Some of the most exciting things we are seeing are related to the other major shift. Here is one experiment. In afghanistan, we have given afghani women cell phones. They can take pictures of projects in action. They can transmit them to our office. It has a feature that if they are stopped on the road side, there is one button they push and gets rid of the pictures. It does not put them in danger. We give them access to Cell Phone Services and give them a concrete way of monitoring corruption. We also protect them in case they get stopped. Citizen voice will not go away. If there is anything we have learned from the arab spring, everybody can twet and go on facebook. If you bring together best practices with citizen engagement, that is a great path. You have to have delivery. I started off with a Nonprofit Agency to try to improve government. The slogan i got from Thomas Edison is appropriate. Vision without execution is hallucination. [laughter] we have a lot of vision here about dealing with corruption. We can expound about the glories about dealing with corruption. You have a practical problem of dealing with it in difficult circumstances. Both the delivery and supply and demand side. It is not easy. You have to keep at it. If the world bank does not do it, nobody else will do it. If you dont do it, everybody will use it as an excuse for not doing it themselves. You have to work as you are with other agencies and whatever the rest of us can do to help the corporation and other aid agencies. We ought to be there with you. Vision without execution is hallucination. What i am hearing is we have two different eras here. We have the era of facebook, twitter, social media. Smartphones taking pictures. They can get rid of any of the pictures. Then we have the era where 72 words where you mentioned corruption in a big speech . I am adjusted to see what a former World Bank President who started this process has to say to the current World Bank President. You can be very candid. I think there is no doubt that there are 60 countries that have signed on to trying to prevent corruption. Typically, they are the more developed countries. If you take, as an example, the Natural Resources countries, principally in africa that leaves 52 that do not. That reminded me that when i was at the bank, he decided i should go and talk to the president s of african countries. I went with a simple proposition. We divided them into quartiles. We would meet with 14 or 15 at a time. I would speak to them without their assistants, just 14 or 15 men. I said, look, you are very corrupt many of you. Did you really say that . I said to them, you may think it is ridiculous. You are corrupt, and it has been a practice here. What if we establish a date . Between now and then, you can steal anything you want. Im speaking to i said, steal everything you want. We cant stop you. But lets set a date when you are going to go honest. Together, we can establish a practice that would remove the corruption. You will all be rich. You will be living in europe. But lets set a date when the country has to move a clear cut attack on corruption. Some of them said, that is an interesting idea. I said, can you get in touch with me . I heard from nobody. We went to the countries and tried very hard. I even took with me on one these trips the gentleman who became president of germany. He thought this was unusual approach. But we tried this. I thought this was at least an honest approach. Sadly, it did not work. I dont know how you break through in many of these countries where there is a narrow group of people who are profiting from the corruption. Maybe you have an idea. Jim went to one very powerful leader and said, there is corruption and you need to fix it. He said, what you call corruption we call family values. [laughter] who was that person . [laughter] it is not my story. Mr. Wolfensohn . I cannot remember. This illustrates, even when you are up front, it does not necessarily work. Lets go back to Transparency International. I know there are areas that are working. Can you share that with us . You have to let me just look at two or three countries. There could be many more. There are common things that have been happening in those countries. Whether you are looking at botswana. They have had very interesting leaders from the day that they became independent. To this day, in our Corruption Perception index, botswana is in the top 20. Out of 175180. That means people see this country as being quite clean. Look at chile. Quite a lot happened in the short time. People say, is going to take a long time. I say, i am very impatient. When you look at chile, within a period of about a decade, a lot happened in terms of brazil is doing some interesting things. When you look at some of the bribery legislation the u. S. Has been there a long time ago uk, eu, brazil will have some legislation come into place. Norway. A number of countries have been doing that. Going back to the point that president kim was saying, you need to work at all levels. Not just one level. You need to bring all the parties to the table. That is the people. First of all, they need information. Industry, business can have an Important Role to play. Between government, Civil Society organization, who support and work with the people but who also provide advice and work with industry and government. You need to put a fire under all of these people and bring them around that bonfire. I would like to say word about the bank. The bank has had and continues to have a tremendous role to play. It is in just about every country about the world. There are people on the ground who can help to share and exchange that information, that knowledge, provide support through lending money as well of the grant money. Provide some support for that. You are both on the prevention side and learning side and the enforcement side. We have had an Important Role both as the preventer and enforcer. If we see a project where a lot of people are talking about corruption but nothing is happening, then they will think we favor impunity. This has an Important Role. If you look at the g 20, where a lot of work is being done, at least commitments are made to deal with Money Laundering the stealing of assets. Enforcement, regulations so that bank secrecy does not prevent the investigations that are taking place to try to find the money that has been stolen from the countries and bring it back to the people so that development can take place. So that you dont hide your money in equity in companies around the world. There are a lot of things that are happening where the bank has tremendous knowledge and brain power and resources to make a difference. As a Civil Society organization, Transparency International has been pleased to work with the bank. I would love the panel to tell us something new that is going to be so startling that we make the headlines tomorrow. Maybe something you dont say in public. This is a relaxed conversation. To hear the conversations that go on a little bit like that James Wolfensohn shared at the beginning. Those moments, those thoughts are instructional and helpful. Mr. Volker . You want me to give a relaxed News Presence . We talked about all the difficulties of dealing with corruption in countries. That is true in many countries. All of which are represented in the world bank board. It is a hard problem, dealing with corruption by all these other countries. It is a hard time keeping the minds of the people in the world bank on the subject. It is a tough and unpleasant subject and makes it hard to get the money out there and get a project started. There was a lot of resistance to mr. Wolfensohn when he made his point. When i came along 10 years later, it was quite evident. Thats why i came along. There was a recognition that the bank itself had to do better in concentrating on this issue. The speech we heard from the president just now set out the leadership prerequisite. It is important that that penetrate through the bank. My impression is that beginning a few years ago, you began to make more progress right here in this institution in dealing with it. Let me leave with you the challenge. Im not sure it is the front page of the washington post, but it is the vest i can do at the moment. [applause] what happened five plus years ago that seems to be a turning point . It was a hell of a fight in the bank. It revolved around this issue. There may have been a lot of misunderstanding. It was the point at which the bank finally internalized the fight on corruption. It took more than it took the speech by the president to signal this. It took more than the speed to get this done. You can feel how difficult it is elsewhere in the world. A place where you have the opportunity to change the subject. Anticorruption is a popular slogan in many countries. Sometimes it is sincerely felt, other times less so. When they win, this is a pervasive political argument around the world, then we have to find a way to jump in there and support real reformers on the ground. They have a tough job. If they do get elected, into office, that is the time that they need help. It is not easy to do. Do we have the structures, the programs that are necessary to help them . To help them develop rules and procedures . Let me jump in. I want to hear from the minister. Let me jump in for a second. My first day on the job, i walked into the office. A group of managers took me aside and said it was like 9 00 they said, you have a decision to make. Whether you cancel this major bridge project where we have discovered corruption. That was the first decision i had to make. Oh and by the way, the people that are proponents are outside waiting to protest you. We cancelled that right there. The first decision i made. My predecessor was absolutely clear. He said, there is no tolerance for corruption. I think the frame shift that has happened is so great that jim used the word cancer. Some people say, it is a culture of corruption. These cultures go back generations. Theres a sense of inevitability when you use the word culture. As an anthropologist, one thing we see is cultures change quickly. You have a cancer, and you have to treat it. By the way, we know from all over the world it is treatable. If it is not treated, that is malpractice on your part is the attitude we have to have. One that there are so many good examples of cultures of corruption been transformed by the way, if you dont do it, your citizens will hold you accountable. That is the attitude that we have to have. Whatever you think the culture of the cancer was before, here are tools for you to use right now. It is a matter of your choosing whether you want to tackle it during your campaign or not. By the way, we will be watching. Minister cesar purisima, im going to go to you next. The thought process on the first day, what was going through your mind . I had known about jim and i were friends before i took over i knew this was a major issue. First of all, i said, let me see the evidence. They showed me. It was overwhelming. It is not a wink and a nod. If there is evidence, you have to take a stand. My medical training is, what is the evidence . If the evidence is clear, you have to take a stand. About the same time, the other side of the equation a big, respected German Company was caught bribing people around the world. Suddenly that company gets caught up in the world bank was part of it. It made a big impact on the supply side of corruption. Which requires a lot more intelligence and followup. Two dramatic instances, one from the demand side and one from the supply side. They represent a change in attitude. Changing the culture. Two dramatic instances where we showed we did care. We are in the candid zone. We are attempting to make headlines for the next day by being very open. Minister . I want to remind you that i caught my breath. You might think that i am trying to i want to pick up on the point raised by mr. Volcker. I think corruption should be our fight. All of the Global Community. There is one thing called an idea. Corruption is about money. It is about time that the Global Community think about a passport for funds. There is a passport for us to move between countries. Why not for funds . My cell phone number, you can medially tell it is from the philippines. There should be a convention on tax account numbers and movement of funds, movement of goods, if we are serious in fighting corruption. It has to be a global fight. Not just a fight of the filipinos of the philippines. Companies facilitate corruption. We have seen the effects of corruption on people, on poverty and hopelessness. That is why we are passionate about this fight. The last point i think that the key is in helping countries build institutions. We can have a lot of interventions, but if we dont build institutions, we wont be able to sustain this fight against poverty. Its not going to be solved overnight with one program. It will be a journey. Just checking, so mr. Volcker knows i am paying attention, vision without execution . Is it possible to work as a world together . The world bank is in a unique position. Its membership is the community of nations. You can be the one who will espouse the vision and help with execution. Simple ideas will make it more difficult it will make the movement to the money market difficult. Lets think strengthened further for having a passport for funds. I find this very interesting. That is a new one. If we look at the next 1015 years, given from where you are, our population will go up to 8. 5 billion by 2025. Movement to cities, urbanization is key. If you look at the emerging countries and their demand and needs for greater resources, both looking at urbanization as well as population increase, extreme weather when you begin and the depletion of some of the resources looking at the infrastructure demand, ernst young estimates 57 trillion until 2030. The amount of money that could be lost and resources or that could be saved could make a huge difference in terms of the people of the world. Ideas like those are very, very interesting. We have to open up our mind to thinking this way and bring the people together. The discussion right now on the post2015 new Development Goals is an opportunity. The point that this is cultural and the values i am asked, is corruption a cultural issue . I say, it is not. It is a practice. It becomes a practice as opposed to being in the peoples dna. I think corruption is a cancer. Very virulent. We could go on. To think about it in those terms. Go ahead. Let me make a parable. I spent this time yesterday morning listening to the mayor of new york making a speech. About how new york is driving during his administration, which is true. When you look at part of what has happened in new york in the past 25 years, a lot has happened. One big change that was made in mr. Bloombergs era and by his predecessor was they started dealing with petty crime. Breaking windows, everybody who demanded money for cleaning your windshield. Stealing pocketbooks. Not much attention was made. They said, lets deal with the petty crime. Somehow, that spread into a major crime. New york is entirely a different city with a different culture than it was 30 years ago. You could not walk down park avenue 30 years ago without turning around to see if anybody was following you. Now, it is one of the safest cities in the u. S. Who would have ever thought that the city of 7 million would be the safest . Because they have been disciplined about the petty stuff and some of the other things. It shows up in a different culture. James wolfensohn, can you contribute anything else . The largest economy in the world will be china soon. In my experience, in terms of them joining into agreements in terms of disclosure, for example, they have been completely absent. When you talk about bidding for International Contracts or anything that they are engaged in in terms of their financial arrangements, it is not clear, to put it mildly. If you have a country like china which will be the leading economy in the world, how does your program do with that . No one country, no matter how big, is an island. If we all Work Together to require that of them, i think they have to step up. They are not selfsufficient in everything. They will have to deal with others. If we succumb to their size and operate the way they operate, i think we have made the cancer a terminal one. I would like to look at this problem that has created a cancer for all of us. The good thing is, it can be treated. Unlike most cancers. The other thing is, i am hopeful that as they mature and become more prosperous, hopefully they move up in terms of values. In the meantime, since they are not yet there, it is incumbent on the leaders to make sure this happens. The u. S. Is still the place to start this issue. Use it under your breath, good question. Im wondering how you would respond . The big issue at the g8 meeting was transparency. Taxes. If you look at china specifically, everything we are hearing coming out of the latest plan, even looking at their choices of who they have chosen to further this issue, they chose the firemen of china to tackle this issue. This is a guy who is widely known as nononsense and tremendously committed and successful. I think that the words and the deeds we are hearing out of china, jim, are encouraging. This administration seems to be much more committed. Lets keep going. The reforms they are making in terms of letting the market determine the his tradition of resources. These are revolutionary. We will hope that this leads to a kind of openness that ends up being a model for the world, if they continue with what they have told us. His activities are all related to corruption internally. They are not related to corruption that relates to external business. I think that is a very big hurdle to jump. Again, i think our role is to be as vigilant as we possibly can and call it out when we see it. The first decision i had to make was this one. It set a tone. This is what we have to do. We have to call it out when we see it. We have to encourage it everyone, especially all the major players, to look at it internally and externally. I think the new york example is a good one. There are so many things that happen because they set targets and went after them. In climate change, mayor bloomberg said we would reduce carbon by 30 by 2030. They are going to get there by 2017. You can just say, we are going to deal with corruption generally. You have to have targets. If you have those in china and everywhere else, and very strong commitments, this has got to be an area, corruption, where we may commit his progress. Im going to give our guests time to sync up to send everybody way who is watching online and here in the auditorium, something for them to chew over that keeps them going, that makes this memorable for them. I will give you 203 minutes. Minutes. I will ask Jim Wolfensohn to give us one more antidote. It is fabulous listen to your stories. Do you have one . I think you should talk to jim yong kim, the current president. Do you have anything that you would like to bring to our attention . [laughter] there is no particular story. That story of when i entered, it is an ongoing issue. The other piece of that story is that happens to be a Critical Development project. Canceling it was difficult. These are the things that we have to balance. I had to cancel something that would have had a Huge Development impact. That is the red line that you have to draw. No matter how important a Development Impact might be, you have to be ready to cancel something if you see carrots and corruption. It was a few people, a few people who had done this. Now, we hope it goes forward. It is unclear whether it will go forward. That is the difficulty of this job. Youve to be ready to make that kind of decision. Paul volcker, you seem to want to say something. China in particular has been resistant to dealing with corruption by their own companies. Which were hardly independent countries. It is also the world bank and the oil for food program. Principal violators are chinese companies, one of the principal violators. Try to get the Chinese Government to react, it was a blank wall. Theyey wont deal with it, wont consider it and this was a few years ago. Im not sure how much it has changed today. Quick ones. Of the that a lot National Resources of the future are in highly vulnerable our developing countries. If we can support those countries and help them, give themselves the capacity and the power to be able to negotiate with the very strong powers which are some of our countries in addition to china, who want those resources, that is one thing i would like to leave. Wholecond one is on the issue that if we could relegate and lead to a new cemetery somewhere, that would help. We werepoint is that talking about development, which is so important and we know the impediment that corruption is