Historical dimension has gone short shrift ever since the awful of vents of the holodomor in the early 1930s. We have a wonderful panel for you today. I do not think i need to name all of them. Bios of here on the each, people well prepared to discuss this very serious topic. More things. Ay two one, this event is timed in part to something very unusual, a fulllength regular movie, bitter harvest, coming to you later this week. You may have seen it advertised over the weekend. It is well worth seeing. It keeps your attention on a very difficult subject. It is not a documentary. It is a fulllength feature film which seems to be the way to catch peoples attention in this postmodern age. I did not need to be reminded, you can follow us at fu rtureukraine. I will introduce Timothy Fairbank who will be moderating. Tim . Sorry i knew i would make a mistake. [video clip] there have been always those who are trying to take our free freedom. Ukraine must be talked about. [indiscernible] i must fight for my country. [indiscernible] if i can save one life, that his enough for me. We must continue. [indiscernible] [indiscernible] mr. Fairbank evening, everyone. Thank you for joining us. Today. A great panel i cannot think of a better group to discuss this today. Before we begin with questions i will moderate, introduce the full panel. Herbst, thejohn director of the Eurasia Center at the Atlantic Council, the former u. S. Ambassador to ukraine. Ia mcconnell. Nad phtali left of her is na rivkin. Sawkast, we have michael iw. Is the chair of the committee. Very little is known to the outside world and even in Eastern Europe of the events of holodomor. Can you talk about this lack of information and understanding, specifically what many would describe as the soviet Disinformation Campaign during the 1932 and 1933. Great, absolutely. I would like to thank the Atlantic Council for hosting this event. It is not every day we get a group together such as this of experts and audience participants that can talk about the holodomor. It is one of the least known atrocities in the world. Ukrainianamerican Community Call it genocide, and even the person who terms the termed the term as ande used holodomor example of what genocide is. I look at the perspective of what happened 85 years ago in ukraine and what is happening right now. The two are parallel, but looking at it, they are quite similar as well. I would like to begin with quotes. Quote from a french writer, an aristocrat, who in the mid1800s had an opportunity to travel to russia, met the ars, noblemen, and he went into the countryside. In his book, letters from russia, the writer quotes a russian Civil Servant proudly proclaiming the following russia lies, denies the facts, makes war on the evidence, and wins. That i think is the perspective of what we are doing with dealing with right now. Whether it is this book, letters from russia, written 175 years ago, the holodomor, and the incidents that are happening now in Eastern Ukraine russiamea shows that lies and makes war on the facts. This is not necessarily a historical lesson. What i would like to give you is a philosophical notion of what is happening in that area and what is emanating from moscow. From moscow, it is not such a territorial grab of ukraine. Whether it was during the soviet were time of the 1920s now in the early 2000s, it is and informational war. It is traction as to what you can get out there for the people to believe and at the same time toas much of the unfortunate various societies as possible. ,o it is a matter of principle a matter of democratic principles versus it is a matter of authoritarianism, dictatorship, and how you wield power. Now, it is quite interesting that the soviets denied the holodomor for the longest of times. They denied it until the mid1980s when we in the greater ukrainian the aspera porated speaking dias started speaking more about it. There was traction associated with it. Members of congress, president of the United States issued theres take meds about the holodomor. A culminated in 2008 with a statement by george w. Bush that set the holodomor was a crime against humanity. Denied it forhave so long and only after a lot of the information started trickling out after the dissolution of the soviet union did they acknowledge that the holodomor happened. It is the same thing fast forward 85 years ago, 85 years from the holodomor to what is happening right now in the Eastern Ukraine and crime area crimea. If you remember blaster, when started invading ukraine with little green men it had no notion it was being done in an organized fashion in terms of the illegal annexation of the republic of crimea in ukraine. ,his is the point of the story and what we seek is not so much about how history repeats itself, because it does repeat itself, but how we have to tackle those historical burdens of not being silent. I had a wonderful opportunity to see a premier of the film last week, bitter harvest, of which we saw a short trailer. Vie is poignant, riveting, and it captures your heart and soul because it is a love story in the dire circumstances of a forced famine in ukraine. I picked up one amazing quotation from that particular came from ahe quot4 soviet commissar sayinge reality is the enemy. If reality is the enemy, how do we fight against it . Who is the enemy . Is reality the true enemy, or is it disinformation that is being strewn about by the enemy . This is where i would like to. Eave you i would like to leave you with certain instances that are happening in todays world. Unfortunately, a lot is happening, a lot. I would like to leave you is beg sent in terms of fake news, in terms of facts, how to look at these particular facts. The facts are there, ladies and gentlemen. The facts have always been there, 85 years ago. The facts were there nearly 175 rs ago when the fence french writer and aristocrat travel throughout russia. Effects were there in 1932 and 1933. There were journalists and that it in ukraine that cut out the story. It is unfortunate that a lot of their writing to receive the prominence of one particular times,or the new york who has a Pulitzer Prize within the New York Times building. These are the attributes of what we have to do deal in todays world. That in todays world, since we know a lot of the facts, we know a lot of the information that has already strewn about. It is our opportunity now to make sure that does not repeat itself. It is not about the history. History is necessary. Ands about the perception, the perception that is being made unfortunately from russia, whether it was the czars russia, the soviet union, or Russian Federation, it is that perception of what is reality. And in the movie, if reality is the enemy, then that is what we have to deal with. But how do you combat that . How do you combat this disinformation that is happening . There are many ways. First and foremost, the example in july 2014, the facts are out there. More can be done. More investigations, more trials have to be brought. Other instances in terms of combating the disinformation is the movie itself. The movie itself combats all types of disinformation stemming from moscow. Memorial, the provocation in washington on the corner of massachusetts avenue and north capitol street. It is important to have these types of instances. Churchill within High School Social studies programs. Speaking, if i did not raise the issues of the holodomor, i do not think much would have been set. I have not i even have an example in my College Courses russian history, from the mid1800s to the mid1900s, going from does are going from the soviet union and talking abouts lenin and fiveyear plan, where collectivization was mentioned, not in the capacity of what it meant with the starving of nearly 10 Million People in ukraine. As is what we need to do. We need to bring forth the facts, make sure that this is evidence, and as i mentioned earlier, one of the greatest examples of holodomor in terms ebunking of information from the Russian Federation is recognizing it as true genocide. I leave you with one particular quote as well, and this is a quote from desmond tutu. This is a quote about what should inspire us to work in the future and to debunk a lot of this misinformation and propaganda. It is a quote as follows if you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor. And i think those are poignant words that we need to remember as we examined a little bit more in this panelor discussion, and if you have a unique opportunity of watching the film bitter harvest. Mr. Fairbank following up, you have done a lot of research about how reporters and politicians misrepresented events in the early 1930s. Can you talk about this more and how this misrepresentation of past events,ected but also what is going on currently in ukraine, and how that affects the culture of the society . Mr. Rivkin sure. Thank you, tim, and michael. To get ae worst date cold. I do not know how it will sound. I wanted to pick up on something michael just said about high school curricula, and it is important to note that the way we talk about history, the words and we use here in ukraine in russia have an impact on younger generations. I was sifting through some Russian High School textbooks. I found an example of how russian children are taught about basic history, like the famine in ukraine in 1932, 1933. This is a quote from a textbook in russia published in 2008. It says, the famine was the result of weather conditions as well as the incompleteness of collectivization processes, collective farms not able to provide the required level of production of bread while the wealthy farmers were liquidated as a social class and did not purchase of a in the production. Just to substantiate you point, that is the , and it has a way we impact our children here and in russia, and i wanted to pick up on something you mentioned about Walter Duranty. How many people of you know who he is . For those of you who do not, he was the New York Times correspondent from 1917 until 1934 and in 19 34, 1935, and he stayed on the reported. A pulitzert covering the holodomor in ukraine. For those of you who think he does not deserve the pulitzer, you may change your nine because he may deserve a pulitzer for the orwellian linguistic gymnastics in his article. There is no actual starvation, but theres widespread mortality from diseases due to malnutrition. [laughter] duranty is an easy target, and we could as many do dismiss him as a liar. But duranty was not an outlier at the time. Famous people, intelligent like George Bernard shaw, hg wells, french Prime Minister, fooled byull by the Russian Propaganda Campaign during the holodomor. Author ofr kessler, one of the best books on communism ever written, dieneunately dismissed ukrainians as enemies of the people who preferred baking to work. Workg. N to why the lies . Who do these people think they are fooling . George orwell holds the key to the minds that can believe freedom is slavery and ignorance is strength. It was, orwell wrote considered equally proper to publicize famines when they had them in india and conceal them when they happened in the ukraine. War,is was true before the the intellectual atmosphere is certainly no better now. 2017. K now it extends to orwell gets to the heart of the matter. It is not that the holodomor fools, were fulls, although many of them were fool ed by the russian Disinformation Campaign. It is that it is fashionable in this long 20th century of ukrainian history holodomor from the to the war in donbas to equivalence between common tragedies of the human condition and the deliberate, as the medicament and malicious aggression of the russian regime. I want to share a quote from another journalist, a good guy this time. Derek jones, a journalist who broke the story of the holodomor. Interviewed a soviet foreign minister in that interview, the minister took a line that weve heard from many Foreign Ministers since. He said, flat out, there is no famine, which is a blatant lie, but then he tailored and amended his statement. He said you must take a longer view. The present hunger is temporary. In writing books, you must have a longer view. It would be difficult to describe it as hunger. Notice the sentence construction. There are no active firms verbs. Hunger and famine occur over the world all the time, in india like orwell sell, and he was trying to say that the famine in ukraine just occurred without cause or effect, necessarily. Orilarly, with the past week so, officials have been asking ukraine to reconsider its economic sanctions on donbas and stop the attack on donbas, as if the conflict simply occurred in a vacuum. The russian regime and many people who do not know better talk about the holodomor as one famine amongst many in a year that killed millions of people. Similarly, the russian regime and others who do not know as ar talk about donbas semi frozen conflict that seems to be symptomatic of 2070. Nobody is at fault, nobody is getting hurt. That is just the way the world is these days. They want us to think. It is the socalled long view that the soviet foreign minister wanted us to take. Mr. Fairbank thank you. Aiddia, we feel there is struggle for the truth. And you talk about why this is an are there similarities between the 1930s and today . Ms. Mcconnell well, definitely. I would like to divide my remarks into two parts. Looking back what happened then and looking at various issues regarding ukraine, be it turned be it chernobyl there are parallels that are so striking. Let me talk about the parallels in the United States. Firsthael said, the emission of the famine occurred in the mid 1980s. We began to commemorate the 50th. Nniversary of the famine first there were resolutions to commemorate the famine and then there was the resolution to have the commission. The United States was the first government in the world to officially recognize that the famine, the holodomor, took place. Several of us oldtimers had a little group. We called ourselves the ukraine caucus, and our headquarters le. E in the monocol one person was detailed to senator hollings, so guess who sponsored the resolution on the famine in the senate. It would senator hollings. So that was the beginning of officiallygn to recognize him and there were some interesting things that happened. We try to get a hearing on the senate side, and senator lugar did not want to do it. So we went to see senator jesse helms. Will remembers him as being quite the rebel, you would say, and he was chair of the agriculture committee. So he claimed he had jurisdiction over this topic because holodomor the holodomor had to do with collectivization and in agriculture. So this was an interesting little thing. So this was the beginning of andsing for recognition, besides thanking the Atlantic Council for organizing this event, i wanted to thank the people put together this film because i think this film represents a milestone in the world recognizing this event. When you have an event like this now being introduced into the popular culture, be it film or books, i think this is another step toward more widely people recognizing it and accepting the historical facts of this. When we were doing this resolution, we thought we were uncovering the world for the congress. This year we are actually celebrating 100 years of congress in the people of ukraine. One of the things we discovered is in 1934 a person from new york introduced a resolution in regards to the famine. Knew, world knew, people and even in Washington People knew. Now, we had the pleasure of interviewing him. He was already in his mid90s, and he ranted and raved about because atoosevelt that time that was the time when we in the United States wanted to recognize russia. Way ofolitics got in the the congress being able to officially recognize what was taking place. Today . So actually if we look at the history, congress had been always in the forefront on these kinds of issues in relation to your crane two ukraine. Throughout history there have been Different Reasons why president s may not have wanted to support or endorse certain positions. So it seems like history continues. Now, it has already been somewhat discussed about the disinformation. I am going to call it the kremlin playbook, which is now. Stent from then until the only thing that changes are the masses because of advances in technology and resources. Into what people have already said, first it is that the night and cover up, whether it was the holodomor, chernobyl, you name it, that is the first step. Then you have the propaganda the narrative that provides the substitute for the truth. And then we have fake news, and the biggest example of that was Walter Duranty. I think this is an interesting his role thatut he played. It was much more than just writing article to cover up is going on. He was an integral part of. Romoting the soviet position looking up Walter Duranty, there was an interesting quote, and everybody is quoting. In november of 1933, after there had been some sensitive negotiations about the recognition of russia, there was a dinner at the waldorf astoria hosted by the soviet foreign minister. And one of the participants who wrote about that said during the dinner, as people were being introduced, there was mild applause. When Walter Duranty was introduced, it was thunderous applause. And this is the quote one quite got the impression that america in a spasm of discernment was recognizing both russia and Walter Duranty. Now, the other part of the playbook is to identify people d statusre and recognize who are either paid experts or, as stalin to find them, useful idiots. And sometimes it is hard to figure out in which category people fit. I went to the ukrainian weekly archives for 1983, and i pulled out an article, not about the holodomor, but actually about reverend graham attending a peace conference in moscow in 1983. Out,eason i pulled it because, can you think of another person who is so respected, an American Icon am a then reverend graham . Spiritual advisor to many president s. Respected by people of all faiths. Anybody think there is who would attack reverend graham. So when he goes to moscow and anybody who wouldsays he sees no signs f religious persecution, despite the fact that he visited with six pentecostal believers from siberia had been living in the , he embassy for five years then went on to say things like, he went to several orthodox churches and they were packed. Something you would not see in charlotte, north carolina, his home. And the final one which was really hard to read, when talking about food shortages, he said, i had wonderful meals. Caviar. In america, only the very rich can afford caviar. I am not trying to pick on reverend graham. But when you have someone of his stature who for whatever reason is promoting a certain life now, this was a prelude to 1988 when we were commemorating the millennium of christianity. I was the chair of the Government Relations for that, and it was political guerrilla warfare is the kremlin was as theto seize it millennium of christianity in russia. Challenging to maneuver through today in terms of different people, and i am not going to name names, who are in this category. The final step is to vilify and attack those who speak the truth. And it has been already brought welshrrett jones was a journalist who bravely was. Ndercover in ukraine he spoke the language. And he held a press conference in 1933 talking about the famine. He was denounced, attacked, and just two years later he was murdered under suspicious circumstances. Not thinknately, i do we see much changes in the situation, both in the playbook of the kremlin or maybe sometimes in terms of politics here in washington. Mr. Fairbank thank you. Broadif i may ask a question, why is the film important today to understand the events of 1932, 1933 . There are herbst several main points in answer to your totally unscripted question. One, it is important to understand that the horrors of the communist regime were worldclass horrors, among the worst things in human experience. And the people realize under were all thee peoples of the soviet union, not to mention the people of china, cambodia, g a, and so on. I mentioned that because right now we are talking about one specific, perhaps the most terrific of all the communist crimes you could say what happened in china in the cultural revolution, famine in or in cambodia1 after the communist give the car power nt two putins russia and this is of we have been talking about this nel again is a serious political problem and also a serious human right problem but not as serious as the soviet union. 3. Three. T in that time a possible russian democracy that followed the fall of the implosion of the soviet union, there was real interest in russia and the horrors of communism. The kgb archives were opened. Serious research was done. And we are grateful for the findings of that research. A civicalso had organization in russian that appear in the 1980s, in the last days of the soviet union, run by the eminent acumen academician, who was interested in demoralizing the sufferings under communism. Brieffour, sadly, this russian for tatian with democracy ended when you had to hand off from president yeltsin to then Prime Minister putin, who became president putin. And mr. Putin was and is a kgb agent. He says you never leave the service, except with extreme prejudice, of course. And putin famously said the great geopolitical strategy of the 20th century was not holocaust, not the holodomor, but the fall of the soviet union, which of course is a great misjudgment in world terms. And mr. Putin represented the kgb, theo ran the ministry of defense, and veriest others, the ministry of interior, the power ministries have the soviet union. And his becoming president meant the returning of this type of socket psychological type to power in russia. And that psychological type greatly enjoyed the geopolitical preeminence of the soviet union, and to this day they feel for preeminence the person whose life is indicated feels their vanished leg is amputated feels their vanished leg. Surprise therefore,. 5, that under this regime point formerhat this regime of kgb and kgb types, there is no interest in looking at the horrors of communism. In fact, the ideological debt to the extent that putin is an to the extent that putin is and ist, his point is to create a fusion of czars greatness and the soviet grayness, which is a point of navigation as they look to the future. And that legacy concludes the aspect discussed by my fellow panelists. Nt si what is the importance of thex, holodomor . It is important for the Ukrainian National consciousness, for the people of ukraine to understand what was done to them as a hard of also to quash Ukrainian National feeling at a critical moment in soviet history. Understand ukraine as an independent country. Ands putin aggression in ukraine has solidified ukrainian consciousness, the holodomor was a preconscious recognition of the same time. Reason two, it is a wedge for understanding more broadly the horrors of communism, not just in ukraine, but also in russia, china, and so on. In that respect, this film bitter harvest could wind up being a in important cultural event. That is my hope if it leads to a serious conversation of things that happened in the soviet union. Im surprised, im delighted to be the free safety on this panel, because im surprised that no one mentioned the actual extent of the horrors of the holodomor. If you look at the various writings on it, the number of fatalities ranges from a low of 3 million to a high of even 11 million. A very large number. A very large number. Andlly, the holodomor recognition of the extent of the horrors, the recognition of who was responsible and who was responsible is very much the politburo of the soviet union, is an important geopolitical fact today, and that geopolitical fact of prime importance to the kremlin for two reasons. Reason 1 that a trueand recognition of this horror makes it hard for them to ignore the problems of communism. How can they speak positively about this past of theirs is everyone understands that as 10lly or in as many Million People were start to death as conscious policy. Therefore, they have attacked ukraines commemoration of the holodomor as an example of extreme Ukrainian Nationalism phobic tendencies, which is nonsense. That this dangerration is also a to putins authoritarian project in russia, because again, the that the same regime that murdered that does not this regime want to acknowledge the horrors on the absolutely extraordinary scale of the communist period. And that is openly this exhibits about talking about the holodomor and this film. I think that is enough. Mr. Fairbank thank you for your remarks. We have less than 15 minutes left, so i would ask one more round of questions and if you can keep your remarks to two minutes or three minutes before we open it up to the audience, michael, i can go back to you. You touched on this a little bit, but looking at the present day, looking at that hownformation campaign, does that affect events in ukraine, and i am talking about illegal annexation of crimea area crimea and the war on donbas . Great question. I think john addressed it a little bit, and frankly speaking it is a narrative, nothing that is coming out of the kremlin in terms of this fake news, in terms of a narrative, and how the world is supposed to believe this narrative. But obviously, it is a matter of the selfconsciousness of the ukrainians, and it is harboring now ideas that we as ukrainians need to stand up by ourselves, because the world is not the same as it was 85 years ago. There are different tactics being used in terms of disinformation. Enough to newpen technologies in terms of social media and so forth that we can actually know some of the truths happening now in ukraine. And with that, if he five years ago, unfortunately, other than a few journalists, but how do you combat that . There are so many methodologies presentcombat todays crisis in ukraine. Obviously in terms of the little present crisis in ukraine. Obviously in terms of the little green men in crimea, that already we knew as a fact. That was out there. It means what is necessary is something that happened even 85 years ago, although the information was known 85 years ago, it was a matter at times of appeasement, and i will give you a quote as well. Overly i have something hopefully i have something ready. There was a document to pop by the British Foreign service that says the truth is that we have a certain amount of information about famine conditions in ukraine. Do not want to make it public. This is because of the soviet government resenting it, and our relations with them would be prejudiced. So that makes i think the complete cycle and the complete circle here, that it is a matter of appeasement and we do not want to appease. Cannot appease right now. And that is in terms of an answer to your question, it solidifies ukrainians and what they are trying to a college, what they are trying to do, to accomplish, what they are trying to do in europe. Ted democracy. It is Civil Society which makes the difference. Frankly speaking, that is one of the things that stalin wanted to annihilate as much as possible, is that free will and that free thinking from the ukrainians, because he needed their land for his collectivization and his industrialization, and he needed to squelch the population. Today the population will not be squelched, but if there are matters of appeasement on larger Global Political scales, then the ukrainians fear they could be back 85 years ago. Mr. Fairbank thank you. Naphtali, examples of accurate portrayals of what is going on in that part of the world about russian aggression. You talked about textbooks and culture. Can you talk more about that and the memorial that was constructed a couple years ago . Can you talk more about the positive developments . Mr. Rivkin sure. The memorial michael can talk about more than i can. I guess where i want to go with this is that there has definitely been examples of good cultural memory in the post beviet space that can followed. In latvia, one of the things they did after latvia came to became independent, they changed the street names. People ask why are you focusing on street names when people need to adapt to an entire new type of lifestyle and people need to eat . And his response was public symbols matter. Your public references and your cultural sphere matters in the way that you perceive the world and i just information. So that is why the memorial here in d. C. Matters and is a good step in the white right direction. That is why the film matters. Panel iss i hope this seen, i think the film will be seen by a lot more. That is a step in the right direction. In russia, thats that has not been taken. If you walk through the streets in moscow, you see hammers and sickles all over the metro stations, whereas in postsoviet and warsaw pact capitals, the giant monsters statues of stalin had been torn down. They have been toward down but moved to a park in moscow. You can still go and see them. Been changed. Have the way that schoolchildren commemorate their own history is ped. Ologetic, even prep ukraine on this cultural sphere is a country in flux. They had been democratic and may have been working tirelessly since the collapse of the soviet union, but it is not always easy. To tear down want the statue of lenin where they celebrated their 13th birthday 50 years in. It is hard 50 years ago. It is harder to change the small villagers textbooks, but that is where it has to happen. Adia, you make a point of the russian playbook being the same over the decades and generations. Maybe the tools have changed. How might organizations in the International Community combat this . What programs can be done . We raise awareness . Ms. Mcconnell it is constant vigilance. People in the atlantic Conference Council have done a fantastic job putting out incredible information. If i might make some other comments. One of the things i think we have come to understand is the impact of the holodomor on Ukraine Society as such. And i think it is Something Worthy of maybe analysis as well. And i am just going to cite three examples. He was here,r when one time in a speech, he talked about the fear that still remains within ukraine because of the holodomor. Whole when you think about this fear still inculcated in society, it makes that recent striving in society that more remarkable. I am going to give you a couple examples. In 1992, i was in ukraine with a colleague of mine, and we went visit her elderly i had aunt, and we were all euphoric because ukraine is independent. Then she tells me her aunt is squirreling away dry bread. The notion that ukraines independence somehow may threaten them because that is what collectivization was all about there is another documentary film that i would recommend, done by an american woman. It is strangely uplifting, but it is about these women in their 80s and 90s who have gone back rnobyl zone, and a lot has been made of the fact they are living with radiation. Saysn the film one of them they have no fear about the radiation. The thing that they fear is famine, not having enough food to eat. Seeped is i think has into society in ways we have not really i think yet come to understand. And on this point, we can talk about that disinformation by the kremlin. Bring out the fact t the party of president yanukovych was not ready to recognize this horrific event, even though the most harshest of this holodomor was suffered in Eastern Ukraine. I think this is something that was of interest. President wasthe doing a Major Program to recognize the holodomor, there was a lot of criticism. And peoplemania, said he is wasting his time, he should not be focusing on holodomor, there are more important things to focus on. I contradicted him because i happened to be there, and one of the things i observed was people in Eastern Ukraine who had lived through the holodomor and had never spoken about it were finally feeling free to talk about it. So can you imagine the impact of keeping this inside, the fear and the terror, and what that has done to i think creamy and society . Ukrainian society . So what we have seen with ukrainians fighting for democracy is that much more remarkable because they have this remembrance of terror. Mr. Fairbank do you have any other remarks you have . I have a reading assignment for the audience. If you want to know about the holodomor, the book to read is harvest of sorrow. Mac hasauthor, james written about thee, holodomor the holodomor. And people have spoken about useful idiots, people doing their bidding if they do not understand. Book. Ollander, great with that, i am done. You. Airbank thank we would love to open it up for questions from the audience, and if you can identify yourself and give your affiliation. Yes, sir. Thank you so much. My name is david talbot. I work at the victims memorial communism foundation, and i would like to offer it to you as where you see it best answer. One of the things in thinking about the future of ukraine that did not come up in the conversation today is the future of ukraine in the context of the new administration. And i would love to hear thoughts about how people who love ukraine are thinking and strategizing right now for the welfare of their people. Mr. Sawkiw interesting question. I had a feeling this would come up. I think you have to put everything in perspective, and given that we are discussing the holodomor and the events of 85 years ago and the world not mentioned about the British Foreign service diplomat talking about they knew about it, but did not say anything about it meeting appeasement. We know what appeasement led to 1933 the United States recognize the soviet as an entityunion during the height of the fabric. We know what happened in the and appeasement and what that led to. I am looking at this in local context and perspective of the issue of appeasement, for whose sake . We have to know that the facts are out there. You have to know what builds a strong world, and that is democracy, democratic principles, a free and open society. And there is a fight going on right now not in some obscure part of the world, not in some land. Little plot of this is in the center of europe, at the heart of europes if we and the west, and particular the United States, dont realize that for exactly what it is, then i am fearful that that appeasement may lead to other unfortunate aspects in the future. Let me answer, not so much as someone who loves ukraine, but as someone who has some affection for ukraine. But a lot of affection for the United States. We have a serious geopolitical problem, and the leader of the worlds second most powerful military, with the Great Nuclear superpowers, has an agenda and to weaken nato, wants to we can transatlantic ties, whats to have a sphere of influence. Saymattis is correct to this is the most important danger we face today. We need a policy that recognizes that. Just about everyone chosen by President Trump to a Senior National security position seems to understand that. The new security advisor seems to get it. The secretary of state and director of the cia seem to get it. The Vice President seems to get it. It is not so clear that the president of the United States seems to get it. That is worrying. Having said that, we have seen in the wake of inclination on the part of our commanderinchief, to offer preemptive concessions to the , resistance from within the in ministration, and from congress. We have seen this with the ukrainian peace plan as reported by the New York Times. All this is making people wonder, what is up . As a result of this, we will ultimately see a sound policy recognizing the dangers of pollutants of putins support of and the facing we can educate our kids about the history of ukraine. Make sure they are in oculi did facts, fake news, fake and correct things. Educate them. And assist ukrainian Civil Society. Train their journalists, fund their schools, support their democratic movements. Ukraine will make an educated choice for itself. I would say we need to have more americans understand that people of ukraine are in the front lines. Not only for their independence and sovereignty, but defending your values. Ukraine doesnt just stay in ukraine. If you look at what putin is doing all over, whether it is in europe,ic, working in this is not an isolated case. But ukraine is on the front line, literally militarily. Succeeding, and it can succeed if we honor our , and given the tools militarily to ultimately succeed. They are fighting our fight. Message wethink, the need to more broadly understand within our own country. Timothy another question . Yes sir. One difference between 85 years ago and today is the role and presence of the Russian Orthodox church. Church has orthodox been supporting the separatist movement donbas in, i believe. For are a major conduit russian disinformation and the ukraine. I was wondering if anybody wants to comment on what you see going on in ukraine today, what seems to amount to a war within a war eetween the moscow patriarchat and the ukraine Catholic Church. Thank you. There is no question that the moscow patriarchate remains an issue with foreign policy. There is also little doubt the Russian OrthodoxChurch Moscow patriarchate was used during the revolution. As a result, they lost a substantial number of supporters. Nd believers in ukraine worsenedumstance also in the Current Crisis between russia and ukraine. Metropolitan of the moscow patriarchate understood what happened during the revolution, and he tried to mitigate mps support for the kremlin. By and large, the mp reverted. All of this has led to a strengthening of the position of the patriarchate and the Autonomous Church of ukraine. They remain strongly supportive of the Ukrainian National projects, but by and large, you havent seen Orthodox Christians in ukraine. One last point, when you have a of the keyierarchs branch of the moscow patriarchate pushing back against their leadership in moscow, that led to tensions within the mp between russia and ukraine. Michael one of the things i would add is there is a little ine i would like to mention terms of the russian world. This is the opportunity of russia to use, as a branch of its foreignpolicy arm, to speakingthose russian population in the near abroad, as they call it. The Baltic States and so forth. This is a conscious effort that is being used by the kremlin and by moscow on how to stifle resistance as much as possible. They use the church and that capacity. Notchurch here is necessarily about juristic type of church. Not necessarily an ultra stick not necessarily an altruistic type of church. We must understand that. This notion of warfare in ,kraine as we have alluded to that you crane is literally on the front lines, it is not just militarily. Whether we can go through congress and the administration and ask for weaponry for ukraine, it is not just about the military aspect. There is an informational hybrid war that is going on. Exactly that hyper warfare, but it has different facets to it. It has facets of cultural, religious, social. Andlook back in the 1930s even right after, what were some of the first people that stalin sent to prison . The intelligentsia and the priests, those that led Civil Society. Those that had trust within Civil Society. The 1930s,that in 1940s, 1950s. Who knows that today. Putin knows that today. The the russian nadia Russian Orthodox church has always been and continues to be an arm of the state. We see that even in terms of politics with the vatican. The council of all ukrainian churches and religious organizations is a powerful anecdotes to this. All the protestant churches, the muslim faith, the jewish faith, the orthodox and catholic, and they are a real active force and body. And weapon tore counterbalance what is being done by the Russian Orthodox church. I think its important to is not thehe problem Russian Orthodox church, as such, but the russian regimes coopting of the Russian Orthodox church. The Catholic Church and poland, for example, was an incredible force for good in bringing down communism specifically because polish identity was so wrapped up with the Catholic Church. That was a very important component. But why is the Russian Orthodox church so successful or the russian regime so successful in coopting the Russian Orthodox church . I think that needs a little more. Sk duration when kgb archives were open for a brief time in the 1990s, it became tragically clear that most of the Russian Orthodox priests were reporting what they heard and confessional to the kgb. A tremendous breach of personal trust. Interesting point is that most russians, despite communism, identify as orthodox. Identityt of their more so then a part of their faith. The russian regime is very successful on playing this up, almost harkening back to the old trinity of orthodoxy, autopsy, and nationhood. The russian regime is very successful on playing thisthe pl russian solicitation russian civilization. Old playoffs very identities and beliefs. What needs to be done is to a couple that. The real people of faith in the Russian Church have to take their church back. Timothy next question . Can we get a microphone over here. Elaine, associate director of wiuu. Thesed like to tie all points together, starting with michael. Your first statement was the french quote in the early 1800s. Basically, what we are seeing about how facts are manipulated to a particular end to their whim. All the weight what we are experienced at this very moment. We will all walk out and check the news and see some more of the fake news, the manipulation of the news, the propaganda. Everything that is being cranked out is becoming more and more difficult to know what is coming forward that is clear and accurate versus what is tainted. Said, what we are dealing with today is a very complex situation. Ukraine, what is happening in ukraine, the documentation of odomor, which brings half which brings past history to light. And now we are facing the effects of russias aggression ukraine being practiced and exported here in our society, in a different way. Ukraine beingagain, through in, manipulation, cyber issues. Respondould you like to to how we are going to be able to aggressively bring this forward to the American Public to understand how important this is in ukraine, because ukraine is us . Timothy thank you. Michael company want to start start . Michael, do you want to start . Not an easys question. I want to start with the positive things that have happened already, and how we as an American Society can build upon that. Last year, within the National Defense authorization act, there was an amendment which added 80 million for the formation of a center which would gather about then disinformation coming from russia, and to use that and leverage all of that disinformation coming and come up with the true narrative, as compared to putins narrative. So much evennot here in the United States of distributing that true narrative. Frankly speaking, its going back to ukraine or the near disturbing that information out there. I think that is one of the first keys to our success. It has to start on a local Civil Society basis in ukraine. If they get the information from us on how to combat that together in working unison with other western democracies, i think that is one of the first things we need to build upon. A second aspect is, even here, what some of my colleagues on the panel have alluded to, we need to get the truth out there as much as possible. Curriculum start in and high schools, not just about holodomor, but everything in general. There is a geostrategic context to all of this. This is not just about ukraine. We are discussing the issues of 85 years ago and how that relates to right now. What happened 85 years ago and what is happening now, what is happening now we can do something about. Bringing this to American Society, having more discussions such as this, i think is uniquely an opportune way to bring forth a little more of that combating that narrative as disinformation. Its much more difficult, sometimes, to do with this. What is happening in terms of this, it is weaponize information. It is a very hard concept to understand. You think of information as facts, and you build your case upon those facts. But it is actually weaponize it, making it into its own beast, so to say. Our workhats where lies ahead of us. Lets begin in these small steps, begin with Civil Society in the greater european venue and theater, and then when you do the same thing here in the United States. Education, like michael mentioned, is the key. If i can be so bold as to add to , one of myg list favorite books on communism is witness by whittaker chambers. ,n the introduction to the book where he is sitting in his farmhouse in new jersey writing the letter to his children, he writes a line that i always robert. Inoculatei want to you against communism before you ever learn the word. A belief in truth as an antidote to untruth. Learning the truth before you ever learn the untruth. Lets amend that for 2017. Lets inoculate our children against russian disinformation before they ever even learn the term. As everyone has noted, this is an enormous slick complex situation. The amount of resources and in honestly complex and enormously complex situation. I think that we need to be strategic about it. Fore i have some hope whenever program could be developed within the government to address this issue, i am not sure that that is the total answer. We know a government bureaucracy created to coordinate messaging will not be nimble and quick. I think it has a role. Thatconference last week Michaels Organization sponsored , one of the people was from the int world from the i. T. World in ukraine. He mentioned they have some volunteers working on this issue. Most of it is happening and social media. I would like to challenge the ukrainians who have proven themselves in this i. T. World being cuttingedge to take the initiative and somehow create a that will bring in the volunteers that they have to be strategic about it. It has to be fought on many fronts. Each of us with our respective organizations can play a role, but i think it requires a massive approach, particularly in the social media world. We have about 10 minutes left, which might give us time for two questions and short responses. In the back . Bob mcconnell. I would like to make a comment on something ms. Mcconnell just said. She challenged ukrainian i. T. Specialists. I would like to challenge the ukrainian government. They are incompetent and sending their own message. They are still talking, not about a war with ukraine, that ukraine, but an antiterrorist operation. What ise they said going on in true terms. Timothy thank you. Another question or comment . Yes maam. Hello. My name is roxana. I have been working with a nonprofit called ukrainians of colorado, providing assistance to victims of the war in ukraine. I recently moved here. I am also an aspiring scholar on ukrainian issues, particularly holodomor. I would like to thank you so much for hosting this panel. It is very important for people to realize the importance. I would just like for you to please speak about what has been done here in the u. S. , and what you think should be done, as far as trying to get holodomor on the level of recognition of the holocaust, which ukrainians also there hasnd, but also ban to deny the holocaust. And also the symbolism of not sm. As a of nazi the communist symbols of the hammer and sigel have been popular with hollywood. I believe it was Kim Kardashian who recently appeared wearing a sweatshirt wearing the hammer and sickle. For many people, that was very offensive. I was just wondering, since holodomor is an academy of the great evil of communism that has happened, particularly in , along with several other genocides and famines that arent as well researched, but i would like to know what you think can be done and what has been done to try and put bandomor on that level too the denial of it . A lot has been done. It may not be evident, but i think this is where the rest of us, in terms of American Society, we have to roll up our Shirt Sleeves and get to work. Michael worldwide, there are only 13 countries who having knowledge who have acknowledged holodomor as a genocide. That needs to happen. Forthour role to bring this motion of recognizing holodomor as a genocide. The remains first and foremost. All the u. S. Did have a commission on the ukraine famine as it was called in 1988, it did mention that we find that it was a genocide. The u. S. Government as a whole has not recognized it as of yet. Interestingly enough, if you go to the legislation which enacted construction and building of the memorial and washington, d. C. , it does state that it is holodomor construction and builf the ukrainian famine genocide of 19321933. Certain things have been done. Education nadia . Its all about education. This all begins from local grassroots and goes further up. It is necessary for you to get out there as much as possible in your School Boards and respective states to get this done. The state of illinois is mandatory that you have to learn socialolodomor in studies classes. Massachusetts is fighting that battle right now. , two years ago, had a question on european history about holodomor, and you get to choose to answer that or another aspect about world war ii. There are certain things that are out there. I can give you a great example. Senator schumer, when he appears at our yearly commemoration of holodomor, he always mentions this is the ukrainian holocaust. The more this information gets us there, the more it gives the fortitude to move forward. Timothy thank you. A lot to give everyone a chance to have closing remarks. Of you to concrete examples of Education Programs we are doing. Have one that brings High School Teachers into washington dc, trains them on curricula, and since the backup of their high schools to talk to this did. We also do College Programs where it bring speakers like us and films to campus. Film is the most important component, i think. The trailer we just saw, the was a holodomor genocide are big words that not everyone can access. If you make a film that has Russian Troops coming over the border to confiscate grain during a time of famine, now we are getting somewhere. Nadia i would underscore that. You cant get everybody to read history books or sit down for history. But begin to spoonfeed, and i havent seen the film, but i think what has been said about it is an Excellent Way to introduce this topic and get people interested. , once it is in theaters, to use it in various settings in schools or organizations as sort of a soft touch. Since people have been promoting books, im going to promote one. Its fiction, called child 44. It is a murder mystery. You cant put it down. It is set at the time of the holodomor. It is an easy way to introduce. The film is not nearly as good as the book, but it is an easy way to get people to be introduced to the topic in a different way. Im going to make a comment to mr. Mcconnell. Frustrationsen i have noted in the last several weeks, there have been some interesting infographics. I think that is what is needed, whether you are trying to go to congress. They wanted on one page. We can spoonfeed the various that wouldformation be helpful. Hopefully there will be more coming out from the ukrainian government. Timothy we have about two minutes if you want to give any thoughts you any thoughts. John i think there is no clear understanding and society as a whole of the horrors of the communist project. For that reason, you see communist symbols, the of thatng glorification thug che guevara. You need to change the culture in order for people to understand that this use of symbols from this absolutely historically we are in a preconsciousness phase right now. Im trying to be a realist beard i dont see us reaching this decision as a society even in the midterm. I think over time it can happen. I hope this bitter harvest will be an initial breakthrough. Thank you. I would like to thank the panelists, if you could join me in a round of applause. I believe there is a reception after this. Thank you very much. [applause]