Robert mueller. Hes reportedly still going back and forth on whether hell talk to mueller at all. So it couldnt be more important for President Trump to have a legal team that can handle all of this. Yet more and more star lawyers are turning down offers to join the trump team, leaving the president with just one personal lawyer working fulltime on the response to the mueller investigation. And make no mistake, americans are watching all of this. Our new cnn poll out tonight shows six in ten think the investigation is serious. And most americans, 55 , say the president is not doing enough to cooperate with the investigation. And with all of this, the president is also struggling to make good on one of his Biggest Campaign promises, the wall. Build that wall. Since theres no money for a border wall in the spending bill the president signed last week, signed under protest, the one that some of his team members worked on, now he is floating the idea of getting the pentagon to foot the bill, which is, well, lets call it, extremely unlikely. Whatever happened to mexico paying for the wall . Oh, right, they said no. I want to bring in now cnns chief political analyst Gloria Borger and political analyst april ryan. Good evening to both of you. Thanks for joining us this evening. Gloria, why is President Trump staying silent on two issues facing the administration, russia and Stormy Daniels . Well, the question of stormy is a little bit easier to answer. Its, you know, its clear to me that his lawyers are telling him that theres no upside to him for talking about this, because if he talks about it, it becomes more and more part of the news cycle, and what hes trying to do is stop the news cycle, except that hasnt happened, because hes met his match in Stormy Daniels and her attorney, michael avenatti, who are keeping the story alive. I think the other issue, quite frankly, is personal. Which is that he has a wife and he has a child and his wife is clearly unhappy about this and if he goes out there and denies it, then hes going to perhaps have to take a deposition in court and his Public Comments will then be judged against the comments in court and then his wife will make him answer for all of that, if she hasnt already. So i think theres a personal side, a legal side, and a political side to all of this. As for russia, you know, thats the big question, don. I mean, you know, you the United States did absolutely the right thing in expelling diplomats. And we heard about it from everyone else, except the president himself, who is happy to tweet about russia. The russian investigation, calling it a hoax and a witchhunt but not about this expulsion. And i think thats only a question that he could answer if we would ever get to ask it. April, sarah sanders, today, watch this. Yes. The president has still been incredibly engaged. He gives us messages to come out and deliver on his behalf on the regular basis. But hes also put out a number of tweets over the last week. He also has a country to run. And hes doing a great job with that. Sometimes he chooses to specifically engage and punch back and sometimes he doesnt. Okay, so, april, he is not tweeting because he has a country to run . Lets get real. This president tweets about all sorts of things, all the time. He is watching cable news all hours of the day and at night as well. Yeah, and remember, this president has been using what they term as executive time in the morning to make these tweets. And he would come into the white house, you know, granted, he lives above the store, he would come into the white house around 11 30 when other president s, at least barack obama and george w. Bush would come in around 7 30, 8 30 at the late effort in the morning. Yes, this president does tell Sarah Huckabee sanders and others to offer his thoughts to different subjects. But at the same time, when youre so used to hearing this president , when hes happy, when hes sad and when hes just downright angry. But whats happening right now, don, even though this president is not tweeting, the president is the world is still rotating on its axis and all is well. So these tweets are or lack of tweets are kind of astounding when you have a president who has been so vocal, who has gone around his press shop, and hes possibly, as gloria said listening finally to his lawyers because this has some serious tentacles that go farther than just this moment. Do you think do you think, gloria, in both cases, the president s silence is because putin and Stormy Daniels may know something about trump . Well, we know what Stormy Daniels knows. Shes told her story on 60 minutes, in excruciating detail, i might add. You know, the putin question, i honestly i honestly cant answer. I mean, thats something, obviously, that Robert Mueller is looking into. And, you know, that is the big question. Why has this president been so reticent to criticize Vladimir Putin . You know, its a mystery. Its a mystery and we dont we just dont know the answer to that. I, um i think maybe one day we will. Maybe one day well get to ask the president that question. I would like to. And maybe one day hell answer it. Maybe we shall see. If you do, let us know. Yeah. April, i mentioned it in the open. You know, the white house released the schedule for tomorrow, and unless there are any additions, i mean, it will be the fifth day with no open events to the press and the american people. Sarah sanders says that the president is incredibly engaged. How is that incredibly engaged . I have the schedule here. Its nothing theres nothing on there tomorrow for the public. Press briefing with press secretary sanders, white house in the Briefing Room on camera. At 1 30. The president has lunch with the secretary of defense, private dining room, closed press. The president hosts a credentialing ceremony for newly appointed ambassador to washington, oval office, closed press. You know, im thinking back to when this president was in negotiations, trying to prevent a Government Shutdown and his staff was actually, during the negotiations, but they were saying that he was president ial. It almost reminds me of that time when hes in the background and everyone else is in the foreground. Sarah will be in the foreground tomorrow. But, again, this goes back to all of this controversy. And he must be listening to his lawyers at this time. But at the same time, this is not just about mueller anymore. And, yes, russia is a big issue, but right now, im going to go to this Stormy Daniels issue. Its not just about the mueller investigation. And now mueller could be looking at Stormy Daniels, trying to find the trail of money. And then you can also now be bringing in the fec, which could take a year to look at this, if they do. And then on top of that, you bring in Michael Cohen. Michael cohen could wind up being squeezed like a lemon to flip, just to get information. So this is a whole new wrinkle in this very complicated russia investigation that could go into Stormy Daniels. And when we talk about Michael Cohen, remember this, no lawyer worth his salt or worth his degree will actually do what he did. 130,000 equity line of credit for his friend client to give to to pay off to someone, to keep her quiet, just days before an election. And no one has done this. And there could be a complaint to the bar about what he did. So this has got a lot of tentacles that could still continue to unfurl in the middle of this. The president is being smart by being quiet. Well, you know, sometimes hell walk over to the rope line when hes getting off the plane or the helicopter and come over and talk. But he hasnt. He really hasnt had a full press conference, lets see, in how long . 404 days since the president , his last real over a year. His last real press conference. Hes gone on favorable media. But, listen, in cohens defense, he says hes very loyal to the president , he loves him, theyre good friends, and he did it without the president s knowledge. Thats his defense. But, gloria, speaking of lawyers, two more lawyers have declined to represent President Trump in the russia investigation. I mean, in d. C. , i mean, you cant throw a rock down the street without hitting a lawyer. Why is that . Whats going on here . Well, they think hes a lousy client, don, for one. Hes a client who wants to run his own legal team. He doesnt take the advice of his attorneys. Thats one of the reasons john dowd quit. And he wants to run the show. And there are also lots of firms at this point, as you know, who are involved in this case in one way or another. So lots of large law firms have real conflicts. And other law firms are kind of saying they have conflicts. From the white house perspective, and i talked to people there, they say, look, were in no rush. Jay sekulow is handling the negotiations with bob mueller. He was always in those negotiations. So if dowd is gone, thats still proceeding a pace. And they say theyre in no rush, but they are aware, and i can tell you this, that if the democrats were to take the house, for example, they better get another lawyer who understands what impeachment is and how to deal with that. And so i think theyre casting a net here. They say they have lawyers calling them. But they just say, stay tuned, were not in a rush. The lawyers that we talked to all say, you know what . I dont want to get involved in this. Its very, its very difficult. And they dont want to put their firms through it, because it could cost them business at their law firms. I want you guys to stick around. David gergen will join us for the next block, so stay with me and well have more conversation. Whos going to pay for the wall . The president used to say mexico. Now he says, maybe the pentagon should pick up the tab. Can the president make good this may have been his Biggest Campaign promise. Can he . Directv gives you more for your thing. Your toprated thing. That five stars, two thumbs up, 12outof10, would recommend thing. Because if you only want the best thing, you get the 1 thing. Directv is rated 1 in Customer Satisfaction over cable. Switch now and get a 200 reward card. More for your thing. Thats our thing. Call 1. 800. Directv you can do it. We can do this. At fidelity, our online planning tools are clear and straightforward so you can plan for retirement while saving for the things you want to do today. Whoo while saving for the things sarge, i just got a tip. Thatll crack this case wide open turns out the prints at the crime scene awwwww. Did Mcgruffy Wuffy get a tippy wippy . Im serious we gotta move fast before whos a good boy . Is him a good boy . Erg. Im just gonna go. Oh, you wanna go outside . You gotta go tinky poopoo . I already went, ok . In the bathroom as long as people talk babytalk to dogs, you can count on geico saving folks money. Fifteen minutes could save you fifteen percent or more on car insurance. So it seems to pop up every time the president has a problem. Michael cohen, Donald Trumps longtime fixer, and were learning a lot more about him tonight and about what he does for the president. Gloria borger has that. Shes back with me, along with april ryan and david gergen joins the group. David, welcome to the program. Thank you, don. I want to start with gloria, because gloria did a profile on him and shes going to set this up for us. President trumps fixer, attorney Michael Cohen, who is a central figure, really central to Stormy Daniels, that controversy, lets take a look at it. Michael was, id always like to say, the ray donovan of the office. Ill take care of it. He took care of what had to be taken care of. I dont know what had to be taken care of, but all i know is that michael was taking care of it. He was the guy, you could call 3 00 in the morning when you have a problem. Do you know stories of donald trump calling him at 3 00 in the morning . Donald trump has called him at all hours of the night. Every dinner ive been at with michael, the boss has called. Reporter but cohen did not call the boss, he says, when he decided to pay Stormy Daniels 130,000 out of his own pocket, 11 days before the election. So, its not just Stormy Daniels. Michael cohens name comes up when it comes to things involving trump and russia, gloria . Right. Michael cohen, since 2007, has been at Donald Trumps side and has done anything donald trump wants him to do. And so hes worked on a variety of businesses. He also worked on a lot of branding issues. One of those was trump tower moscow, where during the election, when the president was saying, ive had no contact with russia, im not doing any business with russia, at the same time, Michael Cohen was signing or getting a letter of intent to try and brand a trump tower moscow. And that deal fell through. Never happened, but was going on during the campaign. And i think that he was doing it, clearly, at the behest of the trump organization, which probably didnt think donald trump was going to win. And wanted to continue its business and could really capitalize on the fact that donald trump was now a lot more well known and popular, even than he had been during the apprentice. And so what cohen has always done is whatever donald trump wants. Ahh. So, david, all this really shows just how unique this president is. Michael cohen didnt come to the west wing with the president , but the president is still financially tied to his private companies and still tied to his fixer at the trump organization. It certainly appears that way. And glorias reporting has been very, very helpful on this question. And its worth remembering that mueller, the special counsel, is now investigating the trump tower and moscow episode and how it fits into this broader pattern in trying to put the dots together. So Michael Cohen has suddenly become a very, very important player. And i think that one other thing we know for certain, in a sea of uncertainties, is that a guy like Michael Cohen, who is your fixer, does not do anything, especially for donald trump, that trump doesnt want done or that trump doesnt ask him to do. So, Michael Cohen is operating, when he dealt with the women, he was operating, you just have to assume that donald trump knew exactly what he was doing and the notion that donald trump was somehow separated from a 130,000 payment, for example, on its face is a very, very hard thing to believe. You think that the president well, he wasnt president then knew what Michael Cohen was doing . I think he knew everything that Michael Cohen was doing. And i think Michael Cohen kept him informed, because thats the nature of these kind of relationships. Weve had other people who have sort of fixers or someone who lives next to them and they know everything. And, by the way, theres an old saying, no man is a hero to his valet because they see everything. They see all the dark sides. And i think Michael Cohen has been there, from what gloria has been reporting, has been there for a decade at his side and would not move on something without talking to him. Yeah. And lets just remember, it is being portrayed in some media that this is about a story that happened, you know, a long time ago between Stormy Daniels and the president. This is about what happened 11 days before the election. Exactly. That is the issue here. Exactly. Yeah. So, april, listen, lets talk about the wall because i think dont you think the wall was his Biggest Campaign promise, guys . That was probably build a wall, build a wall. But sources are telling cnn, april, that President Trump is privately floating the idea that the u. S. Military should foot the bill for the construction of the border wall with mexico. But, i mean, i just want to go back in time, way back not even way back during the campaign. Watch this. And whos going to pay for the wall . [ chanting mexico ] 100 . What happened to mexico . They said, you know what you can do with your wall. So, anyway, they said, no, no, this isnt going to happen. But heres the bottom line. This president made a promise about mexico during the campaign and mexico paying for the wall. But he also, during the campaign, talked about our soldiers and talked about the u. S. Military and when he got into the white house, he talked about the u. S. Military and supporting them and wanting more money to bolster the forces. And you know, he said just last week, he would not normally sign a bill like this, but the only reason he signed this omnibus bill was about the bolstering of pay and other things for the military. And now what does he do, floats an idea to take the money to build this very expensive wall that fiscal conservatives are very upset about it. So there is it just doesnt compute. One minute, we understand that he wants the wall, but he also wants to support the military. And hes happy with the financial boon that happened in the omnibus bill for them. But at the same time, hes going to take to build this wall to stop illegal immigrants, as well as drugs, he says. And the military doesnt fight that the last time i heard about it. Yeah, but well, its not going to happen anyway because the money you cant just take money out of one pot and put it in another if youre president. You stole my line, gloria i have it, listen. Here it is. Im just going to read it congressional budgeting is done with very specific instructions for how dollar amounts are spent. Any repurposing of funds requires express congressional approval which trump is unlikely to get. A source noted that additional authorization for congress would be necessary if this option were pursued. Go ahead, gloria. Yeah, but they are always absolutely. Gloria. Absolutely. You cant just do that. So you would have to it would have to go back to congress. Congress is not going to approve it. I think donald trump was getting a little creative here, and he was thinking, oh, my god, where am i going to get 25 billion . Well, maybe ill take it out of the Defense Budget since they got so much money recently, and this is a matter of national security. The wall is a matter of national security. Well, it doesnt quite work that way. Youre not king. You cant just say, this money goes there, and this money goes somewhere else. I mean, you know, maybe he gets an a for effort, but it isnt going to happen. David, you know, we know the president brought this up with the House Speaker but, don ive got to get david in real quick, april. With House Speaker paul ryan. Does this fly in the face of what trump was promising, to rebuild the military . Well, it certainly suggests that he thinks that theres a lot of money just floating around now, and theres just and it certainly it suggests, what kind of disciplined process is this that leaves 20 to 25 billion just floating around that the president thinks he can take without impairing the quality of the military. This is you know, if we dont need the money, you know, if the money is not there, if he thinks theres money there for the wall, and congress is not going to do it, shouldnt be any appropriations bill to start with. Its just, you know, its fat. They ought to get rid of it and spend it on more important things. And, april, ive got to go, so quick, if you can do it in five seconds, didnt his own people work on this this money, the budget that he complained about and threatened to veto . Yeah, they did, and his own people, his own party, and the problem is is this president looks bad when he wanted to veto something his own party put together and he approved. Thank you, all. Fascinating conversation. Love to have you every night, but, you know, youre not available every time. Thank you, appreciate it. We have some breaking news to tell you about. Its on north korea. Kim jongun made a surprise fourday visit to china and host talks with president xi jinping, thats according to the chinese staterun news agency. The news coming after two days of intense speculation over the sudden appearance of a mystery north korean luxury train in the chinese capital. President xi has now reportedly accepted an invitation to visit north korea. The white house saying, quote, we see this development as further evidence that our campaign of maximum pressure is creating the appropriate atmosphere for dialogue with north korea. More details to come. When we come back, the question swirling around washington, is the president above the law . My next guest who argued nine cases before the Supreme Court says you can indict a president. You wont see these folks at the post office they have businesses to run they have passions to pursue how do they avoid trips to the post office . Stamps. 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Comcast, building americas largest gigspeed network. It is a question looming over washington and legal experts are going headtohead over it. Can a sitting United States president be indicted . Walter dellinger is a former assistant attorney general and a former acting solicitor attorney general. He believes the answer is yes and he joins me now. Mr. Dellinger, thank you so much for joining us. You wrote an oped in the New York Times. It says, yes, you can indict the president. And you argue that without the power to indict, a president could never be held accountable for crimes committed while in office. Explain that. Well, you know, most federal crimes have a period within which you either have to prosecute someone, indict someone, or not. Or they forever go free. For most federal crimes, thats a period of five years. So if a president commits, is engaged in criminal activity before taking office and cant be indicted while he or she is in office, that five years can expire. A president might even be tempted to run for reelection to make sure that the period for bringing criminal charges elapsed while he or she was in office. You know, don, i dont think that a president could be made to go through a trial while he was serving. I think that would be too disruptive of his role of being chief executive of the nations government. But theres really not a very good argument against indicting a president. Yeah. So, in other words, youre saying, no one is above the law, not even the president because that appears to be the thinking now, that a president cannot be indicted, cannot go to trial and so on. Thats right. I mean, there is an opinion of the Legal Counsel to the Justice Department from 2000, the most recent opinion, mainly deals with the question of whether a president could be put on actual criminal trial. It deals briefly with the question of whether a mere indictment is possible. And says, well, no, that would put a cloud over the presidency, so that shouldnt be allowed either. It could well be that the, that the special counsel would consider himself bound by that opinion, though he could ask the Justice Department, the Legal Counsel, to give serious consideration as to whether theres any reason not to indict a president. Take, for example, the situation where a president is one of several defendants in a multicount indictment. You could have the president as a, quote, unindicted coconspirator. Thats what nixon investigator Leon Jaworski did during the watergate scandal. But that, itself, cast a cloud over the presidency, without actually taking care of the statute of limitations problem that a president could go free if the time expired for criminal charges while he was in office. Let me ask you this, because mr. Dellinger, you argued the clinton v. Jones case before the Supreme Court, making the case that indicting president clinton would keep him from doing the job of running the country, and that turned out to be a losing argument. So why are you arguing the other side when it comes to this president , to President Trump . Well, a couple of reasons, don. The most important one is that we lost clinton against jones 90. The court rejected the position we argued. So the law is established by clinton against jones that you can actually make a president go through a civil trial while hes in office, and so and sets a very High Standard for exempting or immunizing a president from the ordinary criminal processes. But moreover, i argued in clinton against jones that an actual civil trial ought to be postponed. Not that the complaint should be dismissed. And clintons personal lawyers in that case were willing to stipulate that they would not argue that any expiration of time barred her suit. If the case were postponed. So in both cases, i believe that a civil trial and a criminal trial should be postponed. But that a civil complaint should be allowed to go forward, at least to be issued, and that an indictment could be issued, which would make sure that the president would ultimately be accountable for any criminal activity. Even if he was, maybe after he was out of office, right . Yes, yes. Even if you have to wait until hes out of office. All right. So theres so much swirling around President Trump. Lets start with the special counsel, Robert Muellers investigation. Hes looking at collusion or conspiracy from a legal perspective. Obstruction of justice also possible and appropriate Financial Connections to russia, that could all involve the president. How would charges stemming from muellers investigation be brought . Well, a couple of things. It is an exercise of wisdom and judgment and not just logic, so that a special counsel might well think that he should defer to the house of representatives and their impeachment processes in a trial by the senate. That would be particularly commendable in circumstances where its the crimes are of a political nature. But suppose the crimes are more ordinary criminal cases like tax evasion or money laundering. In that case, the independent counsel could file an indictment naming multiple defendants. A president might say, oh, you have to strike me from the indictment, because im a sitting president who cant be indicted. At that point, the special counsel or the judge would say, will you will you agree that you will not argue, after you leave office, that the time for bringing charges is expired . And only if the president agrees to that would you withdraw an indictment. Yeah. So, before he resigned, the president s lawyer, john dowd, argued that the president cannot obstruct justice, because under the constitution, he is the chief Law Enforcement officer. Does that argument hold water, do you think, mr. Dellinger . Im Holding Water now, and the answer is no. The answer is absolutely no. That is the lamest argument that i have that i have ever heard. A president has the power to appoint people, to fire people, but he cant do it for a corrupt reason without triggering criminal liability. A president who takes a bribe in order to appoint someone or fire someone is guilty of bribery and a president who fires someone for a corrupt motive can be guilty of obstruction. How much peril is this president in, do you think . How much trouble is he in . How much peril . Yeah. Peril, i really dont know. One of the things that has been absolutely wonderful about the special counsel muellers operation is that they dont leak. The only thing we know, i see in the press, don, has come from people who are interviewed by his office, not by anything from this office. So we just dont know what we dont know. My guess is that weve only seen the tip of the iceberg of the matters that mr. Mueller is investigating. You know, there was a time when people said, oh, mueller is not investigating anything having to do with collusion with the russians. Well, i thought, nobody knows that. Nobody knows what hes looking at at this moment. Yeah. Walter dellinger, the article is in the New York Times entitled yes, you can indict the president. Thank you, sir. Youre quite welcome. Thank you, don. And when we come back, are you an american citizen . Why the Trump Administration says that question on the upcoming census is necessary to protect voters. Were going to break down the logic behind that next. How do you chase what you love with moderate to severe Rheumatoid Arthritis . Do what i did. Ask your doctor about humira. 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That five stars, two thumbs up, 12outof10, would recommend thing. Because if you only want the best thing, you get the 1 thing. Directv is rated 1 in Customer Satisfaction over cable. Switch now and get a 200 reward card. More for your thing. Thats our thing. Call 1. 800. Directv the Trump Administration defending its decision to include a question about citizenship on the 2020 census. It was dropped decades ago and adding it back already has prompted lawsuits from some states. Here to discuss, vanita gupta, the former head of the civil rights Justice Department and michael higenbothum, professional of constitutional law and author of ghosts of jim crow. Thanks for joining us. Lets talk about this, michael. You believe this is a bad idea and politically motivated. Why so . I think its a real bad idea, don. The census is so important. We have to get it right. Theres so many things that are connected to it. Particularly when it comes to apportionment in terms of our house of representatives, the state representatives from each state, and also in terms of federal funding for central essential services, medicaid, head start, school lunch program. So its really important that we get it right. And what im concerned about is that this is partisan politics. Im suspicious when, you know, republicandominated state legislatures pass restrictive voter i. D. Laws under the guise of protecting imaginary voter fraud. Im equally suspicious when you have an attorney general whos not known for protecting voter rights suggesting that we include this request, which could seriously impact an accurate calendar. But, michael, the administration is saying the question about citizenship is being added to satisfy the Justice Department, who is looking for voter for a violation of the Voting Rights act. Is there a problem with that rationale for you . Theyre saying theyre trying to protect Voting Rights. Well, there is a problem in the sense that funding is tied to various Services Based upon an accurate count. And in our climate today, theres a great deal of suspicion about people participating in the census. And so im concerned, the census has to accurately count not only citizens, but noncitizens, as well. And im concerned of getting that accurate count. Im concerned that the census is only as good as the publics willingness to participate in it. And im concerned that this is a guise to reduce the participation in the census so we dont get an accurate count. So, vanita, the white house was wrong on the facts when it came to the question of legal citizenship. Watch this. This is a question thats been included in every census since 1965 with the exception of 2010 when it was removed. This is weve contained this question thats provided data thats necessary for the department of justice to protect voters and specifically to help us better comply with the Voting Rights act, which is something that is important and a part of this process. So, vanita, the question actually hasnt been asked since the 1950s. Why was it taken off the short questionnaire back then . Well, it was taken off in the 1950s, and ill remind you, by the way, thats the precivil rights era when communities of color were systemically underrepresented and undercounted. And it hasnt been on the short form of the census that goes to every single household around the country since 1950. So the white house got multiple things wrong. They got that fact wrong. They got the fact that this is necessary for Voting Rights enforcement wrong. I oversaw the Justice Departments Voting Rights enforcement for just under 2 1 2 years. And the enforcement of the Voting Rights act has never depended on a citizenship status question being on the short form of the census. In fact, the Justice Department has relied on data that is obtained from the American Community survey, which is sent to a sampling of households. Its a much longer form with very different conditions. And so, the white house kind of over and over again made false statements. And then, of course, as you pointed out, jeff sessions, whos called the Voting Rights act intrusive, claiming to suddenly want to enforce the Voting Rights act using this data, carrying a deeply antiimmigrant nativist agenda. I think folks can see this for what it is. But there is a huge consequence. This is an alarming development. And its really up to congress to undo or for the courts to protect and save the census, which is a cornerstone of our democracy. It should not be weaponized for political reasons. It shouldnt be weaponized for nativist reasons. Weve got to be able to fight to protect the census to be a nonpartisan count. And its supposed to count all people, not all citizens, correct . Thats the ultimate purpose . Thats right. You know, there are very few programs that are actually written into the constitution, but the 14th amendment is clear that every ten years, this country has to count all people. Not citizens versus n noncitizens, but every Single Person in this country regardless of their status or background. And thats why youre seeing litigation in the numbers that you are right now. So, michael, President Trumps Reelection Campaign sent an email to supporters last week talking about adding the Citizenship Question. Saying the president wants the 2020 United States census to ask people whether or not they are citizens. In another era, this would be common sense. But 19 attorneys general said they will fight the president if he dares to ask people if they are citizens. The president wants to know if youre on his side. So, many people are viewing this as an attempt to suppress the counting of minorities and immigrants. Will it have that effect . I think here we go again. I think it could have that effect, because theres a great deal of concern from individuals about the government and about Immigration Rights and immigrant status. And so, i think, individuals may simply say, im not going to participate in this. I dont want to open my door to people who may come to the door and i dont know who they are. So i think there will be some concern, and its alarming. Yep. Michael, vanita, thank you very much, i appreciate the conversation. When we come back, could the citizen quip question on the census actually be political playback. Why some blue states are crying foul and what they could stand to lose. Termites, feasting on homes 24 7. Were on the move. Roger. Hey rick, all good . Oh yeah, were good. Were good. Termites never stop trying to get in, we never stop working to keep them out. Terminix. Defenders of home. Janice, mom told me you bought a house. Okay. [ buttons clicking ] [ camera shutter clicks ] so, now that you have a house, you can use homequote explorer. Quiet. Im blasting my quads. Janice, look. Im in a meeting. Janice, look. [ chuckles ] look, look. Im looking. Its easy. You just answer some simple questions online, and you get Coverage Options to choose from. Youre ruining my workout. Cycling is my passion. Youre ruining my workout. The smoother the skin, the more comfortable you are in it. And now theres a new way to smooth. Introducing new venus platinum. A premium metal handle boosts control. To reveal up to 100 smooth skin. Venus state of california wasting no time filing a lawsuit today to block the Trump Administration from putting a Citizenship Question back on the census. Other states saying theyll do the same fearing they could lose federal funds, not to mention power in washington. I want to bring in commentators joan walsh and scot scott jennings. So glad to have you both on. This is an interesting conversation. Scott, two maps explain why the census change is bad for democrats. Pew Research Center shows where most of the 11 million undocumented immigrants live in america. Theyre largely clustered in 20 cities. Check out the Political Landscape from 2017. Every single one of those areas trends blue voting heavily democratic for state legislators there is there any question that will hurt democrats politically . If you want to answer that question, youre basically accepting the premise people will be too afraid to fill out the census because of this question being added. Im not sure that is correct. I dont think its the presence of the question that makes someone afraid. If someone were here illegally and fearful of papers, they were going to make the decision to be afraid before scanning an the questions on the sheet. I also think its important to remember in this debate, don, it is illegal for the Census Bureau to share any of this information with another agency. That is against federal law. Democrats are trying to make folks afraid and trying to generate outrage but leaving out core facts here. I think frankly maybe blowing this out of proportion. Go ahead, joan. The core fact is bipartisan groups of census officials past and present have said that this question will in fact depress census participation. And your former boss, george w. Bush, the Bush Administration administered they put together the last census. It did not used to be political. This question hasnt been there since 1950. When the Obama Administration came in, they administered the Bush Administrations census questions. It was bipartisan. This is a partisan move. It is obvious why theyre doing it. Experts in the field and you tend to defer to them, scott, youre reasonable. They say this is a problem. This is going to depress the count and representation. Theyre saying dont do it. Wilbur ross is all alone with donald trump who is now trying to fund raise around it saying do it. It is very political. Scott, you said it was democrats. Other experts including several former directors of the census warn adding the question could result in inaccurate answers and reduced response rates. According to the experts on earlier, it is according to the constitution that persons are counted and not citizens. Yeah, i dont reject the concept we need to count all persons. I dont understand why with all the other information we collect why the condition of being a citizen is so problematic. In past counts, people have been assured by posters and other information deposits that no information you give to the census is going to be shared with any other agency. It strikes me if we follow federal law and dont share information among agencies and reassure people that is the law and that they should it be forthcoming we can alleviate a lot of fears. I dont hear people talking about the fact its against the law for the census to share this information. I dont reject counting all persons but do reject not reminding people this information wont be shared. The census has in the past shared the information to assist with japanese interment during world war ii and there are some allegations that information was shared where Muslim Americans after 9 11. So is has been used that way. Scott, people who actually know about it who have spent their lives studying it say it will depress participation. Why isnt that an acceptable answer . Why suddenly after 50, 60, what am i saying, 65, almost 70 years, why is this up for addition now . Why is donald trump adding it now . It is absolutely political. If youre not sure, defer to the officials who do care and are sure. Can i ask you this, scott, let me find this, in the last segment, i read that, here we go. The president wants it, this was sent out from an email from the President Trumps Reelection Committee saying the president wants a 2020 United States census to ask people whether or not they were citizens. 19 attorneys general said they will fight the president if he dares to ask people if theyre citizens. He wants to know if youre on his side. If its not political, why is his reelection why are his reelection folks asking for it to be on the citizenship form and asking potential voters that . Well, to look at this through the lens of a political analyst, which i am, i would say frankly this is an 80 20 issue. If you ask most americans would it be important for the government to find out the condition of citizenship of its population, most folks would say i dont know what the big trouble would be. Yes, i recognize there will be some people that argue against it. This is one of those issues youre missing my point. Its not coming from the white house or the government. Its not coming from the census folks. It is coming from the census it is coming from his Reelection Committee. Well, look, every Politicians Campaign committees communicate about every official action they take. Am i surprised his campaign is talking what theyre doing in the white house in no, im not surprised about that at all. Again, i think frankly, if you polled this, if you did, i bet youre going to find a wide disparity of americans that say i dont see what the big deal is. That means a lot of americans dont understand our constitution, scott, which is a sad fact. But it might be true that they would support it, but that would mean they didnt understand that the founders said, explicitly set out, this was about the actual numeration of persons living here, not citizens. Not legal status. Nothing else. Who lives here . Where do they live . And in our modern times, should they be represented by Political Representation . Yes, the answers always yes. What funding do they need . What programs . We know federal aid is distributed based on the census. So it is so political, it is so did i visive. Youre right, it probably does resonate with the president s base which is largely white and unfortunately, a lot of them are white nationalists and they like this. Dont misunderstand. I didnt say it resonates with his base. I think it resonates with most americans is my view. I appreciate it. Thank you so much. Well be right back. You ok there, kurt . Were about to move. Karate helps. Relieve some of the housebuying. Stress. At least you dont have to worry about homeowners insurance. Call geico. Geico. Helps with. Homeowners insurance . Been doing it for years. Im calling geico right now. Good idea get to know geico. And see how easy homeowners and renters insurance can be. 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