Transcripts For CNNW Cuomo Primetime 20180918

That irritashirt was too big. That shirt violates ive got to take a cue from you, you know. Youve got the gun show going on. If it doesnt cut off circulation, its too big. Do you have a permit, by the way, for that gun . Ha dont make me laugh. Im on too many drugs. Anderson, youre the man. Be well. Im chris cuomo. Welcome to partticuomo prime youve heard the headlines. Well dig in much deeper tonight and talk about what happens next for judge kavanaugh. Shell testify next to prove her claims. She is dr. Ford. He, judge kavanaugh, will testify to clear his name. And it will all unfold before america next monday in a setting and before senators that may inspire more doubt than the process requires. The court of Public Opinion will hear the kavanaugh Sexual Assault allegations and you will decide whether they are true. The stakes, a lifetime appointment to the Supreme Court, influence on key questions that will define our society. Questions that wont just be answered on the Supreme Court. Lots of legal minds here tonight to argue this case, including Stormy Daniels attorney and possible president ial candidate, michael avenatti. A hidden headline in all the kavanaugh chaos, were not going to let it go here. The president has ordered the declassification and public release of a trove of documents and text related to the russia probe. Did he cross a red line . Thats what a top democrat says. Tonight, we have two hours of primetime. What do you say . Lets get after it tonight, Brett Kavanaughs Supreme Court confirmation is suddenly not a lock. The Senate Judiciary committee is about to weigh dueling testimonies. Its the judges word against a california professor named Christine Ford. They are set to clash at a public hearing next monday, which, by the way, almost didnt happen. Michael avenatti joins me now. Hes Stormy Daniels attorney, you know that. No stranger to filing cases that harken back more than a decade. So lets start, first of all, thanking you for being here. Appreciate it, counselor. Its an important point to make. The idea of, well, this was so long ago, well never know. Cases all the time are about things that happened long ago. Its not just about time. Its about corroboration and what you can find to help tell the story that indicates the truth. Fair point . I think that is fair, chris. But this is a very serious matter. Were talking about a lifetime appointment to the u. S. Supreme court. And youre talking about basically instilling judge kavanaugh as, you know, i use the term, a king. Because these individuals that are put on the court basically are kings. I dont think a lot of people have an appreciation for how much power they have and possess for decades after having been on the court. And in my view, chris, if the president was smart, if he wasnt so arrogant, he would see the writing on the wall and he would pull this nomination immediately pull the nomination . pull the nomination, absolutely. Look, theres a lot of qualified judges and attorneys in the United States that can fill this role, my understanding is that dr. Ford has already passed a Lie Detector Test. If donald trump was smart and hes not, he would pull the nomination, and he would move to the next nominee on the list and start over. You know, its an interesting point. Because hes actually, the president , been getting some credit headed in the opposite direction. That given so much politicization of this already by the senators involved, he actually sounded somewhat reasonable today when he said this. You would have thought, certainly, that she would have brought it up at the meeting, not wait until everythings finished and then have to start a process all over again. But with all of it being said, we want to go through a full process. At least he was saying what a lot of republicans werent saying that. Yeah, youve got to vet this, youve got to go through it. They have to be heard. At least he was offering that, because this testimony were going to see on monday, michael, was not a given. You know, as you know, cornyn and others were saying, he didnt want to reward the democrats for what they are calling like a hail mary pass. What do you make of that suggestion, that the democrats held this until the last moment . Well, i dont know all the circumstances surrounding how long they held it. It seems to be that they held it for a couple of months, which raises in my mind questions as to why it was held for so long. I think it should have been aired a lot earlier, frankly. I think its a heck of a risk to hold on to something this explosive until the 11th hour. But again, chris, im going to go back to what i said. Theres no need to go forward this nomination at this stage in light of this accusation, in light of the passage of the Lie Detector Test. Why go through this hearing on monday . Its going to be an absolute circus show. Its going to harken us back to 27 years ago. Judge Clarence Thomas hearing, im sure you remember it, i remember it. I know theres certain senators on that panel that would like to forget what happened and how much disrespect was shown to anita hill at the time. I just think if the president was smart, Everything Else going on right now, he ought to pull the nomination and nominate someone anew. What does that set, though, as a precedent, that an accusation is enough . When you havent even really proven look, were on the same page here, i hope, culturally, me too, that you have to give everybody a chance to be heard. You cannot sweep allegations aside because theyre uncomfortable or they play the dynamics that we want to protect in the moment. But that said, if you make accusation or allegation the bar of whether or not you stay or go, michael, what does that set up for the future . Thats a very good point, chris. But i think were beyond that, from what i understand, relating to the Lie Detector Test being passed, which, of course, is not admissible in a court of law, but Lie Detector Tests are used routinely for Law Enforcement and security clearances at the highest levels of the federal government. And i think it was just last week, in fact, that Vice President pence was suggesting that Lie Detector Tests be used in connection with ferreting out who wrote the anonymous memo. Its going to be curious as to whether all of a sudden the administration believes that the Lie Detector Test that dr. Ford passed is unreliable. Were not talking about a mere accusation or an allegation. And heres another important point. This isnt going to be adjudicated in one day or even two days. An accusation of this nature could not be fully adjudicated in that short a period of time before the Senate Judiciary committee. You would need a couple of weeks, at a minimum, for the presentation of evidence. Sure. Youd need more witnesses called other than dr. Ford and judge kavanaugh. True. This would have to go through an extensive process. And to what end . Theres other individuals that are more qualified than this judge to sit on the Supreme Court and his nomination should be pulled. Well, look, i take your point on that. I do think as a middle ground, they could have given it to the fbi and taken it away from the senators. At least give the senators a basis of information for what their questions will be coming from. Otherwise, theyre just really going to be shooting in the dark here. And the fbi could have done that. It doesnt seem that theyll be allowed to. The white house could ask them to do it. There hasnt been any move there. Well see. While i have you, a lot of this is about the politics of perception and what people want to be true. You were a combatant of that recently, not only with the president of the United States, but on fox news. I want to play a clip of this for people, if they didnt see it. Why dodge the question . Look, you traveled here policy advisers who have worked on other campaign to the show tonight. I didnt travel here policy advisers. Can i let me ask you a question why dont you get a tv show and then you can ask me a question. I asked you a simple question that youre not answering the question. Why is it you dont call donald trump the creepy porn president . Hes the one who had sex a 4monthold son at home my client without a condom. But you dont want to acknowledge that. You dont want to acknowledge that. So Tucker Carlson there, obviously attack dog for the president. He called you the creepy porn lawyer. He was trying to get you to talk the president , but really, it was about the politics of perception. He needs you to be a bad guy, because you represent a movement to expose this president as something other than the golden calf that he sees him as. So whyd you go . Well, i went, chris, because, you know, i consider myself a fighter. I consider myself a fighter for the Democratic Party and a fighter for this nation and the ideals and the rights that are at risk, at severe risk right now in our history. And you cant call yourself a fighter and then duck fights and not go on a show like Tucker Carlson and go toe to toe somebody like that. Look, i was completely disrespected on the show. Youve gone toe to toe a number of guests, kellyanne and others. Youve never shown them anything close to that amount of disrespect. And i think Tucker Carlson was shown to be the clown that he was. Youre not going to get an argument from me on that. But theres a difference. And i think it does wind up reflecting back on to what were going to see on monday. People arent open. Theyre not decent. Its about integrity. And we have to hope that the people who are elected look, Tucker Carlson gets paid to be exactly what he was in that interview. But the men and women who are going to be sitting on that panel and listening to the testimony on monday, we put them there for a very different reason. Theyre not supposed to stoke what is worst about us. Theyre supposed to bring out what is best. And well see if it happens. Michael avenatti, you get points you certainly get points for putting your dukes up. Thats for sure. And thank you for being on primetime, as always. Thanks, chris. All right. Were going to take a much deeper dive into these kavanaugh allegations. What do we know . What we dont know. And what we may never know. And then you do have this question of timing. Why is it coming out now and what does it mean . Well lay it out all next for you, facts first. Opportunity is everywhere. Like here. And here. See . Opportunity. Hi cinturones por favor. Gracias. Everywhere. About to be parents. Its doing a lot of kicking down there. Meeting the parents. Its gonna be fine. And this driver, logging out to watch his kid hit one out of the. Go dani, go opportunity is everywhere. All you have to do to find it is get out. Here. If your moderate to severeor crohns symptoms are holding you back, and your Current Treatment hasnt worked well enough it may be time for a change. Ask your doctor about entyvio®, the only biologic developed and approved just for uc and crohns. Entyvio® works at the site of inflammation in the gi tract, and is clinically proven to help many patients achieve both symptom relief and remission. Infusion and serious allergic reactions can happen during or after treatment. Entyvio® may increase risk of infection, which can be serious. Pml, a rare, serious, potentially fatal brain infection caused by a virus may be possible. Tell your doctor if you have an infection experience frequent infections or have flulike symptoms, or sores. Liver problems can occur with entyvio®. If your uc or crohns treatment isnt working for you, ask your gastroenterologist about entyvio®. Entyvio®. Relief and remission within reach. All right. Look. We dont know what happened, if anything, between Brett Kavanaugh and Christine Ford at a party in their high school years. The truth is, we may never know the truth. But i do know the truth of whats happening now. And its going to turn ugly quickly, i fear. Facts first. And this is going to be a quick list, because so much is in dispute. We have the allegation from dr. Ford. She says that she and kavanaugh were at a party in maryland in the early 80s. She claims she was pushed into a bedroom, where she says kavanaugh groped her, tried to take her clothes off, and placed his hand over her mouth when she tried to scream. Now, judge kavanaugh says none of that ever happened, period. Proof . Corroboration, which is key. Dont get up caught up in when something happened, get caught up in truth and corroboration through other testimony. So here, there is someone identified by the doctor of having been there, a friend of kavanaughs, his name is mark judge, he was allegedly in the room, as i said. He calls the story absolutely nuts saying, he never saw brett act that way, thats his quote. Now, first, while it is true that there was no report at the time by ford, as far as we know, dr. Ford did not just say it right now for the first time, do you understand the point there . Dr. Ford first told her story in 2012. Not in the 80s. Nobodys saying she did, as far as we know at this point. But it wasnt just brought up now by her. 2012, while in therapy with her husband. The husband backs it up. The Washington Post says, so do the therapists notes. Now, we have to be sensitive here to when women come forward. Forget about politics, just for a second. Disclosures like this are difficult. And it is wrong to see the delay as a sign of dishonesty. Any expert who knows the field will tell you that. Timing, however, is a legitimate question in looking at how this came to light on the political side. So in july, as kavanaughs name starts being reported on the short list for the Supreme Court, dr. Ford reaches out to the Washington Post and to her congresswoman, dr. Anna eshoo, but she didnt want her name in the press, thats a key fact. Later that month, after President Trump nominated kavanaugh, ford contacted the ranking democrat on the Senate Judiciary committee, dianne feinstein, but still insisted she wanted to remain anonymous. That created a twist here, a tension. Early august, she took a Lie Detector Test at the suggestion of her lawyer, not the lawmakers, and the Washington Post says she passed. Not admissible in court, but it is some reliability to her testimony for the court of Public Opinion, with alalso kno you. So why didnt we hear about it then . She didnt want to go public. She didnt want to go through the ordeal. Now, senator feinstein had the information, but never mentioned it during senator kavanaughs confirmation hearings or during the senates private confirmation conversations with him. It was not until last week that the story broke. Why then . It leaked because dr. Ford came forward, the media was figuring out the details, she thought she was going to be exposed anyway. Thats her call. Feinstein is being criticized for her call. Did she have a duty to the process to inform the fbi or the committee sooner . Its a legitimate question. So now what . The first thing that happens now, i worry about is ugly politics. Left and right. It really isnt even democrat and republican anymore, if you think about it. You think about how rarely we use those terms. Because, why . Its so instinctual now rather than party politics. They, went right into the blame game with each other. The democrats sprung this at the last minute, thats what the gop says. And what do the democrats say . The gop wasnt respecting the allegation by slowing the vote. So where is the truth to be found in all of this . The blame game is so obnoxious that President Trump seemed to be a Reasonable Voice on this today. And we know his track record on issues and what he says. Even he says, you have to go through the process of figuring out the situation and give people a chance to be heard. And luckily, that notion prevailed. And both ford and kavanaugh will testify on monday. At least theyll have that chance. Now, heres the critical part. Whats going to happen now . I just have this one point for you, because thats really where it begins and end. Theyre going to testify under oath, okay . But they will do so in a committee and a confirmation process thats been rightly attacked as a farce. Candor is in the closet. The game is to say as little as possible. Its about the politics of perception. It is the wrong place to figure out something as complex as this. Now, what could have happened . This is going to be one step away from us, but listen to this. They could have added a step here. The white house should go to the fbi and say, open up the background again. Take this information. Take a look. Do some the digging. What can you corroborate . What can you find . What should we know . At least at that point, the senators could ask educated questions about this, know what theyre talking about, other than just spewing questions that reflect selfinterest, as opposed to the interest in the truth. Now, why do i have this up there . Because although i dont love it as an analogy, this is the closest thing we have in current history as to what happens in a situation like this with the Supreme Court. Clarence thomas, anita hill. Again, its not a direct analogy. Why . Lots of reasons. It was back in 1991, anita hill had come forward already at the time about recent events. They were both adults. There was testimony. But, still, there is an analogy, because there was no dispositive truth developed. It wound up being about the court of Public Opinion. And what did we learn . The polls showed that people were actually more for Clarence Thomas after what they heard from anita hill. So is this the best look . No. And heres why i dont think it is. I think times have changed. I think allegations by women thanks to the me too movement and slowly like tectonic plate cultural change, we now know, everybody has a right to be heard. You cannot brush aside allegations a as a delay tactic or to protect something that you value in the moment. However, this will be a test of the me too era. Giving the truth the best chance to come out has to be the priority before any other political goal. Lets see if it will be on monday. Now, if this were a trial in a court of law, how would this court or how would this case size up . We have a great set of lawyers to put exactly that question to their minds and you judge, next join tmobile, and get netflix included. So your family can watch what they love in more places. Get an unlimited family plan with netflix on us. And right now, buy one Samsung Galaxy s9 and get one free. Oscar mayer deli fresh ham has no added nitrates, nitrites or artificial preservatives. Now deli fresh flavor is for everyone. Like those who like. Sweet. Those who prefer heat. And those who just love meat. Oscar mayer deli fresh. A fresh way to deli. Take us downtown, waze. 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The problem is, its equally obvious that its so unlikely to be proven. So how do we judge this allegation from dr. Ford . Lets bring in aisha rangappa and ken cuccinelli. Good to have you both. Lets get to that issue and then i want to talk about how the politicians are dealing with this. Aisha, she said it happened, he said it didnt. She said he said is nothing unusual in the law. How do we assess in a court of Public Opinion, being that it doesnt seem that the white house will give it back to the white house to investigate. I agree with you, chris, that thats a mistake and we can talk about that. In a he said she said situation, you are assessing the credibility of the people who are speaking. You know that from people who go on the witness stand. That is just a judgment call. Unless you have corroborating evidence, you know, this is going to be Clarence Thomas 2. 0. But at least i do think, i agree with you that the president was reasonable today in allowing the process to be robust and at least have both accounts be heard out in the open. It was a little surprising. Ken, lets deal with that in terms of the politics of perception. The president said, youve got to hear both sides. Frankly, i was surprised to hear him say that. It was good to hear him say that. Kellyanne conway, his senior adviser, said this she should not be insulted. She should not be ignored. She should testify under oath. And she should do it on capitol hill. But thats up to the Senate Judiciary committee. They need to decide the forum. And judge kavanaugh should also testify as to these 36yearold allegations. 100 . Good to hear her say that. You know, not shame the woman making the allegation in this situation. He should testify. So should mark judge, by the way. If they can subpoena him and bring him in, hes the only other person who we know was there in contemporaneous fashion at the same time. However, then donald trump jr. Put this out on twitter. And im sorry hes relevant, the president has made him relevant. This note is this ugly sign of disrespect. He wants to go after anderson cooper, thats one thing. Anderson can easily show him to be a fool and a fraud. But what do you think, ken, of this type of tactic by someone close to the president . Well, first of all, lets start with the president. I think the president said the right thing he did. And kellyanne, no surprise, ive known kellyanne for a long time. Those are the people who are actually at the levers of power, starting with the president. I dont appreciate the item from his son, but it really doesnt have the relevance here that the president s statement does. True. And even kellyanne, to a far much lesser extent. True. All fair points. The reason i bring him up and let me follow up on that. The president s comment made it easier for the senate to actually introduce, to change the schedule yes. Which can be viewed as a tactic here. The democrats want to push this back and this is consistent with that. So it does have that look about it. Heres the thing. But this is a serious allegation. I would not say its Clarence Thomas 2. 0, because though were adults. Were not even that close in time to this. That was months and years before the allegation was aired. This was 35plus years back to high school. Two things. One, the way this is being dealt with is not ant basis of facts, not on the basis of right and wrong, not on the basis of what culturally, we should be requiring of our ourselves. Thats why i bring up trump but we need to try to keep it i know, thats why i bring up tr trump jr. Because he is the reflection of an ugliness thats going to be tried to be made manifest here. And did feinstein have a duty to give this suggestion of an allegation to the committee or to the fbi, even if it was done under the cloak of anonymity . I think she did. Her role as a senator is to provide advice and consent to the nominees. These nominees go through a background check. The background check is there, not to only check for, you know, a criminal record, but about character and fitness. Youre a lawyer. Ken is a lawyer. We know that this is a part of being a member of the bar and definitely on the bench. So i think that this definitely should not have come up at the 11th hour. But having now that it is, i have to say that as an investigator, had it come up in the course of the background check, this is a pr pry ma fash allegation. The fact that she told other people earlier, there are notes from her therapist. The story hasnt changed. The Lie Detector Test, that would warrant further investigation. Look, that becomes our quandary here, ken. And were going to spend two blocks on this tonight, because there are so many issues to look into. Whats the standard for us . You said with anita hill, they were adults. Okay. So if you do it as a kid, is it different . I would submit yes. Can people change as they get older . We would all submit yes. Sure. But if the measure is, who gets on the Supreme Court, what do you make the standard . And every senator is going to decide that. And part of the problem here, especially as lawyers talk about it, is this doesnt get due process, as we think of due process. This is going to be done under the klieg lights, and i dont envy either of these two, in particular. But you do look for those corroborating elements. And as somebody who worked on Sexual Assault prevention for several years, especially with young people, what i would tell you and i ran into this as an attorney general, as well is predators, people who are sexually predacious repeat. It isnt a oneoff occurrence. And theres no other evidence of that with judge kavanaugh. Maybe Something Else will come up, but theres been an awful lot of attempts to smoke that kind of thing out, and it hasnt come out. Thats item number one. Item number two is the only other person in the room flatly denies that it happened. So so far, the only person with corroboration that is specific to the incident in question is judge kavanaugh. Even the therapist notes dont identify kavanaugh. It appears that the woman in question was speaking about more than one assault. But you do have the husband, you do have the therapist, and as much as this was said, it wasnt said just out of convenience in the moment for now. So lets leave the analysis there and lets take it from that point right after the break. Asha, ken, thank you very much. It is big and it is breaking. As we speak, the Justice Department and the fbi are working with the u. S. Intelligence community to declassify information related the to the russia probe. Thats done on the president s orders. Thats why im keeping cuomos court in session. We have two great minds here. This story is not getting a lot of attention today because of kavanaugh, but it matters. Is this why a president should declassify information out of his own personal convenience . Next. Ordinary eggs . Not in this house. cause thats no ordinary family. Thats your family. Which is why you didnt grab just any cheese. You picked up new kraft expertly paired cheddar and swiss for eggs. Beat that kraft. Family greatly. Went to ancestry, i put in the names of my grandparents first. I got a leaf right away. A leaf is a hint that is connected to each person in your family tree. I learned that my ten times great grandmother is George Washingtons aunt. Within a few days i went from knowing almost nothing to holy crow, im related to george washington. This is my cousin george. Discover your story. Start searching for free now at ancestry. Com the a. Is stolen. Es. 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Sometimes the media all runs in one direction, but weve got to catch things when they matter and we have one tonight. President trump has ordered the declassification of several documents related to the russia investigation. It includes parts of the fisa applications on carter page and reports connected there, too. Cuomos court back in section. Asha rangappa and ken cuccinelli, full disclosure, i am in favor of all disclosure of classified information. If its not about National Security or us getting troops killed overseas or Something Like that, i want to know, because i dont trust anybody to tell me the truth, other than what i can discern with my own eyes and give it to the audience. Amen. So given that i like disclosure, why you disclose as a leader is different than why a journalist wants it disclosed as a member of the media. Asha, do you like this move . Why or why not . I dont like this move. And first to your first point, chris, about disclosure and transparency. I think thats absolutely essential in a democracy. Thats how we keep our government accountable. However, this is an Ongoing Investigation. It is important to understand that. Even though this particular fisa surveillance may be over, the sources and methods that were used to either obtain the fisa or what was uncovered during the fisa may be relevant to an Ongoing Investigation and there may be people who are legitimately at risk of life or death. So i think thats important to understand. Its one thing to do it 25 years later. Its another thing to do it right in the middle. Yeah. As far as the motivations, you know, i think that if this is being done for selfpreservation and not in the interest not truly in the public interest. And again, for National Security reasons i just mentioned, i dont think it is, not only do i think its not a good idea, i think that it can also add to this pattern of potential obstruction by the president. Well, look, youve got to believe that the president hasnt taken the time to do what what he could, right, which is get the actual details of whats in the fisa application. I never cease to be amazed, ken, that he would rather listen to fox that be pick up the phone and talk to people who have the actual answers within his intelligence community. But if thats why hes doing this, because he heard somewhere that theres stuff in there that will be good for his cause, is that the right reason to declassify information . Look. This is not ive litigated in the fisa court. This is not a normal fisa warrant. This was an attempt to use counterintelligence authority to do something, frankly, in the political arena. This was very abusive. And is it appropriate to have transparency here more than elsewhere. If you go all the way back to the 90s, there was this raging debate for that full decade in the Law Enforcement community about the wall between Counter Intelligence and criminal investigation. And how high it should be and whether it should come down and so forth. And then 9 11 happened. And we were supposed to trust that the elements put in place and the review by the higher ups and the fbi and doj would filter out these political potential uses of counterintelligence authority, which is very easy to get these warrants. Very easy. And that didnt happen here. And if this is a habit of the doj and fbi, on any sort of basis, bipartisan or otherwise, then it needs to be ended. And that isnt going to happen until you reveal these sorts of facts and the information and the American People, including congress, can pass judgment on them. Rangappa doesnt like i dont like any of this. Im sorry she doesnt like it. But she doesnt like because its donald trump. Well, hold on, lets hear why she doesnt like it i dont like it, ken ken, i heard your case what youre saying is wrong. Z ken, i heard your case. Whats your case . I dont like it because what youre saying is wrong. If you litigated in a fisa court, you would know these are not easy to get. They go through several layers soft approvals. Its like playing chutes and ladders. Second, youre mischaracterizing the wall. The wall is about not using a fisa to uncover criminal evidence to then open up a criminal investigation. There has been no criminal investigation oepened on carter page. In fact, that seems to be one of the allegations made that this was a bad fisa. That means that its actually working. So im not sure you understand what the wall is. The wall no, youre wrong. Youre wrong. What that was intended to prevent has actually happened. No, i actually teach this, thank you. That is what the wall those who cant teach. And lastly, there is a mechanism to review accusations of misconduct. That is the office of nrmt general. That would be one avenue. The other is that congress could review these documents in camera, which theyve already done. There are ways you dont need to spill it out to the public, which they dont really understand how to evaluate these things. And you know, this kind of misinformation from ken doesnt help either. Asha, youre a former fbi special agent, yes . Yes . Whoa, whoa, whoa misinformation you just said, those who could not teach. That was underneath you. I spoke over you as a penalty. Now you may continue. So, look, you dont think the American People can figure this out . I think they can. It doesnt help to have the mislabeled rhetoric firing around that happens, to use the last segment, chris example, i think, was quite correct, about the political problems of reviewing kavanaugh information. We have similar problems in this arena, but the problem we have those problem is because its done around an example related to trump. This fisa warrant, you focused on page, was it used for criminal purposes . Yes, indeed, it was. Page was an avenue into the trump campaign. And we still have a special counsel who was appointed with no criminal predicate. Didnt have to have one. Still, no named criminal predicate. That is contrary to doj authority, their regulations no, its not this was a regulatory appointment you are totally making this up, ken. Yes, wiit is. Yes, it is. You need to read the regulation. Send me the regulation and i will do a segment on it. Ken cuccinelli and asha rangappa, you are both worthy. Back to the senates hearing next monday for kavanaugh and his accuser. This was not going to happen. I have to tell you, you have to call it straight when you see it. President trump cleared the way for the gop to release their hold on having another phase of this. I dont think it was going to happen until he said, you know, youve got to hear both sides, which is right. But is this the right place to do it . My next guest says, no dog and pony show is needed. This is just a spectacle for the left to get the socalled hysteria machine revved up. 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High cholesterol and weight gain; high blood sugar, which can lead to coma or death decreased white blood cells, which can be fatal; dizziness upon standing; falls; seizures; impaired judgement; heat sensitivity; and trouble swallowing may occur. Youre more than just your bipolar i. Ask about vraylar. President trump is handling this kavanaugh allegation differently than previous claims against himself, or the people around him, and that is a good thing. Hes calling for process. Hes calling to let the sides, at least, be heard. Now, hes not calling for the fbi to look at them again. That would be the most helpful thing. But even what hes asking for right now, its not sitting well with his supporters. Case in point, amy kremer, cofounder of the group, women for trump. Welcome back to primetime. Thanks for having me, chris. Amy, i see inconsistency in your position. You say Sexual Assault is a serious allegation and shouldnt be used like this, by democrats as a political weapon. If its a serious allegation, you should take it seriously and let dr. Ford be heard. Fair point . Absolutely. Then, whats wrong with them doing this on monday . I dont think it needs to be done in public. I think it needs to be done behind closed doors. And we dont need a big spectacle. And thats exactly what its going to turn into. And you and i both know it. Look, i dont i feel i dont know that, but continue. Well, i mean, you said earlier that you thought it was probably going to get ugly, it is. I need to see it, because it will get ugly. Thats my point. Continue. Were never going to prove it or disprove it. It was 35 years ago, and probably more than anything, theyll walk out of there and nothing will have been proven or disproven. But thats not the bar. And ill tell you why. The thing is this isnt the court of law. Even there, you only know what you show, but theres a burden, were not going to have that burden here. Theres a different one. Advise and consent, transparency, those are the exigencies and the expectations of Public Office in this confirmation process. Now, we could have a whole discussion a different day about whether or not the confirmation process lives up to that. I would argue it does not. But you cant have this in closed door, because i wont know what happened. And it will be engineered for political advantage, this time, for your side. Next time, maybe for the other side. It must be transparent and open. We must see it and judge for ourselves. And judge those who would advise and consent thereafter. Fair point . No i disagree with you. I think this should have been handled weeks ago. Dianne feinstein sat on this for weeks. She could have taken this to judge kavanaugh, she could have taken it and i think she had a duty to take it to the other committee members. And she did not. The. The woman asked for anonymity, dr. Ford. What do you do with that . She could have been granted it and it could have been divulged to the committee members. They should have decided how to deal with it as a committee. When the democrats are accusing republicans of withholding all these documents, oh, theyre holding back all these documents from the bush years and so on. And they are. But theyre holding back one of the most Important Documents concerning this confirmation, and they sit on it for six or eight weeks . Thats unacceptable. Dianne feinstein is responsible for that. Theres absolutely no excuse. It is one thing to right. To keep our Identity Private and not go public with it. But theres no reason it should not have been divulged to that committee. No reason. A couple followups. One, why doesnt the president open it up to the fbi . Youll get your wish if its behind closed doors, and you get somebody to vet the information. Well, i dont think that you can say that he hasnt asked the fbi. We dont know that. He hasnt mentioned the fbi. And why cant the committee ask for the fbi . I mean well, why havent they . I dont know. Somebody should ask for the fbi to do it. Do you agree in. Yeah, i do think they should. So youre okay with the fbi vetting the information in. Absolutely i am. I have no problem with that. Good. And i believe theres not going to come up with anything. How do you know . Hes been through six fbi investigations. They went through six things. They never found her. Theyve been through six. Chris, at the end of the day, nothing is going to come of it. Were never going to prove it or disprove it. I get tired of congress its not just about this. Congress has these Committee Hearings all the time, and i mean its all for show. Its a dog and pony show so they can get their sound bites, and then nothing ever comes of it. I think its a waste of peoples taxpayer money, and its a waste of our time. Well, look, you got to go case by case. Some of the hearings are helpful. Some arent. I am a big critic of the confirmation pro cess. However, this is not just another item of grandstanding. You have a woman who came forward with a serious allegation. You say, well never know one way or the other. Well, that is not the standard of whether or not we try to review situations, is it, amy . If we didnt have complete confidence as to whether or not wed get an outcome, so we just didnt look, that would be a pretty lousy standard for the administration of justice, would it not . I think the committee needs to handle it inside the committee and then decide what to do with it. Otherwise, youre setting a very dangerous precedent here. Whats dangerous about lets hear all the sides and the witnesses and then decide . Let the committee hear it, and if its a credible, you know, accusation and they think theres something there, then bring it out to the public. Otherwise, why bring it forward . So the standard that you want for this womans allegation of Sexual Assault is a no, no, no. Different one than you want for the disclosure of the documents no, youre not going to put those words into my mouth. The thing about it is, is somebody is bringing forth an allegation 35 years ago with no corroborating evidence. There is corroborating evidence. Her therapist knows . I mean how and her husband. How do you know she didnt write him . We dont know that. We havent heard from the therapist. Im not questioning her credibility. She has a right to be heard. You just did. Kavanaugh has a right to be heard. Yes, and the witnesses that were there, the one witness that she says was there totally denies it. I mean her story isnt adding up. But the bottom line is let it be dealt with in the committee before you bring all this public. I mean i feel bad for her wether it is true or not true. Shes in a situation if its true, its horrible what happened to her. If its not true, its horrible shes being used this way by the democrats, bottom line. I have a problem. We are coming to a place in our society where all of a sudden you can claim Sexual Harassment against somebody, and it ruins their life, and theres no due process. And that is a very dangerous precedent for us to set. Its a slippery slope, chris. You would want due process if it was theres no question we want due process. Your problem is you are fighting due process in this situation. This is the best we can do. Its not going to make it in a criminal context. So the best we can do is for the rest of us to hear it and make our own judgment. If you care about due process or th so that somebody is not unfairly accused or victimized, then you want transparency and this is the best way to get it. The committee has decided to have a public hearing. Yes. And im glad. You know, i think its interesting that they have because the democrats refuse to meet with him. How many of them refuse to meet with him. They refused to get on a call with him today. Now theyre refusing to be part of the hearing. All they want is a spectacle because they want to gin up the hysteria machine, because they want to make this a political issue for midterms and because they want to derail this confirmation process. It is a political issue inherently, not what happened to dr. Ford or did not happen, but the selection of a judge. Its all about politics. Its all about power, and not enough about policy and candor. But, again, that is a conversation for another day. Amy cremor, thank you for making your case on prime time. Thank you. All right. Now, were about to witness history again. 27 years later, anita hill, you remember that . Clarence thomas. Its going to be uncomfortable. But americans, i disagree with what amy just said. You deserve to know. The Closing Argument of how we have to think about this because were not thinking about it this way. Next. 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Your insurance rates skyrocket you could fix it with a pen. How about using that pen to sign up for new insurance instead . For drivers with accident forgiveness, Liberty Mutual wont raise their rates because of their first accident. Switch and you could save 782 on home and auto insurance. Call for a free quote today. Liberty mutual insurance. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. It is easy to say if judge kavanaugh attacked dr. Ford and is now lying about it, then he cannot be on the Supreme Court. The problem is it will be very difficult to establish those preconditions to know that he did it and that he is therefore lying under oath right now. So how do we process this . My argument is this. The larger problem is how were trying to figure it out. Were dealing with the most sensitive and complex kind of allegation, something that requires understanding and openness and a willingness to accept what you dont like. Now, were doing that in a confirmation process with senators that is about none of those things i just mentioned. I would argue it is a perversion of due process, not due process in fact. It is about nondisclosure. It is about