To canonize john xxiii and john paul xxii. Pope benedict xvi is in attendance, sitting there along with some 150 cardinals, 1,000 bishops and 24 world leaders. In addition to that, a sea of people youll see on these shots gathered in and around st. Peters square. In fact, vatican Officials Say they can expect up to a Million People to arrive there today. And a live look there. As you can see, pope francis leading this procession as it just got under way just a few minutes ago. But again, a historic day as the First Time Ever that we are seeing two popes becoming saints in one day. We have our team overlooking the square youre seeing now. Our vatican correspondent, Delia Gallagher, and our senior vatican analyst, john allen, join us now. A pleasure to see you both. Lets begin with just the excitement and unusual nature of a ceremony like today. Weve seen two popes there now and, of course, two late popes are being turned into saints. This is a day of rock stars for catholics, would you guys say . Reporter yeah, well, you know, the truth of it is that when you cover the koth lick chur Catholic Church, you dont usually have the opportunity to say unprecedented. This is after all an institution with 2,000 years of history, but this is really a first, the first time two popes have been declared saints in the saint ceremony and the first time the two living popes have taken part in a canonization ceremony, so delia, we certainly are watching history being made along with a million of our closest friends. Reporter yes, ill say. Plenty of people have come from all over the world, camped out all night to be here for this event. Its also a special event because were seeing pope emeritus, benedict, with pope francis. A lot of people said, how is that going to work when the pope emeritus resigned last year, how is pope francis going to handle this, what are we going to do with the two popes, one considered more conservative, one considered more liberal . And i think its worth pointing out, actually, that benedict did not project himself into this event. Actually, he promised, youll remember, when he resigned, to remain hidden from the world, and he had been true to his word. Its actually been pope francis who encouraged him to get out more often. Pope francis gave an interview saying, hey, benedict is not in a museum, i want him to play a role, so hes here at the invitation of pope francis. Yeah, and i think thats nice for catholics to see as well, that this resignation, which was such a surprise, has been able to work out in some way well, and lets make the point, today is all about unity. The contrast isnt just francis and benedict. You know, in the catholic street, often theres also a contrast between these new saints, john xxiii and john paul xxii. Conventionally, john xxiii on the left, john paul a hero on the right. I think they were put together as a call to unity. In a sense, were seeing a festival of unity in rome today. A mirror reflection between the two living popes and the two popes that will be sainted. Amara, earl . John and delia, were using the words over and over unprecedented and historic. I want to talk to you both about aspects of both canonizations and how they are breaking away from tradition. John, you mentioned that the message is unity, but before we develop more into that, can you give us a sense of what were going to see from here on out . What will we see in this canonization ceremony thats expected to last about 10 to 20 minutes . Thats right. Well, what will happen is that the vatican official who is in charge of both of the sainthood causes, an italian by the name of angelo amato, three times he will present a formal request to pope francis to declare these two men as saints. And hes doing so kind of in the name of the whole church. Thats the idea. Yeah. And then francis, of course, will say yes, and the culminating moment, we expect well. Although he is a pope of surprises. I mean, all bets are off, but were assuming hes going to accept the request, and then he will read the formal latin formula of canonization in which he installs john xxiii and john paul ii as saints of the Catholic Church and instricribe their names into the roman collection of saints and from that moment, they will be saints. Then what will happen is we will shift to what is basically the structurer of the standard catholic mass, as its celebrated all around the world, with a twist, delia, that this is a special mass, because this is actually the Catholic Churchs divine mercy sunday. Feast put on the calendar by john paul ii. Thats right. And also, of course, mercy being the motto of pope francis. So, that is certainly one of the overriding themes of today, the mercy of god, regardless of your sins. Amara, earl . And were continuing to watch this canonization ceremony get under way. On the left of your screen, youre seeing live pictures out of vatican city with pope francis. On the right, live pictures out of poland, many places in poland watching the canonization of Pope John Paul ii, soon to become a saint. Many people watching this from around the world, in fact, delia and john allen are there watching at vatican city and im here watching. Were approaching the point where those three requests will be made by Cardinal Amato. What do we know about the relics, which are an important part of this ceremony, the significance and how it will differ for both . And lets take a moment as we watch Pope Emeritus Benedict greet the pope there. You mentioned how it was unclear how the two living popes would get along. At the moment, it appears they have a warm relationship. Reporter yes. Yes, absolutely, and one of the few times that weve been able to see them both together on the same stage. But as you were saying, earl, after the Cardinal Amato, who is the head of the congregation for saints, petitions the pope three times to canonize john 23 and john paul ii, relics of both saints will be brought up to the altar. The relic of john paul xxiii is a piece of his skin from when they removed him from the crypt under st. Peters up to the basilica and the relic of john paul ii is his blood in a vial. The relic for john xxiii will be brought up by members of his family, and the relic for john paul ii we expect to be brought up by the women who received miracles because of his intercession. And john, you were mentioning just a few moments ago that there is also a message of unity that pope francis is bringing with this canonization ceremony, and i find it interesting that two popes with two very different styles are being canonized today. Pope john paul ii, who was a conservative, and john xxiii, who was seen more as a reformer. What kind of message is pope francis bringing by canonizing these two popes on the same day . Reporter well, first of all, amara, my suspicion would be that francis would say the situation is more complex than just saying john paul is a conservative and john xxiii was a liberal. I suspect he would argue that these two popes had much more in common, actually, than the things that separated them. But at the same time, amara, one thing you dare never forget about francis is that beneath that humble, simple exterior lies the mind of a very sophisticated jesuit politician. And i think his fear, honestly, was that if you canonize one of these two men individually, that it could be seen in the street as a kind of victory lap for one side or another in the churchs internal debates. Unity built upon a foundation of mercy is the core value for pope francis, and so, i think by putting these two new pope saints together, hes basically inviting left and right to stop fighting with one another and to come together. Now, this is the key moment of the canonization. Lets listen in now as pope francis responds to the questions from Cardinal Amato asking for the two popes, john paul ii and john xxiii to become saints. Lets listen in. [ speaking Foreign Language ] translator church more earnestly beseeches your holiness to enroll these, your children, among the saints. Let us then invoke the holy spirit, the giver of life, that he may enlighten our minds and that christ, our lord, may not permit his church to err in a matter of such importance. And in fact, we take those words literally, invoking the holy spirit through this beautiful hymn. There was a question from one of our viewers, the images are unveiled already. Shouldnt there be an unveiling . And that unveiling takes place at the end [ inaudible ] sings this beautiful and these wonderful images, radiant images of these two soontobe saints of the Catholic Church. We now hear the third petiti petition, which will conclude the series requesting the canonization of these two men. Translator most holy father, holy church, trusting in the lords promise to send upon her the spirit of truth, support every age keeps the supreme magesteria immune from error, beseech your holiness to enroll these elect among the saints. Now the solemn moment in which the holy father pronounces the formula of canonization. Translator for the honor of the blessed trinity, the exaltation of the catholic faith, and the increase of the Christian Life by the authority of our Lord Jesus Christ and of the holy apostles, peter and paul and our own, after due deliberation and frequent prayer for divine assistance, and having sought the counsel of many of our brother bishops, we declare and define blessed john xxiii and john paul ii be saints and enroll them among the saints, decreeing that they are to be venerating as such by the whole church. In the name of the father and of the son and of the holy spirit. Pronouncing formula. Translator santee adeso, saints. If youre just joining us here on cnn, youve watched now as pope francis officially canonizes pope john ii and john i should say john xxiii and john paul ii. Right now, were seeing the commencement of the next phase of this ceremony, the presentation of relics, which are connected to the miracles that these popes had to prove they committed or conducted during their lifetime a very important part of the ceremony, but certainly something thats unprecedented in the Catholic Church. Youre seeing Pope Emeritus Benedict there and pope francis at the same time paying homage and honoring two iconic leaders of the Catholic Church, really, amara. Yeah, and just moments ago, we heard pope francis declare blessed popes john paul ii and john xxiii as saints. Right now youre watching the presentation of the relics as it is happening there in st. Peters square. I want to bring in john allen and Delia Gallagher. And john, if you can explain to us what we are seeing and the significance of these acts. Reporter well, these are relics of the two new saints. Specifically, its a vial of the blood of Pope John Paul ii, and a piece of the skin of pope john xxiii. Its important to say that relics of saints have always played an incredibly vital role in catholic spirituality and in devotion to the saints. I mean, back in the middle ages, villages used to go to war over who would control the relics of saints. And i think what they signify for catholics is that saints were flesh and blood human beings. These werent angels or particles of divinity, they were human beings, warts and all, and yet, despite their failures or despite their limits, they sort of overcame that and became models of what it means to live a holy life. So, that ability to reach out and touch the physical presence of the saint has always been kind of the motor fuel of catholic devotion to these figures. And theres kind of a hierarchy as well of relics, because there can be secondary relics. These are obviously the most important because they pertain to the actual body of the people. But then there are relics such as clothing, for example. John paul iis private secretary, after the pope died, distributed some of his vestments and things that he had touched, which becomes secondary relics then. And we expect that after the mass is concluded here today, and once st. Peters basilica is reopened, people are going to line up in order to be able to see those relics, to pray before them, to again, have that sort of physical, live wire connection. Yes. To these two figures who have played such an extraordinarily central role in the lives of catholics throughout the second half of the 20th century. Theyll also be able to line up and pray at the tombs of both of these popes. That will be open all day. It is unclear whether pope francis himself will go, but certainly, it is open to many of the people who have come and slept out overnight in order to be at this ceremony. You know, and as hundreds of thousands of pilgrims are gathered there as well to witness this historic and unprecedented event, weve also been taking live pictures out of krakow, poland, poland being the native country of john paul ii. And delia, if you can help us understand the poignant moment for the people there in poland as they watched john paul ii becoming a saint. Well, let me tell you, amara, i have been very impressed by the polish people who have come here to rome. Theyre all down behind me, and ive been talking to them since last night, because theyve got their sleeping bags and chairs and water and a bit of bread. And a group last night of marathon runners arrived to big cheers. They had run from poland to rome. So, that gives you an idea of the devotion of pols for their saint. That is quite remarkable. And as we take a live look right now at the presentation of the relics, again, a historic and unprecedented event we are watching amara, this is mmhmm . Go ahead, delia. And that is flora f. Diaz, the woman we were talking about before, who received the miracle, according to the vatican, from the intercession of john paul ii there. You can see the vial of blood and the piece of skin of john xxiii. Those are the two official relics of these two pope saints. Both of those relics, it might be worth saying, actually date from the years in which these two popes were batified, which is the final stage before sainthood. So, in the case of john xxiii, that was a piece of skin removed from the body and brought up in 2000 for his beatification. John paul ii, of course, was beatified just two years ago, in 2011. I think you two could also, as we watch this event unfold, the presentation of relics there at vatican city, talk to us about what you think the strategy was to put these canonizations together today and make these popes saints in a single ceremony. Well, i think weve already talked about why they put them together. I think the logic was, rather than providing individual canonizations for two figures who are sometimes associated with being two different positions in Catholic Life john xxiii more liberal, john paul ii more conservative i think francis clearly wanted to put them together as an invitation to unity in the church. Now, why today, on the other hand, has to do with the fact that the first sunday after easter is on the catholic calendar since the years of john paul ii divine mercy sunday, delia. And thats why with this theme of pope francis for mercy and the divine mercy feast day that john paul ii instituted because of his devotion to polish saint, visionary, who had a vision of jesus, saying the world will come to peace through my mercy, and thats an important theme also for pope francis. You know, we emphasize a lot this liberal conservative between john xxiii and john paul ii. Of course, its not so simple as that. And one of the things they have in common is they were both great friends of the jewish people. And in fact, one of the delegations, the largest delegation of religious representatives here today are representatives of the jewish religion. John xxiii in the Second Vatican Council, that important document which revolutionized the Catholic Churchs thinking towards the jews, and of course, john paul ii, who was the first pope to enter a synagogue and establish diplomatic relations with the holy see and israel in 1994. In fact, its worth saying that even before he was elected to the papacy, john xxiii, when he was a vatican diplomat in bulgaria and in greece and in turkey, in the early years of the second world war, was very active in supporting the jewish underground, helping people get residency papers to get out of harms way, so much so that there are actually a number of jewish leaders around the world who have proposed that john xxiii ought to be named righteous among the nations. Thats the designation that the Holocaust Memorial gives for nonscrews who helped jews. So, clearly not just for catholics, but for people of all religions. Amara, earl . Lets listen in as the canonization ceremony continues. Literally thanking the holy father for pronouncing that canonization. The formula, the two embrace. And the gloria will be following. John and delia, we want to bring you back in now. After this canonization ceremony concludes, there will be a regular mass. What can we expect from the popes homily . Well, it will be as regular a mass as you can have, when youve got more than a Million People in the streets. Youve got an estimated 150 cardinals, 1,000 bishops, 6,000 priests. Not the kind of thing that happens in the typical parish every sunday, but the structure will be the same. And listen, we would imagine that pope francis will devote his homily thats the brief talk he will give after the readings from the bible hell devote it largely, we would imagine, to kind of an appreciation of these two giants of 20thcentury Catholic Life, john xxiii and john paul ii. Its worth saying, both of those popes, in addition to having an impact on the church and the world, also had an impact on jorge mario bore goal who is now the pope. John paul ii was the pope who made him a bishop and an archbishop, then a cardinal and put him in a position to eventually become pontiff himself. Yeah, really, if it werent for john paul ii, Cardinal Bergoglio or father bergoglio may not have taken the steps he needed, because he was in exile by the jesuits when the pope actually brought him out and made him an auxiliary bishop there in buenos aires. So, in some respects, pope francis owes quite a great deal to john paul ii. He sure does. Im sure the other talking point in the homily is going to be the significance of divine mercy sunday. And as weve talked about before, the idea of mercy is kind of a scarlet thread that connects these three popes. I mean, obviously, a feast near and dear to john paul ii, francis in many ways is the pope of mercy, but we shouldnt leave john xxiii out of the picture. Remember the famous opening speech he made at the beginning session of the Second Vatican Council in 1962, where he used that celebrated phrase, that it is time for the church to dispense the medicine of mercy. So, mercy is a cornerstone for each of these three men. Oh, absolutely. And of course, you know, i think that john xxiii was one of those popes who had that simple touch. He was able to speak to the people, something we see with pope francis as well, you know. And on the opening day of vatican two, there are beautiful pictures of the candlelight procession in the evening and all the people gathered in the square. And john paul ii was at the window, and they were calling to him to speak to them, and he did come to the window and he said, when you go home tonight, caress your children and tell them its the caress of the pope. So, he also had that personal touch that i think pope francis emlate and has as well. I spoke earlier, john xxiii was really the first pope of the tv age. I mean, this was tvs golden age in the late 50s and early 60s 60s, and he was the first pope who arrived in peoples living rooms around the world via the tv screen. And thats another connection between these three men, that they have all known how to play that instrument in a way that makes the papacy accessible and immediately relevant. Yeah, and part of that is natural, its just their character, isnt it . But part of it is that, you know, they receive the kind of enthusiasm from the crowd. I saw that with john paul ii many times, that he needed to be out with the people and needed to receive that kind of oh, absolutely. In fact, i remember you and i talking at one stage that if you really wanted to hasten john pauls demise, strap him into a desk and refuse to let him get out, because you and i covered papal trips towards the end of his papacy, and we all worried going in about how frail and weak and tired he seemed, and time after time, what we saw is that he was stronger by the end of the trip than he was at the beginning because he drew energy from the people. And i think Something Like that is what pope francis is doing as well, by not wanting to live in the papal palace, by wanting to live with neighbors, by wanting to get out as much as possible. Lets remember that john xxiii was one of the first to go into the hospitals, to go to prisons. Thats something that pope francis emulates as well, isnt it . Yeah, francis says over and over, he wants the church to get out of the sacristy, which is the area where priests get dressed before mass. He wants them to get out of the sacristy and into the streets. These are all three popes of the streets in the sense that, you know, they ended the kind of splendid isolation of the papacy. Remember famously in the 19th century, the popes declared themselves prisoners of the vatican. Well, these guys were not anybodys prisoners. John xxiii, john paul ii and francis all are men who very much know how to connect with ordinary people, which is why, of course, why we see the kind of massive turnout were wig in the streets of rome here today. Yes. And well just take a look now at mass, as we begin the formal part of the mass, which is in latin, with the gospel in latin and greek. Its from the gospel of john. It has to do with the doubting thomas, the famous story yeah, well, john paul ii talked about the church needing to breathe with both lungs, which he meant the western and eastern traditions, latin and greek traditions. So, it, too, therefore, is a symbol of unity and universality. Yes. And in the gospel of t, doubtin thomas put his hand on jesuss wound so he wouldnt bleed, so it has to do with believing in miracles in some sense. And well also hear readings from the acts of apostles. Catholics believe that their bishops, and certainly their popes, are successors of those early apostles that christ called to lead the church. We talk about apostolic succession, this kind of unbroken chain over 2,000 years of which all three of these popes, john xxiii, john paul ii, now pope francis, participate in that succession of tapostles. Delia gallagher and john allen know exactly what theyre talking about, our vatican experts just outside of vatican city, great context and analysis as we watch the ending of the canonization of two popes becoming saints and now mass has just begun there in vatican square. 150 cardinals and 1,500 bishops, a couple thousand priests in addition to the estimated Million People who have gathered there in vatican city to be a part of todays event. In fact, we have our ben wedeman deployed amongst the crowd there in st. Peters square. Hes joining us over the phone. Ben, im not sure how well you can hear me. Give us a sense of the atmosphere where you are, how people are feeling. Reporter the atmospheres very solemn. I havent seen the square packed like this since the election of pope francis earlier last year. What we have here in st. Peters square are people from, it seems almost everywhere on earth. A very strong polish contingent. And certainly, when the moment came when pope francis announced that john paul ii and john xxiii were now officially saints, i did see several people quietly weeping as they took it in, took in that news. But certainly, its a very solemn atmosphere. Theyre watching the proceedings. Oftentimes when pope francis comes out to speak, theres soft applause from the crowd. Also, there was applause when they saw Pope Benedict xvi, Pope Emeritus Benedict xvi as well, but as i said, the place is jam packed. Not only st. Peters square, but all the roads leading up to the square as well, full of people who have been here since before sunrise this morning. Okay, ben wedeman there live for us in the thick of it all with the crowds. And as he was reporting, very emotional moment for many of the faithful who have traveled here to witness this historic double canonization of saints on just one day. Just a few moments ago, as this canonization ceremony was taking place, we also saw the presentation of the relics, one of which was presented by a woman who received the miracle of Saint John Paul ii, flora beth from costa rica. She says she was cured of an aneurism after she prayed to john paul ii to intercede in her behalf with god, and she was cured. Again, a very poignant and unprecedented moment here. We also heard from delia. Speaking to the people in the crowd, she met some marathon runners from poland who ran to st. Peters square in vatican city to witness this historical moment. I thought that was absolutely incredible. It is quite incredible, that theyre that committed to be here on this day. So, as youd imagine, this is a very emotional and solemn time as people there gather to honor two rock star popes, Pope John Paul ii and john xxiii. And delia telling us that the message here, if theres one overarching theme, is one of mercy. Right. That pope francis seems to be showing and demonstrating with all of these acts, even with acts that hes taken during this past year, his first as pope. Whether its washing peoples feet, calling nuns to see how they are. He spoke with a woman, called her in argentina last week, a woman married to a divorced man, saying you can still be a part of the church, even though it goes against some of the rules. But really, his message seems to be with this recognizing the two pillars of the Catholic Church together. And then also being alongside Pope Emeritus Benedict and showing their continual warm relationship seems to be underscoring that message of mercy and togetherness. Pope francis also breaking with tradition with this canonization ceremony as well. And as youd imagine, people on social media are tweeting their favorite quotes from the popes being made saints today. I want to show you some of those. Twitter using peace and joy, quoting john paul ii. An excuse is worse and more terrible than a lie, for an excuse is a lie guarded. Another twitter user quoted john xxiii we must unite, not divide, for we are all children of one true god. And as we heard from john allen, another theme today is the message of unity. Now, mark hart has this to say about the two popes. Two courageous souls who answered the spirits call to breathe life into cultures of death. It truly is cause for celebration. Now, the unprecedented double canonization brings together the three most popular leaders of the Catholic Church of the past century. Thats right. Lets bring back in our analyst there inside vatican city, Delia Gallagher and john allen standing by for us, watching all of this. Our ben wedeman is in the crowd. He didnt pull the lucky card you pulled and get the comfy seats, but hes in among the crowd saying its solemn, a number of people from poland hes noticing as well. And this is a remarkable day for the people of poland. John, delia . They may be unable we can hear you now. Okay. Were just listening to the i can hear you now, earl, yes. And were just listening to the beginning of the gospel, which is being sung in latin and greek. Its from the gospel of john. It has to do with the doubting thomas, when jesus appears to his apostles and one of them, thomas, doesnt believe its him. And he says put your hand in my wounds. And this goes back to that theme of mercy and of miracles. John . And also having to do we were talking earlier about the relics and the importance of physical contact. The story of thomas is one who wanted physical contact. Yes. In this case with christ to make sure this was really him. And i think it does Say Something about the need even though faith in some ways is a spiritual and atheerl notion, there is something in the catholic mind that once that physical, tangible reality and connection to really bring it home. Yeah, and i think that was also part of john paul iis attraction, that he had a very physical presence. Certainly you felt that when you were in his presence, but there was always a mystical side to john paul ii, i thought, you know . He was a poet and a writer, and i think a kind of mystic, i. E. , a poet who lived in a religious context. And something about that he himself really believed thats the thing, i think john paul ii projected a profound, deep, sincere faith that was sort of contagious. And you are right about the mystical dimension of john paul ii. Youll remember, of course, that on may 13th, 1981, he was shot in st. Peters square by a turkish gunman, which also happened to be the Catholic Churchs feast of our lady. He was convinced that the virgin mary, our lady of fatima kept him alive that day. And on the oneyear anniversary of that event, he went to the shrine of fatima and placed the bullet that doctors had taken out of his rib cage, placed it into the crown of the statue of the virgin to thank her for his intercession. And people saw the depth of his own faith, and i think thats part of why so many catholics would think of him as a role model in holiness. And talking about the importance of today, which as you mentioned, is a feast day that john paul ii himself instituted the feast of divine mercy, well, that whole thing started because of a vision of a polish nun who the vatican banned in the 1960s, her writing and her visions. And it was carol wytila as archbishop of krakow, who incristed with the vatican that he wanted them to reconsider her visions and once he became pope, she became a saint and he instituted feast day. The ultimate wisdom that its good to be pope. But sainthood procedure sometimes also are exercises in rehabilitation. Lets remember, the famed itali italian, probably the most beloved saint in the 20th century in this country was investigated 20some times by his own religious order and by the vatican and by his own bishop, and yet, of course, was vindicated when he was made a saint. So, the point is that, you know, during someones life, they may be a controversial figure, but until the final word is spoken, the jury is still out. Point also being, the vatican can also be skeptical when they want to. Exactly right. Earl, amara . Its great listening to you both, delia and john, giving great insight into the specifics of the significance of today and what really the message the church is trying to send out, but lets talk about some of the challenges facing the church, not least among them, of course, these allegations of sexual abuse, which have really dotted the church for the past few years. A u. N. Panel issuing a report blaming the church for protecting those accused of abuse. Whats your take on how pope francis has handled this very difficult and sensitive issue . Well, clearly, the child sex abuse scandals in catholicism had been one of the most important streams of criticism, particularly about the canonization of john paul ii. Critics of john paul will argue that he allowed the scandals to metastasized. A lot will say it was as his health was deteriorating and perhaps it was unrealistic to expect a more energetic response. In any event, you asked how pope francis has responded. He created the Pontifical Commission for the protection of minors, intended to lead the charge for the Catholic Church in terms of the cleanup from the sex abuse scandals. One of the members of that commission is Cardinal Sean omalley of boston, the american who would be seen as a real reformer on the sex abuse front. Francis also named an irish victim of clerical abuse, a woman by the name of mari collins, who has been a stern critic of the church. And so, its interesting that francis wanted to bring her into the fold and make her part of the conversation. Actually, of the eight members of the commission, four of them are women, and hes given this commission his clearest support. So, its going to be very interesting to see how it plays out. But clearly, this is a pope who is committed to continuing the reform effort. So, clearly, the canonization of john paul ii has not been without controversy. He leaves behind a complicated legacy, if you will. So, what does it mean to be a saint then . Well, amara, thats something that a lot of people ask. You know, does it mean you have to be perfect . Of course, it doesnt mean youve led a perfect life. The Catholic Church doesnt believe anybodys perfect. Theres original sin and many sins after the original one. So, its not a question of a perfect life for the Catholic Church, its a question of a virtuous life and a heroically virtuous life, as they put it. And in particular with regard to popes, they say its not a judgment on the entire papacy and on the decisions made during that papacy, which could have been for better or for worse, but it is a judgment on the pope himself and the example of Christian Life, which he set for the rest of the world. Yeah, thats right, delia. What vatican officials will always say is that were canonizing a pope, not canonizing a papacy, and they would be the first to acknowledge that, you know, popes have to make all kinds of judgment calls and policy decisions and personnel appointments that dont involve their infallibility. Youre not obliged to believe that they do all of that perfectly. The point about a canonization is that despite whatever failures and judgment, whatever policy mistakes may have been made and despite their own personal human limits, these were people who strove to live the holy life and who inspired others to do the same. Now, if the test is the capacity to inspire others, i would say that the crowd were seeing here today is probably one good piece of evidence that john xxiii and john paul ii passed the test. And of course, the official definition of a saint is somebody whos in heaven, who enjoys a beatific vision, who sees face to face with god. Remember in the sistine chapel, michelangelo depicted that creation of adam and god looking at each other. Thats the idea, that once you die, and if you are in heaven, eventually you will enjoy this beatific vision, and that is the reason why someone can pray to them for their intercession, because its not the saint that does the miracle, according to the Catholic Church, its god that does the miracle through the intercession of the saint. Amara . Thats a good point. Being a saint does not mean that you are perfect or a reflection of your papacy. I want to ask this, because we have seen Pope Emeritus Benedict xvi there in the crowd for this historic ceremony, and it was Pope Benedict xvi who actually fasttracked john paul iis canonization. Tell us more about that and why did he do that . Well, i mean, look, in theory, sainthood is supposed to be the most democratic process in the Catholic Church. It is supposed to begin with what is traditionally a grassroots, popular conviction that a particular figure lived a holy life and officialdom only comes in sort of after the fact to ratify that grassroots verdict. Sometimes, to be honest, its a little hard to find that grassroots devotion, but with john paul ii, theres no question about it. I mean, we remember nine years ago being in this space and listening to those vast crowds thunder over and over again santo subito, meaning sainthood now. So, in a sense, you know, the people had spoken, and i think benedict xvi waived the fiveyear waiting period in response to that. The other point worth remembering is that in the conclave nine years ago that elected benedict to the papacy, the cardinals before the vote had circulated a petition among themselves asking that whoever would be elected pope would waive the waiting period for john paul ii and move forward immediately to sainthood. So, in that sense, benedict was also performing a collegial act, meaning he was respecting the wishes of his fellow parties. I think benedict had no choice. I think he wanted to do it anyway, but certainly, with the response from the people and from the cardinals, he was really doing what everyone just expected him to do. Nonetheless, the process still took nine years of well, thats the comedy of this. We experts spend time talking about the fasttrack process . You ask the typical person in the street today, their question will be, why did it take this long . Well, theyve got to go through everything john paul ever wrote. I mean, imagine that. And talk to all the heads of state that he met, talk to his neighbors, talk to everybody he knew. They go through quite a number of interviews of people to see if there was anything that might have been contrary to him setting a christian example. Yeah, thats right. There is a complicated procedure to declare someone a saint. You dont just get out of bed in the morning and do it. You know, it begins, as you say, with collecting testimony. And then, of course, typically, we get into the phase of waiting for miracles. Church law normally requires one miracle for beatification and one for canonization, although in this case, of course, once again illustrating that its good to be pope, pope francis decided that with john xxiii, since he didnt have any doubt the guy is a saint and is in heaven enjoying the beatific vision with god, he waived that requirement for a second miracle in order to make it possible that you could stage this sort of double play canonization ceremony here today, bringing john xxiii and john paul ii together. And on that note, were talking about breaking away from tradition in terms of this canonization ceremony. And john xxiii had one miracle, and i understand that youre supposed to have two miracles to become a saint. So, why was this requirement waived, and what kind of precedent, i guess, does it set . Well, i think, amara, part of the reason the requirement was waived is because they asked pope francis to do it. You know, Pope John Xxiiis been waiting since 1966 for his canonization, so that wasnt any kind of a fast track for him. And the people that were in charge of his cause said its the 50th anniversary of vatican, its the anniversary of the death of pope john xxiii, would it be the time to do this . And of course, the pope has great admiration for him for a number of reasons and i think he had no reservations with putting john xxiii together with john paul ii. John xxiii opened the vatican council. John paul ii was one of the last with benedict xvi to participate in that council. So, also a kind of bridge and a historic moment for the church of vatican ii. Were kind of at the end of an era with Pope Emeritus Benedict, because he was one of the last ones to have attended that council. Yeah, although on the subject of miracles, its probably also important to say that pope francis has also set aside the miracle requirement in a couple of cases of members of his own jesuit order that he has recently declared saints. You know, basically, i think reading between the lines, i think what you see in pope francis is that in what he would consider not that he would use this language, but what he would see as slam dunk cases that is, cases in which someones personal sanctity is just blindingly obvious, that he does not intend to be hobbled by necessarily waiting for the formal process to reach conclusion, if he thinks that there are particularly good pastoral reasons for going ahead. Absolutely. Weve seen it before with pope francis, that when it comes to the rules, hes willing to break the rules if that means that it will help people, encourage people, will give out his message. Hes willing in some circumstances to look past some of the rules. Delia gallagher there and john allen, our vatican experts just outside vatican city, giving us some great analysis. Amara walker and myself, errol barnett, here at cnn center bringing you live pictures from the vatican as two popes become saints. At this moment, we understand that some masses has gotten under way. Theyre concluding the chanting in latin and greek, and next, we understand the popes homily will begin. As soon as we see that unfold, well bring it to you live. Ben wedeman is there in vatican city amongst the crowds. He noted many people from poland making a long journey there, some even marathon runners, ran from poland to be a part of todays unprecedented occasion. These live pictures youre seeing now coming to us from krakow. And if we can bring back in delia and john, because i want to talk about pope francis and his new style. The vatican is not an institution that changes quickly. How would you describe Pope Franciss approach to bringing some form of change . We mentioned the eightperson panel to look into allegations of sexual abuse, for example. Well, you know, we do typically say around here that the vatican thinks in centuries. The working motto tends to be talk to me on wednesday and ill get back to you in 300 years. You know, obviously, francis has a somewhat more abbreviated sense of how long it should take to get things done. But actually, you know, each one of the three popes that were sort of celebrating here today that is, john xxiii and john paul ii, who are being made saints, and francis, who is leading the ceremony, all of them in some ways were revolutionaries. John xxiii took this very stuffy, formal, you know, aloof, kind of isolated institution, and heres this frumpy, rolypoly son of italian share croppers who becomes the worlds favorite uncle, you know, john paul ii. Popes, the idea of being pope used to be that the world came to you. I mean, heres a pope who took 104 trips to 129 countries, seen in the flesh by more people than any other figure in the history of the planet. And pope francis is certainly a maverick in his own way, but he is hardly, delia, the first pope to break the mold. No. I think hes quite a radical. I mean, from the very moment he chose his name, we should have all been alerted to the agenda. Nobody had ever chosen francis as a pope before. And after one of the most radical saints in the Catholic Church. I mean, st. Francis had a comfortable life in aziza and left it to walk barefoot and talk to the birds. This is a hugely radical saint for poverty. So, really, the whole agenda of francis was kind of set when he chose his name. And not only was it radical, it was gutsy, because the truth of it is, given and youre absolutely right, how iconic a name francis is in the catholic imagination. It evokes humility and simplicity, a love of the poor, a closeness to the people, you know, spurning ostentation and all of that. And if you are not prepared to walk that talk, then taking that name is a huge roll of the dice. Yes. I mean, it was a whole program of governance in a word, but what weve seen from francis over the first year is hes walking the talk. Hes walking the talk, and i think hes very radical in spirit. Now, does that translate into radicalness in change in church teaching, for example, or in the way the church is organized or administered . And thats a question that i think is still outstanding, but we see that he tries to walk, i think, a fine line between those people in the church who would like to be more traditional, stay with the more conservative side, and also embracing a more liberal outlook, certainly a more pastoral outlook. Sure. Although we certainly see from a pope, that one area where you can take it to the bank he wants change is in governance, particularly in the vatican. He wants the church to be more modern, transparent, more accountable in the way it does business. You and i both know, he just created a brand new, kind of ministry for finance here, trying to get the vaticans financial house in order, because it has been rocked by scandals at the vatican bank and so on. He put a tough as nails australian cardinal by the name of Cardinal George fell in charge of it, and that certainly rocked the boat around here, because this is a significant departure from the way business has been done in the past. I mean, there is no way to threaten the old guard more than taking away the power of the purse. Yes. And that is, in effect, what francis has done. So, he clearly at that level is a change agent. And i do get the sense, john, that everybody is sort of on edge waiting to see what hes going to do next. I mean, from cardinals on up to catholics you and i both know vatican officials who get out of bed in the morning, you know, in sort of a cold sweat, wondering what the new earthquake is going to be thats going to go off today. So, this is clearly a pope that is shaking things up. And a pope who is very popular. And john, i heard you describe this event to be a Catholic Mardi Gras on steroids when it comes to the crowds and excitement. So, its clearly evident that these are two very beloved and wildly popular popes youre talking about, not to mention pope francis himself. Youre definitely right. I mean, youve got the two superstar popes of the second half of the 20th century being canonized by the superstar pope of the early 21st century. I mean, listen, if it were just john xxiii here today, we would probably have close to a million screaming italians. If it were just john paul ii, we would have the same number of screaming pols. Pope francis himself is drawing crowds three or four times larger than were accustomed to. So, you put all three of these magnets for humanity together, i mean, this is a remarkable thing were seeing here today. Yeah, i think its no coincidence that all three were time magazines men of the year. They all have that personal touch. And of course, john xxiii was the first, i think also because he came after pius xii, the very sternlike, aristocratic regal sort of pope. Then as we said before, here comes this rolypoly john xxiii, and nobody really knew what he was up to, what he was going to be about, much the same way as john paul ii. When he came out on the balcony, nobody really knew who he was. Jokingly, sometimes say that in italy, the holy trinity really is not father, son and holy spirit. In italy, its the virgin mary, padre pew and john xxiii. Yes. Because every restaurant, every taxicab, every private home in this country still has that picture of john xxiii. They called him ill papa bueno, the good pope or good pope john. Hes still very much part of the living memory of this place. Yeah. He was the first one to really understand, i think, how to communicate in that way with the people. And certainly, that was part of his appeal. And probably, had he been around in the time that we had all this modern communication, he would have had the same popularity as john paul ii and pope francis. Delia gallagher there and john allen breaking things down for us outside of vatican city as we watch this canonization event continue to unfold, although it is now official. The Catholic Church has two new saints, john paul ii and john xxiii. At this point, mass is under way. People will be watching this from around the world. There are an estimated more than 1. 2 billion catholics globally. Many people in argentina, the philippines, mexico, the united states, brazil. Its a faith followed by many in all corners of the globe. And on the right of your screen, youre watching viewers in poland, the birthplace, of course, of john paul ii, watching this momentous day. 93 official delegations in attendance, at least 24 heads of state. We did see live images earlier of Pope Emeritus Benedict xvi there near the altar, along with the queen of spain, queen sophia in attendance as well. Theres also at least 35 hi highlevel dignitaries and some interreligious delegations as well. As we heard from delia and john, there was a jewish delegation on hand, and that is seen as one of the most significant groups by the vatican, because it really signifies the relationship that john xxiii and john paul ii had with the jewish religion. Lets bring in Delia Gallagher and john allen again. And if you will, talk about the legacy of both these popes once again. And john paul ii, we mentioned that he has a complicated legacy, but hes also remembered for his role in helping bring down communism in eastern europe, delia. Yeah, he had an enormous impact in the world of his times and his role in the coming down of the iron curtain is probably exhibit a. Well remember that in 1979, he made his first homecoming to poland. [ speaking Foreign Language ]