area from onshore to 15 miles off where we have these patches of oil and trying to beat it before it comes on land. so with that, i'll be glad to take your questions, folks. >> [inaudible] >> sure. we're coordinated with dod right now to take a look at the availability of skimmers within the navy inventory. that is right now between us and the department of defense and that will be worked out today. we're also looking at the entire availability around the country. we're actually starting to manufacture skimmers in places like port fourchon and other places. what i told the folks is don't anticipate demand can ever be met on skimmers. getting as many as we can make and as fast as we can get them here is what we need to do. we're hoping to have a larger strategic assessment of the exact -- actual gap that we've got and how many we will need ultimately. part of the problem is we never had to deal with oil dispersed across this wide an area, but we have the availability of the 2,000 vessels of opportunity. some cases you need skimmers that are actually integrated into ship [inaudible]. other cases you need what we have -- what we call vessel of opportunity where you take skimming equipment and just give it to a local boat and they could tow it behind it. so when we talk about skimmers, we're not -- we're talking about skimmers that are actually vessels and skimming equipment that can be put on a vessel of opportunity, and we're working through that right now. >> [inaudible]. >> well, we're pulling everything we can as we -- and we're actually -- it's ordering. it takes six to eight weeks to actually build a skimmer. we got the production orders in. we're just -- it's kind of like the situation. what we're doing is we're taking all of it as quickly as we can get it and we'll have some more later on today or monday on that. yes. apparent until last friday, you give us a figure -- >> until last friday, you gave us a figure that is now changing. what is the cumulative number of the coast line that has been impacted? >> i do not think any single number really describes it all. ck three or four hundred yards, that's a much more significant impact than the linear length would tell you. and what we're trying to do is drive the right metric associated with that. ultimately, i think we -- in my view, there needs to be a length and a depth to this and try to come up with the right way to describe this and communicate it and we'll working on that continuously [inaudible]. >> we know you're interested in the beaches that have been cleared. how have they been impacted? >> if i get the specifics, i will be happy to follow through with you. i do not have the numbers. >> as the oil continues to merv -- move further east, one of the criticisms but local leadership has is that the response has been too busy looking at the big picture and not feeling the immediate sense of emergency. the have a response? >> we took significant steps on that -- >> do you have a significant response? >> we took significant steps on that. we took significant steps this week to do that. first of all, the incident command post in mobile, which is responsible for coverage of panhandle of florida. i directed the established three deputy positions, one for each state on the -- what the requirements are and to reduce cycle time between the reported target. in addition, at the -- after discussions with governor crist and the president when we were in florida, we're going to put -- we are in the process of [inaudible] into the management team in the tallahassee at the emergency operations center. so [inaudible] response cell in the state. there will be a deputy at the incident command post in mobile it. we're doing the same thing inwe're going to put an incident management team in biloxi. >> [inaudible]. >> yes, it will. the intent is to delegate authority down for response [inaudible] all the way back up [inaudible] command post [inaudible]. deployed or the skimmers >> what was your response to tony hayward's testimony yesterday? what will the role be and will let extend beyond this? that's a -- that's a matter between him and british petroleum and the committees he was testifying before. regarding secretary mabus, as him yesterday. as a former commandant of the coast guard and former -- and current secretary of the navy, together for the past year or so. we enjoy a great relationship and his request t o me was to forward on this. he's still [inaudible] up his office, but we're going -- we're going to be in close contact. there'll obviously be some work that's being done [inaudible] especially as it relates to long-term environmental impacts. assessment [inaudible] necessarily roll over into that we will be actively coordinating with him. >> is his role going to be significant? >> i would refer those questions to him. we're in communication. we of a great working relationship and a lot of mutual respect, as well as a longstanding friendship. >> [inaudible]. >> sure. >> [inaudible]. >> what's going to happen is, i think i mentioned earlier, by the -- by the end of the month we should be approaching 53,000 barrels a day capacity. we're going to max out at that point on what we can produce with the current status on the wellhead. and what i mean by that is what you have is the discoverer enterprise is fixed to the wellhead to that riser pipe, but we have the choke and the kills lines, which we use to try and force mud down the blowout preventer into the wellbore. we tried the top kill, which was unsuccessful. we are bringing two ships in -- the q4000 and another production vessel -- to take oil up to the choke and the kill line. that'll enhance production up to 53,000 barrels a day, but that's all you can do with that diameter pipe and the flow that goes through it. the goal beyond then, and that's -- it's going to be a critical decision to be made around the 1st of july -- will be whether or not we want to unbolt that final section of pipe, that little piece of riser pipe that was cut with the shear cut, and replace it with a multi-fitting device over the top that's actually bolted, in which case you've sealed it. and then increase production rate to the floating production the cutover that will allow us to achieve that type of containment and that type of production and redundancy will have to be accompanied with the decision to replace the connection at the top and lower marine riser package. that -- was that responsive? >> [inaudible]. >> [inaudible] i'm -- that should be around the 1st of july. a couple things have to happen first. they have to install, and they're doing this as we're speaking, they have to install what's called a floating riser package. and what they're going to do is they're going to take a section of riser pipe that's about 4000 feet long and they're going to suspend it under water. they're going to anchor it to the bottom. it's got flotation collars around the riser pipe. and there'll be a buoy on top just below the surface so it's suspended. runs from the well over the riser pipe, then a flexible hose for the production platform. potentially we create two of those, take the oil coming out of the wellhead at two top and then pushing it to shuttle tankers. this is what we do in the north sea. then we do -- then [inaudible] these pipelines [inaudible] that oil. we're bringing shuttle tankers. once we get to that point, we'll have redundancy and we'll have 80,000 barrels a day. being put in place. is that responsive? >> you're looking at a place that could have an unrestricted flow. what other factors would you consider? >> if we get near 53,000 barrels per day and we consider those bends --vents, and there is almost no oil leaking, we will decide if we think that is good enough in terms of containment until the relief well is drilled. there is another issue that has to be considered about a floating riser pipes -- the floating riser pipes which can be decoupled. hurricane season is upon us. we may have to shut operations down, evacuate, and redeploy. the floating riser system will give us better capability with the production vessels to disconnect and reconnect. the risk associated with removing the pipe and installing a new cap, we get better flexibility in the new production system. we have a better ability to withstand a hurricane without losing control completely. >> admiral, how much gas is being captured? >> gassed in what is in the oil strain? -- gas in the oil stream? the gas is flared off. on the q4000, that's the second one we've established, we got our production rates up, both the gas and the oil are being flared off. where we're -- it's being atomized and it's actually being burned off on site, rather than being produced. at some point in the future, q4000 to where we're actually recovering the oil. measurement of cubic feet of gas, and we can give that to you. i just don't have it in front of me. >> [inaudible]. >> the q4000 is flaring gas and oil. in other words, there's a burner, and it's all just being burned as it comes to the surface. on the discover explorer, we're flaring the gas, burning off the natural gas, and we're producing the oil, and that's being shifted to a tanker. what we're trying to do is get as much out of the well so it's not going to the surface. that's the [inaudible]. >> operator, begin taking questions from the phone line. >> your first question is from bryan walsh. please state your affiliation. >> bryan walsh with "time magazine." admiral, do you expect any additional increases in the flow rate going forward? i mean, as you mentioned today, knowing that higher flow rate, you had to really redouble surface cleaning. at this point, are you confident that this is the highest number; you won't have any more surprises down the line? >> well i think we have the best range of estimate s on flow rate, given the information we hold right now. and there are basically three sources of information on the flow rate. one is the amount of oil we're able to observe on the surface with satellite and aviation sensors that actually take readings on the amount of oil. the second is our estimates on the volume that's being released, and using high- resolution video to understand what is the density of the product coming forward, how much of that is natural gas, water, oil and sediment, and then the velocity at which it's rising. that's the second input. the third input we have is actually from testing that was done by the woods hole oceanographic institute, where they deployed acoustic sensors that actually they're sending sonar signals across and get the density of that column. all of that, in aggregate, and plus some pressure readings we're taking at the blowout preventer, at the direction of salazar, led marcia mcnutt and the flow rate technical group to come up with the range that we have right now. i continue to challenge them to refine their products, challenge their assumptions, look at their analysis, and try to continually improve. i think we're at a plateau right now, as far as knowledge of the makeup of the column of product that's coming up. i think what we're really going to find out is when we finally get to almost zero leakage out of the production that's going on, and actually get the flow rates, i think that will tell us empirically exactly how much oil's coming out. and i think until we get there -- get to that point, it's always going to be an estimate and a range surrounding that with probabilities attached to it. so i think, right now, mid-30's i think is the most probable, and as high as 60, as we released earlier this week. i think we're going to stay at that point for a while unless new information is developed. and i think what we need now is empirical data that's actually based on production [inaudible]. next question? >> your next question is from kristen hays. >> good morning, admiral. this is kristen hays with reuters. -- that relief well one was starting to close in on the catch the exact amount of feet they've both drilled down, if you could repeat that please? and second, is it still accurate to say about 120 miles of shoreline has been soiled or touched by oil? >> ok, first of all, the development driller iii, which is the first relief well, the drilling rig is now at 10,677 feet below the sea floor. the development driller ii is drilling the second relief well, the risk mitigator, is at 4,662 feet below the sea floor. i took a -- i took a question earlier on the amount of shoreline that's been impacted. i think we need to make some clarification and put that out to you. and what we'll do is we'll put out a statement later on this morning that actually gives you the actual coastline impacted and the assumptions that are associated with that, so you actually something in writing. >> all right. thank you. >> next question. >> well, i tried. >> your next question is from jaquetta white. please state your affiliation. >> hi, jaquetta white with the "times-picayune." already asked on the phone. we had some trouble hearing the questions in the room. but i do have two questions. one, what is the status of the massachusetts? has it returned from mobile yet, and when will it begin the discover enterprise for anotherand then the second, if you could just run through, again, what the considerations will be in july 1st, assuming that the -- all the oil that is escaping is being captured? i know the ability to operate during a hurricane will be one, but what else will you consider in deciding whether to take the something else in its place? first of all, let me apologize to everybody on the phone. i just realized that when i was giving my brief i had a piece of paper over the top of the speakerphone. so i am the source of your problems this morning. i'll try not to do that tomorrow. the massachusetts is the tanker that we use to offload the amount of oil that's been shuttled to mobile, alabama. location, but we will release that later on this morning. we'll just go find out. i just -- i just was not aware of that when i came in this that. just to restate, because the question was asked here in the room, let me -- let me state one more time for the folks on the phone. we will have a decision to make after we reach 53,000-barrel production, which is the maximum we can get out of exploiting the flow from the wellbore casing itself, and the choke, and the kill lines to three different production platforms. one will be the discover enterprise, another one will be another production vessel that's being moved into place right now, and the third one is the q4000 that is on place right now, and it is flaring both gas and oil to get rid of that so iteverything else we're producing and bringing to shore. the cutover point will be somewhere around the 1st of july when we have to make a decision to go to a more flexible, more survivable system. but that will involve unbolting the riser pipe from the lower main riser package, and there will be an element of vulnerability there while we bolt a new system on board to allow us to basically achieve what we hope will be 90 percent containment. and that's where that comes from. is that responsive? i guess i'm also curious what to decide -- i thought it was almost a given that you normally, you just operate that way until the relief well was finished. the issue is that we have a hurricane season. we need a better way to hook up and disconnect from the production facilities if we have hurricanes approaching. that is separate and distinct from the production issue, but it creates of vulnerability. if we stayed at the 53,000- morals and had to disconnect those in a hurricane, we have better options with the floating riser connections. there is a capacity issue. is it good enough? the second thing is survivability. both have to be taken into account. >> this will be the last question for the conference line. >> your last question is richard harris. stay or affiliation. >> i am from national public radio. you stated that the drilling had gotten down to almost 10,000 feet. did they get 700 additional feet over night? >> i look at the number each morning. i would have to look at what i said yesterday. it is an incremental increase from the day before. we're at 10,677 feet this morning. i would have to look at the report yesterday. i get the latest number beforr i walked in for the press briefing. it is a variable amount each day to. it is dependent on the strata. the are angled over. they have diverted at about a 30-degree angle from the original well bore. they are drilling back toward the pipe. we'll get the difference from yesterday and today and explain that if that will be helpful. >> i wonder why-you came up with the range of 35,000 to 60,000 barrels per day. why is the lower end of the range most probable? >> i am taking input from the head of the flow rate technical group. they are trying to accommodate our range of analyses and opinions about a subject matter with the experts or represented there. there are different dots between the -- thoughts between pre qand post -- pre and post. the data is analyzed by a number of experts. we're not trying to exclude anybody. there is a wide range. some members of the group think you could be much higher. the thinking of the group is represented by the chair, in the mid-30,000. thank you. thanks, folks. >> all done. >> a c-span group recently went to st. patrick's catholic church in port sulfur, louisiana, to look at relief efforts for local fishermen who have lost work because of the oil spill. they spoke with relief workers and some of the fishermen. [inaudible] >> my name is myrtle phillips. i am from grand bayou. i am here to get a food voucher. i am a commercial fisherman. >> what kind of fishing do you do? >> shrimp. >> have you got some help here before? >> yes, sir. >> what is the process like? >> we have been here since 4:00 this morning. we're now number seven. there were seven people ahead of us. >> first-come, first-served. >> they give out 75 numbers. if your number 76, you do not get anything. we got here last week at 7:10, and we were 85. >> we're distributing food cards and food vouchers. these are for $100 for these local restores. we also wanted to offer a winn- dixie card because, there are items that the stores did not have that the public may need. the vietnamese population purchases jasmine rice there. we wanted to try to accommodate them. >> myrtle, nice to meet you. here is your card. are there any children in the household? >> no, sir. >> how many people are in the family? >> just me. >> sign this. >> we are native american. with been here for 300 years -- we have been here for 300 years. it is not only a way of life that is gone. it is our heritage and everything else that is gone with it also. >> have you received anything from bp? >> not a dime. i put in applications to go to work and i have not received any calls. >> we went through katrina. we came back from that. i guess we will bounce back from this, too. we lost everything in katrina. house had eight-feet of water. >> good morning. >> can i film this? >> i have been trimming for 69 years. i got it from my uncle. i am -- freedom. when you work, it is freedom, especially when you're the boss and you do whatever you want. i tried to put in 12 or 13 hours. >> what kind of help have you received? have you gotten anything from the e? >> i have gotten two checks from the p -- from bp. i got another one just one week ago. >> what kind of help do you get here? m a food stamps -- >> food stamps. >> we give them $100 gift certificates once a week. they can get a gift certificate. we pay one bill for up to $200 every month for them. at the end of the month, he will be enrolled in a long-term plan to help develop a plan for restructuring the lifestyle for the future. >> what about the fishermen? i've been working all my life. i've been right here on the gulf coast. they're shutting us down. we cannot work. we got one check from bp. we assistance here for food. a lot of people here -- they are waiting for their second check. there are lots of questions about that. the only thing we can do is wait it out. >> we only have a certain amount that we are allowed to distribute. for each week, we can do 125 at this particular location. we're doing 75 today and 50 tomorrow. it is unfortunate. there are more than 125 families living here who have been affected. >> ok. ok. [speaking foreign language] >> 75 cards for seven to $500 total. >> it is coming from -- $7,500 total. >> i believe is coming from bp. i think it ended around june 10. my understanding is a lot of it has been coming from bp. >> you are welcome. >> up next, a defense of our member reading on u.s. troop drawdown in iraq. after that, a member of the afghan parliament talks about the future of this country. then, a discussion on campaign finance legislation. >> the u.s. and russia account for 90% of the world's nuclear- weapons. in april, both countries signed the s.t.a.r.t. 33, agreeing to reduce that to levels not seen since the 1950's. the secretary of state and defense urged the senate to approve that treaty. see their testimony saturday morning on c-span. this weekend on c-span2's "booktv," a discussion of the autobiography which chronicles a violent and corrupt -- one of the most violent and corrupt places on earth. a vietnam veteran talk about the novel that took him 30 years to publish which follows soldiers through vietnam. on that schedule on booktv.org. join us on twitter. an update on the state of iraqi security forces with a lieutenant general for advising and training in iraq. he also commands the nato training mission in that country. he briefed reporters at the pentagon about timeline for iraq forces to take full responsibility for their internal security. he also talked about the u.s. troop withdrawal. this is about 25 minutes. >> is my privilege to introduce the general. he began his tour in october of last year. this is our first opportunity to have him back into the briefing room in this particular capacity. obviously, he is such a crucial element of the iraqi mission. we appriate you taking the time to come and give us an update and take a few questions. we hope our colleagues will join us. general, thank you again for the winning us. >> okay, thank you. and good morning. let me -- i'd just like to start off with a few comments, and then take your questions. i know we're all watching the process of the forming of the iraqi government very closely. buwhat i've been watching more closely is the development of the capabilities of the iraqi security forces. in my current duties, i work daily with u.s. forces-iraq, nato, and senior iraqi leaders to build the capabilities of iraqi security forces throughout iraq. i'd like to take a couple of minutes to tell you what i'm seeing first-hand, then take your questions. everyone knows the iraqi security forces have made remarkable progress since 2004. thanks to a lot of hard work and sacrifice, the security situation has improved dramatically. violence is down more than 50 percent since this time last year when iraqi security forces took the lead for security in the cities, and down 90 percent than we experienced at the height of the surge. however, there is still progress to be made. yesterday, there were 11 attacks -- three of them effective -- producing two iraqi security force casualties. still, given the progress i see, my honest assessment remai that the iraqi security forces will be ready on 1 september to take full responsibility for internal security. i'd like to now give you a quick thumbnail description of the iraqi security forces, and a sense for their developing capabilities. first, it's important to note that we've moved beyond force generation, building -- moved from building large numbers of iraqi security forces to focus on force sustainment, with a shift in effort to the specialization and professionalization of the force. the ministry of defense has put over 245,000 personnel in uniform and has managed the world's fastest-growing army, navy and air force. the army is a very capable counterinsurgency force, with more than 238,000 trained soldiers, who are preparing to transition from a counterinsurgency-focused force to building conventional defensive capabilities. the first of 140 m-1 tanks will begin rolling in this summer, and the iraqi army has already trained 65 tank crews, with more in training now who will be ready to man them. the army is actively training at 11 iraqi-run training centers across the country, honing specialized individual skills and working towards a large joint training exercise planned for april 2011. the air force now operates more than 100 aircraft and has nearly doubled in personnel in the past year, set to grow to 10,000 airmen. they are training their own fixed-wing and helicopter pilots. on election day, the iraqi air force flew over 120 sorties, providingntelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance with real-time downlinks to their operation centers. they also provide essential airlift and battlefield mobility. the iraqi navy is also growing in size and capabilities. they possess more than vessels, used to protect offshore critical oil infrastructure, territorial waters and the commercial ports. the navy conducts 50 patrols a month in this mission, a 300 percent increase in patrols from this time last year. they have been fully responsible for securing one of the two critical oil platforms for over six months. additionally, the first of 15 new u.s.-built patrol boats arrive later this summe and the first crews for those patrol boats, 50 iraqi sailors, are currently training in louisiana today. the iraqi counterterrorism forces are the best in the region. they are very experienced, conductg warrant-based operations every night across iraq. similarly, the ministry of interior has fielded a force of more than 410,000 police. over the next month, they will begin the transition to police primacy, where the ministry of interior and police forces take the lead for internal security. at the federal and local levels, police are increasingly capable, making iraq safer for the citizens of iraq so they can participate in the democtic process, something more than 62 percent of eligible iraqi voters did just three months ago. but there's a deeper story here that goes beyond these statiscs. not only are iraqi security forces better trained and equipped, but they are changing their approach to the security mission in fundamental ways -- true paradigm shifts that are unique in this region. while still developing, rule of law and demratic policing are becoming the norm, with a focus on protecting the population. counterterrorism operations are all warrant-based. and the iraqi judicial system is evolving from reliance on confessions for convictions to one that relies on hard evidence and forensic science. and we are starting the initial steps to integrate the forces of the kurdish regional governnent into the iraqi security forces. security forces have also embraced institutional training and have fully acknowledged the importance of sustainment. in the defense forces, we are seeing the emergence of a noncommissioned officer corps, another unique paradigm shift in this region. finally, they have taken the lead in the day-to-day training as well, leaving our forces focused on training the iraqi trainers. so the investment and sacrifice we've made are creating real opportunities for a more stable and secure iraq, and for a lonterm strategic relationship with iraq. i mentioned earlier that iraqi security forces will be ready to take full responsibility for internal security on 1 september as the united states forces' mission transitions to operation new dawn. more than just another phase in the responsible drawdown of forces, new dawn puts our main task -- to advise, assist, train and equip iraqi security forces -- into clear focus. and it is a critical milestone in the progress that has been made. while there has been much and tremendous progress, in building the capabilities of the iraqi security forces, much hard work remains. and some essential capabilities are still being developed. however we are on track to achieve our mission: to build the minimum essential capabities of the iraqi security forces by december 2011. in tactical terms, the last 100 meters toward seizing an objective is the most critical part of the mission and the point where the commander brings all those resources together to close with and achieve his objective. i believe we are at this point now, in the last 100 meters of this critical mission. so with that, i look forward to your questions. thank you. courtney. >> you mentioned in your statement -- at the end of your statement that there are some essential capabilities still being developed. what are some of those? >> well, let me do a quick review of where i think iraqi security forces will be in december 2011. i think the ministry of interior and the police forces, as i said earlier, will be fully capable of providing for the internal security of iraq. the army, while they will have fielded all of their 140 m1 tanks, that does not equal a combined arms capability, a conventional defensive pability. so they wl not have fully developed that capability. the iraqi air force quite frankly will not be able to provide air sovereignty. they'll have two of the components of air sovereignty: the ability to see with radars, respond with a command-and- control capability. but th will not have the capability to respond with some sort of aircraft. and the counterinsurgency forces, i think they'll be fully capable to continue these counterterrorist operations into -- beyond 2011. yes. >> did you say that was -- i'm sorry, did you say summer or december of 2011? >> december. >> december. >> 2011. yes. >> sir, let me go back to your opening statement. >> sure. >> you have sa that the size of the iraqi army is 245,000? >> 248,000. >> 48,000. >> yes. >> okay. my questiois, what's the size that you think that the iraqi forces need reach in the upcoming years? >> well, iraq -- that's a question for the iraqi leadership to determine. i know that they're in the process and just have initiated some studies to analyze what should be the final configuration of the iraqi security forces. but in the short term, i think we need to add about 1,200 more to the iraqi special operations -pforces, and they'll be ready o go. we've just recently added to the navy, for their ability to man the increasing number of platforms. and the air force still needs to grow a little. so they're -- as i said, they have a number of studies ongoing, and they're studying -- and they're looking at what they should be, how many divisions, what type of configuration. but i think we have an opportunity to shape that in the near future. i think we have an opportunity, as i said, to help the iraqis achieve police primacy, where the ministry of interior and police forces are in control for internal serity; get the army out the cities. and that also allows the army to focus on and train for their conventional defensive capabilities. so i think in the next 18 months those are two opptunities which we must initiate and then help the iraqis through. >> and just to follow up, then can you give us an update about the status of the sons of iraq right now? >> right. the sons of iraq are being -- it's a government-of-iraq-run program. you know, i left iraq in september 2008 -- correction -- yeah, september 2008; came back just last september. and one of the surprises that i saw was how the sons of iraq had been adopted and it is now an iraqi government-run operation. they're being paid regularly. forty percent of the sons of irahave been incorporated into government of iraq institutions, with, i think, 30 -- correction, 40,000 have been, with 30,000 incorporated into non- security institutions. so it's ongoing and it's working, and the iraqis have -- are running that operation. yes, luis. >> general, when september 1 comes the mission becomes a training- and-assist mission, you're talking about how the iraqis are shifting from a coin focus to conventional. is that what our forces are going to be doing mostly, they're going to be helping them sht towards conventional training? >> wellwe'll be helping the iraqi police provide for the internal security. and as i said, we're going to start the process this year of transitioning the iraqi army's focus from being a counterinsurgency force to one that has conventional capability. so, yes, our forces are involved in that, right now training m-1 crews, but i think we'll become more involved as we ize this opportunity before we depart. >> and the policetraining mission, how long do you envision that one going on for? >> well, we're going to do it until december 2011, and then one of the transitions we have to manage is the transition to inl, state department. and that's on track. i think it's important, when you look at training iraqi police, especially, it's iraqis that are training it. they have 18 training centers across iraq, all iraqi-run. i went to two down in al kut just two weeks ago, and it's iraqi commanders. we have maybe one civiln adviser in each of the training centers. so we're not training iraqi police, except for a few specialized skills. the iraqis have it. they run their own logistics for the police. we're focused on helping them field these specialized skills -- forensics, canine teams, counter-explosives, criminal investigations. so that -- the transition of the iraqi police to an iraqi-run operation is well on its way. and this transition to the state department, i think, is well on its way, too. . . >> and also to get the judiciary to accept it as evidence in the courts. as you look at this region, canine -- i have concerns about it, but they have adopted it. not only the canine handler is, but veterinarians, etc.. that is under way. some of these programs are under construction. we need to help move them along. there will be a need for advising and for their professional as asian after september. >> when they take over the mission in late 2011, will it be diplomatic security, providing security to the state department? will it be a bump up in the number of security contractors? and there is a request for the state department for a large military equipment, so do you know what the status of that is? >> about the equiping request, i am not seeing a specific request. we have coordinated this transition with them. the first concern of any commander is force protection. i have 1200 american soldiers spread out across iraq. i worry about force protection every day. even though we're down to 11 attacks. some of those areas are very secure. i think it is prudent for the state department to take a look and make sure that they have forced protection in place for their forces 18 months from now. as far as whether it is for protection or contractors, i just don't know. >> when we get down to 50,000, what will that 50,000 lookalike in the way of what types of units will that be? is it mostly special forces? >> no, it will be mostly advise and assist brigades from the united states army. their mission will be to partner with the iraqi security forces and advise and offer assistance to them as they continue this development and build their capabilities. n the institutions, in the schools and centers across iraq, because one thing we want to do is build this institutional capacity, which i think is well on its way, so it endures and is self- sustaining after we depart. so one of our goals is to link iraqi institutions with american institutions and other institutions in nato. and i'll give you a few examples. there's being constructed an iraqi international academy which will eventually be a regional studies center, which has links to -- will have lin to the nato defense college, to the marshall center, to the national defense university, to help as i said become a regional studies center for security issues. i talked to our united states army training and doctrine command commander, general dempsey -- who had my job a couple years ago -- about, how do we tie the iraqi army schools into our schools? and we're going to pursue that. so a number of programs alg those lines. we want to make sure that whatever weo here will endure and be sustained by the iraqis after 2011. yes. >> yes, goi back to the iraqi air force, we heard lately that the iraqi government has requested the f-16 from the u.s. government. can you talk a little bit about that? >> the iraqi government has requested f-16s from the united states, and we're now in the process -- as you can imagine, it is a very complex process which involves state department and congressional notification. and we're developing, based on the request for the specific capabilities that they want: what does that package look like, when can it be delivered and, obviously, what the cost of it is going to be. so we're in the process of developing that back here in washington right now. >> well, when do you expect that the process will end and they wilreceive those? >> i couldn't answer that. and as i said, it depends on some milestones that have to be met back here, working through the state department and congressional notification. and it's something that'll be managed here in the administration. so i -- from baghdad, i could not answer that. but i know the iraqis are interested in and they have requested f-16s. yes, sir. >> yeah, you've been talking about shifting the iraqi army from a coin capability to a conventional warfar capability, with these 140 m-1 tanks, and i presume other supporting capability. >> right. >> is there any kind of threat orientation to the -- to this shift, to the training that you'll be giving, in terms of these new capabilities? >> we are building it on a capabilities basis. an iraqi navy, for ame, must be capable of protecting the critical oil infrastructures, territorial waters and the critical ports; an iraqi air force that can provide air mobility, isr and air sovereignty; an iraqi army that can protect the sovereignty of iraq and protect its borders. so that's how we're focused on building capabilities. but i will tell you, in conversations with senior iraqi leaders, the iranian threat and iranian activities in iraq comes up as they talk about future capabilities. and so it is -- they are concerned about it. they look at these iranian surrogate groups -- kata'ib hezbollah, asa'ib al-haq -- which are active in iraq still, not only attacking u.s. forces, but iraqi security forces. and i believe these activities are creating antibodies in iraq. so we're building towards capabilities, but the iraqis are very are that they live in a neighborhood where they must be able to protect iraqi sovereignty. >> sir, you spoke about this upcoming exercise, joint exercise in april. >> right. >> are we talking about a tabletop? is this a real-field -- >> no. >> -- exercise and how different is it? i mean, are you going to require additional forces than what you need now, with different capabilities? >> no, it's going to be mostly iraqi forces. and the iraqi minister of defense has issued an order, and the anning within -- by the iraqi joint headquarters and ministry of defense has started. it will be a naval -- some sort of naval exercise, vicinity of umm qasr, hopefully withome of the coalition forces there. it will be an army exercise, we think centered around their large and very capable training center at besmaya, maybe using ome of the m-1 tanks and some other capabilities they have. it will -- we think it will also include iraqi special operations forces at possibly another location, and probably some sort of senior-level seminar to talk about security concerns i the region. so stillldeveloping now. the iraqis are planning it. and, but it's scheduled for april 2011. >> so the u.s. role will be much -- >> support. we could participate with a modest number of forces. that's still to be determined. but this is iraqi -- they've got the lead in this, and we're supporting them. >> if i could go to september again, it sounds like what's going to happen in september is that the number of forces -- the forces that remain are just going to be pretty much doing exactly what they've been doing right now. it's just the number that's significant. >> i think -- you know, i've read something from secretary tes which he says, this is an important milestone in our evolving relationship. our mission is going to change. the mission of u.s. forces will change to a focus on as i said advise, assist, train and equip. so that's significant. and a lot of it as you said is ongoing today. the progress and capabilities of iraqi security forces have allowed our commanders to already focus on this. but 1 september, it will become official. and all of our forces in iraq will be focused on this very important mission. and it's more than the 50k. it's a change in mission. it's -- i think as i said it's a milestone, as we continue to move forward. yes. >> general, viola gienger from bloomberg news. can you talk a little bit about the leadership skills in the iraqi military and police, and how those are developing and how much further they have to go, and also about compensation? and what -- how would you gauge the current risk of potential corruption? is that still a lingering concern? or is that taken care of? >> no. first of all, corruption remains a problem. it remains endemic in iraq. iraqi leaders i talk to realize it and realize they musto something about it. they've taken some steps, in standing up some of these inspector general offices in both the ministries i deal with -- ministry of interior, ministry of defense -- and some corruption activities. but we have a long way to go. we've told our iraqi partners that if you want to attract foreign investment, you must deal with this. so i think the -- it will be a major task for the new government. the iraqi leadership in both the ministries and in the forces is very capable, very confident. they've been fighting, you know, for six years. and the cream has risen to the top in both the police -- which is a remarkable change from the bad days of the national police back in 2004 and 2005. now the federal police is a very professional force. in my nato hat, we have ilian carabinieri who train them every day. and they are very well led and professional. in a recent poll, 80 percent of iraqis who were polled expressed confince in their iraqi security forces, which i think is the strongest testimony to their professionalism and their development. >> can i just get a quick clarification? >> yes. sure. >> when you -- you were just answering another question. you said that this is more than 50 -- it's goi to be more than 50,000. you didn't mean, though -- >> no. i mean -- i mean, it means more than 50,000. >> okay. >> yeah. [laughter] i certainly don't want to leave here sang -- >> no, no, no, no. that's not the headline -- otherwise i'd go back to baghdad and never be able to come back. >> they seem to be doing that to you anyway. >> no, no. >> all right. well, if that's it, i wanto thank you all for coming. and thank you, general, for taking the time. >> great. >> i know that we tend to focus on other theaters right now, but this is very important. and thank you for this. >> great. good to see you all again. thank you. >> thanks, general. >> thanks. [captioning performed by national captioning institute] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2010] >> general david petraeus continued to support the president's planned to withdraw american troops from that country. we will show you his testimony tomorrow starting at 12:20 eastern on c-span. and now, a member of the afghan parliament talks about what he sees as afghanistan's ineffective government under president karzai and of offers suggestions to improve the lives. this lasts about 90 minutes. >> good morning, and let me welcome you to george washington university and to our roundtable, our ambassador round table series. even though not a formal ambassador, he has an ambassador to the afghan people of the united states and vice versa. this is, i believe, the forty fifth in the series where we have ministers with responsibility for counter terrorism or we have had ambassadors representing their countries in the united states to talk on some of the challenges their countries are facing both domestically as well as regionally. estically as well as --. we are delighted today, and we have some competition. if i were not here, i would be glued to the t.b like many of my friends are, with your consequences that if i were living in somalia, were watching soccer is not an option. the stakes and the outcomes for today's discussion is great as the world cup is, are much greater. obviously, the future of afghanistan not only has great impact to the united states, but most importantly to the afghan people. we are delighted today to have someone shared his perspectives and his pulse as to where afghanistan is today, where it is going in the future. most of the "newsweek see and hear in the united states is rarely positive -- most of the news we see and hear in the united states is rarely positive. there are reserves that are untapped, both copper and lithium, but obviously, afghanistan has its hands full in terms of challenges. politics anywhere is a contact sport. it is obviously a difficult set of issues, but i think in afghanistan is much more so, where increasingly politicians to stand up against the taliban and other forces find themselves in very tough positions, including assassinations. most of you read just last week the young 7-year-old who was hanged because his grandfather was trying to push back on some of the taliban in the region, and obviously this has some significant consequences for all our books. i just met daoud today, but i have read some of his statements over the years, and the resonated with me. this is someone who is fighting not only for better afghanistan, but someone who is standing up and making bold statements, as well as the need for faster, quicker, and better political reform in afghanistan. politics everywhere is tough, and is that much more so in afghanistan. we are delighted today to be able to host daoud sultanzoy, who is the chairman of the economics committee in the parliament in afghanistan to share some thoughts with us. maybe 20 minutes, and then we will open that up to questions and answers. we also welcome our c-span viewers this morning. >> thank you very much for the opportunity. the most important thing of like to say today, probably the most important part of my statement, is to think the people of the united states for their generosity, their sacrifices, and their willingness to persevere against all odds, where politics dictates other things. the people of the united states at this point and afghanistan recognize that the stakes are so high, it is not just about security in afghanistan, but the extension of that stability or lack thereof can affect not only the region but beyond that region. you look at the demographics of afghanistan, about 85% of the population of that country is below age 25. again, i think the people of the united states -- thank the people of the united states. we appreciate the sacrifices that your young men and women have made, and the fallen soldiers in the country will not be forgotten. it is for freedom, for dignity of human beings, not just one country. while it is easy to politicians to use slogans like civilian casualties to legitimize their presence, it is important to recognize the sacrifices and say that these people are there for a cause. even civilian casualties happen when taliban and the enemies of freedom are hiding in civilian areas and the cause the civilian casualties, but it is not talked about in that fashion because it is not popular. some of us talk about it. i will tell you a story, just about two months ago in a village near kabul, about 60 kilometers west, there were as a -- there was a house where people got together and said they were burning the koran, the holy book of muslims. some got on a soapbox and try to take advantage up that story. we should have the courage to stand up and bring people back to reality. so i took that liberty and said, let's wait, let's investigate and see if the americans are so 90 or so reckless to come to a muslim country and step on a holy book of the people, does that make sense? tour three years later after the investigation was finished, it was discovered that the taliban had done this. some politicians have to be courageous and sometimes stand up and tell the truth, especially in those parts of the world, because everything has become personalized. systems are built around personalities, and systems collapse after those personalities have gone. therefore, that is what we do not have continuity. that is why we are fighting for a system where people cannot, systems count, not personalities who you systems as their choice. -- who use systems as their choice. it would be better for me to touch on a few things briefly and then open the floor for questions. i am sure it will be more productive that way. i would like to just go back and revisit the situation in afghanistan after 9/11. after 9/11, afghanistan became a very popular subject. the international community's interest created an unexpected level of expectation. that expectation was not managed. some of the expectations were realistic, some were unrealistic, and some of the tension was genuine. some was just a byproduct of the intrinsic attention that cost everything. on one hand, the unprecedented amount of media coverage, that aid money and the attention of the international community, and on the other hand, the inability of the afghan government, the weakness of the afghan government, created a very complicated situation which was mismanaged by the afghan government. we still have not had the courage to acknowledge that. in the third years of war in afghanistan, we have turned into an asian that feels a sense of -- turned into a nation that feels a sense of entitlement. the political leadership in our country has not taken the leadership to emphasize and reinvigorate the necessity of national responsibility. that usually should start from the top, on the political leadership itself. that has been lacking in afghanistan. that is why when the mission started in afghanistan, the people of afghanistan were wholeheartedly a very enthusiastic and totally with the mission. slowly, corruption, lack of rule of law, bad governance, some bad choices by the afghan government, and at least the lack of ability of the international community to recognize certain sensitivities and cultural differences and other things created a recipe that was creating a failure in front of our eyes without us recognizing it. slowly, the people started drifting away from the process, and the government of afghanistan, the leadership in afghanistan did not have the ability to recognize that and stop that. the gap became a vacuum, a void in which the people who were unhappy about the government, the regional players in iran and pakistan and perhaps other countries in the region and beyond, they found this opportunity to instigate further instability, because america was there, because the west was there and this was an opportunity for them to get even with america. so i think we cannot ignore those factors. the most important factor that i always come back to and always point to is our own self responsibility of the nation as a government. that has been very anemic, to say the least. with that, the result of a weak government, the result of a lack of law, the populations alienation created a vicious circle. now the government lacks even a perceived legitimacy that should exist in a government after an election. that in itself has become a negative energy, and the government itself, in order to regain that legitimacy, instead of going to the people to find that, they are trying to go to the donor countries, to the other countries who are helping us, and they are seeking approval and legitimacy elsewhere, where legitimacy should be with the people of the country. this is another mistake we are making. we are busy looking at washington, tokyo, berlin, paris for approval and legitimacy. the closest, easiest place to go and seek that legitimacy is probably in the villages of afghanistan and the homes of afghans who are suffering from corruption, lack of real law, and the resulting effects. for example, you all have self owns, electric -- you all have cell phones, and electric bills. how many of you go to pay your electricity bill and have to bribe people to accept your money that you should be paying? in afghanistan, have experience myself as a member of parliament, i have asked someone to take care of the electricity bill and go paid for, and he comes to me and says we have to bribe the person so we can pay the bill. this is unacceptable. or in order to pay your telephone bill, you have to bribe people. or go in deposit or withdraw your money from a bank, you have to bribe the bank to accept your money or to give your money. nobody will accept this. that is why the legitimacy should be reborn. we need to pay attention to those little things. the little things make the biggest difference in countries like afghanistan. i do not want to depict the doom and gloom picture here. the situation that has created the attention that the world has paid to afghanistan has given us some by-products. freedom of speech, the media, achievements in the telecommunications area, legitimate commerce. these are all things that people did themselves with their own initiatives, investment, and the efforts of free enterprise, people or trying to make a difference in the private sector have created opportunities. these freedoms are also at stake at this point, if we allow things to reverse, and the course is teetering on that edge of reversing themselves. those freedoms that are becoming part of the day life of the afghans are in jeopardy, so we have to be very careful. i am very astonished when i hear in the past few months in different capitals of the world, that we are not in afghanistan to promote democracy. we do not want the american style of democracy or the french or german or european style of democracy. we live in societies in the 21st century where people are looking for basic services, basic individual civic freedoms that humanity needs to conduct its daily affairs. for good governance, for better justice system. these are the essence of democracy. afghan burdo different than americans or europeans when they seek those things -- are no different that americans or europeans when they see those things. a government that guarantees the freedom that every individual thashould enjoy. that becomes the driving force for democracy, for people's participation to take care of their daily affairs, to create a system where they can participate in governance. for lack of a better government in afghanistan, in order to allow people to conduct their daily affairs and govern themselves, this again takes us to a situation where democracy becomes the only choice for the people who want to improve their lives. whether we like it or not, democracy is the choice that people cannot walk back on. there is no other alternative for it. i think the international community and those societies to enjoy a and are sitting on the moral high ground and enjoying democracy, for them to say we are not interested in democracy in a country like afghanistan, it is hypocritical to the entire islamic world. then if we do not do anything, what will happen? those societies will fall into the hands of tyranny and extremism. can we afford that? look at france. just a few months ago, afghan and pakistan refugees were in camps outside paris. why were they there? there were not there to have a good time. they were there because they were looking for some freedoms, economic and political. if we do not pay attention to countries like afghanistan, to provide an opportunity to help those societies have better government, better systems, then where will those tens of millions of young people go to? either they will be absorbed by extremism in their own societies -- some of them can travel. they will go to european countries. by extension, can the united states of for that in the long run? it is only logical and practical to create opportunities in their own countries for them to thrive and prosper and at least live a dignified life in the 21st century. in the past few years, the economic mafia, which has consisted of drug cartels, warlords, and those to gain government positions from the circles, they have treated -- created a political mafia in the country that right now is threatening one of the most important opportunities after the presidential election hamas and horry were, which is the parliamentary election. if we do not pay attention to this parliamentary election, in the only opportunity that the people of afghanistan have to regain self confidence, to regain the trust in the system they are embarking on an experiment they are undertaking, then we would have lost a very, very important opportunity. therefore it behooves our allies, especially the united states of america, especially those of you who are aware of the value of democracy, the value of people's ability to exercise their well, to make sure that we all raise our voices for a free and fair election, if it happens. the most important caveat in my opinion is security. right now, the latest report that have, at least half of the voting centers in the country were declared unsafe or unmanageable because of security. i am not saying that elections should not be held, but they should be held so that people can participate in them. if not, the question should be answered basically in the next few weeks, will have better answers. the security situation improves and is such that we can have fair general elections in most of the country, then i think this is a good opportunity. otherwise, we have to weigh this very seriously, just because we should hold elections to fulfill some political calendars in kabul or in washington or berlin are tokyo, i don't think we should shortchange the taxpayers of the world who are helping us or the afghan people. there are other issues to talk about, but i would also urge good questions that will be raised, and i will address those things. there are 23 other issues that are -- that i will touch upon -- two or three other issues that i will touch upon briefly. we had a piecpeace jurga. some said it was an unnecessary waste of time. in a country where you are embarking on a democratic experience our process, said the exercises of that sort index six exercises of that sort are more beneficial than not having it. the majority of the participants were not elected. there were close to 1700 participants. the majority were not elected. probably about 300 of them were elected members. i was one of them. still, there were 38 committees, and i visited most of those committees and tried to play a role because there were many who wanted to derail the freedoms that we have achieved in the media and in the field of free expression. they wanted to curtail those things. i recognize that, so we visited every committee, and there were vigorous discussions there. there were vigorous debates, disagreements. the conclusion, i thought this was a very good exercise, for getting the political reasons for which was held. none of its recommendations are resolutions are binding. they came up with communiques, as a major before it was held to change the name. it was initially named the peace jurga. then we said in the presence of a constitutional system that has the separation of powers, where the parliament legislates, this jurga has no legal jurisdiction and authority to come up with any sort of resolutions. that is why the name was changed, and the resolutions therefore are non-binding. they are all recommendations, and the government of afghanistan can take those recommendations and turn it into the main points of policy and then bring it to the parliament for approval. that was a good achievement, in my opinion. another thing i would like to talk about is managing the afghan affairs. lately there have been some rumors or at least discussions that afghanistan is going to be subcontracted to pakistan again. i hope that the united states as the main driver of international effort in afghanistan does not look at afghanistan as an extension of anybody's power in that region. afghanistan is a nation. it consists of a proud people there. we are as proud of americans -- as proud as americans. we may have poverty there. we may have had worse, that governments, but one thing that is important, and i disagree with so-called afghan experts when they say afghans do not want governance, they do not like the rule of law, they are unruly people. they do not like this or that. they forget to pay attention to our history. we have never been governed. we have always been ruled. a group of people who have never been governor, how can you conclude that they do not like governance? how can you conclude that they do not like the rule of law? if there -- everything has been at the whim of a few individuals, cousins, brothers, warlords, sons and daughters. if they have ruled the nation for 2.5 centuries, then we come and write books about that nation, that is a very reckless conclusion at the very least. afghans would have to be governed in the 21st century to be part of this world. the world with all its problems requires harmony. the world with all of its challenges ahead of it requires harmony and cooperation. even if a society does not like it, we cannot just leave it and walk away. we have to provide the tools so that society can embark on the same jury that the rest of the world is on, in my opinion. for that and other reasons, afghanistan should not be looked at from be indian or russian or any other lens. we have to clean up and look at it through its own landens. we have to prove it to that region that prosperity and progress in the region, economic opportunities in the region, can create an opportunity for afghanistan to be a bridge. is a very, very obvious thing, which brings me to the last point i would like to make, about a trillion dollars of natural resources that afghanistan is sitting on. we have been privy to some of this information for a while. it is trillions of dollars of natural resources that the country is sitting on. the thirst for raw materials is from china, and the rest of the region there and beyond. it will be who must pay attention -- behoove us to pay attention to how to take care of those resources and not give them into the hands of those who will not only lude but pollute at the same time. this is another challenge that if not mannish, can be a curse also. with that, i would again like to thank the people of the united states, you are institute, a new ladies and gentlemen for being here, and i hope i can answer all your questions. thank you very much. [applause] >> thank you very much for a very comprehensive picture, and one that i think people need to hear and understand. obviously, we have many unanswered questions. i am not sure we are always asking the right questions, but i will take advantage of sitting where i am asking the first, and then opening it up to the audience here. by the way,loot and pollute, that is a pretty good bumper sticker. it almost goes without saying that economic growth and prosperity cannot occur without security underpinned by the rule of law. the question i ask is, who really is the rule law? once you get outside of kabul, it is obviously a very different sort of territory. i was struck by the comment made by the reason resignation of the intelligence minister, who had claimed that basically, karzai felt that the united states and the west was not committed, has cast in his lot with the taliban in pakistan. obviously that does not bode very well for a long-term picture. i would be curious what your thoughts are on that particular statement. also, how we could actually get to that point where we can have even enforcement's. in all alone, it is how we enforce those laws and the spirit behind those principles. i would be curious how you see that potentially emerging. finally, the peace jurga, one of the messages i think came out loud and clear from the recent event, which of course is a positive development, and goodness the suicide or homicide bombing attempt, which was not successful physically, but it was successful in terms of getting all the western media to focus on that event. i think the taliban is recognizing that even failures technically could become strategic successes. how do we change that tie to focus on the things that really matter? >> one of the ways we can take care of some the problems you alluded to with corruption at the village level oracle the national level, or even international corruption that we cannot ignore, is that in a country like afghanistan, the rule law and from top down, respect for law and order, nepotism, all the circle of influence and interested parties who were allied with the president or with other groups, they have created an aura and also a group. the people of afghanistan look at it and say they are invincible, beyond approach, untouchable in the sense of -- first of all, they have political strength. second, they have arms, and at our expense they have gained a lot of wealth also. all these things have combined and created a group that sooner or later, if we are not careful, they will also control the destiny of that nation for many decades to come. so the rule of law and accountability, not only national but international accountability, should not be just a rhetorical slogan. what has the united states or the rest of the world have the -- help the afghan government accountable in practice? on one and we talk about these things, and on the other hand we say and do something else. this sends a mixed signal. it is just like raising a child that is misbehaving. if you give them everything they want without holding them responsible, what happens eventually? i think holding everybody accountable and responsible -- >> you are not saying things have to get worse before they get better. >> know, things are much worse. we have to turn things from rhetoric to practice. i was present at a gathering were the president opened a seminar about fighting corruption, about five months ago. they created a new entity, the high commission to fight corruption. my comment, and immediately after the gathering to the media was, we do not need commissions and committees in seminars and conferences to fight corruption anywhere in the world. if you have laws, if you have a prosecution, if you have courts, and if you have crux, what the need to do? you do not need to give seminars. just put those four things together and get results. there is no lack of corrupt people and high officials in that country. we have laws, we have courts, we have the police, we have the prosecution. all we need to do is have the political will to put the whole thing together. i was sitting about 30 meters away from where the rockets fell in a big tent where the jurga. even in the u.s., you cannot provide 100% security when it comes to terrorism. terrorism is a phenomenon that only population participation, civilians participating in securing their environment, and giving them the incentive to participate, can give us the most percentage of security. but there is no such thing is 100% security anywhere in the world, in my opinion. for that sacking, the best thing i can say is that this sacking was in the mix weeks and weeks and months before this jurga. i saw the signs, and this is the consolidation of power. when people want to turn into strongmaen, they consolidate power, and they go into areas where the security apparatus is and they want to clean that up and bring their own people. this was in the mix for weeks and months before. >> finally, taliban and other entities -- i would be curious how many western foreign fighters you are aware of in the region. next-to-last estimate is about 3500 to 400 non afghan fighters among the taliban forces. i would say about 15,000 to 20,000 mediocre taliban. some are really hard core taliban, very few in my opinion. others are profiteers of war, and at the group's two are turning -- unhappy groups who are turning to weapons. the whole thing is estimated to be around 15,000 to 20,000. in upcoming weeks, you will see the numbers swell, because they will probably try to recruit more people to disrupt the election. therefore you will see an upsurge in violence and more in security in the vulnerable parts of the country. we are already seeing those signs. but if you went to -- it is a shrinking thing in the wintertime. they just a hibernate. when that snow melts, the comeback. >> if you could please identify yourself, and turn on the mike. >> at the beginning of your discussion, you talked about the personality being the driver of people themselves. what does it take to put the systems in place that will ensure that the people are the drivers? >> a very important question, actually. it has been eight years that i have been talking to some colleagues in the international community. on one hand, billions of dollars are being spent on many things. the most obvious thing where there is a huge imbalance in the country is political activities in the country. we have student groups, we have islamic parties, we have the regional players who are pumping money into political organizations and media organizations. but the international community has not been able to listen to the voice of those who want to create a pluralistic, national political organizations and parties. the only way you can create a nation that believes in systems is to create the core of the system which is political organizations that are beyond regions, beyond linguistic divide, and alliant -- beyond religious divides. afghanistan has consisted of so many regions and so many sections and tribes. the only uniting ingredient for the future of that country in order to really make it that nation that sustains itself politically is to create and allow political parties to grow and balance the imbalance that exists now. we need to change the system to a parliamentary system. let's assume today that we changed that system to a parliamentary system in afghanistan. who would be winning the most of the seats in that parliament? the islamic groups, the extremist groups, the political mafia and the drug mafia and the cartels that are in power in the country. what would happen again? the majority of the people would not have a voice in that parliament, and the political turmoil in years to come. >> it has been said that political forecasting has made astrology look respectable, but i would be curious to what you see the political forecasting in elections occurring in september. where you see things going? >> if we leave things the way they are today, i think we will have a worse parliament and had. -- then we have had. we will have more extremist elements in the parliament. we will have the influence of some of the banks that are fronts for money in that region. we will have more people aligned with drug lords and fringes, not the mainstream society. it will be a parliament that is controlled by probably one or two people, and that does not bode well for that picture of a stable afghanistan or and afghanistan that can be a good ally to the west. some of the countries in that region are waiting to fill these voids and vacuums. this would be the opportune time for them to fill up those seats, and they are doing it. they are spending money. they have had along time to establish intelligence networks and they are alive and well and very active. >> president karzai has made a point that he is at least open to the notion of reiterating the were modern elements of the taliban into the new system. can that work, or can that strategy be viable while at the same time we are experiencing the systems building that you have been describing, and at the same time also pursuing the more extreme elements on the battlefield as other options? >> it would be very 92 say that we repeat it would be very naive to say we can eliminate those two can identify with the taliban. in many ways is a troubled country. most pashtun areas that are insecure or have lacking security, are not taliban. because of the geography where they go to their sanctuaries, to pakistan and iran, their training camps, naturally that area has become the most sensitive area. we have taliban who belong to the northern parts of the country, but nobody talks about that. the international community has to realize one thing. it is the act but dan -- is the afghan government's job to create room for all political persuasions. one mistake was made, which was probably by default, that the northern lowlands avail itself to the u.s. forces, and when the u.s. came to afghanistan, they saw everything through the northern alliance lens. that created the recipe for disaster is we are experiencing now. we sell everything for their lens, through their interpretation and their support system that existed. that triggered a political imbalance in the country, and that was one factor for many afghans defecting or at least going to the sidelines and becoming indifferent about the process. otherwise, to be -- and recognize that in time and given them a sense of ownership in the process and the new government, i don't think we would see what we have seen today. i think we have to create room very carefully and very cleverly and maneuver a process where those who are identifying with the taliban and who are not taliban can come back with greater legitimacy in the government' where the ranks of the taliban will shrink back to where they were in 2001. >> what would be the litmus test for reconciliation, and how would that be overseen over time? what could you see some of the principles being? >> this would be processed. first of all, there has to be a process of confidence-building between those who want to talk with the afghan government and those of us who were credible afghan politicians who can become involved in the process. we have to take the lead and create a confidence-building process. that process will require certain bold moves by both sides, i taliban and by the afghan government and also by our international allies. it is hard to list all of those things, but there is an array of things that one can do from our side. you have to realize that they cannot continue fighting for ever, nor will they talk to a week afghan government. we have to talk to them from a position of strength and from the moral high ground. we have to regain that moral high ground first. >> let's turn to one of the other big questions i think people are grappling with, and that is looking at regional solutions. you have some the countries in the neighborhood. i would be curious whether or not it can even be done without regional approaches. i am thinking specifically of india, and obviously that iran question. i would be curious what your thoughts are on that. >> it is probably one of the most essential elements of brin first of all, it has to change. i was in india about a month ago. i was talking to the center for strategic studies and we were talking about several issues that were issues between pakistan and india. the core issue was kashmir. this has to change. we're not in the 50's or '60's or even the 70's. united cooperation in the region needs a fast and speedy economic growth and pakistan is falling behind rapidly. dangerous for pakistan and an enticement for pakistan to recognize and make up and take advantage of the regional economic growth. i think we have to create an opportunity where there is a level playing field. pakistan has to prove that it is a country, it is a nation, illegitimate legitimately. we have the right to be there. we do not have to apologize to pakistan or india or iran to choose our allies. the afghan government should not be apologetic to the rest of the world for being allies of the u.s. they are good allies and it is necessary and good for both countries. has pakistan asked us who they should be allies with? has p[unintelligible] why should we apologize to the rest of the world for being allies with the west? we have experienced alliances with the soviet union, we have been neighbors with pakistan and iran and we had that experience. the united states is not going to back afghanistan and take it away. -- bag afghanistan and taken away. -- take it away. it is logical for our government to make a decision and explain it to the people of the world, we do not need to apologize for being somebo make. they should speak courageously in front of the world that this is our right. and then that right after recognition of that right, a level playing field, pakistan, iran should recognize we exist and we will build a relationship based on cooperation and mutual respect. use the other one. we have alternatives. >> [inaudible] >my question goes along the line [inaudible] the work we have reported, the gao has reported [inaudible] in spite of the donor nations. give the variety of things the strategy is seeking to achieve, how to prioritize what needs to be done and how to you address the shortfall going forward? there is an economic global crisis that impacts the donor nations contributions. what should be done going forward? >> when the afghan national strategy was being prepared and it came to me, to the parliament and when i looked at it, there were so many priorities. we'll have to many priorities, there is no priority, in -- when you have too many priorities, there is no priority. it was a nice wish list, a dream list and some were achievable. some are not practical. when you draft a plan of that sort, you have to base it on reality and capabilities you have and the achievements and capacities you have built. otherwise, we all want to build 15 highways in five years and we have -- what factories and our agriculture production. is it practical? it was not a practical wis. we have to revisit the needs. -- it was not a practical list. and the realistic capabilities and recalculate those things and create a new calculation based on new calculations. i will give you an example. 85% of people's livelihood depends on agriculture in that country. yet in that seven years from 2002 to 2009, only $247 million was allocated to agriculture, which was an obvious disastrous performance. we should have paid more attention to agriculture from the beginning. that would have given us the impetus and also the necessary decision making to pay attention to irrigation, to roads, to other things and go to exports. that would have prepared an economic -- propelled and economic growth but we did not pay attention. we raise the subject during the introduction and we are revisiting the whole thing and paying attention to agriculture. the $18 billion shortfall is inaccurate. it is a number that they are projecting. nothing is realistic in that number. i think if you look at the a.n.d.s, you might have to come up with more realistic numbers. none -- we have not paid attention to the potentials. in terms of agriculture, energy, in terms of mining, tourism is a long shot because of security. that is also potential. >> please identify yourself. >> i have two questions for you. >> make sure they are easy. >> sure. everyone i speak with [inaudible] everyone feels they are better managers than the government. it is a failed government and it has to be rebuilt. how would your bill that? on the ethnic divide, you have the national security structure. when you have two pashtun policeman [inaudible] something is wrong. where is the money going to come from when we leave? it is not sustainable. >> true. this takes us back to their original point it was making. -- i was making. the best security and nation can have is through the suspicion of its citizens. you cannot secure through military and police alone. the united states is a major example. community involvement and participation, empowering people, giving them the ingredients with which they can feel good about the process. they are part of that process and in the process, they feel a sense of ownership. we have not done that in afghanistan. the afghan government feels that the afghan people should be privileged they are governing or rolling them. even in the private sector, if you go to restaurants, the waiter comes to you, you should be happy he comes and talks to you. in the u.s., it is the opposite. he or she comes to you and they want to serve you. culture, we need to create this culture in that country in terms of civic responsibility. 30 years of war has ruined the nation in many ways. no one has the courage to talk about that. no one has the courage to take the leadership and reinvigorate the sense of responsibility the nation should have. people of a nation should have. not only in daily life but also in terms of security. in order to create a good army, where do you regret that army from? from the people. if people do not have a culture, how do you turn regional individuals -- to think about the religious devices into a3 you have to instill a national culture and i can only happen if you have a leadership -- that can only happen if you have a leadership that inspires people towards that end and we have not had that yet. everything in afghanistan from then until now has been created based on allegations. we have to give this group that many seats. you cannot create a government that way. everything should be based on professionalism, performance, dedication, and credibility. that we have been lacking in that, in my opinion. the same goes with the national army and national police. 500,000, the total number of national army and national police is projected. afghanistan not only now but with our resources, it will be difficult to sustain that sort of military and security force. civic revival and responsibility, the sense of duty and the government should initiate those things. people cannot do those things. afghans are the poorest people on earth. yet, we are running the risk of turning that country, the culture that is coming to have its grips on that country is a culture of entitlement, a culture of handouts, a culture of drugs and war. we have to change that. >> i agree with you that one of the main points is parliamentary or reelection. one of the key points. you will need more nato forces or military forces in ablorder o secure the elections? >> definitely. the short answer is yes, definitely. also, if nato does not participate in carrying its own burden in this alliance, nato is running the risk of putting all the burden on the united states and the united states will suffer from fatigue, if nothing else. public opinion in this country, the fatigue factor on the military and also the meeting of alliance will become a rhetorical thing. what is an alliance? nationally, nato members from britain all the way to the new members from eastern europe have some participation in the afghan operation. this participation in many ways, the u.s. is carrying 99% of the burden almost. we have soldiers from some countries, two soldiers. i am not saying they should bring troops either. the distribution of responsibility in nato is not there and it does not send a good signal. even to those who want to exploit in the region, they see it as a disarray. at least, a lack of coordination between nato members. parliamentary elections or not, the participation of nato in afghanistan has to be balanced. and parliamentary election can be a good test. those european countries to talk about democracy, those european countries to talk about non- military solutions for the problem of afghanistan, that is the time for them to secure our good election so we can go to the non-military solutions in the future. >> i'm glad you brought that up. that is a significant set of issues. if you read -- the temp check is not always good vis-a-vis the local opinions in europe. it is more of the countries that are enthusiastic. how're you getting that message across? how are other afghan leaders getting that across to some of the leaders, not only in nato but the european union at large? i would like to build on one of the other questions. the question i have, can afghanistan transformed to where you would like to see it be with karzai at the helm? >> i think -- i would be very straightforward with this answer. we have to create an opportunity for afghanistan, for the people that personalities do not matter. democratic systems should not depend on one or two or three individuals. they should come and have their chance and play their role and if they succeed within the confines of the role of law and what ever the constitution's this country -- those countries have, they can do their thing and move on. we cannot allow afghanistan to become a new dynasty of brothers and sisters and cousins and warlords and druglords. the u.s. and european countries have this opportunity in the islamic world and impoverished countries. afghanistan is the manageable project. a large majority of that population can say ok, this new world experiences working. the rule of law, people's participation in governance, civic responsibility, systems work, not individuals. karzai or no, karzai, we should create a system where others can comment produce -- the last question i asked in india is is there an alternative for mr. karzai? it is insulting question to ask the nation of 30 million people. who was mr. karzai nine years ago? if anything, these eight or nine years have produced opportunities that others have grown into credible political positions that can create systems that can sustain and last beyond personalities. >> on the need to question. with other countries have made a commitment. >> there are two or three things that were going on three years ago. people should not misinterpret that. the media is talking about u.s. withdrawal in 2011. it is -- we have to be careful how we phrase that. it is not a u.s. withdrawal. it is the beginning of probably a long process and yet australia, canada, and holland have had a schedule of withdrawal long before that. in 2005 or 2006, they announced the schedule. one of them was leaving the end of this year and one is living next year and two of them are leaving next year -- one is leaving next year and two of them are living next year. there is no relation between that and what mr. obama announced a few months ago. >> any other questions here? please. >> [inaudible] i am curious about after the copper mine scandal of sorts, what is being put in place to ensure that the bidding rights will be transparent? >> this is a very important test for afghanistan and for the international community and those countries who, in the name of investment, and exploite the opportunity and lewd and pollute. if you go to africa, this has happened. transparent process requires good laws. and good operators at the helm. the ministry of mines in afghanistan, about four or five years ago, would have started a process of procurement for this copper mine. that process has been questioned. there are many questions about that process. the mineral rights -- other than copper, there are other minerals in that mine. there are subcontracts. in order to produce energy, there are contracts for coal and that is in question, in my opinion. the amount of coal that is being extracted to produce energy for them in -- that mine is twice as much as is needed for the production of energy. the rest of that energy sold in the market. that in itself is something that has to be questioned and revisited. our donor nations would -- were participating in bankrolling security and development also have the burden to come with us and join us in creating a process with which we have a transparent procurement system in place. we're not only companies bid but also we have had an experience three or four months ago. the company from the region had been on oil -- bid on oil explorations. they locked the project and won the bid and did not perform for six months. it was discovered they had no ability to perform. it is possible that some countries with lots of cash reserves can come and block mines without exploring it. -- lock mines without exploring it. we have to prevent that. >> how many years are we looking at to be able to benefit? >> it depends on the type of mines. i have looked into this a little more in-depth. for yourself bonds and computers and batteries and everything. you should buy lithium stocks. depending on the type of mines, some lines are easily extracted -- mines are easily extracted and process. some take time because of the infrastructure it requires. one of the requirements would be roads to some of those regions that the mining can occur. the other one would be energy and we have been sitting on our hands in terms of production of energy for eight years. we have -- i was talking to some people. we have electricity, water, we have wind, the son, coal, oil, gas, -- the sun, coal, oil, gas, and uranium. i do not think that should be acceptable. we should have produced electricity by now. we have -- because of pakistan and iran we do not want to touch it. this is something we should talk about. electricity that is needed in the country. people are reporting that quality oil from uzbekistan that are poisonous. people have lost their lives because of the chemicals used. it will depend on the type of minds. anywhere from three years to five years is the window. >> you touched on this a minute ago. general petraeus was asked a number of tough questions on afghanistan, particularly in hearings this week. specifically, what if and when the u.s. leaves? let's look in brass tacks. if the u.s. were to leave, what does that mean for the future of afghanistan? >> if we hear an announcement tomorrow that the u.s.'s leading -- is leaving in 2011, the type of announcement can create a rapid erosion of confidence. psychological effects usually set the tone for further advance. we have seen these things in other parts of the world. premature announcements, politicking with war, wars have to fought or we should not choose to go to war. in my opinion. pakistan's war is not over. if it is over, why are we there? if we have not finished the work, should we finish it or not? this is an obvious thing. if the war is not finished and if the u.s. leaves tomorrow, in three hours, the afghan government will collapse. very obvious. secondly, can the world afford another boy in afghanistan, especially now that things have changed? the world is not the same as the world of 2001 or 2000. this world is much different. the extremists are more bold. there boulder. look at the suicide attempt, the suicide bombers. -- they are bolder. compare the economic competition. can the world and the u.s. afford to leave afghanistan? the american people, while there are economic problems, i totally understand it. the taxpayers' generosity is not just to help the country like afghanistan. your lifestyle is at stake if the world becomes more and save. europeans and americans will not enjoy their life style. look at how you travel today. compared to 15 years ago. how much time do you spend at the airports? how many pairs of shoes are tested so it will not -- even now, you have to take them off. you can use your imagination and extend this and project it. if the world becomes further destabilize. do you think this kind of lifestyle will be sustainable? i do not think so. >> do we have anymore questions? up front first. >> icould you comment on two items. education and health. what international groups are involved in helping? what is the status of education of girls? >> as the father of four daughters, i like that question. >> education, i am sure that you have some sort of time with india. you know when india made the decision in 1947 to spend time and efforts and invest in education, 30 years later, they started reaping the benefits. it is education that is propelling the indian economic expansion today. there is no doubt that education will play a very important role in the life of the people in afghanistan and the region. not enough attention has been paid to education. men or women. education should be gender blind. if you do not have been educated mother, she will never be able to raise an educated son or daughter. education for women is more important than men. we have to start somewhere. in a country left at that -- like afghanistan, we have to pay attention to man's education so they can except education for women as well. the health-care industry -- the mortality rate for women, pregnant women, women giving birth is the highest in the world. every three hours, there is a mother dying in childbirth. that should not be acceptable in the 21st century. it is almost criminal to allow that to happen for a mother. >> what can the international community do to sobor you? >> one of the things that can help oversight in afghanistan is, the donor countries should hold themselves and the afghan government responsible. the oversight should began with self-policing of the donor countries and holding the afghan government responsible. we have a court in the country waiting to bring people to justice and one telephone call from this fellow or that fellow can derail the process. the parliament should play a very important role in the oversight process. before coming to the united states, i was working on a draft to change the rules and procedures, to create an oversight committee in parliament. we do not have that. india has it, the indian parliament. i cannot remember the name. it is accounts and oversight committee. their job is to oversee all accounts and all performances by government or non-government organizations. the parliament should play a role. the international organizations and there are some international ngos that need to be made examples. the government should realize it is not just them but the internatiooal community is serious about fixing its own problems also. >> a question over here. >> here in the u.s., overlooking at to afghanistan through a national lands in terms of the lack of leadership from the national government? should we look at success stories that are occurring on a local and provincial level and trying to emphasize we're leadership is being provided by afghans at those levels, and how can we do that? >> we sometimes talk about negative thing so much that we forget there're achievements. the country has achievements. not everyone is correct in that country. not everyone is a crook. just the fact that people are looking for justice and government and rule of law, it speaks volumes that people want to fix these problems. these problems are in the larger perspective, they are an anomaly for our nation. i think we have judges, we have district governors, we have a few governors, maybe a few ministers, a few parliamentarians, a few private sector and entrepreneurs and businessmen who are honest people. in a country where the rule of law is not -- does not have the right grip, those who do not obey the law can pollute everything quicker than those who obey the law. the punishment and reward system should be created in such a way that while we bring people to justice, we should reward those who are obeying the law and promoting harmony and the role of law and the country. >> one last question. this is one that perhaps may be difficult to answer. i would be curious whether or not you see the commitment in your neighbor, in pakistan, to address and not only vis-a-vis the fata region. what sorts of relationships pakistan and afghanistan have looked to try to build in a bilateral way to address from u.s. interest perspectives, al qaeda. >> the u.s. is a good ally. the united states government should be able to talk to the pakistani government and talk them out of this perception of paranoia. they live in paranoia. they think everyone is out to get them. >> [inaudible] >> afghanistan is not out to get pakistan. it is not the other way around. in practice. definitely, the indian-pakistan relation is something that has to be discussed. pakistan's performance should not be based on its relation with india. india's relationship with pakistan, they should create a separate track. they could start cooperating in the fata region. that cooperation could become a foundation for regional cooperation. before we do that, pakistan has to pass through some litmus tests. the u.s. is spending billions of dollars in pakistan. pakistan has received = if not more money in the past 10 years from -- equal or not more money in the past 10 years. pakistan should become more sincere about its performance. pakistan should become one pakistan. not the pakistan of the military and non-military. one pakistan under the rule of law, under a civilian rule of law and democratic values. the same thing in afghanistan. we could achieve much more that way in a transparent fashion. >> before we say thank you, this was a tour de force. your pension is contagious. you've covered so much territory. -- your passion is contagious. let me leave you with the token of our appreciation. a coin with a quote, "see truth and pursue it steadily." i hope you puseek truth and pursue it steadily. [applause] >> i don't want to change the mood. i want to thank everyone and thank the people of the united states for their generosity and sacrifices. the job is not done. it does not mean that we have not achieved a lot. i think we will achieve more if we persevere and continue and not give up. thank you very much. [applause] >> up next, a discussion on campaign finance legislation, and in the usaid the minister talks about haiti relief and following that, a senate confirmation hearing for deputy attorney general. in general david pretorius testified before the senate armed services committee and continued to support the president's plan to withdraw troops. we will show you his testimony tomorrow starting at 12:20 p.m. eastern here on c-span. it is campaign 2010 your way, with the c-span of video library did we make the easy to follow the primary season from the campaign trail to the debates to the victory and concession speeches, all free and on line, any time. >> a look now at the campaign finance bill being worked on by congress. this is about 40 minutes. doing to clean up the spill and fight the oil spill. >> "washington journal" continues. host: on your screen is john bresnahan, a senior congressional reporter with "politico.com" newspaper. -- "politico