Cast gate peop ca castigate people for saying the wrong word. Lately people are way too out there and crazy. And divided. Look at themselves. They need to the expression be the change that they want to see. Were mean, man. People are mean. One of the things i love most about our friendship. Were friends anyway. If it didnt work on tv, wed still be friends off it. Sure, we dont agree about things and we dont get angry. Like they expected. How are you disagreeing if youre not angry at him . I love him, hes my friend. If we dont agree we talk it out. We talk it off out camera. A little different language sometimes, but the same. People abandoned that. They think if theyre angry and hostile theyre right and strong. And wrong. Speaking of hostile. You were mad when you figured out my fiancee is an inch taller than you this weekend. You know what bothered me is he is shorter than i say i used to be. I think this neck thing has really done me dirty. Thanks for bringing that up in the interest of kindness. I have an important guest. Cory booker. I have to get to him. See you soon. Great guest. This is cnn tonight im don lemon. Thank you everyone for joining us. Joe biden just came out with a really Strong Defense to the controversy over comments he made at a fundraiser. While touting his Campaign Theme about his long record of bringing opposite sides together to get things done, biden talked about working in the senate in the 1970s with mississippi senator james o. Eastland and georgia senator her man talmadge. Both ardent opposers to civil rights. Biden saying this. I was in a caucus with james eastland. He never called me boy. Always son. Guess what . At least there was some civility. We got things done. We didnt agree on much. We got things done. We got it finished. Today you look at the other side and youre the enemy. Not the opposition. We dont talk to each other anymore. Well, bidens rivals for the nomination for president pouncing on his remarks and saying that she should apologize. Senator cory booker, hes here now, but heres what he said. He said, you dont joke about calling black men boys. Men like james o. Eastland used words like that and the racist policies that accompany them to perpetuate White Supremacy and strip black americans of our human very humanity. Well, tonight joe biden is saying its senator booker who owes him an apology. Senator booker joins me now here in studio. Thank you so much. Its really good to be back with you. So, listen, i said he came back strong. I dont know if you think his defense was strong, but what do you think specifically . Well, i was surprised that he didnt apologize for what he said. I was surprised that today he said i cory booker should have known better and he should apologize. Lets actually listen to him saying that. Yeah. I could not have disagreed with jim eastland more. He was a segregationist. I ran for the United States senate because i disagreed with the views of the segregationists. Many in the senate at the time. As i led the judiciary committee, what i was talking about was the Voting Rights act. I was able to pass the Voting Rights act while when i was a young senator, when he was still the chairman. We voted against him and beat him on the Voting Rights act. The point im making is you dont have to agree. You dont have to like the people in terms of their views, but you just simply make the case and you beat them. You beat them. Without changing the system. Are you going to apologize all right. Thanks, guys. Apologize for what . Cory bookers called for it. Cory should apologize. He knows better. Theres not a racist bone in my body. Ive been involved in civil rights my whole career. Period. Period. Period. Are you going to apologize . You know, the Vice President said i should no better, and this is what i know. As a black men in america, i know the deeply harmful and hurtful usage of the word boy and how it was used to dehumanize and degrade. I know that segregationists like the two people he was talking about through their laws and their language deeply wounded this nation and the present day manifestations of their work can still be seen in black and brown communities like the one i go home to. I know that somebody running for president of the United States, somebody running to be the leader of our party should know that using the word boy in the way he did can cause hurt and pain and we need a president ial nominee and the leader of our party to be sensitive to that, and the last thing i know is is i know that i was raised to speak truth to power and that i will never apologize for doing that. And Vice President biden shouldnt need this lesson. And at a time when we have from the highest offices in the land divisiveness, racial hatred and bigotry being spewed, he should have the sensitivity to know that this is a time i need to be an ally. I need to be a healer. I need to not engage in usage of words that will harm folks. So this is deeply disappointing. We waited for him to apologize. He didnt. Until the next day. Whether im running for president or not, as many people have been, on juneteenth, no less, calling out for the Vice President to acknowledge that his words were harmful and hurtful. So that means no apology from you. No. He said you should apologize. What do you make of his defense of the original Voting Rights act and all the work hes done with civil rights, as he said . Well, again, i dont understand why he needs this lesson. And i know you know this. When he says almost jokingly, remember, he was mocking a southern accent when he said that. They didnt call me boy, they called me son. The reason they call a young white man son, these segregationists, these racists could see in him themselves. The reason why they would call black men boys was an attempt to establish the other, to dehumanize, to degrade them, and for him not to understand this and why people would take a deep offense to the way he used and dredged up this awful language, and this is the thing that we need leaders that can bring us to more healing and more understanding. We all say in politics things that we regret or things that didnt come out right or as we intended it. The fact hes not apologizing you correct them as quickly as possible. Can i just ask you about this . Because in his remarks last night, the part where he says he didnt call him boy, a Senior Adviser says he has told the story countless times and usually phrases it, he never called me senator, he called me son. Would it matter to you if he told that story differently . What matters to me is a guy running to be the head of our party, which is a significantly diverse and wondrous party, doesnt understand or cant even acknowledge that he made a mistake. Whether the intention was there or not, thats what was stunning to me. And instead hes falling back into the defensive crouch that often people say, which is cory called me a racist or im not a racist, which is not what i said and not what im calling him. And this is the problem. He knows better. And at a time when donald trump never apologizing for anything and starts to create that kind of i think toxic sentiment that you never apologize, never apologize, never apologize, i know joe biden. Hes better than this and this is a moment where he should have spoken to the issue, allowed everybody to learn from it and move on. Those are the kinds of things a uniting leader, somebody who heals and helps would do and this is a disappointment. Youre not comparing what joe biden said to the comments of again of this president . Absolutely not. I know joe biden. I know our Vice President. Im simply saying that for him not to acknowledge how many people are taking this as hurtful to dredge up that word, to use it in the way he did a simple thing, i should not have said that, would have been fine for you . I should not have said that. Even if he could have helped and acknowledged what it brings up, acknowledge the issue. You know simone sanders. Simone sanders is a Senior Adviser saying something very similar on twitter to what he said. Does joe biden make a point that you need to sometimes work with people who staunchly disagree with or figure out how to work around them . So thats basically what she said. Are you buying that . Well, anybody who knows my campaign knows the way i work. I work across the aisle all the time. People i could write dissertations on my disagreements with. This is not what were talking about. Were talking about racial issues in america and how there are still hurt and harm, there are still issues to be dealt with, and for someone to show the lack of understanding or sensitivity to even know when theyve made a mistake and to fall into that kind of defensive posture and say im not apologizing that i should apologize to him is really problematic. So, listen, this is i think that you guys find yourselves in a very unusual position, meaning the Democratic Party, especially the candidates. When you have someone like donald trump in the white house who never apologizes, who says basically whatever he wants to say no matter what. And then, you know, i dont know what the former president thinks about this, but he says what hes concerned about is democrats and the firing squad, the circular firing squad, that you guys are basically going to beat each other up more than the person youre running against, meaning donald trump. Is there some truth in it for this particular issue . This is beyond politics. Again, if i was not a president ial candidate, i would call Something Like this out. Look, ive had the reality of having a father the indignity to watch another man call my father boy, to have myself have older men when i was a man to use those kinds of terms, these are the kinds of things that do cause hurt and harm, and these are the kind of things we should have an expectation of someone who is going to be the president of the United States or running for the president of the United States, seeking to be the leader of our party can speak to. So this is not about our politics or our president ial campaign or a circular firing squad, this is a sensitivity, this is an issue that we need to speak to in this country and not sweep things under the rug. And if you want to put it in a political context, you know, there are communities like the one i live in that want to believe that were going to have someone thats going to fight for them. He talks even the way he talked about his sterling civil rights record, you know, he should speak to his record, but as someone who has seen what the 1994 crime bill did in communities like mine, this is a time not to try to fall back into sweeping statements, its to try to talk to the issues that are still causing harm and still causing hurt. The language and the legislation. And for joe biden not to understand that he should be talking to these issues these issues as someone who he aspires to be, that can heal this nation, bring it together, not to do the kind of insulting rhetoric that he used the other night. Can i get you to clarify something . You said its problematic that he asked you to apologize. What do you mean by that specifically . You know, the fact that he is has said something that that an africanamerican man could find very offensive and then to turn around and say, you know, im not a racist, you should apologize to me. As opposed to as angela davis used to say, that it is not in a time of racism, it is not enough to say that i am not a racist, you need to be antiracist. We need from a former Vice President , from a president ial candidate, what we need from each other is to be allies, to be seeking understanding, to be seeking empathy. None of us are perfect. Were all going to say things that are wrong, but to recognize that and to take the step that you need for healing and reconciliation to admit to that. So for his posture to be to me, ive done nothing wrong, you should apologize, im not a racist is so insulting and so missing the larger point that he should not have to have explained to him. This should not be a lesson that someone who is running for president of the United States should have to be to be given. Thank you for addressing that. Also talk about something that you addressed today. He testified today along with Tanehisi Coates and danny glover before a house panel on reparations for slavery. Lets take a look at it. The stain of slavery was not just inked in bloodshed but in the overt statesponsored policies that fueled White Supremacy and racism and have disadvantaged africanamericans economically for generations. So what do you think . I mean, this is a hearing that fell on juneteenth, emancipation day that we talked about earlier, celebrating the end of slavery. You also introduced a reparations bill on the senate side. So, to do what . Well, the reparations bill is calling for a larger commission, bringing the best minds in america together to study the legacy of slavery, the legacy of many of the overtly racist policies that stemmed from it, White Supremacy, jim crow, the terrorism that reigned through the south where thousands and thousands of africanamericans were linynched up until the 195, the gi bill,s is, the redlining of many communities and led to the savage inequalities that we have today, the disparities in wealth, the disparities in health care, the disparities in educational opportunities. And this is something that were simply saying is bring folk together to study it, to try to come up with proposals with which to address it. With people who are trying to undermine this are saying, oh, this is all about taking money from one, giving it to the other, making people write checks. That is not what this is about. This is about understanding when you have savage inequalities along racial lines in this country, it actually hurts everyone. It undermines the wellbeing of this country, the wealth of this country, the success of this country, and that we all have a moral obligation given the ugly past to try to figure out ways to balance the Playing Field so we all prosper and address injustice and have a nation that really is who we say we are. I find it interesting people saying, well, its not going to work without even studying problem. They want the solution before the bill is even put, you know, into before you even put it on the floor to try to figure out how to do it. You have to figure out how to do it right to figure out what the exact solution will be. Am i wrong with that . Youre absolutely right. Brilliant folks are coming together. Why are we prejudging this and saying were afraid of folks sitting down and having conversations . Frankly, with this hearing, people said we should have had a long time ago, having open discussions. Speaking of that, senator Mitch Mcconnell dismissing the idea of reparations, and i just want you to take a listen to what he had to say. Here it is. Yeah, i dont think reparations for something that happened 150 years ago, for whom none of us currently living are responsible, is a good idea. Weve, you know, tried to deal with our original sin of slavery by fighting a civil war, by passing landmark civil rights legislation, weve elected an africanamerican president. I think were always a work in progress in this country, but no one currently alive was responsible for that. So after him saying that, you know, the only africanamerican republican senator tim scott backed him up saying that he doesnt think that reparations are plausible. What dau say o you say to that . First of all, what Mitch Mcconnell said i dont think needs to be addressed, to somehow equate democratically electing an africanamerican president , he said hes going to do Everything Possible to not make successful. I mean, thats just ludicrous and, you know, the outrage of that statement doesnt need to be doesnt need to be highlighted. But, look, the to say that reparations are not plausible assumes that we have a common definition of even what that word means. And the way i look at it is, we are dealing with historic systemic patterns of racism that manifest today in measurable inequalities. That we as a country should not believe that health outcomes, that the criminal Justice System, that financial well being should in any way be startified based upon race, unless you believe that different racial groups are innately inferior. In boston, where the average white family has 240,000 of wealth and the average black family of 8, speaks to larger tectonic causes that we have to address. If we are going to be successful as a whole. The wealth gap in america, the studies show that the median white household is ten times wealthier than the median black one. Youre proposing baby bonds to help with the racial wealth gap. Is that do you see that and reparations, is that part of the same conversation . Im one of the folks that keeps saying to folks, lets bring together a study for people some of the best minds in our country to make proposals but, again, im not going to wait. Im trying to do things right now that deal with overall income gaps. We have a nation where, you know, 40 of our country has very little wealth to zero to negative wealth to pass on to their families. Paychecks help you get by. Wealth helps you get ahead. In this society as we use our tax code to move billions of dollars, hundreds of billions of dollars of wealth to help people with wealth get more wealth. Thats what our tax code does. Lets have something that says if every child born in america gets a child savings account where the interest bearing account depending on your familys income, every year you get about 2,000 the lowest income families, regardless of race, by the time theyre 18, the lowest income americans will have about 40,000, 50,000 to invest in things that create generational wealth, going to college, starting a business, buying a home. You have disproportionate incomes for families often seen in race as Columbia University looked at that and said, hey, this is virtually going to eliminate the racial wealth gap. So ideas like this are policy ideas ive been putting forward. I fought to end the powder cocaine crack cocaine disparity. Got the bipartisan bill passed. Led it with dick durbin from the senate side. When we get to retroactive, it released thousands of people from jail. 96 of them were black and brown people. So i was very conscious that was going to have a racial impact because those laws in a criminal Justice System that is filled with implicit racial bias, those laws were having that negative racial outcome. So solving these things, putting forward common sense solutions, whether its baby bonds or reforms to the criminal Justice System, could help balance the Playing Field, but im open, as we all should be, to the best ideas with which to get our country to the point where we truly are a nation of liberty and justice for all and equality. Because that doesnt just help black folks. It makes us all wealthier as a nation. It makes us all more empowered because, again, i started my testimony by talking about the seven people that were shot about a few hundred yards from where i live last night. I imagine that other senators dont have this in their community but i live in a black and Brown Community below the poverty line. I point that out because there were no headlines about seven people being shot. We have communities right now that literally were walled off by redlining and racist mortgage policies. Were still seeing these problems today. The person that was killed in that community, we are bereft of the genius and the possibility of that child. When we address inequalities, the underlining of things that have held back or undermined the success of folks, when we address those things, we all will benefit from the genius of our children, the endless, Infinite Possibilities that human beings in this country have shown when they have a fair shot. All of that that you talked about, that needs to be studied when studying reparations and all of it in this country. Thank you. Come back for a longer time. Im grateful you gave me this opportunity tonight. Thank you, senator. Good luck out there. Joe biden is a frontrunner among democrats in the polls, but do his remarks about working with segregationist senators put him at odds with the 2019 Democratic Party. Lot to talk about. Thats straight ahead. D agents available 24 7. Its not just easy. Its havingawalrusingoal easy roooaaaar its a walrus ridiculous yes nice save, big guy good job duncan way to go [chanting] its not just easy. Its geico easy. Oh, duncan. Stay up. No sleepies. Agerelated macular man ivdegeneration,sed with which could lead to vision loss. So today i made a plan with my doctor, which includes preservision. Because its my vision, my love of the game, my open road, my little artist. Vo only Preservision Areds 2 contains the exact nutrient formula recommended by the National Eye Institute to help reduce the risk of moderate to advanced amd progression. Man because its my sunset, its how i see my life. Its my vision. Preservision. Here are even more reasons to join tmobile. 1. 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But today you look at the other side and youre the enemy, not the opposition. The enemy. We dont talk to each other anymore. And let hear biden again tonight claiming reaction to his remarks is much ado about nothing. I could not have disagreed with jim eastland more. He was a segregationist. I ran for the United States senate because i disagreed with the views of the segregationists, many of them in the senate at the time. As i led the judiciary committee, i was able to pass what i was talking about was the Voting Rights act. I was able to pass the Voting Rights act while when i was a young senator, he was still chairman, we voted against him and beat him on the Voting Rights act. The point im making is you dont have to agree, you dont have to like the people in terms of their views, but you just simply make the case and you beat them. You beat them. Without changing the system. Are you going to apologize like cory booker has apologize for what . Cory bookers called for it. Cory should apologize. He knows better. Theres not a racist bone in my body. Ive been involved in civil rights my whole career. Period. Period. Period. A Senior Adviser says biden has told the story of being called son by senator eastland many times, but usually says that eastland called him son and not senator because eastland didnt respect how young he was when he became senator and using the racially charged term boy for senator changes the way it lands because of the way that white people would demand black men, grown men by calling them boy. It still happens today. Aides say that he has been warned to drop the story because he could get into trouble. They seem to have sensed it wont be popular with democratic primary voters to talk about being civil with segregationists. Well, presto, its now an issue for him. It raises a question, is biden tone deaf . Is he out of step with the Democratic Party of 2019 . Hes using his status as frontrunner in the polls to go directly after President Trump. Labelling trump the divider in chief. But he is being called out by democrats, not trump. Who did an interview, by the way, with fox news tonight and seemed to allude to the controversy but didnt go on to attack go into full attack mode over it. But as we just saw with senator booker, bidens rivals wasted no time criticizing him today and theyre entitled to do so. To cottle the reputations of segregationists, people who if they had their way i literally would not be standing here as a member of the United States senate, is i think, its misinformed and its wrong. Im not here to criticize other democrats, but its never okay to celebrate segregationists. Never. While democrats want more than anything to beat donald trump, who said far, far worse things, outright racist things, and they call those things out, but trump never apologies. Democrats are showing the electorate they are going to be playing by much different rules, much different rules, rules President Trump certainly doesnt play by. Does joe biden really need to apologize . Karen finney, doug heye are going to dig into that next. Applebees new loaded chicken fajitas. Now only 10. 99. Wouldnt it be great to get a phone too . Et a wireless plan, switch to sprint and get an unlimited plan with the Samsung Galaxy s10e included. For just 35 a month. Its a big deal. For people with hearing loss, visit sprintrelay. Com for making bucket lists bookers know summer is for booking it like booking a beachside resort, and ordering two more tacos than you need to. Check. Showing the deep end whos boss check. Starting a scooter gang with the fam. Check. Awesome bookers know summer wont last forever. Youre gonna thank me so be a booker at booking. Com. The worlds number one choice for booking accomodations. 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Its time to upgrade. laughter tonight joe biden fighting off critics and defending his comments about working with segregationist senators in years past saying there is not a racist bone in my body. I want to bring in now karen finney and doug heye. Good to have both of you on. A lot of ground to cover in a short time. Karen, biden is firing back at booker. I just want to play this again. Watch this. Are you going to apologize like cory booker has called for . Apologize for what . Cory bookers called for it. Cory should apologize. He knows better. Theres not a racist bone in my body. Ive been involved in civil rights my whole career. Period. Period. Period. Karen, its not just hes doubling down there. Its not just booker, you know, its warren, harris, sanders and so on. Why do you think he doesnt see an issue with these remarks . Well, look, hes trying to you know, clearly his staff has tried to say to him, hey, this isnt a good example if youre going to try to use an example of working with people across the aisle. I mean, i was thinking about this today. Surely there are better, more modern examples, perhaps one from his time as Vice President to barack obama, right . How about his relationship with john mccain . But the other piece of this, you know, don, ill be very brief, having been a young child pulled over on a dark road in virginia with my father and the Police Officer called him boy, it was the most terrifying moment of my whole life. So to not understand that it is a, you know, the terrorism that that word embodies, thats whats so out of step, particularly at a time when, you know, donald trump is someone who we believe is inflaming and we talk about it all the time, inflaming so much of this like we saw in charlottesville, this kind of morass against each other. Doug, a little bit more of what biden had to say. Watch this. Okay. I could not have disagreed with jim eastland more. He was a segregationist. I ran for the United States senate because i disagreed with the views of the segregationists. Many of them in the senate at the time. As i led the judiciary committee, i was able to what i was talking about was the Voting Rights act. I was able to pass the Voting Rights act while when i was a young senator when he was still the chairman, we voted against him and beat him on the Voting Rights act, but the point im making is you dont have to agree, you dont have to like the people in terms of their views, but you just simply make the case and you beat them. You beat them. Without changing the system. Doug, does he make a point there to you . Well to some extent, yes, it reminds me of a conversation i had with him in 2016 when i told him my first job was for jesse helms, who he worked for a great deal at the Senate Foreign relations committee. Disagreed on a lot. Worked together on a lot. Agreeing with karen, having worked for eric cantor, i know how closely joe biden and eric cantor worked on the violence against women act for one example. John mccain, which not only emphasizes bipartisanship but gets under Donald Trumps skin which is something that joe biden has been trying to do pretty successfully. It would be a good way for him to get out of this current morass that hes in. Karen, before joe biden spoke to reporters today, he spoke at a fundraiser. I want to read this exchange that he had with the audience. Heres what it says. It says biden. He says , thanks for letting me play in this contest. Its going to be pretty ugly. The audience member says take them on, but biden says, but heres the deal, im not going to participate. How long do you think biden can try to stay above the fray and not participate . You cant its not about staying, quote, unquote, above the fray and not participating when you actually make an error either in judgement or in your comment, like when he talked about the hyde amendment, for example. He realized whether that was a political mistake or a change of heart, however they want to talk about it, he recognized it and they made the course correction. That is not the same thing as being pulled down into the mud with donald trump and his barrage of lies. It is about acknowledging who we are in 2019 and the fact that we have to be a party that stands in opposition to the kind of hatemongering that we see from this president. Karen, doug, thank you for your time. Ill see you soon. Thank you. Well have more to discuss as 2020 rolls closer. Thank you so much. Should descendants of slaves get paid reparations . The thing is its coming to a conclusion on that is not so easy. Were going to look at two sides to the argument. And thats next. So, jardiance asks. 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Com tv and never go to the post office again joe bidens comments about working with working with civilly working civilly with segregationists senators rubbing a lot of democrats really the wrong way and it comes as Congress Holds a hearing to consider legislation on making reparations for slavery. So i want to play some of todays testimony. It is very powerful. Here it is. Yesterday when asked about reparations, Senate Majority leader Mitch Mcconnell offered a familiar reply. America should not be held liable for something that happened 150 years ago since none of us currently alive are responsible. This rebuttal proffers a strange theory of governance, that american accounts are somehow bound by the lifetime of its generations. Well into this century the United States was still paying out pensions to the heirs of civil war soldiers. We honor treaties that date back some 200 years, despite no one being alive who signed those treaties. Many of us would love to be taxed for the things we are solely and individually responsible for. But we are american citizens, and thus bound to a collective enterprise that extends beyond our individual and personal reach. It would seem ridiculous to dispute invocations of the founders or the greatest generation on the basis of lack of membership in either group, while the Senate Majority leader Mitch Mcconnell is not alone in opposing legislation on reparations. There are serious questions about this from all sides of the political spectrum and theyre honest and sincere questions that we want to address, but putting aside the injustice of monetary reparations from current taxpayers for the since of a small subset of americans from many generations ago let me finish. The Fair Distribution of reparations would be nearly impossible once one considers the complexity of the american struggle to abolish slavery. Just consider this, okay . There are tens of millions of todays non africanamericans who are descended from people who arrived in the country, of course, after slavery ended, and therefore they cant be held responsible for its legacy. The conversation continues right after this break with dr. Cornell west. Well be right back. Weigh you down. New Infallible Fresh Wear Foundation by loreal. With up to 24 hr wear. Now, get longwear coverage from our most lightweight, breathable formula. For makeup that wont weigh you down. Defies sweat and transfer. Stays fresh. Feels light. All day to night. In 30 natural, matte shades. New Infallible Fresh Wear Foundation by loreal. Because youre worth it. Whoa. Travis in it made it. Its amazing. Oh is that traviss app . Its pretty cool, isnt it . Theres two of them. Theyre multiplying. No, guys, its me. See, im real. Im real he thinks hes real. Geico. Over 75 years of savings and service. So chantix can help you quit slow turkey. Rkey. 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Taxes and fees included. Still think you have a better deal . Bring in your discount, and well match it. Thats right. Tmobile will match your discount. I come facetoface with a lot of behinds. So i know theres a big need for new gasx maximum strength. It relieves pressure, bloating and discomfort fast. So no one needs to know youve got gas. Gasx. So no one needs to kn[laughter]got gas. Im okay. The House Holding a hearing on possible reparations for slavery. Emotions strong on both sides of the issue. So lets discuss now. Cornell west is here. Also, john mcwhorter. Good evening to both of you. We would have extended the conversation to cornell west and john, but john just showed up. John is just in the building. So thank you, gentlemen. Lets have this conversation because its a serious and important one. Dr. West, you heard majority leader Mitch Mcconnells arguments and many people, you know, make that same argument that slavery was 150 years ago. No one today is responsible. Is that what reparations is about . No, no, no, reparations is about truth and its about justice. Condition of truth allows suffering to speak and justice says what does fairness look like in america . And i think thats precisely what we heard this morning. I thought brother coates was wonderful. I thought sister Juliana Malveaux was magnificent, danny glover was strong and cory booker was wonderful. And i must say that brother biden ought to be ashamed of what he said about brother cory. Let me just put that out right now. Its the spirit of it. Talking about reparations, brother john and i, for example, might disagree, but we recognize we could be wrong, were open to counterarguments and we learn and listen. It looked like brother biden didnt want to learn or listen. He tightened up, became so dogmatic. You say, oh, my god, lets look at your eulogy for strom thurman. Lets look at the crime bill of 94, not 84 of strom thurman. Lets look at ways in which you could have been wrong and given you a chance to say you could be wrong and youre sorry about that, but, no, he backs up. And with this socratic spirit, were not going to get too far about reparations or any other issue, my brother. Okay. So, john, listen, dr. West says that, you know, you guys may disagree on this issue, and i think that you do. You say the Great Society was reparation enough here and that, you know, how programs from the 1960s make reparations for slavery and all other injustices since. That it makes up for that. Explain that. Do you disagree with him . No, i dont disagree with the idea that there should be reparations. If somebody said should be there r reparations for what was done to black people in terms of slavery, in terms of jim crow, even in terms of redlining, i would say yeah. And i honestly believe this is not some debate team think. It happened. If anybody wants to say im just a linguist and i dont know my history, well, frankly, i do know my history. If anyone wants to look at one example, what happened during the Great Society and you look at all the programs and how much money was put in. Those were reparations, they didnt happen to use the word, but that was already tried and the fact is social history is complicated, and i think that what we need to do now is do all sorts of things that can help poor black people be less poor. Its not that we dont have work to do, but the idea that we need to get, frankly, a bunch of mostly white people in business clothes to say im sorry and to cut some checks, i dont think it would be very effective, and the main thing, briefly, is that im afraid based on how people felt after the Great Society and also the fact that i think that we as a people have a battered psychology because of all the terrible things that happened to us and it can be hard to have a selfdirected sense of identity. I think that after reparations happened, if it happened, then immediately practically before the ink was dry on the legislation, the smart thing would be to say reparations was just the beginning, that they better not think they can treat us like animals for 400 years and then pay us off. The idea would be for smart black people and fellow travellers to say that reparations really werent that important. Don, this is the problem. If thats what it would be like, and, frankly, i really do imagine that thats what it would be like. Nobody would want to say america has turned a corner, that the shoe has dropped, that america has come to terms. The idea would be, be wary. Its not over and that didnt matter. If thats what people are going to say, why do it . Why not just fight black poverty and then have a little thank you session afterwards where people say theyre sorry and cut some checks . Go ahead, dr. West. No, i think that part of it is just having the courage to acknowledge that we happen to have a fragile experiment in democracy thats founded on two monstrous crimes against humanity. Dispossession of land and the near annihilation of Indigenous Peoples and enslavement of precious african peoples. Now, that doesnt exhaust all of america. Thats the worst of america. There is the best of america, but first its that acknowledgement. As long as you live in denial, youre not going to get there. Thats the issue of truth. Lets be truthful about who america has been and who it is, and the fact that jim crow as the great Orlando Patterson says was neoslavery pure and simple that inspired naziism, it inspired hitler, it inspired german fascism. So you had another 90 years of neoslavery and that constituted an intraictal part of the possibilities of our precious White Brothers and sisters from europe to come in and move to the front of the jim crow bus while were pushed to the back after having built the country with our free labor enslaved under these vicious circumstances. Lets just come to terms with that truth. But let me just say this quickly, though, because there is a lot of talk about slavery as the original sin. We got to get off that. Thats not true. We cant talk about black suffering in such a way that it downplays the suffering of original peoples. It was the treatment of the slavery became center, of course, because it was our labor that would build the country and generate all of these possibilities in terms of sustaining what we understand american democracy in its truncated form is all about. Don, all i think is that, yes, all of what brother west said is true, but i think that this reparations issue is a really interesting turning point. You know, ive been saying for 20 years now that i think reparations already happened. You know, i could get behind this idea that we would have to have what i would internally call new reparations, and i would apply my pen and my voice to it. I might surprise a lot of people. I could try to get behind this. One must change. One must be open to things. But i really do think that the people who are arguing for this need to consider what it would feel like to admit, not that things are perfect, but that america had turned a corner and as brother west says, that we have come to terms. When are we ever going to come to terms . As a black person, i would like to feel whole. If this isnt going to be constructive, we shouldnt do it, but im afraid that a lot of black people in the United States would be uncomfortable with the idea that something really significant had been done. Because i think a lot of us feel that being victims is the only way that we are legitimate, and thats because of what happened for 400 years. I understand. But it worries me. Lets do reparations and allow that it mattered and be whole or lets just not do it. Ive got to go. This is fascinating, brother don. If you can respond in ten seconds. But i do want to say this, i do want to say this, william dougherty. Yvette cornell and tony amore. The legacy of queen mother moore. Its something that we must come to terms with so that the voices are able to come together, accenting the specificity of the black condition but also as citizens. This is why brother bernies so important. We need redistribution of wealth based on citizenship, but weve also got to come to terms with these monstrous crimes that go even beyond citizenship. I know you dont have enough time. You got it all right. Its a beautiful thing on your tv show. Well, listen, i got to say, and john you said, listen, dr. West, you always say profound things. You talked about the black psychology and how we were beat up i didnt write that part down, but you said as a black person i would like to feel whole. I think you make some really great points with that because when you talk about having the sort of psychology that you say that would move us forward, a lot of people resist that. And ive gotten beaten up for that. Ive seen it. So have you. So has dr. West. A lot of us do when we talk about those things. Listen, this conversation is to be continued. I hope so. It was fascinating. Both of you are coming back on. Well be right back. Applebees new loaded chicken fajitas. Now only 10. 99. 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