Transcripts For CNNW The Lead With Jake Tapper 20190412

Now the acting secretary of the department of Homeland Security, that he, the president , would part mcaleenan if mcaleenan ever went to jail for denying entry to migrants, as one official paraphrased. Its not clear if the president was joking or serious. I asked the white house for a comment, they referred me to the department of Homeland Security. A dhs spokesman tells me that the president has never directed the acting secretary to do anything illegal. President trumps apparent lack of commitment to staying within the bounds of Immigration Law has been a constant theme in recent weeks. In fact, we also have some additional breaking news on the proposal President Trump has now confirmed hes considering transporting undocumented immigrants and releasing them in sanctuary cities, places which limit cooperation with federal immigration enforcement. The president tweeted earlier today, quote, we are, indeed, as reported, giving strong considerations to placing Illegal Immigrants in sanctuary cities. Only, the radical left always seems to have an open border, open arms policy, so this should make them very happy, unquote. Breaking right now on cnn, even though President Trump is pushing this today, administration lawyers told the white house months ago there are serious legal problems with this proposal. In february, according toobtain general counsel told the white house in writing that releasing migrants far from where they were apprehended could only happen if there were a, quote, strong missionrelated rationale, unquote, such as providing medical care for the migrants or overcrowding in a facility. That rationale does not include political retribution or trying to make a political point, which is what the president made clear in his tweet is his rationale. The general counsel, mr. Mitnick also noted that this could be selfdefeating, that transporting an undocumented immigrant to a place he or she has no ties could increase the chances that that individual would become a flight risk and skip deportation proceedings. Another warning to the white house from general counsel mitnick, do this and there will be lots of lawsuits, because this would violate, theoretically, the Due Process Rights of the migrants, or at least that would be the charge. One Senior Administration official told me that, quote, once the lawyers explained it, the issue was ultimately dropped, unquote. Back in february, until today, of course. When President Trump just tweeted it out. Cnns Abby Phillips joins me now to talk about this from the white house. Abby, lets talk about this sanctuary city proposal, which dhs general counsel mitnick said would run afoul of the law. How is the white house trying to explain this. Reporter well, the white house had spent the last 12 hours saying that this was not a proposal that was being considered any longer. They said it had only been briefly raised and then it had been rejected because of those legal issues that you just outlined. But then when the president tweeted that they were, in fact, reemerging with this idea of sending migrants to sanctuary cities, the white house now says something new. That they are asking their lawyers to look for new justifications for Going Forward with this policy. White house officials are saying that they are not trying to revive that old policy that was rejected by the lawyers, that they are looking at ways to do this legally and in a different way. The question for them now is, how can they do this without addressing that last point that mitnick wrote about in his guidance to the white house, which is about Due Process Rights. It seems that those issues would persist no matter how they manage to get the migrants from the border towns to sanctuary cities. And the white house is not addressing specifically what other ways that they could use in order to put this policy actually into place. It seems, jake, to be an attempt by the white house to square their earlier denials with the president s new tweets, trying to make it seem as if they are not contradictory, when, in fact, they are. Completely, of course. How are democrats reacting to this proposal to send undocumented immigrants and deposit them and release them in sanctuary cities, even if thats hundreds if not thousands of miles from where they were apprehended . Well, one of the democrats who was potentially being targeted by such a policy would have been House Speaker nancy pelosi, whose hometown, san francisco, was one of the cities being considered by the administration to move migrants. And pelosi was asked about it this morning. And she essentially said that this is a policy that is not worthy of the presidency of the United States and that the president continues to sort of fly in the face of the values of the country. Democrats are simply rejecting this out of hand. Theyre lumping it in with all of these other policies like the policy of separating children from their family at the border, that are a part of the Trump Administrations increasingly hard line approach to immigration. Theyre using this as a further example of how the president is simply going way too far on these issues, jake. Abby phillip at the white house, thank you so much. Lets chew on this with our panel. Jackie kucinich, lets go back to President Trump going up to the head of the customs and Border Protection, now the acting head of Homeland Security, Kevin Mcaleenan, a week ago today, and after telling the Border Agents, the president , stop enforcing the law, or stop honoring the law, keep these people from coming into this country, even though the law says you have to let them in, telling him, kevin, if you qgo to jail, dont worry, ill get you a pardon. Again, we dont know if he was joking or serious, but whats your response . Its shocking. Its definitely shocking to hear the president did that. And after he said that to the Border Patrol agents, their superiors said, you cant do that, with its against the law. You would hope that the officials that are put in these positions would just brush him aside, but the fact that they have to brush the president aside, its just were in, as usual, unchartered territory here. And the statement from the department of Homeland Security, i read it very carefully, does not deny that the conversation took place, just said that the president never directed him to break the law and that Kevin Mcaleenan would never break the law. Yeah, taos too bad we dont have a coequal branch of government that can summon the heads of agencies to testify before them and ask mr. Mcaleenan. I think the house should do that. But the house is out for two weeks. I wouldnt be ridiculous for the speaker to reconvene them or to, you know, allow for a Committee Hearing to be held, and ask for testimony, really pretty soon. This is a pretty serious maybe it was a joke. And if mr. Mcaleenan testifies that it was banter and he didnt take it seriously, fine. Let him testify under oath before a committee of congress. Whats your response, sabrina . What do you make of all of this . Well, it reinforces that the president s approach to enforcing Immigration Law is to violate exist lauing law. One, that hes reportedly encouraging officials to take steps that theyre not legally authorized to do. And two, he is considering proposals like returning to expanded family separations, even after a federal judge ordered his administration to halt those separations last year, and to immediately reunify those families. Weve heard him try to stop migrants from being able to claim asylum at the border, at all, which is a clear violation of international law. So, you know, its not clear that he actually is serious about resolving the problems in the immigration system. He seems more intent on creating chaos to score political points, especially as he looks ahead at his 2020 reelection campaign, and to perhaps reanimate his base, which, as we know, cares very deeply about the border. I think sabrinas right, karen. I mean, whats animating him is, he hates these laws. He hates Immigration Laws, so he is telling people, stop obeying them. Stop adhering to them. But hes also you know, this is why Business People should not run government, right . Because you are accountable. You cant just pick and choose which laws you want to follow and which ones Howard Schultz there. A little bit, arent i . But you cant just pick and choose which laws you want to follow and which ones you dont. Heres the thing, were having a policy conversation and this is what bill and i were actually here at this table last friday, due to your reporting, talking about, right, the visit to the border. The president views this as its all politics, right . This is all about stoking the base, the red meat, the build the wall, the praise that he got every time that he would in front of a crowd say, build the wall or lock her up. And so, he doesnt care what the law is, what the policy is, right . To him, its just, i want to keep my base happy, i want to keep demonizing these people. He doesnt care that hes using people as pawns. He. Doesnt care that it might be breaking the law. And frankly, whats so zm despicable about this is, we started to hear a little rumbling from your friends in congress, the republicans in congress, about some of the chopping of heads, heads rolling at the at dhs, yeah. So lets see. This is the moment for republicans to step in. Democrats are there and ready, but somebody has got to step in and say, you cant just blow up everything in service of your political agenda. Thats true, but the democrats do control the house, as youre well aware. And they should be happy to hold a hearing. And ceos really cant order their subordinates to break the law. And if they do and that comes out in a legal proceeding, ceos lose their jobs and some of them go to jail. Well, sdny is looking into that right now. But seriously people need to take i understand the politics of it, this is like the conversation we had on monday or wherever it was when you had the earlier report about the Border Agents yeah, the president telling Border Agents, dont let people into the country, and mcaleenan and others had to say, dont do that. So lets just have a hearing with mr. Mcaleenan and find out what the president said to him. Its weird, though, that mcaleenan, who respects the law, respects the rule of law, is somebody who is actually very respected by democrats and republicans, including hardline republicans, its weird that like, if he gets in any hot water here for pushing the law, for saying, we need to follow the law. Look at what happened to kirstjen nielsen, apparently behind the scenes, thats what they say, she was pushing back. And you did see today, though, in part that democratic mayors especially were not taking the bait when the president was tweeting about sanctuary cities. Sanctuary cities and he was going to send illegal aliens there. I mean, that is predicated that these people are all criminals, where you had the mayor say, listen, we would welcome migrants in our towns. So you did see that sort of shift and the trying to take some of the cynicism out of what he was putting out there, as we went through today. And speaking of that policy, sabrina. This is funny, around 11 30 a. M. , before the president tweeted that he was, indeed, confirming the story, the white house official told cnn, quote, this is a nonstory. The idea was briefly and informally raised and quickly rejected. And then you know, little more than an hour later, 12 30, President Trump, we are, indeed, as reported, giving strong consideration to placing Illegal Immigrants in sanctuary cities. No wonder that original white house official didnt want to put his or her name to it. Precisely because the white house wanted to put this story to rest and say, look, this is ant proposal that was floated, it was swiftly rejected, that was the end of discussion. But the president himself wants to engage on this fight, because he thinks the politics of immigration are good for him. Leave aside that its remarkable that he would suggest releasing thousands of detainees into cities just to score political points against democrats. To think that hardliners wouldnt want to that happen, but i know were like upside down at this point. Who knows what the implications are of what he wants to do. He has gone paf sanctuary cities to try to draw a link. Studies do to the draw a link between immigrants and crime. You can have a policy debate over how democrats and republicans site. But the whole purpose of sanctuary cities is not just to harbor undocumented immigrants, its to be able to create a line of communication between an undocumented community and law enforcement, so we can go forward and feel comfortable reporting crimes in their communities. Including crimes committed by undocumented immigrants, members of ms13, and this is one of the things that john mitnick, the dhs general counsel was trying to explain to President Trump, which is, if you do, if you move them thousands of miles away, they probably will not show up for their deportation hearings and they will be flight risks and you have more of a chance of them staying in the United States instead of being deported. Just like, if you cut off aid to the Central American countries and you make it worse, guess what . More people will come here, because youve made it worse and less likely that theyre going to stay. But again, were all talking like rational human beings who understand the implications of policy. This president has shown time and time again, he does not care. This is purely political, and i think in addition to the moral issues around how people are being treated, children in cages and all of that, what i would like to see democrats do, fine, hold a hearing. Thats great. But more importantly, we have to hold this president accountable, because republicans are not doing it. And i think the argument we have to make to the American People is that this man is this is a culture of lawlessness. This is a person who believes he gets to play by a whole different set of rules than the rest of us. Because otherwise, it doesnt matter. Thats the problem. Everyone, stick around. Coming up, secretary of state mike pompeo is going to react to the breaking news. President trump offering to pardon, jokingly, serious, we dont know, a top immigration official if he goes to jail for breaking Immigration Laws in the name of being tough on the border. Plus, head of the world bank, ambassador to the u. N. , these are just some of the jobs ivanka trump is qualified to, according to her father. So why didnt he appoint her to those positions . Stay with us. House in a neighborhood with a lot of other young couples. Then we noticed something. Strange. Oh, could you, uh, make me a burger . Poof youre a burger. [ laughter ] everyone acts like their parents. You have a tattoo. Yes. Fun. Do you not work . So, what kind of mower you got, seth . I dont know. Some kid comes over. We pay him to do it. But its not all bad. Someone even showed us how we can save money by bundling home and auto with progressive. Progressive cant protect you from becoming your parents. But we can protect your home and auto. Progressive cant protect you from becoming your parents. 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That the president , whether its the comments he made to Border Agents, stop letting people in, and they had to be told afterwards by mcaleenan and others, no, you have to let people in if they make it to u. S. Soil, thats the law. And then telling mcaleenan, if you go to jail, ill pardon you. There seems to be a real, just, disregard in not caring about what the Immigration Law is. Well, or the rule of law, generally, which is unfortunately not surprising nip longer. The one thought that occurred to me when i heard about this, jake, is suppose that had been a bunch of soldiers, activeduty soldiers who were told to disobey a law, and that would pose some real challenges for the command chain, if those were officers or soldiers in the military. So its obviously, uh, unconventional, but not surprising. Lets turn to the Mueller Report. We know that they are going to have four categories, according to bill barr, the attorney general, where fthe president where the attorney general will redact things. Grand jury material, sensitive sources and methods, information that could impact ongoing investigations, and information that could infringe on personal privacy and reputational interests of third parties. How much i know you dont know whats in the report and all of that stuff, but how much do you think can be redacted and still be a credible report . Well, let me speak to one of those four categories, which is intelligence sources and methods. Now, im takinge ing ing a cue two key indictments of federal and july of last year. The first one was against the Internet Research agency the russian troll farm. Right. And the second was against the gru the Russian Military intelligence. Military intelligence organization, which named and called out specific individuals. Frankly, i was taken aback by the level of detail in the fidelity of the information that was included in that, which gives people some insight into the information we had, when we did our Intelligence Community assessment, that we briefed out to president elect trump on a general january 6th. So taking a cue from that, im hopeful that there wont be a great deal of redactions from that one category of sources and methods. And the reason thats a big deal to me is that its my hope that the Mueller Report will be descriptive of the magnitude and depth of the russian interference in our political process. And i think that message needs to get out. I really cant speak to the others. Its my understanding in the case of grand jury proceedings that, you know, that could be worked around by a court order, at least for the benefit of the congress. I dont know about the public. But the one im most concerned about, and most interested in is intelligence sources and methods and the degree to which there would be revelations about the russian meddling. Deputy attorney general Rod Rosenstein is defending his and bill barrs handling of the Mueller Report redaction process and the whole process, really, telling the wall street journal, quote, hes being as forthcoming as he can, bill barr, so this notion that hes trying to mislead people i think is just completely bizarre. What do you think . Do you think attorney general barr is being straightforward or is he trying to mislead people . I think i would probably defer on answering that question until whatever comes out comes out. And then i think i would be able to make a better judgment, perhaps, about what you know, how much black space there is and how much the redaction pen was used. I know one novelty here will be color coding, so you can tell which of the four categories were affected. So i think personally, well just have to wait and see until we see the actual content of what is released, particularly to the public. So youre giving the attorney general the benefit of the doubt for now. For right now. The Washington Post is reporting about the extent of the Russian Campaign to target Bernie Sanders supporters and help elect donald trump by trying to convince them that they shouldnt vote for Hillary Clinton. This is obviously back in 2016. Were you aware of this Russian Influence Campaign to the extent that we now know. No, we werent. We had a general appreciation, general understanding of what the russians were doing, the magnitude of it, how aggressive it was, multidimensional, and all of that. I dont think we fully or at least i didnt, fully appreciated the depth of activity on social media. Now, the business about brrpds brrnds, i think, is illustrative of the sophisticated understanding that the russians had of our whole of the political dynamics in this country and how they tried to exploit them to hurt as much as they can could, Hillary Clinton and help donald trump. And this is just one more detailed illustration of that intent on the part of the russians. Retired general and former director of national intelligence, james clapper, always good to see you. Thanks, jake. We have more on our breaking news. Mike pompeo will join us live to discuss immigration and much more, thats next. Come on. Come on. Come on. buzzer sounds to keep your sandwich freaky fresh®, jimmy johns only delivers within 5 minutes of the store. No and not farther. Its nothing personal. Its because sandwich. I felt i couldnt be at my best wifor my family. C, in only 8 weeks with mavyret, i was cured and left those doubts behind. I faced reminders of my hep c every day. 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Its great to be with you, jake. Thank you, sir. I know you werent present for the conversation between the president and commissioner mcaleenan, but would you know or what do you say to Senior Administration officials when they say to you, boy, President Trump is so frustrated by these Immigration Laws, he doesnt seem towns that we have to adhere to them even if he doesnt like them . Ive been in lots of conversations on the enormous crisis at our border and i have watched this president try to use every tool in our tool kit. We have done everything that we can. Weve stayed within the law. We need congress to make changes to that, so that we can stop this humanitarian and security crisis. And every meeting ive been in has been very focused on that. The president today admitted hes considering trying to moving undocumented migrants to sanctuary cities and seemed to acknowledge it was for political reasons, to retaliate against democrats. Why do you think thats the right policy, if you do, in fact . Jake, im here in santiago, chile. I came on to talk with you today about a enormously important decision to help keep americans safe outside the threat our sailors, marines, that have protected the americans for years, because of the policies that are no longer threatened by a rogue court at the International Criminal court. Thats my focus for this morning and thats what i hope we get a chance to talk about today. All right. Let me turn to that question and ill come back to a couple others that i have. The International Criminal court today, said that they will not investigate the u. S. For allegations of alleged war crimes in afghanistan. Amnesty International Said this was a, quote, craven capitulation to washingtons bullying and threats and an abandonment of the victims. Why do you disagree with Amnesty International . If somebody committed a war crime, why should they not be held responsible . I should note that this isnt just about americans, its also about afghans, as well. Thats exactly right, jake. Its about a much broader people. Lets be very clear, though, with respect to america in particular, we didnt sign the treaty for the icc. It has no jurisdiction over our people. Its been trying to exert it. You know this, jake, as well as i do. When americans misbehave, whether its our military, intelligence officers, we have a robust democratic process that holds them accountable. Youve seen us do that for those that misbehave. There is in no way any need for the icc to intervene. Frankly, this would have been a very political effort to try to take on people who were acting on behalf of the United States in ways that were completely consistent with our laws and try to hold them accountable in ways that were completely inappropriate. Im very pleased the icc made this decision today. Its the right one. Know that if americans are found to have done things that are unlawful or against the laws of war, the u. S. Will always hold them accountable. Ty cc is not the way to do it. Im glad they recognized that. Youre in chile right now, let me ask you a question, if i can, about our immigration policy. President trump has cut aid to honduras, el salvador, and guatemala, the socalled northern triangle countries in central america. He says theyre not doing enough on immigration. Your own state Department Suggests that the aid is actually having a tremendous effect. In el salvador, the aid went in and homicides went down and the number of people fleeing el salvador went down. Isnt it selfdefeating for the United States to cut those aid dollars . Doesnt it just end up sending more migrants, more caravans to the United States . Jake, thats the liberal theory, for sure. Lets just go back to basic reality. Its what we try to do in the Trump Administration. Hundreds of millions of dollars spent in honduras and guatemala and el salvador and you see the results. You see the results yesterday, you saw them last week, you see people fleeing those nations, throwing more money at this problem, which is what i think your question is suggesting, theres no reason to believe that we get any outcome that is different than the one that were suffering from today. So what the Trump Administration is trying to do is saying, hey, were prepared to help, were prepared to engage, were prepared to support. But you, you have to take serious efforts, whether its in guatemala, el salvador, in nicaragua, in mexico, for that matter, too. We need those nations to ensure that their people arent making this dangerous transit across mexico and coming into our country illegally. Thats what were asking these countries to do. When they begin to do that, america support will begin. The statistics come from your state department. And among the individuals who support the idea of foreign aid to those countries are the last department of Homeland Security secretary, kirstjen nielsen, and the current acting secretary, Kevin Mcaleenan. They think that that money helps keeps migrants in those countries. Im not sure that you think theyre liberal. I think that President Trumps decision makes perfect sense. Were going to get this right, jake. Were going to stop spending hundreds of millions of dollars of u. S. Taxpayer misunderstand and ending up with the same result weve ended up for far too long. I think the data that you described proves this point. It describes that what we were doing simply didnt work. Well, the datas i saw jake, you know the old saw, right, if what youre doing doesnt work, youd ought to think about another path forward. Youd agree with that, wouldnt you, jake . I would, but what i got from border and custom protection folks using state department data, money went to el salvador, homicides went down by 50 and fewer migrants were coming from el salvador. I take your point that not all the governments of the northern triangle countries are doing everything you want them to do, but it seems to me based on your agencys data that you giving money to el salvador was helping to reduce violence in that country and helping to reduce migrants coming from el salvador to the United States. Jake, the american taxpayers have been enormously generous to each of those three countries for an awfully long time. Were prepared to continue to do that, but weve got to see things change. Weve got to see reality, real outcomes on the ground. Jake, when we see that, i promise you, americans will continue to be generous. Will continue to make sense with how we spend our dollars and well get good outcomes. Its not enough to spend money and having wishful thinking. President trump understands that we need to see actual change, actual good outcome. When we see those, when we see those nations engage in activities that reduce the outflow of migration from their nations, the American People will continue to be incredibly generous. They always have been. Do you have any concerns lets switch to the middle east im sorry, lets identify your bailiwick is the world here. Lets go a little bit to the east. Do you have any concerns about the comments of Prime Minister benjamin netanyahu, who was just reelected, made right before he was reelected, vowing to annex the west bank. Do you think that might hurt the pursuit of peace, the twostate solution proposal that Jared Kushner and others, including you, have been working so hard on . I dont. I think that the vision that well lay out is going to represent a significant change from the model thats been used. Again, i talked about it in central america. Weve had a lot of ideas for 40 years. They did not deliver peace between the israelis and the palestinians. Our mission set the to put forward a vision. Ultimately, the israelis and the Palestinian People will have to make this, resolve this for themselves. But our idea is to put forward a vision that has ideas that are new, that are different, that are unique, that tries to reframe and reshape whats been an intractable problem. That multiple administrations have grappled with, multiple administrations in israel, as well. We hope that we can get to a better place. Everyone wants this conflict resolved. We want a better life for the vi israelis without this conflict and a better life for the Palestinian People, both in the west bank and in gaza. Im being told i have a deadline and i have to get off because other things to do, secretary of state mike pompeo, we always enjoy you coming on and taking our questions. Thanks so much for your time and safe travels. Thank you, jake. Thank you, sir. 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Because when youre ready for what comes next, the only direction is forward. A looming question in our 2020 lead today. How does one go from this south bend of indiana to have energetic, innovative, forwardlooking free agent mayor in Pete Buttigieg. And mayor, thank you. To this i hope that pete will offer more to the American People than a tax on my Christian Faith or a attacks on the president. Today, the Vice President and former governor of indiana and democratic president ial candidate and mayor of south bend, indiana, former colleagues, and according to mike pence, friends are locked in a battle over their religious beliefs and lbgtq right. And as jessica dean reports, its a feud thats years in the making. Two hoosiers, one, the Vice President , the other, a president ial hopeful. Both in a feud over faith. The truth of the matter is that all of us have our own religious convictions. Pete has his convictions, i have mine. Reporter Vice President mike pence, a former indiana governor, reacting to criticism from south bend, indiana, mayor and 2020 democratic hopeful, Pete Buttigieg. Im not critical of his faith. Im critical of bad policies. I dont have a problem with religion. Im religious, too. I have a problem with religion being used as a justification to harm people. And especially if the lbgtq community. Reporter pence telling cnns dana bash he doesnt have a problem with buttigieg. I considered him a friend. Reporter but then taking a swipe at the rising democratic star. I hope that pete will offer more to the American People than attacks on my Christian Faith or attacks on the president as he seeks the highest office in the land. Reporter and to buttigiegs larger point about pences beliefs regarding homosexuality, the Vice President repeatedly would not answer if he thought being gay was a sin. Im a biblebelieving christian. And that belief that being gay is a sin. My wife and i are biblebelieving christianchrist. The idea of it being a sin to be gay . Dana, im a biblebelieving christian. I draw my truth from gods word. Reporter buttigieg whos episcopalian married husband chastin in an Indiana Church last year. He talks openly about his faith on the campaign trail. When i talk about my faith, its not because i believe it should be imposed on others, but it does guide me. Buttigieg lobbed the first valley in his back and forth with pence during a cnn town hall with jake lalst month. How could he allow himself to become the cheerleader of the porn star presidency. He again went after mike pence last week during an lbgtq fundraiser. I wish the mike pences of the world would understand, if you have a problem with who i am, your problem is not with me, your quarrel is my creator. Reporter this goes back to 2015 when pence was governor and p buttigieg was mayor of south bend. Pence backed the religious freedom restoration act. The backlash was intense, as critics argued it could be used to discriminate against the lbgt community. In his book, buttigieg called it, quote, prejudiced in the name of christianity. Four years later, hes making the same argument. Im not interested in feuding with the Vice President , but if he wanted to clear this up, he could come out today and say hes changed his mind that it shouldnt be legal to discriminate against anybody in this country for who they are, thats all. Buttigieg will be back in south bend on sunday for an event his campaign is billing as a special announcement, where hes expected to officially enter the 2020 race. Jake . All right, jessica dean, thanks so much. So, here we have Pete Buttigieg saying, if you have an issue, its not with me, its with my creator, about his homosexuality. And you have mike pence saying, i think his issue is with the buttigiegs issue is with the first amendment. What do you think . What do you make of it all . I think this is really going to be the this is really what the fight in 2020 is going to be about, which is two very different competing visions about our country. Pete buttigieg is talking about a country that is loving and inclusive. And unfortunately, donald trump and mike pence are about exclusion and scapegoating and using religion, weaponizing it, frankly. Weaponizing religion in the way theyve used the muslim ban to keep people out, and theyre trying to use faith as a way to justify bigotry. And frankly, as you know, jake, its personal for me, because some of the same arguments have been used about interracial marriage against gay marriage. Some christian arguments. Some christian arguments. Yes. And you know, its not thats not what the bible teaches us. And i think what mayor pete is doing also is to say, i will take these take on these culture wars and these fights and i will win. So lets not forget, mike pence kind of got caught when he passed that religious freedom bill or signed that religious freedom bill in indiana. He was surrounded by several people who were antigay marriage. So while he was saying it was about religious freedom, these guys behind it that made their business trying to stop gay marriage for a good part of their careers. And there was a huge backlash to that. So theres also that history between buttigieg and mike pence, being both in the state as that was going on. So while mike pence does say this is about the first amendment, hes sort of been in a position where it really wasnt about the first amendment. But sabrina, because nobodys going to do it, ill be Vice President pences advocate here. He has said, if he was at a restaurant and he saw a gay couple being denied service at that restaurant, he would never eat at that restaurant again. But he also thinks that people should have the legal right if theyre a christian and observant christians to not have to make a cake for a gay marriage or that sort of thing. Is he i understand the Public Opinion is not necessarily with him, but it was with him in indiana at the time. It was with him to some degree, but then you saw those businesses boycott the state of indiana, at least in the aftermath of the religious freedom law that he signed, and forced him to go back and fix it. And i think that the challenge with Vice President mike pence is that he himself has put faith in the center of his identity throughout his political career. And that has now opened him up to charges of hypocrisy. I think what mayor Pete Buttigieg is doing is, hes not actually attacking mike pences faith, hes attacking the use of faith as a vehicle to then discriminate against the lbgtq or to try to restrict womens reproductive health. So i think whats really interesting about that is that democrats for a long time havent really tackled issues of faith. The conversation on faith and politics has long been associated with the religious right. And so in some ways, Pete Buttigieg is also challenging those norms and trying to embrace faith as a part of the political identity of the left so they can make their own arguments around equality. And hes being aggressive about this, the mayor. He is, but im struck by what neither is arguing. Mike, what happened to samesex marriage . That became the law of the land in 2015. Most conservatives were against it. Most republicans were against it. There was a 54 court decision, gone. Gone. Not even raised by anyone in the Trump Administration or really even by any Republican Office holder that i know of, except for a couple of french people. Thats pretty astonishing. Roe v. Wade remains very controversial, i think correctly so, 45 years after it was handed down. Thats just accepted. It will be part of our fabric for the foreseeable future, which is interesting as a fact. And on the other hand, Pete Buttigieg seems to acknowledge that religious liberty means that mike pences minister does not have to administer a samesex wedding. That there will be questions about religious schools, how to draw that line is hard. I regard this debate as actually a pretty civil debate and easier to reconcile. I do not believe that gay rights or samesex marriage or the panoply around that is going to be as bitterly divisive an issue in 2020 as one would have thought just a couple of years ago. I think if you look at the record of the Trump Administration, they have absolutely tried to weaponize issues of choice and issues of the lbgt community, no question, and no i have no doubt theyll do it again in 2020. But bills right, no ones talking about repealing or changing the law. But there is a transgender law in the military. The roles envisioned for ivanka thats raising some eyebrows. 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Changes might be a factor in the discrepancy, though it said nothing in this world can be certain except for death and taxes, come monday President Trump will most certainly be claiming he cannot release his newest tax returns, because theyre under outsiaudit. In the politics lead, ivanka trump, white house senior adviser, first daughter, former ceo, but we could have been calling her madame ambassador trump, or the head of the world bank from what her father, President Trump, told the atlantic magazine. Or according to him, maybe one day, president ivanka trump. As cnns kate bennett reports, some in the Trump Administration have a different name for her, but its a lot less flattering than the ones we just mentioned. Reporter ivanka trump struggling to keep her personal brand in tact as her public persona takes a hit after working in the white house. This according to a story in the atlantic. The white house has not always been a friendly place for her, even with her dad as boss. Wherever jared had any difficulty with me and a couple of points, he would send in a real power named ivanka. And she would call me and she would say, daddy, you dont understand, you must do this, and i said, all right. Reporter the familiarity didnt go over well with former chief of staff john kelly, who said, more than once, he felt ivanka and her husband, Jared Kushner, who never held government or diplomacy jobs prior to the white house, were quote, playing government. Kelly was brutal, according to a source close to ivanka, quoted in the atlantic, saying, he kind of walked in and looked at ivanka like, what the bleep is barbie doing in the west wing. Trump, who the story says sometimes calls his daughter the nickname baby during white house meetings, doesnt share kellys feelings, telling the atlantic he thinks ivanka would have been great at leading the world bank because she is, quote, good with numbers, or that she could have been u. N. Ambassador after nikki haleys departure. I think ivanka would be incredible. That doesnt mean id use you know, id pick her, because youd be accused of nepotism, even though im not sure theres anybody more competent in the world, but thats okay. Reporter trump even saying, quote, if she ever wanted to run for president , i think shed be very, very hard to beat. What her qualifications are for that role, again, remain unclear. But what ivanka hasnt been is the moderate voice in the white house. Instead, ivanka has lately channeled her portfolio to important women and familycentric issues. All parents work. Reporter like the Child Tax Credit and paid family leave. Most recently, Global Economic growth for female business owners. Today the white house is launching an exciting new initiative, the Womens Global Development and prosperity initiative. Atlantic writer elena plot says ivanka believes her father is never in the wrong. She really, as my source says, retains a view that her father is good and only good. Reporter her fathers loyalty to his daughter is just as strong. So i just want to thank you, honey, great job. Really great job. The likability issue is more than just fluff for ivanka, like most trumps, her world before politics was all about her brand. The question remains if shell still have that sale ability after the white house. Kate bennett, thanks so much. Tune in this sunday morning to state of the union, my guest will be president ial candidate Eric Swalwell and florida senator rick scott. Thats at 9 00 a. M. Eastern and noon eastern. Our coverage on cnn continues right now. Have a fantastic weekend. Ill see you sunday morning. Happening now, breaking news. Political pawns. President trump admits hes considering releasing undocumented immigrants into sanctuary cities as retribution against democrats, even though administration lawyers have warned against such a move. Democrats accuse the president of using human beings as pawns. Pardon promise. Officials tell cnn that when President Trump visited the border last week, he promised a pardon to the then chief of customs and Border Protection if he were sent to jail for blocking migrants from entering the u. S. New ties to russia, with wikileaks founder Julian Assange under arrest for allegedly plotting to help steal military secrets, an alleged collaborate is also now