Colorado, victims, who thinks tonight, eyewitnesses tell me what they saw when they started. I talk a gun advocate who says there should have been more guns in that mall. And the mother of the aurora, colorado, victims, who thinks the opposite. And talks about guns, north Koreas Nuclear threat. And the man at both sides of the gun debate, mark kelly. President obama hasnt really addressed the gun issue at all. This is piers morgan tonight. Good evening. Our big story tonight, america armed. A day after another gun outrage, a young 22yearold shoots up a mall of christmas shoppers in oregon. Heres the statistics. Theres more than 129,000 federally licensed firearms dealers in this country. Thats according to the bureau of alcohol and tobacco. Theres 16,000 Grocery Stores and 14,000 mcdonalds restaurants. Far more places to buy guns in america than groceries or burgers. 47,856 people murdered by firearms between 2006 and 2010. Two more murdered in clackamas center. And it could have been worse. Thousands ran for safety. Joining me now, two survivors of the shooting. Joslyn lay and allan fonseca. You go to the mall. And somebody walks in with an assault weapon and someone walks in indiscriminately shooting. What was the first you discovered this was going on. Where were you and what did you hear . I was inside macys at the lancome counter, which is close to the entrance of the mall area, where the shooter was. And i was being helped by allan. And he was almost done with my transaction, when this loud boom happened. And i first thought that, you know, something had broken. But then, immediately, there was a second gunshot. And repeated ones. And i knew right away, this was gunfire. And we had a terrible situation. And so, allan and i looked at each other. Its like we understood that we had to do something. And we crouched down by the lancome counter. Allan, theres been a number of gun outrages in recent months. Was this your worst fear coming true . And what went through your mind when you realized this was happening . What was going through my mind, and i dont have an explanation for. The only thing that was running through my mind was i had to do my best possible to get as many people out of the building as i could because i knew a lot of people didnt have access to where the exits were. A lot of them are Holiday Shoppers they dont know where some of the exits were in the mall. Pure instinct, i did what i thought was right. Allan, do you have training as a macys employee . Do most people who work in Shopping Malls now in america, have some kind of training for this kind of thing . No. They dont have training for shootings. All we know is that, if theres a fire alarm or something goes off, that we just need to exit out of the building. But there was no precise training for a gunshot. Just that we know the shooter took his own life in the end. We know that his rifle jammed. Was an assault rifle. He had several magazines, capable of firing multiple, multiple bullets. It could have been worse. Appear that the pure intention was for killing innocent people. What is your view about that ongoing debate in america, which im vociferous about. And many people dont want to have it at all. About gun control. And the ability of people like this shooter, to get their hands on a weapon of this power and magnitude. Well, i feel like that, you know, theres not enough consequences in the United States. You know, unfortunately, it starts from the home. And the home is destructing. You know, we dont have, you know, proper authority, with a husband and wife. You know, just different situations like that that gunmen are able to be able you know, we just had an incident here in portland, where an 11yearold and a 7yearold were having firearms. Its an unfortunate situation. And something has to change. The whole gun thing, its dangerous. A lot of people are allowed to have guns. But i think theres a more deeprooted thing that needs to be pointed out. And what would cause a young man, like the one that did the shooting, to do what he did . Because he was just a regular person, you know . People saw him as a kind person. And just out of nowhere, he just goes and does this. So, i dont think its so much just the guns. But what is really going on in our society . Thats causing young men to do this. I think it is a combination of things. I want to thank you both. Joslyn and allan. Were going to go to someone now. Jacob was a good guy. They were stunned to learn he was the gunman behind the shooting rampage. Joining me now is faye. A difficult time for family, for friends. Anyone who knew him. By all accounts, he seemed a normal character. And this seems completely out of character. What is your view . Well, it is a shock. My fiance woke me up this morning and let me know what happened. And it felt like i was being lied to. I didnt believe that jake was capable of such a thing. We all knew him as a kind person. He was generous. He was a guy that if you were having a bad day, he could make you laugh, no matter what. There is a report, a suggestion, not confirmed yet, that he had sold all his possessions and was planning to move, perhaps, to hawaii. Nobody who knew him well quite understood why. Friends who was with him recently, said he was acting in a curious way, somewhat detached. I saw the post he was moving to hawaii. I didnt hear about him selling his belongings or anything. I cant shed too much light on that. But i did see he was planning to go to hawaii. Police are saying he stole the gun from a friend. Have you any idea where he may have stolen the gun . That, i am not aware of any of that. Obviously, you seem very shocked by whats happened here. It does seem very out of character. Were there any signs at all, in all the time you knew him, that he was suffering any kind of Mental Illness . That he wasnt balanced . Did he have flareups, behavior issues at all, that suggested to you he was capable of all this . Absolutely not. Jake was the last person on my mind that i thought would do Something Like this. Did he have family issues that youre aware of . Not that im aware of. Completely baffling to you . Absolutely is. You seem very upset. Its hardly surprising. Is the whole community, just in deep shock about this . Yeah. You know, all of our friends just are trying to comprehend what he may have gone through or what could have happened that led him to do such a drastic thing. On his facebook page, there are pictures of him shooting. Were looking at one of them now. He admits to liking shooting. Were you aware of his love of shooting . Of his affiliation to guns at all . I mean, ive seen it on his facebook. But i mean, theres a lot thats out there that likes shooting. I dont think thats the cause of why he did what he did. Well, faye, thank you for joining me. I can tell youre shocked and upset by this. Its understandable. I appreciate you joining the show tonight. Absolutely. One of the worst mass shoots of this countrys history happened in aurora, colorado, this summer. 12 people killed. Previously escaped a mall shooting in toronto, jessicas mother, sandy phillips, joins me with her husband, lonnie phillips. Thank you for joining me. Thank you for having us. You tweeted me on the night i interviewed bob costas on monday, about gun control. He is the center of a controversy in his gun comments. He was articulate why this country needs more gun control. When you heard about this latest shooting, as you must do with all shootings that make the headlines, you heart must sink and it must take you back to the nightmare you went through. Yes. Absolutely. Not only myself, but my husband and the other 11 families that lost a loved one in aurora. We were all, you know, texting back and forth last night. All of us were shaking. And some of us were crying. And we understand the pain that those families are going through that lost loved ones. And those that were traumatized by the event. Its a horrible state of affairs that were in in america right now. And it really needs to be addressed. When we have leaders like Lindsey Graham that was on your show the other night, that said were not going to do anything about it because we believe in the Second Amendment, it makes you even more curious as to where this country is heading because i, too, believe in the Second Amendment. I, too, am a gun owner. So is my husband. And to not address these issues is ludicrous. Lonnie, the argument, i keep being thrown back in my face when i raise this, after all these outrages is, if everybody at aurora in that Movie Theater had been armed, they could have all shot the shooter. Im sure that the gun lobby will argue the same thing again about what happened in the mall. If the christmas shoppers had been armed, they could have shot him and so on. Whats your response to that particular argument . My response to that would be that would not be a good idea. To have everyone in that theater, or even a few people in that theater with a gun. Im a gun owner. Grant lowak, who was with my daughter when she was killed went to a gun show this weekend. I could have walked out of there without signing anything. Theyre really available. Having a gun in a theater and a crowded any kind of crowded environment, brent is a good shot. He may have gotten a chance to shoot. But i think his best course of action was to do what he did. He tried to protect my daughter. He was wounded in the process. He has a license to carry. And im going to get a license to carry because i want to protect my home. I have a shotgun. My wife used to be a member of the National Rifle association. So, we are gun owners. And we believe in the Second Amendment. But we believe there needs to be a dialogue. Our country needs to talk about some type of gun control. I believe that having our Citizens Armed and a license to carry. I would carry a gun in my car. I would not carry one on my person. I dont think i would want to try to shoot somebody. And i would not want to face the fact that i missed him and hit somebody, an innocent victim. We just had that shooting at the empire state victim, where nine people were injured by officers who were welltrained in arms. So, it can happen at anytime, anywhere. But more guns is not necessarily the answer. I think stricter controls. When 40 of the guns that are bought and sold in america are bought and sold without any background checks, weve got a problem. Well, youve raised some fascinating issues there. And i think ever more powerful coming from the position youve come from lost somebody that you loved to an atrocity like this. Im grateful for you coming on and talking to me tonight. Thank you very much. Thank you for having us. Coming up next, are more guns the answer or less . Well get into that after the break. Sfx sounds of african drum and flute look whos back. Again . Its embarrassing its embarrassing we can see you carl. We can totally see you. Come on youre better than this. All that prowling around. Yeah, youre the king of the jungle. Have you thought about going vegan carl . Hahaha you know folks who save hundreds of dollars by switching to geico sure are happy. How happy are they jimmy . Happier than antelope with nightvision goggles. Nice get happy. Get geico. Fifteen minutes could save you fifteen percent or more. During this attack, he was armed with an ar15 semiautomatic rifle. The rifle was stolen from a person known to the suspect. The sheriff talking about the shooter and how he got his weapon. Now, the constitutional right to bear arms. Joining me is alan gotlieb. And dan gross. Welcome to you both. We had a moving interview there with the parents of a young woman who lost her life in aurora. The connection to what happened there and what happened in colorado, is both used a semiautomatic weapon. My question to you is this. Why would anybody in america, who is not in the military or the police force, need to ever have one of these weapons . First of all, piers, these arent fully automatic weapons that you get in the military. The semiautomatic, they pull one bullet and pull the trigger, as well as any other rifle that may not look like a militarystyle rifle. Before you demonize a gun, you need to look at how it functions. Some of the ar15s fire. 22 caliber bullets. Thats a smaller what a hunting rifle would fire. Thats not the case in either the incident in oregon or aurora, as you well know. And i come back again. You can look at it one way. Im baffled as to what anybody would need a weapon of this sophistication for, if the purpose is simply to defend yourself. Explain to me. Well, the weapon isnt that sophisticated. To be honest about it, your network, on cnn, i remember watching during the l. A. Riots, korean merchants on top of the rooftops of their buildings making sure they werent burnt down or robbed around them. In the area of los angeles, the only businesses that survived were they had these weapons on their rooftops. And the looters, the rioters, the arsonists, went elsewhere. Theres a good reason. I watched it on your network. You may have seen on my network, the coverage of the aurora shooting. James holmes, the killer there, had four weapons. He also bought 6,000 rounds of ammunition on the internet. He was armed to the teeth. And he had protective gear on him, which is also what happened with Jacob Roberts in oregon. They planned this meticulously. And they went in with these rifles. And had the weapon not jammed in the mall yesterday, we could be looking at a death toll higher than what happened in aurora. I say to you, why do people in america, outside of the military and the police, need to have the ability to have an ar15 . I dont understand. Well, i just gave you one example in the l. A. Riots. Youre saying, if theres a riot a riot 20 years ago. Youre talking about a riot 20 years ago, as being the only reason the only reason why hurricane andrew unstable young people in america are able to walk in and buy ar15 semiautomatic rifles and go into Shopping Malls and to Movie Theaters and blow away as Many Americans as they can, with these magazines that can carry up to 100 rounds a minute in the case of james holmes. We dont know yet about oregon. They dont do 100 rounds a minute. Well, james holmes shot 70 people. James holmes shot 70 people. To be factual correct. Let me give you some facts. Let me give you a fact wait a minute. Wait a minute, sir. Wait a minute. You want to talk facts. Let me give you a fact. You want to get are you still talking . A good solution. You have to look at both side will you stop talking . To debate let me speak. My show. Heres a fact for you. James holmes in aurora, shot 70 people. He killed 12. I spoke to the parents of one of the people he killed just now. This debate is not about the right to defend yourself in a home. Its about why america continues to allow deranged, young people to buy these semiautomatic ar15s. I dont get it. You explain to me why, other than riots of 20 years ago, they should continue to easily purchase or steal these weapons . To be able to have a gun. Piers, deranged people shouldnt be able to have a gun. If we talk about that, thats one thing. But your position basically is nobody should have a gun. You think the Second Amendment defends muskets as you tweeted. Thats not my position at all. You tweeted that. I was talking about the way i have a copy of the tweet right here. I know what i tweeted. I tweeted it. It was my tweet. Heres what i said. I said when the founders its not funny. Why are you laughing . Because youre not telling the truth. Stop laughing. It looks creepy. All right . Let me turn to you, dan gross. Piers. Whatever. I dont find any of this remotely funny. Let me turn to you, dan gross. The reference i made in my tweet what happened before, i dont believe when the Founding Fathers constructed the Second Amendment they ever imagined that young people in america would be able to buy ar15s, semiautomatic weapons and go into Movie Theaters and to Shopping Malls and kill as many innocent americans as they could get their hands on with the very highpowered weapons, capable of firing off multiple bullets at a very high speed. What do we do about this . We already heard these parents. Very movingly, both of them own guns. One is a former member of the nra. I dont have issue with an americans right to defend themselves in their home. I have a massive issue with the ease that people who are clearly unstable can just get their hands on ar15s and commit these atrocities. You know, listen. At the end of the day, it doesnt matter what i think. And it really, with all due respect, doesnt matter what you think. It matters what the vision is of the American Public. You know, we all, as a nation, we know we are better than this. Thats why we started this website and this petition, wearebetterthanthis. Org. We have shootings in malls and Movie Theaters and places of worship. We need to have an open, honest conversation of what we can do to solve the problem. The American Public, you know, do they think that the answer to violence is more violence . That the answer to guns is more guns . You know, i would love to open that up in the Public Discourse and have the American Public decide because i think what we would find is this issue isnt nearly as polarizing as the reaction of mr. Gottlieb would imply. The overwhelming majority of americans know better than this. And they support solutions that can prevent tragedies like what happened to your last guests and what happened in portland, in oregon, last night. You know, another solution i would put out there is background checks. Mr. Gottlieb said, lets talk about keeping guns out excuse me, sir. And mr. Gottlieb said lets keep guns out of the hands of mentally deranged people. You know, 40 as those guests very welleducated guests said, in your last segment, 40 of all gun sales are not subject to background checks in our country. So, you at the top of the show, piers, talked about how many federally licensed firearm dealers there are. That only represents 60 of gun sales where theres background checks. So, 40 . Keeping a gun out of the hand of a convicted felon, out of a convicted domestic abuser, out of somebody thats dangerous, mentally ill, has nothing to do with the Second Amendment. I would hope that mr. Gottlieb would agree. My hope is that we can find a middle ground together. We can come to sensible solutions, like background checks. And maybe have the civil discourse thats going to be necessary to solve this problem. That the overwhelming majority of americans want to have. Mr. Gottlieb, let me ask you this. Would you genuinely believe that if everybody had been armed in the Shopping Mall, this would have prevented the shooter from killing anybody . And would you encourage people to go to Shopping Malls in america tomorrow, to go armed . Piers, firstly, you start out with the statement. Would i encourage everybody to be armed. I never encourage everybody to be armed. Who do you encourage to be armed . You should have the right to be armed. The Shopping Mall had a sign on every door going into it, no firearms allowed. The theater in aurora, had a sign, no firearms allowed. These can be killing zones for criminals. Thats not a way to do it. You look at the mass shootings, where do they happen. In gunfree school zones. College campuses, where you cant have a gun. Mall wheres you cant have a gun. Doesnt that ring an alarm bell . What rings alarm bells to me, until 2004, following the ban on assault weapons, there was a ban on these ar15s. And now, there isnt. Why did you go backwards . Why do you feel comfortable . If thats what you do, mr. Gottlieb, why do you feel comfortable in allowing young people, who may or may not be deranged, to have access to these type of assault weapons . I dont get it. There wasnt a ban. There was a ban on new production of them. Anybody who had one was grandfathered in. And the year they discussed banning them, there was a tenyear supply sold in one year, for people that wanted them, before they were banned. And the ban disappeared at sunset ten years later. It put the guns on the street ten years earlier. What was the affect . No increase in crimes in those firearms. Unlike britain and the u. K. , where firearms are banned. This past year, 35 increase in gun crime. Gun crime has gone up every year for the last four years. Do me a favor. Do you know how many people got murdered in britain . On average . The last three or four years . Less. Lower the population of the United States. How many . You made the statement. Let me give you youre keen on facts. Mr. Gottlieb again, can you stop talking . Let me just interrupt. Why dont you look at both sides . Im going to give you both sides. You said theres a massive surge of gun crime in britain. Let me tell you the reality. In america, in the last three of four years, you average 11,000 to 12,000 murders from ghuns a population of what . 330 million. In britain, we have 60 million people. We have 35 to 40 maximum murders from guns a year. You do the same math that im doing . Yeah, okay. Explain to me why its double in britain than it was before the ban. And why its up 35 this year if you have a ban . Gun control doesnt work. Criminals dont obey laws. Thats why their criminals. Its claptrap to argue it. Its total claptrap. Let me leave you one last question, which you havent answered. Do you feel comfortable, given what happened in aurora, and now in oregon, do you feel comfortable that tomorrow, another unstable 21yearold, 22yearold kid, who may have seen these stories in the papers, maybe watching this very show and maybe inspired to go out and do exactly the same thing, can easily go and purchase, in many states in america, an ar15 semiautomatic rifle and magazines on the internet that can explode hundreds of bullets in rapidfire type. Do you feel comfortable that that is easy to do in your country, mr. Gottlieb . It should be easy to lawabiding people. For people who are mentally deranged or people who commit violent crimes, it shouldnt be. Thats 1 of the population. Thats where the efforts should go. Not attacking the rights of the other 99 of the population. Mr. Gottlieb, mr. Gross, thank you for joining me. Coming up, my allstar panel on the story the countrys talking about tonight. We talk about guns, obviously. And the dysfunction in washington over the fiscal cliff. And the very Serious Nuclear threat from north korea. Hear me . Two, three. Just hold the bag. We need a portable xray, please [ nurse ] im a nurse. I believe in the power of science and medicine. But im also human. And i believe in stacking the deck. [ female announcer ] to nurses everywhere, thank you, from johnson johnson. Progresso. In what world do potatoes, bacon and cheese add up to 100 calories . Your world. [ whispers ] real bacon. Creamy cheese. 100 calories. [ chef ] maam [ male announcer ] progresso. You gotta taste this soup. Now, to my allstar battleground america panel. The stories this country is talking about and arguing. Carol roth, abby huntsman, and charles blow, columnist of the new york times. Lets get to guns. Another day, another atrocity. Charles, whats going to happen here, if anything . I thought the most moving thing tonight was the interview of the two parents of the young woman who lost her life in aurora. They were gun owners. Theyre not antigun. Thats how you have to frame this debate. America is a country with a Second Amendment. You have to respect the right of people to defend their families if they want it. What do we do about the proliferation of these things . These assault rifles . I dont know why anybody in America Needs one of these if theyre not in the military or the police. I think thats the problem or the challenge. We have to change our relationship to guns. That its not about banning peoples access to guns. Im from a small town in louisiana. A farming community. People hunt. You have to keep the snakes out of the grass, the vermin out of the garden. People use that. Theres probably more humane ways of doing it. And a lot of people use guns for that purpose. Also, because its rural. You know, you cant just pick up the phone and call 911 and expect somebody to be there in five minutes. Its going to take an hour. If you have to protect your home, a lot of people have handguns for that sort of thing. Its not about saying you cannot own a gun for your protection or for sport or for whatever. However, there are guns that were specifically designed for military use, including ar15s. And only in the 60s did they begin to be sold to the public. I think we do have to reexamine our relationship to militarystyle guns, being in the civilian population. And i think that what is happening, i think the most dangerous part, is we are getting to sort of a Critical Mass because theres so many being sold. If you were to stop now, and theres so many out there, you now have a real problem because thats a big problem. Abby, you tweeted today, nobody needs an assault weapon. And whats it going to take to enforce background checks . I think the Founding Fathers would be shocked if they were witnessing whats going on in our country right now. This comes back to, as weve all been saying, protecting the Second Amendment. If that means banning assault weapons, if that means providing background checks, i think the American People are common sense enough to realize thats exactly what we need to do. Your interview just a few moments with jessicas mom, shes like so Many Americans who say, i own a gun. Im all about thats why i found it powerful. Its not about banning all guns. But carol defend to me this, carol. Its not about the gun. Its about the people explain to me why anyone in america should have one of these. Its not about this or a bomb or any weapon. Its about the people. Thats the crux of the issue. Were talking about the legislation, if we want to have a productive dialogue, lets talk about whats going on in our culture that would cause people to take any weapon. Three children carol, three children under 10 in america in the last week, got hold of firearms from their family homes and either killed or critically injured siblings. I know its tragic. You said, its not about the guns. Its about the people. Are they evil children . People choke on hot dogs. People fall into pools and drown. Youre equating choking on a hot dog . Accidents happen. If we want to have a productive dialogue. This is an emotional talk show. These are not accidents. Theres not you have to separate. It is about the brutal efficiency of highpowered semiautomatic and or automatic weapons. Assault weapons. And in that case, it is about the gun. Several loaded magazines, and an ar15. He may as well been a commando in afghanistan. The only thing we disagree on is the assault weapons part. Thats why the question is why should anyone have an assault weapon . They exist. And let me ask you this. Is that the justification . If you ban them, do you think that it keeps it out of the hands of criminals . Has that worked for drugs . Has it worked for prostitution . Does it work for anything we ban . Does it keep it out of the hands of the people thats irresponsible . Or does it create an imbalance of power . Do you agree that the Second Amendment allow you to have a tank . I think it does. Theres people with a class 3 license that can have a tank. Are you comfortable with everybody having a tank . Thats not the debate. And youre trying to sensationalize it. Im not. Im talking about the interpretation of the Second Amendment. The right to bear arms has to have limitation. And it should involve limiting these. No. Limiting the people. I believe lets legislate the people. Im all for who should not have these . Theres people with violent backgrounds, thats fine. That is the problem, though. This is not gun smoke. This is not gunsmoke. Were not going to walk around with a gun strapped to our waist. I believe you have the right to not bear arms and feel safe in this society. When you get to the point where you no longer can feel safe in a society by choosing not to bear arms, that becomes a problem. I think that the power of the people im saying, right now, we dont even have a conversation because the moment that someone brings up the idea of getting rid of one second. Getting rid of assault weapons, like both romney and president obama discussed in one of their debates, the nra jumps in, spends millions of dollars like all weapons. It is about assault weapons. No, it didnt. James holmes in aurora and this shooter in oregon, both used this weapon. It is about these. They were banned. Theyre not banned anymore. And the way to deal with criminals of these is not to arm everybody on the streets with the same weapon. If you think that that had been illegal, do you think that would have stopped them from killing people, piers . I think you have to try, havent you . In a country with 11,000 to 12,000 gun murders a year. I think the argument that we need assault weapons to protect ourselves from those who have assault weapons, i dont think thats a good enough argument. People are responsible enough not to respond with an assault weapon. You asked what do we do . And its not being talked about by our political leaders. Its not being talked about because its politically sensitive. I think its one of the most shameful things. Mark kelly at the end of the show tonight, he says exactly that point. Were going to take a break. And come back and discuss this along with other big issues. Where they almost never fight about money. [ dog barks ] because right after they get married, theyll find some retirement people who are paid on salary, not commission. Theyll get straightforward guidance and be able to focus on other things, like each other, which isnt rocket science. Its just common sense. From td ameritrade. Back, now, my allstar panel. Carol roth, abby huntsman, and charles blow. Until they grow up in congress and washington, im not interested. Just sort yourselves out. And well come back to you when youve done a deal before christmas, so we can enjoy ourselves. Lets turn to north korea. That is quite worrying and quite serious. Quickly, charles, is it posturing by north koreas rulers towards its people, to show a bit of power, flex a bit of muscle. Is it something genuinely to be worried about . I think its always something to be worried about. Maybe, the leader, little kim, they call him. That we would turn a corner and he would be less aggressive. But the last round, was chinas response. They have been tougher. Thats crucial. And its still to be seen if they will move to add sanctions or tighten sanctions or whatever. But i think moving them into the crowd of the rest of the world view about where the Nuclear Proliferation and its important. Abby, you lived in china. China is pivotal, there in syria, with iran. Everybody is looking to china for leadership. And lets be clear. North korea, all they really have is military power. And what keeps them afloat . China. Were talking about our relationship with china. And its such an important one. This signifies the magnitude of importance here. China is a tough relationship. It reminds me of a game of chess. Its not a game of checkers. You have to think ten steps ahead when dealing with china. If you want to talk about human rights, youre going to have to take Something Else off the table. So, you have to move forward in a way that we can work with china. Its a challenge. But its also potentially an opportunity. Its crucial. Carol, china is pivotal economically, increasingly militarily, politically, certainly. It is the place that everyone has to look to for guidance and leadership on all these issues. Right. And i think the big question here is, can we believe that china really is all up in arms, please excuse the pun, over the situation . Or are they secretly behind the scenes . If they are, were in big trouble. If we have to go into some sort of war over there, were not going to be able to finance it because we get our money, right now, from china. We cant get it from japan. We cant get it from europe. We have 16 trillion in debt. Back to the fiscal cliff, we went by. Thats out of the way. You jumped the shark. You mentioned the dreaded cliff word. Im cutting you all off. Carol, abby, charles, thank you. Youve been one of the most lively panels and the most aesthetically pleasing since yesterday. When it comes to guns, my next guest knows it alltoo well. Gabby giffords husband, astronaut mark kelly. Coming up next. R future. Since Ameriprise Financial was founded back in 1894, theyve been committed to putting clients first. Helping generations through tough times. Good times. Never taking a bailout. There when you need them. Helping millions of americans over the centuries. The strength of a Global Financial leader. 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Plus get this document shredder free but only if you act right now. Call the number on your screen now as weve seen here tonight with the debate on guns, theyre a divisive issue in this country. And the man who can see both sides of it, better than most, is mark kelly. Hes Gabby Giffords husband. And an astronaut. And he talked to me earlier. Welcome back to you, mark. Good evening, piers. Its great to be here. I saw a story in the last few days. It said that smith wesson had increased gun sales by 44 since barack obama was reelected. They never had numbers higher of people applying for clearance and licenses. I saw that terrifying. What is your reaction to the extraordinary proliferation in gun sales . Its surprising. President obama hasnt really addressed the gun issue at all he was elected the first time. You know, during his first four years in office. While the issue has come up, there hasnt been much done to address the problem. Although, walmart also saw record sales in ammunition, following his first inauguration. Im quite surprised by that. I didnt hear that statistic from smith wesson. But its interesting to see. When i have this debate, a lot of americans say, listen. Its the Second Amendment. Its our constitution. We have a right to bear arms. And primarily, we want to have guns to protect ourselves and our family. And you would have heard the argument many times. Clearly, guns did not protect your family. What is your answer to that . I mean, do you understand it . Do you empathize with it . What is the answer . Well, i personally believe that people have a right to protect themselves in their home. That they should be allowed to have a gun to protect them and their family. But i also think that we have an issue with the access that people have to guns. That its so easy to buy a gun. Especially in certain states. In certain circumstances, people that are mentally ill can acquire a gun or even in some cases, a former felon can. So, these are problems that i think need to be addressed. You know, we elect some smart people that should be able to work out these issues. Theyve just theyve just neglected to do it on, you know, in this particular case. And you know, theres asons that politicians tend to ignore this issue. Lets turn to things up in space. 40 years ago, apollo 17 lifted into the night and sent the last humans to the moon. Do you think well ever see human beings on the moon again in your lifetime . In my lifetime . Well, you initially said ever. And evers a long time. But in our lifetimes . I think theres a good probability we will get somebody back on the moon. Maybe its not the United States of america. Maybe it will be a chinese astronaut on the surface of the moon next. I hope thats not the case. I mean, i think we have strong reasons for going there. Mars, on the other hand, is a much bigger problem. To send somebody to mars and safely get them back to earth, is would be one of the greatest challenges weve ever taken on as a species. Would you like to do that . Well, i would. Its a long trip. If youre going to stay there for more than two weeks, youre going to stay there for 500 days. And 500 days is a long time. My brother is getting ready to go into space. Its a couple years from now. But hes going to go into space for a year. A year is long time. But imagine doing a 500day trip. That brings us back to when ships left europe and didnt plan to come back for years. Were looking at that kind of mission. Im trying to imagine the scene where you tell gabby, im off to mars for 500 days. I dont think shell be digging that. Tell me about your book. Its beautifully designed and illustrated. A lot of fun. A nice childrens book. Why did you decide to do this . On my first space flight, we carried 18 mice onboard for an experiment. And 17 of them were not having a good time. They were terrified. Stuck to the inside of the cage. But one of them, and this is the true part of the story, really seemed to enjoy the experience. Its a lot of fun. And im going to show it to my little daughter. Its great to talk to you again. Good luck with all that you do. Send my best to gabby. How is she doing . Shes doing well, piers. You know, shes got a great attitude about her recovery. About where shes going. You know, shes getting involved in not exactly back to work. But weve been involved in a new Organization Called the National Institute for civil discourse. Thats great. Nice to talk to you. Thanks for having me on, piers. Appreciate it. Thats all for us tonight. Ac 360 starts in a few moments. nc rno