Transcripts For CNNW Wolf 20141124

And that will be confirmed by the senate. Many say the surprisingly tough fight against isis, the drawdown of u. S. Military forces in afghanistan and pressing military budget problems. Nevertheless, the president says hagel leaves the department on firm footing. Its been the greatest privilege of my life, the greatest privilege of my life to lead and most important to serve. To serve with the men and women of the Defense Department and support their families. Im immensely proud of what weve accomplished at this time. Lets go to our pentagon correspondent barbara starr. Is this something that the president had to do to quiet the critics . Give us a a background, barbara, on what has occurred today. Wolf, across washington, there has been chatter, if you will, for weeks that the white house wanted to make a change in the Foreign Policy team, that the president was dissatisfied. You saw all kinds of stories being leaked about this and then the debacle with the midterm elections. The president was not going to fire susan rice, a personal friend to some extent. He was not going to dismiss john kerry, secretary of state. Kerry very high profile. Hagel perhaps became the last man standing. Hagel was seen as an implementer of the policy. In fact, thats what secretary of defense does, to some extent. All of these problems, all of these issues not solved by simply changing the person at the top. The white house wanted to make a change and hagel knew it. He had been talking to the president for the last several weeks, came to the decision, mutual . Perhaps not really. Because he was not asked to stay. Very well aware of the sniping and the political chatter about him, very well aware the white house wanted to make that change. So by all indications, he was basically forced out and the after making the decision, it was very closely held, we know, right up until the end. The chairman of the joint chiefs, general martin dempsey, did not even know about it until sometime in the short period of time before the announcement was made, hours, a couple of days, we dont really know. Its not like anybody knew that hagel and the president were going to do this. Very closely held. Now the question, of course, wolf, is where do you go from here . You put a new secretary of defense in but what do you really change . Do you suddenly change policy . Do you put troops on the ground in iraq . Do you have a greater presence in syria . Is that where all of this is going . That will be very tough going for the president if thats what he chooses to do because, of course, its been all about no troops on the ground and general dempsey has already said, if it came to it, he would recommend a small number of troops on the ground in iraq. So theres a lot of churn here still to be sorted out. Wolf . Barbara starr at the pentagon, thanks very much. Hagel is very frustrated. Thats a direct quote that im quoting the republican senator john mccain who spoke with hagel earlier this morning. Mccain, who was expected to become the next chairman of the Senate Armed Services committee which will have to approve new secretary of defense nominee called in to a Phoenix Radio talk show. They are going to say, well, it was time for a change and all that but i can tell you, he was in my office last week. He was very frustrated. We have no strategy to combat isis. We have no way of helping the ukrainians. We refuse to give them weapons to defend themselves. We watched the turmoil in the far east with the chinese asserting themselves. We see a lack of less influence like unknown in history. Already the white house people are leaking, well, he wasnt up to the job. Believe me, he was up to the job. It was the job that he was given where he really was never brought into that real tight circle inside the white house that makes all the decisions. Lets get some perspective on this. Joining me is jeremy bash, staff to leon panetta as well as the secretary of defense. Jeremy, thanks very much for joining us. Give me your Quick Reaction to what we just heard from john mccain. Because you know one of the complaints about not just the Defense Department but the state department, cia and Congress Department that the white house micromanages everything. They really cant make decisions on their own and its so frustrating to those various agencies, departments of the u. S. Government. Well, wolf, hagel is really a class act and you saw from his statement and the white house earlier, hes a patriot and i think the president wanted new leadership there and instead of waiting for the back and forth and the discussion over the weeks decided to do what i think is the honorable thing is to step aside and why . The secretary of defense is three big jobs. The first is to oversee the personnel and readiness of the troops. The second is to oversee the budget of that some 600 billion a year in defense spending. The third is where i think the president needed new leadership on is to oversee strategy and policy, work in the chain of command between the president and commanders. Sit in the National Security council room and advise the president and be one of the architects of strategy and policy. The president wanted someone else. He thought someone else could do a better job. So you have no doubt that he was pushed, for all practical purposes, he was pushed out . Well, my sense, wolf, is that hes been serving a year and nine months. Hes been doing a lot internally in the department. Hes been working on health care and Sexual Assault prevention, cybersecurity. Ice been working on a number of initiatives. Just last week in california, many of us were there at the Reagan Library when secretary hagel unveiled a brandnew innovation agenda for the department. So i think hes been working full steam ahead on certain key initiatives but its that piece about the defense element in our Foreign Policy. What are we going to do in iraq, in syria, in afghanistan . How are we going to rebalance our facts to the pacific . We can get someone better in here to do the job and an array of challenges are so big over the years, weve got to get fresh leadership. Whos that better person to come in . You know most of the names out there. Ive worked closely with a number of folks that have worked with deputy secretaries and undersecretaries in the previous leadership changes in the pentagon. I think its fair to say that they will work very closely at ash carter, who served as deputy to secretary panetta. I think its fair to say that they will look at Michele Flournoy who served under both secretary gates as well as secretary panetta and a few others who understand the strategic game and outside Foreign Policy game and who worked with vice admiral and the combatants. Those are who the president will be looking to do the job right now. Senator jack reed, we put his picture up there. He said he was not interested and wants to stay as the United States senator from the state of rhode island. Very quickly, who are the other names you think may be out there . Well, i dont know, wolf. I really think its going to be a small circle of people who this team, the president and his team had experience with. And beyond those names that weve discussed, im not sure that ive heard other names although i wouldnt rule it out that they reach for someone on the outside. My sense is, with two years left, theyll go with a trusted name, someone they know who can deliver. And that person will have to testify before the Senate Armed Services committee and john mccain will be very, very important and fascinating hearings. Jeremy, thanks very much for joining us. Jeremy bash with leon panetta, staff at the cia and pentagon. Sources telling cnn its clear that secretary hagel was pushed out. But why now and what is next . Newt gingrich and paul begala are here to discuss what is going on. And the barricades are up outside the st. Louis county justice center. All is calm as we await the grand jurys decision on the shooting death of Michael Brown. Hello. Im an idaho potato farmer and our big idaho potato truck is still missing. So my buddy here is going to help me find it. Here we go. Woo who, woah, woah, woah. Its out there somewhere spreading the word about americas favorite potatoes heart healthy idaho potatoes and the american heart associations go red for women campaign. If you see it i hope youll let us know. Always look for the grown in idaho seal. 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There have been rumors or two or three weeks but the kind you get in the city. But what is really biz skbrbiza you look around and go, who should it be . The only republican serving in the cabinet but hagel endorsed barack obama for president of the United States. But john mccain does like hagel. And you would think, just for diversity sake, they could have kept one republican in the cabinet. So i think in that sense its a minor misstep. The bigger problem, of course, is that all of the policies that are getting him in trouble are white house policies. They are not hagel. Thats the criticism. You hear it from people in the administration, in the executive branch, the Obama Administration that the white house micromanages everything and its so frustrating to these cabinet members. Youve heard that criticism . It is. But i believe in a strong white house. Back in the day, Ronald Reagan in his second term didnt know who his housing secretary was. He called him a mayor. You dont want that kind of disengagement. I think jeremy bash who you had on earlier, a very wellsourced guy, a lot of important things inside the pentagon taking on Sexual Assault and budget cuts. But now they want a mr. Or miss outside who can deal with the policy change and with a House Republican senate there is a sequester, though. That should come up in the hearings. We are probably going to find a way around the sequester because the world is more dangerous in the last 12 months. The real question is going to be, Michele Flournoy she would be the first woman as secretary of defense. And she has bipartisan respect. The policies are really screwed up are the white house policies. You can talk all you want to, we need to develop strategy. No. The people who develop strategy in this administration are sitting in the white house and there are about four of them. And dont you think the playbook for the hearings, whoever the president nominates, that playbook was written by leon panetta and he wrote a really scathing book. See, i think this is a change in the white house becoming more insular. Nobody wants that. When you see person after person in whom you have invested trust, then portray that trust by stabbing you in the back and writing a book before your term is over, its going to make you more insular. The lines that you have to say about bill clinton, enormous level of trust and no matter what he did, people were loyal to him and through it all. Let me put up a statement. This personnel change must be part of a larger rethinking of our strategy to confront the threats we face abroad especially the threat posed by the rise of isil. I think hes right. Chuck hagel is a decorated veteran and a remarkable patriot. But they needed somebody who had a broader sense of the framework. Thats what secretary boehner is saying. So the point youre making, they dont think he was up to the job . To that aspect of the job. To the external driving of different defense posture around the world as opposed to fixing challenges within the pentagon. I think the problem was just the opposite. He was deflecting the militarys view of what has to be done. The white house does not want to do what the military thinks has to be done and they are going to try to find somebody who comes in and says to the military, were going this way. Shut up and obey. And i think its going to be a disaster. Notice, by the way, tonight the iranians get rewarded by having another delay until july of the socalled were going to discuss that in a minute. They couldnt reach a deal so they are going to do this extension for several more months. Stand by, guys. Well discuss that and a lot more. In less than an hour, the president will award 19 recipients, the president ial medal of freedom, among the honorees, tom brokaw, congressman john dingell and meryl streep. Our coverage will begin at 2 15 eastern. Im be anchoring our coverage around that. Youre going to want to see this president ial medal of freedom ceremony. Up next, much more with Newt Gingrich and paul begala as we look at this new report on benghazi. What happened and the reactions to exoneration for the Obama Administration at least in large measure. And the tension in ferguson, missouri, is palpable as they await the grand jury to indict a white Police Officer for the killing of an unarmed black teenager. The fact is, we have four dead americans. Was it because of a protest or because of guys out for a walk one night and they decided go kill some americans. What difference, at this point, does it make . That was the secretary of state Hillary Clinton testifying in january of 2013 about the attack on the u. S. Consulate in benghazi, libya. She was being questioned by lapses by the Security Department and cia being blamed for the deaths of those four americans, including the United States ambassador to libya. Lets bring back Newt Gingrich and paul begala. Lets talk about this new House Intelligence Committee report, republican majority in the house of representatives basically suggesting that there was no great intelligence failure, no coverup, none of the accusations, basically, that have been made by a lot of the republicans in the house and elsewhere to which Lindsey Graham, the senator from South Carolina told Gloria Borger on state of the Union Yesterday this. No. No. I think the reports full of crap. Why. Quite frankly. Graham was focusing in on that part of the report dealing with the talking points that were given, for example, to then u. N. Ambassador susan rice. Lets get your reaction, first of all, to this House Intelligence Committee report. This is now the third major report on the benghazi attacks, right . First there was a democratic controlled Senate Committee on intelligence, five found the same conclusion. There was an independent accountability review board chaired by the joint chairman chiefs of staff and it found the same thing. Now a republicanled committee, twoyear investigation, hearings, access to classified information, full investigative powers of the house of representatives and they find the same thing. So i think we can say case closed now. There was Something Like ten attacks like this when president bush w. Bush was president and there were no investigations like this. So theres partisanship behind this but at least now we have a tripartisanship consensus that the conspiracy theories are nuts. The report says there was a lot of confusion out there but no deliberate attempt to mislead the American Public on what they knew or didnt know but there was intense confusion. And frankly, thats why you had the reaction from Lindsey Graham who went on to say on the same show that he was personally lied to by the Deputy Director of the cia, that the guy was not held accountable in this report and that its an absurdity. The deputy direct leaves a white house meeting and goes back and rewrites the talking points in a way that is factually false. You can agree or disagree, i think this is a very youre saying mike rogers, chairman of the House Intelligence Committee and not own the democrats but the republicans did not do a good job with this report . Trey gowdy thats a separate investigation. Yeah. And they pointed out that they havent even gotten key documents out of the agency and they have no idea why rogers issued this report. And i think this is unwione of e things where if you ever want to see a committee that i think frankly was coopted by the cia thats a pretty strong accusation. Your job, former speaker of the house, is to oversee the cia and not to be coopted. Ive talked to four different people who have a real interest in this topic and they believe its misleading and will go down as an example of a committee that i want to get your Quick Reaction. Another several months they are going to continue the discussions. The u. S. , the other permanent members of the security council, germany with iran, to deal with its nuclear program. Secretary of state john kerry in vienna, austria, are you okay with that . Crippling sanctions are crushing the russian economies. As long as the sanctions are going on, the effects are occurring. Critically important to maintain that pressure. Secretary of kerry should be congratulated for that. Because all of the members of the u. N. Security council are involved. They are on the same page as the russians and chinese as well. They are all desperately seeking a way to avoid a crisis and the iranians are quite happy to have them do nothing. Thoo he is are not crushing enough that the iranians have conceded anything. They are destroying the iranian economy. Rouhani has got to get a deal and he knows that. Then why didnt they . They just got seven more months to keep working on nuclear weapons. What happens so your strategy would be to walk away, right . John kerry walks out and says youre bad people. How fast before the russians, the chinese and our other alleged friends enrich the folks in tehran . Okay. So what youre suggesting is that the Real Advantage we currently have is the guys we totally distrust arent doing things they could do for guys that we really distrust . Thats called diplomacy. Guys, were out of time right now. Thanks to both of you for joining us. Just ahead, a nervous city awaits the grand jurys decision in ferguson, missouri. 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And local Law Enforcement officials telling cnn that a decision by the grand jury in the Darren Wilson case is expected to be announced later today. The sources did not know what the decision is, what the announced decision will be. Lets go to cnns justice reporter evan perez. Hes on the scene for us in clayton. Thats where the grand jury has been meeting in missouri. They were supposed to get a decision on friday. They couldnt over the weekend. Presumably they were considering more facts. Now theyve met again and theyve reached a decision. Is that what youre hearing, evan . Reporter thats right, wolf. The officials here are getting ready to make a public announcement. On friday they instead of asking to see more evidence, they simply said that they wanted to think about it some more. They wanted to discuss it some more. Thats why they were back here today to finish their deliberations, to finish the decision making. Were now told by sources that they are getting ready to make that announcement later this evening. They want Law Enforcement to be prepared for a possible announcement. It wont take much but they want to make sure that they can remind the public that theyve got enough resources to protect the public and make sure that everybody keeps calm whatever the decision is, wolf. So the prosecutor, mr. Mccullough will make the announcement . Reporter thats what we are expecting. He would be making an official announcement, from what we are told. All the best made plans have gone out the window given that they were expecting this to come on friday and then on sunday giving Law Enforcement plenty of time to get ready. They dont want to push this back any further. We have the holiday coming up later this week so thats the idea that they want to get this out and get deal with whatever the blowback or whatever the reaction publicly is, they want to deal with that now. So presumably, correct me if im wrong, is mccullough notifying parties, including Michael Browns parents, for example, the attorneys, various Law Enforcement authorities, state and federal Law Enforcement authorities what the decision is so they can be ready and if hes telling these people what the decision is, arent there serious concerns of leaks coming out in advance of a public announcement . Reporter well yes, wolf. Thats exactly right. Theres a big concern about possible leaks. So there is, obviously, a procedure to go through here. Theres some things that they have to notify the judge to get ready. They also mccullough has said publicly that he wants to release all of the materials presented to this grand jury. That is a little more complicated because they need to make sure the judge is okay with that. There is obviously the question of how do you protect the identities of some of the witnesses that came before the grand jury. So all of that is going to be taking place in the next few hours. We expect that Michael Browns family will be told before the decision is made publicly and also Darren Wilsons team, his attorneys would also be told if theres an indictment. They will have to make arrangements to have himself turn himself in. So all of those things are in place and they are being worked on at this hour. And it takes nine members of the grand jury, 12 people on the grand jury to reach a decision. Reporter right. And it could be the various options, first or seconddegree murder, voluntary or Involuntary Manslaughter or none of the above and he walks. Those are the various options before the grand jury, right . Reporter right. You have nine people who have to agree on one of those charges and if theres not enough members of the grand jury who agree on any of those things, then you end up with no charges. So theres various ways that it can go. Stand by, evan, because evan is reporting that they have reached the decision, that decision is expected to be announced by the st. Louis county prosecutor later today. I want to bring in the director of the Missouri Department of public safety. Hes joining us from nearby jennings, missouri. Thanks very much for joining us. You hear the breaking us into. A decision has been reached and will be announced by the prosecutor shortly. Are you ready, the people in missouri for the announcement . Yes, we are, the community has been preparing for this decision for a long time. Law enforcement operations are all set and, more importantly than that, theres been so much dialogue thats gone on between Law Enforcement in all sectors of the community that we are prepared for any decision that comes down. How worried are you, though, about outside agitators coming in from out of state trying to provoke some kind of confrontation with Law Enforcement . Well, a couple of things. Because of the dialogue and the communication that has gone on between Law Enforcement and the community, i think we have an understanding of the sort of rules, ground rules that were going to move forward on. So i think thats very, very important. Weve learned a lot of lessons, both the community and Law Enforcement over the last couple of weeks. I think thats going to help in terms of our tone. And then when we do those things, we believe that the people who are coming from outside will be clearly identifiable and well deal with those people as well. Where do you anticipate, mr. Isom, the block of the protests to occur . Lets assume we dont know what the decision is by the grand jury. But lets say theres no indictment, which fuels a lot of anger, would they be in ferguson, in clayton where the grand jury has been meeting . In other words, where are you potentially gearing up for these demonstrations . Well, were prepared to go anywhere. Law enforcement has an Operational Plan that is mobile and is prepared to show up anywhere that is needed to protect people and property and then to have their voice heard. Of course, the focal point will be here in ferguson and in clayton and maybe some other areas around the city. But those seem to be the two focal points. And you have a good plan, coordination with local, state and federal authorities including the National Guard . We heard the governor, jay next son, say a few days ago that hes activated National Guard. Is everybody coordinated and working together . Yes. The unified command st. Louis city, st. Louis county, the missouri Highway Patrol have been planning for weeks. They are ready and they are prepared. If we need more support, we will have the National Guard in place but that will only be in a support role and only if necessary. And then there are other Smaller Police departments around the community who are willing to assist and support as well. Mr. Isom, good luck to you and to everyone over there. Lets hope for a peaceful amount of demonstrations if, in fact, they do occur. Thanks very much for joining us. Thank you, wolf. And just, again, u. S. And local Law Enforcement officials tell cnn that a decision in the Darren Wilson case is expected to be announced later today. We dont know what the decision is. We dont know when it will be announced. We do believe the announcement will come directly from the st. Louis county prosecutor. Once again, we dont know when that decision will be announced or what the decision is. But here is what could happen. Wilson could be charged potentially with murder or manslaughter. But if he is not indicted, he could face possible federal charges and also certainly face some sort of civil suit. Lets bring in our senior legal analyst jeffrey toobin. Based on what you know and i know its speculation that were all guessing here, because we dont know what minine members this grand jury have decided, what do you think are the most likely scenarios . You know, wolf, im going to give you a nonanswer to your question because i honestly dont know. One thing you have to say for this grand jury, its been a secret proceeding. We know that Darren Wilson himself has testified. That is unusual. The target of a grand jury proceeding rarely agrees to give up his fifth amendment rights to remain silent and testify. But outside of that, we dont know. Certainly i dont know a lot of the evidence. And one thing i would like to one prediction i will make is that if and when the evidence comes out of what the grand jury heard, were going to see some surprises. We knew there were some eyewitnesss and were familiar with their testimony because they gave interviews but not everybody did and not all of the scientific tests are out. So i dont know what they are going to do. I dont think this deliberation was particularly long, given the length and complexity of this investigation, and well know the answer soon. We certainly will. Presumably in the next few hours if not sooner than that. How unusual lets say we dont know what the decision is but lets say hes not charged, hes not indicted. The prosecutor still wants to go ahead and then release all of the information, all of the evidence, all of the testimony that was put before the grand jury over these past many weeks . How unusual would that be . It would be very unusual. But if there were ever a circumstance where it might be appropriate, this would be one, i think, given the degree of public interest, given, frankly, the suspicion that this prosecutor was not conducting a thorough investigation. I think it would be in the interest of the prosecuting attorney, mr. Mccullough, to see all of the evidence and prove that he did a thorough investigation. Now, one interesting possibility is that if there is an indictment, there will probably be no release of evidence until the trial and then only the trial testimony will come out. So, in fact, more testimony might come out if theres no indictment in this circumstance than if there is an indictment, which is certainly unusual but its an unusual case. Stand by, jeffrey, because i want to continue this. Danny cevallos and mark omara is joining us. What do you make of the breaking news that a decision has been reached and its expected to be announced later today by the st. Louis county prosecutor . Well, they have taken a lot of time. Theyve gone over a number of witnesses. Theyve done everything that we should ask them to do as a grand jury and they seem to have deliberated long enough. A lot of questions and im sure theyve answered it for themselves and looking forward to a decision so that one way or the other, the nation can move on. And danny cevallos, what was your reaction when you heard the news that they have reached a decision . Well, its like any time that you wait for any jury. You have no idea when they are going to get done. The fact that there is an announcement tells us that theyve looked at all of the evidence and i can tell you for sure, just like jeff said, just like any legal analyst should say, theres no way to read the tea leaves and guess at whether there will be a true bill or no true bill in the case and the jury may be instructed on several different crimes but theyve undoubtedly been instructing in selfdefense and police use of legal force. Mark omara, if they have a decision now, theyve reached that decision, why do they have to wait a few hours to release it . Why cant they just go ahead and release it right away . Well, thats probably the logistics thats been put in place with the department of justice, local Law Enforcement agencies because we know whatever the decision is its going to be looked at by the nation and considered. Its going to be a reaction to it across the board. So i know that they had planned initially to have a 48hour delay from decision to announcement. We also know that Law Enforcement has already been ready and willing to go forward whenever the grand jury was. I think what they have done is abbreviate that 48 hours but its down to five, six, seven hours. I think its good for Law Enforcement to get ready to react to whatever is going to come. Given the passions involved, danny, and i want all of you to weigh in on this as well, lets say theres no indictment we dont know what the decision is. No indictment, would it be wise knowing how angry that would result in a lot of folks out there, would it be wise until its dark to make that announcement, until its nighttime . Thats a tactical decision by not only the prosecution but also the local police when they are considering crowd control. Really, theres no handbook on when to announce visavis the court although we should be mindful that the concept of secrecy is a slippery and elusive one when it comes to courthouse gossip. Every hour they hold on to this information is another hour that somewhere, some staff member may accidently mention something to the wrong person. So its exceedingly difficult to keep anything truly secret in a courthouse. Jeffrey toobin, thats an excellent point because i know theres enormous concern about leaks. There is. And, remember, the defense the Michael Browns family is going to be notified in advance of the public disclosure. There is going to be a lot of pressure on them. And dont kid yourself, from people like us, from journalists who want to learn from them first what this result is. So i would be very surprised, frankly, if it goes the full six hours. I dont know the answer to what the best way to release the news is. But i think six hours is is a long time to hold a secret like this, especially when youre starting to disclose it in a piecemeal way. Sooner is probably better than later. Under these circumstances, mark, i want to hear what you have to say but, 12 members of the grand jury, are they now free to go . Are they still being sequestered, if you will . They have reached the decision. Can they simply walk out of that building over there, go home, even if they promise theyll remain quiet or do they keep them under wraps . Whats the normal situation in a highly tense environment like it is right now . Remember, theres a Missouri State law saying that they cant disclose the testimony to witnesses or the results. They are under court order and state law that they dont disclose it. And there is, again were sort of in unchartered territory. I would imagine that the prosecutor is going to ask them to stick around, stay sequestered, if you will, and stay quiet until the decision comes out. Can they go home . I guess they could but i believe theyll take the tact of leave them where they are for right now and wait until its all over. I will say, i think its a mistake, i hear what youre saying earlier about waiting until nighttime. There is going to be reaction one way or the other and the idea of doing it in the dark makes it much more difficult for Law Enforcement to identify and to surveil it and respond to it. That was my concern as well. Danny, react to what we just heard from mark about this notion that the 12 members of the grand jury will simply be sequestered until an announcement is made. They wont necessarily be allowed to go home to their families. Our system does that to jurors all the time. They hold them against their will whether its deliberating the grand jury at this point is accustomed to the courthouse telling them what they can and cannot do. I would imagine a few extra hours added on to this already very, very substantial intrusion on their time and their privacy and time away from work really, in the grand scheme of things, is not that much more to wait. But the courthouse has that remember, for a jury, the most important thing about them is secrecy. To preserve that, courts go to extreme lengths with good reason. The secrecy of the grand jury is what is to be preserved and they will do that at all costs. I want to play this little clip. This is benjamin crump, one of the attorneys from Michael Browns family. He said this. Listen. We dont have that clip. Were going to get that momentarily. Jeffrey, lets talk about some of the possible scenarios out there. Im going to walk through what the possible charges could be and you give us your analysis of what would have to be what these grand jurors, 9 of them out of 12 would be. One would be first degree murder. Is that likely or realistic . I true it doesnt have to be planned a day in advances it can be planned minutes or even seconds in advance, but that strikes me as if there is any charge at all the least likely possibility. What about seconddegree murder . There you get to a lesser degree of intentionality, but still intentional murder. Again, i think given the facts of this case, if theres going to be a charge, some sort of manslaughter seems the most likely. What about that mark, voluntary, lesser charge off lunn tear manslaughter or Involuntary Manslaughter. Explain to our viewers what those mean. Sure the difference seen with voluntary manslaughter you do something thats voluntary you do it and do it not with the intentionality we were talking about but an act you do and it has that consequence. Compare that to Involuntary Manslaughter a reckless maneuver something you do driving your car at 75 Miles Per Hour through a school zone, so reckless if you kill somebody ice that type of crime. We also have to realize in the overall cover of this, what the grand jury will do the 12 of them who are sitting back are saying to themselves under the situation that existed at the moment that Darren Wilson reacted to it was he reasonable in his fear of Great Bodily Injury or not and if he was then theres no indictment, no true bill and they are done because he acted quote reasonably under the then existing circumstances. If they dont see that. Go ahead finish your thought. If they dont see that then they start going down the list of potential crimes looking at what he may have done if he didnt have that perfect selfdefense, imperfect selfdefense. Those basically, danny, would be the four potential charges, first degree murder, seconddegree murder, voluntary manslaughter or Involuntary Manslaughter. Is there anything else they could potentially come pup what they will be instruktd in is the law of selfdefense which will be critical. We can talk about the charges and if you walk through the statute the jury will be instructed for example first degree murder everything except for Involuntary Manslaughter is some form of intentional act and no question the firing of the gun was intentional. Its important the instructions the jury receives because theres so much more than just the intentional pulling of a trigger. They have to counter bail it, they have to confront it or reconcile with the law of selfdefense. So thats another very important consideration the jury will have. Ill also add when it comes to voluntary, Involuntary Manslaughter thats a misnomer. Those crimes should not have that similar sound. The distinction between first and seconddegree murder is very slight. That deliberation element. If they are thinking first or seconddegree murder which is statistically probably unlikely, they are going to have a tough decision. I think more likely if theres a high degree of recklessness we may see the lowest charge, the Involuntary Manslaughter or voluntary manslaughter. Theres been some and i want mark and jeffrey to weigh in on this. Missouri law is pretty specific, correct me if im wrong, danny. If a Police Officer believes that that Police Officer was in danger for whatever reason, he potentially is allowed to go ahead and shoot and to until a suspect even if that suspect may be running away. Is that right . Theres a lot of law in this area. The Supreme Court case of tennessee versus garner suggests you can use force to apprehend a fleeing. This has been hotly contested. When i say a felon not convicted of a felony. If a Police Officer beliefs a felon is fleeing may and i stress may use deadly force to aprehen. Theres a disagreement of force authorized by missouri law compared to against what the Supreme Court allows in terms o. Police occupy a special place in our law. They are privileged to do what citizens cant do and thats initiate force, initiate an arrest. Because they have that privilege, they do in a way have special rules that dont apply to the rest of us. Very quickly, what about that . Its very true. If you look at missouri law it says you can use force against a fleeing felon but as danny said thats been modified and all Police Officers know in missouri its modified you cant do it just because they are fleeing. However when that person turns on you its that traditional selfdefense. You have to be in reasonable fear of great personal bodily injury. Thats what they have to focus on with wilsons actions. Guys stand by. Well continue the breaking News Coverage. Once again a decision has been reached by the ferguson grand jury in clayton, missouri. Much more of our breaking News Coverage right after this. On me . Do you have the coverage you need . Open enrollment ends december 7th. Dont put it off til later. Nows the time to get on a path that could be right for you. With Unitedhealthcare Medicare solutions. Call today to learn about the kinds of coverage we offer, including aarp medicarecomplete plans insured through unitedhealthcare. These Medicare Advantage plans can combine parts a and b, your hospital and doctor coverage. With part d Prescription Drug coverage, and extra benefits. All in one complete plan. For a low monthly premium, or in some areas no plan premium at all. Unitedhealthcare doesnt stop there. Youll have 0 copays for preventive services. 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Im don lemon in clayton, missouri near ferguson missouri. This is breaking news in the death of Michael Brown. The grand jury has reached a decision in the most controversial case in this country right now. U. S. And local Law Enforcement Officials Say an announcement is expected later today. As you know, that grand jury is made up of five women and seven men. They have been deliberating over whether white officer Darren Wilson should be charged for shooting and killing Michael Brown jr. A black teenager who was unarmed. The nine white and three black grand jurors have had the ability to see the coverage surrounding this case, all the Media Coverage whether they are watching or not thats up to them. Nine of the 12 must agree in order to indict officer wilson. We have a panel of legal minds to talk about this but first i want to get to evan perez who broke this. Tell us what you know. We know the grand jury decision is expected to be announced by the state prosecutor later today. Now this obviously has set in place a bunch of plans already in place warning to local officials to be ready for whatever the public reaction might be. We cho that theres a procedure in place. They will notify the judge. They have to notify the parties involved. Michael browns family will get some notification, n