>> we've heard the phrase death by 1,000 lashes. that's basically what this was. >> lydia's parents pleaded guilty and were sent to prison. michael pearl the man whose teachings they follow is spreading his goss pel through a popular christian book "to train a child." the pearls wrote it as a blueprint for raising children they say the way the bible commands. >> it says that if you spare the rod, you hate your child. but if you love him, you chasten him timely. >> the pearls say they're not to blame for what the family did, but spare the rod, spoil the child is a message that many fundamentalist christians and preachers embrace. you'll hear from some of them tonight. you'll hear from a woman whose parents followed the treatment when she was growing up. she calls it abuse. >> this is systemic form of brainwashing these children. >> our investigation led us to a corner of christian fundamentalism that operates almost entirely beyond the reach of authority. fundamentalist baptist homes for troubled teens. they say they help character and found wayward young christians found their way back to god. >> they bodily man hadled me to the floor. and he hit me with a board as hard as he could. and i was shocked. i had been paddled my whole life. i've never been hit like that. >> i have nightmares about it all the time. very vivid dreams like i'm trapped inside this house again and i can't get out. >> accusations of abuse both physical and emotional all inflicted in the name of god. you'll hear their stories ahead. you'll hear from the pastor who runs the home. >> we've had a lot of people complain that there's abuse at your house. can you give us a comment about that. >> >> well, i would rather not. >> he wasn't happy to see us. he did answer some of our questions. that's ahead. we begin with a case that's put a popular book on the defensive. it's a book familiar to many fundamentalist christians who rely on their teachings to help raise their kids. until now it didn't get much attention outside those circles now that's changing now that a little girl has died. here's part one of the report. the small town of paradise, california, where these children lived with their parents in a fundamentalist christian home for the nine children life in paradise was anything but. we covered up eight of their faces because they are the survivors. survivors of a violent form of discipline practiced by their parents kevin and elizabeth shots. the one face not covered is their 7-year-old adopted daughter lydia, she was killed by her parents. mike ramsey is the district attorney of buick county in northern california. >> we've heard of the phrase death by 1,000 lashes. that's basically what this was. >> this is where the family used to live. the children's sand box is still here so is their slide. and their tree house. but the surviving children are now in foster homes and the parents are in prison. >> violated section 273-a. >> they pleaded guilty to killing lydia and seriously injuring her 11-year-old sister who almost died. >> authorities say kevin and elizabeth shots beat their children regularly because they believe god wanted them to. the district attorney said the shots believed -- >> to spare the rod will spoil the child. and if you can train your horse and you can train your dog, you can train your children. >> 7-year-old lydia suffered terribly supposedly in the name of god. but authorities say this was torture and murder by parents who were supposed to love and cherish their skmield. inside this house they found important evidence the so-called biblical rods the shots had inside. what they were were 15 inch long plumbing supply tubes used to beat the children and also important a book was found inside. a book that appeared to light the fuse to the deadly brutality. the book is called "to train up a child." it's author is this man on the tractor michael pearl and his wife debbie. they consider themselves christians who run an organization called no greater joy ministries from their tennessee farm. >> i'm a preacher, a minister of the gospel. >> their book and others they've written stacked in a warehouse on their farm. all of them guided they say, by the teachings in the bible. >> and it says that if you spare the rod you hate your child. but if you love him, you chasten him timely. >> a rod according to the pearl's manual can be a tree switch to a rod. the pearls say parents should stay in control and not act in extreme. they declare any spanking to effectively reinforce instruction must cause pain. >> let's say a 7-year-old slugs his sister. he would get a -- a 7-year-old would get a ten or 15 licks it would be a formal thing. in other words, you maintain your patient air. you explain to him what he's cone is violent and that's not acceptable in society and it's not acceptable in his home. i would take him into his bedroom and tell him i'm going to give him 15 licks. >> with what? >> probably a belt. a kid that big, a boy i'd probably use a belt. it would be handy. i might use a wooden spoon a piece of like plumbing supply line, a quarter inch in diameter, flexible enough to roll up. >> why not just use your hand instead of all these materials? >> look here. let me show you something. does that hurt? >> doesn't feel good. >> you don't use your hand on somebody. that's a karate chop. >> when you're using this material -- >> my children never had marks left on them. >> but look at the body of this girl. the daughter who was seriously injured by her parents. these are just some of her wound. other wounds and bruises on her body and on the body of her sister lydia who died are far too graphic for us to show. lydia was so severely beaten she died of a condition usually associated with earthquakes and bombings. what do you think influenced the shots to beat, terrorize and torment the children? >> the book by mr. pearl. there's no doubt about that. >> lydia was beaten for seven continuous hours interrupted by short prayer breaks on the day she died. the sound of the police siren was recorded by a paradise police officer racing to the house. when he arrived he tried to save lydia with cpr both the parents present. >> she was like, really tired and her eyes, her vision was blurry. >> listen lart to the day to the seriously injured girl. >> on my bottom and on my back last night, too. underneath my feet. >> underneath your feet? zaria, i'd like to take you to the hospital, okay. >> i probably need to bring a pot cause i'm going to puke. >> at the sentencing hearing the 11-year-old who is still recovering from her serious injuries had the courage to address her parents in open court about her deceased sister. she said why did you adopt her? to kill her? it's a heartbreaking story. kevin pleaded guilty to murder and torture and will be in jail for at least 22 years. elizabeth for at least 12. do you think if the shots did not read the pearl's book, there'd be a good chance that lydia would still be alive. >> i think there would be. >> we reviewed to case to see if there was going to be any blame pointed at us a. so we looked into it. >> when we come back, has the death of little lydia caused the pearls to rethink any of their parenting advice? gary gets a lesson in language. >> i don't use the term hitting. >> what's the word? >> spanking. >> >> a difference? >> absolutely. >> also ahead, gary investigating some disturbing allegations of harsh abuse and brainwashing at a fundamentalist baptist home for so-called troubled teens. is special report ungodly discipline continues in a moment. ♪ [ electronic beeping ] [ male announcer ] still getting dandruff? neutrogena® t/gel shampoo defeats dandruff after just one use. t/gel shampoo. it works. neutrogena®. we started working on tonight's special report after hearing about a little girl beaten to death by her parents. that's the little girl there. that in itself is a horrifying story. the fact that her parents allegedly believed god wanted them to beat their daughter made the story everybody more disturbing. kevin and elizabeth are now serving prison sentence. they kept a controversial parenting book in their home. a book that says god wants parents to spank their children with rods and switches and rubber tubing. and that the spanking should be hard enough to cause physical pain. the couple who wrote the book say they're not to blame for what the couple did. the district attorney sees it differently. >> michael pearl is a competitive knife and tomahawk thrower. he never misses the target. but it's just a hobby. his life's work is preaching. he targets what some might call extreme discipline of children. >> i've never met another well trained emotionally secure, happy, creative children that weren't spanked. >> pearl is a minister of the gospel, a devout christian. he and his wife are best-selling authors who have written many religiously themed books. but their most popular and most controversial is a book called "to train up a child." in which they write about the need to inflict physical pain. >> i don't use the term hitting. >> what's the word? >> spanking. >> is there a difference? >> absolutely. a hand is hitting. a little switch is spanking. a wooden spoon or a spatula, a rubber spatula. >> in the book the pearls who live in rural tennessee declare the rod is a gift from god. use it as the hand of god to train your children. they say any spanking to effectively reinforce instruction must cause pain. this couple believed in the pearls. kevin and elizabeth parents of nine children read their book. as a matter of fact, the book was found in their house and put in an evidence bag after the california couple pummelled one of their daughters for hours. 7-year-old lydia who had been adopted by' bierria died after suffering horrific injuries all over her body. mike ramsey is the district attorney in butte county california. >> as we're talking about is and we charged torture. torture over hours. this past spring they pleaded guilty to the killing of their daughter lydia and seriously injuring her older sister. these are the photos of the sister's wounds. the marks left by the rods. many images too griesome to show. the couple said they regularly beat the other children. we're covering the faces of the survivors to protect their privacy. >> the book was there and underlined in various areas. >> there's no question in your mind that this book by the pearls influenced the couple to beat, brutalize and terrorize the children? >> none at all. >> no question? >> no question. >> but the pearls feel differently saying the book rejects parents losing control and acting out of anger. you're not accepting any blame? >> absolutely not. >> are you scared there would be blame pointed at you? >> we weren't scared at all. there's never been a suggestion that someone's lost control because of what they read in our book. >> the district attorney clearly disagrees and puts blame on the pearls for the tragedy. he acknowledges that's as far as he can go. >> was there any ever any legal consideration. >> not really. >> the pearls say they feel badly for the girl who died. but they're unapologetic. they're not shy in using props and humor. >> i'm going to spank the cnn man to show how they believe god wants parents to spank. >> rubbing the spaghetti all over your head. you shouldn't have done that at 7 years of age. okay? >> that hurts and i'm 50. >> did i leave any marks on you? >> you would hit a 5-year-old like that? >> sure. >> the pearls say you can never be too young for some physical pain. for example, when a baby bites during breastfeeding. >> i would gently pull their hair. very gently. it's enough to make them let go. >> the spankings with various objects say the pearls are actually done out of love. the pearls appear to be staying prolific with their writings and preachings. they say they are simultaneously writing four new books. there is no indication that any controversy slows them down. and why should it, say the pearls? they say it worked for their children and most importantly this is what god wants. >> we don't punish our children. we sometimes need to get their attention. >> the eight surviving children are now all in foster homes. they and their sister lydia certainly got our attention. gary tuckman, cnn, paradise, california. >> harsh discipline in the name of god. it's not just happening inside private homes like these. just ahead what we uncovered about a fundamentalist baptist home for so-called troubled teens. a facility that operates outside the reach of regulators because of religious affiliation. also ahead a girl whose childhood was filled with beatings. >> these pastors are advocating abuse. the case of a 7-year-old girl beaten to death by her paints raises the question if parents are using the bible to justify their own bad parents. the case of a 7-year-old girl beaten to death by her paints raises the question if parents are using the bible to justify their own bad parents. before the break you heard from michael pearl a christian minister and author the popular book to train up a child. his book says god wants his parents to beat their children with rods and switches enough to cause pain. here's part of an audio recording of a sermon. >> this evening i'd like to preach on spanking according to the bible. this is not a new subject here at fair d hayes venn bapt church. >> he talk t about the right way in administer discipline in his opinion. >> what is a rod? i don't think it's a ball bat, i don't think it's a rod. the rod in scriptures is never carefully defined, but it's obviously some kind of a stitch or switch and it's designed to give a sharp, unpleasant pain. if that isn't the result of your spanking, then you're failing. a sharp, unpleasant pain. >> fairhaven is part of the network of independent fundamentalist baptist churches. joycelyn grew up in the church, i spoke to her earlier. what was your upbringing like? you underwent what i think was called biblical chastisement, what did that actually mean? >> there are a large network of churches known as the independent fundamentalist baptist, we use the acronym ifb as a simplistic way to define the group. they believe in breaking the will of a child. my father was an ifb pastor, he currently is an ifb pastor. he practiced this form of discipline that michael pearl is advocating in his book. that could mean that our spanking sessions, i refer to it as beating sessions could last 15 minutes to several hours at a time because basically these pastors believe that a child needs to have no will of their own. so that will continue to administer discipline until a child is completely docile until they show no emotion. >> these pastors say we're not calling for abuse of a child, this can be misused by bad parents who are out there who act out in anger and are irresponsible. but that's not what they're calling for. >> michael peril said that he does not advocate anyone spanking a child in anger or being out of control. that's what's really difficult to explain to the outside of the ifb. because the ifb pastors are not advocating losing control and beating the child to death. these pastors ared a voighting a systemic form of punishment that outside of their community would be referred to as abuse. inside the community it's called spiritual spanking. it's a matter of semantics. they would say you shouldn't be out of control. when we hear of parents who kill children we think of parents who lost control completely and it ended in the death of a child. these patients are making a conscious decision to beat a child for several hours at a time because it's something that's embedded within their belief system in the ifb. >> you run a website called freedom fromabuse.net. plenty of parents believe in punishment in our country, i think the majority of people at this point in time would say a time or two i swatted my 2 or 3-year-old on the butt when they were running out into the street. that's not what's being promoted within this group. this is systemic form of brainwashing of these children to again to break them completely of a will. we were to be completely submissive. here's another way i would explain it. when you imagine a 3 or 4-year-old being spanked the parent is laying the child down, they are spanking them and you know if you're a 3-year-old you're going to squirm during a spanking session like that. that squirm is revelation to them that the child is exerting their will and that will needs to be broken so the parents continue to spank. so in the lydia case i believe that they interpreted any kind of bodily movement of lydia's as a willful spirit that they needed to break so that's why the session last ds as long as we've heard of seven hours. >> i guess there's clearly abuse and in the lydia case i don't think anybody in the church would say it's acceptable. is it fair to be casting aspersions against an entire church organization as opposed to just bad individuals who clearly abuse a child? >> well, i think that that's where the history of the ifb has come into light now. abc 20/20 did a documentary on april 89th called shatter faith in which they did a whole year to do a piece on this culture. the findings were yes, this is what's being taught from the you will pits of these pastors. >> i should point out we called the church for a response to talk to the pastor and did not get a response, but we look forward to continuing that discussion. joycelyn, i appreciate your time the findings were yes, this is what's being taught from the you will pits of these pastors. >> i should point out we called the church for a response to talk to the pastor and did not get a response, but we look forward to continuing that discussion. joycelyn, i appreciate your time tonight. thank you very much. >> sure. thank you. >> we reached out a number of times to request an interview or statement. he declined so did the fairhaven bapt church-our invitation is still ahead. still ahead in our special report, what's really going on in this baptist home for troubled teens. the special protection law gives religious group home. gary tuckman investigates. >> we has a lot of people complain about the abuse at your house. can you give us a comment about that? >> well, i would rather not. good evening, everybody. i'm gary tuckman. three american college students studying in egypt are now free. the men were arrested monday after being accused of throwing molotov cocktails during the unrest that has taken place in egypt since last week. they have left the police station in cairo and are planning on boarding three separate commercial flights back to dust. black friday turned ugly today. at a walmart in north carolina off duty police officers used pepper spray to keep anxious shoppers at bay before the start of an electronics sale. at another walmart outside of los angeles a shopper used pepper spray on another shoppers to ensure she got her hands on an x box video game console. unfortunately it worked but not before harming others around her. >> my throat was burning. i saw people around me got it really bad. i tried to get away from it as quickly as possible. i don't think those were worth it. >> police are reviewing the security tapes to try to track down the woman. as black friday takes a close, it's time to look ahead to cyber monday. analysts are expecting a record $1.2 billion in sales on one of the internet's biggest shopping days of the year. eight out of ten retail will be offering promotions. the dow losing 26 points that was the worst thanksgiving week for stocks since 1932. 79 years. standard and poors taking action downgrading belgium's credit rating the country's gone 530 days without the coalition government. more news later. stay tuned to cnn. there's a network of religious affiliated reform schools that cater to fumist baptists. these homes can be traced bay toless ter rolloff. he used the a girls singing grown up to promote the home. ♪ >> despite its marketing pitch, the home for girls faced allegations of abuse. and now decades later another home that grew out of the same tradition is facing similar allegations. once again, here's gary tuckman. >> i'm about to meet a man who i know doesn't want to talk to me. my name's gary tuckman with cnn. we know that because don williams and his father ron had already told us in an email they would not comment about abuse that has alleged happened for many years on a secluded property in indiana. the house is a self-described fundamental baptist boarding school and church forred a lens et girls. the allegations are so disturbing we felt we needed a face-to-face meeting with the father or son in charge. we found the son in a parking lot. we've had a lot of people complain they've been abused at your house. can you give us a comment about that? >> well, i would rather not. >> our conversation did not end there but first, let us introduce you to susan who is now 45, but spent two and a half years starting when she was 15. >> it was going to be gardening and crafts and singing and just a chance to heal. >> so that's what your parents thought this school was going to be. >> that's right? >> was that in any way correct? >> no. i knew that the minute the door shut behind me. >> on her first day in this house which was is facility used back then, susan said she was accused of having a bad attitude while cleaning the ceiling. two staff women grabbed her and don williams administered what was known as godly discipline. >> he manhandled me to the floor. he hit me 3 a board as hard as he could. he's a very big man. and i was shocked. i had been paddled my whole life. i'd never been hit like that. >> michelle is 20 years old. she just got out of the house a few years ago. her parents thought the strict religious curriculum would make her a better baptist. >> they told me it was good for me. >> michelle was only 12 and brand new in the house when she said two staff women told her to take off her clothes and forced her into the closet where a man would give a medical examination. >> they held both of my legs and arms down and let him do this to me. stuck a speculum inside of me. i was scared. i didn't want him to touch me and there was nothing i could do. >> both women talk about being forced to eat a lot of food, sometimes not any food. being forced to drink a t love owater. susan said 28 girls shared three bedrooms on the upper floor of the house. there was one toilet. >> if i stood up to go to the bavm, no you can only go to the bathroom when you're told. >> these are the girls you were with. what would happen? >> you being paddled. >> i would wet the bed every single night i was there. they'd make a spectacle of you. you were there horrible person for doing that. i had to wear pullups every night. would watch me put it on and show it to them when i would take it off in the morning. >> it's been open a long time. lots of people complain about being beaten, emotionally tormented, all in the name of religion. there's a lot of us that are religious and don't believe in tormenting people. >> i prefer not to decline. >> why can't you comment in you believe in what you do. this is your chance to tell viewers. >> i understand that. i prefer not to. >> why don't you want to tell snus. >> i'm respectfully declining. >> don williams is also the pastor on the church on the house grounds. a former church goer gave cnn a cd sold by the church in which williams is preaching his views about who's to blame when a male whichls at a female. >> if you girls are walking down the sidewalk and some fellas drive by and they whistle, you better stop and think about that. what drew that whistle? was it the way i was walking? or maybe the way i was dressed or whatever? did i do something to defraud those men? >> the website features pictures of girls who have attended and claims that are no spankings or any out of the ordinary punishments. this facility has been around for about four decades. it seems to be a thriving enterprise. as you can see the people in charge don't particularly want to answer my questions. but we're not alone. they don't really answer to the government either. in indiana group homes operated by churches and religious ministries are excerpt from licenseure. nobody many the government knows what goes on. the women say their parents also had no idea. >> in the 15 months that you were in this house how many times did you leave the grounds to go somewhere else? >> never. >> zero? >> zero. >> the indiana governor's office says there's nothing it can do. the attorney general's office says it doesn't have jurisdiction. the same thing with the indiana department of education. notably the indiana department of child services said it could investigate providing it was a current complaint and not from someone who already walked out the door. we've talked to more than a dozen women who said they were victimized at the house and they say they could never make private calls or send uncensored letters. it's not the only facility of its kind. across the country victim advocates say there's a larm number of programs. >> i have nightmares about it all the time. vivid dreams like i'm trapped inside of this house again and i can't get out. the only thing i want is to run out the door and for some reason i can't. >> i think i fantasize about suicide those first years out. >> we wanted to give williams one last chance to answer the allegations. is it true or is it not? it's a yes or no question? >> it's not true. >> so they're lying to us. >> that's where you're trying to get me backed into a corner. it's their word against mine. >> we were not permitted to take video on the house property, but we did walk up the front steps and ring the bell. we saw a girl hustle back inside the home. we saw girls through the windows, but nobody would answer the door. >> gary joins us. why would the school use food and water as discipline. >> authorities at these institutions they have a laser like focus on discipline. they feel it's very important to make the children who attend these schools submissive and then they're disciplined. >> they're saying these are problem kids who are coming there and you can't deal with them through regular means. >> not all these kids are problem kids. a lot of parents are problem parents and didn't want to take care of their kids. that's not really true. >> is indiana really powerless to do an investigation of the school? >> this particular school's been open for 40 years. any of the governors wanted to make this a pet cause or the attorney general they could lobby the legislature. there seems to be no incentive to do anything about it. >> is there any role of the federal government? >> yes, there is. three years ago a bill went to congress that would put more oversight over private boarding schools to help prevent child abuse. it passed the house, but it died in a senate committee and has never come back. >> a fascinating report. after gary talked to williams, the house reached out to connect us with another former student. her family sent her to the school when she was 15. she stayed for three years. she joins me now. thanks for being with us. you went to this house in 1988 when you were 15. and you say you liked it there. why? >> i did. i felt safe and secure there. it was a place for me to be able to get back on track -- >> you'd come from an abusive family situation and they were very supportive at the house? >> yes, very supportive. they helped me get out of the situation that i was in and help me in taking care of what needed to be taken care of. >> were you ever beaten at the house? >> no. i was never beaten. i did receive a spanking, but never beaten. >> what sort of a spanking did you receive? >> i had cheated on a test and even though it had been several days they had to wait and get contact with my parents first before they could spank me. they took me upstairs, explained to me how it was done. i had to lay down on the floor. they held my hands and my feet. they put a chair across my back, i don't remember anybody sitting on it, granted this was 23 years ago, i got three swats. i was let up. >> swats with what? >> we sat on -- i think it was just a regular paddle. and then i was let up and sat on the couch and we prayed and we talked about i shouldn't be cheating. cheating's lying and then i -- within the three years i only received two spankings. it wasn't like, you know, i got them all the time or anything like that. >> we've heard from other girls who were there who obviously described what they call refer to as abusive situations. they refer to having to drink a lot of water and then not being allowed to go to the bavm and being made to wear diapers. why would that happen? >> no. in the three years that i was there there was only one girl that was made to wear a diaper. the situation was she had just gotten there. hadn't been there maybe a day and these girls were not angels that arrived there. this girl was determined that nobody was going to tell her what to do, when to go to the bathroom. because we did things on a timetable, on a schedule especially during school hours we would have breaks and recess and she says you're not going to tell me when to go to the bathroom. she refused to use the bathroom a few minutes she asked to use the bathroom. they tole her no you had the opportunity to use the bathroom. when they told her she needed to go when all the groups went, she said i'm going to stand her and pea in my pants. they said that's fine. if you do the consequence is because you won't go to the bathroom when you're supposed to, you'll wear a diaper for the day. she could i don't care. she did it out of rebelon and spite. it only took one day that she actually wore the diaper because the next day she did what she was supposed to. >> why do you think so many girls are giving strikingly similar accounts of being accused at the house, if that's note what really happened? do you think they're lying? >> i think for them some of the things were traumatic for them because they've never been in a situation where they were told what to do. for them to be told when to eat, when to sleep. you know, not have the freedom to do as they pleased, yes, they think they were abused, i guess you could say. do i agree with that? no. i came from a situation where i knew the difference between a spanking and a beating. if someone's never been spanked, then, yes, somebody may say well i was beat. >> i appreciate you being on and giving your perspective. thank you so much. >> all right. >> still ahead when faith and law collide. if your religion tells you god demands your spank your child, who's to tell you otherwise? where's the line between spanking and abuse. we'll be right back. today we've shown you how faith and family collide. today we've shown you how faith and family collide. and how they discipline kids. how much latitude, when does it legally become abuse? what about outside the family? before the break we showed you gary tuckman's report on faith-based homes for so-called trouble teens that have long faced allegations of abuse, but because of the rjs affiliation they have a lot of freedom from oversight. joining me now is the author of "walking the bible" and "generation freedom." bruce, i think the idea of corporal punishment for kids is probably a lot more common among evangelical christians than a lot of people realize. >> for many people in this country, many parents who are anxious about how to discipline their children, they turn to science. they turn to studies. they turn to therapy. for a lot of people in this country particularly evangelical biblical based protestants they turn to the bible. on this matter the bible is not particularly vague. several times in proverbs as we've been hearing all hour it says very clearly if you spare the rod, you hate your children. if you want to discipline your children you will be aggressive. i think for these people there is comfort in the bible and of course what we know in america is sometimes the people who put their faith many the bible come in conflict with people who put their faith in science or the law. >> how far buzz the discipline go and how do you define that discipline. gary tuckman, bruce detailed alleged abuses of girls defied going to the bathroom for hours and hours, force fed, starved some of these girls said. abusive sounding stuff. if it's true, how could that be justified? >> i think it's hard to justify based on religion. these are extreme people who are cutting themselves off, taking the most extreme view of religion. i think for most people who do support corporal punishment and as jeff knows far better than i, almost half the states in country it's still legal. most people even something like focus on the family or just very conservative group they say do it rarely, do it judicially, do it gently. even the people who support it go nowhere near these extreme cases we've heard in your reporting here tonight. there is a difference between what is occasional discipline of some kind and this clear open -- crossing the line into abuse and in some cases murder. >> jeff, it's an interesting legal issue because there are folks that say this is part of my religious belief. this is an extension of what i read in the bible. where does the law stand on hitting your child or hitting a student in a school? >> unfortunately the law is very easy at the extremes. no one is going to get arrested for a spanking. if god tells you to rob a bank, you can't rob a bank. when you get to these -- the corporal punishment that is more than a spanking, but less than a broken arm, the police struggle with these cases the laws vary by state. but most of the time the police don't get involved in these. even though the sad truth is most victims of murder, children who are victims of murder are people who are children killed by their family members. >> you make the point that the bible mentions a lot of things that aren't accepted anymore. >> look in the 19th century i wrote about this in a book i wrote about the influence of the bible in american history, the bible openly supports slavery and many people in the south used the biblical defense saying don't trust me, abraham had slaves, moses had slaves. jesus did nothing to stop slavery. on the matters of family, the bible is not a parents textbook. it's the dr. spock of the ancient world. these attempts to take biblical passages and apply them are very dangerous. most mainstream protestant groups. the methodist church have openly rejected this idea. my personal opinion about this is if you're going to argue with people who are using the bible as a defense, you can't use the law in a lot of ways. you can't use mainstream society where scientists don't reject it, you're better off saying this is a fringe idea many the bible. it's mentioned only a few times. in the book of proverbs, vague, poetic language. the larger theme of the bible, the first thing god says is have children and multiply. and many people who have argued against this from the biblical point of view say this is against the idea of the bible. it's against specifically the teaching of jesus which is to be sensitive to those most vulnerable in society and who's most vulnerable than children. my way to argue is not the law, but to say this is against the main theme of the bible. >> let's be clear, there is no such thing in an american courtroom as a biblical defense. you can maybe persuade a police officer not to arrest you, but once you're in a courtroom no judge is going to say it's okay if the bible say it's okay. >> it seems like there's very little regulation or oversight of homes or schools in indiana. >> very little. it varies by states. private schools in general are outside the supervision of the state. that's why you have a private school as opposed to a public school. they have to maintain certain minimum standards. you have to have sprinklers for fire safety. tough have a certain number of hours a week of instruction if you're a private or parochial school