Transcripts For CNNW Mike 20240705

Children, and as an american, am tired of the fighting. What specific steps would you take as president to bring all parties to the table and bring americans together to end the divisiveness in this great country . Well, thanks for the question. Its something thats very meaningful. I share your aspiration for our country. Look, i said before, i think democracy depends on heavy doses of civility. And over the last 20 years of my career, weve always tried to aspire to that ideal. My faith requires me to treat others the way i want to be treated, and while earlier in my career, the first time i ran for office, i didnt live up to that. Ten years later, when the opportunity came around, we sought to do just that. And quite frankly, over the course of my years in congress and as governor and as Vice President , ive always ive always tried to reflect that. You know, i think our politics are more divided than ever been, in my lifetime. But im not convinced the American People are as divided as our politics. You know, karen and i moved home to indiana, we bought five acres and a pond after we left the white house. And i have to tell you, you know, one of the things ive learned, you get 15 miles out of washington, d. C. , the people of this country actually get along pretty well. Right . I mean, the American People show respect to one another, people here in iowa, people in indiana. People with whom we differ. We show civility and respect most days. I just think we need government as good as our people. And when i think of the challenges that are facing america today, a world that seems to be more dangerous every day, inflation, crisis at our border, crime in our major cities, what seems to be an assault on our values, failing schools in so many of our major cities and towns across the country, now more than ever, we need to create an environment in politics that allows us to talk to one another. You know, i wrote a book about my career, i reflected on this, and i will tell you, taking that approach in my career, i was able to forge relationships with people in congress that i agreed with on nothing. One of them was the late john lewis. An icon of the Civil Rights Movement and the righthand man of the reverend dr. Martin luther king jr. John and i differed on everything except that i knew he was a great man. And we recognized the importance of our Christian Faith to both of us. Ill never forget, when i was leading the House Republican conference, john lewis called my office and asked if karen and i would colead the Annual Civil Rights Pilgrimage to walk across the Edmund Pettus bridge, the very bridge where he had been beaten to within an inch of his life, and by his suffering and struggle, hed advanced a more Perfect Union in america. Its one of the great privileges of my life that karen and i and our three children walked across that bridge with john lewis. And im mourned his passing. Since of personal loss. When he left us. But john and i, again, never agreed on much. But we could always talk. And i think thats what we have to get back to, when you think about the challenges were facing in america. I just think weve got to get back to the kind of politics that reflects the decency and civility that the American People show each other every day. And i believe we will. And i hope to be part of it. [ applause ] former Vice President mike pence, thank you so much for being here this evening. And thank you to our audience, everybody here at grand View University and you at home, as well. Be sure to tune in on monday at 8 00 p. M. Eastern for our next cnn republican president ial town hall with former new jersey governor Chris Christie. Cnns coverage with Anderson Cooper and jake tapper is next. Tonights cnn town hall with former Vice President pence just wrapping up there in iowa. Good evening from new york. Not just a political event, but also a very eventful day for mike pences former boss. We learned that mr. Trump, who mike pence earlier today said never should be president again, has been informed by the Department Of Justice that he is a target in the documents probe. The classified documents probe, meaning he could be indicted. The former Vice President tonight dodging the question of whether he would support mr. Trump this time if trump wins the nomination. And jake, mike pence was asked about a possible indictment tonight, if he thought the former president should be indicted. Here is some of his answer. Let me say this, look, i i i dont know the facts of the president s case. I mean, i was very troubled last summer when, for the first time in history, there was a Search Warrant executed at the home of a former president of the United States. I mean, when i informed the Department Of Justice that we had classified materials potentially in our home, they were at the home, the fbi was on my front doorstep the next day. But we found out when joe biden apparently alerted the Department Of Justice, 80 days later, they showed up at his office. Thats not equal treatment. But the question is, allegation that investigation into obstruction, which you clearly did not do. If that is something that investigators see as possible, even enough potentially to indict the former president , do you think that that should go forward . Well, i would hope not. I really would, dana. I mean, theres several reasons for that. Number one, i think it would terribly divisive to the country. What youre saying is, if they believe he committed a crime, they should not go forward with an indictment . You just talked before about committing to the rule of law. Let me be clear that no ones above the law. Okay. But with regard to the unique circumstances here, look, i those classified i had no business having classified documents in my residence and i took full responsibility for it. President biden had no business having them in his residence from when he was Vice President , as well. And the same with former President Trump. But i would just hope that there would be a way for them to move forward without the dramatic and drastic and divisive step of indicting a former president of the United States. The former Vice President just minutes ago in des moines. With me here, kaitlan collins, Inside Politics host abby phillips, jamie gangal and cnn legal analyst kerry cordero. Its interesting, the line that the Vice President tried to walk when it comes to this news. No one is above the law, and yet, i hope they dont indict donald trump because that would be divisive. Yeah, i mean, i think that mike pence probably is going as far as he wants to go in terms of criticizing trump, when he has i think pretty forcefully today and the last couple of days really condemned trump, not just for his actions on january 6th, but also for what it says about his fidelity to the constitution, but thats about as far as hes willing to go, and thats probably his view of where the Republican Party is. He does not think that Republican Voters really care the merits of some of these cases, whether its the new york indictment over the hush money payments, or perhaps this document case, however, the devil will be in the details. I think he can say this now, because we do not know what the facts of the case are yet, but it will be interesting to see whether his tune changes if the facts of the case become more serious, and more detailed. Especially as it relates to National Security and those classified documents. Yeah, i think hes picking and choosing. Hes willing to criticize him on the big things, he sees are big things, january 6th and what not. He was very mrblunt about that today, but not so much on this. We do know that trumps attorneys have gotten a Target Letter from the Justice Department saying, your client is a target in this documents investigation. It seemed very clear thats where this was headed. But we dont know what this looks like if he does get indicted. Obviously, thats what could potentially follow a Target Letter. Well see if it does. Pence is being very careful there, but saying that youre committed to the rule of law, but then saying he shouldnt be charged or indicted with this, i mean, thats a clear those two dont compute, obviously, and he didnt answer about whether or not he would pardon trump when dana asked that question. Yeah, there is this inherent contradiction. We saw it when he said that donald trump should never be president again, because he put himself above the constitution, and he, mike pence, would never do such a thing, but then when asked if donald trump is the nominee, will he support him, he said yes, even though he had said donald trump put himself above the constitution. Again, an inherent contradiction. It appears that to get on the debate stage, people are going to have to pledge that they will support the nominee. Lets see if that holds. But as you were saying earlier today, theres sort of this fake pledge thing going on here and the way he gets around it, he says, i dont think hes going to be the nominee, but i think what we saw from former Vice President pence tonight was once again this balancing about that weve seen for a long time. Even though he was blunt about january 6th and the cons constitution, he knows that donald trump owns the base right now. He is by far the frontrunner. And some gop voters who are with trump see pence as a traitor, and gop voters who arent with trump arent very attracted to mike pence. They would rather look at someone else in the field. And just as a factual matter, the ones that think hes a Traitor Are Wrong correct. Hes not a tray toir. As a legal matter, how serious is the idea that donald trump and his attorneys, more specifically, got a Target Letter, saying that he is the target of a possible indictment, what does that mean for our viewers out there . Sure, so, if someone is a subject of an investigation, that means that they are involved in the investigation in some way, but it doesnt necessarily mean that their conduct is the subject of the actual potential criminal violations. The Target Letter is serious. The Target Letter means that this is an individual that the investigation is targeting, is directed at, him as an individual, not just the people around him, that his conduct is potentially the charged conduct. And i think it does correlate to the meeting that took place recently where his lawyers went in. Sometimes the Target Letter can come out before the lawyers go in and sort of make their last case in front of the Justice Department prosecutors, trying to dissuade them from even issuing the Target Letter, in this case, they had the meeting and then the Target Letter appears to be coming out after, but it does indicate that they are seriously considering charges. One note about that meeting, that was in the Justice Department on monday, trumps attorneys were there for, i think, almost two hours, jack smith, the special counsel, was in that meeting, but were told he didnt say a word. Essentially he walked in, said, basically, hello and goodbye, and thats all he said. Interesting. Anderson, a lot more to talk about in terms of the issues that were discussed beyond donald trump. Mike pence clearly casting himself as perhaps the most conservative major party im sorry, major candidate in the republican race, but im throwing back to you. Yeah, with me here in new york are cnn political commentators from across the spectrum. Alyssa, you know, to abbys point, went as far as hes willing to go on trump. He went farther today than he has in the past, when he announced, and tonight, but he wouldnt answer danas questions about a pardon, or a number of other things. Pence had some strong moments tonight. He had a line where he said that was a direct shot at trump, he said, i know the difference between a genius and a war criminal, taking him on for refusing to call putin a war criminal. He talked about meeting with Vladimir Putin, i was there when he did and directly confronting him about election interference, but the problem was trump loomed large over the entire night. It was hard to look at what a future looking mike pence presidency would look like, because it kept coming back to, rightly so, january 6th, pardoning the former president. This is what hes going to have to deal with on the Campaign Trail. Im not sure i have strong advice on how you avoid it, bau the two are so tied. And i think for voters, the key thing he needs to do is draw a clear line and stick to it. He is never going to win over the super maga base, so, he might as well appeal to the many of us that think that defending somebody who may soon be indicted, defending somebody who was behind january 6th, is an unacceptable position. David . No, i totally agree with this. I think the risk for candidates like meek ike pence is not taki any risks. This was kind of a carefully calibrated evening where he tried not to take risks has he ever . Obviously on january 6th he took a risk and fulfilled his duty, but has he taken risk politically in terms of breaking out of his persona . No, and as i said before the town hall, you know, he he has he spent most of those four years defending Donald Trumps behavior on a whole range of things, but tonight, i think we saw the limit of where hes willing to go, and i think we also saw, and scott referenced this earlier, his estimation of where the republican electorate is willing to go. He thinks that the republicans will rally around trump, theyll, as scott said earlier, theyll say biden is getting different treatment, which is absurd in many ways, but he did not want to wade in those waters, so, you can say no ones above the law, constitution and so on, but here comes a case in which hes going to have to take a stand and apparently hes not going to do that. I also think, as a democrat, first of all, man, hes boring. Its really hard to, like, stick with him. But as i was trying to listen to him when you say boring he talks real slow, its just hard to follow. But the other thing is that he wasnt just tying himself into a pretzel around trump, he could sell pretzels on the kind of conservatism hes putting forward. Its weird. He believes in parents rights, unless youre the parent of a transgender kid, in which case, the government should boss you around. Thats weird. He believes in freedom for the ukrainian people, but not for american women. He believes in the constitution, the constitution, unless you get charged with mass shooting, in which case, summary executions. So, this is a guy whose politics, i mean, hes nice, hes kind, hes warm, he talks real slow, but what hes saying is really, really frightening from my Point Of View and im curious to how republicans listened to that stuff. What he said about all those issues you mentioned will ring true, particularly on the cultural issues around the transgender back and forth that he had with dana. Thats going to ring really true to the average conservative voter in iowa. I think pence thats who he is. Thats who he is. His lane. There arent going to be any Republican Voters out there who are going to say, well, i believe in parental rights so much that i think we ought to let this chemical kas trags go forward, i mean, theres there arent any. Im a democrat, so, im you got i would love to hear how you guys see it, but im going to say, it is really painful to hear have somebody say, im a christian and then you just dont see the compassion or any of the understanding, but again, this is going to be your primary, but not mine. Im not totally sure i agree with that. I know its a very animating issue on the right, the fear around gender affirming care, but there are Republican Voters who have trans kids in this country, and those voters would believe i dont think theres a single i know two Republican Voters with trans kids. Im just this is not a major coalition. In iowa, for mike pence, if its not going to happen in iowa, its not going to happen anywhere. And who he is speaking to, the people that are going to the iowa i dont want to paint with a broad brush. Ive campaigned in all 99 counties, more times than i can care to mention. I have talked to people in every corner of the state of iowa, and i guarantee you, to what scott said, they are not standing around discussing the transgender issue, in terms of the way that you are referring to. The point that mike pence made that i think resonated with them was simply the fact that these decisions should not be made by kids under 18 and parents should be involved in such a life altering decision, if it involves someone under 18. I think thats the point he made there. He did score some points when he talked about his prolife position, he says he is prolife and hes not apologetic about it, and he made the important distinction that republicans are concerned about protecting the sanctity of life, but also after that child is born, republicans will be there, and evangelical community will be there, if they choose to put the child up for adoption as well as Crisis Pregnancy Centers across iowa and the country, of which ive been to many. Heres the thing that i think is going to make a lot of the headlines, but i dont think its particularly important to the people in iowa, but he was so strong today on his comments about the president s decision on january 6th, and saying, if hes going to put himself before the constitution, he should not be the president of the United States again. I agree 100 with that. But when he was back and forth on the issue of these classified documents, in essence, making a regarding joe biden, he basically wiped his argument off the table in terms of if you did crimes, you do the time. Donald trump is more than likely to be indicted on this. If he did the crime, he should do daytime. The fact that pence would not say on the quickly that i am not going to pardon him, that is going to i think its a stylistic common, to vent earlier point. I watched tim scott on the view, watched tim christie last night, what dynamic speakers. They are dynamic candidates. Its the complete opposite of what we saw tonight, right . I know this is the iowa caucus that were talking about, but its who do people get behind . Who do you get excited about . Will you get excited about what mike pence did and said . Fans pointed out, that roger stone was putting out that he would like to have a if you look at Chris Christie who says that the only way to the presidency is neutral trump, and i am going there. When you listen to tom scott saying i am looking through the windshield, not the rearview mirror. There are big stylistic differences that play out. Hopefully, he will have these candidates on a main stage. Do you think is Delivery Routes as authentic . No, its the opposite. I think every question cannot have a speech for an answer. If i ask you to pass this of, i cant have you you just need to pass the salt. He had a dramatic pauses. I am not sure if they are real. He was at the capital. Protected by the Secret Service. Donald trump is sitting at his desk wonder if mike pence will be hanged. I wonder had to be physically supported by the Secret Service there. He said there was a story that mike pence gets in a fight with donald trump. Its that, its not authentic. Authenticity is the king of the room at this level of politics. Nobody ever says, i wish trump would speak his mind. Wherever you think about him, authentic candidates tend to win, and there is an authentic there is a study kind of labored quality tos presentations that are different than what he is campaigning. Just real quick, i have campaigns all over the country. He is much better retail oneonone smaller venues than on a big platform like this. Can i make one last point . The problem is he is, and the bottom line is all of these points that he is making on conservatism, on cultural concerns, he is not alone at their. There are a lot of people competing for the vote. I will take a break. When we come back, will be with the factchecker. Smoke covering more than a dozen states in the northeast. This is our premium platinum coverage map and this is consumer cellulars map. I dont see the difference, do you . Well, that ones purpl [announc] get the exact same coverage as the nations leading carrier. Starting at 20. Consumer cellular. With gold bond. You can age on your own terms. Retinol overnight means. The smoothing benefits of retinol. Are now for your whole body. Plus, fastworking crepe corrector diminishes wrinkled skin in just two days. Gold bond. Champion your skin. Tonight cnn town hall with former Vice President mike pence. Cnns daniel dale is here with me not to fact check. Daniel, the former Vice President made a claim. What do you say . How this is square with the facts . He tried to separate himself from the separation policy. Listen to what he said. The Family Separation Policy actually began under the obama administration, and then we continued it until President Trump directly reversed course. When President Trump said during his presidency, anderson, that he simply inherited the Family Separation Policy from barack obama and eventually ended a, i called that a lie. I will call it light again not that mike pence is saying it. Is just not true. Here is the reality, there is no Blanket Policy for Family Separation under president barack obama. Under a bomb of, to separated from their parents at the border in rare and exceptional cases, if a parent was being prosecuted for caring jokes over the border or Human Trafficking was suspected rare and exceptional. What trump and pence did was way different. They created a whole new policy that made Subversion Routine rather than where. In spring 2018, their a. G. Announced it as a new suppression policy. It was called Zero Tolerance and it was a major change from the obama days. All the adults that crossed the border illegally would be criminally prosecuted, resulting in this adult going to jail. The children were taken to other facilities, so as a result of the new trump pence policy, there were routine separations that did not exist under barack obama. In short, anderson, mike pence here is this honestly distancing comes up from the policy, just like donald trump did. He also talked about abortion tonight. What did he say . How does a stand out . Yeah, our dana bash asked him about the important topic of exceptions for the life of the mother, rape and incest. He made an assertion where he always stood on these questions. Take a listen. Should any federal abortion ban also include exceptions for rape, incest and the life of the weather . Those are exceptions that i always supported, dana, as you know. He was not telling the truth, anderson, when he said he always supported all throughout those exceptions. The cnn kfile reporting competent to this. An antiabortion are still online. Well post it like to it on cnn. Com tonight. I asked, under what circumstances do you believe that abortion should be legal . Again pence the option to select life at the mother only, rip and incest or other. Pence did not choose any at those. Instead, he selected the other option desiccated that abortion should never be legal. He was on record in 2010 projecting exceptions, and then when he ran for reelection in 2012, he answered the same question or. Same option, a box for rape and incest, this time, he checked only the life of the mother. He declined to support rape and incest. Sick whatever he wants about his current position, people change, but his quote, those are exceptions i always supported is just not true. I will add and closing that in congress, he also cosponsored legislation in 2011 to tweak the height amendment to narrow the definition of rape, anderson . Daniel dale, appreciate it. Jake . More reaction to tonights town hall. Were joined by chris wallace, host of whos talking to chris wallace. Whether former President Trump should be indicted if the Justice Department believes that he committed a crime. Tell me, what did you think of his answer . Its a hard one to square, because on one hand, no one is saying that they should be above the law. On the other hand, they say i hope that they find a way not to indict the president , even if he has committed a crime, that would be terribly divisive. Thats a terrible message around the world. I think there are a lot of people who have questions about whether or not they want to see a former president. Committed a crime behind bars, its a hard one to square. Which struck me tonight, jacob, about pences performance was the fact that he really does face some tremendous structural problems. The latest cnn poll, 6 of republicans, republicanleaning voters nationally say they support pence. 45 say that there is no circumstance under which they would ever support pence. What struck me is that on a number of issues, ukraine and the fact that he feels we should be committed to it and cannot allow russia to win, entitlement reform, Social Security reform and medicare reform, he talked repeatedly about being a reagan republican and signing on during the reagan revolution. The question, of course, is whether this is Ronald Reagans party anymore . It seems to be more of Donald Trumps party. Even if you dont end up for voting for donald trump, which you see republican saying that there is no reform of entitlements, Social Security or medicare, and also, an increasing number of them pulling back and terms of a blank check of support for ukraine. I think it would be a very attractive candidate in the 80s with reagan and bush 41. Whether hes an attractive candidate in 2024, even for those looking for an alternative to donald trump, i am not so sure. Mr. Trump certainly reshaping the ideology, if not the makeup of the Republican Party. Also, there are a lot of states banning procedures having to do with Trans Health Care for minors such as lockers or sex reassignment surgery, even at the parents and physicians and psychologist, et cetera, say that this is what the child needs. They asked him about that. Lets play some of that. I strongly support state legislation, including as we get into indiana, that bans Gender Transition, chemical or surgical procedures, for kids under the age of 18. But what if their parents support that . Youre talking about something that is absolutely transformational, and that we know from Mental Health experts, it more often than not as profound negative effects on people in the long term. I think at minimum, its proper for State Governments and state officials to simply say, however adults want to live, they cant live, but for children, are going to protect kids from the radical gender ideology and say, no chemical or surgical Gender Transition before you are 18. What would you say to a transgender kid and their family who say that this is how i feel more comfortable. I dont feel accountable another way, and that they feel you are targeting them . I would tell them to love everybody. I would put my arm around them, and their parents. But before they have a chemical or surgical procedure, i would say wait. Chris, i had a trans girl and her father of my show. I think they are from idaho, a few weeks ago, and one at the issues was i basically set, what do you think about this, way until youre 18 . And she said, i would have killed myself. I know that this is all relatively new in the national discourse. How do you think that he handled it . I think, first of all, i think clearly, he believes it. One of the things that i think came through tonight, whether you agree with it or not was the sincerity of this man and his deep beliefs that come from a lot of it from faith. I also as a political matter, not saying this as a political calculation, that has been mentioned before, for mike pence, he has got to win in iowa, or hes basically out of the race. And the Iowa Republican caucuses, just as a matter of political factor, dominated by christian evangelicals. Whether it is very strong position on abortion, very strong position on School Vouchers and, yes, even missouris strong position on not even allowing parents of children under 18 to have a say in whether or not there can be a gender transformation, i think that plays very well among the people who will be going to those caucuses early next winter. Yeah, lets not forget ten crews won the iowa caucus, beat donald trump, narrowly, but he beat them. Thank so much, chris. Anderson . Jake, we will step a moment away from the top coverage. We can turn to breaking news, that is clearly visible across the northeast. That is the Manhattan Skyline tonight, the empire state building. The view looked better than earlier, still hazy from all the smoke in central canada. New york is one of eight dozen states that encompasses 75 Million People without emergencies in effect. Earlier today, new Jersey Governor Phil Murphy told jake tapper that the conditions in his state are bad or really bad depending on where you are. We got our case is near manhattans union square for us tonight. Youve been out there today. There were times a day, mcgill, that new york city at the worst quality of any major city in the world. People recall smelling and tasting the smoke. How bad is it . Now you can still smell it. What is amazing about that as well, i am sure that you covered many fires and the west is that typically one los angeles or San Francisco get smoked and buy a fire that is nearby, its ten or maybe 30 miles away. These fires are hundreds of miles away. These are such massive fires to have the smoke so far south in a dating a city like new york. Even farther south, philly, washington d. C. , all suffering the effects at this as well. Just incredible. In new york and the area, Major League Baseball games have been postponed. The wnba game has been postponed. There was an actor who was in the middle of a matinee that had to stop today because she wasnt able to go on. So help professionals saying that the best thing you can do, the air quality has improved. Its much better than it was earlier today, but it will be with us for the next 24 to 48 hours. Well have the smoke, and then it may actually move farther west to pittsburgh and other cities and the west, but Health Officials saying that the best thing you can do now is stay indoors. If you had to go outdoors, and you do have underlying issues with breathing in your lungs, a kn95 or n95 mask is the best way to protect yourself from the smoke that we are experiencing, but to see new york turn into an apocalyptic sort of orange haze that you see in other cities, but to see it in new york, its much different. Its also creepy, going inside with the air conditioned, whether central air or window unit, its inside the apartment. His inside your house. Yeah, even empty buildings, the commercial buildings that have good air filtration systems, we could smell it at work all takes the day and today, there is no real way to be completely free of it. But if you can be inside with an air purifier, stay away from the worst of it, that is the best. Weve been out all day. You can feel it in your throat, feel it in your skin. Its clear that there is something in the air, and it will be here for at least another 48 hours. Miguel, appreciate the reporting, thank you. Thanks, anderson. Turning back to tonights town hall in des moines. Day one of mike pences run against donald trump, a stark in the modern era. Specifically, i want to talk about how its playing with the people who watched it in person. For the, lets go to cnns key law, whos in iowa. You are in the audience this afternoon with the former Vice President announcing his candidacy at the town hall. How enthusiastic is the audience . Lets start by clearly and plainly stating that what we saw were not the crowds that would show up a trump rally. Images and the sound that in some ways you may have become accustomed to in our modern, political area. That is not this. That is not what the campaign wants or it is seeking. What we have seen throughout the day at both his first rally and here in the top are crowds that are largely supportive of him. These are crowds that genuinely seem to really like him. We also saw them being very receptive, when we saw the former Vice President talk about issues like fate. It underscores the percentage of evangelical among Iowa Republicans. We also saw that with him when he talked about issues like abortion, a lot of support there. Something else that we really notice in the crowd, after the rally, during the commercial break here at the town hall is mike pence, going into the crowd, and shaking hands and spending well time talking oneonone with people. He couldve sat down during the commercial break and got water. Is that, we saw him take many commercial breaks by engaging, and that is something that this campaign has been telling since the getgo will be a strength. Thats what they want to get him out on the nine count this. Thats how they believe that in those living rooms, they believe that he will be able to chip away at Donald Trumps lead, jake. Kyung lah, how did the Audience React when mr. Pence talked about former President Trump . This is the challenge. This is going to be the challenge ahead, and the campaign plainly and clearly knows it, especially in the early. You could not help but notice that this was a mixed reaction. When mr. Pence tried to land some of his Harshest Criticism against donald trump, when he was most forceful. You saw some and the crowd stand up on their chairs, a standing o, but a good portion of the crowned did not applaud at all. They stayed seated, and this is a pro pence crowd. It is going to be a high wire act. How does he separate himself . The man was president. He was the Vice President today running on its own and trying to force his own path with those three or four years behind him as his legacy. Interesting, kyung lah in des moines, thank you so much, appreciate it. Lets talk more about this with my panel. Jamie gangel, in the last three days, since sunday night, i did a town hall with nikki haley. I interviewed earlier today Chris Christie, and then just this panel on this town hall with mike pence. Obviously, donald trump is a donald trump sized lane for him self interests, and that is big right now. How do you see the other three . The complete contrast. What we saw from nikki haley on sunday night was someone who was quite poised on the stage. She talks about Foreign Policy. What i find most interesting here is pence versus Chris Christie. While mike pence says that he is praying for donald trump, Chris Christie called him out as, quote, lonely, self consumed, self serving i think this afternoon, he used the expression that he was a spoiled baby. Lets say for the record mike pence is the head of Chris Christie and the polls. Chris christie has a lot of work ahead of him, but the republican sources that i talked to see an Important Role for Chris Christie in this campaign because they think he can go on this stage and take it to donald trump in a way that nobody else can, certainly, not mike pence. One at the things i read a great column by jonah goldberg, one of our contributors that rights for dispatch, and the overton window, when you open it and extend it, you make yourself more is at the both the overton window. What Jonas Arguing was that Chris Christie would expand the window as to what is acceptable to say about donald trump. His job is really to put some things on the table so that they are at their, that trump can be challenged about them, asked about them. If he does not do that, he probably will not be part of the conversation. There is reason to believe that is true because when you look at the other candidates, they are really tiptoeing around trump still. We spent about a week talking about Rhonda Scent This and trump going at it. But even that was mild combat. Actually, you heard mike pence talking about trump talking about putin and saying that he knows a dictator when he sees one. And in some ways, hes also trying to draw a contrast with ron desantis because he tried to go after trump on some of the Foreign Policy issues. Pence and christy pence might be ahead of christy, but is not much. Were only talking about 10 of the vote. All of these candidates in that lane, lets call it less than 10 when, they are all really struggling to convince Republican Voters that they matter really at all because i think that there is a sort of sense of irrelevancy that Republican Voters they are like, they are fine. It is conservative principles, and that is great, but there is something that theyre missing that is really not getting them beyond where they are. Even Rhonda Scent This, who is very well funded, well known, gets a lot of good evidence, he struggling to get past 30 . This is trumps party, and no one has proven the ability to dislodge the until this point. In kaitlan, in 2016, hope the republican rivals of donald trump really held a back, and they hoped somebody else would take on donald trump, and then those two with destroy each other and jeb bush and marco rubio, whatever, would emerge as the nominee. Now, they have that someone. Its Chris Christie, he would do it for. Them also, did you see marco rubio the other day basically by May Consultants that told him not to attack trump, go after Chris Christie, and Chris Christie is taking credit for how he handled marco rubio on the debate stage. I do think that we will be rethinking it. Its unavoidable. Its also a different place than we were given whats happened with january six and everything that happened with the ears and the white house. I know pence has to say this, but tonight, when he was talking about the contradiction in saying he will support the nominee, he says he has great confidence in republican primary voters that trump will not be the nominee. Right now, he is far and wait different corner. Two things that stand out to me tonight is that dana was asking about questions that broke with a lot of the republicans that are running on ukraine, saying that he would continue to fund ukraine and also on Social Security saying that trump at the same policy as President Biden, which is that there should be no changes to entitlement. Pence saying that we had to talk about this. They do have to be changes, otherwise, there will be cuts. I think that is where they will battle it out. They want to talk about stuff instead of trump all the time. There were two specific areas where mike pence really did put some daylight between him and the former president. What was on the issue of potentially pardoning the january six defendants, hundreds of people up and prosecuted in that case, including former military officers, freshman officers, many other people who engage in serious violence, including leaders a Domestic Violence extremist groups that have been prosecuted in those cases. Mike pence says that is the rule of law. He wants to clearly be april of law candidate, and he says he will not pardon. Those thats a lot of space between him and trump. The other is on the ukraine war, and that point, mike pence made a very, very Strong Defense of supporting ukraine. Really, there is no daylight between what he was describing and what the Current Administration is doing in terms of providing substantial support to ukraine. There is no indication to a future President Trump do the same. I would observe from interviewing Chris Christie today that Chris Christie and mike pence are aligned on both at those issues when it comes to Law And Order and january six and also support for ukraine. We will have more on the pitch that Vice President pence made and is making two Republican Voters in iowa and across the nation. That is next. Retinol overnight means. The smoothing benefits of retinol. Are e now for your whole body. Plus, fastworking crepe corrector diminishes wrinkleled skin in just two days. Gold bond. Champion your skin. Evas about to learn her fear of missing out leads to overeating. I totally eat stuff to not miss out. And thats just a bit of Psychology Eva learned from noom weight. Sign up now at noom. Com mom hey cheap flight alert daughter hawaii can we go . Dad maybe. Ill put a request in monday. Sfx shattering glass. Theme song unnecessary action hero dad was that necessary . Unnecessary action hero no. Neither is missing this deal. With paycom, vacation is yours to manage. Unnecessary action hero not to mention benefits, scheduling, payroll. Its hr in the palm of your hand. Dad wow. Unnecessary action hero ask your employer about paycom. And make the unnecessary, unnecessary. Dad approved during this evenings town hall in iowa, former Vice President pence was asked about a comment he made earlier today where he said that anyone who puts himself over the constitution should never be president at the United States. He was obviously referring to former President Trump. About an hour later in an interview, he said he would support the eventual republican nominee for president , whomever that may be. Of course, the conundrum, if mr. Pence thinks that mr. Trump should be president , how could a potentially support him as the nominee . This was his response. He just spent a time both here and earlier today explaining why you think that the former president did not uphold his oath to the constitution, so theyre not can you say that you would support him if he is the nominee . Because i dont think that donald trump will be the nominee. But what if he is . I dont think it will be the nominee. I have great confidence and the republican primary voters. We have a field of strong and experience candidates that grew by one today, and i truly do believe that people here in iowa are going to recognize the challenges that were facing and understand that different times call for different leadership. The American People dont look backwards. We look forward. I truly do believe whatever the polls show and whatever the pundits are saying, when the time comes, the people of iowa took a fresh look at all of us to step forward. I dont think my old running mate is going to be the republican nominee for president. I am confident, very confident that i will be able to support the republican nominee for president of the United States, and i hope its me. I am joined now by our chief National Affairs correspondent, jeff zeleny. Jeff, how do you think Vice President pence did differentiating himself from the former president tonight, while also trying to court some trump voters . Look, its a careful and difficult balancing act. You can see him in almost every word theyre trying to walk this very fine line, but it was notable how much more aggressive he was this afternoons Announcement Speech that he was to an audience of voters, and that is something that he is going to have to square. Yes, he drew some sharp distinctions. He said he would not pardon the january six protesters. He said he would revisit the Sentencing Commission that the Trump Administration did. We call that the former president on ukraine, but he was not nearly as strong. You kind of wonder, just usings own words, he said that voters want to look forward and on fresh leaders. Does he fit that category, and thus this description of his midwestern sensibilities, indiana nice, his mine, he think he is going at the day former president pretty significantly. But we know and he knows, his advice as well know, that the Trump Supporters are not available likely to mike pence. Its the Strong Enough for him . Its something that has been working on for the last year or more. We sort of seen this crescendo. He would say privately, not on camera. Hes working up to it, but i think its a careful balancing act, and hes not the loudest force in the room on this. Chris christie is at this point. The voters have other options here, but heat makes them feel accountable. Hes a deep fiscal conservative. Well see if that is enough for the Republican Voters. Chris christie is the latest on this. I would say Governor Asa Hutchinson from arkansas a second, and then there is a long drop, maybe nikki haley there. Mr. Pence also said to ultimately, this is like a President Biden and Vice President harris and their policies would ultimately unite the Republican Party, but is it effort really that simple, especially if it is a truly bruising primary . I certainly looks like were heading towards a bruising primary. I am not sure if history is our best guide here, because we have a former Vice President running against a former president. Were in Uncharted Waters here. What if trump does not become the nominee and does not accept the results. What would that do to the Republican Party . This is a long conversation. Republican leaders are dreading, but they know that they will have to have. I think the idea of a Biden Administration, the idea of a biden harris second confirm or bring around a lot of republicans, but it depends who the nominee is. I think that the next six or seven months or so is complicated for the Republican Party, depending on how many republicans are on the debate stage, of course. I dont think its as simple as just saying, but for us and not for them. All right, jeff sony, thank you so much. Anderson . Jake, back with the team here in new york. One of the things that the former Vice President talked about was the first which he seemed to talk initially as being tough on crime, and then walked away from one day in a pointed out that ron desantis has been pushing against it. More mr. Pretzel man stuff. The thing i think is sad about explained what the First Step Act is . It was a criminal Justice Reform measure that passed under a bipartisan basis under donald trump. 87 senators signed on to it. That wouldve been 88 if Lindsey Graham got off the plane at the time. It was a massive success. They think about it is, it worked. This is the crazy thing. Nobody talks about the actual facts. Usually about half the people who leave federal person get in trouble quickly. With the first step back, its not 50 or 45, its top percent of the people who came home under the, got in trouble. Its a miracle, and why . Because they took a set of categories of offenders, of offenses and set with these folks, if you work hard, if you take classes, if you get ready to come home, well let you come home early. While in person while in person, so you can earn your way home a little bit earlier, so they came home. And they did not get in trouble. Everybody from nancy pelosi to donald trump should be cheering about this, but instead, rather than pence saying this is the most that could have done for community safer, i made to safer from this, he backed away from it. Hes complaining the first step back with tougher on crime. He was saying they were asking, what would you do to make the mom safer . Ben knows, youre on the front once on the. I worked with van and thought was a pretty major step forward. By company to, it is not make it was a missed opportunity for the Vice President. Although desantis, he got bullied into that decision. The same thing with Red Flag Laws. He had an opportunity, kind of a little there, not there, the Red Flag Laws have worked wildly successfully in the state of florida. They were implemented by republican legislators, signed by republican governors, in my county and lee county, florida, its successful republican support. I do want to bring in elie honig, who had not heard from, our legal analyst. Sauter was stuck to you tonight . First of all, when mike pence tried to say on the one hand, nobody should be above the law. But on the other, even if the doj think that there was a crime committed, they should not prosecute donald trump. There is no squaring those two. The other things that stood out to me is that i think we got a preview about what the Talking Point would be in the republican field about a potential Trump Indictment based on maralago. What did mike pence say . He said its not fair because its all the same. What donald trump did, what joe biden did, What Gillooly did. The trouble there is that there are similarities, but they are not the same, and each case stands on its own. I think the best illustration but that is mike pences own case. The recent mike pence is not being charged even though he did across about documents is that he had no knowledge and no criminal intent. If that is different with donald trump, then we are going to see a different outcome. Get ready for the Talking Points as we go through the campaign. I dont think they hold up as a matter of law. Alyssa, do you think that is going to be i think Scott Jennings said this earlier. I think the most revealing part of the town hall is that he wants the biggest Applause Line was him saying that no one is about the law but then back peddling and suggesting that there is a two senior system of justice that joe this is what was so problematic. If i were still briefing Vice President pence, i would tell him that we dont know the facts of the indictment yet if we will come down. We dont know what it might entail, if it might be under the espionage act. To jump to the conclusion that we will defend them in advance is also narrowing your own plan to get a nomination, you have to beat donald trump. You had to be in a safe place. The facts did not matter if you consider the point about the double standard, which republicans already believe that if the bidens get away with everything, the clintons get away with everything, but im a trump gets disdain for everything. But when you look at the war thats being waged right now on the fbi but the House Republicans, theres news about that tonight, the Committee Under Jaime Comer will look at the documents. Is fighting with the doj and fbi, all further reduces any level of trust that any republican will have in a federal indictment of any kind. Whatever the facts are, i think then give us the preview. Donald trump sent a mob to the capitol to count mike pence, and he is out here defending him. Its pretty telling for what he is hearing. Just to say, again, i am a democrat, this is a republican tonight, but there is a two tier system of justice, and its against people who are poor, people from wrong zip codes who can afford lawyers, who have brown skin. So for the republicans not to say that there is a two tier system of justice and it is against donald trump, and the rich wealthy elites, its painful. I understand that it makes the conversation, but its divorced from reality. Trump picks his looks on these panels and so on. He does have a Pharaoh Genius for setting up the constructs. His whole campaign is essentially but for this purpose in some ways, which is to say, when they come after him, this is the deep state trying to silence me. He has a whole lot of people following him. What you saw tonight is mike pence essentially acknowledging that and not wanting to take on the movement that trump has built behind him. I think the bottom line is that the cake is baked on his face. If an indictment comes down on the case and any other legal jeopardy that he is facing, they are going to stand by him. If anything, they will be involved in. Let me see Something Big picturewise. We had a few big town halls, opened up viewers eyes to a lot of candidates, and well have more. I will just say this on the republican side at the table, i think we have made a lot of progress in the last four years. 2020, we had an embarrassment. The sheer, we have an embarrassment of riches. We have great candidates who are forward thinking, optimistic and to davids point, they are charismatic and willing to go out there on the trail and work hard to win over these votes. Many of them are ready to turn the page. I am encouraged by the fact that we have many choices out there. Yeah hey, anderson, lets end on. I am pretty jacked over here. Pretty jacked the Vice President tried to use the war on ukraine to attack two of his top rivals for the nomination for president. Well be right back. [narrator] why is aaron happy . Well, just days ago, his old wheels gave out. But he knew carvana had his back. Thats because carvana had Tens Of Thousands of cars under 20,000. So aarons folks could help him out with a sweet ride. [aaron] no way. [narrator] yes way. With the most cars under 20,000 and our car vending machines, well drive you happy at carvana. Every day, businesses everywhere are asking. Is it possible . With comcast business. 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What message does that say to Vladimir Putin . Well and frankly when Vladimir Putin rolled into ukraine, the former president called him a genius. I know the difference between 18 years and a war criminal, and i know who needs to win in the war of ukraine, and its the people fighting for their freedom and fighting to restore their National Sovereignty in ukraine. America, its not our war, but freedom is our fight, and we need to get the people of ukraine a good fight. I am joined now by Cnn Senior International correspondent sam kiley, who is talking to us from ukraines capital of kyiv. I know it is like there, sam. How do you think former Vice President pences answer will be viewed in kyiv . I think it will be viewed very positively indeed, as i think will be the applause that followed his unequivocal statement there that he would be backing ukraine. Not that president zelenskyy here, a skilled diplomat, well draw attention to it. There are serious jitters within the Ukrainian Administration about the future support from the u. S. , if there is a republican presidency. That, of course, is a long way off. They are close indeed to the Biden Administration, the American People of the Biden Administration are generous indeed to ukraine. They know that without american support, that would probably i would probably be standing here under russian to tillage, certainly under russian attack, jake. I think it will be strongly welcomed indeed, this absolute unequivocal position but mister pence. Yeah, we heard a similar thing from Chris Christie in my interview with him today. Governor nikki haley and the top of what we had with her, on sunday, author of them having deposition. Whats your sense of how the kremlin will view the comments of mike pence and Chris Christie and mickey elie, all of whom have been very much in favor of the ukrainians, close to putin and as were . I think that they will have a favorite in this race, without question, that will be donald trump, and definitely, top of the list of Vladimir Putins preferred precedence at the ignited states. I think almost rhetoric and the kremlin that there does seem to be disunity among determining the other potential candidates and the primaries. The kremlin has been rather banking or hoping to be able to bank on republicans putting pressure on fiscal pressure on the funding runs that supply the much needed weapons here, particularly air defenses and quite probably up to pay for f16s, for example. Some very hefty items on the federal budget that they would be hoping that republicans would a shot away from signing off on. With a relative level of unanimity with the exception of donald trump, its clear what the kremlin will stand on that. All right, sam kiley, thank you so much, appreciate it. Next, back to the debate. We touched on this a moment ago. More on what the former Vice President would say about crime and Criminal Justice in the United States. Our john miller will join anderson right after the break. My name is shannon knight, and i own little knights daycare. Carolina sports incorporated. A paradise for parents. Lomita feed, current caretaker and owner. We did not know anything about the Employee Retention credit. That is a legitimate tax credit. So Innovation Refunds has really helped guide me through the process. Just had to get a few of my records together, submit that, and they made it as painless as possible. I cant thank Innovation Refunds enough for what they did. How can you sleep on such a firm setting . Gab, mine is almost the same as yours. Almost. Just another word for not as good as mine. The queen sleep number c2 smart bed is now only 899 save 200. Plus, 48month financing on all beds. Shop now only at sleep number. So, youve got the power of xfinity at home. Now take it outside with Xfinity Mobile. Like speed . Its the Fastest Mobile Service around. With the best price for two lines of unlimited. Only 30 bucks a line per month. Thats hundreds in savings a year when you wave bye to the other guys. No wonder Xfinity Mobile is one of the Fastest Growing mobile services. You really shouldnt walk out the front door without it. Switch today at xfinitymobile. Com. Come back, i discuss this with our panel earlier, the former Vice President s position on the first step back. Heres what he said on the policy that he called a step back. How would you handle the increased crime rates in our major cities . First and for most, i would say that we would not defund the police in this country. We will support, come in we passed what was called the first and ask at the federal level. President trump sunday into law. When i was governor of indiana, we sent similar legislation, but in the statement that we passed, we not only created an opportunity but tried to reduce recidivism, people going back to prison over and over again, it reduced our in life to make an honest living, but we also raised the penalties. We raised the path of these on serious offenders. [interpreter] we need to get serious and tough on Violent Crime and we need to give our cities the capacity to restore lawyer. Governor ron desantis has said he wants to repeat if elec. I need i think we need to take a step back and rethink the first step back. Weve got a crime wave in our major cities. I think now more than ever we might make penalties tougher on people that are victimizing families in this country. On that point, i would agree with others. Cnn chief and loan Law Enforcement analyst Jonathan Miller was watching the debate. I want to know what stood out to. You clearly he prepared for the question, but he is also trapped in some of the conundrums of standard republican platform which is, full support of the police he comes out for. Stiffer sentences for criminals. Swift Capital Punishment for school shooters. He talked about Accelerator Due Process leading to execution. Thats right. And more police in schools. On the other hand, when you talk to him about, and he brought this, of the south side of chicago, memorial day weekend, 45 shootings, ten people dead, his parents grew up there. He said it was very sad for chicago, but not in favor of sweeping gun control measures, assault weapons bans, Red Flag Laws, which really relates to the active shooters, the mass shootings. He said we dont want to take guns away from people who lawfully possessed them, so with a full support of police, there are places where he finds himself at odds with the International Association of chiefs of police, the National Association he did also point out from chicago a lot of the guns come from his state of indiana. Thats right. Didnt go over particularly well. This is a thing where you also have to ask, what are you prepared to do as president is going to be different but also, what effect the president can have on laws that are largely controlled by State Legislators and elected District Attorneys about enforcement. Appreciated. Thanks so much. Anderson, thanks so much, some final thoughts now from our panel. Lets talk about criminal Justice Reform, because first of all donald trump himself has criticize criminal Justice Reform bill. We have mike pence, separating from, antron desantis, called it like a projailbreak bill or something. What do you think . I think one of the questions is, beyond just the issue of Criminal Justice, mike pence had an opportunity tonight to talk about the crisis in policing. He talked about not wanting to defund the police, which is one political Talking Point. But the real crisis in policing is one of police leaving the Police Forces and recruitment. The Fraternal Order Of Police enters an absolute crisis in police recruitment. Nobody wants to become a Police Officer right now because the environment is so difficult, the job is so difficult. Its in part related to the gun problem, because Many Police Chiefs are in favor of some level of gun safety. Sure. The cops are outgunned. And also the environment that has made it more difficult for Police Policing in general, and the criticism of police out of common respond to acts of police brutality. So there is a real problem in policing, and mike pence may be in the future will talk about it a bit, because its an issue that some candidate is going to have to address if this country wants to make forward progress on safety in cities. I think you will hear on the Campaign Trail from Line Republicans that the answer is just that police are being demonized and thats the end of the story. But its obviously a lot more complex than that. The solution will be more complex. I will also say that on the First Step Act its not particularly surprising to see pence walking that back. I covered the Trump Administration when they were trying to pass this, and republicans by and large i really never fully on board with this. This was always something that the likes of senator tom cotton has been vocally against. The attorney general bill barr at the time was privately against it, publicly very lukewarm on it. But it is sad, because i think some of the cases that they cite are actually quite rare. The First Step Act was supposed to speak to more broadly than they need the need for the criminal Justice System to be responsive to people turning their lives around, to people getting sentences that were disproportionate to the crime or not even proportionate to other people of different races who committed the same crimes. But thats not the kind of nuanced conversation were gonna have in this cycle. Iowa city represents a huge turnaround. Trump wanted to do that, because they thought they could Make Inroads With Black voters and with voters of color. This cycle i think were going to see kind of an equal and opposite force. I think the cultural wars are back with a vengeance, and mike pence walking that back is the clear sign, i think we have seen thus far, that that is exactly how this race is going to be. Run by the, way donald and did Make Inroads With Black and latino voters. He just lost all those white voters in the suburbs. You are covering the white house when trump signed that into law. But its one of the areas where trump normally has pretty good where the Republican Bases. We saw that in 2016, was not alive in the sense aligned with how majority of republicans felt. But this is what is going to be so interesting to watch when theyre on the debate stage, which is how ponce, running now against trump, distances himself the from things they did while he was very much is Vice President. Its not just on this. Its also on guns. You heard them talking about Red Flag Laws earlier. Hes also distanced himself from things that he and trump are pushing for, mainly, trump after the parkland, shooting things like red flag, was potentially raising the age to buy guns like ar15s. Those are things that pence has now come out and distance himself from. So how do you cite your experience as a Vice President but also distance yourself from the decisions that your Administration Made . Also a question for nikki haley, who i think is gonna be in a similar boat and some of the trump era policies. It does seem though that donald trump is not going to be the most conservative candidate in the race. Rhonda santas and mike pences to his right on many issues, even more to the right of ron desantis when it comes to more traditional republican policies. None of them are donald trump and right now that is what the Republican Base wants. They are, i mean, the difference in the numbers, 29, 30 points . Hes leading by . With all of the baggage of january 6th. With all of the indictments. And some pending. And some banding. By the way, i will just say a former senior Justice Department official said to me, when we heard about the Target Letter today, quote, buckle up. So there is a sense in that community, this is going forward. I just want to go back to something we discussed earlier, which was, former Vice President Vice Mike Pence said i have no interest or no intention of pardoning anyone who broke the law. No one is above the law. But with regard to, with donald trump, unique circumstances here right, so very Law And Order wakes up when it comes to one man. And lets remember, trump is under investigation about january 6th. Sure. So this will be another opportunity for pence to weigh in on whether or not he should face charges in that case as well and whether he would pardon him. Very, very interesting. My thanks to the panel with me here in washington, d. C. , and everyone else out there for staying up. So goodnight from here. And jake, the best they were staying up late, is you can get the unconditional tonight town hall, which is next. Good night. My a1c was up here; now, its down with rybelsus®. His a1c . Its down with rybelsus®. 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