Transcripts For CSPAN 1992 Presidential Candidates Second Debate 20161009

This and reform the irs and our tax code. You need to go to better. Gop and see what our solutions are. We need to go from being seen as just an Opposition Party to being a proposition party. And that is exactly what we are doing. We are showing you, our fellow citizens, that we as republicans, that we as conservatives have answers and solutions to this countrys big problems. And i just want to tell you something. We have got a responsibility for ourselves right here in wisconsin. Weve got a responsibility right here in wisconsin. And our responsibility right here in wisconsin is to make sure that we do not send Russ Feingold to the United States senate to join the liberal progressives, giving us liberal judges. Weve got to do everything for ron johnson, to make sure ron johnson is and stays and remains our United States senator. This is something that is right here within our power. This is something that we as wisconsinites need to do. So i just want to say to all of you for fall fest, thank you for coming out and supporting us. I see so many friends. I see so many people who have been out there working hard for us. Thank you so much for working for us. Thank you so much. I want to ask ron johnson and scott walker to come out here. Ron johnson is the man we have to put forth. With conservatives are offering solutions. This is a we what we will do here in wisconsin. We will deliver our electoral votes. We will fight for our conservatives. And we will offer this country solution than meet the moment for what it is. Thank you for coming out of everybody. T thank is so much, you guys. God bless you all. Thank you. Appreciate it. [applause] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. Visit ncicap. Org] [captions Copyright National cable satellite corp. 2016] next, a look at past president ial debates. We will begin with bush, clinton, and ross perot. Then, the debate between al gore and george w. Bush. And then the debate between barack obama and mitt romney. In 1990 two, president george h. W. Bush, arkansas governor bill clinton, and texas businessman ross perot met in the firstever president ial town of thebate on the Campus University of richmond in virginia. This is about one hour and 35 minutes. You are too noisy. I need you. [indiscernible conversation] [applause] good evening a end welcome to the second of three president ial debates between the major candidates for president of the United States. The candidates are the republican nominee president george bush, the independent bill clinton,rnor the democratic nominee. My name is Carol Simpson and i will be the moderator for two nights 90minute debate coming coming to the you from the university of richmond to in richmond, virginia. We are making a history and it is pretty exciting. An independent polling firm has selected an audience of 209 uncommitted voters from this area. The candidates will be asked questions by these motors on a topic of their choosing. Anything you want to ask about. To takes moderator is care of the questioning, ask questions myself if i think there needs to be continuity and balance and sometimes i might ask the candidates to respond to what another candidate mightve said. Format has been agreed to by the representatives of both the republican and democratic campaigns and there is no subject matter that is restricted. Anything goes. We can ask anything. After the debate, the candidates will have the opportunity to make a closing statement. President bush, i think you said it earlier lets get it on. Lets go. Question ishe first over here. I would like to direct my question to mr. Perot. Foreignyou do to open markets to fair competition for American Business and stop unfair competition here at home from foreign country so we can bring jobs back to the United States . Pro that is at the top of perot that is of the top of my agenda. The first thing you outages get all these folks to say, fellas, we will take the same deal. They will gridlock at that point because for example, we have got International Competitors who simply could not unload their cars off the ships if they had to comply. Just didnt do it. Stop sending jobs overseas. To those of you in the audience were businesspeople, it is pretty simple. If youre paying 12, 13, 14 for factory workers and you could move your factory to south of the border and pay your workers one dollar an hour for care, thee no health most expensive single item affecting your cost, no environmental or pollution controls, no retirement, and you do not care about anything but making money, there will be a giant sucking sound going south. So the first thing i will do is study that 2000 state trade agreement. Notcided i was dumb and did understand it so i talked to people at then around it and said, 11 everybody goes south. They said it will be disruptive i said for how long. I finally got em for 12 to 15 years. And i said, well, how does it stop being disruptive . And that is when their jobs come up from a dollar an hour to 6 an hour, and ours go down to 6 an hour then its leveled again, but in the meantime youve wrecked the country with these kind of deals. We got to cut it out. Ms. Simpson thank you, mr. Perot. I see that the president has stood up, so he must have something to say about this. President bush carole, the thing that saved us in this Global Economic slowdown has been our exports, and what im trying to do is increase our exports. And if indeed all the jobs were going to move south because there are lower wages, there are lower wages now and they havent done that. And so i have just negotiated with the president of mexico the north American Free trade agreement and the Prime Minister of canada, i might add and i want to have more of these free trade agreements, because export jobs are increasing far faster than any jobs that may have moved overseas. Thats a scare tactic, because its not that many. But any one thats here, we want to have more jobs here. And the way to do that is to increase our exports. Some believe in protection. I dont i believe in free and fair trade, and thats the thing that saved us. So i will keep on as president trying to get a successful conclusion to the gatt round, the big uruguay round of trade which will really open up markets for our agriculture particularly. I want to continue to work after we get this nafta agreement ratified this coming year. I want to get one with Eastern Europe i want to get one with chile. And free and fair trade is the answer, not protection. And, as i say, weve had tough economic times, and its exports that have saved us, exports that have built. Ms. Simpson governor clinton. Governor clinton id like to answer the question, because ive actually been a governor for 12 years, so ive known a lot of people who have lost their jobs because of jobs moving overseas, and i know a lot of people whose plants have been strengthened by increasing exports. The trick is to expand our export base and to expand trade on terms that are fair to us. It is true that our exports to mexico, for example, have gone up and our trade deficit has gone down its also true that just today a record high trade deficit was announced with japan. So what is the answer . Let me just mention three things very quickly. Number one, make sure that other countries are as open to our markets as our markets are to them, and, if theyre not, have measures on the books that dont take forever and a day to implement. Number two, change the tax code. There are more deductions in the tax code for shutting plants down and moving overseas than there are for modernizing plant and equipment here. Our competitors dont do that. Emphasize and subsidize modernizing plant and equipment here, not moving plants overseas. Number three, stop the federal Governments Program that now gives lowinterest loans and job training funds to companies that will actually shut down and move to other countries, but we wont do the same thing for plants that stay here. So more trade but on fair terms and favor investment in america. Ms. Simpson thank you. I think we have a question over here. This is for governor clinton. In the real world, that is, outside of washington, dc, compensation and achievement are based on goals defined and achieved. My question is about the deficit. Would you define in specific dollar goals how much you would reduce the deficit in each of the 4 years of a Clinton Administration and then enter into a legally binding contract with the American People, that if you did not achieve those goals that you would not seek a 2nd term . Answer yes or no and then comment on your answer, please. Governor clinton no, and heres why. And ill tell you exactly why. Because the deficit now has been building up for 12 years. Ill tell you exactly what i think can be done. I think we can bring it down by 50 in 4 years and grow the economy. Now, i could get rid of it in 4 years in theory on the books now, but to do it youd have to raise taxes too much and cut benefits too much to people who need them and it would even make the economy worse. Mr. Perot will tell you, for example, that the expert he hired to analyze his plan says that it will bring the deficit down in 5 years but it will make unemployment bad for 4 more years. So my view is, sir, you have to increase investment, grow the economy and reduce the deficit by Controlling Health care costs, prudent reductions in defense, cuts in domestic programs and asking the wealthiest americans and Foreign Corporations to pay their fair share of taxes and investing and growing this economy. I ask everybody to look at my economic ideas and 9 nobel Prize Winners and over 500 economists and hundreds of business people, including a lot of republicans said, this is the way youve got to go. If you dont grow the economy you cant get it done. But i cant foresee all the things that will happen, and i dont think a president should be judged solely on the deficit. Let me also say, were having an election today. Youll have a shot at me in 4 years and you can vote me right out if you think ive done a lousy job and i would welcome you to do that. Ms. Simpson mr. President. President bush well, im a little confused here, because i dont see how you can grow the deficit down by raising peoples taxes. You see, i dont think the American People are taxed too little. I think theyre taxed too much. I went for one tax increase and when i make a mistake i admit it. I said that wasnt the right thing to do. Governor clintons program wants to tax more and spend more 150 billion in new taxes, spend another 220. I dont believe thats the way to do it. Heres some thing thatll help. Give us a balanced budget amendment. He always talks about arkansas having a balanced budget and they do, but he has a balanced budget amendment. Have to do it. Id like the government to have that. And i think it would discipline not only the congress, which needs it, but also the executive branch. Id like to have what 43 governors have the line item veto, so if the congress cant cut, and weve got a reckless spending congress, let the president have a shot at it by wiping out things that are pork barrel or something of that nature. Ive proposed another one. Some sophisticates think it may be a little gimmicky. I think its good. Its a check off. It says to you as a taxpayer say youre going to pay a tax of 1000 bucks or something. You can check 10 of that if you want to, in the 1 box, and that 10 , 100, or if youre paying 10,000, whatever it is, 1000, check it off and make the government, make it lower the deficit by that amount. And if the Congress Wont do it, if they cant get together and negotiate how to do that, then youd have a sequester across the board. Youd exempt Social Security i dont want to tax or touch Social Security. Im the president that said hey, dont mess with Social Security, and we havent. So i believe that we need to control the growth of mandatory spending, back to this gentlemans question. Thats the main growing thing in the budget. The program that the president twothirds of the budget, i as president never get to look at, never get to touch. Weve got to control that growth to inflation and population increase, but not raise taxes on the American People now. I just dont believe that would stimulate any kind of growth at all. Ms. Simpson how about you, mr. Perot . Mr. Perot well, were 4 trillion in debt. Were going into debt an additional 1 billion, little more than 1 billion every working day of the year. Now, the thing i love about it im just a businessman. I was down in texas taking care of business, tending to my family. This situation got so bad that i decided id better get into it. The American People asked me to get into it. But i just find it fascinating that while we sit here tonight we will go into debt an additional 50 million in an hour and a half. Now, its not the republicans fault, of course, and its not the democrats fault. And what im looking for is who did it . Now, theyre the 2 folks involved so maybe if you put them together, they did it. Now, the facts are we have to fix it. Im here tonight for these young people up here in the balcony from this college. When i was a young man, when i got out of the navy i had multiple job offers. Young people with high grades cant get a job. People the 18 to 24yearold High School Graduates 10 years ago were making more than they are now. In other words, we were down to 18 of them were making 18 to 24year olds were making less than 12,000. Now thats up to 40 . And whats happened in the meantime . The dollars gone through the floor. Now, whose fault is that . Not the democrats. Not the republicans. Somewhere out there theres an extraterrestrial thats doing this to us, i guess. And everybody says they take responsibility. Somebody somewhere has to take responsibility for this. Put it to you bluntly, American People. If you want me to be your president , were going to face our problems. Well down our debt. Well pass on the American Dream to our children, and i will not leave our children a situation that they have today. When i was a boy it took 2 generations to double the standard of living. Today it will take 12 generations. Our children will not see the American Dream because of this debt that somebody somewhere dropped on us. Ms. Simpson youre all wonderful speakers, and i know you have lots more to add, but ive talked to this audience, and they have lots of questions on other topics. Can we move to another topic, please . We have one up here, i think. Yes, id like to address all the candidates with this question. The amount of time the candidates have spent in this campaign trashing their opponents character and their programs is depressingly large. Why cant your discussions and proposals reflect the genuine complexity and the difficulty of the issues to try to build a consensus around the best aspects of all proposals . Ms. Simpson who wants to take that one . Mr. Perot, you have an answer for everything, dont you . Go right ahead, sir. Mr. Perot no, i dont have an answer for everything. As you all know, ive been buying 30minute segments to talk about issues. And tomorrow night on nbc, from 10 30 to 11 eastern, were going to talk about how you pay the debt down, so were going to come right down to that one. Well be on again saturday night, 8 to 9 oclock on abc. So the point is president bush like jerry brown, the 800 number. Mr. Perot i couldnt agree with you more, couldnt agree with you more. And i have said again and again and again lets get off mud wrestling, lets get off personalities and lets talk about jobs, health care, crime, the things that concern the American People. Im spending my money not pac money, not foreign money, my money to take this message to the people. Ms. Simpson thank you, mr. Perot. So that seems directed he would say its you gentlemen that have been doing that. Mr. Clinton, governor clinton oh, president bush, how would you like to respond . President bush well, in the first place, i believe that character is a part of being president. I think you have to look at it. I think that has to be a part of a candidate for president or being president. In terms of programs, ive submitted, what, 4 different budgets to the us congress in great detail. Its so heavy theyd give you a broken back. And everything in there says what i am for. Now ive come out with a new agenda for americas renewal, a plan that i believe really will help stimulate the growth of this economy. My record on World Affairs is pretty well known because ive been president for 4 years, so i feel ive been talking issues. You know, nobody likes who shot john, but i think the first negative campaign run in this election was by governor clinton, and im not going to sit there and be a punching bag im going to stand up and say, hey, listen, heres my side of it. But character is an important part of the equation. The other night governor clinton raised my i dont know if you saw the debate the other night. You did suffered through that . Well, he raised the question of my father it was a good line, well rehearsed and well delivered. But he raised the question of my father and said, well, your father, prescott bush, was against mccarthy, you should be ashamed of yourself, mccarthyism. I remember something my dad told me i was 18 years old going to penn station to go on into the navy, and he said write your mother which i faithfully did he said serve your country my father was an honor, duty and country man and he said tell the truth. And ive tried to do that in public life, all through it. That says something about character. My argument with governor clinton you can call it mud wrestling, but i think its fair to put in focus is i am deeply troubled by someone who demonstrates and organizes demonstration in a foreign land when his countrys at war. Probably a lot of kids here disagree with me. But thats what i feel. Thats what i feel passionately about. Im thinking of ross perots running mate sitting in the jail. How would he feel about it . But maybe thats generational. I dont know. But the big argument i have with the governor on this is this taking different positions on different issues trying to be one thing to one person here thats opposing the nafta agreement and then for it what we call waffling. And i do think that you cant turn the white house into the waffle house. Youve got to say what youre for and youve got to ms. Simpson mr. President , im getting time cues and with all due respect president bush excuse me. I dont want to ms. Simpson im sorry. President bush i dont want to ms. Simpson governor clinton. President bush i get wound up because i feel strongly ms. Simpson yes, you do. [laughter] governor clinton let me say first of all to you that i believe so strongly in the question you asked that i suggested this format tonight. I started doing these formats a year ago in New Hampshire and i found that we had huge crowds because all i did was let people ask questions and i tried to give very specific answers. I also had a Program Starting last year. Ive been disturbed by the tone and the tenor of this campaign. Thank goodness the networks have a fact check so i dont have to just go blue in the face anymore. Mr. Bush said once again i was going to have 150 billion tax increase. When mr. Quayle said that all the networks said, thats not true. Hes got over 100 billion of tax cuts and incentives. So im not going to take up your time tonight, but let me just say this. Well have a debate in 4 days and we can talk about this character thing again. But the Washington Post ran a long editorial today saying they couldnt believe mr. Bush was making character an issue and they said he was the greatest quote political chameleon for changing his positions of all times. Now, i dont want to get into that president bush please dont get into the Washington Post. Governor clinton wait a minute. Lets dont you dont have to believe it. Heres my point. Im not interested in his character. I want to change the character of the presidency. And im interested in what we can trust him to do and what you can trust me to do and what you can trust mr. Perot to do for the next 4 years. So i think youre right and i hope the rest of the night belongs to you. Ms. Simpson may i i talked to this audience before you gentlemen came and i asked them about how they felt about the tenor of the campaign. Would you like to let them know what you thought about that, when i said are you pleased with how the campaigns been going . audience no. who wants to say why you dont like the way the campaign is going . We have a gentleman back here. And forgive the notes here but im shy on camera. The focus of my work as a domestic mediator is meeting the needs of the children that i work with, by way of their parents, and not the wants of their parents. And i ask the three of you, how can we, as symbolically the children of the future president , expect the two of you, the three of you to meet our needs, the needs in housing and in crime and you name it, as opposed to the wants of your political spin doctors and your Political Parties . Ms. Simpson so your question is . Can we focus on the issues and not the personalities and the mud . I think theres a need, if we could take a poll here with the folks from gallup perhaps, i think theres a real need here to focus at this point on the needs. Ms. Simpson how do you respond . How do you gentlemen respond to governor clinton i agree with him. President bush lets do it. Ms. Simpson president bush . President bush lets do it. Lets talk about programs for children. Could we cross our hearts . It sounds silly here but could we make a commitment . You know, were not under oath at this point but could you make a commitment to the citizens of the us to meet our needs, and we have many, and not yours again . I repeat that. Its a real need, i think, that we all have. President bush i think it depends how you define it. I mean, i think in general, lets talk about these issues. Lets talk about the programs. But in the presidency, a lot goes into it. Caring goes into it. Thats not particularly specific. Strength goes into it. Thats not specific. Standing up against aggression. Thats not specific in terms of a program. This is what a president has to do. So in principle, though, ill take your point and think we ought to discuss child care or whatever else it is. Ms. Simpson and you, too . Governor clinton ross had his hand up. Ms. Simpson yes. Mr. Perot just no hedges, no ifs, ands and buts. Ill take the pledge because i know the American People want to talk about issues and not tabloid journalism. So ill take the pledge and will stay on the issues. Now, just for the record, i dont have any spin doctors. I dont have any speechwriters. Probably shows. I make those charts you see on television. But you dont have to wonder if its me talking. See, what you see is what you get and if you dont like it, you got two other choices, right . Governor clinton wait a minute. I want to say just one thing now, ross, in fairness. The ideas i express are mine. Ive worked on these things for 12 years and im the only person up here who hasnt been part of washington in any way for the last 20 years. So i dont want the implication to be that somehow everything we say is just cooked up and put in our head by somebody else. I worked 12 years very hard as a governor on the real problems of real people. Im just as sick as you are by having to wake up and figure out how to defend myself every day. I never thought id ever be involved in anything like this. Mr. Perot may i finish . Ms. Simpson yes, you may finish. Mr. Perot very briefly . Ms. Simpson yes, very briefly. Mr. Perot and i dont have any foreign money in my campaign. I dont have any foreign lobbyists on leave in my campaign. I dont have any pac money in my campaign. Ive got 5. 5 million hardworking people who put me on the ballot, and i belong to them. And theyre interested in what youre interested in. I take the pledge. Ive already taken the pledge on cutting the deficit in half. I never got to say that. Theres a great young group, lead or leave, college students, young people, who dont want us to spend their money. I took the pledge wed cut it out. Ms. Simpson thank you. We have a question here. Yes. I would like to get a response from all three gentlemen. And the question is, what are your plans to improve the physical infrastructure of this nation, which includes the water system, the sewer system, our transportation systems, etcetera. Thank you. Ms. Simpson the cities. Whos going to fix the cities and how . President bush ill be glad to take a shot at it. Ms. Simpson please. President bush im not sure that and i can understand if you havent seen this, because theres been a lot of hue and cry. We passed the most furthest looking transportation bill in the history of this country since eisenhower started the interstate highways 150 billion for improving the infrastructure. That happened when i was president. And so im very proud of the way that came about and i think its a very, very good beginning. Like mr. Perot, i am concerned about the deficits and 150 billion is a lot of money, but its awful hard to say were going to go out and spend more money when were trying to get the deficit down. But i would cite that as a major accomplishment. We hear all the negatives. When youre president you expect this. Everybodys running against the incumbent. They can do better. Everyone knows that. But heres something that we can take great pride in because it really does get to what youre talking about. Our Home Initiative our Home Ownership initiative hope that passed the congress is a good start for having people own their own homes instead of living in these deadly tenements. Our enterprise zones, that we hear a lot of lip service about in congress, would bring jobs into the inner city. Theres a good program. And i need the help of everybody across this country to get it passed in a substantial way by the congress. When we went out to South Central in los angeles some of you may remember the riots there. I went out there. I went to a boys club. And everyone of them the boys club leaders, the ministers all of them were saying pass enterprise zones. We go back to washington and very difficult to get it through the congress. But theres going to be a new congress. No one likes gridlock. Theres going to be a new congress because the old one i dont want to get this man made at me but there was a post Office Scandal and a bank scandal. Youre going to have a lot of new members of congress. And then you can sit down and say, help me do what we should for the cities. Help me pass these programs. Ms. Simpson mr. President , arent you threatening to veto the bill the urban aid bill that included enterprise zones . President bush sure, but the problem is, you get so many things included in a great big bill that you have to look at the overall good. Thats the problem with our system. If you had a line item veto you could knock out the pork. You could knock out the tax increases and you could do what the people want, and thats create enterprise zones. Ms. Simpson governor clinton, youre chomping at the bit. Governor clinton that bill pays for these urban enterprise zones by asking the wealthiest americans to pay a little more. And thats why he wants to veto it, just like he vetoed an earlier bill this year. This is not mud slinging. This is fact slinging a bill earlier this year. This is facts that would have given investment tax credits and other incentives to reinvest in our cities, in our country. But it asked the wealthiest americans to pay a little more. Mr. Perot wants to do the same thing. I agree with him. I mean, we agree with that. But let me tell you specifically what my plan does. My plan would dedicate 20 billion a year in each of the next 4 years for investments in new transportation, communications, environmental cleanups and new technologies for the 21st century. And we would target it especially in areas that have been either depressed or which have lost a lot of defense related jobs. There are 200,000 people in california, for example, who have lost their defense related jobs. They ought to be engaged in making high speed rail. They ought to be engaged in breaking ground in other technologies, doing waste recycling, Clean Water Technology and things of that kind. We can create millions of jobs in these new technologies more than were going to lost in defense if we target it. But were investing a much smaller percentage of our income in the things you just asked about than all of our major competitors, and our wealth growth is going down as a result of it. Its making the country poorer, which is why i answered the gentleman the way i did before. We have to both bring down the deficit and get our economy through these kinds of investments in order to get the kind of wealth and jobs and incomes we need in america. Ms. Simpson mr. Perot, what about your plans for the cities . You want to tackle the economy and the deficit first. Mr. Perot first youve got to have money to pay for these things. So youve got to create jobs. There are all kinds of ways to create jobs in the inner city. Im not a politician, but i think i could go to washington in a week and get Everybody Holding hands and get this bill signed because i talk to the Democratic Leaders and they want it. I talk to the Republican Leaders and they want it. But since theyre bred from childhood to fight with one another rather than get results, you know, i would be glad to drop out and spend a little time and see if we couldnt build some bridges. Now, results is what counts. The president cant Order Congress around. Congress cant order the president around. Thats not bad for a guy thats never been there, right . But you have to Work Together. Now, i have talked to the chairmen of the committees that want this. Theyre democrats. The president wants it, but we cant get it because we sit here in gridlock because its a campaign year. We didnt fund a lot of other things this year, like the savings and loan mess. Thats another story that were going to pay a big price for right after the election. The facts are though the facts are the American People are hurting. These people are hurting in the inner cities. Were shipping the quote, low paying jobs overseas. What are low paying jobs . Textiles, shoes, things like that that we say are yesterdays industries. Theyre tomorrows industries in the inner cities. Let me say in my case, if im out of work, ill cut grass tomorrow to take care of my family ill be happy to make shoes, ill be happy to make clothing, ill make sausage. You just give me a job. Put those jobs in the inner cities instead of doing diplomatic deals and shipping them to china where prison labor does the work. Ms. Simpson mr. Perot, everybody thought you won the first debate because you were plainspeaking and you made it sound, oh, so simple. Well, just do it. What makes you think that youre going to be able to get the democrats and republicans together any better than these guys . Mr. Perot if you ask me if i could fly a fighter plane or be an astronaut, i cant. Ive spent my life creating jobs. Thats something i know how to do. And, very simply, in the inner city, theyre starved you see, Small Business is the way to jump start the inner city, not ms. Simpson are you answering my question . Mr. Perot you want jobs in the inner city . Do you want jobs in the inner city . Is that your question . Ms. Simpson no, i want you to tell me how youre going to be able to get the republicans and democrats in congress to Work Together better than these two gentlemen. Mr. Perot oh, im sorry. Well, ive listened to both sides, and if they would talk to one another instead of throwing rocks, i think we could get a lot done. And, among other things, i would say, okay, over here in this Senate Committee to the chairman who is anxious to get this bill passed, the president who is anxious, id say rather than just yelling at one another, why dont we find out where were apart, try to get together, get the bill passed and give the people the benefits and not play Party Politics right now. And i think the press would follow that so closely that probably they would get it done. Thats the way i would do it. I doubt if theyll give me the chance, but i will drop everything and go work on it. Ms. Simpson okay, i have a question here. My question was originally for governor clinton, but i think i would welcome a response from all three candidates. As you are aware, crime is rampant in our cities. And in the richmond area and im sure its happened elsewhere 12yearolds are carrying guns to school. And im sure when our Founding Fathers wrote the constitution they did not mean for the right to bear arms to apply to 12yearolds. So im asking where do you stand on gun control, and what do you plan to do about it . Ms. Simpson governor clinton . Governor clinton i support the right to keep and bear arms. I live in a state where over half the adults have hunting or fishing licenses, or both. But i believe we have to have some way of checking hand guns before theyre sold, to check the criminal history, the Mental Health history, and the age of people who are buying them. Therefore i support the brady bill which would impose a national waiting period unless and until a state did what only virginia has done now, which is to automate its records. Once you automate your records, then you dont have to have a waiting period, but at least you can check. I also think we should have frankly restrictions on assault weapons whose only purpose is to kill. We need to give the police a fighting chance in our urban areas where the gangs are building up. The third thing i would say it doesnt bear directly on gun control, but its very important we need more police on the street. There is a crime bill which would put more police on the street, which was killed for this session by a filibuster in the senate, mostly be republican senators, and i think its a shame it didnt pass, i think it should be made the law but it had the brady bill in it, the waiting period. I also believe that we should offer College Scholarships to people who will agree to work them off as Police Officers, and i think, as we reduce our military forces, we should let people earn military retirement by coming out and working as Police Officers. Thirty years ago there were three Police Officers on the street for every crime today there are three crimes for every police officer. In the communities which have had real success putting Police Officers near schools where kids carry weapons, to get the weapons out of the schools, are on the same blocks, youve seen crime go down. In houston theres been a 15 percent drop in the crime rate in the last year because of the work the mayor did there in increasing the police force. So i know it can work ive seen it happen. Ms. Simpson thank you. President bush . President bush i think you put your finger on a major problem. I talk about strengthening the American Family and its very hard to strengthen the family if people are scared to walk down to the corner store and, you know, send their kid down to get a loaf of bread. Its very hard. I have been fighting for very strong anticrime legislation habeas corpus reform, so you dont have these endless appeals, so when somebody gets sentenced, hey, this is for real. Ive been fighting for changes in the exclusionary rule so if an honest cop stops somebody and makes a technical mistake, the criminal doesnt go away. Ill probably get into a fight in this room with some but i happen to think that we need stronger death penalties for those that kill Police Officers. Virginias in the lead in this, as governor clinton properly said, on this Identification System for firearms. I am not for National Registration of firearms. Some of the states that have the toughest antigun laws have the highest levels of crime. I am for the right, as the governor says im a sportsman and i dont think you ought to eliminate all kinds of weapons. But i was not for the bill that he was talking about because it was not tough enough on the criminal. Im very pleased that the fraternal order of police in little rock, arkansas endorsed me because i think they see im trying to strengthen the anticrime legislation. Weve got more money going out for local police than any previous administration. So weve got to get it under control and theres one last point id make. Drugs. We have got to win our National Strategy against drugs, the fight against drugs. And were making some progress, doing a little better on interdiction. Were not doing as well amongst the people that get to be habitual drugusers. The good news is, and i think its true in richmond, teenage use is down of cocaine, substantially, 60 in the last couple of years. So were making progress but until we get that one done, were not going to solve the neighborhood crime problem. Ms. Simpson mr. Perot, there are young black males in america dying at unprecedented rates mr. Perot i didnt get to make a comment on this. Ms. Simpson yes, im getting to that. Mr. Perot oh, youre going to let me. Excuse me. Ms. Simpson the fact that homicide is the leading cause of death among young black males 15 to 24 years old. What are you going to do to get the guns off the street . Mr. Perot on any program, and this includes crime, youll find we have all kinds of great plans lying around that never get enacted into law and implemented. I dont care what it is competitiveness, health care, crime, you name it. Brady bill, i agree that its a timid step in the right direction but it wont fix it. So why pass a law that wont fix it . Now, what it really boils down to is can you live we become so preoccupied with the rights of the criminal that weve forgotten the rights of the innocent. And in our country we have evolved to a point where weve put millions of innocent people in jail because you go to the poor neighborhoods and theyve put bars on their windows and bars on their doors and put themselves in jail to protect the things that they acquired legitimately. Thats where we are. We have got to become more concerned about people who play by the rules and get the balance we require. This is going to take first, building a consensus at grassroots america. Right from the bottom up, the American People have got to say they want it. And at that point, we can pick from a variety of plans and develop new plans. And the way you get things done is bury yourselves in the room with one another, put together the best program, take it to the American People, use the electronic town hall, the kind of thing youre doing here tonight, build a consensus and then do it and then go on to the next one. But dont just sit here slow dancing for 4 years doing nothing. Ms. Simpson thank you. Thank you, mr. Perot. We have a question up here. Please state your position on term limits, and, if you are in favor of them, how will you get them enacted . President bush any order . Ill be glad to respond. Ms. Simpson thank you. President bush i strongly support term limits for members of the us congress. I believe it would return the government closer to the people, the way that ross perot is talking about. The president s terms are limited to 2, a total of 8 years. Whats wrong with limiting the terms of members of congress to 12 . Congress has gotten kind of institutionalized. For 38 years one party has controlled the house of representatives, and the result, a sorry Little Post Office that cant do anything right and a bank that has more overdrafts than all the chase bank and citibank put together. Weve got to do something about it. And i think you get a certain arrogance, bureaucratic arrogance, if people stay there too long. And so i favor, strongly favor, term limits. And how to get them passed . Send us some people that will pass the idea. And i think you will. I think the American People want it now. Every place i go i talk about it, and i think they want it done. Actually, youd have to have some amendments to the constitution because of the way the constitution reads. Ms. Simpson thank you. Governor clinton. Governor clinton i know theyre popular, but im against them. Ill tell you why. I believe, number one, it would pose a real problem for a lot of smaller states in the congress who have enough trouble now making sure their interests are heard. Number 2, i think it would increase the influence of unelected Staff Members in the congress who have too much influence already. I want to cut the size of the congressional staffs, but i think youre going to have too much influence there with people who were never elected, who have lots of expertise. Number 3, if the people really have a mind to change, they can. Youre going to have 120 to 150 new members of congress. Now, let me tell you what i favor instead. I favor strict controls on how much you can spend running for congress, strict limits on Political Action committees, requirements that people running for congress appear in open public debates like were doing now. If you did that you could take away the incumbents advantage because challengers like me would have a chance to run against incumbents like him for house races and senate races, and then the voters could make up their own mind without being subject to an unfair fight. So thats how i feel about it, and i think if we had the right kind of campaign reform, wed get the changes you want. Ms. Simpson mr. Perot, would you like to address term limitations . Mr. Perot yes. Let me do first on a personal level. If the American People send me up to do this job, i intend to be there one term. I do not intend to spend one minute of one day thinking about reelection. And as a matter of principle and my situation is unique, and i understand it i would take absolutely no compensation i go as their servant. Now, i have set as strong an example as i can, then at that point when we sit down over at capitol hill tomorrow night im going to be talking about government reform its a long subject, you wouldnt let me finish tonight. If you want to hear it, you get it tomorrow night youll hear it tomorrow night. But we have got to reform government. If you put term limits in and dont reform government, you wont get the benefits you thought. It takes both. So we need to do the reforms and the term limits. And after we reform it, it wont be a lifetime Career Opportunity good people will go serve and then go back to their homes and not become foreign lobbyists and cash in at 30,000 bucks a month and then take time off to run some president s campaign. Theyre all nice people, theyre just in a bad system. I dont think there are any villains, but, boy, is the system rotten. Ms. Simpson thank you very much. We have a question over here. Id like to ask governor clinton, do you attribute the rising costs of health care to the medical profession itself, or do you think the problem lies elsewhere . And what specific proposals do you have to tackle this problem . Governor clinton ive had more people talk to me about their Health Care Problems i guess than anything else, all across america you know, people whove lost their jobs, lost their businesses, had to give up their jobs because of sick children. So let me try to answer you in this way. Lets start with a premise. We spend 30 more of our income than any nation on earth on health care, and yet we insure fewer people. We have 35 Million People without any insurance at all and i see them all the time. A hundred thousand americans a month have lost their Health Insurance just in the last 4 years. So if you analyze where were out of line with other countries, you come up with the following conclusions. Number one, we spend at least 60 billion a year on insurance, administrative cost, bureaucracy, and government regulation that wouldnt be spent in any other nation. So we have to have, in my judgment, a drastic simplification of the basic Health Insurance policies of this country, be very comprehensive for everybody. Employers would cover their employees, government would cover the unemployed. Number 2, i think you have to take on specifically the Insurance Companies and require them to make some significant change in the way they rate people in the Big Community pools. I think you have to tell the pharmaceutical companies they cant keep raising drug prices at three times the rate of inflation. I think you have to take on medical fraud. I think you have to help doctors stop practicing defensive medicine. Ive recommended that our doctors be given a set of National Practice guidelines and that if they follow those guidelines that raises the presumption that they didnt do anything wrong. I think you have to have a system of primary and preventive clinics in our inner cities and our rural areas so people can have access to health care. The key is to control the cost and maintain the quality. To do that you need a system of managed competition where all of us are covered in big groups and we can choose our doctors and our hospitals, a wide range, but there is an incentive to control costs. And i think there has to be i think mr. Perot and i agree on this, there has to be a National Commission of Health Care Providers and Health Care Consumers that set ceilings to keep health costs in line with inflation, plus population growth. Now, let me say, some people say we cant do this but hawaii does it. They cover 98 of their people and their insurance premiums are much cheaper than the rest of america, and so does rochester, new york. They now have a plan to cover everybody and their premiums are twothirds of the rest of the country. This is very important. Its a big human problem and a devastating economic problem for america, and im going to send a plan to do this within the first 100 days of my presidency. Its terribly important. Ms. Simpson thank you. Sorry to cut you short but president bush, health care reform. President bush i just have to say something. I dont want to stampede. Ross was very articulate across the country. I dont want anybody to stampede to cut the president s salary off altogether. Barbaras sitting over here and i but what i have proposed, 10 cut, downsize the government, and we can get that done. She asked a question, i think, is whether the Health Care Profession was to blame. No. One thing to blame is these malpractice lawsuits. Theyre breaking the system. It costs 2025 billion a year, and i want to see those outrageous claims capped. Doctors dont dare to deliver babies sometimes because theyre afraid that somebodys going to sue them. People dont dare medical practitioners, to help somebody along the highway that are hurt because theyre afraid that some lawyers going to come along and get a big lawsuit. So you cant blame the practitioners for the health problem. And my program is this. Keep the government as far out of it as possible, make insurance available to the poorest of the poor, through vouchers, next range in the income bracket, through tax credits, and get on about the business of pooling insurance. A great big company can buy ross has got a goodsized company, been very successful. He can buy insurance cheaper than mom and pops store on the corner. But if those mom and pop stores all get together and pool, they too can bring the cost of insurance down. So i want to keep the quality of health care. That means keep government out of it. I want to do i dont like this idea of these boards. It all sounds to me like youre going to have some government setting price. I want competition and i want to pool the insurance and take care of it that way and have oh, heres the other point. I think medical care should go with the person. If you leave a business, i think your insurance should go with you to some other business. You shouldnt be worrying if you get a new job as to whether thats gonna and part of our plan is to make it what they call portable big word, but that means if youre working for the Jones Company and you go to the smith company, your insurance goes with you. I think its a good program. Im really excited about getting it done, too. Ms. Simpson mr. Perot. Mr. Perot we have the most Expensive Health care system in the world. Twelve percent of our Gross National product goes to health care. Our industrial competitors, who are beating us in competition, spend less and have Better Health care. Japan spends a little over 6 of its Gross National product. Germany spends 8 . Its fascinating. Youve bought a front row box seat and youre not happy with your health care and youre saying tonight weve got bad health care but very Expensive Health care. Folks, heres why. Go home and look in the mirror. You own this country but you have no voice in it the way its organized now, and if you want to have a high risk experience, comparable to bungee jumping, go into congress some time when theyre working on this kind of legislation, when the lobbyists are running up and down the halls. Wear your safety toe shoes when you go. And as a private citizen, believe me, you are looked on as a major nuisance. The facts are you now have a government that comes at you. Youre supposed to have a government that comes from you. Now, there are all kinds of good ideas, brilliant ideas, terrific ideas on health care. None of them ever get implemented because let me give you an example. A senator runs every 6 years. Hes got to raise 20,000 bucks a week to have enough money to run. Whos he gonna listen to us or the folks running up and down the aisles with money, the lobbyists, the pac money . He listens to them. Who do they represent . Health care industry. Not us. Now, youve got to have a government that comes from you again. Youve got to reassert your ownership in this country and youve got to completely reform our government. And at that point theyll just be like apples falling out of a tree. The programs will be good because the elected officials will be listening to i said the other night i was all ears and i would listen to any good idea. I think we ought to do Plastic Surgery on a lot of these guys so that theyre all ears, too, and listen to you. Then you get what you want, and shouldnt you . You paid for it. Why shouldnt you get what you want, as opposed to what some lobbyist cuts a deal, writes a little piece in the law and he goes through. Thats the way the games played now. Till you change it youre gonna be unhappy. Simpson continuing you wanted one brief point in there. Governor clinton one brief point. We have elections so people can make decisions about this. The point i want to make to you is, a Bipartisan Commission reviewed my plan and the bush plan and there were as many republicans as Democratic Health care experts on it. They concluded that my plan would cover everybody and his would leave 27 million behind by the year 2000 and that my plan in the next 12 years would save 2. 2 trillion in public and private money to reinvest in this economy and the average family would save 1200 a year under the plan that i offered without any erosion in the quality of health care so i ask you to look at that. And you have to vote for somebody with a plan. Thats what you have elections for. If people would say, well, he got elected to do this and then the congress says, okay, im going to do it. Thats what the election was about. Ms. Simpson brief, governor clinton. Thank you. We have a question right here. Yes. How has the National Debt personally affected each of your lives . And if it hasnt, how can you honestly find a cure for the economic problems of the Common People if you have no experience in whats ailing them . Mr. Perot may i answer that . Ms. Simpson well, mr. Perot yes, of course. Mr. Perot who do you want to start with . My question is for each of you, so mr. Perot it caused me to disrupt my private life and my business to get involved in this activity. Thats how much i care about it. And believe me, if you knew my family and if you knew the private life i have, you would agree in a minute that thats a whole lot more fun than getting involved in politics. But i have lived the American Dream. I came from very modest background. Nobodys been luckier than ive been, all the way across the spectrum, and the greatest riches of all are my wife and children. Thats true of any family. But i want all the children i want these young people up here to be able to start with nothing but an idea like i did and build a business. But theyve got to have a strong basic economy and if youre in debt, its like having a ball and chain around you. I just figure, as lucky as ive been, i owe it to them and i owe it to the future generations and on a very personal basis, i owe it to my children and grandchildren. Ms. Simpson thank you, mr. Perot. Mr. President. President bush well, i think the National Debt affects everybody. You personally. President bush obviously it has a lot to do with Interest Rates ms. Simpson shes saying, you personally you, on a personal basis how has it affected you . Ms. Simpson has it affected you personally . President bush im sure it has. I love my grandchildren how . President bush i want to think that theyre going to be able to afford an education. I think that thats an important part of being a parent. If the question maybe i get it wrong. Are you suggesting that if somebody has means that the National Debt doesnt affect them . What im saying is president bush im not sure i get help me with the question and ill try to answer it. Well, ive had friends that have been laid off from jobs. President bush yeah. I know people who cannot afford to pay the mortgage on their homes, their car payment. I have personal problems with the National Debt. But how has it affected you and if you have no experience in it, how can you help us, if you dont know what were feeling . Ms. Simpson i think she means more the recession the economic problems today the country faces rather than the deficit. President bush well, listen, you ought to be in the white house for a day and hear what i hear and see what i see and read the mail i read and touch the people that i touch from time to time. I was in the lomax ame church. Its a black church just outside of washington, dc. And i read in the bulletin about teenage pregnancies, about the difficulties that families are having to make ends meet. I talk to parents. I mean, youve got to care. Everybody cares if people arent doing well. But i dont think its fair to say, you havent had cancer. Therefore, you dont know whats it like. I dont think its fair to say, you know, whatever it is, that if you havent been hit by it personally. But everybodys affected by the debt because of the tremendous interest that goes into paying on that debt everythings more expensive. Everything comes out of your pocket and my pocket. So its that. But i think in terms of the recession, of course you feel it when youre president of the us. And thats why im trying to do something about it by stimulating the export, vesting more, better Education Systems. Thank you. Im glad you clarified it. Ms. Simpson governor clinton. Governor clinton tell me how its affected you again. Um governor clinton you know people whove lost their jobs and lost their homes . Well, yeah, uhhuh. Governor clinton well, ive been governor of a small state for 12 years. Ill tell you how its affected me. Every Year Congress and the president sign laws that make us do more things and gives us less money to do it with. I see people in my state, middle class people their taxes have gone up in washington and their services have gone down while the wealthy have gotten tax cuts. I have seen whats happened in this last 4 years when in my state, when people lose their jobs theres a good chance ill know them by their names. When a factory closes, i know the people who ran it. When the businesses go bankrupt, i know them. And ive been out here for 13 months meeting in meetings just like this ever since october, with people like you all over america, people that have lost their jobs, lost their livelihood, lost their Health Insurance. What i want you to understand is the National Debt is not the only cause of that. It is because america has not invested in its people. It is because we have not grown. It is because weve had 12 years of trickle down economics. Weve gone from first to twelfth in the world in wages. Weve had 4 years where weve produced no private sector jobs. Most people are working harder for less money than they were making ten years ago. It is because we are in the grip of a failed economic theory. And this decision youre about to make better be about what kind of economic theory you want, not just people saying im going to go fix it but what are we going to do . I think we have to do is invest in american jobs, American Education, control American Health care costs and bring the American People together again. Thank you. Ms. Simpson thank you, governor clinton. We are a little more than halfway through this program and im glad were getting the diversity of questions that we are, and i dont want to forget these folks on the wings over here so lets go over here. Do you have a question . Yes, i do. My name is ben smith. I work in the financial field, counseling retirees, and im personally concerned about three major areas. One is the Social Security administration or trust fund is projected to be insolvent by the year 2036. And we funded the trust fund with ious in the form of treasury bonds. The Pension Guarantee Fund, which backs up our private retirement plans for retirees, is projected to be bankrupt by the year 2026, not to mention the cutbacks by private companies. And medicare is projected to be bankrupt maybe as soon as 1997. And i would like from each of you a specific response as to what you intend to do for retirees relative to these issues, not generalities but specifics because i think theyre very disturbing issues. Ms. Simpson president bush, may we start with you . President bush well, the Social Security youre an expert and i could, im sure, learn from you the details of the Pension Guarantee Fund and the Social Security fund. The Social Security system was fixed about 5 years, and i think its projected out to be sound beyond that. So at least we have time to work with it. But on all of these things, a sound economy is the only way to get it going. Growth in the economy is gonna add to the overall prosperity and wealth. I cant give you a specific answer on Pension Guarantee Fund. All i know is that we have Firm Government credit to guarantee the pensions. And that is very important. But its the full faith and credit of the us, in spite of our difficulties, is still pretty good. Its still the most respected credit. So i would simply say, as these dates get close, youre going to have to reorganize and refix as we did with the Social Security fund. And i think thats the only answer. But the more immediate answer is to do what this lady was suggesting we do, and that is to get this deficit down and get on without adding to the woes, and then restructure. One thing ive called for that has been stymied, and ill keep on working for it, is a whole financial reform legislation. It is absolutely essential in terms of bringing our Banking System and Credit System into the new age instead of having it living back in the dark ages. And its a big fight. And i dont want to give my friend ross another shot at me here but i am fighting with the congress to get this through. And you cant just go up and say im going to fix it. Youve got some pretty strongwilled guys up there that argue with you. But thats what the elections about. I agree with the governor. Thats what the elections about. And sound fiscal policy is the best answer, i think, to all the three problems you mentioned. Ms. Simpson thank you. Mr. Perot. Mr. Perot on the broad issue here, when youre trying to solve a problem, you get the best plans. You have a raging debate about those plans. Then out of that debate, with leadership, comes consensus. Then, if the plans are huge and complex like health care, i would urge you to implement Pilot Programs. Like the old carpenter says measure twice, cut once. Lets make sure this things as good as we all think it is at the end of the meeting. Then finally, our government passes laws and freezes the plan in concrete. Anybody thats ever built a successful business will tell you you optimize, optimize, optimize after youve put something into effect. The reason medicare and medicaid are a mess is we froze them. Everybody knows how to fix them. There are people all over the federal government, if they could just touch it with a screwdriver, could fix it. Now, back over here. See, weve got a 4 trillion debt and only in america would you have 2. 8 trillion of it or 70 of it financed 5 years or less. Now, thats another thing for you to think about when you go home tonight. You dont finance longterm debt with shortterm money. Why did our government do it . To get the Interest Rates down. A 1 increase in Interest Rates in that 2. 8 trillion is 28 billion a year. Now, when you look at what germany pays for money and what we dont pay for money, you realize theres quite a spread, right, and you realize this is a temporary thing and theres going to be another sucking sound that runs our deficit through the roof. You know, and everybodys ducking it so im gonna say it, that we are not letting that surplus stay in the bank. We are not investing that surplus like a pension fund. We are spending that surplus to make the deficit look smaller to you than it really is. Now, that put you in jail in Corporate America if you kept books that way but in government its just kind of the way things are. Thats because it comes at you, not from you. Now then, that money needs to be they dont even pay interest on it. They just write a note for the interest. Ms. Simpson mr. Perot, can you wrap it up . Mr. Perot do you want to fix the problem or soundbite it . I understand the importance of time but see, heres how we get to this mess were in. Ms. Simpson but weve got to be fair. Mr. Perot this is just 1 of 1000. Now then, to nail it, theres one way out a growing, expanding job base. A growing, expanding job base to generate the funds and the tax revenues to pay off the mess and rebuild america. Weve got to doublehit. If were 4 trillion down, we should have everything perfect, but we dont. Weve got to pay it off and build money to renew it spend money to renew it, and thats going to take a growing, expanding job base. That is priority one in this country. Put everybody thats breathing to work. And id love to be out of workers and have to import them, like some of our International Competitors. Ms. Simpson mr. Perot, im sorry. Im going to mr. Perot sorry. Ms. Simpson and i dont want to soundbite you but we are trying to be fair mr. Perot okay. Ms. Simpson to everyone. Mr. Perot absolutely. I apologize. Ms. Simpson all right. Governor clinton. Governor clinton i think i remember the question. laughter. let me say first of all, i want to answer your specific question but first of all, we all agree that there should be a growing economy. What you have to decide is whos got the best economic plan. And we all have ideas out there, and mr. Bush has a record. So i dont want you to read my lips and i sure dont want you to read his. I do hope you will read our plans. Now, specifically, one, on medicare, it is not true that everyone knows how to fix it. There are different ideas the bush plan, the perot plan, the clinton we have different ideas. I am convinced, having studied health care for a year hard and talking to hundreds and hundreds of people all across america, that you cannot control the cost of medicare until you control the cost of private health care and Public Health care, with managed competition, ceiling on cost, and radical reorganization of the insurance markets. Youve got to do that we got to get those costs down. Number 2, with regard to Social Security, that program a lot of you may not know this it produces a 70 billion surplus a year. Social security is in surplus 70 billion. Six increases in the payroll tax that means people with incomes of 51,000 a year or less pay a disproportionally high share of the federal tax burden, which is why i want some middleclass tax relief. What do we have to do . By the time the century turns, we have got to have our deficit under control, we have to work out of so that surplus is building up so when the baby boomers like me retire, were okay. Number 3, on the pension funds, i dont know as much about it, but i will say this. What i would do is to bring in the pension experts of the country, take a look at it, and strengthen the pension requirements further, because its not just enough to have the guarantee. We had a guarantee on the s ls, right . We had a guarantee and what happened . You picked up a 500billion bill because of the dumb way the federal government deregulated it. So i think we are going to have to change and strengthen the pension requirements on private retirement plans. Ms. Simpson thank you. I think we have a question here on international affairs, hopefully. Weve come to a position where were in the new world order, and id like to know what the candidates feel our position is in this new world order, and what our responsibilities are as a superpower . Ms. Simpson mr. President. President bush well, we have come to that position. Since i became president , 43, 44 countries have gone democratic, no longer totalitarian, no longer living under dictatorship or communist rule. This is exciting. New world order to me means freedom and democracy. I think we will have a continuing responsibility, as the only remaining superpower, to stay involved. If we pull back in some isolation and say we dont have to do our share, or more than our share, anymore, i believe you are going to just ask for conflagration that well get involved in the future. Nato, for example, has kept the peace for many, many years, and i want to see us keep fully staffed in nato so well continue to guarantee the peace in europe. But the exciting thing is, the fear of nuclear war is down. And you hear all the bad stuff thats happened on my watch i hope people will recognize that this is something pretty good for mankind. I hope theyll think its good that democracy and freedom is on the move. And were going to stay engaged, as long as im president , working to improve things. You know, its so easy now to say, hey, cut out foreign aid, we got a problem at home. I think the us has to still have the statue of liberty as a symbol, caring for others. Right this very minute were sending supplies in to help these little starving kids in somalia. Its the us thats taken the lead in humanitarian aid into bosnia. Were doing this all around the world. Yes, we got problems at home. And i think i got a good plan to help fix those problems at home. But because of our leadership, because we didnt listen to the freeze the nuclearfreeze group, do you remember freeze it, back in the late 70s freeze, dont touch it were going to lock it in now or else well have war. President reagan said no, peace through strength. It worked. The soviet union is no more, and now were working to help them become totally democratic through the freedom support act that i led on, a great democratic ambassador, bob strauss, over there, jim baker, all of us got this thing passed through cooperation, ross it worked with cooperation, and youre for that, im sure, helping russia become democratic. So the new world order to me engaged, doom and democracy,keeg not go back into isolation, and we are the united dates United States and we have a responsibility to lead insecurity. Us, saddamt for hussein would be sitting on top of 3 5 of the oil in the world and hed have Nuclear Weapons. Perot pennies on the dollar compared to going back to the cold war. Russia is still very unstable. A could go back to square one and worse. All Nuclear Weapons are not dismantled. I am concerned about the intercontinental weapons. Weve got agreements, but they are still there. With all of this instability, all the middle eastern countries, we have our work cut of cut out for us. We need to constructively move toward democracy and capitalism. We need to have money to do that. Were5 years, we preoccupied with the red army. Numberst that now our one preoccupation is ready can our country. We cannot be the policeman for the world any longer. We spent 300 million a year 300 billion a year defending the world. If we are not economic superpower, we will no longer be forced for good around the world. If nothing else gets you excited about rebuilding our industrial base, maybe that will. Clinton, the Vice President mentioned saddam hussein. Would you care to comment . Clinton the question you asked is important. The end of the cold war brings an Incredible Opportunity for change good the winds of freedom blowing around the world, the militarizing. Us maintainings some continuity some bipartisan american commitment to certain principles. And i would just say there are three things that i would like to say number one we do have to maintain the worlds strongest defense. We may differ about what the elements of that are. I think that defense needs to be with fewer people in Permanent Armed services but with greater mobility on the land, in the air and on the sea, with a real dedication to continuing development of High Technology weaponry and well trained people. Continuing development of High Technology weaponry and well trained people. I think were going to have to work to stop the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction. Got to keep going until all those Nuclear Weapons in russia are gone and the other republics. Number 2, if you dont rebuild the economic strength of this country at home, we wont be a superpower. We cant have any more instances like what happened when mr. Bush went to japan and the japanese Prime Minister said he felt sympathy for our country. We have to be the strongest economic power in the world. Thats what got me into this race, so we could rebuild the american economy. And number three, we need to be a force for freedom and democracy and we need to use our unique position to support freedom, whether its in haiti or in china or in any other place, wherever the seeds of freedom are sprouting. We cant impose it, but we need to nourish it and thats the kind of thing that i would do as president follow those three commitments into the future. Ms. Simpson okay. We have a question up there. Yes. Weve talked a lot tonight about creating jobs. But we have an awful lot of High School Graduates who dont know how to read a ruler, who cannot fill out an application for a job. How can we create high paying jobs with the Education System we have and what would you do to change it . Ms. Simpson who would like to begin the education president . Mr. Perot go ahead, sir. Yeah, go ahead. President bush id be delighted to, because you cant do it the old way. You cant do it with the School Bureaucracy controlling everything and thats why we have a new program that i hope people have heard about. Its being worked now in 1700 communities bypassed congress on this one, ross 1700 communities across the country. Its called america 2000. And it literally says to the communities, reinvent the schools, not just the bricks and mortar but the curriculum and everything else. Think anew. We have a concept called the new American School corporation where were doing exactly that. And so i believe that weve got to get the power in the hands of the teachers, not the teachers union. Whats happening up there . laughter and so our america 2000 program also says this. It says lets give parents the choice of a public, private or Public School public, private or religious school. And it works it works in milwaukee. Democratic woman up there taking the lead in this. The mayor up there, on the program. And the schools that are not chosen are improved competition does that. So weve got to innovate through School Choice. Weve got to innovate through this america 2000 program. But she is absolutely right. The programs that weve been trying where you control everything and mandate it from washington dont work. The governors and i believe governor clinton was in on this but maybe i dont want to invoke him here. But they come to me and they say, please get the congress to stop passing so many mandates telling us how to control things. We know better how to do it in california or texas or wherever it is. So this is what our program is all about. And i believe youre right on to something, that if we dont change the education were not going to be able to compete. Federal funding for education is up substantially pell grants are up. But it isnt going to get the job done if we dont change k through 12. Ms. Simpson governor clinton. Governor clinton first of all, let me say that ive spent more of my time and life on this in the last 12 years than any other issue. Seventy percent of my states money goes to the Public Schools, and i was really honored when Time Magazine said that our schools have shown more improvement than any other state in the country except one other they named 2 states showing real strides forward in the 80s. So i care a lot about this, and ive spent countless hours in schools. But let me start with what you said. I agree with some of what mr. Bush said, but its nowhere near enough. We live in a world depends on what you can learn, where the average 18 yearold will change jobs 8 times in a lifetime and where none of us can promise any of you that what you now do for a living is absolutely safe from now on. Nobody running can promise that, theres too much change in the world. So what should we do . Let me reel some things off real quick, because you said you wanted specifics. Number one, under my program we would provide matching funds to states to teach everybody with a job to read in the next 5 years and give everybody with a job the chance to get a high school diploma, in big places on the job. Number 2, we would provide 2year apprenticeship programs to High School Graduates who dont go to college. And Community Colleges are on the job. Number three, wed open the doors to College Education to High School Graduates without regard to income. They could borrow the money and pay it back as a percentage of their income or with a couple of years of service to our nation here at home. Number 4, we would fully fund the Head Start Program to get little kids off to a good start. And, 5, i would have an Aggressive Program of school reform, more choices i favor Public Schools or these new Charter Schools we can talk about that if you want. I dont think we should spend tax money on private schools. But i favor Public School choice, and i favor radical decentralization in giving more power to bettertrained principals and teachers with Parent Councils to control their schools. Those things would revolutionize American Education and take us to the top economically. Ms. Simpson thank you. What are they going to cost . Ms. Simpson the question is, what is it going to cost . What is it going to cost . Governor clinton in 6 years i budget all this in my budget, and in 6 years the College Program would cost 8 billion dollars over and above what the present Student Loan Program costs 4; you pay 3 billion dollars for busted loans, because we dont have an automatic recovery system, and a billion dollars in bank fees. So the net cost would be 8 billion 6 years from now in a trillionplus budget not very much. The other stuff all the other stuff i mentioned costs much less than that. The Head Start Program full funding would cost about 5 billion more. And its all covered in my budget from the plans that ive laid out from raising taxes on families with incomes above 200,000 and asking Foreign Corporations to pay the same tax that american corporations do on the same income, from 140 billion in budget cuts, including what i think are very prudent cuts in the defense budget. Its all covered in the plan. Ms. Simpson thank you. Mr. Perot, you on education, please. Mr. Perot yes, ive got scars to show for being around education reform. And the first word you need to say in every city and state, and just draw a line in the sand, is Public Schools exist for the benefit of the children. Youre going to see a lot of people fall over it, because any time youre spending 199 billion dollars a year, somebodys getting it. And the children get lost in the process. So thats step one. Keep in mind in 1960, when our schools were the envy of the world, we were spending 16 billion on them; now we spend more than any other nation in the world 199 billion a year and rank at the bottom of the industrialized world in terms of education achievement. One more time youve bought a frontrow box seat and got a thirdrate performance. This is a government that is not serving you. By and large it should be local the more local, the better. Interesting phenomenon small towns have good schools, big cities have terrible schools. The best people in a small town will serve on the school board; you get into big cities, its political patronage, stepping stones you get the job, give your relatives a janitors job at 57,000 a year, more than the teachers make, and with luck they clean the cafeteria once a week. Now, youre paying for that. Those schools belong to you. And we put up with that. Now, as long as we put up with that, thats what youre going to get. And these folks are just dividing up 199 billion bucks and the children get lost. If i could wish for one thing for great Public Schools, it would be a Strong Family unit in every home nothing will ever replace that. You say, well, gee, what are you going to do about that . Well, the white house is a bully pulpit, and i think we ought to be pounding on the table every day. Theres nothing the most efficient unit of government the world will ever know is a strong loving family unit. Next thing. You need small schools, not big schools. In a Little School everybody is somebody; individualism is very important. These big factories . Everybody told me they were costeffective. I did a study on it; theyre cost ineffective. 5000 students why is a high school that big . One reason. Sooner or later you get 11 more boys that can run like the devil that weigh 250 pounds and they might win district. Now, that has nothing to do with learning. Secondly, across texas, typically half of the school day was nonacademic pursuits in one place it was 35 . In texas you could have unlimited absences to go to livestock shows. Found a boy excuse me, but this gives the flavor a boy in houston kept a chicken in the bathtub in downtown houston and missed 65 days going to livestock shows. Finally had to come back to school, the chicken lost its feathers. Thats the only way we got him back. Now, thats your tax money being wasted. Now, neighborhood schools. It is terrible to bus tiny little children across town. And it is particularly terrible to take poor tiny little children and wait until the first grade and bus them across town to mars, where the children know their numbers, know their letters, have had every advantage. At the end of the first day, that little child wants out. Ill close on this. Youve got to have world class teachers, world class books. If you ever got close to how textbooks were selected, you wouldnt want to go back the second day. I dont have time to tell you the stories. Ms. Simpson no, you dont. Mr. Perot finally, if we dont fix this, youre right. We cant have the industries of tomorrow unless we have the best educated workforce. And here youve got, for the disadvantaged children, youve got to have Early Childhood development. Cheapest money youll ever spend. First contact should be with the money when shes pregnant. That little child needs to be loved and hugged and nurtured and made to feel special, like your children were. They learn to think well or poorly of themselves in the first 18 months. Ms. Simpson thank you. Thank you, mr. Perot. Mr. Perot and in the first few years they either learn how to learn or dont learn how to learn. And if they dont, they wind up in prison. Ms. Simpson thank you, mr. Perot. Mr. Perot and it costs more to keep them in prison than it does to send them to harvard. I rest my case. Ms. Simpson thank you. President bush, you wanted to answer. President bush i just had a word of clarification because of something governor clinton said. My School Choice program, gi bill for kids, does not take public money and give it to private schools. It does what the gi bill itself did when i came out of world war ii. It takes public money and gives it to families or individuals to choose the school they want. And where its been done, those schools, like in rochester, those schools that werent chosen find that they then compete and do better. So i think its worth a shot. Weve got a Pilot Program. It ought to be tried. School choice public, private or religious. Not to the schools but to you know, 46 of the teachers in chicago, Public School teachers, send their kids to private school. Now, i think we ought to try to help families and see if it will do what i think make all schools better. Governor clinton i just want to mention if i could ms. Simpson very briefly. Governor clinton very briefly. The parents in the preschool education of their kids, even if theyre poor and uneducated, can make a huge difference. We have a big program in my state that teaches mothers or fathers to teach their kids to get ready for school. Its the most successful thing weve ever done. Just a fact clarification real quickly. We do not spend a higher percentage of our income on Public Education than every other country. There are 9 countries that spend more than we do on Public Education. We spend more on education cause we spend so much more on colleges. But if you look at Public Education alone and you take into account the fact that we have more racial diversity and more poverty, it makes a big difference. There are great Public Schools where theres Public School choice, accountability and brilliant principals. Ill just mention one the Beasley Academic Center in chicago. I commend it to anybody. Its as good as any private school in the country. Ms. Simpson we have very little time left and it occurs to me that we have talked all this time and there has not been one question about some of the racial tensions and ethnic tensions in america. Is there anyone in this audience that would like to pose a question to the candidates on this . What id like to know, and this is to any of the three of you, is aside from the recent accomplishment of your party, aside from those accomplishments in racial representation, and without citing any of your current appointments or successful elections, when do you estimate your party will both nominate and elect an afroamerican and female ticket to the presidency of the u. S. . Ms. Simpson governor clinton, why dont you answer that first . Governor clinton well, i dont have any idea but i hope it will happen some time in my lifetime. I do, too. Governor clinton i believe that this country is electing more and more African Americans and latinos and Asian Americans who are representing districts that are themselves not necessarily of a majority of their race. The American People are beginning to vote across racial lines, and i hope it will happen more and more. More and more women are being elected. Look at all these women Senate Candidates we have here. And you know, according to my mother and my wife and my daughter, this world would be a lot better place if women were running it most of the time. I do think there are special experiences and judgments and backgrounds and understandings that women bring to this process, by the way. This lady said here, how have you been affected by the economy. I mean, women know whats it like to be paid an unequal amount for equal work. They know what its like not to have Flexible Working hours. They know what its like not to have family leave or childcare. So i think it would be a good thing for america if it happened. And i think it will happen in my lifetime. Ms. Simpson okay. Im sorry. We have just a little bit of time left. Lets try to get responses from each of them. President bush or mr. Perot . President bush i think if barbara bush were running this year shed be elected. But its too late. laughter you dont want us to mention appointees, but when you see the quality of people in our administration, see how colin powell performed i say administration inaudible . President bush you werent impressed with the fact that he excuse me. Im extremely impressed with that. President bush yeah, but wouldnt that suggest to the American People, then, heres a quality person, if he decided that he could automatically get the nomination of either party . Sure i just wanted to know yes. President bush huh . Im totally impressed with that. I just wanted to know is, whens your president bush oh, i see. When . President bush i dont know starting after 4 years. Ms. Simpson mr. Perot. President bush i think youll see more minority candidates and women candidates coming forward. Ms. Simpson we have thank you. President bush this is supposed to be the year of the women in the senate. Lets see how they do. I hope a lot of ms. Simpson mr. Perot i dont want to cut you off any more but we only have a minute left. Mr. Perot i have a fearless forecast. A message just wont do it. Colin powell will be on somebodys ticket 4 years from now right . Right . He wanted that said 4 years. Ms. Simpson how about a woman . Mr. Perot now, if wont be, general waller would be you say, why do you keep picking military people. These are people that i just happen to know and have a high regard for. Im sure there are hundreds of others. President bush how about dr. Lou sullivan . Mr. Perot absolutely. President bush yeah, a good man. Ms. Simpson what about a woman . Mr. Perot oh, oh. President bush inaudible totally agree. My candidates back there. Ms. Simpson laughs mr. Perot okay. I can think of many. Ms. Simpson many . Mr. Perot absolutely. How about Sandra Day Oconnor as an example . President bush all good republicans. Ms. Simpson thank you. I want to apologize to our audience because there were 209 people here and there were 209 questions. We only got to a fraction of them and im sorry to those of you that didnt get to ask your questions but we must move to the conclusion of the program. It is time now for the 2 minute closing statements and by prior agreement president bush will go first. President bush may i ask for an exception because i think we owe Carole Simpson anybody who can stand in between these three characters here and get the job done we owe her a round of applause. applause but dont take it out of my time applause ms. Simpson thats right. President bush i feel strongly about it because i dont want it to come out of my time. Ms. Simpson give this man more time. President bush no, but let me just stay to the American People in 2 and a half weeks were going to choose who should sit in this oval office, who to lead the economic recovery, who to be the leader of the free world, who to get the deficit down. Three ways to do that. One is to raise taxes. One is to reduce spending controlling that mandatory spending. Another one is to invest and save and to stimulate growth. I do not want to raise taxes. I differ with the 2 here on that. Im just not going to do that. I do believe that we need to control mandatory spending. I think we need to invest and save more. I believe that we need to educate better and retrain better. I believe that we need to export more so ill keep working for export agreements where we can sell more abroad and i believe that we must strengthen the family. Weve got to strengthen the family. Now, let me pose this question to america. If in the next 5 minutes a Television Announcer came on and said, there is a Major International crisis there is a major threat to the world or in this country a major threat my question is, who, if you were appointed to name 1 of the 3 of us, who would you choose . Who has the perseverance, the character, the integrity, the maturity, to get the job done . I hope im that person. Thank you very, very much. Ms. Simpson thank you, mr. President. And now a closing statement from mr. Perot. Mr. Perot if the American People want to do it and not talk about it, then they ought to you know, im one person they ought to consider. If they just want to keep slow dancing and talk about it and not do it, im not your name. I am results oriented. I am action oriented. Ive dealt my businesses. Getting things done in three months that my competitors took 18 months to do. Everybody says you cant do that with congress. Sure, you can do that with congress. Congress theyre all good people. Theyre all patriots but youve got to link arms and work with them. Sure, youll have arguments. Sure, youll have fights. We have them all day every day. But we get the job done. Now, i have to come back in my clothes to one thing because i am passionate about education. I was talking about Early Childhood education for disadvantaged little children. And let me tell you one specific Pilot Program where children who dont have a chance go to this program when theyre 3. Now were going back to when the mothers pregnant and theyll start right after theyre born. Starting when theyre 3 and going to this school until theyre 9 and then going into the Public School in the 4th grade. Ninety percent are on the honor role. Now that will change america. Those children will all go to college. They will live the American Dream. And i beg the American People, any time they think about reforming education to take this piece of society that doesnt have a chance and take these little pieces of clay that can be shaped and molded and give them the same love and nurture and affection and support you give your children and teach them that theyre unique and that theyre precious and that theres only one person in the world like them and you will see this nation bloom. And we will have so many people who are qualified for the top job that it will be terrific. If you dont want to be put people back to work, i am not your man. Just remember when you think about me, i did not create this mess, i have been paying taxes like you. Over 1 billion in taxes. It is in your hands, i wish you well. I will see you tomorrow night on nbc. [laughter] least, governor clinton. Thank you, ladies and gentlemen. Since i suggested this format, i hope it has been good for all of you. I hope we have been faithful to you. Here and you for being for the impact you had in making this a more positive experience. These problems will not be solved overnight, but i want you to think of two or three things. The people of my states have let me be the governor for 12 years because i make commitments to more jobs and better schools. Our children get off to a better start. We have one of the most aggressive Adult Education programs in the country. This year, my state ranks first in the country in job growth, fourth in income growth, fourth in the decline of poverty. , it happened that because i can work with people, republicans and democrats. Ive had many people support this campaign. You have to decide whether you want to change or not. We not need four more years of an economic theory that does not work. It is time to put the American People first tin