Be an arbiter. He doesnt want scientists to be the arbiter. He wants himself and his white house to be the arbiter of fact. Their storiied careers with headlines that changed history. I want this to be in my obituary. Welcome to the axe files. I figured i would introduce you. Welcome to the Constitution Center in philly. We chose this place not just because its roughly halfway between your two cities, but because of what the constitution means and the meaning of that First Amendment. You are the editors of two of the most influential papers in this country. You are also the heads of news organizations that the president of the United States has called fake news. You lead a corps of journalists who he described as enemies of the people. Stick with us, dont believe the crap you see from these people, the fake news. How have you recalibrated to deal with this volatile president . He has not changed the fundamentals. Its important to make that clear. He has not changed the fact that we are independent and that our job is to ask hard questions of not only him but his most powerful opponents. That hasnt changed. In my newsroom and i suspect the same in martys, we have discussions we didnt have before. We have discussions about how do you cover a president who obviously does not always tell the truth . How often do you use the word lie . How do you make sure when you use words like that they dont lose their import . Those are debates we have not had in previous administrations. I think we have to be more transparent about our work and we are trying to be more transparent about our work, show more of that work, how did we obtain that information, what are the statements in our stories based upon. Thats a necessity these days is that we almost need to make an argument for the work were doing. Theres a high level of skepticism. We have a president who has a penchant for making stuff up. How do you grapple with that question of, well, do we just call it a lie . We use the word lie, i think, just a couple times. Significantly, most people dont remember when we used it and what the lie was. Which tells me that we have to be very careful not to throw the word around so loosely that people dont know what were talking about. I would rather show what the president says and then as the case warrants show what the truth is than to have readers so preoccupied with whether or not the New York Times uses the word lie that they dont remember what was said. Marty, your Fact Checkers have been very busy over the last busier than ever. Just a few weeks ago you released your latest tally or the paper did of 4,229 false or misleading claims in 559 days in office. Some of those are blatant. Some of them are more subjective. Misleading. Truthfulness in government i think is extraordinarily important. I think its important for us to call out when people are being misleading or actually lying. Thats what we endeavor to do there. Let me ask you bluntly, do you think the president habitually lies . Well, you know, this gets into the use of the word lies. He has to know what he is saying is false. Its hard sometimes to get into his head. I agree with dean that its important for us to focus on the actual substance of whats false rather than the language that is used. Does it matter whether the New York Times or the Washington Post used the word lie 10 times, 20 times or does it matter their fact checker found 4,000 examples of misleading 4,229. Does it matter what the use of the word is . Whatever his strengths and weaknesses, one thing for sure, he understands modern media and he understands how to dominate the news and how to change the meme with a tweet or a statement. Do you feel like you in pavlovian fashion have to follow him . I think were learning as we go along. I think this is a new situation for all of us. We were learning throughout the campaign and were learning still during the administration. Theres no guidebook for this kind of a presidency. I do think that the president used this to some degree as a performance. Neil postman wrote a book abusing ourselves to death a couple decades ago about how we are moving toward the show quality of politics and the show has become the thing. I think the president actually understands that and uses that to his advantage. Some of the tweets are designed as distractions and some of the tweets are actually a window into his mind. A lot of the tweets are a precursor to actual policy. Its important that we Pay Attention to them. In the beginning it was a novelty. We both grew up in an era whenever the president said something it was news. Because president s didnt say things that often. To have a president i can tell you just to interrupt for one second as someone who worked for a president , we thought every word mattered, that president s speak and they can send armies marching and markets tumbling and we better be cognizant of the words he uses. We came in with a set of beliefs. It was novel. I think that we have learned over time that not every tweet is as important. The president tweets five or six times a day. You condition treat each one the same. I would use the example of the one most recently where he actually described one of his former aides as a dog. They do give a sense of the character of the president. And they do give a sense of how he deals with people. I dont think thats unimportant. One thing that is striking about you guys is you both have great personal stories. Marty, you are the son of jewish immigrants who originated in germany. You are the son of creole parents from new orleans, a person of color. We have a president who has said incendiary things about immigrants, about race. How do you as people, how do you process that . How does that impact how you make decisions . Thats a good one. Look, i mean, my father was born in germany. He went to what was then palestine. My mother was born in what was then palestine, became israel. They left that country. They were in paris for a couple of years and then came to the United States. Why did they come here . My father believed in the american dream. Thats what he wanted. He loved the opportunity of the United States. Certainly for myself, i feel pretty accepting of lots of different kinds of people. Recognize that this country is made of a lot of people who came from a lot of Different Countries and a lot of different backgrounds. I believe that people are making the contributions that my parents made to this country. When you hear this an antiimmigrant talk from the president and taking steps to reduce immigration and so on, how do you react to that personally . Im the son of an immigrant. Full disclosure. Right. I think that we are professionals and we treat this as journalists. We in so many instances set aside whatever our personal feelings are about things. The American Public has the right to debate policy about immigration and all of that. I believe in the democratic process. There should be an honest debate about these sorts of things. What always concerns me and its not just relevant with regard to the immigration debate, is if you start demonizing people and drawing sweeping generalizations of who people are. Because we know as both as individuals and journalists that when you actually dive into it, when you Start Talking to people, they done ft fit again ja generalizations. Im sensitive to the demonization of groups. I grew up as a black kid in the segregated south. Im sensitive to when the president or anybody makes sweeping statements about groups of people. You mentioned he called omarosa this past week a dog. Did you view that as a racist comment . You know, its funny. I have two reactions to that. My first reaction is when somebody calls a black woman a dog, my visceral reaction as a black man is to feel this the pain and anger of a black man. Here is where journalism comes in. He actually calls everybody a dog. He has called ted cruz a dog. Yes, i feel it more because of who she was. But i also dig a little bit deeper and find that he uses that kind of language sort of pretty openly with a lot of people. Lesley stahl had Something Interesting to report. She said off camera after she was interviewing, i think then president elect trump, she asked him why he bashed the media so relentlessly. I do it so when you write negative stories about me, no one will believe you. He has had success with that with his base of supporters. I think that was an honest answer on his part. He wants to disqualify the press as an independent arbiter of fact. Thats what he is trying to do. You remember at some point he said, if you see any negative polls on me, they are fake. He quoted the polls when they were favorable. When the polls are unfavorable, he says they are fake. He does not want there to be an independent arbiter of fact. He doesnt want the press to be the arbiter. He doesnt want scientists to be that arbiter or the court. He doesnt want the intelligence agencies to be the arbiter. He wants himself and his white house to be the arbiter of fact. That is exactly what he is trying to achieve. I think he was incredibly honest in that answer. On this notion of the white house being the arbiter of fact, the White House Briefing used to be a place where reporters would go and get facts and get official administration policy. Is that still true . Less so, to be honest. I think there have been numerous instances in which the two White House Press secretaries acknowledged they knew that they said things that werent true. Less so i think we have to cover it. Theres a clamor for us to not even go to the press briefings. I sort of understand that. Again, this is the person, the press secretary, who speaks for the most powerful human being in the world. I dont think its our job to make a political statement by not showing up. I think our job is to find stuff out, our job is to listen, test, fact check, do the best we can to make sure they are telling the truth. Its interesting last week, the kwquestion came up as to whether the president used the n word. The press secretary couldnt guarantee that was a remarkable moment in the life of press secretaries. To leave open the possibility that the president said one of the most vile things and it might be on tape was a remarkable moment. Im glad we were there. This leads me to the question, how concerned you are about the safety of your reporters right now. Your publisher met with the president recently and delivered a message about this rhetoric of enemy of the people and so on. We have seen some of the some of the scenes at his rallies. You know, we have a lot of fake news back there. The enemy of the people i call them. Im deeply concerned. Not only concerned by the way about what happens inside the United States at some of the volatile trump rallies. I think the president has sent a message to despots abroad that you can disrespect the press. We have had president s attack the press. We never had a president go on foreign soil and attack the press. We have to manage newsrooms with people who operate if a third world. We manage newsrooms with people who cover governments that dont like the press. Its a i cant tell you how concerning that this press has told those governments, you can beat up the press, you can call them enemies of the people. How can my correspondent in cairo, who covers a government thats an tig nistagonistic to press, how can he do that when we have a president of the United States who says the things he says about the press . Have there been threats to reporters in your newsroom that you have had to act on . Sure. I cant get into details. Certainly during the campaign, there were an extraordinary number of threats, great concern about the security of our people who were covering the campaign. Now even during the administration, similar concerns. I just spoke a few weeks ago at an event to memorialize the five individual at the Capital Gazette who were killed. I think four out of five were journalists. There was a person with a grievance against journalists who walked into their office and started shooting. Certainly, im not saying the president is responsible for that. Theres nothing to connect the president to that. On the other hand, i think that the president should not be creating an environment that describes the press as an enemy, as disgusting, as scum, as the lowest form of humanity and then the lowest form of life. As traitors to the country. I mean, thats the most extreme rhetoric that you can imagine. You guys have this weird symbiotic relationship with him. He attacks the press. The press is vigorous in reporting on him. Even though he calls you failing, you have gained exponentially in terms of readership since this administration began. For all of the attacks on the press, by the way, by this president , its got to Say Something that our audiences have gotten larger. That means that people in this fake news and the madeup stuff, when people want to find out the truth, they come to these institutions that have set themselves up as a standard bearer and institutions that try to get at the truth and as institutions that have held on to their soul. I think thats great. Coming up next, on the axe files what are some of the other important stories that you think have been impactful over the last two years . If i could use one not about trump yes. He will be disappointed. Hey, what do you guys wanna listen to . Ooh, hiphop reggaeton. Edm. What about bubble trance . Bubble what . Bubble trance. Its a thing. man oh. My point is, everyones got different taste. Thats why verizon lets you mix and match your family unlimited plan so everyone gets the plan they want, without paying for things they dont. And right now, the whole family can get six months of free apple music on verizon. Oh. So lets play that reggaeton. 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Some side effects can lead to dehydration, which may worsen kidney problems. I discovered the potential with ozempic®. Oh oh oh ozempic® vo ask your Healthcare Provider if ozempic® is right for you. One of the questions i have is what were the failures of the news media in terms of anticipating what was going to happen in 2016 when on the day after the election, did you find yourselves asking that question, what did we miss . I think the story we didnt tell enough were the stories of events that led up to donald trump. I dont think we had a handle on how much angry there was in the country, how much desire there was for change, how upset people were for the elites and the lingering effects of the economic crisis. I dont think we got that. I dont think thats a political story but a story of understanding the country. I think its also a story of where we live. Gary hart, who you both remember, president ial candidate, told me something years ago that stuck with me. He said washington is always the last to get the news. And ive sensed it in the years i spent in washington. I felt disconnected from the experience of people in the rest of the country, but weve become so reliant on polls. Ive quoted them. It feels like were covering polls and not people. Right. I totally agree with that. Washington is a bubble. Ive only been there for five and a half years so im not a creature of washington by any means. I was always skeptical of washington. Always felt that washington didnt really understand the rest of the country. And i think one of our jobs as journalists is not only to convey whats happening in washington to the rest of the country, but actually more importantly to tell washington whats happening in the country, and i think thats our special obligation. Now we have these analytics as well as polling and people were looking at where the thermometer was on the race and what the percentage chances were that Hillary Clinton would win and they were pretty high. Is that a service . Were people sort of unintentionally misled . For us it was the famous needle that made us think she couldnt be beat. I think i would do that needle over again. I think the presentation was too simplistic. I do think it does a service. I do think that first off it generates interest in politics. Generates interest in the campaigns. I do think we want people engaged and deeply interested in politics and, look, you would have to say yourself i think part of politics is a little bit of sport. Yes. Its a sport with a much more important outcome than an nfl game. But there is a little bit of sport. I dont mind people paying attention to that as long as we give them the other stuff too. As long as we give them the whole array of coverage from out in the country, coverage of the economy, and coverage of the impact that it has on peoples lives. Do you think you guys covered her differently because of a presumption that she was going to win . I know youve been criticized because you were deeply into the email story. Didnt cover the russia story. I actually dont think so. I mean, i think thats an easy thing to think. But i think if you looked at the coverage of donald trump, it was really aggressive. You know, before the access Hollywood Tape we wrote about donald trump and women. We wrote about his tax returns. We did write about russias attempt to influence the election here and elsewhere. I think there was pretty aggressive coverage of donald trump. I think anybody that says theyre shocked at the donald Trump Presidency was not reading the mainstream press. Theres nothing about the donald Trump Presidency that does not resemble the coverage that donald trump got. You know, we talked earlier about what your role is in covering this administration, and i think of some stories that may not have been known but for the reporting that youve done, the june 6th meeting at trump tower between donald trump jr. And the others and the russians and the emails that led up to that was a the New York Times story. Well never know because bob muller is in washington. Earlier administration reported on michael flynn. He may have been National Security adviser for some time but for the fact that you wrote about that. What are some of the other important stories that you think have been impactful over the last two years . If i could use one thats not about trump yes. Ill be disappointed but you certainly will be. The Harvey Weinstein story which opened up a whole debate about powerful men and their abuses of women i think was a story that would not have happened were it not for the New York Times, the new yorker and the Washington Post. That is a debate the country would not be having were it not for the press. To me, i think thats the most powerful example of Public Service journalism. Something that not only to be frank importantly knocked some important men off their perches but caused the country to have an important amount of soul searching about those relationships. You raise a point. Does trump get too much coverage . Are we too trump sent ricentric . He is good for readership. He is good for cable tv. Is there too much coverage of him and are you concerned a little bit about trump exhaustion . Well, there is a trump exhaustion factor. From time to time we sit back and think are we doing too much on him . He does hold a position that represents probably the most powerful position on this earth so its not this is not someone we can ignore. His actions, like them or not, have worldwide impact as we see every single day. And so i think that we have a real obligation to cover him thoroughly and cover him indepth to hold him accountable. Just reference to your previous question. We disclose the president himself turned over intelligence to the russians when he was visited by the foreign minister and the Russian Ambassador in the white house. And that wasnt the intelligence agencies shocked at that. It made clear that this intelligence came from israel and so that would not have been disclosed were it not for the Washington Post. Coming up next this investigation really rocked the establishment. It became the subject of a movie. Youre an unlikely movie star i have to say. I wouldnt say that. He skipped orientation for the beach . He takes after me. Join tmobile, buy an iphone 8, get an iphone 8 on us. Well, esurance makes it simple and affordable. In fact, drivers who switched from geico to esurance saved an average of 412. Thats auto and Home Insurance for the modern world. Esurance. 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Now more businesses, in more places, can afford to dream gig. Comcast, building americas largest gigspeed network. As you guys know, i grew up in the newspaper business back at the Chicago Tribune when local news was still thriving. You guys grew up in journalism, as well, and you were both kids when you started reporting, and so this is a lifelong passion. Were still kids. Okay. Ill give you that. What attracted you to reporting . You know, its hard to trace these sorts of things. As we were talking earlier, my parents were immigrants to the country. They were keenly interested in what was happening in this country and what was happening around the world. So that was part of the environment in which i grew up as an interest in Public Affairs and a news habit and thats what got me interested. You went off to college. You got a business degree. You were studying journalism as well. Did you get the business degree to placate your parents . No. My parents let me do whatever i wanted to do as long as i went out of the house and earned my own way. You dropped out of college and went home to new orleans and became a reporter. I stumbled on journalism. I had never been on an airplane until i went to columbia on scholarship. I never went out of louisiana. I was so homesick, i took time to work as an intern at the newspaper. I thought this was it. I fell in love with it. It was a dramatic opening up of the world to me. I didnt realize until i was reading up for this conversation that you were the recipient of maybe one of the greatest quotes in american political history. Not the most tasteful quote. Tell that story. Im used to politicians that say weird things. I want this to be my obituary so i repeat it every chance i get. I was covering the governor of louisianas return to politics. His nickname was the silver zipper. That did not apply to his mouth. It did not apply to his mouth. I was on the back of the campaign bus, just the two of us, that had him with 60 percent of the vote. I said any way you lose this election . He said the only way i lose my election is if im caught in bed with a dead girl or a live boy. I got that quote. I can make sure its in my obituary. Did he know he was on the record . He said stuff like this all the time. You became the Business Editor at l. A. Times at 21. You went to the Chicago Tribune. You both turned on that editorial track. I thought reporting was the best job in journalism. Why did you guys decide you wanted to be editors . I think reporting probably still is the best job in journalism. I was pulled into it well before i expected to be. It wasnt a conscious decision on my part so i was sucked into it. I enjoyed having an impact on the entire product. Everything that we were offering the public as opposed to just one individual story. I heard your interview with jayz, and it struck me that heres a guy who would like to be out there reporting. I had no desire to be an editor. I was the National Investigative reporter for the New York Times. I was having a blast. And they forced me to become an ed editor. The executive editor called me in and said wed like you to become deputy metro editor. I said no thanks. Thats flattering. He said would you think about it over the weekend . I said i dont want to do it. He said would you think it a couple more days . I think he thought i was someone that would be good at managing people. He thought of me as someone who maybe had larger vision. Are the days when you guys say, man, i wish i was i want to jump in and report this story . Absolutely. We can say that in stereo. Yes. You went to the miami herald and covered two huge stories down there. Gonzalez and the recount. Committed a ton of your papers resources to trying to find out who actually one florida in 2000 in the gore bush race. Turned out to be bush, right . Absolutely. Then you went to the boston globe. You promoted an investigation into pedophilia in the church. It became the subject of a movie. The church found out about it and did nothing. We havent committed any longterm investigative resources to the case. Thats the kind of thing your team would do. Youre an unlikely movie star i have to say. But this investigation really rocked the establishment in boston where the archdiocese of boston is so powerful and you found pervasive patterns of abuse of children. I thought of you this week when there were revelations in pennsylvania of another massive scandal. What prompted you to want to delve into what was an obviously fraught story. Im sure you were warned off it. Yes. I mean, look, the Catholic Church was the most powerful institution in new england at the time. But when i arrived there was a case that was under way. A priest that had been accused of abusing as many as 80 kids. The lawyer for the plaintiff said that the cardinal himself was aware of this abuse and continually reassigned this particular priest. The church said at the time that these were baseless charge and irresponsible. And at the end of the column that was written by a boston globe columnist the kday befor i started work said the truth may not be known because the internal documents of the church are under court seal. So on my first day of work at the first meeting after everybody talked about what they were working on, i asked what we were doing to follow up on this particular case. And i said couldnt we get at the truth. One side was saying one thing and the other side was saying Something Else. And then somebody said, well, you know, the documents are under seal. I said i did know that because i had just read that in the column, but had we considered the possibility of going to court to try to unseal those documents . And that ended up launching this investigation that certainly took us to january of 2002 when we published our first story, but then we published many hundreds of stories after that. A thorough investigation. It wasnt just a matter of how much abuse was taking place by the priests who abused but the coverup and the systemic problems. Its a Global Crisis for the church now that started a movement. Thats the power of journalism. Coming up next i think these guys set up a situation where there were certain institutions that could question power as a way to check power. And i think theres an organized effort to undermine those instituti institutions. Ombine the right t. And something amazing happens. Thats our inspiration for fancy feast medleys. Wild salmon primavera. Tastes amazing. Also in pate. Fancy feast medleys. 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And the assumption that all of them made was that if people had the facts, if they had the truth that they could make good reason or rationale judgments about how to govern themselves, does it bother you guys that there is a hammering away, a chipping away, of faith in the news media as a deliverer of fact, as a deliverer of truth . It does bother me, and i think it bothers pretty much everybody in the profession. Its very difficult to have a democracy without agreement on underlying facts. We can disagree about how to solve our problems. We can disagree about the analysis of the situation. But there are underlying facts and i think now theres a questioning as to whether the press should be an independent arbiter of the facts and thats a dangerous situation. Its not just a matter of somebodys personal opinion. Its not a matter of who has the biggest megaphone. There are actual facts in this world and there are truths in this world. But there is an organized strategy by the president and his supporters to question that and the term alternative facts has now come into the popular lexicon. What does that mean . I think its part of an organized effort to undermine the institutions that have a role in not only trying to understand the facts but also in questioning power. I think thats not just true of the press. I think its true of the fbi. I think its true of the justice department. I think these guys set up a situation where there were certain institutions that could question power as a way to check power, and i think theres an organized effort to undermine those institutions. The press itself is an institution that has enormous power and there was great deal of discussion with these men about that. Benjamin franklin, he got a seat because he was in his 80s at the time. He was a supporter of the idea of freedom of the press, but he had concerns about it. About unlimited, unchecked power. One of the concerns he had was who would exercise that power. He said any man who can procure pen, ink and paper with the press and a huge pair of blacking balls may commissionate himself. Were in an area that anyone with a phone can become a journalist. Is it a positive thing that we have this infinite number of news sources . Were going back to the time of the founders when people were pamphleteres. We see that in a digital age now. Anybody can start up whatever they want. I think the public has a greater challenge in front of it which is to decide who is trustworthy and who is not and who is doing real reporting and who is not doing real reporting and our institutions maintain our independence. I would say overall its a positive thing. As painful as it is, overall i would still argue that having more voices, having more people have access not only to reading news, just as somebody who grew up in a place that only had access to one or two newspapers in new orleans, the fact that same kid can now read the guardian and read from different stripes and make up his own mind, i got to think that thats better as difficult as it is. Does the pace of journalism today and this kind of i instantaneous factor, does it make it harder to ensure that youre not rushing into print or online with stories that arent fully reported . Yes. Its infinitely more difficult these days. News can happen at any moment. If the president decides to tweet at 10 30 at night or 5 30 in the morning, we need to react to that to some degree. Other things can happen as well. The public, look, is demanding that the public is saying they want news instantly. Theyre Walking Around with mobile phones. Were providing alerts. The pressure on us to get things right is far greater than it was before because theres less time in which to verify things. But we still have that obligation for our news organizations to verify the information that were disseminating and we will not sacrifice that. George mason from virginia who was a descenter said the freedom of the press is one of the greatest bull works of liberty and can never be restrained but by but there is another way and that to discredit the press. It putsz greater pressure on us, i would say, to get right. And maybe im too much of an optimist. But i think in the end the evidence is the fact that both of our audiences are growing. People understand the press is a powerful role in society and that role will out last whoever tries to thwart us, because it always has. You pointed to the fact that after watergate, confidence was 72 in 1976. But it got me thinking. What if there was cable television, fox news . Social media and president nixon had all the things President Trump has and other politicians do today. There was also a congress that was active and conducting its own investigation and partisans willing to stand up to the president. Befear press credibility rose to those high levels t wasnt so high because the press was under attack by Richard Nixon and his entire administration and he was describe thing water gate investigation as a partisan effort by his enemies to bring down his presidency and argued the entire time there was no truth to the allegations. We need to look over the long run. We need make sure our reporting, even if its under attack in the short run needs to be validated in the long run. Youre fiercely competitive, completely different in personality and yet you seem to be good friends. We are. Why . Now im gonna tell my momma that im a traveller im gonna follow the sun now im gonna tell my momma that im a traveller transitions™ light under control™ no, what . . I just switched to geico and got more. More . Got a company i can trust. Thats a heck of a lot more. Over 75 years of great savings and service. You cant argue with more. Why would ya . Geico. Expect great savings and a whole lot more. thomas nice choices you see, now verizon lets you mix and match your family unlimited plans like you mix and match your flavors. So you get what you want, without paying for things you dont. Number 6. I know. Where do i put it . In my belly. vo one family. Different unlimited plans. Starting at 40 per line on the network you deserve. Im a small business, but i have. Big dreams. And big plans. So how do i make the efforts of 8 employees. Feel like 50 . How can i share new plans virtually . How can i download an efile . Virtual tours . Zipfile . Really big files . In seconds, not minutes. Just like that. Like everything. The answer is simple. Ill do what ive always done. Dream more, dream faster, and above all. Now, ill dream gig. Now more businesses, in more places, can afford to dream gig. Comcast, building americas largest gigspeed network. So let me ask you. You were at the l. A. Iftimes, t editor. You got fired because you refused to make cuts in the newsroom. You both had to make cuts. It does speak to the state of local journalism. Weve seen news organizations that were dominant in their communities. But the advertising base is gone. What is the meaning to the country . For all of the emphasis of Donald Trumps attacks on the press, the most impactful shift of journalism is the decline of local news. There are whole swaths of the country not covered. How to spend schools money. Jinorms things that nobodys covering and im not worried about the coverage of san francisco. Im worried whos going to cover newark, the east st. Louis. Im worried about whos going to cover the working class suburbs of chicago and new orleans where theres not going to be an economic reason to start news organizations and i dont know what the answer but i think we have to engage the question pretty forcefully right now. You have the benefit of an owner who is the wealthiest man on the planet. First of all the own of amazon. What does that afford you that dean doesnt have . We have to be able to operate independently. So when he achoired us years ago, he did make initial investments but now were profitable and paying our way. So we had the opportunity to reinvest in our business and invest in innovation and expanded coverage and all of that. And hes brought is not only Financial Capital but independent capital. A very sophisticated understanding of consumer behavior. Your thrr editors americas most decorated newspapers. Youre completely different in personality yet you seem to be good friends. We are. We are. Why . Well, as you pointed out im not a natural movie star. So were quite different that way. We Work Together at the times. I like martys mind, his interest in art. I share his passion for journalism. I would sun ider marty on the short list of very close friends. Okay. But weve talked about truth. How much does it fry you when you have to include in a story as first reported in the New York Times or as first reported in the Washington Post . Look, nobody likes to get beat. It does fry us. But the reporters are highly competitive. And i think thats the way it ought to be. And we encourage that competition. But we also share something and i think especially these days people feel that in our profession. And we need be supportive of each other. Imagine if you will, just for a second if only one American News organization was writing the tough stories about this administration and was constantly under attack, imagine what that would be like. It matters that were competing against each other. Enemies unite. We need a tshirt. Appreciate it. For more go to Apple Podcast and subscribe. This is cnn breaking news. Youre live in the cnn news room. Thank you for being with us. We begin this hour with breaking news. A Top White House lawyer now said to be a centrsearch witnes. White House Counsel don mcgan has been cooperating for the last nine months. Sitting down voluntarily for no less than 30 hours on at least three separate occasions. President trump insists he let him do it. Tweeting this, i